Which is more competitive Eldar Bike Armies or SM Bike Armies?

[Whereswaldo]

?

[StMichael]

I'd say Eldar bike armies mostly due to their stupidly good mobility. Skilled rider for White Scars is nice, but jetbikes just ride right over difficult/dangerous terrain, and 36" turbo boost for last-turn contesting/capturing of strategic points.

[Learn2Eel]

?

It is hard to say. Eldar Jetbikes aren't as tough as Space Marine Bikes, though only by a point of Toughness. They are four points cheaper per model, have half the range on their stock guns, however their basic guns are a lot better against pretty much anything that isn't a vehicle. A volley of bolters won't mow down entire squads of Terminators, a volley of shuriken catapults will. Eldar Jetbikes have increased mobility simply by being Jetbikes and thus having similar feats of ignoring terrain, plus the 2D6 assault move in the assault phase. Eldar Jetbikes can take shuriken cannons and Warlocks with a guaranteed Shrouded for 3+ moving cover as upgrades quite cheap overall, Space Marine Bikers can get grav guns, plasma guns, melta guns and so on that can counter Wave Serpents/light vehicles/heavy vehicles more effectively than shuriken cannons. They also get access to Attack Bikes.

I think if you compare them directly, the Space Marine Bikers will win out on a unit-by-unit basis, but there isn't much in it. It is because they can engage more targets and are more durable while not being too much more expensive. However, you have to consider the different uses of both units. Eldar Jetbikes are primarily used in small units as they make much more ideal harassment units than Space Marine Bikers, plus they are perfect for contesting objectives and grabbing Linebreaker. Space Marine Bikers can't do this as well, especially given they have to have a minimum five models to be a Troops choice.

You also then have to take the overall army list into account. An Eldar Jetbike army will naturally be supported by grav-tanks to fit the theme of a Saim-Han list (if that is what you are going for with the Jetbikes). Wave Serpents combined with Guardians or Dire Avengers provide Eldar with arguably the best objective-capturing unit in the game, as well as the best battle tank you can find for the points. Falcons and Fire Prisms are all decent, but Night Spinners can be downright devastating against enemies such as Tau who despise torrent flamers with monofilament. The beauty here is that all the grav-tanks are as mobile as the Jetbikes, leading to natural synergy; the Jetbikes are adept at shredding infantry, the Serpents/Fire Prisms/Falcons are ideal tank hunters of all varieties. Throw in some Wraithguard or Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents and you can deal with anything, particularly as the Serpents themselves make for very balanced anti-air.

Contrast that to the Space Marine biker army, where pretty much all of their available tanks are much slower and can't really keep up. They are also generally a lot loss threatening than grav-tanks in terms of firepower and durability. However, Space Marines do get Thunderfire Cannons, Stormtalons and so on, which really drives a wedge between the two armies.

I think it is pretty hard to say which is more competitive. You tend not to see massed Jetbike lists from Eldar players as Wave Serpents are simply too good not to have in the meta as it stands, and also because they are all Leadership 8 even with a Warlock and don't have Fearless/Stubborn/And They Shall Know No Fear, etc. They are tough with Toughness 4, 3+ armour, 5+ (3+ with Warlock) Jink, but once they suffer casualties, there is a good chance they will run straight off the board. This is why taking big units of them generally isn't ideal. I think from that viewpoint I would say that for a pure bike army, Space Marines win out overall, but it is tight. The best way for Eldar to solve the leadership issue on bikes is to either give them Farseers with supporting psychic powers or the Shard of Anaris, or to use the Avatar as a lynchpin.

[Sly]

Looking at the Bikes, the SM (White Scars) version is clearly better. If you were to just put down lots of Bikes on the table, you would really want to go with the Marines.

But the Eldar army has the Bikes in a pretty limited role: objective grabbers, with a bit of anti-infantry firepower added. It's hard to make a good army just out of that, and Eldar bike armies don't try... they have bikes, but they also have lots of points invested into other/support units.

White Scars can make an entire competitive army with just bikes... between Grav weapons and Multi-meltas they have the ability to shoot down hard targets (2+ armor, vehicles), and while overall the army is not tough enough to hit and kill infantry in CC, it makes up for it with the mobility to gang up on separated squads and kill infantry with a combination of bolters and charges. So while they can add support units (and generally should), it's not as important that they do it, and they usually spend fewer points on support and more points on bikes.

So, I guess, the real question is: are you looking for a Bike Army that is overwhelmingly bikes, or for a Bike Army that has a decent amount of bikes but also a good amount of support units to do things like kill heavy armor, engage in CC, etc.

[deinol]

Bike only Eldar can't really kill tanks, not the way marines with meltas on bikes can ride up and make them go boom. Eldar bikes just don't have the variety of loadouts, even with the (very expensive) warlock deathstar.

A mix of Bikes and Wave Serpents on the other hand...

[Dave Mcturk]

eldar with DE allies
GJB loadout and sizes to taste
Warlocks as boosts with a few left over for tankhunting
DE with 9 reavers - 3 with the anti tank drop and possibly 3 with blasters !
warp spiders as theme back up...

but in a straight CC fight the marine bikes absolutely nail GJB and DEB as the hammer of wrath attacks and the 'extra' close combat attacks with the +1T just makes no contest

but im sure both armies would look good !

[DarkLink]

As a unit within a greater, more complete, army, both are great. As a spammed unit, Guardian Jetbikes are pretty limited, but SM Bikes have the tools to make a pretty solid list.

[biffster666]

Just comparing them unit/unit I would say SM bikes definitely have more flexibility than Eldar jetbikes because of the Attack bike being able to take a multi melta and even on the regular bikes being able to take meltaguns as special weapons is very nice. Jetbikes can deal with infantry and light vehicles but will have a hard time with medium vehicles and can't scratch AV13+ unless they've got a Warlock or Farseer with them and even then it's not recommended.

[Asuryan]

warp spiders as theme back up...

but in a straight CC fight the marine bikes absolutely nail GJB and DEB as the hammer of wrath attacks and the 'extra' close combat attacks with the +1T just makes no contest


Shining spears would make a better theme back up and would also destroy a squad of marine bikes (if the spears get the charge). and with there st6 cc attacks, and the Exarch's 6 in bright lance could give a little boost to the anti tank that the GJB are missing out on.

[Da Gargoyle]

Guys, you are forgetting that Eldar HQ and Psykers can be fielded on bikes. Which means an Autarch with a fusion gun & power sword. I also field a Warlock counsel of 5 on jetbikes. T4, Sv 3+, 4+ Invun, Multiple psyker powers and singing spears for that S9 multiple attacks that can take out a land raider or wound on two on infantry. So don't think just strait guardians, think wider and more fiendish. I would say that gives the Eldar the edge. And they get all the jinks and jumps a bike rider gets.

[Tyrendian]

Guys, you are forgetting that Eldar HQ and Psykers can be fielded on bikes. Which means an Autarch with a fusion gun & power sword. I also field a Warlock counsel of 5 on jetbikes. T4, Sv 3+, 4+ Invun, Multiple psyker powers and singing spears for that S9 multiple attacks that can take out a land raider or wound on two on infantry. So don't think just strait guardians, think wider and more fiendish. I would say that gives the Eldar the edge. And they get all the jinks and jumps a bike rider gets.

it's not like Marines can't put their HQ on bikes...
They don't have the Solitarch (Autarch with Mantle on a bike for permanent 2+ rerollable cover, add weapons to taste), admittedly, but that guy has very little to do with a bike army - he's just a fun and useful choice overall!

[Kaptain Badrukk]

And let's not forget the "biker command squad". 5 Biking grav guns HO! Or 4 with FNP :)
With White Scars and Storm Shields that's T5, 3++/4+(c)/FNP ignoring terrain for movement relentless Grav guns.
Up to 8 of them.
Eep!
Not that anyone should ever do that mind you!

[Tyrendian]

And let's not forget the "biker command squad". 5 Biking grav guns HO! Or 4 with FNP :)
With White Scars and Storm Shields that's T5, 3++/4+(c)/FNP ignoring terrain for movement relentless Grav guns.
Up to 8 of them.
Eep!
Not that anyone should ever do that mind you!

yeah well that unit is a measly 250 points for those five dudes... but the look on an opponent's face would probably be worth it! :D

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Yeah, they are seriously expensive. But two squads of them led by badass characters with biker tech marines attached is funny as hell.
Point sink and stupid.
But funny.

[Dave Mcturk]

shining spears... chortle... sorry they are a fire magnet point sink ... even with 'skilled rider'... at least GJB DEB and SM are all 'point effective'

and yes they are better than the old codex... but not enough ...

would have been useful if they could use a flyby attack like the DEBs

[Da Gargoyle]

Vis a vis shining spears, I have never considered them in the past because I didn't use bikes at all until I built my Warlock Counsel. I think you may be right in regards to a normal battle where they are the only bikes about, fast and dangerous on that initial assault, especially with the lance & Star Lance. But when they are a part of a whole force mounted on bikes with a couple of Serpents carrying assault troops or Dragons, then it may be a mistake to focus on them. And at 25 points per bike that is not any more expensive than marine bikers so far as I can tell.

I guess if you are marines then you still might be concerned about them because of the Battle Focus and S6 AP3 lances. What is the armour save for marine bikers? By comparison, standard Eldar now have that blade storm, a better BS than before and I have tooled up a bike with a Shuriken Cannon and of course their battle focus. Points wise they may still be the better option from the point of view that you can buy more for the points or take a chance on a Warlock and his psyker power.

In terms of attack bikes, I would say Vypers may fit that roll. Still fragile but that can carry long range firepower that could target the bikes and still keep out of range and with Holo fields they get that 4+ save. Star Cannon seem like a decent weapon for them in a bike on bike situation and I adapted one of them to carry a Shuriken Cannon instead of the TL catapults.

[Da Gargoyle]

So here is a EJB force. Is it competitive against marines? I limited the points cost to 1500 and to only figures that I can field right now. I think I will give it a go at my next games night.

Autarch - Cethe~Arial - Banshee mask, fusion gun, Mantle and Shard of Anaris
Farseer - Kineseus - Singing Spear, Psyk powers (what I rolled in my last game), Psychic shriek, Hallucination, Perfect timing & Guide
Warlock Counsel - Coven Balefire x 5, singing spears Embold, Destruct x 2, Enhance, Protect

Howling Banshees x 9 & Exarch with Mirror Blades

Windrider Jetbikes 3 x 5 Sqds
Storm Guardians x 10 2 fusion guns

Vyper Sqd x 2 with Star cannon, Holo fields

Wave Serpents x 2 TL-EML , Suriken Cannon each & Holo Fields

Of course I realise I am telegraphing my punches here, but what would a marine force field or DE or even Orks ? (I did Orks once with Bikes & Trakks) Though I grant you, these days Ork bikes are more targets than anything else.

[biffster666]

You need to replace those Howling Banshee's ASAP Da Gargoyle...I love my Eldar, but Banshee's just suck, they've sucked a few editions now and they weren't fixed in 6th. They actually got worse. You're battling uphill to wound almost everyone, power swords are only AP3, and I've hated masks forever because they don't need help with Initiative. I was so hoping that the Banshee mask would kick down opponents WS rather than I. Is Kineseus a level 4 psyker? I also am not a fan of bike squads smaller than six and really prefer nine. Vypers are interesting now with jink, but you need to be careful they don't get assualted with the new assualting vehicles rules.

[Da Gargoyle]

You have a point with the Farseer Biff', I was using an Eldrad in the last game, hence the 4 powers, so one would have to come off. I get what you're saying with the Banshees, I had not used them because of 6Ed, but thought they might be interesting. Of course, marine bikers are T5 which makes it almost impossible for the Banshees to wound them. So may be switch them for either a smaller squad of scorpions with a claw or another squad of storm guardians with fusion guns and upgrade the two squads with power swords. The scorpions sound better I think as that claw will be like tin snips.

Vis a vis the Banshee mask, I had not really thought it through, I think I was musing on catching out those hi I leaders, see if I could not chop them down before they punched me out.

But speaking of weird kit outs, I have noticed a few other quirks in the Eldar codex. Like why the skills and options for the DA Exarch are almost exclusively CC stuff when the unit is meant to be shooty. Why don't the Dragons have access to Tank Hunters, and what does the exarch need with crushing blow. Why would DA get counter attack while the Banshees lose it. The same guy that did this also did the last Ork codex with similar results, like giving Ork Boys the option to buy Stikkbombs when their initiative is so low it would not make a difference when assaulting into cover.

[Dave Mcturk]

weirdly shining spears can now have 9 models / unit [why not 10 or 12 ?]
even though they can 'outflank' that is not as good as in 5th as close assault is no longer permitted
they need an exarch with at least hit & run . probably his jolly pointy stick as well which is a 35pts tax for a start
their weapons are stupidly short range so they cannot shoot and scoot and they have no 'grenades'
skilled rider without hit & run & grenades as a base makes them very poor close combat troops with ap 3 weapons... if the lances were AP2 when shooting that mite make more sense

marine bikes get extra St extra T extra attacks, ranged weaponry to suit taste and although the have no shoot and scoot with a few buffs they are pretty darned hard to kill without lots of AP3 weaponry [reapers ;) ]

i still think for 'point effectiveness' the DEB are the best. I6 with combat drugs gives them useful CC... they can overfly to their hearts content all game if terrain suits and they may have sh1t armour saves and sh1t morale... but their range of attack choices is much greater... the only thing they miss is hit &run...

whilst we are on bikes the jetlock seems a good buy but at 55pts a pop and NO reliable powers they are only good en masse with a buffed seer or as anti tank...
how locks can be LD 8 when they are all 'exarch' i dont get...

however ... im finding four or five with spears are very good tank hunters and can generally survive past turn 3...

[Dave Mcturk]

bit off topic. but a previous poster has put EML on his wavz... presumably for the range... so why bother with the cannon ? that like 20pts extra...

just put BL on them and get a better weapon for only 5pts ???

with holofields and the shield they should survive at 36" at least for 2 turns

i ran four into the middle of a necron army the other day and only lost two by turn 3 [admittedly he had no bugs]

[biffster666]

Yeah, when almost half the Exarch powers described on pg. 30 of the Eldar codex are Challenge specific and the rest are model specific you have to pick and choose them very carefully. I'm also bummed there is no Tank Hunter or No cover saves Exarch ability for Reapers and Dragons. Why do Shinning Spears and Windrider jetbikes have battle focus? Why can't a Spiritseer get a Jetbike? Why do Shining Spears have Heavy Aspect Armor, are they getting off their bikes to fight so they need a 3+ regardless? What possible reason would anyone have to ever field Banshee's, and they only got worse in 6th. Acrobatic just gets them in a position to die quicker. Why did they make Mandiblasters suck (IMO), when they were just fine (awesome IMO). Is a Striking Scorpion Exarch with Crushing blow, Claw, Chainsword S8 or S10, what about Karandaras with the Chainsword and Claw? It's not just the Eldar Codex either, in the new SM codex...Why is a Grav Cannon a salvo weapon? But I digress, heh heh

[deinol]

Yeah, when almost half the Exarch powers described on pg. 30 of the Eldar codex are Challenge specific and the rest are model specific you have to pick and choose them very carefully. I'm also bummed there is no Tank Hunter or No cover saves Exarch ability for Reapers and Dragons. Why do Shinning Spears and Windrider jetbikes have battle focus? Why can't a Spiritseer get a Jetbike? Why do Shining Spears have Heavy Aspect Armor, are they getting off their bikes to fight so they need a 3+ regardless? What possible reason would anyone have to ever field Banshee's, and they only got worse in 6th. Acrobatic just gets them in a position to die quicker. Why did they make Mandiblasters suck (IMO), when they were just fine (awesome IMO). Is a Striking Scorpion Exarch with Crushing blow, Claw, Chainsword S8 or S10, what about Karandaras with the Chainsword and Claw? It's not just the Eldar Codex either, in the new SM codex...Why is a Grav Cannon a salvo weapon? But I digress, heh heh

Its worse than that, crushing blow + claw = S7 Chainsword has no effect, you only get to use one weapon profile.

[biffster666]

Interesting, but where does it state that the +1 S for Crushing blow is added on after the claw x2? I would think it's at least S8. I seem to remember that Hammerhand adds the +1 before a Daemon Hammer doubles it so a GK can get a yummy S10 attack, I of course don't have my GK codex with me currently. Also not having my 40k rulebook handy, I thought you could benefit from two different melee weapons as long as one of them isn't a 'specialist' weapon? This is exactly why I'm getting an ipad for digital codex/rules /cackle!

[deinol]

Interesting, but where does it state that the +1 S for Crushing blow is added on after the claw x2? I would think it's at least S8. I seem to remember that Hammerhand adds the +1 before a Daemon Hammer doubles it so a GK can get a yummy S10 attack, I of course don't have my GK codex with me currently. Also not having my 40k rulebook handy, I thought you could benefit from two different melee weapons as long as one of them isn't a 'specialist' weapon? This is exactly why I'm getting an ipad for digital codex/rules /cackle!

I don't have the book handy (although a quick search someone says its on page 2), but its in the core book under adding multiple modifiers. You can benefit from two different weapons by getting an extra attack, but you still only use one of the weapon's stat-lines.

[biffster666]

Thanks for the scoop, I'll check that out next week about the multiple modifiers. Even though I haven't used Scorpions from the new codex, if Crushing Blow is added on after the multiplier from the claw it's definitely not as kewl. Between that and the Mandiblasters sucking now, bummer.

[DarkLink]

It's always doubled strength, then plus one. Except for Grey Knights, where it's the opposite. Cause we're cool like that.

[biffster666]

Except for Grey Knights, where it's the opposite. Cause we're cool like that.

Absolutely, the GK Hammerhand example is why I thought it was the opposite of how it actually is. That's what I'm used to. This is the first time with my Eldar that I've had access to that type of ability on a squad I'd consider using. Well, would have :D. Now the Scorpions second Serpent might become the Avengers sixth or Dragons third for that very reason.

[deinol]

Absolutely, the GK Hammerhand example is why I thought it was the opposite of how it actually is. That's what I'm used to. This is the first time with my Eldar that I've had access to that type of ability on a squad I'd consider using. Well, would have :D. Now the Scorpions second Serpent might become the Avengers sixth or Dragons third for that very reason.

Scorpions are still worth taking. A 3+ armor save unit that starts dangerously close can distract a whole lot of your enemy's fire while you move those wave serpents around. If they don't pay attention to them, they can do some serious damage. I had one squad of five survive three rounds of heavy bolter fire to storm a bastion for me.