Favorite "Secret of the 40k Universe"

[Bigred]

My favorite is the Horus Heresy story that implicates the dark secret of the origins of the Grey Knights.

That the founding members are the handful of Traitor Legion marines who stayed loyal in the face of their entire Legions and Primarchs turning traitor around them.

That would mean the Grey Knight's geneseed is a cocktail of individuals like the Death Guard's Garro, the Luna Wolves' Qruze, and others like them.

Beat that one!

[Plasticfish]

If my memory serves me right, isn't the Grey Knights also designated as Chapter number 666?! Which also adds to the darkness of the secret.

[[email protected]]

my favorite secret is that the Alpha Legion is still loyal to emperor

[ThePov]

The Void Dragon is on Mars, controlling the AdMec!

[Mindless-Focus]

The Dark Angel's dark secret is homosexuality...

[person person]

my favorite secret is that the Alpha Legion is still loyal to emperor

same


The Dark Angel's dark secret is homosexuality...

Dark Angel by Lionel Johnson, http://www.horrormasters.com/Text/a_217.pdf

[Magos]

How do we know its not Horus on the Golden Throne :cool:

[RandomX]

For me it is the Emperor. And really how much of a unknowable inhuman ******* that he is.

In HH it has been mention dozens of times about just that thing.

What kind of a man has the patience, and drive to subjugate an entire galaxy with the sword? And then continues to do it when he knows the overall outcome of the endeavor? It has been hinted that he KNEW that Horus would betray him.

Anyway, the big guy is my pick.

-Eric

[Inquisitor McSagington]

My favorite is the Horus Heresy story that implicates the dark secret of the origins of the Grey Knights.

That the founding members are the handful of Traitor Legion marines who stayed loyal in the face of their entire Legions and Primarchs turning traitor around them.

That would mean the Grey Knight's geneseed is a cocktail of individuals like the Death Guard's Garro, the Luna Wolves' Qruze, and others like them.

Beat that one!

Erm..I always thought they were the Inquisition's founders. Garro and Quzre aren't psykers and all Grey Knights are. Also I thought the Sigilite said they'd form a group to combat Xeno's, Traitors and witches....which leads me to say Inquisition.
I could be talking out my backside of course.

Alpharius/Omegon-yeah I did NOT see that one coming. Twins 'eh? So who is alive?

[Agramar]

the lost legions.....:D

[Emperorsmercy]

Ynead, the Eldar god of the dead waiting for the death of the Eldar race in the Infintiy circuit who will rise up and beat Slannesh once and for all, then wander off somewhere.

[Fantomex]

Erm..I always thought they were the Inquisition's founders. Garro and Qruze aren't psykers and all Grey Knights are. Also I thought the Sigilite said they'd form a group to combat Xenos, Traitors and witches....which leads me to say Inquisition.
I could be talking out my backside of course.


I am of two decisions here..
The whole Council of Nikea notwithstanding, at the end of the heresy, the Emperor obviously realises that psykers are needed, and it's this part of the Horus Heresy Collected Visions that strikes me most..



Before Malcador the Sigillite ascended to the Golden Throne he had one last duty to perform. As he stood before the Emperor he was accompanied by a group of twelve hooded attendants. Malcador looked up at the Emperor and the machine to which he was bound.

"Sire, when we last met you commanded me to gather together a group of people whose loyalty to you and to the Imperium was unquestioning. This I have done. I have worked long and hard to find those I thought would suit. I have personally overseen every aspect of the exhaustive tests to which they have been subjected and can vouch for their character, loyalty and strength of mind. They have many skills and will serve you well."

Malcador gestured to the hooded figures behind him, as he did four of them stepped forward and knelt before the Emperor. The Emperor nodded an acknowledgement of their show of fealty to him.

"Sire, these others are known to you. Each of them is a Space Marine. They have cast aside their alleigance to Primarch and Legion who have sided with Horus and pledged themselves anew to you, their Emperor and father. I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching loyalty they are each blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands. However these skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know they will be needed in the coming years."

"Malcador you have judged well, these eight Space Marines do indeed have a vital role to play in the future of the Imperium, though veiled in secrecy they will be."

So, only eight marines?
Nine legions rebelled, though only eight marines? So which legions are these marines members of? Which legion/s had no psyker loyalists remaining? Intriguing to be sure, not to mention the fact that these powers have been kept dormant.. Would this be like a lightswitch, or more like "I have powers, but I'm not using them.."?
Obviously this is where I would pop Garro in, but without any past proof of psychic ability it is a tad confusing..
However, I'd definately say it's the origin of the Grey Knights. Veiled in secrecy is pretty much their motto.
Being designated Chapter 666 though, somewhat hintingly religious of the Emperor, eh?

The other four individuals are not mentioned as being Space Marines. Making assumptive connections, could these four individuals be the humans at the start of the Inquisitor rulebook, Moriana, Promeus, and the two unnamed characters, collectively the beginning of the Inquisition?

Ah, speculation, I love it!

As for other best secrets, I've always thought that symbolic reflection is hidden throughout the 40k universe. Take, for example, Fulgrim.
He was good, and got possessed by a daemon.
I'm sad enough to say that all the Primarchs really literally are like sons of the Emperor, each a little reflection of his entirety.

Now, in Legion, John Grammaticus is shown as meeting the Emperor. He shakes his hand, and is given a brief glimpse at... we don't know.
However, the implication is that it is something pretty damn bad. Given that Grammaticus is meant to be quite the powerful psyker, I wouldn't just say it's the Emperors awesome psychic might.
Throughout the book, Grammaticus is shown literally recoiling, vilified, at Chaos and daemonic influences.

Given the tastiness of the prize, I'm bagging that the Emperor is under constant and direct predation from the warp.
Sure, now he's on the Golden Throne he is constantly fighting the daemons in the webway from entering the Imperial Palace, but I mean before this, Fulgrim-style.
I think the Emperor may be fighting Chaos from within.
He's beating/beaten it, but it's still there, and he's keeping it under guard..

Could be bull, could be truth. I just look forward to the ranting!;)

[Inquisitor McSagington]

World Eaters had no Psyker loyalists or Psykers. Such weakness is blasphemy to Khorne!!

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Qah splitting into a new race called the Umbra which the Hrud worship, its like what happened to the Eldar god/Avatars but 1000 times more interesting.

[Magos]

Hmm, the other thought about the 8 Space Marines who formed the Grey Knights, well, the missing one could be Thousand Son, as the Thousand Sons loyalists could become the Blood Ravens.

[DevilUknow]

The Dark Angel's dark secret is homosexuality...

I've actually heard that is more or less confirmed.

Want proof. Look up Lionel Johnson (aka Lion El'Jonson) and read his poem "The Dark Angel" (http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/librarium/lionel_johnson.htm) and its interpretations.

EDIT: ಠ_ಠ person_person beat me too it.

My favorite secret is the (now retconned?) stuff about the Sensai, the Illuminati, the Ordo Hydra and the Star Child (aka Chaos Child) and the idea that the Eldar Harlequins are behind it.

[Steakhouse]

Just a heads up, I'm gonna be dropping SPOILERS like bombs in this post so if you haven't read the following library of books and and don't want anything given away, please skip over this post:

Legion
Mechanicus
Necron Codex
Xenology

It was revealed in Xenology, well more implicitly implied then actually stated, that the Emperor is actually one of the old ones. A tablet toward the end of the book tells the tale of the War in Heaven. At the end of the war many of the surviving Old Ones took on weakened forms to elude the C'Tan and their Necrontyr minions. A final piece of the tablet clearly shows an Old one taking on the form of a human infant. The Emperor was one of them, and he's guided humanity from their birth (which was likely also his doing).

This is also obliquely corroborated in Legion, where the Eldar leader of the Cabal, a group of like minded alien interests have attempted to steer the course of events in the galaxy to stymie the Ruinous Powers wherever possible. Humanity they learned through their scrying, would be pivotal in either leaving chaos weaker then ever before, or handing them their ultimate victory. No matter how much they meddled and applied their influence to the fledgling species however they could not alter humanity's path toward the future, describing their actions as being "like telling the tide to turn back". Either that was a fate beyond even the Eldar and Cabal to meddle with, or a vast power was protecting and guiding them. I lean toward the latter, though I'll admit one could claim Tzeentch's hand was at work.

It is already known via a vision in the book Mechanicus that sometime in the middle ages the Void Dragon descended to Earth, looking to use the planet as a safe haven while it went dormant along with the rest of the surviving C'Tan. It was wounded, or damaged, though I don't recall the book stating why. At any rate and knight in the service of a local lord rolls up on it and appears to slay it. I'm gonna say that again, a KNIGHT, as in a dude in 14th century plate armor, battled and defeated the VOID DRAGON, a star devouring GOD with LIVING METAL FOR A BODY. It was clearly alluded that the knight was in fact a younger Emperor, though if I'm right he had already eons, epochs if you will, under his belt. The Emperor then delivered the near dead Dragon to Mars and sealed it away, knowing that in another fifteen or so centuries he would have a group of people who had been listening to that monster's cybernetic dreams and could create the fantastic technology needed to power his crusade into the stars.

Do you understand how INSANE that is? How far sighted the Emperor must be to plan out even that single step in a plan that would eventually lead to the uniting of the entire galaxy? In Legion there's a moment where John Grammaticus, an alpha grade Psycher, though possibly higher, meets the Emperor face to face. John brushes against the God's mind briefly and describes him as being the most bloody minded psychopath the universe has ever produced. The Emperor thinks, if it can be called that, in terms of entire planetary populations for cost/benefit analysis. He's willing to throw away trillions to achieve even simple but necessary goals. He is not human, he does not think in human terms or time spans.

So lets talk about those plans. At this point I'm going to be deviate from actual sources, for the most part, and start laying out where I see the Emperor and his strategy going. If you guys see any flaws in my logic, please point them out.

The Emperor developed the pre-heresy version of his Imperium as a secular society, where fantasies such as magic, spirits, religions, gods, and even himself, were not to be worshiped. They were to be be cast aside in favor of the "Emperor's Light" which at the time meant the "Light of Reason". Science. Prosperity. Things that a people clawing their way out of a dark age of technology could get behind. This version of his empire was, whicle not exactly a lie, was a falsehood meant to jump start what would eventually come. He obviously knew of the creatures in the warp, and the faith/strength of will needed to combat them directly. However if the grand majority of your society 1) doesn't know about the threat, and 2) denies the threat the belief and worship it requires to be potent, then you have effectively stymied the opponent, at least for a while while greater progress is made. Of course this strategy wasn't going to last forever. The further flung the crusade became, the more and more likely it was going to be that it was going to encounter some form of warp taint, and once that taint takes root there's very little you can do to burn it away aside from weaponing your people with the strength of faith they would need to survive EN MASS. not on the individual scale mind you, not even on the planetary scale, but once again in terms of whole star systems. I believe the Emperor always intended to make the switch from secularism to an ecclesiastical society when the need presented itself. His vision/knowledge of the future and what will come to pass has proved itself too potent for too long not to buy into this theory. Afterall it's not like he stopped being the all powerful Emperor once the Crusade got underway, hell he didn't stop once he was mortally wounded by Horus.

Which brings me to the Heresy itself. Based on that previous assumption that the Emperor is an Old One, with the the ability to predict and influence future events on a galactic scale, it seems nearly impossible to believe that he didn't see Horus's betrayal coming. In fact I believe, much like everything else he had accomplished over the last thirty centuries, the Emperor knew about it because he had planned it himself, and groomed Horus for that very role. To understand why the Emperor would want to see the galaxy burn, to provide the very real possibility that chaos could rise acendant over all, you have to go back to WHAT HE IS! In the Necron Codex the Old One's are described by the short lived Necrontyr as ultra intelligent mystics with immense longevity. The warp itself was at their beck and call allowing them to cross the incredible distances in the universe with but a step. These beings did not fear the warp, and likely still dont even though it has now become a boiling ocean filled with dangerous entities. The only thing they likely fear are the C'Tan and their Necron armies.

Everyone knows the Second War in Heaven is coming. The Necrons are rising once again. They wiped out the Old One's civilization once before and nearly hunted their species to extinction. They forced the Old One's to weaponize the races they had given rise to, creating psychically attuned races to counter the warp null C'Tan. The Eldar, the Krork and the Jokaero were all hastily developed and released on the galaxy at large in an attempt to slow the advance of the C'Tan and while it wasnt them, but the newly birthed warp nightmares that ended the war, it still shows how much Life the Old One's were willing to sacrifice to achieve victory.

So what if the Emperor planned it all? Not just the Void Dragon and the Mechanicus, not just the beginnings of the crusade and it's possible downfall, not even just his own downfall, but the preparation of the entire galaxy as a weapon to stand against the Necrons. A swirling, starry vortex filled with psychers, chaos marines, and possessed nightmares, walking a tightrope between being swallowed by the ruinous powers and standing as a bulwark against the soul destroying plans of the C'Tan.

That's the big secret that I love, and I hope to god GW likes it too because I can't think of anything more epic then that.

[ThePov]

Well, as amazing and well thought out that line of logic is (which it is, really. Bravo.), and as much as it explains everything, it does depend rather heavily on one central assumption that is by no means set in stone, only implied in very round-about means, that being that the Emperor is an Old One. It's possible, it's epic, and it would explain a lot, which is precisely why GW won't use it. It's not in the interests of the company to essentially close the book on the 40K story like that, because they can instead just keep making money by giving us one teaser after another (and I'm not complaining, I personally fin the whole process very fun.).

So yeah, you have a very well developed theory that is entirely plausible, but will likely never be confirmed for the simple reason that GW likes to suck as much money out of your wallet as possible.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Well, as amazing and well thought out that line of logic is (which it is, really. Bravo.), and as much as it explains everything, it does depend rather heavily on one central assumption that is by no means set in stone, only implied in very round-about means, that being that the Emperor is an Old One. It's possible, it's epic, and it would explain a lot, which is precisely why GW won't use it. It's not in the interests of the company to essentially close the book on the 40K story like that, because they can instead just keep making money by giving us one teaser after another (and I'm not complaining, I personally fin the whole process very fun.).

So yeah, you have a very well developed theory that is entirely plausible, but will likely never be confirmed for the simple reason that GW likes to suck as much money out of your wallet as possible.

I'd say further its a good thing because the individual can really pick/choose ideas/storylines/concepts ect he/she likes and go with that..it isnt wrong, but it isnt right either, its just up to the individual. That why I like 40k backround really, its very much up to the individuals perspective.

[The Undying]

While I like what has already been posted here I feel the need to post one of my own.
It says on Lexicanum that Abaddon was guided to the resting place of his daemon sword by a Gold-Skinned Stranger now who do we know with gold skin ;) cough* deceiver cough*, and what does this mean. Why do the C'tan want to help Chaos when they hate it as much (possibly more) as everyone else.

[darth_papi76]

I don't know if this is a secret or just my wishful thinking but...I was thinking that maybe the Tau evolution and the sudden appearance of the Ethereal Caste was actually the work of some surviving Old Ones. I think their purpose is to unite the galaxy against the C'Tan (that being the Greater Good). Not only that but the Old Ones learned from their mistakes with the Eldar and the Orks by making this new race barely visible in the warp. The other thing that got me thinking about this is a quote from Eldrad Ulthran in the first Tau Codex. He says that he feels protective of them and that they'll go on to great things. I don't know if it holds water, but it might be an interesting secret.

[ThePov]

I don't know if this is a secret or just my wishful thinking but...I was thinking that maybe the Tau evolution and the sudden appearance of the Ethereal Caste was actually the work of some surviving Old Ones. I think their purpose is to unite the galaxy against the C'Tan (that being the Greater Good). Not only that but the Old Ones learned from their mistakes with the Eldar and the Orks by making this new race barely visible in the warp. The other thing that got me thinking about this is a quote from Eldrad Ulthran in the first Tau Codex. He says that he feels protective of them and that they'll go on to great things. I don't know if it holds water, but it might be an interesting secret.
Actually, since the Tau have absoluetly no pyschic power and make no impact on the warp, it;s probably more likely that they are actually the procudt of the C'Tan taking a page out of the Old Ones's playbook.

[Mindless-Focus]

While I like what has already been posted here I feel the need to post one of my own.
It says on Lexicanum that Abaddon was guided to the resting place of his daemon sword by a Gold-Skinned Stranger now who do we know with gold skin ;) cough* deceiver cough*, and what does this mean. Why do the C'tan want to help Chaos when they hate it as much (possibly more) as everyone else.



Abaddon's Claim
A monstrous, golden-skinned stranger led Abaddon to the weapon under the Tower of Silence on Uralan. To take the weapon from its crypt, Abaddon had to pass several tests given to him by the Chaos Gods in order for him to be proven worthy, as the gift is only given to those who were worthy of their dark powers.


Yup. Sounds like the Deceiver...

[Magos]

The Deciever was an imperial governor for awhile, who knows what he;s up to.

[imperialsavant]

My favorite is the Horus Heresy story that implicates the dark secret of the origins of the Grey Knights.

That the founding members are the handful of Traitor Legion marines who stayed loyal in the face of their entire Legions and Primarchs turning traitor around them.

That would mean the Grey Knight's geneseed is a cocktail of individuals like the Death Guard's Garro, the Luna Wolves' Qruze, and others like them.

Beat that one!

:cool: I rather like that Idea as I wondered what the Terran Lord had in mind for them at the end of the Eisenstein Book!

regards Barry H.

[bob]

While I like what has already been posted here I feel the need to post one of my own.
It says on Lexicanum that Abaddon was guided to the resting place of his daemon sword by a Gold-Skinned Stranger now who do we know with gold skin ;) cough* deceiver cough*, and what does this mean. Why do the C'tan want to help Chaos when they hate it as much (possibly more) as everyone else.

Golden skinned may mean tanned, which looked at in certain light (from past use of the term) means the Emperor, likely time travelling (using his powers of prediction he could tell when and where certain warpstorms would deposit him, of course using the same trick to return to his present) in order to do something unfathomable

[Steakhouse]

I don't know if this is a secret or just my wishful thinking but...I was thinking that maybe the Tau evolution and the sudden appearance of the Ethereal Caste was actually the work of some surviving Old Ones. I think their purpose is to unite the galaxy against the C'Tan (that being the Greater Good). Not only that but the Old Ones learned from their mistakes with the Eldar and the Orks by making this new race barely visible in the warp. The other thing that got me thinking about this is a quote from Eldrad Ulthran in the first Tau Codex. He says that he feels protective of them and that they'll go on to great things. I don't know if it holds water, but it might be an interesting secret.

Another one of the secrets revealed in Xenology is that the Harlequins stole a queen from the insect Q'Orl. They took the pheromone gland from it and used it as the basis for the creation of the first Ethereals. The entire Tau empire is guided with a scent based mind control.

[Another Random Geek]

As a Dark Angels player, I rather like the fact that the Lion isn't dead, only sleeping in the Rock. Our Primarch isn't dead or lost in the Warp, he's just taking a nap!

[Steakhouse]

Well, as amazing and well thought out that line of logic is (which it is, really. Bravo.), and as much as it explains everything, it does depend rather heavily on one central assumption that is by no means set in stone, only implied in very round-about means, that being that the Emperor is an Old One. It's possible, it's epic, and it would explain a lot, which is precisely why GW won't use it. It's not in the interests of the company to essentially close the book on the 40K story like that, because they can instead just keep making money by giving us one teaser after another (and I'm not complaining, I personally fin the whole process very fun.).

So yeah, you have a very well developed theory that is entirely plausible, but will likely never be confirmed for the simple reason that GW likes to suck as much money out of your wallet as possible.


I'd say further its a good thing because the individual can really pick/choose ideas/storylines/concepts ect he/she likes and go with that..it isnt wrong, but it isnt right either, its just up to the individual. That why I like 40k backround really, its very much up to the individuals perspective.

Ah a good point. Yes GW won't explain their universe completely... Yet. And no it isnt in their best interests to describe everything... right now. Keep in mind though that ten years back everyone swore that GW would Never NEVER describe, in detail, the events of the Horus Heresy and now here we are with a series of books that are doing just that!

GW will eventually tell a more complete story of the 40k universe. It might take a long time, but when it comes to fluff/lore I am a very patient man.

[bob]

As a Dark Angels player, I rather like the fact that the Lion isn't dead, only sleeping in the Rock. Our Primarch isn't dead or lost in the Warp, he's just taking a nap!

You like the fact that unlike all other loyal primarchs he's lazy?

[Drew da Destroya]

Well, unlike the other Loyal Primarchs, we're not even entirely sure the Lion is loyal to the Emperor anyway.

[Concentrate More]

Tau Ethereals, I mean seriously this race goes from black powder weapons to technology that is superior to the Imperium in a 3,000 year period, all under the Ethereals supervision.

[Karrik]

Cthonia was an all male planet.
The entire planet's population was grown and maintained with clone tanks.
As an Ad. Mech resource planet it had no need for any population not dedicated to mining - and latterly recruitment/conscription into armed forces or genetic research.

We know that the Primarchs can't breed. But Horus has a bloodline in Cthonia - many of the Crusade and Heresy era population resemble him rather than the typical residents of the planet.

So Horus was not scattered (from the lab. on Luna) and instead chose Cthonia as his "home" planet. In doing so he was the only Primarch to fill the ranks of his Legion with his Clone Sons. He bore enough of a resemblance to his officer ranks that it was significant when an actual Son of Cthonia rose through the ranks.

[Drax]

Tau Ethereals, I mean seriously this race goes from black powder weapons to technology that is superior to the Imperium in a 3,000 year period, all under the Ethereals supervision.

Also if you read the tau fluff, the different castes were actually warring with each other in brutal civil war then out of no where one night the ethereal's come and everybody just starts getting along. Seriously something is going on there

[Steakhouse]

Also if you read the tau fluff, the different castes were actually warring with each other in brutal civil war then out of no where one night the ethereal's come and everybody just starts getting along. Seriously something is going on there

According to Xenology the Tau were created by the Eldar, specifically the Harlequins. An insect species called the Q,Orl had a small hive empire spanning a few systems over on the western fringe of the galaxy. They were almost lost to a taint of some kind, it's hinted that it was chaos. Tall thin men arrived and offered a cure in exchange for something. The Q'Orl agreed and the tall thin men kept up their end of the bargain, however when it came time for the Q'Orl to do the same they discovered that the cost would be one of their Swarm Queens. They refused and the Queen was stolen.

Sometime later on the Tau home world, the hunter gatherers of the plains were laying siege to the farming folk of the mountains. On the eve of a battle that would have likely permanently crippled both sides the Ethereals appeared and calmed the combatants. The Ethereals all possess the same type of pheromone gland stack in their foreheads that the Swarm Queen possessed. The Ethereals appeared, fully formed, from out of no where and pacified the fiery hearted race at exactly the right moment. Later, as the Tau were beginning to delve into space for the first time they discovered a crashed imperial ship on of the planets of their system, with it's warp drive and gellar field systems intact.

It's all terribly convenient, or very well orchestrated. The inquisitor in Xenology leans toward the later hypothesis. Further evidence is added when one considers Commander Farsight. Fighting the green skins, bereft of his Ethereal council, he ignores orders and presses on into Ork held territory and makes a discovery at an ancient ruin. That discovery he claims told him the truth of his people. Most people assume that the discovery was the Dawn Blade, that it's warped his mind and turned him away from the greater good, but I think that was only part of it. Many people guess Necron technology when the blade is mentioned. I don't think so. I think the sword is one of the Hundred Blades of Vaul, and his true discovery was the origins of his species and the nature of the Ethereals. The blade was just a prize.

In short the hypothesis: The Tau a a project, developed by the Harlequins. They were created with a very low warp presence, almost no reflection, and given leaders with pheromone based mind control to act as a unifying and incorruptible center in the coming war against Chaos.

[Bigred]

The tale I had heard was that while Abnett was still working on Legion, he was so giddy over his great reveal that he let slip to much at one of the GDs or book signings he was at.

People who spoke with him said the big reveal with the Emperor and Grammaticus was that he saw to his horror in that millisecond that the Emperor is a dried out, barely functional husk of a human. While he is the most potent psyker in the universe, he physically wholly sustains his normally mortal form which is now some 50,000 years old through pure psychic will. It is only through constant psychic projection and the control of the minds of all those around him that his false physical form and irresistable presence is projected.

The blasted husk that lay in the Golden Throne is not the results of wounds from Horus, but what was always in truth there. It's simply the side effect of the Emperor's Soul having either "ascended" or having much more important duties to attend to than worrying about his physical appearance any longer.

Apparently Abnett decided to keep the curtain drawn in later drafts of the novel.

Cool stuff.

[Magos]

Thats an utterly amazing idea I must say

[Rodwonder]

The tale I had heard was that while Abnett was still working on Legion, he was so giddy over his great reveal that he let slip to much at one of the GDs or book signings he was at.

People who spoke with him said the big reveal with the Emperor and Grammaticus was that he saw to his horror in that millisecond that the Emperor is a dried out, barely functional husk of a human. While he is the most potent psyker in the universe, he physically wholly sustains his normally mortal form which is now some 50,000 years old through pure psychic will. It is only through constant psychic projection and the control of the minds of all those around him that his false physical form and irresistable presence is projected.

The blasted husk that lay in the Golden Throne is not the results of wounds from Horus, but what was always in truth there. It's simply the side effect of the Emperor's Soul having either "ascended" or having much more important duties to attend to than worrying about his physical appearance any longer.

Apparently Abnett decided to keep the curtain drawn in later drafts of the novel.

Cool stuff.

Yes I have heard about this slip up before... Maybe it will be revealed in a future book!

[[email protected]]

While I like what has already been posted here I feel the need to post one of my own.
It says on Lexicanum that Abaddon was guided to the resting place of his daemon sword by a Gold-Skinned Stranger now who do we know with gold skin ;) cough* deceiver cough*, and what does this mean. Why do the C'tan want to help Chaos when they hate it as much (possibly more) as everyone else.

well first of all this C'tan is the Deceiver, who must have some big scheme going on... for only the Deceiver can come up with a plan involving his enemy (the warp)...

[Duke]

I am tottally suprised that nobody has mentioned anything of Lord Cypher and his apparent goal of unplugging the golden throne.

I really do ejoy this thread though, keep it up.

[Majorcrash]

World Eaters had no Psyker loyalists or Psykers. Such weakness is blasphemy to Khorne!!

actually in their fluff it mentions that Kharn and others hunted down and killed their librarian brothers after they went rogue.

[Steakhouse]

The tale I had heard was that while Abnett was still working on Legion, he was so giddy over his great reveal that he let slip to much at one of the GDs or book signings he was at.

People who spoke with him said the big reveal with the Emperor and Grammaticus was that he saw to his horror in that millisecond that the Emperor is a dried out, barely functional husk of a human. While he is the most potent psyker in the universe, he physically wholly sustains his normally mortal form which is now some 50,000 years old through pure psychic will. It is only through constant psychic projection and the control of the minds of all those around him that his false physical form and irresistable presence is projected.

The blasted husk that lay in the Golden Throne is not the results of wounds from Horus, but what was always in truth there. It's simply the side effect of the Emperor's Soul having either "ascended" or having much more important duties to attend to than worrying about his physical appearance any longer.

Apparently Abnett decided to keep the curtain drawn in later drafts of the novel.

Cool stuff.

Wow that is an exciting possibility and one I hadn't considered. It also brings into question how powerful the Eldar actually are if the Emperor is simply human, albeit an incredibly powerful one.

[Jearden]

Well, since I play Space Wolves, of coarse one of the secrets that I love is... where did Primarch Lemun Russ go? What was so important somewhere else that he left, and when will he return? When is "The Wolf Time"?

[Steakhouse]

Maybe you'll get some more answers in the upcoming codex.

[Jearden]

Doubt it! lol I think its one of those questions that is being left open, one of those "Never to be Revealed!" type things.

Of coarse, "Prospero Burns" by Dan Abnett is also being released in April of 2010, who knows what he might throw out there. I mean, he answered some huge questions with "Legion", questions that no one thought would ever be answered.

[Andrew283]

I thought Russ went into the warp to fight chaos

[ChaosLord127]

That Magnus (Thousand Sons) and Konrad Curze (Night Lords) were both loyal to the Emperor, and it is the Emperor's fault that their legions are "traitors".

[Abominable Plague Marine]

That Magnus (Thousand Sons) and Konrad Curze (Night Lords) were both loyal to the Emperor, and it is the Emperor's fault that their legions are "traitors".

Are you sure??? Konrad Cruze was anything but a "nice guy", he all but slew Dorn in single combat and destroyed his own homeworld before the heresy.

As for something that hasnt been mentioned, before the unveiling secrecy of Inqusitors into mainstream publication, there was a constant rumour of "Star Children", said to be the Emperors will, re-born in many vessels throughout the universe.

[[email protected]]

I am tottally suprised that nobody has mentioned anything of Lord Cypher and his apparent goal of unplugging the golden throne.

I really do ejoy this thread though, keep it up.

That also surprises me y doesn't any one care about cypher and his big unused sword....

As for Conrad Curze, did he not have a duel personality and even before the emperor did he not basically take over his planet through terror

Magnus was only trying to help (plus his pre-heresy legion is cool and all ancien gyptian-ish) was Russ not tricked into attacking Prospero by Horus

[Jearden]

No one knows if Horus tricked Russ, or if the Emperor ordered Russ to attack Magnus. Magnus did try to warn the Emperor about Horus using the powers of the Warp, and Magnus had been ordered to stop using sorcery after the Censorship at the Council of Nikea. Im pretty sure that this is a question that will be answered in "A Thousand Sons" or in "Prospero Burns".

As for Russ going to fight Chaos in the Warp, no one really knows. What is know is that, Russ and his closest friends were at The Feast of the Emperors Ascention. Russ stepped up on top of the table that he had battled the Emperor on, and just stood there a while. At this point he spoke with his captains, and left (some reports say he walked out, others say he simply disappeared). His last reported words were "At the end, I will return. For the Final Battle. For the Wolftime." This is when Bjorn the Felhanded was named the First Great Wolf, and he declared the first of the Great Hunts to search for Russ. Bjorn is now an Ancient (a Dreadnought) and he awoken once every 1000 years to test the Rune Priests on thier knowledge of the story of Russ and his last feast.

[Magos]

I still thinbk its a huge loss that Magnus had to turn traitor. But then again, which others of the Traitor Legions could have become Tzeentchian...

[Drew da Destroya]

Well, I guess the Alpha Legion could have turned to Tzeentch. Not so much because of psyker usage, but because of the convoluted plots and secret plans they use constantly. That is, if the Alpha Legion had actually turned traitor, instead of staying loyal to the Emperor like they are. Hooray for the Loyalist Traitors!

I think the true loyalty of the Alpha Legion is my favorite "Big Secret" of 40k, although I'm also a big fan of the Dragon being on Mars. The Brain Boyz turning into the Snotlings is also a pretty interesting, but not really that big a secret.

[ChaosLord127]

Are you sure??? Konrad Cruze was anything but a "nice guy", he all but slew Dorn in single combat and destroyed his own homeworld before the heresy.

Mmmk, Curze may have not been the nicest guy, but you must remember that he was raised on an "evil" planet... not even raised, survived. If you read his history, Curze was ordered to use his legion as terror troops, and the emperor backed him at least until the other Primarchs started to bring up his terror tactics, at which time the emperor condemned him. Dorn wasn't killed, and therefore "slew" is not a correct term, he was mauled though. This was due to Curze being reproached by Dorn for having a vision of the Emperor killing his brothers and himself (Curze had many visions which all came true). He was then sent to his chambers and condemned, at which time he escaped due to his dire position. The Emperor then sent an assassin to kill him, who failed, but this convinced Curze that he could not still serve the Emperor. He soon saw the corruption of Nostramo due to his abscence, and destroyed it.

A lot of this is gained from the book Lord of the Night which is actually pretty good, so I would definately suggest it. However, a lot of these details could be up for debate as it is told from the perspective of a Night Lord space marine (not necessarily chaos though, just traitor) who may have lied to the reader...

[xarius]

The Emperor then sent an assassin to kill him, who failed,

i thought that curze realised previously what he had done, told his men to stand down and let the assasin march in and kill him, though this may be old canon.

[ChaosLord127]

i thought that curze realised previously what he had done, told his men to stand down and let the assasin march in and kill him, though this may be old canon.

That was a later attempt. That was after/during (?) the heresy, while the one I was referring to was prior to the Horus Heresy.

[Chaos]

Its a mystery to me how the emperor uses the bathroom while fighting chaos at the same time :confused:

[Steakhouse]

They dont call it the golden THRONE for nothing *rimshot*

[DarcChipmunk]

I really enjoyed Fantomex's and Steakhouse's comments regarding the Emperor. Top notch stuff, really well thought up and all totally plausible. That's my favorite secret.

cheers,

[CrimsonFist1149]

well since i love the Dark Angels my favorite secret has to be that Luther is still alive and is being kept in a secret cell that only the highest ranking members of the inner circle know about

[Dan-e]

I personally like some of the C'tan background, not the part how they are controlling everything (though the necron player in me thinks thats pretty sweet too) but the part about the in fighting.

also, and while maybe just my understanding or bad use of similar terms and stories, but the belief that the Eldar Laughing God and the Deceiver are basically interchangeable. Either two beings that are mistake in lore by (not mistakes on GW but people in the stories) , two people who use each others persona for their own goals (maybe the laughing god told the nightbringer to eat other C'tan) or they are just the same person (a C'tan using the eldar or an eldar god who found the best way to destory the Necrons)

I also like the conflicting between the Emperor & the Ad Mechs using the Void Dragon or the Void Dragon using the Emperor & the Ad Mechs.


on a side tangent, Do the Black Templar have any deep dark secrets? I can't seem to remember anything about them that seems like a 40k taint on their "Grand Crusade" for the emperor...

[ThePov]

on a side tangent, Do the Black Templar have any deep dark secrets? I can't seem to remember anything about them that seems like a 40k taint on their "Grand Crusade" for the emperor...

Well, I'm not a Templars player, so I can't tell you any "deep, dark" secrets, but it's very well known that they are the only chapter that refuses to stick to the 1000 marine limit, and in fact have many times that spread around the galaxy, which pisses the Inquisition off to no end.

[Andrew283]

Salamanders don't stay by the 1000 marine limit as they only have 7 companies due to bing mostly annialated on armageddon and after throwing basically half the chapter against Leviathan. Also the Space Wolves have about 13 companies and so do not follow that fool Gullimans "perfect" chapter rules

[ThePov]

Salamanders don't stay by the 1000 marine limit as they only have 7 companies due to bing mostly annialated on armageddon and after throwing basically half the chapter against Leviathan. Also the Space Wolves have about 13 companies and so do not follow that fool Gullimans "perfect" chapter rules
Yes, but the Salamanders just arrange their 1000 Marines into 7 companies, they still have 1000 marines. The Space Wolves may have 13 companies, but they still don't have as many as the Black Templars. They litterally have as many Marines as they can get thier hands on, no limits imposed.

[Magos]

I went with the idea that the Space Wolves have 200 Marines Per company, so...yeah, 1600 or so marines.

[Jearden]

Remember the 13th Great Company isnt really "with" the rest of the Wolves. They sort of do thier own thing and run around without any direct instructions from the Great Wolf.

If you figure about 100 for each of the other companies, thats about 1200, but figure in current Great Companies waiting for a recruit pack to join to replace loses. Im sure there about 70 per Great Company. Thats about 840. Logan's Great Company is mostly Wolf Guard, Rune Priests, Wolf Priests and Iron Priests. That probly brings up close to 1000, plus the groups of Fenrisians currently in various levels of being converted into Marines. Not counting the recruits that arent ready for the battle field Im sure that its close to about 1000 Wolves running around Segmentum Solar, Gothic Sector and Scarus Sector.

I do think given the chance that Logan Grimnar would pretty much ignore the Codex Astartes, but the Wolves are known for going out looking for trouble (going a Viking if you will). They pretty much have to, to earn honor to prove themselves in battle as Russ would want them to. Im willing to bet they set close to 1000 Marines more out of just attrition and low recruit rate than because of the Codex Atartes.

[Forhekset]

My favorite is the Horus Heresy story that implicates the dark secret of the origins of the Grey Knights.

That the founding members are the handful of Traitor Legion marines who stayed loyal in the face of their entire Legions and Primarchs turning traitor around them.

That would mean the Grey Knight's geneseed is a cocktail of individuals like the Death Guard's Garro, the Luna Wolves' Qruze, and others like them.

Beat that one!
You mean the Inquisition as a whole. Nothing is said of the Grey Knights.

[Forhekset]

Just a heads up, I'm gonna be dropping SPOILERS like bombs in this post so if you haven't read the following library of books and and don't want anything given away, please skip over this post:

Legion
Mechanicus
Necron Codex
Xenology

It was revealed in Xenology, well more implicitly implied then actually stated, that the Emperor is actually one of the old ones. A tablet toward the end of the book tells the tale of the War in Heaven. At the end of the war many of the surviving Old Ones took on weakened forms to elude the C'Tan and their Necrontyr minions. A final piece of the tablet clearly shows an Old one taking on the form of a human infant. The Emperor was one of them, and he's guided humanity from their birth (which was likely also his doing).

This is also obliquely corroborated in Legion, where the Eldar leader of the Cabal, a group of like minded alien interests have attempted to steer the course of events in the galaxy to stymie the Ruinous Powers wherever possible. Humanity they learned through their scrying, would be pivotal in either leaving chaos weaker then ever before, or handing them their ultimate victory. No matter how much they meddled and applied their influence to the fledgling species however they could not alter humanity's path toward the future, describing their actions as being "like telling the tide to turn back". Either that was a fate beyond even the Eldar and Cabal to meddle with, or a vast power was protecting and guiding them. I lean toward the latter, though I'll admit one could claim Tzeentch's hand was at work.

It is already known via a vision in the book Mechanicus that sometime in the middle ages the Void Dragon descended to Earth, looking to use the planet as a safe haven while it went dormant along with the rest of the surviving C'Tan. It was wounded, or damaged, though I don't recall the book stating why. At any rate and knight in the service of a local lord rolls up on it and appears to slay it. I'm gonna say that again, a KNIGHT, as in a dude in 14th century plate armor, battled and defeated the VOID DRAGON, a star devouring GOD with LIVING METAL FOR A BODY. It was clearly alluded that the knight was in fact a younger Emperor, though if I'm right he had already eons, epochs if you will, under his belt. The Emperor then delivered the near dead Dragon to Mars and sealed it away, knowing that in another fifteen or so centuries he would have a group of people who had been listening to that monster's cybernetic dreams and could create the fantastic technology needed to power his crusade into the stars.

Do you understand how INSANE that is? How far sighted the Emperor must be to plan out even that single step in a plan that would eventually lead to the uniting of the entire galaxy? In Legion there's a moment where John Grammaticus, an alpha grade Psycher, though possibly higher, meets the Emperor face to face. John brushes against the God's mind briefly and describes him as being the most bloody minded psychopath the universe has ever produced. The Emperor thinks, if it can be called that, in terms of entire planetary populations for cost/benefit analysis. He's willing to throw away trillions to achieve even simple but necessary goals. He is not human, he does not think in human terms or time spans.

So lets talk about those plans. At this point I'm going to be deviate from actual sources, for the most part, and start laying out where I see the Emperor and his strategy going. If you guys see any flaws in my logic, please point them out.

The Emperor developed the pre-heresy version of his Imperium as a secular society, where fantasies such as magic, spirits, religions, gods, and even himself, were not to be worshiped. They were to be be cast aside in favor of the "Emperor's Light" which at the time meant the "Light of Reason". Science. Prosperity. Things that a people clawing their way out of a dark age of technology could get behind. This version of his empire was, whicle not exactly a lie, was a falsehood meant to jump start what would eventually come. He obviously knew of the creatures in the warp, and the faith/strength of will needed to combat them directly. However if the grand majority of your society 1) doesn't know about the threat, and 2) denies the threat the belief and worship it requires to be potent, then you have effectively stymied the opponent, at least for a while while greater progress is made. Of course this strategy wasn't going to last forever. The further flung the crusade became, the more and more likely it was going to be that it was going to encounter some form of warp taint, and once that taint takes root there's very little you can do to burn it away aside from weaponing your people with the strength of faith they would need to survive EN MASS. not on the individual scale mind you, not even on the planetary scale, but once again in terms of whole star systems. I believe the Emperor always intended to make the switch from secularism to an ecclesiastical society when the need presented itself. His vision/knowledge of the future and what will come to pass has proved itself too potent for too long not to buy into this theory. Afterall it's not like he stopped being the all powerful Emperor once the Crusade got underway, hell he didn't stop once he was mortally wounded by Horus.

Which brings me to the Heresy itself. Based on that previous assumption that the Emperor is an Old One, with the the ability to predict and influence future events on a galactic scale, it seems nearly impossible to believe that he didn't see Horus's betrayal coming. In fact I believe, much like everything else he had accomplished over the last thirty centuries, the Emperor knew about it because he had planned it himself, and groomed Horus for that very role. To understand why the Emperor would want to see the galaxy burn, to provide the very real possibility that chaos could rise acendant over all, you have to go back to WHAT HE IS! In the Necron Codex the Old One's are described by the short lived Necrontyr as ultra intelligent mystics with immense longevity. The warp itself was at their beck and call allowing them to cross the incredible distances in the universe with but a step. These beings did not fear the warp, and likely still dont even though it has now become a boiling ocean filled with dangerous entities. The only thing they likely fear are the C'Tan and their Necron armies.

Everyone knows the Second War in Heaven is coming. The Necrons are rising once again. They wiped out the Old One's civilization once before and nearly hunted their species to extinction. They forced the Old One's to weaponize the races they had given rise to, creating psychically attuned races to counter the warp null C'Tan. The Eldar, the Krork and the Jokaero were all hastily developed and released on the galaxy at large in an attempt to slow the advance of the C'Tan and while it wasnt them, but the newly birthed warp nightmares that ended the war, it still shows how much Life the Old One's were willing to sacrifice to achieve victory.

So what if the Emperor planned it all? Not just the Void Dragon and the Mechanicus, not just the beginnings of the crusade and it's possible downfall, not even just his own downfall, but the preparation of the entire galaxy as a weapon to stand against the Necrons. A swirling, starry vortex filled with psychers, chaos marines, and possessed nightmares, walking a tightrope between being swallowed by the ruinous powers and standing as a bulwark against the soul destroying plans of the C'Tan.

That's the big secret that I love, and I hope to god GW likes it too because I can't think of anything more epic then that.
You just blew my mind.

I realise I'm coming into this thread late, forgive my last post.

What bugs me is that if the Emperor is so awesome and powerful and farseeing, couldn't he have predicted the end of Chaos by allowing Horus to win and blow itself out in a immaterial armageddon, as the Cabal forsaw? If he did infact see it the same way, why on earth would he have stopped Horus? Did he change his mind in the last second? Is he mad? What's the reasoning there?

And one thing that seems to be evident to me all through the Heresy is that 1, ALL Primarchs are about as emotionally mature as a small child, and 2, for super post human demigods, they all have some serious daddy issues and supremely petty things playing on their minds.

Besides maybe afew of them like Sanguinius, Magnus and Curze.

How simple was it for Erebus to twist Horus' perception of what was happening? To turn his base human nature into one of the most potent weapons ever conceived. Boohoo daddy went back home to Terra and left me all alone!

The Emperor, if he is as all knowing and glorious as they say, must of realised how stupid it was to put all these emotionally retarded people in charge of his Imperium, regardless of how much genius they have, they're still human at heart.
I hope the writers know what they're doing in the end, cause the galaxy seems rife with idiots who just want to kill each other :P Oh well, that's humanity for ya.

At any rate, after reading Xenology, I was so blown away with the amazing set of mysteries assaulting my mind. I sat up for hours trying to make sense of it all and link the Eldar poetry with the tablet and all sorts of business. Soooo much awesome.

[Forhekset]

According to Xenology the Tau were created by the Eldar, specifically the Harlequins. An insect species called the Q,Orl had a small hive empire spanning a few systems over on the western fringe of the galaxy. They were almost lost to a taint of some kind, it's hinted that it was chaos. Tall thin men arrived and offered a cure in exchange for something. The Q'Orl agreed and the tall thin men kept up their end of the bargain, however when it came time for the Q'Orl to do the same they discovered that the cost would be one of their Swarm Queens. They refused and the Queen was stolen.

Sometime later on the Tau home world, the hunter gatherers of the plains were laying siege to the farming folk of the mountains. On the eve of a battle that would have likely permanently crippled both sides the Ethereals appeared and calmed the combatants. The Ethereals all possess the same type of pheromone gland stack in their foreheads that the Swarm Queen possessed. The Ethereals appeared, fully formed, from out of no where and pacified the fiery hearted race at exactly the right moment. Later, as the Tau were beginning to delve into space for the first time they discovered a crashed imperial ship on of the planets of their system, with it's warp drive and gellar field systems intact.

It's all terribly convenient, or very well orchestrated. The inquisitor in Xenology leans toward the later hypothesis. Further evidence is added when one considers Commander Farsight. Fighting the green skins, bereft of his Ethereal council, he ignores orders and presses on into Ork held territory and makes a discovery at an ancient ruin. That discovery he claims told him the truth of his people. Most people assume that the discovery was the Dawn Blade, that it's warped his mind and turned him away from the greater good, but I think that was only part of it. Many people guess Necron technology when the blade is mentioned. I don't think so. I think the sword is one of the Hundred Blades of Vaul, and his true discovery was the origins of his species and the nature of the Ethereals. The blade was just a prize.

In short the hypothesis: The Tau a a project, developed by the Harlequins. They were created with a very low warp presence, almost no reflection, and given leaders with pheromone based mind control to act as a unifying and incorruptible center in the coming war against Chaos.
I can't believe I read that book afew times and didn't make that connection. I remember the Q'Orl story and everything.

It's annoying cause before that book I was writing up alot of fiction to justify a homebrew Chaos Tau army :P Using the organ in the heads of the Ethereals as some kind of latent psyker thing, tying it into the N'dras system in Tau space and Farsight's running off... anyway I thought it was clever, but they went and ruined it :P

[Forhekset]

The tale I had heard was that while Abnett was still working on Legion, he was so giddy over his great reveal that he let slip to much at one of the GDs or book signings he was at.

People who spoke with him said the big reveal with the Emperor and Grammaticus was that he saw to his horror in that millisecond that the Emperor is a dried out, barely functional husk of a human. While he is the most potent psyker in the universe, he physically wholly sustains his normally mortal form which is now some 50,000 years old through pure psychic will. It is only through constant psychic projection and the control of the minds of all those around him that his false physical form and irresistable presence is projected.

The blasted husk that lay in the Golden Throne is not the results of wounds from Horus, but what was always in truth there. It's simply the side effect of the Emperor's Soul having either "ascended" or having much more important duties to attend to than worrying about his physical appearance any longer.

Apparently Abnett decided to keep the curtain drawn in later drafts of the novel.

Cool stuff.
That's amazing. It's also an awesome point in that whenever we see the Emperor, as you'd expect, people are awe struck and just kneel before his awesomeness and all that business. While I've always assumed that this was his 'natural' form, for some reason I've never considered the fact that he's such an insanely powerful psyker could be used to just warp everyones minds into loving him.

He really could be anyone with any agenda - Just cause people see this awesome god like guy that makes them automatically feel awesome about him, doesn't mean that's a genuine effect.

I guess I was clouded by my oaths of fealty, I forgot the basic principles of psychic power - they can alter your perceptions and make you think or feel things that arn't your own.

[Forhekset]

Mmmk, Curze may have not been the nicest guy, but you must remember that he was raised on an "evil" planet... not even raised, survived. If you read his history, Curze was ordered to use his legion as terror troops, and the emperor backed him at least until the other Primarchs started to bring up his terror tactics, at which time the emperor condemned him. Dorn wasn't killed, and therefore "slew" is not a correct term, he was mauled though. This was due to Curze being reproached by Dorn for having a vision of the Emperor killing his brothers and himself (Curze had many visions which all came true). He was then sent to his chambers and condemned, at which time he escaped due to his dire position. The Emperor then sent an assassin to kill him, who failed, but this convinced Curze that he could not still serve the Emperor. He soon saw the corruption of Nostramo due to his abscence, and destroyed it.

A lot of this is gained from the book Lord of the Night which is actually pretty good, so I would definately suggest it. However, a lot of these details could be up for debate as it is told from the perspective of a Night Lord space marine (not necessarily chaos though, just traitor) who may have lied to the reader...
I thought Curze attacked Dorn cause he was upset that Fulgrim had told Dorn about the stuff he had confided in him? Well, one of the reasons.

I really like Curze. Deep down he's probably a good guy, it's not his fault he's spent his entire life being tormented by visions of the future, and growing up feral on a planet that needed harsh controls to maintain order.

As for him being traitor or loyalist, I'm not sure he was ever any of the two. Dorn reprimanded him on that planet during the audio book, and it became pretty clear that the way the Night Lords did their stuff was in no way how the Imperium was supposed to function. Again makes me question what the hell the Emperor was doing putting all these crazy people in charge of legions of super warriors.

I love the secret that was revealed about the Alpha Legion, but it really only is half the answer now - the question now is how long did it last? Surely they are of Chaos now, arn't they? Or is that another ploy? What kind of people are they now? I love the idea that no plan or supposed secret is above them. You think you've finally found the truth of it and then suddenly you realise, too late, that it was all staged.

The only thing I don't like about these Heresy books, besides Ben Counter, is the fact that they make me want to have an army based on all of these awesome chapters :D Although I realise they will be far different by the time 40k rolls around unfortunately. I'd love a classic Emperor's Children army.

[L192837465]

The conspiracy that the Emperor is held prisoner in the golden throne and the psychers sacrificed to him are to keep him bound. When he dies, he will be resurrected and lead the race of man to new heights, but the humans don't want him to usurp their power.

and that Cypher of the Dark Angels is taking the sword to the Emperor to kill him so that can come true.

[Dosadi]

First, Steakhouse you win best post on BoLS Lounge so far (at least IMO). I had the same sort of reaction after reading Legion, that the emperor was laying the groundwork for the “end times” that every race in 40k has a fabled version of.
I also think the Emperor is a fallen Old One, but then so perhaps is Sigmar. But they are not the same person, or are they? Perhaps the consciousness was so vast that it was split into multiple hosts?
My speculation is that the Old Ones made may attempts at creating various races to fight the threat of the C’tan. People assume the eldar were the first, but I think the first would have been the Orks. But something went horribly wrong and the “Brain Boys” who were designed to lead the species devolved into snotlings and the whole “Project Ork” went haywire as a result.
I have all sorts of theories on how the Warhammer World is a microcosm where the Old Ones tested out their various genetic experiments, but something went wrong when Chaos was released and now you have the mess that the Warhammer World is.

Anyway, lovin’ this thread so far.


Dosadi

[Grumpy Ripper]

That orks are veggies due to eating squigs which are just another form of ork fungus

[ChaosLord127]

That orks are veggies due to eating squigs which are just another form of ork fungus

Never thought of it that way. haha that's kind of funny

[Andrew283]

If the Old ones are that concerned with the Necrons then why don't they aid the tyranids or Chaos and then set them against each other

[Grotzooka]

Odd. I was under the impression that all the Old Ones were dead.

[Savark]

I think my favorite secret is the old ones in general, there isn't that much about them.

Also, i think when Abaddon was told by the gold-skin stranger (Cough deceiver) the stranger thought he was going to die and wouldn't make it past the tests. that must have back-fired.

Nice work steakhouse, and where can i find a copy of xenology


-Savark
http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000_Wiki

[Steakhouse]

Ahhh, Ebay? Xenology was a small print run and I happened upon a copy in a game store half under a pile of other books. I had no idea what I was picking up at the time.

We can only hope GW will make another run.

[Steakhouse]

You just blew my mind.

I realise I'm coming into this thread late, forgive my last post.

What bugs me is that if the Emperor is so awesome and powerful and farseeing, couldn't he have predicted the end of Chaos by allowing Horus to win and blow itself out in a immaterial armageddon, as the Cabal forsaw? If he did infact see it the same way, why on earth would he have stopped Horus? Did he change his mind in the last second? Is he mad? What's the reasoning there?

And one thing that seems to be evident to me all through the Heresy is that 1, ALL Primarchs are about as emotionally mature as a small child, and 2, for super post human demigods, they all have some serious daddy issues and supremely petty things playing on their minds.

Besides maybe afew of them like Sanguinius, Magnus and Curze.

How simple was it for Erebus to twist Horus' perception of what was happening? To turn his base human nature into one of the most potent weapons ever conceived. Boohoo daddy went back home to Terra and left me all alone!

The Emperor, if he is as all knowing and glorious as they say, must of realised how stupid it was to put all these emotionally retarded people in charge of his Imperium, regardless of how much genius they have, they're still human at heart.
I hope the writers know what they're doing in the end, cause the galaxy seems rife with idiots who just want to kill each other :P Oh well, that's humanity for ya.

At any rate, after reading Xenology, I was so blown away with the amazing set of mysteries assaulting my mind. I sat up for hours trying to make sense of it all and link the Eldar poetry with the tablet and all sorts of business. Soooo much awesome.

Yeah the tablet raises all sorts of questions. It was really fun to pour over the pictographs for any hidden meanings, like what races all the icons belonged to.

As for the Primarchs being great man children, I believe that has more to do with the fact that the writing for the majority of the Horus Heresy books is actually abominable. The only writer that's really captured the strength, charisma and force of presence that a child of the Emperor should have has been Abnett. I know a lot of people detest his writing for not being perfectly in line with the table top, but he captures characters really well. McNeill may be better at pacing a story, but if said story is bland it doesn't matter how well timed it all is.

As for the Emperor not foreseeing the Cabal's message, we don't know, and likely will never know if it was true or not. The Eldar, though powerful psychers and farseers, can be played by Tzeentch just as much as anyone else can. A paltry answer I know, but as I've acknowledged, the Emperor's motives are as hazy as anything. Even my long winded diatribe is mostly guess work based on educated wishful thinking.

[Steakhouse]

I love the secret that was revealed about the Alpha Legion, but it really only is half the answer now - the question now is how long did it last? Surely they are of Chaos now, arn't they? Or is that another ploy? What kind of people are they now? I love the idea that no plan or supposed secret is above them. You think you've finally found the truth of it and then suddenly you realise, too late, that it was all staged.

You just raised the point I've been thinking on for a while now. Based on the way Chaos is written it's more than just a religion or cult or some power to worship. It has direct and serious effects on both the Materium and anyone in it's presence. The way Abnett and other's have written it is that if you come into contact with warp malign artifacts, writing or symbols it will get to you. It will get into you and it will mess you up. Even with these descriptions I didnt quite follow how potent the chaos gods and daemons were until Straight Silver of the Gaunts Ghosts series, in which several characters going undercover hear cultists praising Khorn's name over a broadcast. The very mention of his name caused reality itself to distort momentarily and leave the character's in question nauseous, weak of limb, and in one case, near seizure.

Knowing that there's no way the Alpha Legion is still truly loyal. Maybe some of them are, a few bands of marines who believe they're still doing what the Emperor would have asked of them, but the rest are likely completely given over to chaos.

[Schnitzel]

As far as Alpha Legions loyalties, I believe its a mix. Doesn't Alpha Legion operate as two entities more or less? You've got a large segment of them operating out of the Eye of Terror and the other half of them operating in Imperial Space. Both seem to have their own seperate agendas more or less right?

I'd like to believe the ones operating out of the Eye have become corrupter by the warp while the rest operating in Imperial space are still "pure".

[[email protected]]

You just blew my mind.

I realise I'm coming into this thread late, forgive my last post.

What bugs me is that if the Emperor is so awesome and powerful and farseeing, couldn't he have predicted the end of Chaos by allowing Horus to win and blow itself out in a immaterial armageddon, as the Cabal forsaw? If he did infact see it the same way, why on earth would he have stopped Horus? Did he change his mind in the last second? Is he mad? What's the reasoning there?

.

Maybe the Emperor saw farther than the Cabal and saw a third possibility:confused: :D

[energongoodie]

I am an Iron Hands player and was gutted that Ferrus Manus was the first Primarch to die.

I'd like to know when and why their association with the Adeptus Mechanicus started. There is no mention of it or bionics or anything technological in their brief appearance in the Horus Heresy series. I know Ferrus Manus is supposed to have connections to the c'tan so Mars could be interested in that.

I like the idea that they and the Adeptus Mechanicus are up to something. But what?

[entendre_entendre]

a side note (i think it was mentioned in the original Heresy collection) about a deal between the Emperor and the Chaos Gods. the Chaos Gods gave the Emperor something, I don't remember (power?:confused:) the Emperor got what he wanted, but wasn't going to hold up his end of the deal, so the Chaos Gods = :mad:,<sharp intake of breath> so they stole the infant primarchs & scattered them across the galaxy, setting the stage for the heresy. since the emperor was trying to create a way for humanity to access the webway when the heresy started, thus rendering the warp almost meaningless to man, the Gods got back at him through Horus.
the important thing to remember here is that time isn't a factor in the warp, so this makes sense (at least to Tzeenech)
what I'm really interested in is the terms of the deal between the Emperor & the Dark Gods, what did the Emperor promise to the Chaos Gods? What did Chaos give the Emperor? Is this rendered redundant by the theory that the Emperor's an Old One, so wouldn't need the Chaos Gods' help at all?

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Erm..I always thought they were the Inquisition's founders. Garro and Quzre aren't psykers and all Grey Knights are. Also I thought the Sigilite said they'd form a group to combat Xeno's, Traitors and witches....which leads me to say Inquisition.
I could be talking out my backside of course.
?

That was my understanding too - the GKs have always been said to have been made from the AlFather's gene seed.

[HappyHaunt]

Codex Space Marines mentions that there are hints in Adeptus Terra vaults that the Grey Knights were created by The Emperor during the Great Crusade. The previous quote someone else mentions from Horus Heresy Collected Visions seems more like further hints at the creation of the Inquisition than the Grey Knights. Why create something you must have pure from the impure, regardless of the actions of the individuals?

Anyhow, my favorite secret of 40K remains that of the Inquisiton War that the Jaq Draco Trilogy touched on

The second one, that is more likely to be answered, is what happens during the final hours of the Horus Heresy, why Horus lowers those shields - if indeed he does - because its clear from current 40K canon that the 40K universe current version of what happens during the Heresy isn't what actually happened....

[Forhekset]

Yeah the tablet raises all sorts of questions. It was really fun to pour over the pictographs for any hidden meanings, like what races all the icons belonged to.

As for the Primarchs being great man children, I believe that has more to do with the fact that the writing for the majority of the Horus Heresy books is actually abominable. The only writer that's really captured the strength, charisma and force of presence that a child of the Emperor should have has been Abnett. I know a lot of people detest his writing for not being perfectly in line with the table top, but he captures characters really well. McNeill may be better at pacing a story, but if said story is bland it doesn't matter how well timed it all is.

As for the Emperor not foreseeing the Cabal's message, we don't know, and likely will never know if it was true or not. The Eldar, though powerful psychers and farseers, can be played by Tzeentch just as much as anyone else can. A paltry answer I know, but as I've acknowledged, the Emperor's motives are as hazy as anything. Even my long winded diatribe is mostly guess work based on educated wishful thinking.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it has been abominable. I mean, besides getting some, dare I say, real writiers in to write a 2000 page epic based on what happened, we'll have to stick with what we're given. For the record, I think Abnett is the best writer by far, and I'm definitely starting to think of McNeil in the same vein (thanks to them working closely together, perhaps).

Rather than it been detrimental that the Primarchs are so emotionally immature, I think it adds a layer of reality to it, that these great men, post men, are still as human at heart as anyone, and the immensity of the pressures they have to endure and the complexities of their analyitical minds leads me to believe it makes sense that they're not so well rounded on a deeply emotional level. It adds to the level of tragedy that this most catastrophic war was almost based entirely on hurt feelings, that they really loved their father and wanted so much to be like him, and they feel so betrayed. And it appears to me that the Emperor may have played it that way himself, as surely he couldn't have underestimated how hurt Horus and his brothers would end up that he'd buggered off without telling them why.

Or maybe he did underestimate it. The Emperor probably has little use for simple emotional exchanges, hes trying to forge an entire galaxy.

Either way when I said what the hell was he thinking to put them in charge, I meant from an internal perspective, not as a criticism of the writing.

But we don't really have the whole picture as it is. Abnett's Horus was very personal and we were close to him and the Mournival then, but as the books progressed, we became further and further away from him. Which I was rather sad about, as I wanted to stay close to see exactly how he changed, but I guess we were withdrawn so they didn't have to deal with such a monumental challenge, possibly one of the most important parts of the Heresy... why and how did he turn? I mean we see what happens during the visions in the temple, but we don't really even get a sense of his reactions. Right when Magnus and Erebus are arguing over it, he decides, obviously to go against the Emperor, since thats what he ends up doing, but the personal journey ends for us there. We don't know how it changed him on a personal level really, all we see is he is now much more ruthless and perhaps abit nuts. We stop seeing him firsthand like in the first book, being gentle and good natured.

I forgot what my point was, but either way, I do like the books, mostly. Although I do wish they were thousands of pages long and never ending, instead of Black Libraries apparent 400page length rule. The stories can jump around abit to much to make sure everything gets covered in the end.

[Forhekset]

You just raised the point I've been thinking on for a while now. Based on the way Chaos is written it's more than just a religion or cult or some power to worship. It has direct and serious effects on both the Materium and anyone in it's presence. The way Abnett and other's have written it is that if you come into contact with warp malign artifacts, writing or symbols it will get to you. It will get into you and it will mess you up. Even with these descriptions I didnt quite follow how potent the chaos gods and daemons were until Straight Silver of the Gaunts Ghosts series, in which several characters going undercover hear cultists praising Khorn's name over a broadcast. The very mention of his name caused reality itself to distort momentarily and leave the character's in question nauseous, weak of limb, and in one case, near seizure.

Knowing that there's no way the Alpha Legion is still truly loyal. Maybe some of them are, a few bands of marines who believe they're still doing what the Emperor would have asked of them, but the rest are likely completely given over to chaos.
I love the effects those authors write into Chaos exposure, but it seems to be pretty inconsistant, or unknown, since the Imperium completely overreacts to anything even remotely related to the warp, being insanely superstitious and so forth.

But it does seem to be the kind of force to get its claws in and not let go, worse of all disrupting your judgement. The problem is it appears to be a case by case thing. It doesn't always do that.

But I guess that is to be expected seeing how it is "chaos", after all. But there's always cases of certain names being dropped and certain symbols that give anyone pause, even if they don't know what it's all about.

That's what I love about Eisenhorn, how his 'descent' into radicalism isn't so clear cut. It's debateable how tainted, if at all, he really is, though you can't argue that he has become a 'radical' of sorts.

As for the Alpha Legion, I assume they would use the iconography and stuff rather innocently to begin with, dressing up to play the part as they do, but I agree with you in that theres no way that wouldn't of had consequences in the end. After so long it would of had so much chance to fall apart. And no doubt they had a certain amount of contact with other traitor legions, however limited.

I'd love to see a book about them related to all that. I'd like to think they lasted well after the Heresy.

[darth_papi76]

The idea that just the mention of Chaos can warp and mess up reality reminds me of the scene in The Fellowship of the Ring where Gandalf speaks the language of Mordor in Rivendell. The sky became dark and everyone looked like they were sick. So be careful next time you pick up the Chaos Codex.:)

[person person]

so be careful next time you pick up the chaos codex.:)

mwa ha ha ha!!!!!!!!

[UnionJackal]

The conspiracy that the Emperor is held prisoner in the golden throne and the psychers sacrificed to him are to keep him bound. When he dies, he will be resurrected and lead the race of man to new heights, but the humans don't want him to usurp their power.

and that Cypher of the Dark Angels is taking the sword to the Emperor to kill him so that can come true.

The other related theory to that is that the mysterious power that Cypher follows is in fact the Emperor himself, guiding his pawn ever closer to Terra so that the Emperor can be released/the Lion Sword can be reforged/the Fallen can be forgiven (delete as preferred). I'm a big fan of the idea that Cypher is technically still a loyalist (and miffed that he's not in the current release of the DA or CSM codices).

As to other great secrets, I'm wondering how many other Loyalists made it off Istvaan. And whether Garviel Loken was one of them. Didn't someone earlier bring up a reference to a group of twelve, eight being Astartes psykers? Who are the other four? Qruze and Garro, quite likely, but the other two? I guess there are a fair few HH books to come before we find out.

[xomntec]

I was always very curious about the large portion of Hive Fleet Leviathan that Kryptman lured into Ork space. I was really surprised when the latest Ork codex made no mention of the Tyranids.

My other favorite mystery was the downfall and whereabouts of Arhra.

[Bikeninja]

This is something that hasn't been touched on in the thread or fluff for that matter. Tyranids. They seem to be the one thing that no one knew could have or would have happened. They seem to me to be the exact opposite of the Necrons which could lead to postulation that they were created for fighting the Necrons. Created by an as yet unidentified Old One, the Empere's is actually the Hive Queen and it is the Astronomicon that brought the Tyranids here. Who knows, but it would be fun to see hwo they fit into all this mess.

Or they could be that one thing, that one wrinkle that nobody could have forseen.

My favorited secret. Everything in Legion. My goodness what a mindbender.

Space Wolves have been said to have anywhere from a 1000 to 3000 marines. They only divided into the Wolf Brothers and since each Great Company is like a mini chapter unto itself it seems to me that their numbers would fluctuate to over an under. My guess around 1300 total.

[ThePov]

This is something that hasn't been touched on in the thread or fluff for that matter. Tyranids. They seem to be the one thing that no one knew could have or would have happened. They seem to me to be the exact opposite of the Necrons which could lead to postulation that they were created for fighting the Necrons. Created by an as yet unidentified Old One, the Empere's is actually the Hive Queen and it is the Astronomicon that brought the Tyranids here. Who knows, but it would be fun to see hwo they fit into all this mess.

Or they could be that one thing, that one wrinkle that nobody could have forseen.

My favorited secret. Everything in Legion. My goodness what a mindbender.

Space Wolves have been said to have anywhere from a 1000 to 3000 marines. They only divided into the Wolf Brothers and since each Great Company is like a mini chapter unto itself it seems to me that their numbers would fluctuate to over an under. My guess around 1300 total.
Okay, well I've heard the "Tyranids were made to fight Necrons" theory before, and while I am no expert on either race, and as cool as the concept is, it has a few major holes:

Since Necrons are not actually alive, and Tyranids eat all BIOmass on a planet, they wouldn't target Necrons
Tyranids are coming from an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GALAXY than the rest of 40K, thousands upon thousands, if not millions of light years away, far from the reach of even the Old One's Schemes
As far as I've heard, there are no "offical" in-fluff cases of necrons fighting Tyranids, which would seem to be counter-intuitve to the idea that the latter was made to fight the former

As far as I can see, 'Nids are the one race in 40K that are EXACTLY what they seem to be a: a single giant, instinct-driven galaxy-eating organism in search of a new hunting ground. Now, for me, this raises the a possibility about why we have only seen splinter fleets so far: The Hive Mind is testing various galaxies to see which one will be the easiest, fattest prey. Thiis means that the whole "Tyranids are going to eat everything and thats how 40K ends" theory may not be inevitable, as if the 40K galaxy puts up enough of a fight, the 'Nids will decide to move on to another, easier prey-galaxy all together. From the stand point of modern biology, zoology, and ecology, this only makes sense.

[Savark]

As far as I can see, 'Nids are the one race in 40K that are EXACTLY what they seem to be a: a single giant, instinct-driven galaxy-eating organism in search of a new hunting ground. Now, for me, this raises the a possibility about why we have only seen splinter fleets so far: The Hive Mind is testing various galaxies to see which one will be the easiest, fattest prey. Thiis means that the whole "Tyranids are going to eat everything and thats how 40K ends" theory may not be inevitable, as if the 40K galaxy puts up enough of a fight, the 'Nids will decide to move on to another, easier prey-galaxy all together. From the stand point of modern biology, zoology, and ecology, this only makes sense.

as this sounds true, they are as you say "a single giant, instinct-driven galaxy-eating organism" they may find other easier prey but they will always come back until they know they can conquer our galaxy

[person person]

What if all the other galaxies are so old they've found a way to repel things like 'Nids. Or all the other galaxies are otherwise inaccesible by ANYTHING. Maybe 40k doesn't put up much of a fight compared to other places.

If you look at the invasion route for hive fleet behemoth, the Nids figured out puttting so many Nids in such little space is a bad idea the hard way, that sounds like a pretty newbish mistake.They then opted for spread out invasion routes.

Maybe "nids aren't as old, or consumed as many galaxies as we thought. They might've started out as a spacebourne zombie/ultimate killing machine plague, that infected some alien race that utilises similiar hiearchy, tactics, weaponry that was enroute to our galaxy already. And this race wasn't that super killy to start with.

[Legionary]

My favourite secret of the 40K universe is Cypher and the Dark Angels. I absolutely don't believe that Cypher is a minion of the Chaos gods that wants to destroy the Emperor for evil ends. I think he's loyal to the Emperor and I buy that the Emperor is entrapped within the Golden Throne and wishes to be released which can only happen through his death. With that Dan Abnett let slip, it's clear that the Emperor's physical existence is of only periphery importance to his vast psychic presence; possibly Cypher understands this and is making his way to the Golden Throne to allow the Emperor to be reborn.

I also tend to suspect that Lion'el and the senior commanders that went with him to Terra were slightly tainted by Chaos or simply suffered a combination of lack of loyalty and lack of courage that meant they waited until a victor was clear before they arrived so they could declare their alliegance to whoever triumphed. Most of the Marines with them didn't know this and simply thought they'd been delayed exactly as the official history has it. However back at the Dark Angels' fortress, they found out about Lion'el's treachery, and when he returned they fired on him. Lion'el covered by saying THEY were the traitors, and we all know what happened from that point onwards. That's my pet conspiracy theory. Oh and yeah, the Dark Angels are gay. ;)

Personally my least favourite secrets all relate to the C'tan and the War in Heaven. I find them slightly ludicrous and tend to block them from my conscious mind. :P

[Duke]

I, for one, would like to see GW progress the story line (If only in 'what if,' books). I know this is like asking the US to go wholly to Green Energy, but it is a nice dream. I would love to see what happens to the universe in another 10000 years... What if, Tau keep progressing in tech and destroy the hive mind link, making 'Nids just a bunch of overgrown cockroaches. Meanwhile a Primarch or two come back and dneounce the beurcrats on Terra which makes all the Astartes break into their own Mini-Empires while naming the High Lords of Terra heretics for making the Emperor to be a god (Which was obivously against his imperial truth.)

I don't know, it would be fun to see what could happen, if only in a what if scenario.

Duke

[person person]

Theirs this story (not official cannon) called, Tau Rising. It takes place 5,000 years from now, and the Tau have evolved into being able to survive in several extreme enviornments and with this adaptability, getting rid of them is, next to impossible or something. Some of the primarchs come back from the warp and stuff.

I haven't read it and don't know what site its on. Some guy told me about it.

[BlacknightIII]

Cypher is always a fun topic, as well as the Black Library, and something interesting my friends and I pieced together through different sourcebooks is that the laughing god is actually the deciever. The only fact i can remember off hand is that the laughing god and the deceiver both use the webway to hide from chaos. Ill break out the books and try to put the rest of the pieces together again.

[eldargal]

I would have to vote for the Cypher/Luthor/DA fluff as well. They went traitor, but repented, while the Fallen who are loyal are hunted because they know this secret which could destroy the now loyal chapter. Kind of a parallel to the Alpha Legion story, except they may or may not be loyal still.

Re: The primarchs immaturity, bear in mind they are to all intents and purposes brothers. I have six, highly intelligent, sensible and educated elder brothers but when you get them together the immaturity is unbearable sometimes. Not hard to see the primarchs acting like that amongst themselves, even if they do appear noble and sublime to others.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I am always bothered by the idea that the Emperor is kept in the throne to prevent his resurrection. Surely, with the millions who believe in his divinity, his power would grow a thousandfold if his soul just went into the warp even briefly?

I actually refuse to use inquisitorial allies simply because of the remote possibility that they are working against the Emperor...

[crunchyjuice]

This did it for me:


also, and while maybe just my understanding or bad use of similar terms and stories, but the belief that the Eldar Laughing God and the Deceiver are basically interchangeable. Either two beings that are mistake in lore by (not mistakes on GW but people in the stories) , two people who use each others persona for their own goals (maybe the laughing god told the nightbringer to eat other C'tan) or they are just the same person (a C'tan using the eldar or an eldar god who found the best

First off, The emperor is an old one. He is bent on destroying the Ctan. At youth he was said to of slain the void dragon, a mighty ctan. It is said that the old ones only succesful creation where the daemons in their war agianst the ctan, which is why the emperor did not prevent the Horus heresy, dispite his powers of forethought. he simply plans that a race that is in tune with the warp is more able to fight the ctan.
Now here im pretty much walking a tightrope. the eldar, a creation of the old ones, believed in their own set of deities, a massive assortment of mighty gods. however, they are not in fact gods but really the ctan. the eldar were created by the old ones to destroy the necrontyr, not chaos. But the eldar gods, like the ctan, mortal enemy is chaos. the necrons have futher proved this by their creation of pariahs, weapons directly pointed at chaos. Now, as the quote above illustrates the similarities between the eldar laughing god and the decevier, it was also stated that the Tau were created by the harlequins, worshipers of the laughing god. Or perhaps, the decevier. The tau are said to posses little pressence in the warp, which means that they cannot be used as a weapon agianst the ctan. it is even hinted that commander farsight owns a weapon of necron origin, the dawn blade. and when the final war in heaven comes, it will be chaos against the ctan, just like it is told in the eldar legends.

So bacically, ever since the inclusion of the necrons and old ones in the 40k fluff, the story has switched from the war against chaos, to the war against the ctan.

It has been said in previous fluff that when the final war in heaven comes, itwill be chaos against the eldar gods, just like in the previous war in heaven from the eldar codex. Or as it's told in the necron codex.... the old ones versus the ctan.

those are just my two cents. There could be some technical flaws in it, such as how the eldar, and not just the harlequins, could begin fighting for their enemy, but whatever. there's always the decevier, even if that doesn't fit very well.

[[email protected]]

Theirs this story (not official cannon) called, Tau Rising. It takes place 5,000 years from now, and the Tau have evolved into being able to survive in several extreme enviornments and with this adaptability, getting rid of them is, next to impossible or something. Some of the primarchs come back from the warp and stuff.

I haven't read it and don't know what site its on. Some guy told me about it.

you mean rise of the tau?

[xomntec]

What is the Emperor's Name? People sure talk about it enough, but I'm begging to suspect no one knows but is to embarrassed (or afraid of being accused of heresy) to ask.

[Andrew283]

The Emperor's name is.....









Husain Bolt!

[eldargal]

Cecil Boothby-Smythe.



What is the Emperor's Name? People sure talk about it enough, but I'm begging to suspect no one knows but is to embarrassed (or afraid of being accused of heresy) to ask.

[ChaosLord127]

What is the Emperor's Name? People sure talk about it enough, but I'm begging to suspect no one knows but is to embarrassed (or afraid of being accused of heresy) to ask.


I have it narrowed down to Palpatine or Bob Saget :)

[Lord Anubis]

First off, The emperor is an old one.

Y'know, I've seen this batted around the internet a few times and I still don't really buy it. The usual "proof" is the stone tablet pictured/ described/ interpreted in Xenology and the accompanying fragment.

Thing is, those interpretations say the fourth tier of the tablet are believed to be forms the Old Ones took on and became trapped in. And it shows/ describes what is (most likely) the hand of Khaine and the Laughing God.

So, confusion right off the bat, because there's been a huge pile of hints up until now that, as Dan-e mentioned, that the Laughing God and the Deciever are one and the same, which would mean this part of the tablet is wrong. I'd even toss on that pile the fact that the good folks at GW gave a Golden Demon a few years back to a Deciever model painted in Harlequin colors and titled "The Laughing God...?" Just think it's worth noting they thought that was a great model...

Past that, the "fragment" which shows a human embryo, which seems to be the crux of the "Emperor is an Old One" argument, isn't part of the fourth tier. It's part of the fifth. So it's not part of the "disguises they took" part of the story but part of what came after that.

Finally, when you read all of Xenology, it is made clear that all of this has been an experiment to see how Sasham will react to different bits of information. Without spoiling it too much for anyone (hopefully), there's very good reason given to believe nothing in the book is "true."

It's just like the "Index Astartes" article about the Alpha Legion, where we get to read tons of facts and stories compiled by an Inquisitor which show how the Alpha Legion loves to spread false information and conceal facts, and then we end by finding out the Inquisitor himself is an Alpha Legion agent... ;)

[Savark]

I thought The emperor was the reincarnation of every old Psyker of terra, a man to combat the fall of man so they don't get f'ed up like the eldar

[Forhekset]

What is the Emperor's Name? People sure talk about it enough, but I'm begging to suspect no one knows but is to embarrassed (or afraid of being accused of heresy) to ask.
The Emperor's name is DEATH.

[Forhekset]

Y'know, I've seen this batted around the internet a few times and I still don't really buy it. The usual "proof" is the stone tablet pictured/ described/ interpreted in Xenology and the accompanying fragment.

Thing is, those interpretations say the fourth tier of the tablet are believed to be forms the Old Ones took on and became trapped in. And it shows/ describes what is (most likely) the hand of Khaine and the Laughing God.

So, confusion right off the bat, because there's been a huge pile of hints up until now that, as Dan-e mentioned, that the Laughing God and the Deciever are one and the same, which would mean this part of the tablet is wrong. I'd even toss on that pile the fact that the good folks at GW gave a Golden Demon a few years back to a Deciever model painted in Harlequin colors and titled "The Laughing God...?" Just think it's worth noting they thought that was a great model...

Past that, the "fragment" which shows a human embryo, which seems to be the crux of the "Emperor is an Old One" argument, isn't part of the fourth tier. It's part of the fifth. So it's not part of the "disguises they took" part of the story but part of what came after that.

Finally, when you read all of Xenology, it is made clear that all of this has been an experiment to see how Sasham will react to different bits of information. Without spoiling it too much for anyone (hopefully), there's very good reason given to believe nothing in the book is "true."

It's just like the "Index Astartes" article about the Alpha Legion, where we get to read tons of facts and stories compiled by an Inquisitor which show how the Alpha Legion loves to spread false information and conceal facts, and then we end by finding out the Inquisitor himself is an Alpha Legion agent... ;)
I didn't realise until you said that about the Alpha Legion that most of the article is possibly a lie. That means that Alpharius may not be dead after all, or whoever was taking his place at the time, since it even says that he could not produce that evidence even when asked. Even the Ultramarines have questioned the accounts validity.

So, that's great! Alpharius/Omegon are most likely still at large. Though the question still stands as to what they might be like now...

[BlacknightIII]

Idk if this has been brought up but the 4th C'tan god the outsider, aside from his name idk if anything else is known about him.

[person person]

you mean rise of the tau?

OOPS..Thanks for correcting me


I thought The emperor was the reincarnation of every old Psyker of terra, a man to combat the fall of man so they don't get f'ed up like the eldar

Thats what I though and the psyker's were shamans who had the power to stop death or something, then all of a suddenly lost their powers=end times= create Emperor.

[[email protected]]

rise of the tau is great but it is 226, plus, chapters

[Duke]

Ok, slight change of topic...

I love the fact that in the fluff the Emperor has been around Earth/ Terra from the beginning. He was always behined the scenes directing things. I always like to think who he would have been during certain periods of time.

For example:

Ancient Rome- Caesars military/ diplomatic advisor

bible/ early buddihst/ Islam times - ???

Greece - Philosophier

Modern America - Dick Cheney?

[Drew da Destroya]

Dick Cheney isn't charismatic enough to be the Emperor. If anyone, he'd be Obama. Or JFK... the whole assassination giving him a good way of going back "underground". He could have been Napoleon, or Alexander the Great, testing out his whole "Unified Humanity" theory.

He was originally from Anatolia, which is in Turkey... but that was during prehistoric times, right after all the Shaman commited mass-seppuku and reincarnated in one body. He's probably moved around a bit since then.

[person person]

I believe that the emperor is currently Chuck Norris.

[Fantomex]

I am an Iron Hands player and was gutted that Ferrus Manus was the first Primarch to die.

I'd like to know when and why their association with the Adeptus Mechanicus started. There is no mention of it or bionics or anything technological in their brief appearance in the Horus Heresy series. I know Ferrus Manus is supposed to have connections to the c'tan so Mars could be interested in that.

I like the idea that they and the Adeptus Mechanicus are up to something. But what?

Same. Ferrus Manus is not dead, it's just every printed copy of Fulgrim had that in it by mistake..
I'm hoping after the heresy that GW go back to the Unification Wars, the Great Crusade.
I want to see all the primarchs, see him creating the first marines..

[Schnitzel]

[/FONT]
Same. Ferrus Manus is not dead, it's just every printed copy of Fulgrim had that in it by mistake..
[/FONT]

How exactly did the black library 'mistakenly' kill him? He had his head chopped of by Fulgrim no? That seems pretty intentional and hard for the editors to miss...

It is kinda b/s that they killed Ferrus Manus off like that. Every other Primarch (aside from Night Hunter) is either 'missing' or dead with the possibility of 'rising' again. I mean, Gulliman gets his through gashed open and its supposedly 'healing' over time. Lame.

[AirHorse]

I think he wrote that in jest...

Anyways, my favorite secret of the 40k universe has to be the emperor without doubt. It boggles the mind to even try to get a basic grasp of what kind of plan a being such as the emperor has been persuing for countless millenia, and who knows, perhaps even longer. Do we actually know anything about the old ones at all?(yes im of the belief that the emperor is an old one, that whole shaman story could perhaps be a group of old ones merging to create a super duper old one in the name of survival or something along those lines).

I have to say I also love the alpha legion too, that not only is there a second primarch in secret, but also that both primarchs could still be operating still is just awesome!

[Dark_Templar]

I have to say that there are some brilliant thoughts in this thread, it is unfortunate that so few of the great ideas will see fruition and will likely result in us being given some half-arsed story about the squats being old-ones...

[ThePov]

will likely result in us being given some half-arsed story about the squats being old-ones...


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! !!!!!!

I realise that was a joke, but if that ever actually happened, I would likely lose my faith in not just 40K, but life in general and the existance of good in the universe. (PS I ALWAYS communicate via Hyperbole)

[Duke]

Based on my earlier post about the Emperor being alive during these times I think that we should start a secret society that travels around the world looking for him.

What should we call it? Mickey Mouse club is taken so Im out of ideas.

Duke

P.S.- How does that work, forming a SECRET society on an INTERNET blog? hmmmm

[Drew da Destroya]

P.S.- How does that work, forming a SECRET society on an INTERNET blog? hmmmm

Oh, that's simple. We just don't tell anyone who isn't on the internet!

[Duke]

Oh, that's simple. We just don't tell anyone who isn't on the internet!

Then we will have the largest secret society in the world, Yay look at us going from zero to hero.

[Fantomex]

How exactly did the black library 'mistakenly' kill him? He had his head chopped of by Fulgrim no? That seems pretty intentional and hard for the editors to miss...

It is kinda b/s that they killed Ferrus Manus off like that. Every other Primarch (aside from Night Hunter) is either 'missing' or dead with the possibility of 'rising' again. I mean, Gulliman gets his through gashed open and its supposedly 'healing' over time. Lame.

Yup, I was kidding, as far as I was concerned, Ferrus Manus' death was equivalent to Samuel L Jackson in Star Wars Episode 3, a death of a truly awesome character that was handled like a used tissue.

Then again, there was the whole point of the Iron Hands having Ferrus reappear in spirit form to the remains of the legion at the end of the Heresy, stating that he would be returning when needed most..

Now that is something I can't wait to see.

After the whole Heresy is used up, GW will have to go wither forward or backwards, they can't just retread the same old ground. At that point, I think things will get a lot more interesting..:D

[Duke]

I have said this before and Ill say it again. I would love for GW to continue the story line forward. I have heard that they fear it will ruin the game, I dont think it will for me. What does everyone else think?

Duke

[Dark_Templar]

Yup, I was kidding, as far as I was concerned, Ferrus Manus' death was equivalent to Samuel L Jackson in Star Wars Episode 3, a death of a truly awesome character that was handled like a used tissue.


Stupid Skywalker ruined the entire galaxy in that one moment...



I am dying for the universe to keep moving forward with real stories and fluff, as opposed to "999.M41 Sicarius wiped his butt"

I do fear that GW may handle it poorly.

[Savark]

Perhaps when a primarch dies his soul is sent to the warp, saved by the emperor and preserved from the gods of chaos, that way when the emperor dies they ALL come back

[Dark_Templar]

Perhaps when a primarch dies his soul is sent to the warp, saved by the emperor and preserved from the gods of chaos, that way when the emperor dies they ALL come back

Fair call. If the Emperor is all-powerful, then perhaps he can manifest the souls of the Primarchs into a physical body.

[imperialsavant]

I have said this before and Ill say it again. I would love for GW to continue the story line forward. I have heard that they fear it will ruin the game, I dont think it will for me. What does everyone else think?

Duke

;) I am with you! I think the Mechanicus should find a fix for the Golden Throne, the Emperor will suvive, some of the "lost" Primachs will return & the Imperium will continue to hunt down the Forces of Evil, Xenos etc & we can game on into the 42nd & 43rd Millenium & live happy ever after in unending warfare!:cool:

[Unclehomefries]

First of all, I LOVE this thread! This is wonderful

Secondly, I have to go along with many of the poster and say the secrets in Legion

I'm inspired to (after I finish and get bored with my IG) to make a pre-heresy Alpha Legion

[Mike X]

My favorite is the Horus Heresy story that implicates the dark secret of the origins of the Grey Knights.

That the founding members are the handful of Traitor Legion marines who stayed loyal in the face of their entire Legions and Primarchs turning traitor around them.

That would mean the Grey Knight's geneseed is a cocktail of individuals like the Death Guard's Garro, the Luna Wolves' Qruze, and others like them.

Beat that one!

Uhhh, I could be mistaken, but I took it as Garro, Qruze, and Amendera Kendel were supposed to be like the generals of the Inquisition; not that they were supposed to be the sources for GK's geneseed.

Lexicanum.com has this about it:
"Afterwards, Garro, Qruze and Amendera Kendel were approached by Malcador the Sigillite and told that they would be needed to form the beginnings of an organisation which would utilise 'men and women of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos'."

[Faolain]

Uhhh, I could be mistaken, but I took it as Garro, Qruze, and Amendera Kendel were supposed to be like the generals of the Inquisition; not that they were supposed to be the sources for GK's geneseed.

Lexicanum.com has this about it:
"Afterwards, Garro, Qruze and Amendera Kendel were approached by Malcador the Sigillite and told that they would be needed to form the beginnings of an organisation which would utilise 'men and women of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos'."

Man, I waited to read this whole thread to make sure no one else pointed this out (especially the "inquisitive nature" bit, that makes it fairly obvious. But alas, you beat me to it.

[Faolain]

I was always very curious about the large portion of Hive Fleet Leviathan that Kryptman lured into Ork space. I was really surprised when the latest Ork codex made no mention of the Tyranids.

My other favorite mystery was the downfall and whereabouts of Arhra.

As for the Tyranids, the Planetstrike book continues where Kryptman left off.

As for the Father of Scorpions, it is rumored that he's a powerful Dark Eldar now.

[dmcq]

What happened to the two lost Legions? I know that the HH books have touched on it but how did they disappear. Its obvious that at the time of the Heresy some portions if not all of these Legions are still active, Dorns talk in regard to these Legions and his want for them to join the Loyalists only to be told "...they are lost to us...".

The feel I get is that the Grey Knights are not a contender; designated chapter 666 would say to me that they were codified post-heresy and the Praetorian Guard are different from the Astartes (Tales of Heresy).

Any thoughts???

[Faolain]

What happened to the two lost Legions? I know that the HH books have touched on it but how did they disappear. Its obvious that at the time of the Heresy some portions if not all of these Legions are still active, Dorns talk in regard to these Legions and his want for them to join the Loyalists only to be told "...they are lost to us...".

The feel I get is that the Grey Knights are not a contender; designated chapter 666 would say to me that they were codified post-heresy and the Praetorian Guard are different from the Astartes (Tales of Heresy).

Any thoughts???

It is my understanding that the two missing legions are so you can make up your own fluff about your own loyal/heretic chapter if you don't want to create a successor chapter.

[Mike X]

It is my understanding that the two missing legions are so you can make up your own fluff about your own loyal/heretic chapter if you don't want to create a successor chapter.

Yeah, that's the reason for it.

[kevlarmonkey]

favorite secret is that there once was a race of Space Dwarves that were very proficient at mining, and really hated orks...

[AshHammer]

Ok, here is mine.
Bare in mind that I have been marinated in 40K lore since 1987, but know almost nothing of Fantasy lore.
It had been hinted at (way back before the internet, so I don't know if it was a local thing or something real) that the Warhammer Fantasy world was actually a single world within the 40K time line. The Old Ones had complete control over every thing that they saw. The Old Ones in the 40K Rogue Trader book were the Slann. The powers that they wield were closer to magic than anything else. Since magic relies on certain things to work "better', sort of like Fung Shui. The reason that the Warhammer World looks like an altered earth is that the way it is formed helps the flow of whatever the Old Ones used to create magic.
The reason that Chaos is centered on the polls of the Warhammer World is that a transport system used by the Old Ones (the same Eldar Webway) collapsed and allowed Chaos to enter into the world in a material way.
Another biggie was that Sigmar Heldenhammer could be one of the missing Primarchs of the two erased chapters. After all, he was never killed. He merely wandered off over the Worlds Edge mountains "and ascended to Godhood". Perhaps he was picked up by the Crusade to lead his chapter?
What about that? :)

[Jives]

Everything in this thread is so interesting, I hardly knew any of these secrets

someone mentioned something about brain boyz turning into snotlings, could any elaborate on that at all?

[johnny_trash]

Ok, here is mine.
Bare in mind that I have been marinated in 40K lore since 1987, but know almost nothing of Fantasy lore.
It had been hinted at (way back before the internet, so I don't know if it was a local thing or something real) that the Warhammer Fantasy world was actually a single world within the 40K time line. The Old Ones had complete control over every thing that they saw. The Old Ones in the 40K Rogue Trader book were the Slann. The powers that they wield were closer to magic than anything else. Since magic relies on certain things to work "better', sort of like Fung Shui. The reason that the Warhammer World looks like an altered earth is that the way it is formed helps the flow of whatever the Old Ones used to create magic.
The reason that Chaos is centered on the polls of the Warhammer World is that a transport system used by the Old Ones (the same Eldar Webway) collapsed and allowed Chaos to enter into the world in a material way.
Another biggie was that Sigmar Heldenhammer could be one of the missing Primarchs of the two erased chapters. After all, he was never killed. He merely wandered off over the Worlds Edge mountains "and ascended to Godhood". Perhaps he was picked up by the Crusade to lead his chapter?
What about that? :)

well...no. GW said many years ago that the two systems, 40k and WFB are completely separate. the WFB world is not a planet in 40k, and Sigmar is not a Primarch. Sorry.

[Psychosplodge]

someone mentioned something about brain boyz turning into snotlings, could any elaborate on that at all?


+1

[robertsjf]

The snotlings had access to a fungus that boosted their brain capacity and allowed them to build an ork empire and genetically engineer warrior slaves (orks) and worker slaves (grots). The orks then destroyed the brain fungus reducing the snotlings to, well, snotlings....

[Psychosplodge]

Cool,
Is this hinted at in the ork codices?

[Ultramarine1]

;) I am with you! I think the Mechanicus should find a fix for the Golden Throne, the Emperor will suvive, some of the "lost" Primachs will return & the Imperium will continue to hunt down the Forces of Evil, Xenos etc & we can game on into the 42nd & 43rd Millenium & live happy ever after in unending warfare!:cool:

that's nice, but it says in the rule book that the admech found problems in the golden throne that they cannot fix. in other words, no way.

[Sergeant Uriel Ventris]

I enjoy the secret of how Sigmar is one of the lost Primarchs... bwa ha ha!!

[Bigred]

I dont read it that way.

Malcador brought 12 people before the Emperor. 4 humans hand-picked for their loyalty, and 8 marines who he said had renounced their traitorous primarchs.

The 4 humans are the 4 founders of the Inquisition (2 of which are named in the Inquisitor PDF addon), while the 8 were told they had an important part to play battling chaos but it would always be secrecy.

That leads me to think Malcador grouped the 8 marines into the Grey Knights. Euphrati Keeler however is a mystery. perhaps she was one of the 2 unnamed founders of the Inquisition.

[person person]

well...no. GW said many years ago that the two systems, 40k and WFB are completely separate. the WFB world is not a planet in 40k, and Sigmar is not a Primarch. Sorry.

But it fits in so perfectly, it doesn't even matter. Although if GW didn't announce that it wouldn't be a secret!!! Thats why they probably said that.

[RogueGarou]

A lot of things have changed over the course of the various editions of 40k. The Grey Knights were originally the only product of the Second Founding, created in secret and from a source of gene stock generated by the Emperor from sources unknown. The Second Founding is now said to be the splitting of the loyal Legions into their smaller Successor Chapters and the Grey Knights were the only newly created Chapter. The 2nd Ed fluff indicated they were aligned with the Ordo Malleus but not exactly an arm of the Inquisition. They were also exclusively fielded in Terminator squads. The newer editions have filled them out considerably and I have enjoyed much of that expansion. I hope to see some more in the future Inquisition Codex.

All members of the Grey Knights were originally supposed to be psychic to some degree. I do not remember if this is still the case but it does not mean the original founders of the Chapter had to be psychic. The geneseed used for subsequent Grey Knights may have been psychically active to account for future Brothers being psychic.

Something I always found interesting about the Knights is that they had no Primarch and no direct lineage to a Primarch was ever noted. All of the Successor Chapters would still have a direct link to a Primarch. Further Chapters were either created from stored/tithed geneseed from the First Founding or Successor Chapters and would again draw a lineage from one of the Primarchs. I do not remember which rulebook but there is a reference to some Chapters being raised by using geneseed created by mixing the geneseed from multiple Chapters but they too would draw a bloodline to one or more Primarchs. The Grey Knights were always different. With the implication that these few Brothers were the founders of the Chapter and as such probably a source of geneseed for future Marines, the Knights become even more interesting as the bloodline of the Traitor Primarchs still flows through the most loyal, stalwart champions of the Emperor. It could also tie into the decision to not destroy the stored geneseed of the Traitor Legions while their homeworlds, those which were known and not already destroyed, were devastated and declared forbidden. It is said that not a single Grey Knight has even fallen from grace. Quite remarkable if their very essence holds the kernel of heresy, rebellion, and sedition that lit the galaxy aflame.

That said, I think the Eisenstein survivors and the other Marines are the original Grey Knights. It has been a good story so far. Besides, since the general rank and file are not aware of Daemons and the Powers of the Warp, who better to form the core of a force destined to combat them than warriors who have already come through the fire of that knowledge? If you want the most unswervingly loyal men to become your most elite cadre, then why not choose men who sustained while their brothers and father fell in rebellion about them? Those eight Marines are the most devout, steadfast warriors of the Emperor's Angels of Death. Surely that is reason enough to select them as the first Grey Knights. Quite a reputation for future Knights to uphold and what a secret to hide from the rest of the Imperium.

[Bigred]

My thoughts exactly RogueGarou.

I think that regardless of any battlefield heroics and oaths of fealty sworn by the Loyalist battle-brothers, there can be no more true test then to have one's very own Primarch and legion fall around you.

Only the most pure of heart could possibly resist, and that is what we see in Garro, Qruze, and the other 6. Its also somewhat poetic in a way. The traitor legions are time and again bested in single combat through the ages by Grey Knights with the best and purest of thier own-geneseed used against them.

As for them being psychic, we see in Flight of the Eisenstein, that many *odd* events happened around Garro. Perhaps it was a fraction of the Emperor's power watching over his true servents, or perhaps Garro and others possess nascent abilities they are not aware of on a conscious level.

[Faolain]

Ooh, I just thought of another one. I don't know if it's mentioned in the 40k universe, but in the Fantasy universe there's a 5th chaos god named Malal.

[Drew da Destroya]

Personally, I really like the idea of Qruze, Garro, and friends being the original Grey Knights, pretty much for all the reasons listed above by Bigred and RogueGarou.

Amerenda Kendel seems like she'll be the founder of the Ordo Malleus. She already has considerable experience hunting down rogue psykers and fighting Daemons. I would say she's the founder of the Ordo Hereticus, but that wasn't actually created until M36, after the Age of Aposty... unless they really want to Retcon things. Maybe Hereticus stayed underground until then?

Euphrate Keeler seems to be the first "Living Saint", although I doubt she would have been Canonized. Maybe she goes on to found the Ecclesiarchy? If not, she'd also be a good candidate for founder of the Ordo Malleus. She does go toe-to-toe with some Tzeentchian Daemon (I think it was a Flamer?) while still on Horus's flagship.

[Valkerie]

I think that the Alpha Legion are the Emperor's 'deniable assets'. Whenever something has to be done that wouldn't be approved of by the Imperium, they are sent to do it. When you think about what the Imperium does on a routine basis, (Exterminatus, witch hunts, genocidal wars against both aliens and its own citizens,) it makes you wonder what actions could be so terrible that they have to be hidden from everyone in this way.

[DarkLink]

I agree that the geneseed of the Grey knights coming from the only loyal marines to make it back to the Emperor is pretty cool. It emphasises the incorruptability of the Grey Knights. However, I like the idea that they were founded from the Emperor's genetic code itself.

All Grey Knights are powerful psykers because only powerful psykers are selected as potential canidates. It is part of what sets Grey Knights above all other space marines. Physically, they aren't really any stronger or faster than a normal Astartes. But they have even better training, better equipment, and every single one is a powerful psyker. In fact, the daemonhunters codex states that in order for a Grey knight to earn the honor of wearing Terminator Armor, they must control psychic power equal to or greater than that of a normal space marine Librarian. And after that, only the exceptional Grey knight can earn the rank of Brother Captain, and even fewer can earn the rank of Grand Master. Put into perspective, a Grand Master is like a Space Marine Chapter Master, with psychic powers comparable to Mephiston or Tigurius.

[Savark]

...with psychic powers comparable to Mephiston or Tigurius.

Doesn't it say in the marine codex Tigurius is the most powerful psyker in the imperium, but mephiphison yes. and malal MALAL omg i forgot about him!

[George Labour]

THe origin of the Void Dragon's prescence on Mars, and who the omnissiah isn't.

Also The Alpha legion's 'turning' to Chaos comes in as a close runner up to that.

Third would be it was a original founding, pre discovery of their primarch's homeworld, Dark Angel who possibly initiated the destruction of Caliban. As revealed in that one DA novel that came out a couple years ago.

[Ultramarine1]

Third would be it was a original founding, pre discovery of their primarch's homeworld, Dark Angel who possibly initiated the destruction of Caliban. As revealed in that one DA novel that came out a couple years ago.

Wait what?:confused: you totally lost me. whatabout an original founding?

[robertsjf]

Cool,
Is this hinted at in the ork codices?


1st ed WAAAAAGH the Orks book.....

[Triple Threat]

Dang I love this thread. I really like the fluff behind the Blood Angels' black rage and red thirst. They are so regal and yet almost chaosy at the same time. With names like the flesh tearers and blood drinkers, are they even still human or just beasts? I really hope this gets expanded in the next codex (fluff wise and rules wise).

The twin primarchs of the alpha legion are great too. Also, it seems like most of the fluff-ideas that claim to be the real truth behind the curtain ignore the tyranids. Are they an unknown variable? Are they running from something? Were they called to the imperium?:eek:

I recommend Rise of the Tau to everyone here. I offers some interesting conclusions to the 40k fluff and some great writing to boot. I wish my beloved Nids were in it (they get a cursory nod), but everyone else plays big roles in the End Times!!

[eldanesh4]

haha i tried reading Rise of the Tau...
i got about 80 chapters in, but then i saw that i had about 220+ chapters to go, and sorta lost patience :P
it's extraordinarily good, though, I really advise it too.

[Psychosplodge]

1st ed WAAAAAGH the Orks book.....
I may have to find one...

[[email protected]]

i recomend reading the other chapters too....leads up to an epic like 20 chapter battle, with many shockers

[LordVermagum]

Well, for me, the greatest secret in the 40k universe pertains to the Sensai(sp?)/Star-child continuity. It draws on a very visceral part of my psyche. Why wouldn't the Emperor spread his magnificent and perfect seed all over the galaxy. And it would be quite plausible for those progeny to be warp Nulls. Having them congregate toward the Veiled region would also make a great deal of sense as all accounts of that region make it unreachable by warp travel.

Has them Emperor discovered a way to both shield us from chaos and combat the Necrontyr. Given that almost every attempt to delve into the the Emperor's past leads you to the Old Ones, and the lack of Old Ones in the current 40K universe, I can confidently say the Emperor is in fact an Old One or their final and greatest achievement. Being the be all end all of the Old Ones, a master of foresight, and a meticulous planner, he would have a contingency plan for having his mortal coil un-entombed from upon some archeo-tech device.

Some have even postulated that Cypher is helping to gather them there and plans to feed the nulls back to the golden throne as a catalyst for the Star Child to truly become the Emperor reborn. Given the need for such powerful and exploitable beings as the Sensei would be, and the protection they could give the Star Child, who supposedly resides there as well, they would need a place like that to exist.

Contradictions to this line of thought do exist, but i dismiss them straight away with the following argument. While I thoroughly enjoyed the Soul Drinkers books (Making a 1500 pt army of them actually) the depiction of the veiled region in that series was so inaccurate that it even placed it on the wrong side of the galaxy and had it infested with the Necrons. But then again a place like that could very well be a great place to have a seat of Necron power lying in wait there as well.

The evidence in and of itself cannot be taken at face value, when even some of the fluff consists of fictitious recounting of events to cover up the 'truth' so as to continue leaving the masses in the dark. Further, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. There are known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns, why couldn't there be true truths, untrue truths, and untrue untruths.....

Sorry to go on like that, i got on a role (get it role instead of roll, haha), and all of the speculation makes my philosophical mind go bananas. If you understood any of it, have contradictory info, or more support for it let me know immediately, I have a star Child to resurect and a Sword to bury into the heart of infernal machine so I can get into the Black Library and find out what else the Eldar aren't telling us.

[RogueGarou]

The Sensei and Illuminati were very cool and interesting to me. Their demise and removal from the background was very unsatisfying. It is a partial report on the inside of the 3rd Ed or 4th Ed rulebook, I believe. That's all they get. They go from being a decent-sized article in one of the Realms of Chaos books to being wiped out as a report in a background page. Much like the Squats and Zoats, they received no final battle standing valiantly against their foes. Oh, well, perhaps that will be changed again in the future. And yes, the name "Squats" was a bad choice but having a Dwarven army in 40k is not. They just need to work on them having their own character. If you go into the Way Back Machine you can even see a few "Space Slann" were planned for 40k.

The Emperor's birth was described at one point as the amalgamation of all of the shamans of old earth created as they created mass suicide. Up until that point they would live their lives, fighting Chaos and trying to better the world, die and be reincarnated to keep up the good fight. Then they discovered that individually they could not triumph over humanity's base nature and the increase in power that nature gave the Warp. So they decided to become reincarnated at once, as one being. All of the shamans killed themselves and were reborn as the Emperor. I forget where I read that but I think it may have been one of the Realms of Chaos books also.

If you get a chance to read those two books, Slaves to Darkness and the Lost and the Damned, I really recommend it. They are good reads for the background story and now you can see a good bit of it playing out as the Horus Heresy books expand on some it.

[RogueGarou]

The greatest secrets I would like to know the answer to are about the II and XI Legions. What were their names? Their Primarchs? And what did they do which brought so much disgrace that they were totally stricken from all Imperial records, the Emperor's own sanctum (their statues are covered as noted in "The Lightning Tower" I think it was), and even from practically all mention in the Imperium? Even the brother Primarchs will not utter the names of these brothers.

The Traitor Legions were punished but it was nowhere near this kind of extreme sanction. And what happened to the stored geneseed of these Space Marines? Could that be a partial explanation of the Cursed Founding?

I read once that those two Legions were left intentionally blank to encourage/allow players to feel free to create their own Legions/Chapters. It has been over twenty years and I think everyone gets the hint that they can make their own Chapter as one of the approximately 1,000 Chapters out there. Let Dan Abnett or someone create these two lost Legions just not Gav Thorpe.

[jcflanker]

Here is my take on the whole secret stuff and fluff. Going back to the origins of 40k, the game was originally made to be a sci-fi version of Warhammer fantasy and evolved from there. That’s why you had sci-fi versions of elves, dwarves, lizard men and just added some unique aliens in the original Rouge Trader book. In RT there is no mention of the Horus Heresy this story came later in a different publication. As 40k evolved it separated and got further away from just being the sci-fi version of fantasy. That’s why it is now a completely different entity that’s why Squats were dropped and the Slan became the Old Ones. I read that Jervis realized the squats didn’t fit in and regretted not dropping them before 2nd edition came out. It looks like the 40k galaxy as we know it now really got started in the 3rd edition with the exception of the Tau.

Touching on the sense knights and star child; I love this story it should have stayed in the 40k fluff but no longer fits in. It makes me wonder why GW decided to reprint the trilogy knowing that the story no longer fits in its back story and no one and I mean no one including my favs Abnett and McNeil wrote the dystopian feel of the 41st millennium than Ian Watson.

According to my research the 2 lost legions that have expunged from imperial records have never been touched on by GW other than saying that they have been expunged from imperial records and a couple of mentions in the HH novels. I never heard them as being added for players to make up their own Legions or chapters. This seems entirely plausible.

Just a fun to know thing here: I was looking through the original Rouge Trader book this morning and in the credits the play testers are listed one of them is Peter Cantor (what’s Spanish for Peter people?).

My favorite secret is the Void Dragon on Mars

[[email protected]]

black library should just hire revenant fromm black library forums to be a writer

[jcflanker]

black library should just hire revenant fromm black library forums to be a writer

agreed, he can sure tell a story

[person person]

Just a fun to know thing here: I was looking through the original Rouge Trader book this morning and in the credits the play testers are listed one of them is Peter Cantor (what’s Spanish for Peter people?).

Pedro Kantor is named after Peter Cantor.


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Pedro_Kantor#Side_notes

[jcflanker]

Pedro Kantor is named after Peter Cantor.


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Pedro_Kantor#Side_notes

yeah thats waht i was getting at. I just stumbeled on the name on the credits page while looking at the RT book. I didn't know it was a known fact. I just thought it was a fun kinda "did you know" type of thing.

do you know if any other named characters are named after real people?

[person person]

Lion'el Jonson= Lionel Jonson

Found this too..

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tycho

Tycho appeared in the first battle report for the second edition of Warhammer 40,000 in which the Blood Angels player named his general "Tycho". Tycho was armed with his now characteristic weapons of a Bolter-Meltagun and the digi-lasers in the gauntlet on his left hand. During the course of the battle Tycho succumbed to a psychic blast from an Ork Weirdboy, and in game terms "killed". This was later incorporated into the character's background, as him having survived the attack grievously wounded. Tycho's special rules concerning his hate for Orks make him a good HQ choice for Blood Angels players when fighting Orks.

[jcflanker]

look what i found out

Konrad Curze, also known as Night Haunter Primarch of the Night Lords. The character's name is inspired by the novel 'Heart of Darkness' by Joseph Conrad, where a former ivory trader in the Congo named Kurtz rules over the native population as a charismatic demigod. The book was later adapted into the film Apocalypse Now

[Drew da Destroya]

Similarly, Ghazkull was originally a warboss from Andy Chambers' army. I think he did something that generated random powers, and that's where the Adamantium Skull came from.

[Prometheus]

I don't know if I have a favorite secret but I know alot of them. (I have read almost every single Black Library Book, Codex and Rulebook GW has ever made. I also am close friends with a store manager and several employees of a GW store.) Some are more commonly know then others but all are considered "secrets"

SPOILER ALERT!

- The Deciever evolved the Tau (specfically the Etherals).

- The Void Dragon is trapped at the heart of Mars (which is a Blackstone Fortress) and is the Machine God.

- The Outsider is the Hive Mind (If I had a favorite this would be mine.)

- The Tyranids seen so far are nothing but a mere sliver of the total swarm that is slowly completely surronding the 40k galaxy and will consume it whole and move on to find new biomass until more life evolves in the 40k galaxy again. (thats right sorry Space Marines, Tyranids win in the end... well them and Necrons as they have no Biomass to eat.)

- The Eldar are not a dieing race, most of them are just hidding in the webway.

- The Dark Eldar do not worship chaos, they actually hate it more then regular Eldar. Thats why they kill and cause pain, its to saticfy Slannesh so she/he doesn't go after them.

- The Grey Knights were started by the Loyalsit surviours of the Traitor Leagues of the Istaan V massacre.

- Half of the Dark Angels fell to chaos during the Heresy. Those are the ones called the Fallen and are still hunted to this day by the Loyalist Dark Angels.

- The Old Ones created the Eldar, the Orks and several other races to fight the C'Tan. Then they created humans and with that humans emotions created the 3 orginal Chaos Gods (Khorne, Nurlge and Tzeentch) and they killed the Old Ones.

- Slaanesh will eventually over power all the other chaos gods (as she/he feeds on desire and they all desire things alot) and either subjigate them or kill them.

- The Emperor is stuck in his human form and once dead will be re-born as the Star Child in the Warp he will kill all the Chaos Gods and bring peace to the Warp.

- The Necrons will eventually activate all the Plyons across the galaxy and shut the warp off from the material world forever, instantly killing/damaging ever pysker in the universe.

There a few more I know I'm forgetting but no biggie, I'm sure these ones will have people thinking enough as it is.

[person person]

That blew my mind...

[rsheridan5]

- The Tyranids seen so far are nothing but a mere sliver of the total swarm that is slowly completely surronding the 40k galaxy and will consume it whole and move on to find new biomass until more life evolves in the 40k galaxy again. (thats right sorry Space Marines, Tyranids win in the end... well them and Necrons as they have no Biomass to eat.)

- The Dark Eldar do not worship chaos, they actually hate it more then regular Eldar. Thats why they kill and cause pain, its to saticfy Slannesh so she/he doesn't go after them.

- The Necrons will eventually activate all the Plyons across the galaxy and shut the warp off from the material world forever, instantly killing/damaging ever pysker in the universe.


Where did you get these choice little bits of information?
I would like to read the sources for these if you can remember them. I have encountered the Necrons while reading, but nothing that ever really explains them.
And while I have suspected that piece about the nids, mostly, when I read about them, they were the barely understood enemy.
The part about the Eldar makes sense, considering that Slannesh really wants all the Eldar souls. Close contact with Chaos would just serve him lunch reagrdless of any appeasement attempts, which is why I suppose they live in the Webway.

[Drax]

Ok maybe i'm just being a little silly but I would like to think that the rest of the founding marines for the gray knights would be Gravel(i so butcher his first name) Loken, and Saul Travitz they were some of my favorite characters I was so angry at the end galaxy in flames

[miteyheroes]

[FONT="Georgia"]- The Deciever evolved the Tau (specfically the Etherals).

Except possibly it wasn't him, and was the Eldar. See Xenology. Of course, there is some sort of link between him and the Harlequins. And Xenology could well all be lies.



- The Void Dragon is trapped at the heart of Mars (which is a Blackstone Fortress) and is the Machine God.


Whilst The Dragon is definitely at the heart of Mars and inspired the Machine God, I'm not convinced he's in a Blackstone Fortress. I thought the Blackstones were the Swords of Vaul, forged by the Old Ones to fight the C'tan?



- The Outsider is the Hive Mind (If I had a favorite this would be mine.)


Except the Hive Mind is a psychic force (Synapse is a psychic power, for example) and the C'tan can't do psychic ****. Also, note how the nids steered well clear of the Outsider, presumably due to his psychic dampening interrupting the Hive Mind.



- The Tyranids seen so far are nothing but a mere sliver of the total swarm that is slowly completely surronding the 40k galaxy and will consume it whole and move on to find new biomass until more life evolves in the 40k galaxy again. (thats right sorry Space Marines, Tyranids win in the end... well them and Necrons as they have no Biomass to eat.)


It's certainly possible.



- The Eldar are not a dieing race, most of them are just hidding in the webway.


Except that a lot of them DID die. That's how Slaanesh was born, the souls of the Eldar merging (not all that different to the Emperor being the souls of the Shamans, when you think about it...) Of course, they may be regrowing their numbers.



- The Dark Eldar do not worship chaos, they actually hate it more then regular Eldar. Thats why they kill and cause pain, its to saticfy Slannesh so she/he doesn't go after them.


Oh totally, they're called the Soul Thieves. Their aim is to gather souls to appease Slaanesh by letting Slaanesh eat the stolen souls rather than their own.



- The Grey Knights were started by the Loyalsit surviours of the Traitor Leagues of the Istaan V massacre.


It's certainly possible.



- Half of the Dark Angels fell to chaos during the Heresy. Those are the ones called the Fallen and are still hunted to this day by the Loyalist Dark Angels.


Unless you believe the contradictory accounts that the Fallen are the ones who DIDN'T turn to Chaos. Which is a much cooler story, IMHO. But hey.



- The Old Ones created the Eldar, the Orks and several other races to fight the C'Tan. Then they created humans and with that humans emotions created the 3 orginal Chaos Gods (Khorne, Nurlge and Tzeentch) and they killed the Old Ones.


The Old Ones disappeared before humanity was created/evolved. The Old Ones were destroyed by Enslavers, which are a very different type of warp creature to the Chaos Gods. On the other hand, the Old One / C'tan war and the death of the Old Ones MAY have been responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs, so they may have pushed our world down the path that eventually led to the evolution of humans. But they didn't do it directly.



- Slaanesh will eventually over power all the other chaos gods (as she/he feeds on desire and they all desire things alot) and either subjigate them or kill them.


It's possible. Mind you, it's possible any of the Chaos Gods might win...



- The Emperor is stuck in his human form and once dead will be re-born as the Star Child in the Warp he will kill all the Chaos Gods and bring peace to the Warp.


Technically the Star Child already exists in the Warp. But yes, it's being shackled by the Golden Throne and would be more powerful and could be re-born if the Throne was destroyed.



- The Necrons will eventually activate all the Plyons across the galaxy and shut the warp off from the material world forever, instantly killing/damaging ever pysker in the universe.


That's their plan! Of course, it may not come to fruition. Fundamentally the conflict is Psykers vs Nulls, and there are a lot more Psykers than there are Nulls...

[Grumpy Ripper]

That the empeor has been reborn and is the hive mind and his aim to consume his old host body to fully relase his power so the nids can destroy chaos as he engineerd...... What yes its random fan dream but hey


seroiusly i think its that garvil loken was one of the 1st grey knights.

[jcflanker]

That the empeor has been reborn and is the hive mind and his aim to consume his old host body to fully relase his power so the nids can destroy chaos as he engineerd...... What yes its random fan dream but hey


seroiusly i think its that garvil loken was one of the 1st grey knights.

I thought Loken was killed by Abbadon

[ThePov]

I thought Loken was killed by Abbadon
He was killed, on Istvaan III, if I recall correctly. I think it was Qruze who got away, which is a shame, because he's kind of a crochety old man, where as Loken was a total BA.

[jcflanker]

He was killed, on Istvaan III, if I recall correctly. I think it was Qruze who got away, which is a shame, because he's kind of a crochety old man, where as Loken was a total BA.

i pulled this from lexicanum about Loken however i don't remember reading this.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Garviel_Loken

"Although we are lead to believe that Loken perished in the final bombardment of Isstvan III, there has never been any factual statement either way supporting his unfortunate demise or his survival of a second bombardment as the last we know of him he was trapped under a layer of rubble as a Titan broke one of the walls of the building they were in. "

[Tyrsday]

Malal is one of my favorites too. They somewhat, sort of, bit of a stretch, reference him in the new Chaos Marines codex with the Sons of Malice on one of the rogue gallery pages who have his color scheme: quartered white and black.

If the Alpha Legion were to serve any of the Chaos gods, he is the one I could most see them worship.

[firestorm]

This is one of the best threads about 40k Background I've ever read, well done to all the contributors.

With regards to Prometheus' points about the Tau and the Tyranids and the Ad Mech, I think miteyheroes' responses kind of clear those up.

Having said that, there still remains the issues that the Deceiver and the Laughing God ARE the same being, in which case the Harlequins are controlled by the C'tan.

I think the problem with this is that there are references in certain fluff that the Eldar know of the C'tan (through the war on heaven) and are opposed to their ressurection and the Necrons. So for me it doesn't totally add up that the C'tan control the Eldar - though we are talking about the Deceiver ;) possibly...

Although it's not plausible The Outcast IS the Hive Mind, I think there's the plausible scenario that the Necrons/C'tan created the Tyranids - a lot of Necron fluff has it that they went in to their hibernation partly because a 'plague' was consuming the galaxy. I think that this plague WAS the Tyranids, created by the Necrons to defeat the races of the Old Ones, and after consuming the galaxy they drifted off, now millions of years later they've returned now the galaxy is teeming with life.

I'm aware that there's problems with this: why would the Null-psyker C'tan/Necrons create a psyker-ked race? And they hate ALL life, surely they'd hate the 'Nids too... I used to interpret it that the Old Ones, almost extinct and losig against the Necrons/C'tan, created the Tyranids as a desperate last attempt to fight their nemises... But, again, why then would the Hive Fleets avoid Necron Tomb worlds?

Finally, with regards to Xenology and the Necrons, I suppose it is plausible that the whole set up was to fill the INquisitor with false info and lies; the way I always interpreted the ending was that the Necron had been using the Inquisitor's studies in order to find out about the various races of the galaxy - after all at the end it says 'know thine enemy, for you are already known to him...' ;)


With regards to the true nature of the Emperor, the whole 'theology', real-nature of the 40k deities has always been a real interest of mine. I like the portrayal in False Gods that Horus sees a vision of a giant, golden being.

Now, although it has been very plausibly put forward here by several that the Emperor IS an Old One, my way of interpreting it was that the Emperor was not literally this alien or divine being, but rather a manifestation of the psychic (divine?) consciousness that created and guided humanity. Hence you get Saints etc in the 40k background, who are similarly individuals possessed (for want of a better word) by this consciousness (to a far lesser degree than the Emperor) enough to lead humans, when neccessary, through difficulat and dark instances.

And, similarly, I've held that it is the same for the other races - the Eldar have their gods which are the 'overseers' of their race, and are able to call upon their psychic/'divine' spirit/form/whatever when creating their Avatars...

Then you've got Gork and Mork...

I think that this could fit in with the Old Ones, as they created these and other races, my interpretation is that they created remarkable, god-like protoforms of these races, that are the beings held as the 'gods' of their races.

So powerful were these beings that their abilities went beyond their physical forms, so they eventually existed in the immaterium, from where they have intvervened and over-seen their 'children' races.

To be honest, I see the flaws in this - e.g. why didn't the Eldar gods intervene to prevent their fall? - and it's probably not as plausible as the Emperor simply being an Old One.

But this idea of their being a 'presence', 'spirit', psychic consciousness or whatever from these 'gods' that can still inhabit individuals (e.g. Sebastian Thor, Celestine, Gazghull Thraka, etc) and through them lead their races to greatness.

[Grumpy Ripper]

I thought Loken was killed by Abbadon

He left buried under a wall. Also in a interview i forget with who, said they plan to do more stories with gravil.

the way i think he survives is rylonor (sp) the EC dread that was guarding the underground hanger comes and saves him before hes blown up, or finds him after a partial and not througher bombardment.

[Duke]

This thread has gotten out of control in an awesome way! great job to all the contributors.

If the 40k Universe progressed, what direction would it take? Based on all the 'secrets,' we have discussed.

Duke

[Dark_Templar]

This thread has gotten out of control in an awesome way! great job to all the contributors.

If the 40k Universe progressed, what direction would it take? Based on all the 'secrets,' we have discussed.

Duke

Tyranids win. The end.

[ThePov]

This thread has gotten out of control in an awesome way! great job to all the contributors.

If the 40k Universe progressed, what direction would it take? Based on all the 'secrets,' we have discussed.

Duke
It won't. I wrote a long post on it in another thread, but basically, the 40K universe is set up so that it doesn't need to move forward, and thus it won't. It's already so vast that it has a functionally inexhaustable supply of secrets to uncover and wars to fight.

That said, logically, the mythology currently suggests that this is the end of the Age of the Imperium. It won't go without a fight, obviously, and there would likely be a ctalclysmic battle, the specifics of which vary depending on which of the many Doomsday theories you subscribe to (War in Heaven, Tyranids, Orks, Massive Chaos Incursion, all of the above, other), but it is without doubt that the Imperium as we know it would collapse and galactic anarchy would reign for a time.

(This is where a good knowledge of history, sociology, literature, and mythology come in handy, fun declarations like that)

[RogueGarou]

I am curious about the undisclosed Chaos power that is Cypher's patron. Could it be Malal? The Emperor? A truly unknown Chaos God? The Watchers in the Dark? Who knows but whoever it is has got some smooth moves.

[xomntec]

Going to recycle a post of mine (with some edits: namely cutting most of it it out) because I think it is best here:

I have been particularly interested in Arhra (The Fallen Phoenix lord of the Striking Scorpions).

I do think it is very likely that the Incubi are the disciples of Arhra. What makes him so interesting is what caused him turn on Asurmen/Craftworld Eldar/his Disciples etc? Was it a fault of the way of the warrior or something inherently dark in the tradition of fighting he created? How and why did he end up in Commorragh...and then why did he reestablish a Temple to create an fighting tradition very similar to the Striking Scorpions but with an emphasis on protection rather than stalking like his protogé Kharandras? Is there something that connected him to the survivors in Commorragh more than the Craftworld Eldar?

[Dark_Templar]

So all of these things have been written about in one way or another, but do we think that GW have actually thought about where they would take their ideas, or did they just think it was something cool to say at the time, without worrying about following it up later?

[GM Rex Nihilo]

My favorite is the Horus Heresy story that implicates the dark secret of the origins of the Grey Knights.

That the founding members are the handful of Traitor Legion marines who stayed loyal in the face of their entire Legions and Primarchs turning traitor around them.

That would mean the Grey Knight's geneseed is a cocktail of individuals like the Death Guard's Garro, the Luna Wolves' Qruze, and others like them.

Beat that one!

I saw the title and this too came to mind but alas it is also your favourite! This fluff is based on the 'Flight of he Einstein' (sp?) but it is not 100% known the actual origins of our beloved Grey Knights. But this is as cool of a theory as there is out there. The other theory is they are the geneseed of the Emperor himself!

[dmcq]

I cant see the GK's being the Emperors Genetic Progeny. Think about it, The Fluff says that the Primarchs were created from the Emp's genetic material and the Legions were created from the primarchs via a similiar process. Following that thread then the GK's would infact be the equal to the Primarchs!!!

I really think that they were created from the Eisinstein survivors geanseed with a pinch of psyker.

also if they were created with the emperors genes, how would that effect the sensei/star child situation??


"The Emperor protects those who protect themselves..."

[Mike X]

I cant see the GK's being the Emperors Genetic Progeny. Think about it, The Fluff says that the Primarchs were created from the Emp's genetic material and the Legions were created from the primarchs via a similiar process. Following that thread then the GK's would infact be the equal to the Primarchs!!!

I really think that they were created from the Eisinstein survivors geanseed with a pinch of psyker.

also if they were created with the emperors genes, how would that effect the sensei/star child situation??

"The Emperor protects those who protect themselves..."

See, the problem I have with the Eisenstein crew being used to create the GKs is the 'making a copy of a copy' problem.

We have the Emperor, who is the original. The primarchs are, essentially, copies of the Emperor. They're very powerful, but not more powerful than the Emperor himself.

Then there's the Astartes, who are copies of the primarchs. They are also powerful, but no match against a primarch.

So if you took Astartes and used them to create something... they'd be less than. And from what I know of GKs, they're equal to (or better than) standard Astartes.

[person person]

I like to think that Garro, Qruze and the guys were just that awesome.

[Kelmon]

I think, that Arhra walked the path of the shadowly stalker as every scorpion does. But he succumbed to murder and thats what the scorpions dont do.
In my opinion he murdered someone, who threatened him or who did some pain on him - i think it was a revenge for something being done. And hei liked to kill that someone and he did it again and again and again - and was expulsed from eldar society...
The DE on the other sider warmly welcomed the murder and it was very easy to build a temple for other murders - but somehow the Inccubi protect the de by offering the souls of the victims to HER ...

[Lindargo]

Has anyone thought that without psykers the World Eaters shouldn't be able to accurately warp travel???

[ThePov]

Well, I always took that to mean they had no COMBAT Psykers within the legion's ranks. All the Expiditions would have astropaths, who were not a part of the Legion, or even the military.

[Skragger]

My personal favourite is that the Emperor is really a jar of Cheez Wiz that was left around for SO long it became self-aware and sentient.. and yet oddly hasn't passed its experation date...

[Dark_Templar]

My personal favourite is that the Emperor is really a jar of Cheez Wiz that was left around for SO long it became self-aware and sentient.. and yet oddly hasn't passed its experation date...

I am pretty sure FW are addressing that issue in Siege of Vraks 4...

[Drew da Destroya]

I think, that Arhra walked the path of the shadowly stalker as every scorpion does. But he succumbed to murder and thats what the scorpions dont do.
In my opinion he murdered someone, who threatened him or who did some pain on him - i think it was a revenge for something being done. And hei liked to kill that someone and he did it again and again and again - and was expulsed from eldar society...
The DE on the other sider warmly welcomed the murder and it was very easy to build a temple for other murders - but somehow the Inccubi protect the de by offering the souls of the victims to HER ...

Well, the Scorpions didn't actually become stalkers until Karandras came along and took over for Arhra. From what I understood of it, Karandras was the one that tempered the Scorpions from being cold-blooded killing machines, and turned them into more disciplined, stealth-oriented killing machines.

It seems like Arhra was pretty much a psychopath, and was crafting his Scorpions along those same lines. It seems likely that some of the first Incubi were Scorpions who crossed over with Ahra. I do like the idea of Arhra killing someone in a non-war setting, deciding he liked the rush, and going on a total unstoppable killing spree, ending in the destruction of the Dire Avenger-dude's temple. I think he killed the Dragon Phoenix Lord, too, right?

[Duke]

I just want to know what happened to the Warp Spiders PHoenix Lord... And a Phoenix Lord for Shinning spears would just be great fun.

[RogueGarou]

The World Eaters not having Navigators does not necessarily preclude them from warp travel. They could just throw themselves on the tides of the warp and show up wherever the tide takes them. After Skalathrax the Legion disintegrated and became mostly roving hordes of killers. They don't have much left in the way of grand schemes and objectives. If they show up and slaughter a bunch of Orks or humans or Eldar, they are happy and Khorne has his skulls and blood.

Since they are smaller warbands offering their service essentially as mercenaries, they may barter transit from other Legions or warbands in exchange for their strong arms. Their true goal is simply to kill and die for Khorne and if Joe the Black Legion captain can put them on a ship and drop them in the middle of some hell hole and cause some trouble or fulfill some role for him, everyone is happy.

Perhaps they capture psykers/Navigators for use. Once they get where they are going, the unfortunate psyker becomes a glorious sacrifice to Khorne and they have to find another pilot.

Unlike the other Traitor Legions, the World Eaters may have a bigger problem than transit about the galaxy. Reinforcements. The Thousand Sons do not have such a great need for new troops but they also do not have a means of creating more Rubric Marines. Fabius Bile offers his services creating new geneseed and Marines. The Iron Warriors create their own new Marines. All of the Legions can recruit from the same pool as the Red Corsairs, the newly fallen Marines. But the World Eaters do not have a centralized command structure or location (that we know of) to indoctrinate and implant, both geneseed and their cybernetic aggressiveness implants. They might be reduced to individual leaders bartering for a couple of Bile's Marines or maybe nabbing some other Legion's or Chapter's Marines and indoctrinating them within the warband. That means some warbands will be better able to replenish losses. That kind of haphazard recruiting means they would have much less control of the new recruits and what their geneseed contains. The Alpha Legion, for example, could be in a much better position to recruit and train their new Marines in stealthy arts, even selecting troops for their particular innate skills. The World Eaters may be just daubing blood all over the new guy's armor and kicking him out the door.

[Lord Anubis]

The Thousand Sons do not have such a great need for new troops but they also do not have a means of creating more Rubric Marines.

I actually penned a story a year or three back that suggests the way the Thousand Sons get reinforcements is just by putting the "dead" armor on some other poor sap. Their soul essentially rekindles the spell and becomes the new prisoner of the armor.

:eek:

[RogueGarou]

Very cool idea, Lord Anubis. While I was typing the post up there, I had the thought of Ahriman or possibly a cabal of Thousand Sons sorcerors taking it upon themselves to create more Rubric Marines. The thought of captured or even allied Marines being turned into soulless undead warriors jumped into my head. It even kind of made sense given the nature of Tzeentch. A warlord gathers his force and has acquired the services of a Thousand Sons sorceror and his retinue. While preparing for a battle, or at the first sign that the battle is not going well for the naive warlord, a spell is cast. When the dust has settled, the enemy is faced with a changed foe. Eldritch green glows from within the armor of the Chaos Marines as they march slowly forward. The fallen Marines rising to join the ranks and moving stiffly but so silently forward. Moving as if in a daze with no hint of human flourish or error. Not one step broken. Moving inevitably forward, firing and reloading their boltguns mechanically; a kind of muscle memory from muscles which have been reduced to ash and dust locked eternally within a ceramite sarcophagus. The line steps closer to the stunned enemy when among their number one or a few individuals move forward, commanding the rank and file. And they begin to move with purpose again.

[King Wibble]

The secret I enjoy most is one that appears in the little HH paperback, which BL did a run of 1500 copies, called 'The Lightning Tower' by Dan Abnett on one side and 'The Dark King' by Graham McNeill on the other, where it says about the 2 missing Primarchs. If you are looking for the story it's in 'The Lightning Tower', pg 9.

Spoiler!!!

As Rogal Dorn is preparing the defence of the Imperial Palace after the heresy is known to all, he is musing to himself in the grounds as he prepares himself for the time when he may have to fight Horus, his brother.

"The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No-one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"

Now, we can rule out that these two Primarchs were purged for being mutants, after all; Magnus, Angron, Sanguinus. It's far more likely they didn't want to play conquer the galaxy with/for daddy and like Angron and Russ who fought with the Emperor when they first met, had a deep grudge. Either that or when the Emperor found them they were already gone to chaos. Either way the text heavily suggests they didn't follow the ideal of the Emperor's Primarchs, were destroyed or sent into exile, and that their story is known to their brothers as a warning unheeded which implies they turned against them.

[person person]

Awesome.

[RogueGarou]

Yep, I've read that one. Looking at it, though, it implies that at one time something had been in place on those plinths. Statues of the Primarchs would be the obvious answer. What happened to them, though, is a mystery. The geneseed of the Traitor Legions was preserved and is still stored on Terra. The geneseed and all records of the two missing chapters were deleted or destroyed. Or covered up? Could they have encountered a xenos race that destroyed them? Did they join an alien culture? Lost in the warp? Fell to Chaos? That might explain why the Primarchs know bout the warp but the rank and file Marines do not at the start of the Heresy. Did they take their Marines and rebel to form their own fiefdoms? It would have to be something tragic, something so venomous to the nascent Imperium that it had to be sept under the rug completely. Or did they become the Emperor's red right hand? A force carrying out missions so terrible that the Emperor could not be associated with them at all.

Could those Legions have been part of the core of the Grey Knights? The Legion of the Damned? It is pretty much accepted and acknowledged that the Legion of the Damned are at least partly the Fire Hawks, I think it was the Fire Hawks mentioned in the various Codicii, but could the Fire Hawks just be the latest recruits? There are lots of possibilities but the Heresy books have held the only information and it has been scant.

[Majorcrash]

well i don even have a guess, but then where are the two legions. All primarchs had legions created and opperational before they were found. So what ever happened had to include them as well?

[Drew da Destroya]

I don't think that GW will ever revel what actually happened to the 2 missing legions, but it's certainly fun to speculate.

I like the thought that Sigmar is one of the lost Primarchs, who decided that he's just going to rule the planet he landed on (Warhammer World), but that would leave an entire Legion of Space Marines running around leaderless, and I'm pretty sure that someone would have mentioned that during the Heresy.

[Majorcrash]

I think the problem is that GW cant come up with a plausible reason, as turning traitor, or mutant, or just refuse to play are covered by other legions. And getting lost into the warp wouldnt be reason enough to shun them. Ships got lost all the time and people didnt just quit talking about them. The only reason I can think would be enough to maybe cause them to be stricken from the records, is if they surrendered due to cowardice. Although this happening to two legions sounds kinda far fetched.

[Aenir]

perhaps the 2 legions fought eachother and completely wiped eachother out?

[soapy]

My favourite secret is also the missing Primrachs.

Back in the day it was widely considered (well rumoured at least) that one of the missing was indeed Sigmar. Back in those days the Warhammer world was part of the 40k universe permanently cut of from the rest of the galaxy by the massive warp storm caused by the collapse of the polar warp gates (which happened due to the birth of Slaanesh, a constant in both backgrounds).

Since then of course, with the advent of computer games and the various licenses needed to produce them the two systems have been forever sundered. It was explained to me (and I don't know how accurately) that if the Warhammer world was part of the 40k universe then giving someone a licence to create a Warhammer computer game practically gave them free reign to do a 40k game as it was all part of the same 'game world' and so, for purely real world reasons, Warhammer became a separate entity and now Sigmar's mysterious origins are being explained away in the Time of Legends books, and thus a potential primarch disappears.

I've often wondered as to the fate of the legion spawned from the missing Primarch's seed though. There would have been Terrans fighting as members of these legions even before the missing were found (if they ever were) so what happened to them? The implications of the lightening tower sequence is that the missing were found and re-united with their legions only for something terrible to have happened. The Sigilite's words 'they are lost to us' may mean no more than a physical loss. Spiritally still loyal but just gone. With each legion operating it's own expeditionary fleets it is not beyond imagining to think that at least one of them was lost in the warp, the other could have suffered the same fate or may have just been wiped out. Worlds seem to be destroyed with an alarming frequency in the 40k universe and there is no reason that it couldn't have been the enemy doing the destroying this time. Although these are quite reasonable explanations neither explain why the legions were expunged from the records.

My person feeling is that the gene seed, and not the primarchs necessarily, was corrupt and at some time early in the crusade, if not before, the legions exhibited signs of gross mutation or danger and had to be destroyed utterly by their fellows. The primarchs may never even have be found to be reunited.

Anyway, it's a pair of stories I love to see as part of the HH line but am resigned to never finding out.

Great thread and great contributions from all involved.

Soaps.

[dmcq]

I've been thinking. Why do the Lost Primarchs and thier legions have to have turned from terra? Perhaps the Emp got them to do something like travel to another galaxy or put them in storage for some future event?

According to the Collected Visions books wasn't the Emperor working at creating a Webway or somesuch while most of the heresy was going on and thats why he didn't get involved until the end of the battle of terra. Perhaps they were involved in that.

I think also that at least Dorn and Horus must have known the two primarchs and thier legions as both thought about using them during the heresy, so therefore they must have been at least active.





The Emperor protects those who protect themselves.....

[Majorcrash]

just to throw a little more mud in the soup. What about the Ultramarines, Guliiman wasnt a primarch orginally. Could there be something there. The Ultramarines were always described as the largest, maybe its because they husbanded there resources better or maybe they combined some legion together?

[RogueGarou]

Guilliman not being a Primarch was pretty early in Rogue Trader as I recall. The ideas were still coalescing and things were coming together. Since that time, it has been noted that Space Marines commanded fleet and army elements assigned to their battle forces. Kind of like a coalition force with the Marines as having overall command. Even over Titan Legions and other allied forces like the Mechanicus. One person, or a group of people, having that degree of command over that many millions of men under arms is a big contributing factor to the extent of the Heresy. If Horus had only had command of his Legion or a portion of that Legion, he could have been stopped by the Navy, Army, Titan Legion(s), and other allied forces railing against turning from the Emperor. Instead, the leaders of all of those groups assigned to him were beneath him in the chain of command and were conditioned to accept his word as law. What is worse is that he was very smarmy and influenced those men and women and won them into his confidence. Many went willingly into rebellion.

Some other early ideas from Rogue Trader made the Sisters of Battle even more crazed than they are depicted now. There were also more xenos species involved in the galaxy at large. In the main Rogue Trader rulebook there is a kind of cool planet which exists in a stable Warp Storm. The storm abates every 100 years and for a few days the Imperium swoops down on the planet to remind the inhabitants of their duty to the Imperium. Tithes are collected, heads are busted, Imperial Law is restored just before the Imperial forces evacuate the area and leave the locals to go back into the storm and resume their normal lawless lives. I seem to recall the drawings accompanying that description in the book had a very Wild West feel to them including a wanted poster behind a Marine and a tumbleweed blowing by a land speeder.

Some other old ideas involved Power Armor. Anyone could put on Power Armor and the Black Carapace and neural interfaces were not required to operate the suit. Dreadnoughts were larger suits of powered armor like Power and Terminator Armor. Models could have miniature anti-gravity units attached to their weapons and equipment. Called suspensors, these devices allowed a single Marine or Guardsman to carry a heavy weapon with much reduced encumberance.

One thing Iwould like to see return from the old Rogue Trader days is the Terminator Assault Harness. It was a set of launchers affixed to Terminator armor which would fire out a brace of grenades as they charged or were charged. Giving Termies the boost of having assault and defensive grenades might help them become big and scary again without letting them carry a Cyclone, assault cannon, and Storm Shield.

[HammerofVaul]

My favorite "secret" would have to be the theory that the Emperor is actually Malal. It's never been supported by fluff, but makes sense if you think about it. Since Malal's sole purpose was to oppose the other 4 chaos gods, and what has the emperor done if not be the ultimate opposition to the other 4? It's all just theory, but an interesting one.

As for the laughing god and the Deceiver being the same,I disagree. Both Cegorach and the deceiver have been referred to as such, it's possible that Cegorach started calling himself this in mockery of the deceiver, as mockery is a big thing for him as taunting Slaanesh is basically his main pastime. Also the Deceiver has no ability to use the webway, as GW has said only the eldar, dark eldar and thousand sons led by Ahriman have access to it.

Concerning the Outsider, the he was driven mad and supposedly trapped in a "Dyson Sphere" by the Harlequins.

Fantastic thread btw, has been extremely insightful.

[miteyheroes]

As for the laughing god and the Deceiver being the same,I disagree. Both Cegorach and the deceiver have been referred to as such, it's possible that Cegorach started calling himself this in mockery of the deceiver, as mockery is a big thing for him as taunting Slaanesh is basically his main pastime. Also the Deceiver has no ability to use the webway, as GW has said only the eldar, dark eldar and thousand sons led by Ahriman have access to it.

My view is that it's rather more complex than that. The Eldar folklore refers to two distinct set of events- the War in Heaven cycle and the Birth of Slaanesh cycle. The references to the Laughing God in the War In Heaven stories are meaning The Deceiver (making the Gods fight amongst each other and so on); the references to the Laughing God in the Birth Of Slaanesh stories mean Cegorach. The same thing happens with other divine figures- in the War In Heaven cycle they are meaning C'tan or Old Ones whilst in the Birth Of Slaanesh cycle they are meaning Gods (powerful warp entities).

So. Why is this? From a Real World perspective it's because they wrote all the Eldar Mythology as a single coherent body in the late 80s/early 90s, and then when they wanted to introduce the C'tan as a major race in 2002 they shoe-horned them into the pre-existing background by stealing the Eldar Mythology. But didn't do it very well, as the C'tan stories don't really fit into the Birth Of Slaanesh cycle. But let's ignore that fact, and try to explain it in-game...

Well. We know that psychic urges create Gods (powerful warp entities). The mortal race's love of warfare created Khorne. The Late-Eldar obsession with pleasure created Slaanesh. The ork obsession with weapons created Gork, and the ork obsession with cunning created Mork. And so on.

So we can explain the existence of the two set of divinities in the two sets of Eldar stories fairly simply. Following the War In Heaven, the Early-Eldar rose to power over the galaxy. They told mythologised tales of the War, refering to the Deceiver as the Laughing God and calling all the other C'tan and Old Ones "Gods". However over the 60 million years that followed, many of the Middle-Eldar forgot the historical basis of the tales and started treating them more and more religiously- praying to the "Gods" depicted in the tales. The Eldar are a highly psychic race, and by focussing their belief on these imagined beings they brought them into existance as real warp-entity Gods. Thus the mythologised view of the C'tan and Old Ones gave birth to actual Gods. And by the time of the Birth Of Slaanesh, The Laughing God was a real God, no longer just another name for the Deceiver.

So Cegorach the Laughing God worshipped by the Harlequins is not actually the Deceiver, although Cegorach did originate as a myth about the Deceiver.

[HammerofVaul]

So we can explain the existence of the two set of divinities in the two sets of Eldar stories fairly simply. Following the War In Heaven, the Early-Eldar rose to power over the galaxy. They told mythologised tales of the War, refering to the Deceiver as the Laughing God and calling all the other C'tan and Old Ones "Gods". However over the 60 million years that followed, many of the Middle-Eldar forgot the historical basis of the tales and started treating them more and more religiously- praying to the "Gods" depicted in the tales. The Eldar are a highly psychic race, and by focussing their belief on these imagined beings they brought them into existance as real warp-entity Gods. Thus the mythologised view of the C'tan and Old Ones gave birth to actual Gods. And by the time of the Birth Of Slaanesh, The Laughing God was a real God, no longer just another name for the Deceiver.

So Cegorach the Laughing God worshipped by the Harlequins is not actually the Deceiver, although Cegorach did originate as a myth about the Deceiver.

An interesting perspective, but the thing is that Cegorach doesn't exist in the warp. the reason that he was able to avoid Slaanesh and destruction was that he did not have a presence in the warp, as he hid himself entirely in the webway, so I think that rules him out as a warp deity.

I believe the Eldar deities are of two possible origins. the first is that they are old ones who greatly favored the Eldar above the other created races, and abandoned the other old ones to be gods amongst their creation. The second being that they were created by the old ones with the intention of championing the Eldar agaisnt the C'tan, and therefore are merely Eldar of superior design and creation.

[Dunadan]

In the main Rogue Trader rulebook there is a kind of cool planet which exists in a stable Warp Storm. The storm abates every 100 years and for a few days the Imperium swoops down on the planet to remind the inhabitants of their duty to the Imperium. Tithes are collected, heads are busted, Imperial Law is restored just before the Imperial forces evacuate the area and leave the locals to go back into the storm and resume their normal lawless lives. I seem to recall the drawings accompanying that description in the book had a very Wild West feel to them including a wanted poster behind a Marine and a tumbleweed blowing by a land speeder.


That would be Helsreach on Logans World, one of the Lost Worlds in the Eye of Terror. The storm doesn't abate, but every 4 to 10 years the eye 'blinks', allowing ships to enter. The warp storms around the Lost Worlds also keep out warp entities.

[person person]

Found something in the Horus loyalist or traitor?????? thread

Also, we get glimpses in Legion and Visions of Heresy of the Emperor's ruthless nature. I know I'm not alone in suspecting that the whole Imperial Truth was actually a way of clearing the decks for the arrival of the Emperor's own cult to be introduced later so there is some validity in an argument that the Emperor was betraying Horus as much as Horus betrayed him.

Finally, it could be that Horus was actually the Emperor's fall guy. Given the age of the Emperor and the scale of his ambition it appears that he was the ulitmate pragmatist. He may have shed a tear over the fall of his favoured son but ultimately everyone was expendable in his eyes. Civil war may have been inevitable - the Emperor built a highly militarised society dedicated to aggressive conquest and expansion. In addition he had quelled religious insurrection through Imperial Truth but in doing so he reduced himself to just a man, his rule was not sacrosanct. Garviel Loken wondered what would happen when the Crusade was complete. What future would there be for the legions of men who knew nothing except how to wage war? Perhaps the Emperor worried about that too. His vast empire may have been doomed to fall in upon itself in civil war. Throughout history both ancient (Rome - suspension of the Senate and appointment of the Emperor) and modern (detention without trial and legislation such as the Patriot Act and its equivalents in various countries) leaders and governments have used the threat of external aggression, espionage, terrorism or insurrection to expand their powers.

If the Emperor did nothing, then he did not know who would betray him. If he engineered the downfall of his most exalted servant then nobody would be above suspicion and he could create institutions such as the Inquisition and Officio Assassinorum and be free to eliminate anyone he wished on the grounds that they were traitors. Of course if this was his plan he presumably hadn't counted on fully half of the legions joining the rebellion.

BrotherAlpharius wrote that BTW...

[darth_papi76]

I think we give the Emperor too much credit. Its bad enough that he beat up a C'Tan and trapped it on Mars in the year 1100AD. The idea that he planned his death is silly and takes away from the drama and impact of the Horus Heresy. I really wish that Games Workshop would bring back Chaos as the preeminent threat to the Imperium. Plus I would love for them to get back to Cadia. What's going over there? Sorry if I'm rambling.:o

[Duke]

Plus I would love for them to get back to Cadia. What's going over there?

Well, the easy answer is... "WAR!"

I have been thinking a lot about the lost Primarchs... Here are the options

1. Fell to Chaos/ rebelled against the emperor: This can't be it because Horus fell and they still talk about him
2. Went to another galaxy: Possibly, but why would you not talk about them then?
3. Died in some crazy battle: Possibly, but wouldn't you honour them more?
4. Are still alive, somewhere: Maybe... But probably not
5. It is a great lie and the Emperor is using them as a secret force like Grey Knights founding, etc.
6. The Emperor did something to them: Possible, he locked up a C'tan for thousands of years for later use.
7. They mutated horribly and are now the race known as the "Tyranids,": This has to be it... lol

All in all I think that the most logical option is that something horrible happened to them and the Emperor is hiding it to cover his "Imperial truth," maybe he personally slaughtered the whole group........ WAIT! I think I just figured out what happened.

We all know that GW likes to base fluff off of history. What group in history was once one of the most exalted of Warrior Monks, only to be betrayed by their King? The Knights Templar! They were wiped out to the man almost and all records of them were burned... Simply because they 'fell out of favour,' I really think this is what happened to the lost Legions.

So the Emperor personally signed their death warrant and slaughtered them all, then cleared the records to protect himself.


DUKE

[Kelmon]

I also think he ordered them to be butchered away ...

But WHY ? What has to happen, that the emperor sings the death warrant on his own sons ?

Maybe they were utterly mutated, when he found them and he destroyed only the primarchs and used their legions for something els - splitting them among the other legions, go on secret missions, OR ... what else...

[AirHorse]

I reckon their geneseed failed and they went insane or out of control in some way. Its both tragic and would make sense as to why the records were cleared. If two legions geneseeds can fail like that would anyone trust the other legions?

[Duke]

I also think he ordered them to be butchered away ...

But WHY ? What has to happen, that the emperor sings the death warrant on his own sons ?

Maybe they were utterly mutated, when he found them and he destroyed only the primarchs and used their legions for something els - splitting them among the other legions, go on secret missions, OR ... what else...

Well, lets look again at the Knights Templar to see how they fell from grace. Long story short King Phillip was endebted to the Knights and had them wiped out to remove his debt. I could see the Emperor doing this sort of thing. Maybe the Primarchs didn't make it through incubation/ were killed by their homeworlds (unlikely). Anyhow, the best idea I can come up with is that the Emperor wanted these guys gone, no matter what and if your that desperate it is because you are afraid of them, much like Phillip was afraid of the Knights Templar. This possibly happened prior to the great crusade.


DUKE

[dvs1]

the legion of the damned. Are they formally of the fire falcons from the 13th founding, or something completely different? If they were, their founding is several centuries before their re-emergence. Lost in the warp?

[WhyteLocust]

Well, the easy answer is... "WAR!"

I have been thinking a lot about the lost Primarchs... Here are the options

1. Fell to Chaos/ rebelled against the emperor: This can't be it because Horus fell and they still talk about him
2. Went to another galaxy: Possibly, but why would you not talk about them then?
3. Died in some crazy battle: Possibly, but wouldn't you honour them more?
4. Are still alive, somewhere: Maybe... But probably not
5. It is a great lie and the Emperor is using them as a secret force like Grey Knights founding, etc.
6. The Emperor did something to them: Possible, he locked up a C'tan for thousands of years for later use.
7. They mutated horribly and are now the race known as the "Tyranids,": This has to be it... lol

All in all I think that the most logical option is that something horrible happened to them and the Emperor is hiding it to cover his "Imperial truth," maybe he personally slaughtered the whole group........ WAIT! I think I just figured out what happened.

We all know that GW likes to base fluff off of history. What group in history was once one of the most exalted of Warrior Monks, only to be betrayed by their King? The Knights Templar! They were wiped out to the man almost and all records of them were burned... Simply because they 'fell out of favour,' I really think this is what happened to the lost Legions.

So the Emperor personally signed their death warrant and slaughtered them all, then cleared the records to protect himself.


DUKE
My guess is that they were a complete failure and thus a major blow to the emperor's ego.
Maybe they turned out to be completely normal with nothing special about them.
The emperor being such a huge megalomaniac would never have been able to deal with the shame of such a failure so he instead wiped out every mention of them ever existing. The only proof being that he had already found the other primarchs and given them control of the numbered legions.

[Savark]

I support the fact they where sent beyond the bounds of the imperium...
With the nids' shadow in the warp the emperor must've felt em' comming

[gwensdad]

Here's a thought about the missing primarchs-what if they just couldn't produce a stable gene-seed to make legions from, so that's why they never led any marines. But the primarchs themselves? Maybe they never died and act as "secret agents" of the emperor in some regard.

Just a thought.

[Kelmon]

I think that one of them had a unstable gene seed, too. And the other - in my opinion - was false in his character i think - so the emperor did not want a man like him to lead one of his legions.

BUT - what happened to the legions ???

[gwensdad]

BUT - what happened to the legions ???

An unstable gene seed could mean that the legion never got past the "prototype" stage. Geneseed was put into bodies to grow organs, and they all failed. The numbering was assigned before the failure was noticed and never re-used.

[Scoota]

What bugs me is that if the Emperor is so awesome and powerful and farseeing, couldn't he have predicted the end of Chaos by allowing Horus to win and blow itself out in a immaterial armageddon, as the Cabal forsaw? If he did infact see it the same way, why on earth would he have stopped Horus? Did he change his mind in the last second? Is he mad? What's the reasoning there?

And one thing that seems to be evident to me all through the Heresy is that 1, ALL Primarchs are about as emotionally mature as a small child, and 2, for super post human demigods, they all have some serious daddy issues and supremely petty things playing on their minds.

Besides maybe afew of them like Sanguinius, Magnus and Curze.



You mentioned the Emperor wanting Chaos to blow itself out in an immaterial armageddon - what if Sanguinius' intervention in the battle between the Emperor and Horus was what stopped that? Could Sanguinius have seen the Emperor's Death, and decided to take that fate onto himself?

[ssylyss]

I also tend to suspect that Lion'el and the senior commanders that went with him to Terra were slightly tainted by Chaos or simply suffered a combination of lack of loyalty and lack of courage that meant they waited until a victor was clear before they arrived so they could declare their alliegance to whoever triumphed.

When I read this in "angels of darkness" (I think it was) I was blown away. I prefer to think that lion'el simply lacked loyalty and was waiting to see who won rather then he was tainted by chaos, but that is just a personal preference.

I also thought it was very interesting that Horus wanted to work with the interex in "Horus Rising". He challenged his orders, and was trying to do good for humanity by befriending them. I always thought of horus as an evil guy, but this clearly shows differently. It made me think that maybe it wasnt Horus that was evil but the emperor.

[ThePov]

When I read this in "angels of darkness" (I think it was) I was blown away. I prefer to think that lion'el simply lacked loyalty and was waiting to see who won rather then he was tainted by chaos, but that is just a personal preference.

I also thought it was very interesting that Horus wanted to work with the interex in "Horus Rising". He challenged his orders, and was trying to do good for humanity by befriending them. I always thought of horus as an evil guy, but this clearly shows differently. It made me think that maybe it wasnt Horus that was evil but the emperor.
The thing to remember about Horus Rising, however, is it's only the first part of the story. The story it tells is of Horus BEFORE he is tainted by Chaos, in order to set up the rest of the books about Horus, which detail his fall. You can't really draw to many character inferences about the Horus who laid siege to Terra from that book, much like you can't really talk about pre-Heresy Horus from the other books. Essentially, Horus is two different people: One, the loyal and noble Warmaster seeking the best interpretation of his very nebulous orders; the other a jealous fiend who manages to feel cheated by being given the most power any single human aside from the Emperor himself has ever wielded.

[ssylyss]

The thing to remember about Horus Rising, however, is it's only the first part of the story. The story it tells is of Horus BEFORE he is tainted by Chaos, in order to set up the rest of the books about Horus, which detail his fall. You can't really draw to many character inferences about the Horus who laid siege to Terra from that book, much like you can't really talk about pre-Heresy Horus from the other books. Essentially, Horus is two different people: One, the loyal and noble Warmaster seeking the best interpretation of his very nebulous orders; the other a jealous fiend who manages to feel cheated by being given the most power any single human aside from the Emperor himself has ever wielded.

I agree with what you are saying there. I just thought it was interesting, at that moment Horus was questioning the emperors plan. Which made me start to think. How "good" a person can be when there plan is essentially join us or die, be of our race or die.

[Duke]

I agree with what you are saying there. I just thought it was interesting, at that moment Horus was questioning the emperors plan. Which made me start to think. How "good" a person can be when there plan is essentially join us or die, be of our race or die.

SPOILER ALERT: TALES OF HERESY
For more on that same thought read "A wolf at the gates," from the Tales of heresy book. Space Wolves fought along side these hunmans to defeat Dark Eldar, only to then kill them for not coming over to the Emperors way.

DUKE

[ssylyss]

SPOILER ALERT: TALES OF HERESY
For more on that same thought read "A wolf at the gates," from the Tales of heresy book. Space Wolves fought along side these hunmans to defeat Dark Eldar, only to then kill them for not coming over to the Emperors way.

DUKE

That was a great story and a great book.

[Melissia]

My favorite would be whatever the Emperor told Alicia Dominica and her bodyguards when they knelt before the Golden Throne before Alicia slew Vandire. Ah, if only GW would reveal to us hints of what exactly he told them. Has something to do with the flags and names of the four original Orders Majoris.

[soapy]

Okay the lost legions, lets try this:

The Emperor forsees the end of chaos should Horus win.

Long before the start of the Heresy two legions are withdrawn from the line under a cover story and sequestered until needed.

The Emperor has withdrawn to Terra and has 'far more important things to do' that run the Imperium and so leaves it to the Sigilite and chums. Hopefully they can lose a war without it looking staged.

The plan is for Horus to win the war at which point chaos destroys itself and the galaxy is ready for mankind to reclaim it which is when the lost legions return as the core of the new Imperial forces.

Something goes wrong and the Emperors forces win, the Emperor is confined to the golden throne and unable to reveal the location of the lost legions. Maybe they are in stasis somewhere awaiting a new dawn of mankind that never came.

Doubt it but it's always fun to speculate.

[ChaosLord127]

Okay the lost legions, lets try this:

The Emperor forsees the end of chaos should Horus win.

Long before the start of the Heresy two legions are withdrawn from the line under a cover story and sequestered until needed.

The Emperor has withdrawn to Terra and has 'far more important things to do' that run the Imperium and so leaves it to the Sigilite and chums. Hopefully they can lose a war without it looking staged.

The plan is for Horus to win the war at which point chaos destroys itself and the galaxy is ready for mankind to reclaim it which is when the lost legions return as the core of the new Imperial forces.

Something goes wrong and the Emperors forces win, the Emperor is confined to the golden throne and unable to reveal the location of the lost legions. Maybe they are in stasis somewhere awaiting a new dawn of mankind that never came.

Doubt it but it's always fun to speculate.

That is probably the best theory I have ever read.

[ThePov]

That is probably the best theory I have ever read.
Agreed. Fits the best of anything I've ever heard with the existing HH books, it's coniving, it's callous yet inspired, it's the Big E to a T.

[Melissia]

Okay the lost legions, lets try this:

The Emperor forsees the end of chaos should Horus win.

Long before the start of the Heresy two legions are withdrawn from the line under a cover story and sequestered until needed.

The Emperor has withdrawn to Terra and has 'far more important things to do' that run the Imperium and so leaves it to the Sigilite and chums. Hopefully they can lose a war without it looking staged.

The plan is for Horus to win the war at which point chaos destroys itself and the galaxy is ready for mankind to reclaim it which is when the lost legions return as the core of the new Imperial forces.

Something goes wrong and the Emperors forces win, the Emperor is confined to the golden throne and unable to reveal the location of the lost legions. Maybe they are in stasis somewhere awaiting a new dawn of mankind that never came.

Doubt it but it's always fun to speculate.


Problem with this is that he actually IS able to communicate... in fact, he communicated as recently as ~M.36, when he talked face to face with Alicia Dominica and her bodyguards, the founders of the Adepta Sororitas.

[Drew da Destroya]

There's also the whole "Emperor's Tarot" thing... apparently, the Big E has enough juice left in him to run the galaxy's biggest lighthouse, give direct orders to specific people, hold the broken remnants of his failed entrance into the Webway closed, prevent a large portion of Daemons from manifesting on the planets in his Empire, indirectly guide others through dreams and visions, and he's still got enough power left to help back-alley hustlers play card tricks on unsuspecting marks. And apparently it tells the future, or something.

Since Sigmar's been written out of the 40k Universe, I kinda like rampant, uncontrolled mutation taking out at least one of the two Legions. I mean, all those Ogryn had to come from somewhere!

On a grammatical sidenote... what's the plural of Ogryn? Is it Ogryns, Ogrys, Ogryn, or some other option? Ogryn sounds best in my head.

[Melissia]

On a grammatical sidenote... what's the plural of Ogryn? Is it Ogryns, Ogrys, Ogryn, or some other option? Ogryn sounds best in my head.

You know, I actually like that the best, too... "we da ogryn, we strong and brave!"

[Andrew283]

Jobbies???

[eldargal]

One of the Apoc datasheets has the answer, and it is 'Ogryns'. I was dissapointed too, I think Ogryn/Ogry (like Lego/Lego!) would have been more interesting.


There's also the whole "Emperor's Tarot" thing... apparently, the Big E has enough juice left in him to run the galaxy's biggest lighthouse, give direct orders to specific people, hold the broken remnants of his failed entrance into the Webway closed, prevent a large portion of Daemons from manifesting on the planets in his Empire, indirectly guide others through dreams and visions, and he's still got enough power left to help back-alley hustlers play card tricks on unsuspecting marks. And apparently it tells the future, or something.

Since Sigmar's been written out of the 40k Universe, I kinda like rampant, uncontrolled mutation taking out at least one of the two Legions. I mean, all those Ogryn had to come from somewhere!

On a grammatical sidenote... what's the plural of Ogryn? Is it Ogryns, Ogrys, Ogryn, or some other option? Ogryn sounds best in my head.

[Drew da Destroya]

One of the Apoc datasheets has the answer, and it is 'Ogryns'. I was dissapointed too, I think Ogryn/Ogry (like Lego/Lego!) would have been more interesting.

Hmm, damn. That is disapointing. Perhaps you, me, and Melissia will have to start a grassroots campaign to change it.