Please Explain How Daemons are Balanced?

[ElectricPaladin]

It's the warp storm table.

Ok, before I get into the details, I want to clarify: I AM NOT TRYING TO COMPLAIN. I'm actually hoping that someone who knows the game better than I can explain this to me - in part so I can just learn more stuff and in part so that I can stop getting so damned tilted when I see Daemons across the table from me.

That clarified...

It's the warp storm table.

The fact that Chaos Daemons have the power to reach out and tough my army no matter what I do, regardless of cover, or being in a vehicle, or anything, seems like an insane advantage. There is nothing I can do to prevent my opponent's army from potentially shafting me on every turn. No amount of tactics, or army composition, or anything has the power to offer me any kind of protection or insurance.

As far as I can tell, there is literally nothing else in the game that works this way. So, ok, Grey Knights are really good at close combat in certain situations. So, shoot them! So, the Tau can do a killer gunline. Deal with the overwatch hits and charge them! So the Eldar do whatever it is the Eldar do now (I don't own their new codex yet, due to having fallen off the Eldar wagon right before the new release and not having the budget to buy books until I need them). I'm sure there's something I can do about it.

But Daemons? The warp storm? I just don't get it.

It probably doesn't help that the times I've faced Daemons have been in odd environments - two highly scenario-based Kill Team games - and perhaps that makes the warp storm table seem like more of a threat than it is. And now I'm preparing to go against Daemons in a Cities of Death tournament, in which I might maneuver all game to come to grips with the *******s while their warp storm ignores cover and blows me off the table. Nevertheless, the warp storm table looks on paper like it should be terrifying, and so far that's been my experience of it.

And don't tell me that it can do as much harm as good. I've never seen that happen in actual play.

So, can someone who understands this game better explain to me how this is supposed to work? Am I getting tilted by a couple of bad games, or is this indeed a horribly unbalanced and killy mechanic?

Thanks for helping me to get this.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Orkz have similar methods of madness, with some of their Tech and the explanations of why stuff happens. Look to the Shokk Attack Gun table for reference, The Ork Weirdboy Psyker table has 1/2 good and 1/2 situational powers, etc... But, at the same time (including FW) they have the habit of causing a bit of un-wanted/warranted chaos on the tabletop. Deff-Rolla's, Red Paint Job,

All in all, i think your getting "tilted" by the possible inclinations of that special rule, vs it's actual effect on the game. Yes, there is a chance for something to go ever-so horribly wrong. That's just fluff meeting tabletop rules. It isn't something that is anger inducing, but more of an annoyance, and, "Oh, that's their shtick..."

Fluff wise, a pure demons army, or even a small one, would only appear when the storms gather strength (this would look like some apocalyptic event btw) and are able to be used as gateways into the material universe. (where the "Normal" galaxy is) Now, while being made of the Warp, the Demon forces aren't in control of it. Even their casters, like Tzeentch demons, only are able to manipulate it to a degree of success. The warp is as much a boon as a curse to any and all demons. It's destructive tendencies harbor no intentional bias. Demon forces have adapted to their specific alignment of the warp, and therefore when conditions are correct, they reap some benefit from it. (like the ability to not be wracked with destructive lighting bolts...) But the complete chaos of the matter shows in the shifting tides of the warp's nature. Which is why players must roll on the table, in both fantasy and 40k, to see where the warp is flopping about.

[isotope99]

You probably shouldn't be using the warp storm in kill team games, it is highly unbalanced in that scenario. Similarly in apocalypse it gets a bit stupid. I'd say anything under 1,000 or over 3,000 leave it at home.

I have found in the 10 games I've played at events that it does actually even out over time.

The 3 and 11 results are the worst offenders from a balance perspective in my opinion and should have been 2D6 rolls not 3D6. (If my opponent has a psyker I offer this as a house rule if they want it).

2 and 12 are rare enough to be disregarded and don't do as much damage/benefit as you might think.

4 and 10 (+1/-1 INV) have the biggest effect and can be devastating in the early game.

The other godstrike powers I haven't found to be that bad (in normal games). Sure you might get lucky and finish off a weakened squad cowering on an objective or send a tau unit fleeing off the board but not that often and praying for a good warp storm table when you're behind is part of the fun of playing as daemons.

[Deadlift]

You think daemons to be unbalanced lol, try kill team with 20 pink horrors. Every model counts as it's own unit. So each pink horror shoots 2d6 str 5 shots per turn. That ****s broken.

[Mozzamanx]

The Warpstorm isn't all that. Just think of it as the Daemon equivalent of ATSKNF, Orders, Battle Focus etc. It is our army-wide rule that offers some perks, for free, to distinguish us as an army. Except in our case it tends to be slightly more explosive and direct, but at the cost of being occasionally spiteful.

Fluffwise it has already been explained. Daemons need the Warp to bleed into reality if they have any hope of manifesting long enough and in large enough quantities for a fight. Unfortunately the Warp and reality don't mix very well and so you get them fighting for supremacy, and as the Warp dominates or recedes it will affect the Daemons proportionally.

Gamewise it goes a long way towards the Daemons otherwise-lacking shooting abilities. Daemons have very little ranged capability outside Witchfires and the Soulgrinder, so this is a mechanic to pad out a critical phase.
It also tends to be better for the Daemon player more than the opponent. 2-4 is bad for the Daemon, 10-12 for the opponent, while 5-9 hurts both but will usually do much more to the enemy. Since it provides 'free' ranged attacks that generally favour one side, it also means that your opponent will have to commit to the fight and cannot simply hide from the Daemons. If they attempt to do so, the Warpstorm would eventually kill the enemy before the Daemons and so it works as a catalyst to get armies moving.

As a final point, the Warpstorm does not completely Ignore Cover or transports and there are ways to mitigate the effects. The hard part is that you never know what it is going to do and so you never know if you *need* to be protecting yourself.

The Storm Abates can do significant damage to the entire Daemon army with no real mitigating factors
Punished by the Gods is devastating and stands an extremely good chance of killing a ~300pt monster, only defence is to take cheap Champions to randomise the roll
Warp Ebb is devastating with no mitigating factors, the Grimoire helps out but hardly fixes the issue
Storm of Fire ignores Cover, but deals light damage and will rarely do anything to transported units
Nurgle's Rot ignores Cover and deals stronger damage in smaller amounts. Worse for Marines but completely useless against transports
Dark Prince Thirsts ignores Cover and can potentially kill any unit. This one you do actually just need to suck up, not a lot you can do against it
Khorne's Wrath has the Barrage rule but otherwise allows cover. It is strong enough to bash transports but spacing your units will help a lot
Warp Surge is fantastic and normally the best result on the table. Just have to roll with it unfortunately
Possession swings between broken powerful, and utterly useless depending on your army. Probably the worst offender in terms of winning the game on a single roll. You have my sympathies here
Summoned is actually pretty mediocre for the double-6 roll and certainly is not worth the risk of table-wide instability.

[Denzark]

See, I think the 6th ed Daemons are bollocks. Quite rightly the screamer flamers got dialled back, but T3 Bloodletters and T4 Plague Bearers are rubbish. So I have never seen the Warp Storm table decisive, I think actually the power of the daemon waxes and wanes in quite a fluffy way.

[el_tigre]

I think the short answer is that it is an unbalanced, poorly thought out mechanic that was inserted in a desperate attempt to disguise the fact that GW simply didn't know what to do with daemons. Anything which doesn't take into consideration points values (how can it, not even being a special rule applied specificaly to entries from the daemon list, never mind their opponents?) should be a gimmick at best. To me it honestly feels like one of those experimental rulesets you used to get back in old WD, where it was meant for fun games between friends and not seriousley considered suitable for everyday gaming. I can't help but wonder what terrible rules were playtested then abandoned if this is what they settled on, but have found that the table is best just ignored completely, having too great a chance of wildly affecting the game in either players favour with no real chance of mitigating tactics beyond fateweaver. If I hadn't paid £30 for the book I would have cut the page out and burned it by now.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I've only played about 5 games with my Slaaneshi Deamons since 6th, so I'm not i a good spot to comment.
But it mostly seems a bit meh.
When you hold it up next to Chapter Traits, Orders or TSKNF it's not very good.
Even the Waaagh and Mob Rule mechanics are more usefully impacting on an army overall.
All in all it has surpirisingly little in-game impact compared to a lot of armies "character USRS".

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Balance is a delusion.

[ElectricPaladin]

Balance is a delusion.

I would argue that perfect balance is a delusion, but a certain degree of balance is required to create a base level of playability. I'm not asking for my army to be 100%, no arguments, no flaws, just as good as everything else. I just don't want it to be pasted.

Anyway, from what I'm reading it looks like my Daemon opponent got a bit lucky, our campaign organizer made a mistake by allowing the warp storm table in the Kill Team campaign, and I shouldn't have nearly as much trouble from it in the Cities of Death games.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Yeah, it's really not all that. In fact it can HORRIBLY screw you as the deamon player.

[SaveModifier]

its balanced becuase most of the time its not that good and sometimes its terrible. Its chaotic. as in chaos.

[DarkLink]

It's balanced, it's just a terrible game mechanic. Until you take Fateweaver, and then it's both broken and a terrible game mechanic.

[SaveModifier]

It's balanced, it's just a terrible game mechanic. Until you take Fateweaver, and then it's both broken and a terrible game mechanic.

not everything random, fun and fluffy is terrible you know.

[eldargal]

I don't play daemons but I love it, it's just such a characterful addition. If winning is so important you can't laugh off something random happening when fighting daemons I think you need to re-examine why you play. Or just, you know, house rule it. I actually think the whole Daemons book is like that, it's just so suitably Chaotic.:)

[Unreality179]

I don't play daemons but I love it, it's just such a characterful addition. If winning is so important you can't laugh off something random happening when fighting daemons I think you need to re-examine why you play. Or just, you know, house rule it. I actually think the whole Daemons book is like that, it's just so suitably Chaotic.:)

Yeah, as a Chaos Daemon player who's just getting into the game, I love it. They're my first army. Anyways, I'm not too worried about winning 100% of the time. I'm much more into the fluff than anything else. I am building a consistent, winning list, but I don't power game, and I don't care if the Warp Storm table screws me! All that matters is that it screws my opponent just as often, haha. It's a fluffy yet powerful addition to our codex, and I like it.

[SaveModifier]

Yeah, as a Chaos Daemon player who's just getting into the game, I love it. They're my first army. Anyways, I'm not too worried about winning 100% of the time. I'm much more into the fluff than anything else. I am building a consistent, winning list, but I don't power game, and I don't care if the Warp Storm table screws me! All that matters is that it screws my opponent just as often, haha. It's a fluffy yet powerful addition to our codex, and I like it.

Well done for having an excellent attitude to this hobby you're starting out on! Stay thinking like that and you'll find it rewarding and you'll have a ton of fun

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Its chaotic. as in chaos.
something random happening...it's just so suitably Chaotic.:)
Never gotten this whole "Chaos = lolrandom" idea. Daemons are about a visual representation of trimmed down religious sins, depicted in Blanche/Giger/Lovecraft/etc-type style. Just because chaos is equated to random in a mathematical context doesn't mean Daemons should be. That's why there isn't a Bloodletter with a kettle for a face.

[eldargal]

Chaos is exactly that though, it's chaotic. A good way of representing that on the battlefield in a D6 based system is with a random chart like this one. I think you're taking a fairly narrow view of what Daemons are but that's a discussion for the Background section.:)

[SaveModifier]

Never gotten this whole "Chaos = lolrandom" idea. Daemons are about a visual representation of trimmed down religious sins, depicted in Blanche/Giger/Lovecraft/etc-type style. Just because chaos is equated to random in a mathematical context doesn't mean Daemons should be. That's why there isn't a Bloodletter with a kettle for a face.

And its why all the options on the Warp Storm table are related to deamonic warp energy spewing onto the battlefield in varies ways and none of the options are "the enemies flyer turns into a contempletitive blue whale" or anything completly out of the universe.

Daemons are chaotic, they wax and wane, sometimes their Gods support them in their endevors more than at other times, sometimes the very essence of the warp leaks out in places where they gather on the material plane and that has different effects. the table is a decent system to show that these things happen in the fluff, without being too over the top and ruining the fun too much for either player.

Its a game where you have to laugh and shrug when your favourite unit gets the raw essence of nurgle vomitted up on them, taking them out of the fight when you weren't expecting it, these things happen when you factor the warp in to a battle, its is a mechanic representing that you can't depend on the fickle and caprisious nature of the warp!

[Unreality179]

Well done for having an excellent attitude to this hobby you're starting out on! Stay thinking like that and you'll find it rewarding and you'll have a ton of fun

Thanks man. I definitely will stay thinking this way. Now, I'm off to buy more models. :)

[DWest]

Also, keep in mind that the Necron SC, Imotekh the Stormlord, does almost the same thing as the Warp Storm table, but on command. For me, it's like Orks -- if you're not comfortable with having the possibility of RNG playing tennis with your hopes of victory, then they're not the army for you.

As for playing against Daemons, yes the Warp Storm table can suck. However, there's also (as a random sampling):
-Space Wolves casting Jaws on you 4 times in one turn (2 HQ slots x 2 choices per HQ) and watching half your army fall off the table and die.
-Tyranids dropping Doom of Malan'tai into your backfield.
-Space Marine Scout Bikers making all your terrain Dangerous (this is especially bad, because then it's not your opponent's good luck killing you, it's your own *bad* luck killing you)
-Creed and the Amazing Outflanking Leman Russ Squadron (or Warlord Titan if you're playing Apoc)

There's a lot of things that can make a game turn out really bad, really quickly. Daemons is just a little less straightforward, which makes it more annoying. On the other side of the equation, though, most of the Psykers available to Daemons are Ld 8, which makes getting powers to go off a bit more chancy. There are checks and balances present, if not perfectly well done.

[Nabterayl]

In terms of more literal balance, though ... 2 and 3 are really bad for the daemon player. 11 and 12 are really good for the daemon player. These two have the exact same chance of occurring. Similarly, 4 is really bad, but 10 is really good; also identical odds. 5, 6, 8, and 9 generally favor the daemon player, it's true. What they boil down to, though, is not very good artillery in an army list that has fairly terrible shooting.

[DarkLink]

not everything random, fun and fluffy is terrible you know.

Oh, I'm sure there's a few examples out there. I just can't think of any.

Actually, i take that back. GK Rad grenades. They're overpowered, but the level of power is very even. They should certainly be toned down a lot, but if they just hit one unit or only models engaged at the start of combat, and the results were a little weaker, then yes, it's a pretty good random result.

[Nabterayl]

... psychotroke grenades?

EDIT: In my opinion, the warp storm table does a fine job in terms of the evenness of the table. Only the four god-themed results slant it in the daemon player's direction, and I think that's fine, given that all of them rely on getting a 6 and then making another unlikely roll, followed by a third, easier roll, to do any appreciable damage. The complaints about it that I think are the most valid are just that it adds an appreciable amount of time to the turn that is highly unlikely to result in anything.

[SaveModifier]

Oh, I'm sure there's a few examples out there. I just can't think of any.

Actually, i take that back. GK Rad grenades. They're overpowered, but the level of power is very even. They should certainly be toned down a lot, but if they just hit one unit or only models engaged at the start of combat, and the results were a little weaker, then yes, it's a pretty good random result.

Well, I mean, you've yet to explain exactly why the Warp Storm table is "terrible", you've just announced that it is and what, we're supposed to tear up the books as the god of game mechanics has spoken from on high?

[Nabterayl]

Ooh, let me guess! I want to see if I have DarkLink's taste in gaming pegged correctly.

My guess is that DarkLink dislikes it because:

He thinks it's an awful lot of dice rolling (potentially, roll once for the table, then once for at least each enemy unit, then again for scatter for each enemy unit, then again to wound each enemy unit, then again for saves) for not a lot of impact, and
He simply doesn't like mechanics that can't be mitigated by army composition and/or movement.

[Renegade]

Ooh, let me guess! I want to see if I have DarkLink's taste in gaming pegged correctly.

My guess is that DarkLink dislikes it because:

He thinks it's an awful lot of dice rolling (potentially, roll once for the table, then once for at least each enemy unit, then again for scatter for each enemy unit, then again to wound each enemy unit, then again for saves) for not a lot of impact, and
He simply doesn't like mechanics that can't be mitigated by army composition and/or movement.

QFT

Not found a problem with it, but then I play a fairly fluffy IG list. When one builds a list with mathhammer I suppose Daemons could be quite annoying.

Less mathhammer 40K and more Warhammer 40K makes for games that the rules are made for.

[ElectricPaladin]

Not found a problem with it, but then I play a fairly fluffy IG list. When one builds a list with mathhammer I suppose Daemons could be quite annoying.

Less mathhammer 40K and more Warhammer 40K makes for games that the rules are made for.

What I found unfun about the Daemons wasn't mathhammer. I wasn't upset that my stuff didn't work "as designed." I was upset because I had built a balanced list and it was wiped off the board very quickly by a couple of lucky rolls, and there was nothing I could do about it. I don't mind losing, but it was frustrating. Humiliating, even. I like to win, I like to lose, but most of all I like to play. I feel like in that game, I didn't get to play. I got to set up my models and then pack them away again. I challenge anyone to say that they have ever had that experience be fun and rewarding and not leave them questioning - at least a little - if the game systems that led to that experience are great ideas.

That said, it sounds like a bad combination of epically good luck on my opponent's part and the fact that our Campaign Organizer probably shouldn't have been using the warp storm table in that particular variant.

[Nabterayl]

Well, it's not a question of mathhammer. As DL has said, in his opinion the table is balanced - meaning, he has no mathhammer problem with it.

The question, I think, is one of control. How much control do you want to have? Obviously we all want to give up some control - for instance, nobody's objecting to the idea of needing to roll to hit, roll to wound, and roll to kill, but all three of those rolls surrender player control. This is a game in which you can attack a mob of gretchin in the rear with a squad of assault terminators and have every one of them die to Overwatch, or in which a greater daemon of the god of dueling can fail to kill a human being over ten rounds of combat, and most people are fine with that.

The warp storm table makes you give up more control, both as the daemon player and as an opponent. You can't control it (even with Fateweaver, you can't control it very much), and there are not that many senses in which you can play its odds. You know that there's a 50% chance that there's a 17% chance that each of your opponent's units is going to be subject to either a weak or an inaccurate shooting attack, but how do you respond to that, tactically? When would you say to yourself, for instance, "I am going to remain in these woods for this turn because I want to give my warp storm artillery one more chance to soften up the enemy before I make my move?"

The question is just how much control you are okay with giving up, and from what I can tell DarkLink simply doesn't think it's fun to give up very much control. There's nothing wrong or right about that, and I don't think it's fair to call it a taste dictated by how much you love fluff. Personally, I suspect it has to do with what you think the skill of the game expressed is. For instance, I'm pretty sure my tolerance for giving up control is greater than DarkLink's. I am totally fine with finding out that my entire battle plan is screwed because those woods just ate an entire mob of boyz. The reason I am fine with this is not because I consider it fluffy that my orks would blunder into a hostile wood and not have any inkling until it's way too late (frankly, that doesn't seem especially fluffy to me at all), but because I consider the skill of the game to be obtaining the best possible outcome given unfavorable and unpredictable circumstances.

To me, that is the point - not to win, but to see how favorable an outcome I can force (whether that be a win or a loss) given the circumstances, even if my opponent's advantage was not of his own design. But it's hardly crazy talk, or WAAC talk, to see the point of the game as something else. For instance, what if you thought the point of the game was to see how favorable an outcome you can force (whether that be a win or a loss) given your opponent's choices? That small change can make the warp storm table a negative effect on the game, and it has nothing to do with whether you're a precious tender fluff bunny or a slavering mathhammer-wielding man-troll, you know?

[Renegade]

What I found unfun about the Daemons wasn't mathhammer. I wasn't upset that my stuff didn't work "as designed." I was upset because I had built a balanced list and it was wiped off the board very quickly by a couple of lucky rolls, and there was nothing I could do about it. I don't mind losing, but it was frustrating. Humiliating, even. I like to win, I like to lose, but most of all I like to play. I feel like in that game, I didn't get to play. I got to set up my models and then pack them away again. I challenge anyone to say that they have ever had that experience be fun and rewarding and not leave them questioning - at least a little - if the game systems that led to that experience are great ideas.

That said, it sounds like a bad combination of epically good luck on my opponent's part and the fact that our Campaign Organizer probably shouldn't have been using the warp storm table in that particular variant.

If I remember right, you were playing a variant of the game that may not be balanced to the warp storm, that does not relate to the rule in normal play. I have no idea how it will work out in Cities of Death either, another variant rule set.

That kind of crap happens, roll with it and learn from it, it's just a game.

[Renegade]

Well, it's not a question of mathhammer. As DL has said, in his opinion the table is balanced - meaning, he has no mathhammer problem with it.

The question, I think, is one of control. How much control do you want to have? Obviously we all want to give up some control - for instance, nobody's objecting to the idea of needing to roll to hit, roll to wound, and roll to kill, but all three of those rolls surrender player control. This is a game in which you can attack a mob of gretchin in the rear with a squad of assault terminators and have every one of them die to Overwatch, or in which a greater daemon of the god of dueling can fail to kill a human being over ten rounds of combat, and most people are fine with that.

The warp storm table makes you give up more control, both as the daemon player and as an opponent. You can't control it (even with Fateweaver, you can't control it very much), and there are not that many senses in which you can play its odds. You know that there's a 50% chance that there's a 17% chance that each of your opponent's units is going to be subject to either a weak or an inaccurate shooting attack, but how do you respond to that, tactically? When would you say to yourself, for instance, "I am going to remain in these woods for this turn because I want to give my warp storm artillery one more chance to soften up the enemy before I make my move?"

The question is just how much control you are okay with giving up, and from what I can tell DarkLink simply doesn't think it's fun to give up very much control. There's nothing wrong or right about that, and I don't think it's fair to call it a taste dictated by how much you love fluff. Personally, I suspect it has to do with what you think the skill of the game expressed is. For instance, I'm pretty sure my tolerance for giving up control is greater than DarkLink's. I am totally fine with finding out that my entire battle plan is screwed because those woods just ate an entire mob of boyz. The reason I am fine with this is not because I consider it fluffy that my orks would blunder into a hostile wood and not have any inkling until it's way too late (frankly, that doesn't seem especially fluffy to me at all), but because I consider the skill of the game to be obtaining the best possible outcome given unfavorable and unpredictable circumstances.

To me, that is the point - not to win, but to see how favorable an outcome I can force (whether that be a win or a loss) given the circumstances, even if my opponent's advantage was not of his own design. But it's hardly crazy talk, or WAAC talk, to see the point of the game as something else. For instance, what if you thought the point of the game was to see how favorable an outcome you can force (whether that be a win or a loss) given your opponent's choices? That small change can make the warp storm table a negative effect on the game, and it has nothing to do with whether you're a precious tender fluff bunny or a slavering mathhammer-wielding man-troll, you know?

One thing you forget to comment on, and that is the daemon player that has chosen that army and is quite happy with the amount of control lost.

There are plenty of army specific rules that are griped about, and this rule requires a lot of luck of the dice rolls as it could quite easily have been the daemon player setting up just to pack up, yet very few daemon player tend to complain about it.

The game it played by two people agreeing to abide by a rule set, it is not all about what DL thinks or yourself, and such thinking leads to both sides being open to concessions. Perhaps DL or yourself would be happy to lose a large chunk of your army specific rules in exchange for the daemon player giving up warp storm.

[DWest]

Also, let me check one thing: EP, you said this happened in a Kill Team game. Now is that the 4th ed version, where you have 200 points of models and no real FOC or squad coherency? If so, then the TO definitely should have disallowed the Warp Storm table.

This is the other problem inherent in the 40k ruleset -- scalability. Once you get below 1k, maybe 750 at bare minimum, certain things can end up severely distorting the balance of play. You can, as an example, play Blood Angels at 750, and fit 2x 5 man assault squads w/ 2 flamers each, 2 Land Raiders, and a Librarian. A lot of armies are going to be hard pressed to handle that at that points level. To their credit, the team who did the 4th ed missions recognized some of those problems and put restrictions into the old Kill Team and Combat Patrol missions to deal with bad scaling. Anybody who is dusting those missions off for play today probably should take a careful look at the current books and make appropriate changes (you can squeeze an Ork Dakkajet or Space Marine Stormtalon, or worse a Necron Night Croissant into a Combat Mission list, for example, and that's only going to be fun for 1 of the 2 people at the table!)

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Also, keep in mind that the Necron SC, Imotekh the Stormlord, does almost the same thing as the Warp Storm table, but on command. For me, it's like Orks -- if you're not comfortable with having the possibility of RNG playing tennis with your hopes of victory, then they're not the army for you.

As for playing against Daemons, yes the Warp Storm table can suck. However, there's also (as a random sampling):
-Space Wolves casting Jaws on you 4 times in one turn (2 HQ slots x 2 choices per HQ) and watching half your army fall off the table and die.
-Tyranids dropping Doom of Malan'tai into your backfield.
-Space Marine Scout Bikers making all your terrain Dangerous (this is especially bad, because then it's not your opponent's good luck killing you, it's your own *bad* luck killing you)
-Creed and the Amazing Outflanking Leman Russ Squadron (or Warlord Titan if you're playing Apoc)The problem there's the agency of the players, I think. In each of those examples that attacking player has to make a careful decision of where and how to apply those, and the defending player knows they're coming, and acts to defend against.

The attacker chooses how to approach, the defender chooses how to counter. No such option with the Warp Storm table, though, thus making it dull.

[Nabterayl]

One thing you forget to comment on, and that is the daemon player that has chosen that army and is quite happy with the amount of control lost.
Well, no, the daemon player has accepted that loss of control. Whether they're happy about that specific element of their codex is unknown.


The game it played by two people agreeing to abide by a rule set, it is not all about what DL thinks or yourself, and such thinking leads to both sides being open to concessions. Perhaps DL or yourself would be happy to lose a large chunk of your army specific rules in exchange for the daemon player giving up warp storm.
My dear fellow, pray remind yourself that (i) DarkLink is a well-known player of Grey Knights, who are profoundly unlikely to be discomfited by opposing a daemon army with or without the warp storm table, (ii) I am attempting to explain why somebody might think that the warp storm table is balanced but un-fun (as DarkLink does), and (iii) nobody has suggested that the daemon army ought to be without some sort of compensation for its conspicuous lack of traditional ranged weaponry. I do not appreciate your implication that my posts are an attempt to demonstrate that the game ought to conform to my opinions of what is fun, or to my guesses as to DarkLink's opinions of what is fun.

[DarkLink]

Ooh, let me guess! I want to see if I have DarkLink's taste in gaming pegged correctly.

My guess is that DarkLink dislikes it because:

He thinks it's an awful lot of dice rolling (potentially, roll once for the table, then once for at least each enemy unit, then again for scatter for each enemy unit, then again to wound each enemy unit, then again for saves) for not a lot of impact, and
He simply doesn't like mechanics that can't be mitigated by army composition and/or movement.

Also, there's no actual gameplay involved. You're not making a tactical decision or even a calculated gamble like with deciding to risk an 8" charge vs overwatch. You just roll dice, and bam, suddenly one player or another has a massive advantage. I saw a game where one player had both of his Librarians turn into Tzeentch Heralds, and if he'd had a third psyker the daemon player would have had a third herald as well.

[ElectricPaladin]

Also, there's no actual gameplay involved. You're not making a tactical decision or even a calculated gamble like with deciding to risk an 8" charge vs overwatch. You just roll dice, and bam, suddenly one player or another has a massive advantage. I saw a game where one player had both of his Librarians turn into Tzeentch Heralds, and if he'd had a third psyker the daemon player would have had a third herald as well.

Bingo. I want to win or lose because I outplay or was outplayed, not because I got trolled by a random table!

[Nabterayl]

Also, there's no actual gameplay involved. You're not making a tactical decision or even a calculated gamble like with deciding to risk an 8" charge vs overwatch. You just roll dice, and bam, suddenly one player or another has a massive advantage. I saw a game where one player had both of his Librarians turn into Tzeentch Heralds, and if he'd had a third psyker the daemon player would have had a third herald as well.


Bingo. I want to win or lose because I outplay or was outplayed, not because I got trolled by a random table!

I have to admit I don't quite agree that there's no gameplay involved ... or at least I am sympathetic to the view that you are drawing a pretty arbitrary distinction. Can you help me figure out what would feel like gameplay?

As a daemon player, you've essentially bought (baked into the cost of your primary detachment) off-board artillery. It is unreliable (50% chance to get it on any given turn) and there is no guarantee what type or caliber of fire support you will get, it is highly inaccurate, and there is the risk of friendly fire, but that's what it is. You have a 50% chance to get some kind of off-board fire support that will target the enemy's entire army (albeit with phenomenally low accuracy). So ... query - what would make that feel like gameplay? If you got to pick which enemy units your phenomenally inaccurate artillery targeted (presumably it would not be quite so phenomenally inaccurate)? If you got to pick the type of guns that were firing in support?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I have to admit I don't quite agree that there's no gameplay involved ... or at least I am sympathetic to the view that you are drawing a pretty arbitrary distinction. Can you help me figure out what would feel like gameplay?

As a daemon player, you've essentially bought (baked into the cost of your primary detachment) off-board artillery. It is unreliable (50% chance to get it on any given turn) and there is no guarantee what type or caliber of fire support you will get, it is highly inaccurate, and there is the risk of friendly fire, but that's what it is. You have a 50% chance to get some kind of off-board fire support that will target the enemy's entire army (albeit with phenomenally low accuracy). So ... query - what would make that feel like gameplay? If you got to pick which enemy units your phenomenally inaccurate artillery targeted (presumably it would not be quite so phenomenally inaccurate)? If you got to pick the type of guns that were firing in support?"No gameplay involved" means that players aren't getting to make meaningful decisions other than "play Daemons" or "not play Daemons". For instance, let's compare it to Grey Knights' off-board artillery (orbital strikes). The player chooses how many to purchase, and which models are the spotters. They choose how these spotters are moved/deployed etc, and when to activate them. The opponent makes choices of how to counter these actions and minimize damage. The Warpstorm table doesn't offer choices like this - it's more suitable for a specific scenario/mission than as a ball-and-chain always locked to the army.

[DarkLink]

That was Daemonhunters.

Chapter Tactics is a better example, I think. You have to pick one, and there are benefits and drawbacks in the form of opportunity costs involved. The Warp Storm table, on the other hand, is basically just playing craps.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

That was Daemonhunters.Still present in the Orbital Strike relays available to GK/Inqs.

[ElectricPaladin]

"No gameplay involved" means that players aren't getting to make meaningful decisions other than "play Daemons" or "not play Daemons". For instance, let's compare it to Grey Knights' off-board artillery (orbital strikes). The player chooses how many to purchase, and which models are the spotters. They choose how these spotters are moved/deployed etc, and when to activate them. The opponent makes choices of how to counter these actions and minimize damage. The Warpstorm table doesn't offer choices like this - it's more suitable for a specific scenario/mission than as a ball-and-chain always locked to the army.

Bingo.

So, let's say I want to prevent my fire warriors from taking fire from two different targets with weapons I want to avoid. I have a number of options. I can maneuver my troops this way, or I can maneuver them that way. I can employ the resources of my various sources of supporting fire to attempt to harm one - or even both, if I feel lucky - of your units to the point that they can't harm my fire warriors. Or I can try to provide you with another target that scares you more. I have options.

Warp storm just... happens. It's this thing that generally favors the Daemon player that I can't do anything about in any circumstances. I can't control for it. I can't maneuver around it. If it gets lucky, I'll suffer. If I get lucky, I won't. It's boring and it's frustrating.

[silashand]

I think the short answer is that it is an unbalanced, poorly thought out mechanic that was inserted in a desperate attempt to disguise the fact that GW simply didn't know what to do with daemons. Anything which doesn't take into consideration points values (how can it, not even being a special rule applied specificaly to entries from the daemon list, never mind their opponents?) should be a gimmick at best. To me it honestly feels like one of those experimental rulesets you used to get back in old WD, where it was meant for fun games between friends and not seriousley considered suitable for everyday gaming. I can't help but wonder what terrible rules were playtested then abandoned if this is what they settled on, but have found that the table is best just ignored completely, having too great a chance of wildly affecting the game in either players favour with no real chance of mitigating tactics beyond fateweaver. If I hadn't paid £30 for the book I would have cut the page out and burned it by now.

Could not have said it better.

[Nabterayl]

Bingo.

So, let's say I want to prevent my fire warriors from taking fire from two different targets with weapons I want to avoid. I have a number of options. I can maneuver my troops this way, or I can maneuver them that way. I can employ the resources of my various sources of supporting fire to attempt to harm one - or even both, if I feel lucky - of your units to the point that they can't harm my fire warriors. Or I can try to provide you with another target that scares you more. I have options.

Warp storm just... happens. It's this thing that generally favors the Daemon player that I can't do anything about in any circumstances. I can't control for it. I can't maneuver around it. If it gets lucky, I'll suffer. If I get lucky, I won't. It's boring and it's frustrating.
So ... I do understand what you're saying, and while I don't personally mind the warp storm table, I also don't actually like it. Since it isn't going anywhere, though, in an effort to offer some constructive advice, you can think about the following:

The Storm Abates, Punished by the Gods, and Warp Ebb are all good for you, so there's no need to worry about mitigating those.
Storm of Fire is AP5 and a large blast, so you mitigate that the same way you mitigate Whirlwind strikes - don't bunch up, stick with 4+ armor or better when possible.
The Dark Prince Thirsts is AP-, so you can mitigate that with armor.
Khorne's Wrath doesn't Ignore Cover, so you can mitigate that with cover.
All four of the "artillery" attacks only strike unengaged units, so you can mitigate them all by being in CC.
Daemonic Possession is obviously only relevant if you have non-vehicle psykers.
If the enemy has a warlord who is a Lord of Unreality, you can mitigate the entire table by killing the warlord.
I know that isn't much, and the most conservative mitigation strategy (spread out, carry good armor, and stick to area terrain) can be crippling if you stick to it too religiously ... just trying to be constructive. On the other hand, to be fair, only Rot, Glorious Rot (14% chance), Warp Surge (8% chance), and Summoned from the Warp (3% chance) are things you can do nothing about (unless you count staying in close combat as much as possible a mitigation strategy, which it isn't for all armies).

[DarkLink]

That's well and good, but that doesn't change the fact that there is always a not-insignificant chance for a string of particular dice rolls to auto-lose the game for one player or the other. And with Fateweaver, that chance only goes up in favor of the Daemon player. And holy crap, do daemon turns take so long thanks to the sheer amount of random bookkeeping you have to do.


Still present in the Orbital Strike relays available to GK/Inqs.

But they're mechanically extremely different.

[biffster666]

That's well and good, but that doesn't change the fact that there is always a not-insignificant chance for a string of particular dice rolls to auto-lose the game for one player or the other.

So much truth in that statement. You can have the best strat, everything is where it needs to be at the right time, get all your reserves turn two, blah blah blah...if you're rolling mostly 1-3 and your opponent is rolling mostly 4-6 you will almost always lose. That's why I always try to push everything towards the dice being as little of a factor as possible, but they can still ruin everything. I dig it though, look throughout history and you will find plenty of examples of 'luck' playing a factor in who wins or loses any given battle. WWII has plenty of examples on both sides, Pearl Harbor and Midway being perfect examples.

[eldargal]

If you think it's an auto-lose situation, re-roll or house rule it, problem solved. Ironic that people bring up player agency as a problem with it while unable to show any themselves.

[madlants]

So I just thought of an interesting idea for a house rule to mitigate this a little without getting rid of Warpstorm table. It basically works like this:
Each turn, when the result is rolled on the Warpstorm table, either player (Daemon or opponent) may choose to have a psyker they control take a psychic test at a challenge rating of 2D6(Roll 2D6 and the result on the dice is what the psyker must pass). If the psyker passes the psychic test, the result on the Warpstorm table must be re-rolled. If the psyker fails the test, the first Warpstorm result stands and he takes D3 wounds with no armor saves of any kind allowed. The second result from the Warpstorm table may not be re-rolled for any reason.
This represents the psyker feeling the ebb and flow of the Warpstorm and trying to manipulate it to his favor, at great personal risk.
The goal here obviously isn't to reduce die rolls (since it would increase them), or remove chance, but to give the players options. Now you can attempt to re-roll a potentially game breaking table roll at the risk of losing your psyker. I feel like this would add more of an element of choice and strategy.
Whaddaya think? Am I on to something or is it completely goofy?:o

[Sly]

"I have to admit I don't quite agree that there's no gameplay involved ... or at least I am sympathetic to the view that you are drawing a pretty arbitrary distinction. Can you help me figure out what would feel like gameplay?"

If a player's tactics during the game can affect the likelihood of an event occurring, it's affected by gameplay. If the tactics cannot, then it's purely random rolls. I can affect my shooting effectiveness with better moves, or the opponents by better moves or by killing the right enemy models. I cannot do anything to prevent my HQ from being Possessed.

Tau may Ignore Cover with many weapons, but I can stay out of range, or kill the markerlight units, or engage the Broadsides in CC. Hard to do, perhaps, but I have a tactic that can stop the Tau units that ignore the cover rules... there is no tactic that will stop Warp Storm effects, and this is why many players feel that the Warp Storm effects are unaffected by gameplay.

[chicop76]

As a Daemon player who has been playing daemons since 4.5 I would say it's not a balanced book at all. The only army out there that can some what deal with them are very shooty armies.

The main problem is heavy flying MC's and hounds that can assault turn one or be all in your deployment with a possible +2 invulnerable save. heck the ease of getting +2 invulnerable saves for a unit is silly easy. Let's not mention that you can get +2 re rollable saves on some models.

than it's the only army that have 8 psychic tables to pool powers from for a total of 47 possible powers that the army can pool from.

Not to mention it's the only army the hands out ap 2 melee weapons that strike at intiative order like candy, on top of having really strong melee troops and monsters.

Oh They can be a very heavily shooty army if it chooses to be so. Tzeentch can lay down enough strength 6 shots to make possible fnp roll bonuses seem like a pipe dream.

than you have the warp storm table. The table itself rarly really hurts the daemon player. for example if i played a mono army only 4 out of 10 results actually hurt them. Leaving 6 out of 10 results to rain death against your opponent.

With all that being said the warp storm table without Fateweaver does little to hurt a mixed daemon force and little to hurt an enemy list that is runnong few units. however against Tau and guard who sometimes run 20+ units for example the table can do some damage. throw in big bird it becomes very annoying.

Grav guns are now a liability to marines since most daemons laugh at them since they have invulnerable saves instead of regular saves. taking a lot of grav weapons can mean an easy victory vs a daemon army.

Luckly psychic powers hit you for about 25 points a pop which really help tone done the psychic abuse. With 350 point princes it also tones down some abuse.

however I am debating on trying a winged list without upgrades. by not taking powers or gifts i can save about 425 points to spend into 40 more daemonettes for example or about 30 hounds.

[The Sovereign]

As a mono-Tzeentch player whose attacks all have a strong probability of giving my opponents' units stackable Feel No Pain, no, I don't feel the Warp Storm table is too cheesy, thankyouverymuch.

[Anggul]

The only result I think is absolutely stupid is the 'possession' result, because it just removes any psyker with ease and also gives them a free HQ.

Most of the results aren't that big a deal, but that one is ridiculous. 'Oh look, I rolled this so your expensive Hive Tyrant/Tervigon/Farseer/Sorcerer/whatever is almost certainly gone and I get a killy HQ as well.' It isn't even an opposed Ld check+Mastery Level against the Herald attempting the possession like it should be, it's just 'you're probably going to fail this test and potentially lose a really expensive guy with pretty much no say in the matter.

The other results aren't as devastating and it doesn't really matter that you get no say in them. That one most certainly does, and it's the one result that I really think should be removed. Actually the Daemon equivalent should be removed too. You shouldn't be forced into blowing points on loads of squad leaders in the hope that your Bloodthirster won't just randomly vanish. So yeah, remove those two results and replace them with something more reasonable and you've got yourself a much better table.

[DarkLink]

Houseruling isn't always a practical solution, because it requires opponent's consent. And tournaments don't really do houserules, so neither do most competitive players most of the time. So a fairly large portion of the populace sticks to official rules. Houseruling something as major as the warp storm table isn't always practical.


"I have to admit I don't quite agree that there's no gameplay involved ... or at least I am sympathetic to the view that you are drawing a pretty arbitrary distinction. Can you help me figure out what would feel like gameplay?"

If a player's tactics during the game can affect the likelihood of an event occurring, it's affected by gameplay. If the tactics cannot, then it's purely random rolls. I can affect my shooting effectiveness with better moves, or the opponents by better moves or by killing the right enemy models. I cannot do anything to prevent my HQ from being Possessed.

Tau may Ignore Cover with many weapons, but I can stay out of range, or kill the markerlight units, or engage the Broadsides in CC. Hard to do, perhaps, but I have a tactic that can stop the Tau units that ignore the cover rules... there is no tactic that will stop Warp Storm effects, and this is why many players feel that the Warp Storm effects are unaffected by gameplay.

Similarly, rolling to hit might be random, but I can take a psyker with Prescience, or I can be careful with target priority, or I can focus my fire on one unit, as needed to make up for the potential for bad rolls. I still might not do as much damage as I "should", but I can still adapt my strategy as needed. But if my opponent rolls on the warp storm table and is like, 'I got X, your psyker auto-dies and I gain a free psyker of my own', then all I can really do is say 'screw you Phil Kelly'.

[chicop76]

Personally I don't think that the warp storm table is that over powered. Even with Fateweaver the table haven't been that much of a game changer for me. It has helped me several times and has nuked me as well.

For example it has wiped out whole squads before, but with my luck I needed that squad there so I wouldn't had gotten shot up in the open. I would had charged the unit with a squad and either would had been tied in combat or consolidated into terrain.

Thinking about it more the only game changer thus far has been the plus one to invulnerable saves, before Fateweaver I rarely even got that power. With Fateweaver I usually get it twice a game, either re rolling one die or re rolling both die. I have rolled every result besides turning psykers into heralds, when I do roll it I am never facing a psyker or the the roll that allows for extra daemons to appear on the board. Unless you want to count Riftbringer which does the same thing.

The complaints I get from my army is these factors.
#1 units with 2 plus invulnerable saves. Either my hounds or daemonettes have really good buffs on them. With Divination powers and the warpstorm table it's not hard to spread around two plus invulnerable saving love. Trust me when I say hounds or daemonettes with two plus invulnerable saves are a pain.

A good example would be one game I had only gave the daemonettes two plus invulnerable saves or three plis invulnerable saves with an upgrade character with an ap 2 strength 4 weapon and the unit was able to kill 10 plague bearers, 30 plague marines, and a Bloodthirster by themselves almost.

Another good example is my hounds killing around 30 plus blood angel assault marines, it did help they had endurance on them as well.

#2 the second most complaint is the amount of psychic powers you can throw around. No other army can field a huge diversity of powers like Daemons can. For example my hounds can have prescience, endurance, plus four invulnerable, fire shield, invisibility on them all at once. To be honest about a good portion of my games they are usually heavly buffed. Firr shield is rare, but endurance with at least four rolls is not that uncommon or divination with atleast 4 rolls as well. Invisibility depending on if I rolled well on biomancy cand range from 1-4 rolls usually. Only psychic table I am not rolling on is telekinesis.

If I decide to go the flying circus route with mono Tzeentch than seeing as princes are master 3, the Loc is master 3, and Fateweaver is master 4 that is 16 powers that can be cast in one turn on top of vector striking and everything else.

If you go mono Tzeentch I would say a non herald list is not that threatening unless you run a bunch of flying Monstrous Creatures. As a unit of 16 horrors can dish out on average 14 strength 5 shots that hit 7 times which is not too devestating. However throw in a herald which can dish out 14 shots as well and bumb the strength to 6 which hit about 9-10 times which attached to horrors can hit 16-17 times. Now cast prescience on the unit you are hitting around 21-22 times and casting misfrtune on a unit that you are shooting at you will wip out or nearly wiping out most units, heck the hearld can cast both powers. Not to mention with divination you can negate cover saves as well. With Fateweaver and 4 hearlds you have 13 rolls on the divination table, not even counting the 9 extra powers you can get if you run 3 princes as heavy support.

The second biggest complaint is the psychic buffs on top of true names.

#3 the rewards. Rewards are free buffs. If failing to buff than they are ap two plus one strength weapons or attack adders. For example a bloodthirster have 6 base attacks which can get as much as 9 extra attacks via rewards. If you get the exalted power of rage and rampage and get the greater weapon that gives rampage and plus one for having two specialized weapons. However you can argue both rampages can't stack, so you can opt for the exhaulted weapon that gives out at most 3 attacks for a possible 14 attacks instead of 15, although the Thirster can still get 15 if near a chariot of khorne due to the khorne herald loci.

Any way all 3 rewards, psychic powers, true names mean you could be facing a Bloodthrister with 6 wounds, about 11 attacks, feel no pain, it will not die, immune to over watch and countercharge and lower ws to 1'

[DarkLink]

Rampage doesn't stack. You just gain the rampage usr, and that's that. Having one usr twice doesn't mean you can, say, scout twice, or gain +2 str on the charge.

[chicop76]

Rampage doesn't stack. You just gain the rampage usr, and that's that. Having one usr twice doesn't mean you can, say, scout twice, or gain +2 str on the charge.

Still can have 14 attacks on the charge, 15 near a herald. Sadly you can always have 7+2d3 attacks if you want to build that way. Although thanks to perfect timing a daemon prince with powers can have plus 3+2d3 attacks on the charge. It was a good call not to allow khorne to have psychic powers or you will have princes with plus 12 attacks on the charge on top of their normal attacks for 17 attacks. Again that is why I favor a 13 attack prince over the 11 attack black mace prince. Even though the black mace one wounds on 2s.

Still if a daemon player need to rely on the warp storm table to win games something is wrong with that daemon player list. I wouldn't say a daemon list is an easy win. Its easier for a beginner to win with tau than with daemons. Daemons is still a mid level or advanced player army. If you are playing heavy psyker for example you have to know all the powers available in case you don't get the ones you want.

[DarkLink]

You mean warp speed? Perfect timing grants ignores cover.

[Steven Palmer]

Book's ok-If there was ANYTHING that is wrong is the book of true names and heralds with divination-Get a good roll, hopely the 4+ invun power, on a marine prince with a mace and biomancy then cast the book on it giving it a 2+ invun

[DarkLink]

Rerolling saves, too, since Phil Kelly was stupid enough to let rerollable 2++ saves get through playtesting.

[Aegwymourn]

Rerolling saves, too, since Phil Kelly was stupid enough to let rerollable 2++ saves get through playtesting.

Ha, playtesting... that's funny.

[chicop76]

Rerolling saves, too, since Phil Kelly was stupid enough to let rerollable 2++ saves get through playtesting.

Dark Eldar have two plus invulnerable saves too, sisters used to, and marines and orcs doo.

[DarkLink]

But in each case, there's very limited access. DE can only get it on a single model, and only until it fails, which is good but not broken because it isn't too difficult to force enough saves to fail one single 2++. Sisters had to pass a modified leadership check, and even then only the Canonness got the 2++, and only for one phase, and you had a limited number of attempts per game, and they never got any rerolls either. Severin loth is the only Marine with a potential 2++, and he's just a Librarian, so again, you can force saves. Orks, again, get it on one model for one turn.

And none of those were reliably rerollable.

Compare that to a 20 wound unit with AP2 and nasty shooting with not just a 2++, bit a rerollable 2++. And it works every turn very reliably, and it's easy to get. There are no ways to mitigate the 2++ itself. There are ways to beat the army, sure, but the Grimnoire is unquestionably gamebreaking. Not just in a 'that's really good', but in a 'you have and extremely powerful unit that is effectively impossible for me to kill, this is bull****, I'm going to go play someone else instead'.

[chicop76]

But in each case, there's very limited access. DE can only get it on a single model, and only until it fails, which is good but not broken because it isn't too difficult to force enough saves to fail one single 2++. Sisters had to pass a modified leadership check, and even then only the Canonness got the 2++, and only for one phase, and you had a limited number of attempts per game, and they never got any rerolls either. Severin loth is the only Marine with a potential 2++, and he's just a Librarian, so again, you can force saves. Orks, again, get it on one model for one turn.

And none of those were reliably rerollable.

Compare that to a 20 wound unit with AP2 and nasty shooting with not just a 2++, bit a rerollable 2++. And it works every turn very reliably, and it's easy to get. There are no ways to mitigate the 2++ itself. There are ways to beat the army, sure, but the Grimnoire is unquestionably gamebreaking. Not just in a 'that's really good', but in a 'you have and extremely powerful unit that is effectively impossible for me to kill, this is bull****, I'm going to go play someone else instead'.

You can always play grey knights lol, although you can just keep sending waves of 2plus re rollable saving models at that draigo squad.

I think it's funny when you get a 10 on the warp storm table and cast plus four invulnerable saves on multiple units. What happens is that you have one two plus re rollable and 3-4 squads with three plus invulnerable saves.

Actually with sisters I used to take two cannoness together making the squad size two. Since three powers you have the roll above the squad size which you can't roll under two, they was automatic. Meaning they always had a two plus invulnerable save. With faith I always took 2 lit of faith. Man if I could play by 6th rules martyrdom would be super easy to pull off since I can put thoose models in front of my units, however since I ran eviserators on those models I wouldn't do that unless I was running low on faith. I used to call them the army breaker sisters since they can pretty much take on whole armies. It helped that they could hide behind transports as well.

With marines they have a relic that can turn the two plus save into an invulnerable one.

[DarkLink]

Ah, forgot about the armor. Still only once per game and massively overpriced.

[chicop76]

Ah, forgot about the armor. Still only once per game and massively overpriced.

It only cost more than a whirlwind. If used with White Scar scout move it can be rather useful.

Yeah it only cost your soul when you can get artificer armour for 1/3 the price.

Is it broken to have one of the cheapest vehicles in the game with 11 armour that does 2d6 strength 4 rending hammer of wrath attacks.

What about the only army to have troop units with power weapons or an army that get shrounding for free. Thinking about it said models with power weapons are cheaper than what marines pay for power weapons.

Thinking about it a Khorne Character for 25 points total cost can have an ap 2 melee weapon at initiative. Heck that is the cost of some characters themselves only guardsmen sargents with power weapons is that cheap, though they are not nearly as good.

[DarkLink]

I'm missing something. The armor indomitus doesn't grant vehicles hammer of wrath.

Also, an army of power weapons isn't broken, considering 6th is a shooting game. Offensive assault is very weak.

[chicop76]

I'm missing something. The armor indomitus doesn't grant vehicles hammer of wrath.

Also, an army of power weapons isn't broken, considering 6th is a shooting game. Offensive assault is very weak.

Was talking about the slaanesh chariots that range from 30 points - 80 points.