What would you add to include all Legions in C:CSM?

[BrotherHoratio]

There's a lot of gnashing of teeth regarding the Chaos Space Marine codex right now: I'm focusing specifically on the grievance regarding the inability to play all 9 traitor legions out of the codex. If you could be sitting next to Phil Kelly and have him add the elements you think are necessary to properly represent every chaos Legion, which would you include? Please feel free to elaborate in the comments below, as well.

Again, this is about elements you would add to properly represent every Legion, not necessarily about messing with internal balance in the codex (Ahriman should be better, nerf Heldrakes, ect.)

[Cactus]

Personally, I think it's fine, but I would add some specific units to the mix. The Horus Heresy Betrayal book does it right.

[Arkhan Land]

I think there were some good cues in the previous codexes on some of the legions tactics and styles that weren't present in the new one that I feel like mushed a lot of chaos detail out, But thats kind of nothing new for chaos on the whole considering that for decades now the imperium has had several SM chapter codexes available (SM,DA,BA,SW,GK) with a number of direct allies (DH,IG,SoB) while CSM is left with one codex to describe twice as many legions by comparison. I think seperating out legions in smaller releases is the best solution as its a chance to really put some variety back into Chaos, different chaos factions focus on and should have bonuses in their field (Alpha legion Cultists, Iron Warriors Vehicles, Etc.) and should represent scaling towards costly units and hordes, its really a matter then of using allies well to build a decent CSM force. In Short 1) Future realeses with specialized bonuses, in certain cases maybe new minis if only Leadership (not getting hopes up) and 2) a well used allies chart.

one more thing to add that would be crazy cool would the limited ability of certain renegade chapters (not traitor legions) to be taken as limited size allied detatchments without it taking the detatchment's slot

[BrotherHoratio]

Cactus, I agree that the HH books add a lot of diversity to the Legions, which is awesome, but unfortunately lack the new toys (Heldrakes, Oblits, Demon Engines, ect.) that a "modern" chaos army would have. Of course, I have no idea what the allies rules say about allying in CSM or Demons. Anyone know if that's an option?

[Lexington]

Honestly, for whatever gripes one might have with C:CSM (and there's plenty to be had), I think they're handling the split the right way when it comes to Legions - they belong in Supplements. Legion-centric warbands are a minority, and a subset of Chaos Space Marines as a whole, while coherent, singular Chapters are how loyalist SMs operate at nearly all times.

[Power Klawz]

The CSM dex seems to be mainly representative of a "black crusade" style force where a bunch of dudes ride intergalactic hot rods out of the Eye and knock over gas stations and planetary governments on their way to the biker rally on Terra, where they'll probably get pissed and arrested.

That's kind of the standard CSM force you think of when you think of gribbly marines. Maybe some until-recently loyalist chapter that decided to stop drinking the cool-aid, but I feel those sorts of armies can be done well enough with the standard dex as well.

The "Big 4" are serviceable too. I'm sure you'll always have people that just can't live without cult terminators and other minutiae, but by and large the mono-god dedicated legions came out all right.

Its the non-god specific armies that need the most work, and I hope they'll see it in supplements sometime soon.

[LordGrise]

Okay, I'm ignorant: what the blazes is a 'Cult Terminator'? A Termie is a guy in heavier-than-usual armor, usually with a few more markings of some sort on it. What does a cult (poorly funded, even more poorly equipped, and with only a nodding acquintance with water, let alone soap) have to do with Terminators?

I do have to agree with Lexington above, though - if the differences are that big between the various Traitor Legions (I play Tau, so they all kinda look the same to me - ie, nasty gribbly targets frequently requiring combined rad/bio waste handling techniques afterwards) then supplements is the best way to go, both from the POV of the players and of GW. A C:CSM book with everything in it would be dang near as big as the Big Book. Why pay/charge a hundred bucks for one book when you can pay/charge fifty for the base C:CSM book and then forty more for each of the supplements? Players are not stuck with stuff they don't want, GW sells more stuff. Seems win/win to me.

Having said that, and admitting my opinion is perhaps moot since I don't own any, all of the following seem reasonable to me:

"Chapter Tactics" for Legions - if the Loyalists have these, why not the Traitors? Many of them are primarily differentiated fluff-wise by these.

Legion specific Warlord Traits - see above comment, although I might link these to specific characters

Legion-themed Artefacts - Anyone know where Horus's left pinky toe went? Where did the Night Lord go?

Legion specific units - folks been pleading for more of these since I don't know when

Special Characters for each legion - why this hasn't happened already, I have no idea. I knew one guy who had a converted Vampire Lord as his counts-as Konrad Curze...

Rules for missing legions only (i.e. Night Lords) - Are there any? Or are we talking about the Lost/Forgotten/Deleted/Lord Voldemort's own legions left open so there's room for everyone's homebrew Chapters?

[Charistoph]

Honestly, for whatever gripes one might have with C:CSM (and there's plenty to be had), I think they're handling the split the right way when it comes to Legions - they belong in Supplements. Legion-centric warbands are a minority, and a subset of Chaos Space Marines as a whole, while coherent, singular Chapters are how loyalist SMs operate at nearly all times.

This really is the best route for the Legions (and the all the regular SMs). Let C:CSM be about Renegades and (as PK said it) "Black Crusade" style Warbands. Let the Supplements be the defining for Legion-specific forces. That will allow for specific Legion Tactics to be used without bloating up the main codex (with Chapter Tactics being dropped in the next C:SM in favor of Supplements providing those things).


Okay, I'm ignorant: what the blazes is a 'Cult Terminator'? A Termie is a guy in heavier-than-usual armor, usually with a few more markings of some sort on it. What does a cult (poorly funded, even more poorly equipped, and with only a nodding acquintance with water, let alone soap) have to do with Terminators?

Wow, first off, the word cult does not always mean brain-washed, kool-aid-drinking, wannabe hippies. In fact, most definitions of it is entirely different. Look it up. By some definitions, every Christian and Muslim are part of cults, as much as those crazy women who try to reimagine their lives through the Twilight series.

But as for the first question, Cult Marines are those who have totally dedicated themselves to one of the four Chaos Gods, namely, Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, and Thousand Sons. Cult Terminators are taking the same USRs, gear options, etc and put them inside of Terminator Dreadnought Armour and all the fun that provides. Now imagine doing the same for Havoks, Raptors, Hellbrutes, and Bikers, and you get some idea. This isn't some fan-dex idea, either. All this was possible with the 3.5 Chaos Marine codex.

[Cadian122]

I think specific legion characters/units would be nice/legion tactics. My 2 legions are Night Lords and Iron Warriors, I'd love to see some special rule for the Iron Warriors, e.g. they get Tank Hunters/+1 on the Building Damage Chart (a la Imperial Fists), Sergeants can take Servo-Arms, and a special character Warsmith. For the Night Lords, Stealth, Night Vision, Cause Fear are all examples of special rules they could take.

[SaveModifier]

Having said that, and admitting my opinion is perhaps moot since I don't own any, all of the following seem reasonable to me:

"Chapter Tactics" for Legions - if the Loyalists have these, why not the Traitors? Many of them are primarily differentiated fluff-wise by these.


The forces in the Chaos Space Marine codex are not coherrant and well disiplined forces that work well together, they're a bunch of back stabbing traitors, some Veterans of the Long War are the original heretics, from all of the legions that covers, others are newer defectors they are united only by hatred of the Emperor, rage, the charisma of a particular leader and devotion to dark gods that use them as pawns in their own little games. The don't work together, Chapter Tactics wouldn't really work, however, legion warbands could,



Legion specific Warlord Traits - see above comment, although I might link these to specific characters


This is something we'll start seeing in supplements, so either legion or God specific suppliments will have theses if, more likely when, these get published.



Legion-themed Artefacts - Anyone know where Horus's left pinky toe went? Where did the Night Lord go?


Again, Relics are in supplements, so this is where we'll see them, Night Lords are in the main book, they're not devoted to any specific gods but the majority of Raptors and Warp Talons would have been Night Lords, the Night Lord novel series by ADB has a really interesting look at the Raptors and where their loyalties lie.



Legion specific units - folks been pleading for more of these since I don't know when


Legion Specific like Noise Marines, Bezerkers, Raptors, Rubric Marines and Plague Marines, which are all in the main codex?



Special Characters for each legion - why this hasn't happened already, I have no idea. I knew one guy who had a converted Vampire Lord as his counts-as Konrad Curze...


There are special characters in the main book, but not for each legion, same as not every Space Marine chapter has special characters in their book, fluff-wise, a Chaos Space Marine warband is all about its leaders, more than any other army possibly, and the book allows a lot of scope for creating your own warlord on the table to match the awesome conversions you can make, again, although we've yet to see it, Legion or God specific special charcters may start coming out in supplements, I think I'd prefer all special charcters to be in specific supplements myself in the future, so the main codex just has the rules for the main force and specials are in their specific force.



Rules for missing legions only (i.e. Night Lords) - Are there any? Or are we talking about the Lost/Forgotten/Deleted/Lord Voldemort's own legions left open so there's room for everyone's homebrew Chapters?


Night lords are just a chapter of psycopaths and killers, favouring fear and shock tactic, who are devoted to the chaos gods but don't use many daemons, they're scarier than daemons themselves. they have units and you can build to the fluff, lots of raptors and warp talons, not too many cultists and no daemon allies. This is a game about building armies to tell a story, you don't need a specific set of rules to do that when the book allows you to build that army.

[daboarder]

The forces in the Chaos Space Marine codex are not coherrant and well disiplined forces that work well together, they're a bunch of back stabbing traitors, some Veterans of the Long War are the original heretics, from all of the legions that covers, others are newer defectors they are united only by hatred of the Emperor, rage, the charisma of a particular leader and devotion to dark gods that use them as pawns in their own little games. The don't work together, Chapter Tactics wouldn't really work, however, legion warbands could,

pretty sure he just means the same mechanic, so that my deathguard characters don't somehow lose nurgles blessings when they ascend to leadership....or any supporting role for that matter


This is something we'll start seeing in supplements, so either legion or God specific supplements will have theses if, more likely when, these get published.

Thats IF we get supplements, I'm skeptical myself. Anything that has been suggest as to why we would definitely get supplements are the same arguments made for why we would not get a mere revision of the 4th ed book in 6th....



Again, Relics are in supplements, so this is where we'll see them, Night Lords are in the main book, they're not devoted to any specific gods but the majority of Raptors and Warp Talons would have been Night Lords, the Night Lord novel series by ADB has a really interesting look at the Raptors and where their loyalties lie.

See above I guess


Legion Specific like Noise Marines, Bezerkers, Raptors, Rubric Marines and Plague Marines, which are all in the main codex?

I believe he means more like rampager squads, and the like.


There are special characters in the main book, but not for each legion, same as not every Space Marine chapter has special characters in their book, fluff-wise, a Chaos Space Marine warband is all about its leaders, more than any other army possibly, and the book allows a lot of scope for creating your own warlord on the table to match the awesome conversions you can make, again, although we've yet to see it, Legion or God specific special charcters may start coming out in supplements, I think I'd prefer all special charcters to be in specific supplements myself in the future, so the main codex just has the rules for the main force and specials are in their specific force.

The sad thing is chaos have gotten the least new special characters in the last 2 editions, editions that were characterized by the HUGE increase in special characters in a codex. In fact chaos now has some of the fewest by a long long shot, as opposed to when we had the most.



Night lords are just a chapter of psycopaths and killers, favouring fear and shock tactic, who are devoted to the chaos gods but don't use many daemons, they're scarier than daemons themselves. they have units and you can build to the fluff, lots of raptors and warp talons, not too many cultists and no daemon allies. This is a game about building armies to tell a story, you don't need a specific set of rules to do that when the book allows you to build that army.
Actually teh IA article states that nightlords will happily use daemons and the chaos gods to achieve their goals, they just won't subject themselves to control by the powers of chaos. It also helps that they have surprisingly stable gene-seed. Furthermore unfortunately the chaos book, instead of helping you to build an army and tell a story practically prevents you from doing that through shear insane lack of options.




Words for words god.

[Learn2Eel]

Renegade (Chapter) Tactics for a start. Ultimately though, a lot of work needs to be done before us Chaos Marine players will be really satisfied, at least to a level players of other 6th Edition codices are.
Hell, I'm so tired of the whole debacle with the army that I'm seriously considering moving them on! I started Chaos for Thousand Sons primarily, who are better represented by Grey Knights and will definitely get a lot more love in the Horus Heresy Legion list.

[SaveModifier]

Actually teh IA article states that nightlords will happily use daemons and the chaos gods to achieve their goals, they just won't subject themselves to control by the powers of chaos. It also helps that they have surprisingly stable gene-seed. Furthermore unfortunately the chaos book, instead of helping you to build an army and tell a story practically prevents you from doing that through shear insane lack of options.


Depends what you mean by building a force, because you have a lot of options, you just don't have a ton of really powerful ones.

[Learn2Eel]

Depends what you mean by building a force, because you have a lot of options, you just don't have a ton of really powerful ones.

You wouldn't believe what I would pay to see Drop Pods in a Chaos Space Marine codex...

[daboarder]

Depends what you mean by building a force, because you have a lot of options, you just don't have a ton of really powerful ones.

No really we don't even have a lot of options, faiet did a really good article that broke down what chaos gets and its pretty much half of what loyalists get, and thats without going into the pages and pages of wargear we don't get.

quick example. Dark apostle, unlike a chaplain you do not get terminator, jump pack or bike options.....so he doesn't even fit with half the untis you'd want him to, why? well its either because GW was terrified of CHS....or kelly phoned it in, either way its pretty good example of why the chaos codex sucks.

[SaveModifier]

No really we don't even have a lot of options, faiet did a really good article that broke down what chaos gets and its pretty much half of what loyalists get, and thats without going into the pages and pages of wargear we don't get.

quick example. Dark apostle, unlike a chaplain you do not get terminator, jump pack or bike options.....so he doesn't even fit with half the untis you'd want him to, why? well its either because GW was terrified of CHS....or kelly phoned it in, either way its pretty good example of why the chaos codex sucks.


But a Dark Apostle isn't a Chaplain, hes not supposed to be, thematically, he's a different concept from the Chaplain, he's a preacher, disciple of the chaos gods, first and foremost. Rather than a man charged with testing and isprining the loyalties of Space Marines

Chaos Space Marines, especially if you factor in allies with Daemons, have more options than ever before, there is a lot out there to take to build the army you want to build. I can't think of a Chaos warband concept that can't be built with the current codexes.

[Kirsten]

there is a lot of great stuff chaos can get that people overlook. I faced an army the other day with cultists, thousand sons, terminators, spawn, land raider, and obliterators. lots of very different types of targets, lots of durability. all backed up by a big unit of horrors and a lord of change. too many targets coming in too fast, and masses of AP2 psychic powers.

[Sly]

"Chaos Space Marines, especially if you factor in allies with Daemons, have more options than ever before, there is a lot out there to take to build the army you want to build. I can't think of a Chaos warband concept that can't be built with the current codexes. "

There are several types of army build by main unit, leaving aside details such as different weapons, CC vs ranged, marks, etc.
Those types of army build are, generally (and some armies will mix several types):
1: Infantry
2: Mechanized
3: Bikes
4: Jump or Jet Pack
5: Drop units
6: Deep Strike (I separate this from Drop Pods since DP armies arrive with a set amount on Turn 1, while DS armies such as Nids/Daemons roll to come in on Turn 2+)
7: Infiltrate/Scout (Outflanking)

The more of those options that you have access to, the more varied builds you can make out of a Codex.

Well, Chaos gets only the basic ones: Infantry and Mechanized. While they do have Deep Strike units, they are not Scoring, and they lack Pods and Outflanking units completely. That is really weak, to force them to be the only power armor army other than the poor Sisters that have no options for their Troops to do anything other than deploy in their deployment zone, or come in from Reserves from their own table edge.

SM have options for Drop Pod armies, Infiltrate/Scout armies, Bike armies, Jump Pack armies, and Terminator armies (across the several SM Codices including DA,BA, and SW), in addition to all of the types of armies that CSM can field. Leaving aside the questions about limited wargear for specific units, when CSM has by far the most limited options in terms of what kind of armies it can field, there is reason for complaining.

[daboarder]

But a Dark Apostle isn't a Chaplain, hes not supposed to be, thematically, he's a different concept from the Chaplain, he's a preacher, disciple of the chaos gods, first and foremost. Rather than a man charged with testing and isprining the loyalties of Space Marines

Chaos Space Marines, especially if you factor in allies with Daemons, have more options than ever before, there is a lot out there to take to build the army you want to build. I can't think of a Chaos warband concept that can't be built with the current codexes.

ok part 1:You know I knew you were going to bring that up, and quite frankly just no, thats a silly argument in both background and rules a dark apostle is straight up the chaos equivalent of a chaplain...only because chaos suck it gets less options. Besides this the original point is that the dark apostle is so craptstic it doesn't even get BASIC options that almost every other character in the game (baring chaos ones) gets, better armour, bikes, and jump packs.

Secondly...including daemon....how the hell does that even count for the conversation, 1 its an entirely separate army, 2 their rules in fact make them glorified allies of convenience rather than actual battle brothers so even that just proves my point really.

you know what....

http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/why-i-like-space-marines.html

salient points

HQ Special Characters
CSM 7 SM 11 Eldar 9

HQ Units
CSM 5 SM 10 Eldar 5

Totals
CSM 37 SM 53 Eldar 40

and all thats just the units, never mind the wargear.

but its ok because of these readily used excuses.

Chaos is not MEANT to be marines.

Chaos is not MEANT to be the veteran marines from the horus heresy anymore

Chaos has been fighting for so long that it can no longer upkeep the high tech equipment, and no they are too enslaved by daemons to get daemonic gear

The incompatibility of some of the above oft use statements aside, my favourite will always be...

Chaos can't get that because you we're all just beardy iron warriors in 3.5....

seriously after this many years with the hunk of junk form 4th do people really think there are any "power gamers" left still playing chaos?

[phreakachu]

a big resounding yes. options wise CSM came up a wee bit short. all you naysayers can keep your helldrake comments to yourself: the model is crap.
and all you whiners remembering the halcyon days of the 3.5 dex? a tricked out daemon prince fell really quick to massed *lasgun* fire. keep that in mind.

[SaveModifier]

ok part 1:You know I knew you were going to bring that up, and quite frankly just no, thats a silly argument in both background and rules a dark apostle is straight up the chaos equivalent of a chaplain...only because chaos suck it gets less options. Besides this the original point is that the dark apostle is so craptstic it doesn't even get BASIC options that almost every other character in the game (baring chaos ones) gets, better armour, bikes, and jump packs.

Secondly...including daemon....how the hell does that even count for the conversation, 1 its an entirely separate army, 2 their rules in fact make them glorified allies of convenience rather than actual battle brothers so even that just proves my point really.

you know what....

http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/why-i-like-space-marines.html

salient points

HQ Special Characters
CSM 7 SM 11 Eldar 9

HQ Units
CSM 5 SM 10 Eldar 5

Totals
CSM 37 SM 53 Eldar 40

and all thats just the units, never mind the wargear.

but its ok because of these readily used excuses.

Chaos is not MEANT to be marines.

Chaos is not MEANT to be the veteran marines from the horus heresy anymore

Chaos has been fighting for so long that it can no longer upkeep the high tech equipment, and no they are too enslaved by daemons to get daemonic gear

The incompatibility of some of the above oft use statements aside, my favourite will always be...

Chaos can't get that because you we're all just beardy iron warriors in 3.5....

seriously after this many years with the hunk of junk form 4th do people really think there are any "power gamers" left still playing chaos?


So have basically the same amout of units as the Eldar, except for a few SCs, most of which for the Eldar are just glorified exarchs with no real personality?

The loyal Space Marines have always had the most options, they sell the best so its more reasonable to release more models and units for them.

Chaos do get daemonic gear, or did you forget about all of those daemonic machines in the army?

If you want to play space marines, play space marines, Chaos should be more than just space marines with spikes on. No one is getting "punished" for having a previously powerful codex! That doesn't make sense for GW

And supplements are coming to make those daemons more a part of the army than they are now. CSM isn't a book to make Legions, its for warbands!

[daboarder]

So have basically the same amout of units as the Eldar, except for a few SCs, most of which for the Eldar are just glorified exarchs with no real personality?

The loyal Space Marines have always had the most options, they sell the best so its more reasonable to release more models and units for them.

Chaos do get daemonic gear, or did you forget about all of those daemonic machines in the army?

If you want to play space marines, play space marines, Chaos should be more than just space marines with spikes on. No one is getting "punished" for having a previously powerful codex! That doesn't make sense for GW

And supplements are coming to make those daemons more a part of the army than they are now. CSM isn't a book to make Legions, its for warbands!

BOOOM! was waiting for that fallacy, fun fact, for most of late 3rd and 4th chaos outsold space marines.

Eldar have more options per unit, more unique weapons, they work, chaos doesn't

I've also never understood the argument that wanting cult armies and legion rules (the two BIGGEST defining aspects of chaos marines being the 4 cult units and the bloody horus heresy) was asking for spiky marines....I mean really have you ever actually read 3.5, better yet go read it right now. Chaos NOW is just spiky marines with less, back in 3.5 it was most definitely its own unique entity.

edit: Why are you even in this thread, I mean all your doing is reposing the same cliche ridiculous comments that always get posted, with no in depth explanation ever provided to support them.

Go on, try to explain why giving chaos rules for a cult legion warband would be "just making them spikey marines"

[Mr Mystery]

Gents, if you're going to be quoting sales figures, do link to sources, otherwise it's just entirely moot.

[daboarder]

fair call, i'll happily agree to that seeing as they aren't really relevant to this conversation.

[Deadlift]

I chose traits, my only concern would be having traits and chaos marks combined could lead to some deadly combinations. Even making the codex OP, and we couldn't have that with those chaos scum could we ;)

[daboarder]

I found out that you could vote for multiple options so I went with the top 3

[BrotherHoratio]

On the subject of special characters to include for the Legions, who would you add? Here's my list, as a springboard:

Iron Warriors: Honsou
Night Lords: Talos from the ADB novels
Word Bearers: Erebus (he's still alive right? Probably?)
Alpha Legion: ???

Thoughts?

[daboarder]

On the subject of special characters to include for the Legions, who would you add? Here's my list, as a springboard:

Iron Warriors: Honsou
Night Lords: Talos from the ADB novels
Word Bearers: Erebus (he's still alive right? Probably?)
Alpha Legion: ???

Thoughts?

They tend not to like adding BL characters to the dexes. As such I doubt we'll ever see rules for talos or honsou.

And I'm still surprised they don't have rules for erebus....thats just weird.