Favorite "Secret of the 40k Universe"

[dmcq]

I'd love to know the reason that the cursed Founding went pear shaped and what the story behind the Legion of the damned is!!!!

[Duke]

Okay the lost legions, lets try this:

The Emperor forsees the end of chaos should Horus win.

Long before the start of the Heresy two legions are withdrawn from the line under a cover story and sequestered until needed.

The Emperor has withdrawn to Terra and has 'far more important things to do' that run the Imperium and so leaves it to the Sigilite and chums. Hopefully they can lose a war without it looking staged.

The plan is for Horus to win the war at which point chaos destroys itself and the galaxy is ready for mankind to reclaim it which is when the lost legions return as the core of the new Imperial forces.

Something goes wrong and the Emperors forces win, the Emperor is confined to the golden throne and unable to reveal the location of the lost legions. Maybe they are in stasis somewhere awaiting a new dawn of mankind that never came.

Doubt it but it's always fun to speculate.

This is the best theory I have heard in a long time... It makes a ton of sense. It can't be mutation, turning to chaos or any of the other highly suggested outcomes because we know that the legions that have done that aren't "scrubbed out,"

Duke

[Melissia]

This is the best theory I have heard in a long time... It makes a ton of sense. It can't be mutation, turning to chaos or any of the other highly suggested outcomes because we know that the legions that have done that aren't "scrubbed out,"

Except that it's not once you actually look at the facts... the Emperor is able to communicate...

[RogueGarou]

The Emperor can and has communicated with his subjects since ascending to the Golden Throne but that communication has been.. unusual at times. Something was said to Alicia Dominica and her sisters which led her to immediately discard the name Brides of the Emperor and execute Lord Vandire without a second thought. Sounds pretty inspiring or at least very damning. Perhaps it went something like, "The Emperor is a PLAYA and does not take a Bride; don't hate the playa, hate the game, honey." :) Understandably, they may have taken this less than gleefully. Probably, though, it was something very inspiring and led the Sisters to millennia of devotion and service.

But His communication is not always so benevolent. An old story from the Rogue Trader or 2E era I keep hearing about involves a fellow having an audience with the Emperor. The Emperor does indeed communicate with him but apparently worshipping the Golden Throne for ten thousand years has not sat well with the Emperor and he has become unhinged. One of the Emperor's statements is something along the lines of, "Of course we are mad. We have been trapped here for so long, imprisoned." Aside from referring to himself as "We" the Emperor makes quite a few comments leading the reader and the unfortunate bloke who gets to meet the Big E in person, that he is in an insane situation in an insane universe and it has driven him insane. Now it all makes sense, right?

I have not personally read the story but a friend of mine has told me about it several times. As I recall, he said it was in a pretty old anthology book.

[Gotthammer]

Except that it's not once you actually look at the facts... the Emperor is able to communicate...

But if it was his plan to lose against Horus he's hardly going to be telling anyone. He can't reveal the lost legions because he needs to personally revive them, or he wants to keep his plan hidden, even if it means keeping the two missing legions locked away.

[Ka Faraq Gatri]

But His communication is not always so benevolent. An old story from the Rogue Trader or 2E era I keep hearing about involves a fellow having an audience with the Emperor. The Emperor does indeed communicate with him but apparently worshipping the Golden Throne for ten thousand years has not sat well with the Emperor and he has become unhinged. One of the Emperor's statements is something along the lines of, "Of course we are mad. We have been trapped here for so long, imprisoned." Aside from referring to himself as "We" the Emperor makes quite a few comments leading the reader and the unfortunate bloke who gets to meet the Big E in person, that he is in an insane situation in an insane universe and it has driven him insane. Now it all makes sense, right?

I have not personally read the story but a friend of mine has told me about it several times. As I recall, he said it was in a pretty old anthology book.

It's from the first book in the Inquisition War trilogy. Originally titled Inquisitor, it is now available under the name Draco. Inquisitor Jaq Draco and his companions smuggle themselves to Holy Terra in an attempt to discover if the revelations of the Illuminati/Sensei are true. Draco manages to enter the Throne room and finds that the Emperor is a split personality.

As far as canonicity goes, the current editions have the trilogy framed as the "Book of Draco", the writings of the heretic ex-Inquisitor Jaq Draco, and therefore even more deeply unreliable than most Imperial scuttlebut.

[Ka Faraq Gatri]

But if it was his plan to lose against Horus he's hardly going to be telling anyone. He can't reveal the lost legions because he needs to personally revive them, or he wants to keep his plan hidden, even if it means keeping the two missing legions locked away.

"If you do as I ask then I shall not wholly die, my spirit at least will survive. My injuries are severe, more so than I had hoped but less so than I had feared."

The Emperor to Dorn & Khan
Horus Heresy: Collected Visions p.367.

This implies to me that the Emperor expected to be seriously injured and placed in the Throne...not to die. Personally, I think that any crazy conspiracy theories surrounding the missing legions are just that...crazy. The most logical explanations to my mind are:

1) A massive flaw in their Primarchs' gene-seed (worse than the Wolves or Angels) that, once they were rediscovered, made them untenable. Primarch and Legion are destroyed and all records of the Emperor's failure are stricken.

2) Some tragedy that destroyed Primarch and Legion early in the Crusade; all information purged (along, presumably, with all Imperial Army forces in their crusade group, all Remembrancers and Iterators, and so on) to perpetuate the useful myth that Primarchs - and Astartes - are immortal and all-powerful.

[Majorcrash]

1) A massive flaw in their Primarchs' gene-seed (worse than the Wolves or Angels) that, once they were rediscovered, made them untenable. Primarch and Legion are destroyed and all records of the Emperor's failure are stricken.Such a flaw would have been found early on probably, and considering all the other flaws it would almost have to be that thet are unviable. The facts are at least that their were 20 legions and if two had flaws they would not have been made in to full flege legions.

2) Some tragedy that destroyed Primarch and Legion early in the Crusade; all information purged (along, presumably, with all Imperial Army forces in their crusade group, all Remembrancers and Iterators, and so on) to perpetuate the useful myth that Primarchs - and Astartes - are immortal and all-powerful.[/QUOTE]

Two many other legion have been reported destroyed yet not removed from history. Even if all the historians had died with the fleets, their would be records of their battles prior to their destruction.

[person person]

1) A massive flaw in their Primarchs' gene-seed (worse than the Wolves or Angels) that, once they were rediscovered, made them untenable. Primarch and Legion are destroyed and all records of the Emperor's failure are stricken.Such a flaw would have been found early on probably, and considering all the other flaws it would almost have to be that thet are unviable. The facts are at least that their were 20 legions and if two had flaws they would not have been made in to full flege legions.

2) Some tragedy that destroyed Primarch and Legion early in the Crusade; all information purged (along, presumably, with all Imperial Army forces in their crusade group, all Remembrancers and Iterators, and so on) to perpetuate the useful myth that Primarchs - and Astartes - are immortal and all-powerful.

Two many other legion have been reported destroyed yet not removed from history. Even if all the historians had died with the fleets, their would be records of their battles prior to their destruction.

Well alot of people must have died, or they got lost in the warp.

[entendre_entendre]

Alright, here's what happened to the so called "lost legions". The Emperor and his sons were having a great dinner party with all legions present, when the emperor got a tingle in his nose. Using his foresight and knowledge of what would happen next, the Emperor made his decision. He got the missing primarchs to stand next to each other with their legions behind them. Then the Emperor simply sneezed them out of existence.
The other primarchs were so shocked by this that they swore never to speak of it to anyone. To cover up his embarrassment, the Emperor ordered all information regarding the "sneezed legions" erased so the general populous would never now that the god-like emperor actually has dust allergies.

Thanks for reading. :)
Also, 260th! yeah! I win at teh intrenets!!1!

[eldargal]

Maybe the two missing primarchs were primarchettes and the emperor hushed it up out of shame when they came home one evening with navel piercings.

[AirHorse]

haha i love it, I really hope they were primarchettes :P. Maybe they fell in love with one of their legion marines and got pregnant, then the emperor wiped them out in a fit of rage!

[rsheridan5]

Now you've done it... I have in my head an image of a 9 foot tall Jessica Simpson with Chyna's body and a bare midrif suit of power armor holding a thunder hammer!
It won't go away! I am going to be totally useless today!

[eldargal]

(sorry, I can't resist)

Deep within the Black Library of the Eldar, Inquisitor Czevak stumbled accross a human datafile containing a startling reveletion about the Great Crusade:



+++++

It was with great fanfare the Emperor and his escort touched down on the planet Cecil Prime. The psychic emanations from the planet had called to him across the stars, and as he drew closer the news that the planet had been recently unified under one rule by two powerful fighters fueled his suspicions. There were Primarchs on that world.
The Emperor knew he was in for some kind of surprise. Something had gone wrong two of the legions he had recently raised, the hosts transforming into women within days of receiving the geneseed. But nothing could have prepared him for the true horror of what lay ahead.

‘Hiya Daddy! Welcome to Fudge World Cecil!’
The two willowy, eight foot women beamed at him. The emperor was rather nonplussed.
‘Ah, you mean Forge World perhaps?’
They giggled. The Emperors honour guard looked decidedly put off by the sound.
‘No, Fudge World, home of the Adeptus Chocolatium, finest confectioners in the galaxy!’
As his retinue shuffling their feet and pretending not to have heard any of the exchange, the Emperor turned to Lion el’Jonson, feeling oddly embaressed. The great Primarch was standing staring, transfixed with horror. The Emperor followed his gaze and saw, dangling from each of the women’s navels, a rhinestone encrusted caricature of a kitten.

+++++

One month later all travel to and from Cecil Prime was forbidden, except unmanned, automated shipments of Chocolatium confectionary. Both legions raised from the Primarchettes geneseed had been deployed to the planet to ensure production proceeded at maximum speed. In the mean time the Emperor set about purging all records of the two legions, their Primarchettes and the Cecil system from Imperial records.

+++++

Not all of the Blessed Primarchs seemed so perturbed, perhaps because they did not witness it first hand. Leman Russ continually pestered Jonson for information about his sisters, to which Jonsons response was always a muttered 'all girls are alike to me'. Russ swore that one day, when he had the time, he would track down his sisters even if it took him ten thousand years...

+++++

[Gotthammer]

Very well done EG :D

"If you think you're going out of the Fortress Monastary dressed like that you've got another thing coming!"

[AirHorse]

awesome, i like it eldargal. its a good thing it was a girl writting about the primarchettes, I think it wouldve been a little different if it was a member of the opposite sex doing the imagining

[Majorcrash]

argh my daughter said maybe they would be like the hilton sisters or some such............. must purge from mind

[Cryl]

(sorry, I can't resist)

Deep within the Black Library of the Eldar, Inquisitor Czevak stumbled accross a human datafile containing a startling reveletion about the Great Crusade:

That's so very very wrong it's actually gone full circle and become right again :)

[ChaosLord127]

argh my daughter said maybe they would be like the hilton sisters or some such

Gah! Burn the heretic!

[Melissia]

Gah! Burn the heretic!I support this statement.

Pass the torches.

[ravenG85]

the dark angel's dark secret is homosexuality...

lmfao!!!!

[fuzzbuket]

the 2 lost legions are

wait for it

da-da:eek:

LOST:D

in the halo stars crusade ended b4 the emperor found them!
(mr.e spent to much funds on plastic molds to make 2 more legions:D)

woohoo

Fuzzbuket

[Nauta Vei]

Definatley the Lost Legions

[Just_Me]

Three stand out for me, interestingly enough all of them are from the HH novels:

First the biggest and best of the lot; Alpharius and Omegon, I mean just WOW :eek:. Who the hell saw that one coming, leave it to an author like Abnett to shake everything we thought we knew about chaos to its foundations. The best part for me (and so incredibly appropriate to the Alpha Legion) is that even the big reveal creates more mystery than it actually answers! How has that played out long term? Are the Alpha Legion still the greatest double agents in the history of everything? Or have even they truly succumbed to chaos over the millennia? Who is dead? Are EITHER of them actually dead? And just to bring it full circle TWINS?!? And these are just the questions I came up with off the top of my head!

In addition, if you think about it and read between the lines of history Legion also underscores my other favorite “secret.” Well, it’s not a secret per se, but we are finally getting some insight into just who the Emperor is, namely the ultimate badass and magnificent *******. Despite the predictions and countless millennia of planning by a cabal of the oldest, smartest, most prescient entities in existence the Emperor, all on his own, defied every one of their expectations just by being that flipping cool! It almost makes you wonder if the Alpha legion had stayed with him whether it would have been just enough to tip the scales and give him a definitive victory over Chaos… We are also learning just what a master of the long term plan he is (e.g. the Void Dragon is on Mars!), and how incalculably beyond human comprehension his goals and methods really are. You really get the sense that we (pitiful bugs that we are) don’t have any right to judge him at all.

Which brings us to the last of the three, the Void Dragon is indeed on Mars! Oh woe and lamentation! The Adeptus Mechanicus are but his unwitting pawns! The Imperium shall be torn asunder by his rise and all will be consumed in his ascendant fury! Wait, what’s that? The Emperor kicked his teeth in and then locked him up there? The Emperor, nit the Void Dragon really is the Omnissiah, because he created the religion himself? It was all part of his ridiculously circuitous plans? Well, that was unexpected… In all seriousness, Mechanicum was in my opinion one of the weaker HH novels, but this little detail actually has endeared it to me, and is yet one more feather in the Emperor’s plumed cap…

[AirHorse]

Yeah, I very much like how everyone seems to underestimate the emperor and his plan, although even he wasnt sure about beating horus, which just goes to show how much of a struggle it really was.

What you said about the alpha legion and what if they didnt turn is exactly what I thought, it makes me think that the cabal is under the influence of chaos and they attempted to win over what would otherwise be a totaly loyal legion.

[mjayc50]

omg i just spent like 3 hours reading this post! some great ideas in here and i loved it! shame GW dont really care and the fluff has just grown out of randomness and fluff lovers like ourselves! my fav big secret in 40k has got to be the fact that horus wants to banish the demon in his brothers body back to the warp (fulgrim). could this be the first sign that horus would have killed the emperor and taken his seat and been a better ruler? probably not. i also love all the special chapter specific uber weapons that fly around the fluff - such as the soulspear, spear of russ and lionsword ect... really ties 30k and 40k together. Legion is amazing but i kind of saw it coming... Could the emperor be boris johnson? mayor of london? its him of vince mcmahon. or gav thorpe. just like the emperor to test out his theorys before it all happens. seriously gav/your holiness. wtf?

[Pi666]

Wow, 28 pages full of theories and conspiracies...

And I didn't read one thing. Am I the only one who thinks Khaine=Khorne?

I read a document long time ago, i think it was before 4th ed came out. It talked about a total change in the 40k universe. It was all about Cypher arriving to Terra, offering Abbadon's head and revealing himself as the Emperor's reincarnation. Didn't like it much, but I always loved Cypher. Never tought about the Fallen being the real loyalists, 'cause I think Chaos kinda acts like the Dark Side of the Force, you know, envy leads to anger, anger leads to the Dark Side, what i think is what happened to Luther, somehow like Anankin, he sold his a$$ to achieve more power and, in Luther's case, become more powerful than the one he felt envy.

And I read before someone asking what happened to Leman Russ. I used to hear that he went into the Eye to look for his friend, The Lion.

[Kelmon]

The Lion being a Traitor Primarch within the eye now, the "Fallen" being destroaye by the agents of chaos, the dark angels, caliban being the bridgehead the four gods need ... and Cypher will use the sword to free the emperor from his prison ... and then the party begins ... ;)

I LOVE THIS THREAD !

[Liquidice]

Well, the easy answer is... "WAR!"

I have been thinking a lot about the lost Primarchs... Here are the options

1. Fell to Chaos/ rebelled against the emperor: This can't be it because Horus fell and they still talk about him
2. Went to another galaxy: Possibly, but why would you not talk about them then?
3. Died in some crazy battle: Possibly, but wouldn't you honour them more?
4. Are still alive, somewhere: Maybe... But probably not
5. It is a great lie and the Emperor is using them as a secret force like Grey Knights founding, etc.
6. The Emperor did something to them: Possible, he locked up a C'tan for thousands of years for later use.
7. They mutated horribly and are now the race known as the "Tyranids,": This has to be it... lol

All in all I think that the most logical option is that something horrible happened to them and the Emperor is hiding it to cover his "Imperial truth," maybe he personally slaughtered the whole group........ WAIT! I think I just figured out what happened.

We all know that GW likes to base fluff off of history. What group in history was once one of the most exalted of Warrior Monks, only to be betrayed by their King? The Knights Templar! They were wiped out to the man almost and all records of them were burned... Simply because they 'fell out of favour,' I really think this is what happened to the lost Legions.

So the Emperor personally signed their death warrant and slaughtered them all, then cleared the records to protect himself.


DUKE



Ok from the audio book the lightning tower..

"The 2nd and 11th plenths had been vacant for a long time, no one ever spoke of those two adsent brothers, thier seperate trajadies had seemed like aberations, have they been in fact warnings that no one had heeded?"

So they are two seperate events, and the other primarchs knew what had happened. The fact that rogal dorn thought of them as maybe warnings of the heresy so im pretty confident that they rebelled against the empire. Also sence the tragedies had happened after the primarchs had been united, then i doubt it would have been a bad gene seed (would have been sooner). One personal opninion of mine, is maybe the emperor had sent the two legions into the eye on the crusade, just to see them return as mad men.

[Duke]

...One personal opninion of mine, is maybe the emperor had sent the two legions into the eye on the crusade, just to see them return as mad men.

I could see this being the big reason. My feelings are that they didn't simply turn traitor, Look what Horus did and he is still in the records. I feel that it had to be something that the Emperor did to them, and expunged the records to 'cover his tracks,' why else would you wipe the records, if not to hide your own involvment?

Duke

[RogueGarou]

Could be.

But also, if the two lost Primarchs did rebel, they did so during the Emperor's ambulatory life. He could have demanded they be erased and never mentioned again. After the Horus Heresy, he was not in such a position. The Traitor Legions are essentially struck from record as far as the general populace is concerned. No average Imperial citizen is supposed to know about Marines betraying their oaths of fealty or know the nature of the Warp. After the Heresy, the Imperium did what it could do: strike them from the official historical record and destroy their homeworlds. They did not have the strength of arms or centralized leadership to prosecute a campaign to destroy the Traitors or to even pursue them beyond the Eye, the Maelstrom, or even some regions of former Imperial space. The Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors held territory in real space for some time after the Heresy. It is possible that the Alpha Legion never retreated en masse to the Eye unlike the other Legions. Chastisement during the Emperor's days walking among mortals was very different from the compromises needed after his interment in the Golden Throne.

Another example is the geneseed. After the Heresy, the gene-stock of the Traitor Legions was sealed in stasis under a time lock. This implies that at some point, past or present, those stocks of geneseed could be unleashed to create new Marines or to be used in conjunction with other stocks of geneseed. Being preserved from such a bygone era, that geneseed would be fairly likely to contain functional implants that have been lost to other strains. That geneseed would have been collected and created prior to the need to try cloning and rapidly engineering the geneseed. It mostly would have been created before those Legions fell to Chaos. It would possibly be more pure than that currently in use by any loyal Chapter. The geneseed of II and XI Legions might not have been preserved because the Emperor was alive still and could have decided he could just create more Legions later. Since the Primarchs and their Legions represented aspects of the Emperor's personality, he may have decided the traits held by those Legions were unacceptable. The High Lords of Terra, beginning to venerate and worship the Emperor might have been unwilling to so thoroughly destroy the works of the Emperor. They may also have feared a return of the Traitor Legions or another threat that they kept the Traitor Legions geneseed as an emergency reserve in the event they needed to very quickly raise Legion-sized forces of Astartes again.

[david5th]

Fabius Biles grand plan from Black Tide.:eek:

[rkiviman]

The geneseed for the space marines was created after the disappearance of the Primarch's. There were predcessors, but they weren't space marines. So, that would mean that the legions for the two missing Primarch's was never created!! Maybe, because the Emperor knew they had perished!?? All speculation, but who knows??? Only GW as they continue to unfold the TALE!! :D

[Madness]

The whole mystery behind the emperor being sort of held captive by the ecclesiarchy, with cypher slowly approaching earth, sensei getting killed, the starchild and other emprah stuff. Honorable mention to the black library of chaos and harlequins.

[AbeSapien]

What if the two missing primarchs were just pacifists?

"Kill the alien? Why? Can't we just be friends and be nice? Why is everybody so angry?"

[eldargal]

In the depths of the Inquisition archives, I found pictures of the missing primarchs:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IA5nokOFh84/RoGEG4RP4cI/AAAAAAAAAS4/h47gYoLTcyk/s400/KirkPicard.jpg

[rbryce]

so one was expunged for sleeping with half the galaxy, and the other for being turned into a necron? that fits with me lol :)

[MarneusCalgar]

For me there are 3 "secrets" that I want to be deployed:

1.- Because of the failure of the Golden Throne, will finally the Emperor die and extinguish the Astronomicon? Will he have a rebirth as the Star Child?

2.- What really happens to Roboute Guilliman, is he really recovering from his injuries? Will he come back?

3.- Where the hell is Leman Russ? Is he alive?

[Duke]

Russ is in the Eye of Terror having a serious Family-council session with Magnus to heal their brotherhood. Russ has to write down 50 things that he likes about Magnus and needless to say he is having a hard time.

Duke

[Majorcrash]

ok so while reading "A Thousand Sons" I came across an entry where Ahriman is retelling the story of the legions, history to Lemuel Gaumon. He comes to the part about Magnus saving the Legion, and sayes
"There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history. Lemuel shook his head. That the thing about history, he said. It has a habit of remembering the things you'd like to forget. No oe can erase that much, there will always be some record. Don't be so sure Lemuel, said Ahriman. The Emperor's wrath is a terrible thing." pgs 386 "A Thousands Sons"

Now althought that does not point directly to the lost Legions, it does give some credence to the theory that the legions 2, and 11 were destoryed by Emperor's edict before the Great Crusade. Guess we wil have to wait for further books to know.

[Spirit Leech]

My favorite secretish thing is that it is entirely possible the tyranids are being chased by something. I mean what could be so powerful that it causes even the tyranids to flee, then keeps chasing them. Only thing I can come up with is a galactus sized ork.

[Melissia]

Another delicious secret (if only because it seems to be forgotten) is that Canoness Praxedes is still fighting on Ophelia VII years after the Tyranids supposedly overran and began to eat that planet.

[Renegade]

Well, I would like to know what happened to Sigismund.

The guy declares his Oath, set off as High Marshal of the Black Templars and then ... ? It doesn't even say what Crusades he declared where or when after he sets off.

Whether or not Alpharius was killed.

Will Yarick ever get that last battle with Gazgul.

[fuzzbuket]

the 2 missing priamrchs

a) omegon yes the AL have 2 primarchs

b) one of the tanks was cracked so he died

simpels (Squeak)

my new fave secreat is the strategic coollective that to counter the nids you would need the ENTIRE imperium to be soldiers!!!

also the loyalist AL legion is cool

[MarneusCalgar]

Russ is in the Eye of Terror having a serious Family-council session with Magnus to heal their brotherhood. Russ has to write down 50 things that he likes about Magnus and needless to say he is having a hard time.

Duke

Hehehehe good one, Duke!!

No, now seriously, you think he will come back in the hour of need of GW??

[mr1029384756]

Well alot of people must have died, or they got lost in the warp.

What if the two Primarchs were lifted from Luna (like all the rest were) by the Chaos Gods and then deposited onto Daemon worlds? What if they were thrown outside of "the Halo", the viewing point of the Astronomicon? What if they had been dumped onto Eldar worlds and then converted or some such rot?

Either way, it needs to be said...

EPIC ****ING THREAD GUYS! Way to go...

[Pendragon38]

Has anyone thought about Khaine the Bloody Hand as a Crone God made of living metal that the Eldar may have made into shrines and spread throughout there Craft Worlds.

[Legoklods]

All I wanna say is...:
"there are no wolves on Fenris!..."

[LemanRussCommander]

Alpha Legion blew my mind. Nothing worse then twin little brothers, conspiring with each other, then deciding that they're gonna be different then all the other brothers.

second, how does Creed sneak a warlord titan... kansas city shuffle? he must be really good at heretic, just don't tell the commissar

[JxKxR]

So you want to know what happened to the missing legions then I guess ill tell you. When they were made something went horribly RIGHT and they had to much power and the emperor dreaded the thought that they would ruin the game so he tricked them while they were still young and dumb into committing mass suicide.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Each great company can have at one time 100-1000 members in it, however due to their attrition rates (mainly among Blood claws) and the fact that SW were one of the smaller leigons they will never reach the size of what the other leigions were at.

[Mr.Pickelz]

i hope that if Leman russ does show up that the Lion will also stir, although if that happens that means that he put himself to sleep just so he'd be around to mess with Russ.... i can't wait to see that epic battle.

[MightyOrang]

Erm..I always thought they were the Inquisition's founders. Garro and Quzre aren't psykers and all Grey Knights are. Also I thought the Sigilite said they'd form a group to combat Xeno's, Traitors and witches....which leads me to say Inquisition.
I could be talking out my backside of course.

Alpharius/Omegon-yeah I did NOT see that one coming. Twins 'eh? So who is alive?


That's the way I read that one as well -- that Garro & Company become the Inquisition ... but you never know, given the final battle on the Moon with that Nurgle demon.

For me, it's the Alpha Legion's actions -- including the fact that the Eldar manipulated Alpharius into doing it.

[Stubber]

For me, it's the Alpha Legion's actions -- including the fact that the Eldar manipulated Alpharius into doing it.

That's something which has never sat well with me. The Alpha legion essentially sided with horus because a xenos told them too.

[Duke]

IIRC The thing is that thie alpha legion didn't side with hours as much as they saw the grand plan of the emperor... They still serve the emperor (maybe)

Duke

[Artein]

We really don't know what Alpha Legion decided and why. All we know is that they've attacked Imperial Army soon after. We need to wait for more AL books, which will come, I have no doubts.

[HappyHaunt]

But the Alpha Legion are misled, they are told that if the Heresy does not take place then Chaos will lead to the slow death of the human race. The Heresy actually causes that outcome, not prevents it, which leads me to believe that the Alpha Legion are manipulated in the same vein as Horus, who is shown a likewise mixed picture of the future, and Lorgar, who is shown the same "switched" outcomes.

Anyway, in flight of th eisenstein Malcador does indeed say that there will be need for men like Garro and his companions once the conflict is done, so its not likely that this is the Grey Knights and more likely the Inquisition or Deathwatch - in terms of Deathwatch Garro, Qruze etc are "the best of the best" and unshakingly loyal, and have thrown aside chapter loyalty to do what they know is right -

For me there are two mysterys because one I know will be answered in the coming years, the other unlikely to ever be....;

1 - Why does Horus lower the shields of his battle barge in the final hour of the Heresy? Previous fluff says so that he can witness the final battle on Terra but this is massively unlikley now and probably retconned out now. If he believe he can best the Emperor in combat then, at that point, the Palace is breached and the shields are down, he could teleport down himself and know the Emperor would come to him, instead a situation is created where the advantage Horus has, numbers, is surrendered. The other previous explanation has been that loyalist reinforcements are enroute, and he wants to finish it, but again, why surrender numbers and invite attack, when you can attack yourself. Horus is being painted as a master tactician after all.

2-Origins of The Legion Of The Damned. My only inkling for this is a link to chapters 2 and 11 which are now being more heavily referenced in the HH series, I dont think the Firehawks is a credible idea as that would involve breaking out of the warp only to go back to it, and they'd all be chaos by now.

[Vaddok Sek]

1. There are no wolves on Fenris.
2. Malcador the Sigilite as the Master of Assassins.
3. The methods of the various temples/clades of the Officio Assassinorum.
4. Origins/cause of the Cadian eye colour.

[rkiviman]

The Alpha Legion were shown the results that might happen with/without their aid for the Heresy. One result was that if the Emperor maintained control and then mankind was to be plunged into a period of thousands of years of slow decay as Chaos took control of mankind. The other result was that if Alpharius and his legion followed the Heresy and won then mankind would suffer for awhile and then overcome this rebellion and continue to exist. So, the choices for Alpharius and Omegon were extinction of mankind or a period of suffering for the galaxy followed by mankind surviving. They still considered themselves loyal to the Emperor and his goals.

[AirHorse]

I thought the choice was to side with the emperor and have mankind fall to chaos slowly and inevitably or to side against him and spare the galaxy from chaos as the brutal civil war between men would escalate to such levels that chaos would ultimately be burnt out by the death throws of mankind.

It seemed more to me that the alpha legion werent disloyal to the emperor but with a glimpse at that version of the future they decided they were more loyal to the existance of the galaxy.

It has been a while since i read legion mind you :)

[w7west]

I like how GW invented the warp and how it makes no sense. "hai guys, theres this thing its the warp and its like really wierd but monsters come out of it but you cant live in there but you can live in there if you are evil eldar or chaos but you can't live in there since it warps everything and there are crazy demons everywhere but they dont get warped its just ships and stuff but its ok to use ships in the warp but the warp ruins ships but its ok if you know where you are going but you can never know where you are going since it is the warp but the dark eldar know where they are going unless the Baron straps some thing on your ship but there are portals all over the place to go the webway which is like a blanket over the warp but it isn't anywhere but its everywhere but you can't see it but you can have huge societies in it but you can't enter or leave except through portals but the portals are enormous enough to accomodate an entire sun moving through them but you can't move suns since you will burn up but you can if you are dark eldar since they are smart, therefor immune to heat.

Damn this is some good weed.

[ColonelElibas]

I would like some good Imperial Guard secrets; aside from the mysterious Necrontyr spires on Cadia, and more Regiments of Merit.

[Laodamia]

I don't really know any big IG secret, I think this faction is simply not "mysterious" enough to keep any big conspiracy or secret.

EDIT: Actually, I think I could find a nice IG secret: in BOLS' Macharian Crusade campain, one of Macharius' elite regiments is the Merican Fusilers, directly recruited from Earth (and possibly North America, although it is not clearly stated). These boys get a superior training and the most expensive gear Terra can afford for a large group of army divisions (these freaks use bolters and hellguns as standard issue equipment!!!). From there, one could guess that these boys are the actual inheritors of 21st century's USA army elite forces (US rangers, SEALS, etc...), but I'm drifting away from the W40K universe.

My favourite W40K secret is that the Illuminati have infiltrated the Ordo Malleus and are gathering all the sensei they can find in the galaxy so that they can sacrifice them later and bring about the rebirth of the Emperor, thus saving humanity and killing all the chaos worshippers and xenos scum of the Milky Way Galaxy!

This would be a nice "happy end" for the W40K universe!:D

[shrike]

My favourite W40K secret is that the Illuminati have infiltrated the Ordo Malleus and are gathering all the sensei they can find in the galaxy so that they can sacrifice them later and bring about the rebirth of the Emperor, thus saving humanity and killing all the chaos worshippers and xenos scum of the Milky Way Galaxy!

This would be a nice "happy end" for the W40K universe!:D

I want the ending of 40k to be a massive battle, where IG, DH, SoB, SM, CSM, daemons, DE, eldar, tau, orks, 'nids, necrons and such are fighting- the IG, SM, SoB, DH vs nids vs DE, CSM, daemons vs tau, eldar vs orks and it all end with SM and GK back-to-back at the entrance to the emperor's palace and then squats fly in and bring all the lost loyalist primarchs in, who kill the daemons permanently and the emperor rises and gulliman heals and it will be awesome. *breathe heavily*

But my fave secret is the legion of the damned and grey knights.
My least favorite is the warp, which just contradicts itself, it'd be easier if they just said "It is a universe of hell, where daemons live." and the lost chapters. That's just poor writing.

[Behemotty]

I want the ending of 40k to be a massive battle, where IG, DH, SoB, SM, CSM, daemons, DE, eldar, tau, orks, 'nids, necrons and such are fighting- the IG, SM, SoB, DH vs nids vs DE, CSM, daemons vs tau, eldar vs orks and it all end with SM and GK back-to-back at the entrance to the emperor's palace and then squats fly in and bring all the lost loyalist primarchs in, who kill the daemons permanently and the emperor rises and gulliman heals and it will be awesome. *breathe heavily*

But my fave secret is the legion of the damned and grey knights.
My least favorite is the warp, which just contradicts itself, it'd be easier if they just said "It is a universe of hell, where daemons live." and the lost chapters. That's just poor writing.

Oh I like this. ♥

[Laodamia]

My least favorite is the warp, which just contradicts itself, it'd be easier if they just said "It is a universe of hell, where daemons live." and the lost chapters. That's just poor writing.

I think I get what you mean when you talk of the warp (being absolutely impossible to explain or to understand).

Concerning the lost chapters, I once thought that GW intended to reveal their true identity in one of their world-wide campaigns, or even introduce them as new factions for the game. But since the true story of the lost legions remains unknown after so many years, I think GW is just gonna leave it as it is.

So yeah, I agree with you, it is a pretty poor writing.

[Smotku]

My favorite secret is the Legion of the Damned...what are they?

Recently the speculation that Mephiston made a "deal" to survive. Is he something more than he seems?

Oh and as for the missing primarchs...One was named Ferdinand and just wanted to smell flowers. the other was named Herbert and just wanted to escape Swamp Castle so he could....just....singggg. Obviously the Emperor had to cover this up so they were both sent to a bording school in France.

[dannyat2460]

The whole point of every secret mentioned in this thread is that GW has an escape goat for any event they realised this after they decided to erase the squats from imperial records without any background to what happened to them which annoys the hell out of some vets so now they can go dark eldar are anoying lets get rid of them how... slanesh has gotten into the webway bye bye dark eldar, blood angels oops they all fell to the red thirst/black rage and mephiston turned into a deamon and is now in the chaos deamos codex as a special charecter or a foot note in the fluff, most codexs/chapters could be removed from the fluff in this way even ultramarines could be removed by a tyranid infestation in there chapter house as all the tyranid spores that are laying dorment on macrag,
Im going to start a new thread how to get rid of the entire 40K universe using the fluff lol,

As for my fav secret it has to be how Marneus Calgar is still alive and how his chapter still has any respect for him hes got owned by just about every other special character and had to have honour guard drag his sorry *** out of there too many times

[shrike]

I agree. He's been nearly killed by so many people I've lost count.
Someone should do an article all about the fails of the cheesey/mary sue SC's out there.
Calgar gets killed by everyone.
Telion didn't notice a raven guard captain, sergeant and techmarine (with servo-harness) standing in the same room as him. What a "lengendarily aware" old veteran. I think he has dementia.

[Lord Anubis]

Best kept secret of the 40K universe.

The C'Tan necrodermis is actually filled with chocolate.

True story.

[jorz192]

I think the whole story of the Ctan and the old ones will be smoothed out a little when a new Necron codex comes out. As well as a possible new Eldar codex

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Wow. My kind of thread.

I love the Emperor is a Old One. I can agree with about 100% of that line of thought.

I think the World of WHFB is a planet in the 40k Verse. Perhaps in the Eye of Terror. My guess would be one of the Eldar-home worlds. The Talk about the Old ones in the original WHFB book and then the Slaan in Rouge Trader sealed this for me. I think there is a powerfull Warp entity that has cast a Jinx pycic power over the world. Thats why the Tech is so primitive. The squats use rune magic to get around this.

Sigmar is one of the two Lost Primarchs. I think it was him who could not follow the Emperors orders about Religion. He was seen as a god on his home world. Maybe he could not break the habit. If his legion recruited from the Planet of WHFB, i cant see them not thinking Sigmar was a god.... Lorgar and Sigmar were probably best buddies.

The thought that Horus's Home "planet" was a big clone factory for mining i also agree with. If Horus was not really lost but choose Cthonia, that would answer a lot of my questions. I totally think the "Sons" of Horus were gene spliced clones of Horus. I find it odd that Horus's Cthonian Accent is a faked. The Luna Wolf Gene -seed was stable so the story saying the "Sons" looked like Horus because their gene Seed changed them is bull.

The 8 hooded Astartes taken to the Emperor by Malcador are the first Grand Masters of the Grey Knights.

My list.

1) Saul Tarvitz Captain, 10th Company, Emperors Children, III Legion.

2) Garviel Loken Captain 10th Company, Luna Wolves, XVI Legion.

3) Nethaniel Garro Battle-Captain 7th Company, Death Guard, XIV Legion.

4) Varren, Brother-Captain, World Eaters, XII Legion.

5) Zahariel El'Zurias, Librarian, Dark Angels, I Legion.

6) Mhotep, Fleet Captain, Thousand Sons, XV Legion.

7) Iron Warriors, IV Legion.

8) ??



I also think Dorn was a unwitting pawn of Horus. I think something happened to him after the Night Haunter kicked his @$$. I think his actions after that happened are very suspect. He included the Night Lords as part of the Loyal Legions sent to Isvaan V, After their Primarch almost killed him and did Murder some of his best Astartes. Then proceeded to blow up his own home World While Dorn Was in System (Dark King). Dorn was running a secret double agent with Horus with out telling the Custodes (Blood Games). (The Flight of the Eisenstein), Dorn forgets who Loken is after seconding his nomination to the Mournival (Horus Rising). Dorn forgets all about Konrad Cruz and after Malcador reminds him he almost has a breakdown (the Lighting Tower),. He is my guess as the person who warns Horus that a Assassin is coming to get him (Nemesis).

[Grailkeeper]

[QUOTE=Lord Lorne Walkier;116316]Wow. My kind of thread.


I think the World of WHFB is a planet in the 40k Verse. Perhaps in the Eye of Terror. My guess would be one of the Eldar-home worlds. The Talk about the Old ones in the original WHFB book and then the Slaan in Rouge Trader sealed this for me. I think there is a powerfull Warp entity that has cast a Jinx pycic power over the world. Thats why the Tech is so primitive. The squats use rune magic to get around this.

Sigmar is one of the two Lost Primarchs.so the story saying the "Sons" looked like Horus because their gene Seed changed them is bull.
QUOTE]

This used to be heavily implied in the fluff. There was even a fantasy story where a mercanary adventurer and a man who had turned himslf into a Slaan travelled to the frozen chaos wastes to a crashed star ship. Along the way they were attacked by daemonettes with chainswords. This Line of fluff,- htat fantasy was a world isolated by warp storms, which leaked in through the north bring ing chaos- and Sigmar being a primarch has since gone the way of the squats.

[MarneusCalgar]

Well, it has been long rumoured, and even hinted by GW itself years ago, but later vanished, that the Fantasy World was in 40K Universe and that even Sigmar should be one of the 2 lost Primarchs... That´s why he comes by a 2 tailed comet...

[Laodamia]

I like this idea that Sigmar is one of the two lost primarchs. It would mean that he was never united with his legion.
Thus, we could guess that this legion - without the guidance of its primarch - suffered a catastrophic and shameful military defeat and was subsequently erased from imperial reccords.

[Baron Spikey]

Wow. My kind of thread.

I love the Emperor is a Old One. I can agree with about 100% of that line of thought.

I think the World of WHFB is a planet in the 40k Verse. Perhaps in the Eye of Terror. My guess would be one of the Eldar-home worlds. The Talk about the Old ones in the original WHFB book and then the Slaan in Rouge Trader sealed this for me. I think there is a powerfull Warp entity that has cast a Jinx pycic power over the world. Thats why the Tech is so primitive. The squats use rune magic to get around this.
[Baron Spikey- quoting the rest takes up too much space].
That isn't a 'Secret of 40K' that's pure fan-fic.


Well, it has been long rumoured, and even hinted by GW itself years ago, but later vanished, that the Fantasy World was in 40K Universe and that even Sigmar should be one of the 2 lost Primarchs... That´s why he comes by a 2 tailed comet...


I like this idea that Sigmar is one of the two lost primarchs. It would mean that he was never united with his legion.
Thus, we could guess that this legion - without the guidance of its primarch - suffered a catastrophic and shameful military defeat and was subsequently erased from imperial reccords.

Sigmar was a mortal man, no stronger, larger, or more intelligent than most of his peers- it's been hinted over the last few years by hobbyists that the Fantasy world is part of the 40K Galaxy, apparently GW explicitly saying that is wrong isn't enough to quell the bull****. Ho hum.

[Laodamia]

Sigmar was a mortal man, no stronger, larger, or more intelligent than most of his peers- it's been hinted over the last few years by hobbyists that the Fantasy world is part of the 40K Galaxy, apparently GW explicitly saying that is wrong isn't enough to quell the bull****. Ho hum.

Sigmar was no "normal man"! He was the biggest badass of the warhammer world! He might not have been a primarch (though it would be seriously cool), but he was certainly not an "average human".

[Baron Spikey]

Sigmar was no "normal man"! He was the biggest badass of the warhammer world! He might not have been a primarch (though it would be seriously cool), but he was certainly not an "average human".

Didn't say he was average- but he was mortal, and not appreciably stronger, taller, or more intelligent than his peers.

If you want to think he's something else go ahead, I would never try to stop you from day dreaming.

[miteyheroes]

Sigmar was a mortal man, no stronger, larger, or more intelligent than most of his peers- it's been hinted over the last few years by hobbyists that the Fantasy world is part of the 40K Galaxy, apparently GW explicitly saying that is wrong isn't enough to quell the bull****. Ho hum.

Um, the WFB world is in the 40k universe, on the edge of the Eye of Terror. This was certainly common knowledge back in the early editions. This is why, for example, the continents are laid out in a suspiciously similar manner- the Old Ones often arranged worlds in that way. And it's why chainswords can be found in the Chaos Wastes. And so on.

It's been hinted at in more recent years- see the Liber Chaotica, for example. And Rick Priestley said it was the case in an interview back when they were first working on Warhammer Online (whilst discussing the origins of the Winds of Magic).

The stuff about the world being jinxed is just nonsense, there are plenty of feudal worlds in the 41st millennium. Ditto about Sigmar being a primarch- we know that he was born from his mum, he didn't drop out of space. But the WFB world is in the 40k universe.

[Baron Spikey]

Um, the WFB world is in the 40k universe, on the edge of the Eye of Terror. This was certainly common knowledge back in the early editions. This is why, for example, the continents are laid out in a suspiciously similar manner- the Old Ones often arranged worlds in that way. And it's why chainswords can be found in the Chaos Wastes. And so on.

It's been hinted at in more recent years- see the Liber Chaotica, for example. And Rick Priestley said it was the case in an interview back when they were first working on Warhammer Online (whilst discussing the origins of the Winds of Magic).

The stuff about the world being jinxed is just nonsense, there are plenty of feudal worlds in the 41st millennium. Ditto about Sigmar being a primarch- we know that he was born from his mum, he didn't drop out of space. But the WFB world is in the 40k universe.

No- once upon a time it might have been, but GW have explicitly said that is no longer the case.

Personally I just think the Warhammer Fantasy world is an alternate reality Earth/Terra, explains the similar yet different geography. I chuckled when I read your statement that the continent positions show the hand of the Old Ones, 2 worlds with similar geography doesn't mean that that was the preferred layout for the Old Ones.

Any chance you could link this interview with Rick Priestly because if it's true and you're not just coming to tenuous conclusions it'll be the first time GW have said that 40k and FB are situated in the same universe in several years (Liber Chaotica doesn't say anything about them being in the same reality, it's equally as plausible that the 2 universes are connected by the Warp, allowing for a degree of 'leakage' from either reality into the other)

[Laodamia]

I chuckled when I read your statement that the continent positions show the hand of the Old Ones, 2 worlds with similar geography doesn't mean that that was the preferred layout for the Old Ones.

No, it just means that GW was too lazy to design a new geography for the warhammer world.;)

Personnally, I don't understand why the warhammer world has been "erased" from the warhammer 40k universe. It would explain a lot of things about the fantasy world as well as linking it to a much larger background.

@Baron Spikey: I trust you when you say that the warhammer world is not in the warhammer 40k universe, but do you know why GW decided to "disconnect" the two worlds? It sounds pretty stupid to me, I think many fans like the fact that warhammer and warhammer 40k were connected.

[miteyheroes]

No- once upon a time it might have been, but GW have explicitly said that is no longer the case.

Since I posted this morning I've been trying to track down stuff on this topic. Everyone says that now GW explicitly said this is no longer the case- where did they say this?


Personally I just think the Warhammer Fantasy world is an alternate reality Earth/Terra, explains the similar yet different geography. I chuckled when I read your statement that the continent positions show the hand of the Old Ones, 2 worlds with similar geography doesn't mean that that was the preferred layout for the Old Ones.

In the old fluff this was a specific world-layout the Old Ones used to use. Again, it was mentioned in the Rick Priestley interview.


Any chance you could link this interview with Rick Priestly because if it's true and you're not just coming to tenuous conclusions it'll be the first time GW have said that 40k and FB are situated in the same universe in several years (Liber Chaotica doesn't say anything about them being in the same reality, it's equally as plausible that the 2 universes are connected by the Warp, allowing for a degree of 'leakage' from either reality into the other)

I've been searching for this interview this morning. Sadly it was when they were first developing Warhammer Online, before it was stopped (2004?) And the old website seems to have gone down when the new game started being developed. If there's anyone that's better than me at tracking down long-dead websites, I'd love to hear from them.

I used to have a copy of the interview on my hard-drive, and I remember posting it in a forum. But my hard-drive has since died, and I can't track down my original posting. It's possibly my post was on Portent or the old official GW boards - which have both since died...

I'll keep looking! I'd love to have the interview again.

[eldargal]

I can't provide a source because it was at a GD seminar years and years ago that Priestley said the universes were seperate. From what I recall the reason was that 40k had grown beyond 'WFB in space', they were moving away from the straight analogies between races (which is one of the reasons Squats were dropped, no room for viking Space Dorfs) and into fleshing out 40k as more of its own thing. They felt having WFB as a planet within that universe detracted from both settings. I'm inclined to agree personally.

[miteyheroes]

Personally I just think the Warhammer Fantasy world is an alternate reality Earth/Terra, explains the similar yet different geography. I chuckled when I read your statement that the continent positions show the hand of the Old Ones, 2 worlds with similar geography doesn't mean that that was the preferred layout for the Old Ones.

Rick Priestley quote: "Anyone remember why the Warhammer World looks vaguely like our own world? Well – according to the back story – the world was created by the Old One engineers who moved the planet closer to the sun before arranging the continents into their standard hydro-geographic pattern to create suitable conditions for colonisation!"

To find it, go to http://web.archive.org/web/20030310062642/http://www.warhammeronline.com/newpages/page_2.html# and click on the link on the right-hand side, entitled "12th October 2001 A brief history of the Warhammer World - Part 1". A pop-out box should open.

I'm still looking for the other quote, about WFB being in the 40k universe. It looks like they changed the website's layout in early 2003, and the Wayback Machine hasn't then caught all the changes to the http://www.warhammeronline.com/news.asp page. Which is very irritating!

But yes, fair enough if they've said in person this is old fluff they no longer stick to. I still like it.

[Laodamia]

From what I recall the reason was that 40k had grown beyond 'WFB in space', they were moving away from the straight analogies between races (which is one of the reasons Squats were dropped, no room for viking Space Dorfs) and into fleshing out 40k as more of its own thing. They felt having WFB as a planet within that universe detracted from both settings. I'm inclined to agree personally.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

[Baron Spikey]

Rick Priestley quote: "Anyone remember why the Warhammer World looks vaguely like our own world? Well – according to the back story – the world was created by the Old One engineers who moved the planet closer to the sun before arranging the continents into their standard hydro-geographic pattern to create suitable conditions for colonisation!"

But see that statement could also be taken as the fact that the Old Ones, the undisputed master of inter-dimensional travel, have been a major part of both realities; Fantasy and 40K.

That theory would certainly open the way that Terra and the WFB World are one and the same but in alternate realities.

Really you could spin Priestly's statement either way if you had a mind to.

[miteyheroes]

But see that statement could also be taken as the fact that the Old Ones, the undisputed master of inter-dimensional travel, have been a major part of both realities; Fantasy and 40K.

That theory would certainly open the way that Terra and the WFB World are one and the same but in alternate realities.

Really you could spin Priestly's statement either way if you had a mind to.

Yes, but by this time you've ended up with WFB and 40k being connected through the warp, it being possible to travel between the two, and people in one place receiving visions from the other.
Is being in the same multiverse really that different to being in the same universe?

[Laodamia]

That theory would certainly open the way that Terra and the WFB World are one and the same but in alternate realities.

No, that's impossible. WFB and earth must be different planets. They have a clearly different (though relatively similar) geography, climate, etc. If they were just different "aspects" of the same planet, there should be far more similarities between the two worlds.

Actually, given the fact that there are a hell a lot of similarities between the W40K universe and WFB, most fans think that the two backgrounds must be linked with each other. It could explain a lot of things about WFB (where do orks, eldars, humans, etc come from; the origins of the chaos gods;...).

But whatever GW or us say about the connection between the two universes, I think it is pretty much up to the fans themselves to decide whether they think the two games are linked or not in their mind.

[Baron Spikey]

Yes, but by this time you've ended up with WFB and 40k being connected through the warp, it being possible to travel between the two, and people in one place receiving visions from the other.
Is being in the same multiverse really that different to being in the same universe?
Well GW have said 40k and WFB aren't in the same universe, nothing about the same multiverse ;)

No, that's impossible. WFB and earth must be different planets. They have a clearly different (though relatively similar) geography, climate, etc. If they were just different "aspects" of the same planet, there should be far more similarities between the two worlds.
Because they're alternate reality versions of each other? The same planet, occupying the same space but in different universes with varying amounts of interference from the Old Ones.


Actually, given the fact that there are a hell a lot of similarities between the W40K universe and WFB, most fans think that the two backgrounds must be linked with each other. It could explain a lot of things about WFB (where do orks, eldars, humans, etc come from; the origins of the chaos gods;...).
Most fans? You mean 'some' fans.
The link through the warp being a connecting reality also explains all those things you pointed out.


But whatever GW or us say about the connection between the two universes, I think it is pretty much up to the fans themselves to decide whether they think the two games are linked or not in their mind.
First thing we both completely agree on.

[Legoklods]

Just to make this as clear as possible:
The fantasy planet has two moons!!!!
:eek:
Terra only got the moon.

That should make it clear to everyone that the two universes are diffenrent...

[miteyheroes]

Just to make this as clear as possible:
The fantasy planet has two moons!!!!
:eek:
Terra only got the moon.

That should make it clear to everyone that the two universes are diffenrent...

Not if the WFB world is a different planet in the same universe. All that it proves is that the WFB world isn't Terra. But that's pretty obvious...

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Love this thread.

Emporers name: Jervis Johnson.

I think personally that one of the lost Legions is the Custodes. They are more powerful than that of SM's, if you look at the old pictures of them, they ARE space marines. Wearing power armour, wielding the same weapons and can threaten anyone who dares to speak in the presents of the Emporer.

Only a few lucky few called Auditorii Imperator have ever seen him since he was intered on the throne.
So far Inquisitor Lord Rex, and Alicia Dominica and her fellow sisters have been honoured with an audience.

As for the Emporer being an Old One, makes sense, but why allow himself to fall to Horus, why allow himself to be enthroned?
If he was all that powerful, why not just heal himself instead?

Also, intriging me is what happened to Horus's body, i know that Abaddon found him, took his lightning claw, but what then? Did it get buried, placed in stasis? burnt or what??
Where is Horus??
If Dorn is said to be healing in stasis, would'nt the might of Horus be able to heal too??

Persoannly i would love to know what was sad to Alicia and her sisters to make them stop fighting, slay Vandire. IS he alive, who would know, is he healed, can he talk, or is his mighto of telepathy still strong in the throne?

So many misteries

[miteyheroes]

I think personally that one of the lost Legions is the Custodes. They are more powerful than that of SM's, if you look at the old pictures of them, they ARE space marines. Wearing power armour, wielding the same weapons and can threaten anyone who dares to speak in the presents of the Emporer.

The Custodes could contain some members of the Lost Legions, I guess. But it's normally said they're like Marines... but different. They're individually crafted, whilst Marines are more done in bulk.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes#Outlook_and_training


As for the Emporer being an Old One, makes sense, but why allow himself to fall to Horus, why allow himself to be enthroned?
If he was all that powerful, why not just heal himself instead?

He probably wasn't an Old One, and was probably made by the self-sacrifice & mingling of power of a whole bunch of powerful shamans, thousands of years BC.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor#Origins


Also, intriging me is what happened to Horus's body, i know that Abaddon found him, took his lightning claw, but what then? Did it get buried, placed in stasis? burnt or what??
Where is Horus??
If Dorn is said to be healing in stasis, would'nt the might of Horus be able to heal too??

Horus' body was taken away by the CSMs after his duel with the Emperor. It was worshipped by the Sons of Horus. Then the Emperor's Children stole it and cloned it. Abaddon changed the name of the Sons of Horus to the Black Legion, and lead the attack that destroyed the clones and the original body.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus#Horus.27s_body

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Lexicanum is far from canon.

Though i like the picture of the Custodes in Terminator armour, that says to me they have to be more than just men to wear that.
To be able to fight Chaos, guard the webway portal in the basement and protect the Emporer aswell, their not just men, they would have to be more than just enhanced humans like Inquisitor Rex is.

[FastEd]

Another thing worth noting on the Old Ones is that they and the Slann are one and the same, though in this case they are referred to as the Old Slann since this would be before they decided to purposefully step aside, and to some degree regress their own culture, to a more simple state, it being implied they had learned some great cosmic truth (along with that whole war with the C'Tan thing). That would mean if the Emperor were an Old One he would be a frog man. The timeline also doesn't match up for him being one at all, since the Old Ones bailed well before the Eldar birthed Slaanesh thus creating the Eye of Terror, unless we assume the story of him being born 8,000 years B.C., and him stalking through human history in the background, only sometimes interfering in the affairs of the world (and implying heavily that he, for a time, was Jesus). The first Imperial record of the Emperor lists him as one of the warlords battling for control in the latter part of the age of strife.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor#Origins

[jumai]

Also, intriging me is what happened to Horus's body, i know that Abaddon found him, took his lightning claw, but what then? Did it get buried, placed in stasis? burnt or what??
Where is Horus??

As per Abaddon's fluff in the 2e codex, Horus' body was taken to the Eye by the Sons of Horus, but Sons' command structure broke down quickly, and the fortress housing the stasis-vault was lost to World Eaters aggressors. The World Eaters eventually discovered it and started trying to clone Horus, which the Sons of Horus saw as a deep sacrilige. This event provided a strong common cause to the Sons, catalyzing Abaddon's emergence and consolidation of power. Upon his legion swearing their oaths to him as Warmaster, Abaddon's first act was to rename the Sons the Black Legion, who painted over their old honours in memory of their shame. His second was to unleash a relentless campaign against the World Eaters which ultimately shattered them irreversibly into isolated warbands, uprooted them from their conquered daemon worlds, and destroyed completely the genetics project housing Horus, his unfinished clones, and his stray genetic material.

[Baron Spikey]

As per Abaddon's fluff in the 2e codex, Horus' body was taken to the Eye by the Sons of Horus, but Sons' command structure broke down quickly, and the fortress housing the stasis-vault was lost to World Eaters aggressors. The World Eaters eventually discovered it and started trying to clone Horus, which the Sons of Horus saw as a deep sacrilige. This event provided a strong common cause to the Sons, catalyzing Abaddon's emergence and consolidation of power. Upon his legion swearing their oaths to him as Warmaster, Abaddon's first act was to rename the Sons the Black Legion, who painted over their old honours in memory of their shame. His second was to unleash a relentless campaign against the World Eaters which ultimately shattered them irreversibly into isolated warbands, uprooted them from their conquered daemon worlds, and destroyed completely the genetics project housing Horus, his unfinished clones, and his stray genetic material.
If that was true then it's no longer the case, it was the Emperor's Children that stole the body of Horus and attempted to clone it. It was Kharne the Betrayer's actions that split the World Eaters Legion.

[miteyheroes]

Lexicanum is far from canon.

True, but those sections of the articles are all fairly good and agree with stuff from published GW sources.


Though i like the picture of the Custodes in Terminator armour, that says to me they have to be more than just men to wear that.
To be able to fight Chaos, guard the webway portal in the basement and protect the Emporer aswell, their not just men, they would have to be more than just enhanced humans like Inquisitor Rex is.

The Custodes are, if anything, better than Space Marines. Each one is an individually crafted gene-bulked super man. Custodes are less than Primarks, but better than Marines.
Their key weakness is that Space Marines operate as squads and co-operatively; whilst Custodes are individuals. Even when they're in a squad, it's a group of individuals fighting as individuals not a group using squad tactics.

[FastEd]

I'm curious as to where people get the idea that Custodes are more capable, at least as individuals as you said, then the Astartes. I can't think of anything that's talked about it, though that may be because I'm an ignorant fool who hasn't gotten around to reading nearly as many of the novels as I would like to.

[miteyheroes]

Their stats in Rogue Trader (the last time they had stats) were rather tasty. Very old info, I know...

Also their portrayal in First Heretic seemed to suggest it? It was definitely First Heretic that pointed out that they're only good as individuals, they don't work as a squad.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Emperor>>>> Primarchs>>>>> Custodes>>>>> Astartes>>>>> Human.

[FastEd]

I'll have to read through First Heretic then I guess. Didn't even realize they had stats in RT though. I've seen custom models around for the, but did GW put out models for them back in the RT days?

I'd also like to thank Lord Lorne Walkier for his help, adding so much to the conversation, providing a well thought out argument, explaining it in detail, and his eloquent use of the > sign. I applaud you, sir, and award you one, still in box, brand new, internet. :D

[miteyheroes]

I'll have to read through First Heretic then I guess. Didn't even realize they had stats in RT though. I've seen custom models around for the, but did GW put out models for them back in the RT days?

Everything had stats in RT! The Custodes described there wore black cloaks with leather breeches and boots, and naked torsoes. They had tall imposing helmets, and carried things that looked like spears but were in fact lasers. Crazy times. The basic Custodes were M 4, WS & BS 5, S & T 4, W 2, I 5, A 2, Ld 8. Their Int, Cl and WP were also 8, because that was Rogue Trader when leadership was complex...
To compare, basic Marines were M 4, WS & BS 4, S 4, T 3, W 1, I 4, A 1, Ld (and so on) 8. So Custodes had +1 WS, BS, T, W, I and A. Their main disadvantage was that Custodes had no armour. Of course, in the Heresy Era Custodes have armour that's even better than Marine armour. So Custodes are super-awesome in the Heresy.
I don't remember seeing any official models? There may have been. There were a few pictures in 1st and 2nd ed.

Incidentally, if you want to just flip through to see Custodes vs Marines compared in First Heretic then p.125-128 is a key section. Some Marines see Custodes fight for the first time. At first they're blown away by how good they are. But then they see something's wrong, before realising that they're not working as a group- they're warriors not soldiers, lions not wolves.
In the same section, the way Custodes are made is described: "Custodes were sons of a more rarefied and time-consuming process- the biological manipulation that gave birth to the Emperor's guardians bred warriors who weren't shackled by bonds of loyalty to anyone except their Imperial overlord".

[LEGION]

LOTS of good stuff in this thread. There is one thing i didn't run across though while reading it. In one of the Inquisitor game books there was a faction that believed that the Emperor was in fact ALREADY DEAD. And the reason they have to feed 1000 psychers to the throne is to create the psychic scream of the astronomicon. That totally blew my mind when I read it.

Now for the supposition part:
I for one believe the Emperor IS an old one. Perhaps the last remaining one. In any case people keep asking how could he be fooled or defeated if he was so powerful. Its simple really, the old ones were NOT INFALLIBLE. In fact all the 40k history is built on the failings of the Old Ones. They made the Orks and that didn't work, then the Eldar and that failed and all the other times they screwed up. This could simply be chalked up to the fact that he was blindsided by his own perfection. A lot of times when we feel superior and everything is going along smooth, that is when we miss the little thing that bites us in the Butt.

Also along the lines of the Deceiver is Cegorach line. I as a necron AND Eldar player I have to agree they are the same. I personally don't think the Deceiver likes the other C'tan at all and wants them all dead. That way he can have free reign to plot and scheme as he sees fit with the universe. And to that end he has some kind of alliance with the old one(s) and/or the Eldar Gods and actively aids the Eldar Harlequins to fight both the C'tan AND Chaos. He orchestrated the development of the Tau. I'm pretty sure the Deceiver is fighting on his OWN side and wants to take the whole cake after the End Times. The best way to do that though is to help the little races defeat all the big Gods.

Another thing that I didn't see touched on is that I don't think the Eldar gods were actual gods at all, but in-fact the Old Ones that merely presented themselves as such. Kind of like Farscape and the Go'auld. How do you, as a superpower interdimensional being present yourself to the race that you just created. "Uh hi, we are your gods. This is what we need you to do for us." It is possible that they used their psychic powers to APPEAR as the Eldar expected them to look. Or merely over the millions of years the actual likeness of the old ones was morphed by the Eldar stories so that they generally appear as Eldar. Kind of like how Jesus appears white to most people but in Korea he looks Korean.

[Michael_maggs]

dont know if its already been said but the ultramarines are traitors
not chaos worshippers but userpers to the imperial throne

heavily suggested in age of darkness that guilliman was planning his own rebellion once horus is defeated

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Kind of like Farscape and the Go'auld.. I think you refer to Stargate... :)


dont know if its already been said but the ultramarines are traitors
not chaos worshippers but userpers to the imperial throne

heavily suggested in age of darkness that guilliman was planning his own rebellion once horus is defeated

Really? Never heard that one xD

[Michael_maggs]

I think you refer to Stargate... :)



Really? Never heard that one xD

its still at the mad conspiracy theory stage but...
Age of darkness
rules of engagement: Gilliman states they would have to do something that could label them as traitors and come to blows with the other loyalist legions
the Iron within:Iron warrior loyalists are recruited to show guilliman how the iron warriors would destroy (or strengthen) the imperial palace; this may not be so bad at first glance but the ultramarines are unable to reach terra and as the loyalists were besieged for over a year)
Strange weapons: Guilliman summons the lion to his side instead of returning to terra to which the primarch retorts "It seems Horus is not the only soul to believe he is heir to the empire"
the first heretic
Lorgar suggests that the 2nd and 11th legions were assimilated into the ultra marines
soul drinkers
Dorn is stated as the staunchest opponent of the codex astartes and presents the soulspear to the souldrinkers chapter to remind them of their loyalty to their primarch; from this i infer this was to prevent the VII legion from being to fractured in the aftermath of theCodex asterties crisis (see dorns entry on lexicanum) where Guilliman imposes his decrees on the legions and denounces dorn as a traitor for refusing.

its my opinion that Guilliman lead a coup once his main rivals were subdued (the emperor and horus dead, the other legions severly depleated) and the legions were split to prevent a serious opponent from emerging in the future; the XIII legion sucessor chapters could be guaranteed of their loyalty through psychoindoctination (codex astarties; rules of engagement)
it should also be noted that Guilliman is seen as the Imperiums greatest hero despite the being at any of the main battles of the heresy and if you take legion at face value and believe the alpha legion are still loyal it can be infered that their continued hatred and wish to destroy the sons of Guilliman is an attack on the userping imperium of ultramar

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Ahhh I have seen the Soul Drinker bit before :). I love the idea that Alphas might still be loyal too :L. It's a clever mad conspiracy, especially as Guilliman (literally) rose to the challenge of the writing the Codex Astartes

[bfmusashi]

That Commoraugh is Ankh-Morpork but totally dark.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Dunno if this was mentioned with regards Abaddon (sorry, can't be arsed to read the entire thread) but surely the gold skinned giant is Lorgar?

[murrburger]

I think it's supposed to be the Deceiver.

Don't forget that Ultramar is its own empire that does not pay tithe to the Imperium.

[tactica]

I love the idea of the lost legions, it leaves this gap in the fluff that you can fill with you own creations. Great stuff

[Kirkanos]

I love the idea of the lost legions, it leaves this gap in the fluff that you can fill with you own creations. Great stuff

Not for much longer I'd say, there seems to be more and more mention of them in the books; quite a few references to them in First heretic.

I'd like to know what happened to them to be honest, there's enough room in the fluff to create stuff; I don't see how 2 Chapters who were completely disbanded means you could create your own stuff unless you're playing very early 30K.

[Psychosplodge]

Got a new one, I love the idea in the "battle of the fang" that Magnus and the 1000 sons know where Russ is....

[Thornblood]

More of a question really... If Terra is half (or entirely not sure which) a giant industrial temple to the emperor (or some such) I would like to know what happened to my house, and also if the adeptus mechanicus archeologists ever found an old GW hobby centre and took the Black Library novels to be prophecies.

[Anggul]

The Ethereals.

Oh, and the Illuminati, who seem to be involved with the Alpha Legion. Everything surrounding the Harlequins is awesome, and this is one of those things.

[Jmaximum]

Erm..I always thought they were the Inquisition's founders. Garro and Quzre aren't psykers and all Grey Knights are. Also I thought the Sigilite said they'd form a group to combat Xeno's, Traitors and witches....which leads me to say Inquisition.
I could be talking out my backside of course.

Alpharius/Omegon-yeah I did NOT see that one coming. Twins 'eh? So who is alive?

I believe in 'Legion' Ommegon (sp?) gets killed. Been a while since I read it though.
I thought it was hinted at that
A) Malcador the Sigillite's genome was used to create the Grey Knights
B) and another curveball: in "The First Heretic" it is hinted at the Emperor Himself is the Primarch for the Custodes.

[radarbabyeater]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, I don't think I saw it anywhere.

One of my favorites is the Tyranids being attracted to the light of the Astronomicon... will it be a big feeding frenzy or... bug zapper?

I enjoy the secrecy and plots within plots within plots of the Imperium and the rest of the galaxy, though. It's cool that most of the other races have some sort of explainable origin story... all nice and planned and orchestrated.

Then there are the Tyranids. The epitome of evolution, the theory of a collective unconcioussness manifest, the highest rung on the ladder of predation. The Tyranids represent the eventual fate of the 40k galaxy and they represent an ageless concept: You can't fight nature and win.

Behemoth came in like, well... a behemoth. Some of you said that maybe the Tyranids must not be that smart or maybe they just gave up and left... started drifting because they couldn't beat their native competitores elsewhere.

Logic would tell me otherwise. They attacked like a behemoth initially because it was a strategy that worked wherever they came from. They learned and evolved in the span of a few hundred hundred years, attacked again, failed, learned, evolved, attacked again... rinse, repeat. The frightening truth is that in the 40k galaxy, the Tyranids are the aliens from a different universe that we always wanted to believe were out there. Out there watching, waiting, secretly helping us from a distance.

Half-true.

They were watching. They were waiting. But, oh, they weren't planned for. And they're not here to help. They are most definitely, positively, the Great Devourer, the Hive Mind, the doom of all living things.

:D

[energongoodie]

Got a new one, I love the idea in the "battle of the fang" that Magnus and the 1000 sons know where Russ is....

Agreed. Like this one.

[Wildeybeast]

I believe in 'Legion' Ommegon (sp?) gets killed. Been a while since I read it though.

If I recall correctly neither of them dies in Legion. Supposedly the Primarch of the Alpha legion has been killed in the later fluff, though this is from the Imperial POV and not knowing there are two of them. Also, given the way the Alpha legion works, I would be surprised if either of them was actually dead.

[originoo]

If I recall correctly neither of them dies in Legion. Supposedly the Primarch of the Alpha legion has been killed in the later fluff, though this is from the Imperial POV and not knowing there are two of them. Also, given the way the Alpha legion works, I would be surprised if either of them was actually dead.

So in this case the Imperial POV is not the Emperor POV? The Emperor created the Primarchs, why shouldn't anyone else in the inner circle of the Emperor know of Alpharius and Omegon? Ok, it's been quite a while since creation. But the Empire is quite good at archiving stuff...

[eldargal]

If the Imperium knew everything the Emperor knew the Imperium would be a vastly different place.

[odinsgrandson]

But the Empire is quite good at archiving stuff...

I wonder if this is sarcasm or not. I mean, they are losing territory to the Tau.


So in this case the Imperial POV is not the Emperor POV?


Definitely not. The Emperor did not keep anyone in his inner circle.

For a long while, there was an official behind the scenes story for the fluff: The Emperor is a Chaos God.

If you examine the fluff closely, you'll note that there have always been four gods of chaos. None of the fluff indicates that there were only three before the rise of Slaanesh. Also note that the fall of the Eldar and the rise of Slaanesh coincide directly with the first sightings of the Emperor on earth

The Emperor was able to take over earth because he was such a powerful being, and also a powerful psyker- the fall of the Eldar provided the stabilization of Warp Space such that other planets could be reached and brought into the Imperium.

- If the Emperor were simply a human who had been born with superior psychic abilities, then creating Primarchs from him would, at best, create powerful psykers. Instead, we got twenty primarchs who seemingly had little or no innate psychic power (Magnus the Red learned sorcery from books). But their strength and endurance were beyond superhuman. They were godlings.

- Also note that the Imperial Cult began to surface during the crusades- before the Emperor became comatose. The only instance of him discouraging this religious fervor in his name was when he told the Word Bearers that they were going a little too far.

- If all of this is true, then the Golden Throne itself is part of the designs of Tzeentch. If the Emperor were to truly die, then the power he would have from all of the devotion to his name would allow him to quickly overpower the other lords of chaos and rule them.


Now, I believe that this line of thinking has been abandoned by some of the later fluff writers, so there is probably something that contradicts it somewhere. But this is the older "behind the scenes" fluff.

[CiaphasCain]

If the Imperium knew everything the Emperor knew the Imperium would be a vastly different place.Well, if The Imperium knew everything that the Emperor knew, the Emperor would have had to find another way to become a god, now wouldn't he? Whether he wanted it or not, eventually, the Emperor figured out that no matter how much you disbelieve it, chaos isn't going anywhere.

Being an athiest makes perfect sense. If there aren't actual gods who are out to eat your entire race.


they are losing territory to the Tau. They lose much more territory to bookkeeping errors every century than they do to the Tau. The Tau are about as important as humanity was during their expansion period in the 22-29th century, which is barely anything on a galactic (Eldar Race) scale.

[Jmaximum]

It says on Lexicanum that Abaddon was guided to the resting place of his daemon sword by a Gold-Skinned Stranger now who do we know with gold skin ;) cough* deceiver cough*, and what does this mean. Why do the C'tan want to help Chaos when they hate it as much (possibly more) as everyone else.

I may be waaaaaaaaaaaay behind on this convo, but I wanted to chime in. I have not read this before, about Abaddon, but dont forget Lorgar was also gold-skinned, so was the Emperor is some tellings. not that that says much at all, I just wanted to point it out.

[Jmaximum]

I realise I'm coming into this thread late, forgive my last post.

What bugs me is that if the Emperor is so awesome and powerful and farseeing, couldn't he have predicted the end of Chaos by allowing Horus to win and blow itself out in a immaterial armageddon, as the Cabal forsaw? If he did infact see it the same way, why on earth would he have stopped Horus? Did he change his mind in the last second? Is he mad? What's the reasoning there?

In an old trilogy by Abnett: Xenos/Malleus/Hereticus (the Inquisitor Eisenhorn series): (man, I hope I am quoting the right set of books here): apparently the Emperor has gone a bit mad, or schizophrenic, as the Inquisitor actually gets an audience with the Emperor on the Throne, and realizes he is speaking with multiple facets of the Emperor, NOT a single being.But,t his is also from the 2nd edition rules days, waaaay back. They also had something in that series where Space marines were actually mind wiped after any battles with Chaos, as the memories of the encounter would otherwise drive them mad.

[Psychosplodge]

In an old trilogy by Abnett: Xenos/Malleus/Hereticus (the Inquisitor Eisenhorn series): (man, I hope I am quoting the right set of books here): apparently the Emperor has gone a bit mad, or schizophrenic, as the Inquisitor actually gets an audience with the Emperor on the Throne, and realizes he is speaking with multiple facets of the Emperor, NOT a single being.But,t his is also from the 2nd edition rules days, waaaay back. They also had something in that series where Space marines were actually mind wiped after any battles with Chaos, as the memories of the encounter would otherwise drive them mad.

Not the Eisenhorn series, it's the Ian Watkinson "Inquisition War" I think. that you're thinking of.

[Jmaximum]

Not the Eisenhorn series, it's the Ian Watkinson "Inquisition War" I think. that you're thinking of.

Is one of the books 'Demon Child'? Maybe its that series instead. But at least you know what I meant :)
Yeah it was a weird read, after reading much of the fluff based on the revamped universe and rules.

[Psychosplodge]

Is one of the books 'Demon Child'? Maybe its that series instead. But at least you know what I meant :)
Yeah it was a weird read, after reading much of the fluff based on the revamped universe and rules.

Not sure, only read it as a trilogy. But it was always weird....;)

[Jmaximum]

Not sure, only read it as a trilogy. But it was always weird....;)

It was Draco, Harlequin, and Chaos Child by Ian Watson.

[bfmusashi]

If you examine the fluff closely, you'll note that there have always been four gods of chaos. None of the fluff indicates that there were only three before the rise of Slaanesh. Also note that the fall of the Eldar and the rise of Slaanesh coincide directly with the first sightings of the Emperor on earth


I recommend Codex: Daemons for a counterpoint. The Realm of Chaos is a place where everything has happened, will happen, and never happens. Slaanesh has existed as long as the warp, never been born, and was born. In short, the warp has no sense of causality.
This is the crux of the warp/realspace problem as they really shouldn't interact. Daemons become almost sympathetic when you imagine every ship with a gellar field showing up in your backyard all at once or that causality may be a narcotic to entities forced to exist in all possible states simultaneously. I know I'd pop a psyker open every so often if it meant I could exist without simultaneously not existing at the same time.
Also of note, the Emperor is just one phase Captain Uberman's existence. Previously he just prodded humanity from the shadows trying to get it to stop sucking so much.

[bfmusashi]

They lose much more territory to bookkeeping errors every century than they do to the Tau. The Tau are about as important as humanity was during their expansion period in the 22-29th century, which is barely anything on a galactic (Eldar Race) scale.

This is not an accurate comparison. Both Humans and Eldar were galaxy spanning super powers in their time and both are still finding all the crap their respective empires left sitting around. It is important to remember that no date is established for the beginning of the Eldar decline and it could have been well underway well before humans ever left the solar system. Let's be clear here, there was stuff going on in the Eldar Empire that made riding dinosaurs look like an act of asceticism. We can not conceive of their radness. Humans had the wikipedia 9000 that told you how to tear moons from their orbits using nothing but bamboo. This combined with the galvanizing power of human boredom is a truly horrifying concept and likely explains how Orks were kept in check.

[edger1]

I always thought the Emperor was a being born out of a mass suicide of druids who where losing there ability to reincarnate because the ever increasing threat of chaos was taking there souls,so when they all comitted suicide it birthed the being who is the emperor so he is human but a all powerful one who has sat in the backround for millenia watching humanity rise and fall,he then decided to rise up in the unity wars creating his first soldiers from genetics which where the thunder warriors, after them he then refined the technology to create the custodes, they are superior to the marines but they take a long time develop so creating a army of those to take over the galaxy would take to long. So he used the technology to creata his primarchs which are all technically a part of him in some way but split thats why magnus is the powerful Psyker it does say in most of the BL books that all the primarchs havea some kind of psyker abilty or resistance to psyker abilities in some way some like Lorgar even look like him,i believe what im saying is backed up on Lexicanum so i do believe the emperor isnt a god or Deamon in any way. personally i like the fluff to do with sensei being the emerors actual offspring and that they can bring about another birth of the emperor being known as the star child. Personnaly i think this hole only war thing and the humanity being stagnent doom and gloom thing is getting tedious and boring its about time GW moved the story on and gave us something new and fresh.

[Psychosplodge]

That was first edition...

[DrLove42]

Jesus dude. Paragraphs and Punctuation

I actually can't read that. The first full stop is at the end of the 7th line...

[Psychosplodge]

I think I blinked and missed it...

[Wolfshade]

I always thought the Emperor was a being born out of a mass suicide of druids, who where losing there ability to reincarnate because the ever increasing threat of chaos taking there souls. So, when they all comitted suicide it birthed the being who is the emperor so he is human but an all powerful one who has sat in the backround for millenia watching humanity rise and fall.
He then decided to rise up in the unity wars creating his first soldiers from genetics which were the thunder warriors; after them he then refined the technology to create the custodes, they are superior to the marines but they take a long time develop, so creating an army of those to take over the galaxy would take too long.
He used the technology to create his primarchs which are all technically a part of him in some way but split, that's why Magnus is the powerful psyker. It does say in most of the BL books that all the primarchs have some kind of psyker abilty or resistance to psyker abilities in some way, some like Lorgar even look like the Emperor.
I believe what I'm saying is backed up on Lexicanum so I do believe the Emperor isn't a god or Deamon in any way. Personally, I like the fluff to do with the sensei being the Emperor's actual offspring and that they can bring about another birth of the Emperor being known as the "Star Child.
I think this whole "only war" thing and the humanity being stagnent doom and gloom thing is getting tedious and boring it's about time GW moved the story on and gave us something new and fresh.
There I fixed it :D

I would say that the Lexicanum is a wiki and it's quotes are based on literature that can be/'has been retconned and so does not add any additional information to the existing source material.

5th edition did start to move the universe forwards (for the very first time) and I think 6th will see it move further. What GW does not want to run the risk of is moving it too far away so that the background feels different from the universe they have spent a couple of decades building and we as players have spent a couple of decades absorbing and making "our own".

[TheVoidmaster]

I would like to know if the Tyranids where sent by the Old Ones. Our ancient enemy....

[edger1]

Jesus dude. Paragraphs and Punctuation

I actually can't read that. The first full stop is at the end of the 7th line...

sorry dude sometimes when i write i just gotta get it out of my head and written down before i forget what i was writing :).

[eldargal]

I so hope not, I hate that sort of incestuous background where all the races are linked by some kind of ancient thingamie. It is bad enough with the Necrons and Eldar (though less bad than it was now that the war between them seems not to have taken place to teh same extent as before).

I would like to know if the Tyranids where sent by the Old Ones. Our ancient enemy....

[Jmaximum]

I also think the Emperor is a fallen Old One, but then so perhaps is Sigmar. But they are not the same person, or are they?
Dosadi

This blows my mind, as perhaps his personality is split not only amongst different bodies, but different timelines as well (although Warhammer fantasy is apparently not set on ancient earth, as 40K would seem to stem from that time period and reality.)
Also, this is kinda of implied/confirmed in the old Ian Watson trilogy Draco, Harlequin, Chaos Child (from 2003). In one of the books the Inquisitor actually has a conversation with the Emperor, or so he thinks, but it is then revealed the Emperor is only using a small fraction of himself to speak with the inquisitor. The Emperor says something along the lines that his attentions are spread everywhere and across time as well.