Raven Guard Chapter Tactics as Allies

[DrBored]

So a new little rule conundrum has come up.

Let's say you have a Primary Detachment of, let's say, Iron Hands, an an Allied Detachment of Raven Guard.

Let's say you take a Raven Guard Librarian in Power Armor. The Chapter Tactic for Raven Guard says he would get the Scout special rule.

Let's then say you attach the Raven Guard Librarian to a squad of Iron Hands Tactical Marines.

1. Would the Tactical Marines gain Scout because the Librarian joined them? Or would they be denied it because they have a different Chapter Tactic?

Now let's say the Librarian joins a squad of Iron Hands Centurions.

Assuming the answer to #1 is 'The Tactical Squad gains Scout with the Librarian attached', then would the Centurions also gain Scout, or would they be denied because of the Raven Guard stipulation that units with models that have the Bulky/Very Bulky rule do not benefit from this Chapter Tactic OR would they benefit from Scout because they do not have the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and therefore the rules for the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic don't apply?

If you can take Raven Guard IC's and attach them to other things to give them Scout... Well, I'm sure we all see the benefit of Outflanking 5-6 Centurions with Grav Cannons.

[Katharon]

The Raven Guard chapter tactic rule itself says that models with the Bulky or Very Bulky characteristic do not benefit from Scout or Stealth as a result of being Raven Guard. Clearly that doesn't carry over to your 2nd question, about trying to attach such a Raven Guard to an allied Terminator or Centurion squad.

In answer to the first question: no. Each unit from each detachment has their own Chapter Tactics and just because you put a Raven Guard with an Ultramarine squad, doesn't mean that that squad stops being Ultramarines and sets aside their own Chapter Tactics in favor of the IC that joined them. Don't work that way.

[Tynskel]

Short Version:

Chapter Tactics *only* affect units from the *same* chapter tactics.

It is pretty cut n' dry. In fact, they went so far to say 'same detachment', i.e. primary to primary, secondary to secondary.

[DarkLink]

But Independent Characters can grant certain USRs to their units. If the IC has the special rule, he confers it to the unit even if they themselves don't have it. So I don't see why the OP's situation wouldn't work. Does the squad gain Scout from Chapter Tactics? No, they have their own CT, but they are attached with an IC that has Scout, and thus while that IC is attached they have Scout.

There's no rule that says the Librarian's Chapter Tactics suddenly disappears, I believe, or that his CTs cannot affect the squad he is attached to. He has Scout. Ergo, if he attaches to a unit, he confers Scout to them.

[Houghten]

What DarkLink said. The Scout USR specifies that only one model in the unit need possess it to confer it to the whole unit.

Which means you could also scout the Raven Guard's own bulky models by attaching a non-bulky IC to them.

[LordSiguron]

But Independent Characters can grant certain USRs to their units. If the IC has the special rule, he confers it to the unit even if they themselves don't have it. So I don't see why the OP's situation wouldn't work. Does the squad gain Scout from Chapter Tactics? No, they have their own CT, but they are attached with an IC that has Scout, and thus while that IC is attached they have Scout.

There's no rule that says the Librarian's Chapter Tactics suddenly disappears, I believe, or that his CTs cannot affect the squad he is attached to. He has Scout. Ergo, if he attaches to a unit, he confers Scout to them.

This begs the question of whether or not said Raven Guard character can give scout to a unit of 3 Centurions with a Land Raider Dedicated Transport and Scout the Land Raider up the field. Rules-wise, it seems legit, but I can also see the legitimacy of opposing arguments.

[Katharon]

Except what DarkLink forgets, is that this is not a model who simply has the Scout special rule attached to him. This is a model who is itself benefiting from a rule attached to it's specific Chapter Tactic. There is no cross-over, because it's a Chapter Tactic. If it weren't a Chapter Tactic, then it'd be fine -- but it's not, it is in fact a Chapter Tactic.

[AirHorse]

It doesn't matter what the source is, unless the source states that any conferred rules don't work like normal. All that chapter tactics states is the the conditions that it gives scouts to certain units, not that the scouts it gives has any restrictions different from normal.

If chapter tactics gives the librarian the scout special rule, then he has scout special rule exactly as its written in the rule book.

[Katharon]

It doesn't matter what the source is, unless the source states that any conferred rules don't work like normal. All that chapter tactics states is the the conditions that it gives scouts to certain units, not that the scouts it gives has any restrictions different from normal.

If chapter tactics gives the librarian the scout special rule, then he has scout special rule exactly as its written in the rule book.

But because it is from Chapter Tactics that he receives it, you know as well as I do that they will simply make it MORE clear that only those units from the same detachment that share the same Chapter Tactics will be allowed to benefit from the rule. It's not up for discussion. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to powergame like a c*nt and doesn't deserve to play the game.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Chapter Tactics doesn't "give" the Scout rule; rather, Scout is part of Chapter Tactics for the Raven Guard. The rule is Chapter Tactics (Raven Guard); the effect is Scout.

Which is precisely why this:

"Which means you could also scout the Raven Guard's own bulky models by attaching a non-bulky IC to them."

Isn't true, because Chapter Tactics precludes Bulky models from getting Scout.

[DrBored]

Well I'm glad this isn't as cut and dry as I thought it was. Between this and Grav weapons, there's a lot of possibility for abuse.

The Chapter Tactic for Raven Guard is worded a little vaguely in this regard. The CT gives the IC the Scout USR with the condition that they are not Bulky or Very Bulky.

But here's the other part of the question.. Let's assume that, yes, the Librarian does have Scout and he does confer it to the squad... Now, the Centurions being Bulky, would they benefit from the Scout? They don't have the same CT and therefore wouldn't be restricted by the Raven Guard Bulky Stipulation. Or rather, would they be considered part of the Librarian's 'unit' and therefore lose Scout because of the Librarian's Raven Guard Stipulation that *Units with models that have the Bulky or Very Bulky rule do not benefit*?

Now, I'm no powergamer, but it's obvious to see the problem with powergamer logic.

For about 500-600 points, you could have a unit that has 30 relentless Grav shots at 24" range outflanking on either side of the table. The Grav weapons, especially combined with all the Hurricane Bolter shots, would annihilate most troops, and against vehicles they'd be even more deadly since they'd take 1 hull point with the first 6 and 2 hull points with each subsequent shot. And it wouldn't matter if you were obscured or were on a Skyshield or had an Inv save, those would be completely ignored because Grav weapons don't roll for glance/pen.

Pretty busted.

[MajorWesJanson]

The IC would have scout. He joins a unit of centurions, they become a single unit. Chapter Tactics says it does not work on units containing bulky/very bulky, so CT means the IC would lose scout. while he is part of the unit with the centurions.

The cross-chapter should work, as the IC would be with a tactical squad, forming a unit. They are not a unit containing bulky or very bulky models, so IC keeps scout thanks to his chapter tactics. Scout USR only requires "unit containing at least one model with this special rule," so the entire unit benefits. The unit would also benefit from first turn stealth as well, as stealth is also "at least one model in the unit"

[Aegwymourn]

Why is this a "powergaming" question. You can already do the scouting crazy stuff just by taking Khan. Anyone who isn't willing to look at the rules objectively and have a grown up conversation is a whiny brat.

By having the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics the librarian gains the Scout USR. It doesn't say acts like it says "Models in this detachment have the Scout special rule". The only counter argument is the last sentence which the Major pointed out. Since it seems to be a blanket statement I would agree with his analysis that while you can cross detachment the rules, you could not effect anything that is bulky/very bulky.

[DarkLink]

Exact wording:


All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment's Chapter, provided they have the Chapter Tactics special rule.

The wording is important, because it doesn't specify that you can't benefit from another unit's Chapter Tactics. All it says is that you gain the benefits from your detachment's Chapter Tactics.

So you gain your detachment's CT. The Librarian gets Scout from the Raven Guard CT, and your, we'll say Tactical Marines gain Hit and Run. The Tactical Marines don't inherently gain Scout because they're in a different detachment from the Librarian, but I can't see anything that prevents them from indirectly benefiting via the normal IC USR transfer.


It does not say "models may only benefit from their own detachment's CTs". It just says "models gain their own detachment's CTs". That's an important difference.


However, you could read this such that it does specify that in order to benefit from Chapter Tactics, you must actually have Chapter Tactics. So the Librarian couldn't join, say, allied Guardsmen and grant them Scout, because without Chapter Tactics they can't benefit from any Chapter Tactics. Similarly, since Raven Guard Strike from the Shadows (scout) doesn't benefit Bulky or Very Bulky, you also couldn't attach the Librarian to a unit of Centurions and Scout them because they can't benefit from that particular rule.

Anyone else see anything to contradict any of that?

[DrBored]

Exact wording:



The wording is important, because it doesn't specify that you can't benefit from another unit's Chapter Tactics. All it says is that you gain the benefits from your detachment's Chapter Tactics.

So you gain your detachment's CT. The Librarian gets Scout from the Raven Guard CT, and your, we'll say Tactical Marines gain Hit and Run. The Tactical Marines don't inherently gain Scout because they're in a different detachment from the Librarian, but I can't see anything that prevents them from indirectly benefiting via the normal IC USR transfer.


It does not say "models may only benefit from their own detachment's CTs". It just says "models gain their own detachment's CTs". That's an important difference.


However, you could read this such that it does specify that in order to benefit from Chapter Tactics, you must actually have Chapter Tactics. So the Librarian couldn't join, say, allied Guardsmen and grant them Scout, because without Chapter Tactics they can't benefit from any Chapter Tactics. Similarly, since Raven Guard Strike from the Shadows (scout) doesn't benefit Bulky or Very Bulky, you also couldn't attach the Librarian to a unit of Centurions and Scout them because they can't benefit from that particular rule.

Anyone else see anything to contradict any of that?

This is pretty much how I was interpreting these rules, except that the Librarian, having the Scout USR from his Chapter Tactics, if he is attached to something else, even something like a Guard Platoon, he would grant them Scout, as long as they are not Bulky or Very Bulky. The kicker is that it just gives him scout, followed by a period, not a comma.

But the latter part is absolutely how I'd interpret it, that the blanket statement of 'Units with models that have the Bulky or Very Bulky special rule do not benefit from either rule' excludes things like Centurions or Terminators from gaining Scout.

This opens up some shenanigans, like Scouting other Battle Brothers allies, but there are limits that will have to be closely observed.

[Nabterayl]

So you gain your detachment's CT. The Librarian gets Scout from the Raven Guard CT, and your, we'll say Tactical Marines gain Hit and Run. The Tactical Marines don't inherently gain Scout because they're in a different detachment from the Librarian, but I can't see anything that prevents them from indirectly benefiting via the normal IC USR transfer.
Agreed here.


However, you could read this such that it does specify that in order to benefit from Chapter Tactics, you must actually have Chapter Tactics. So the Librarian couldn't join, say, allied Guardsmen and grant them Scout, because without Chapter Tactics they can't benefit from any Chapter Tactics.
Not sure I agree here. As you said, nothing in the codex says that models without Chapter Tactics cannot benefit from Chapter Tactics. All we know is that a model with Chapter Tactics does benefit from Chapter Tactics, and if a model does not benefit from Chapter Tactics, it does not have Chapter Tactics.

This is not to contradict the well-established rule that we only do what the rules say to do, but if we have another rule that would normally lead us to believe that units without Chapter Tactics would benefit from it (such as from normal IC USR transfer), I see nothing in the codex to prevent that.


Similarly, since Raven Guard Strike from the Shadows (scout) doesn't benefit Bulky or Very Bulky, you also couldn't attach the Librarian to a unit of Centurions and Scout them because they can't benefit from that particular rule.
This I do agree with, because Strike from the Shadows specifies that a single Bulky or Very Bulky model in a unit prevents the entire unit from benefiting from the Stealth or Scout rules.

[DarkLink]

I was mostly being devils advocate with the second part.

[Katharon]

The wording is important, because it doesn't specify that you can't benefit from another unit's Chapter Tactics. All it says is that you gain the benefits from your detachment's Chapter Tactics.

"All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment's Chapter..."

In fact it does specify that you can't benefit from another unit's Chapter Tactics. If you put two units together (IC and a Tac squad for example) but they come from different detachments, neither is going to be able to convey or give their specific Chapter Tactics to the other model(s) they joined. Ergo, you don't get any benefits from one or the other.

[Tynskel]

"All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment's Chapter..."

In fact it does specify that you can't benefit from another unit's Chapter Tactics. If you put two units together (IC and a Tac squad for example) but they come from different detachments, neither is going to be able to convey or give their specific Chapter Tactics to the other model(s) they joined. Ergo, you don't get any benefits from one or the other.

Yeah, considering the allies matrix and all the FAQs about rules not being shared, I thought the Codex: Space Marine was pretty darn clear about not sharing rules–even chapter wide USRs, because the rule comes not from the character, but from the Chapter Tactics.

[Nabterayl]

"All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment's Chapter..."
Not sure I buy that. If A then B doesn't mean if B not A.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I'm definitely not reading it like that either. That only specifies that models benefit. Nowhere does it say they can't benefit from other sources of USRs, and it certainly doesn't say that the source of said USR matters.

"benefit from the appropriate CT for their detachment's Chapter" only means that they gain their own Chapter Tactics. It doesn't say "and cannot benefit from other CTs", nor "CTs cannot transfer" and so on. The 'appropriate' simply means that the detachment's CTs is the one that the model itself gains. That means if you have a Ravenwing and Ultramarines detachments, the models themselves only directly gain their own USRs, so the appropriate CT for models in the Ravenwing detachment is the Ravenwing CT, and the same for the UMs. There that says that once the RW models have gained the RW CTs, and the UM models have gained the UM CTs, that you can't use the IC rules to transfer Scout onto a unit of UMs.



I think there are two stretches that are being made that aren't supported by rules. First, the RW model gains Scout. He now has it as part of his profile. It's not a "counts-as Scout" or anything like that. The RW model. Has. Scout.

Secondly, while a model only gains their own CT, absolutely nowhere does it say that they can't ever benefit from other CTs. There are generally two ways for a model to gain a USR. 1) it can be in their profile, as is the case with CTs, and 2) an IC can transfer certain USRs to a unit when he joins it. So, yes, a UM model can't gain Scout via the first method. But nothing interferes with the normal process involved in the second method.

[Tynskel]

I understand what you are getting at, but Raven Guard don't have scout–they have chapter tactics.
Their chapter tactics happens to be scout.

[Katharon]

Yeah, considering the allies matrix and all the FAQs about rules not being shared, I thought the Codex: Space Marine was pretty darn clear about not sharing rules–even chapter wide USRs, because the rule comes not from the character, but from the Chapter Tactics.

^This. It's clear as f**king day. But people like the rules lawyer and bend them to their favor.

[Katharon]

I understand what you are getting at, but Raven Guard don't have scout–they have chapter tactics.
Their chapter tactics happens to be scout.

And again, exactly what I've been saying.

[Nabterayl]

First, the RW model gains Scout. He now has it as part of his profile. It's not a "counts-as Scout" or anything like that. The RW model. Has. Scout.
This is the crux of it for me. I have a hard time buying a reading of "Models in this detachment have the Scout special rule" that amounts to "Models in this detachment do not actually have the Scout special rule, although they have something that is very similar."

[DarkLink]

Right, I don't see a meaningful distinction between 'they have Scout', and 'they have Chapter Tactics that gives them Scout'. Either way, the end result is that they have Scout. And ICs with Scout transfer it to units they join, and there's nothing in the ally rules, nothing in the Chapter Tactics rules, and nothing in the IC rules, and nothing anywhere else that would prevent a Ravenwing IC from giving a UM unit Scout if he joined them. I mean, that is exactly how allying in ICs with USRs works for literally every single other Battle Brothers ally combo in the entire game. I don't see this as anything even close to rules lawyering to make this work. If anything, I see trying to deny that this works as rules lawyering to nerf your opponent's army.

[Katharon]

You're cutting hairs and trying to bend the wording to your favor. Glad I will never have to play you, because I can only imagine how long a game would take considering we'd be hashing it out over rules every five minutes.

Ultimately, any FAQ on the matter will agree with what Tynskel and I have been saying. I'm prepared to put money down on that too.

[MajorWesJanson]

I understand what you are getting at, but Raven Guard don't have scout–they have chapter tactics.
Their chapter tactics happens to be scout.


^This. It's clear as f**king day. But people like the rules lawyer and bend them to their favor.

Yes, it is clear.

Raven Guard Chapter tactics:
"Models in this detachment have the scout special rule."
RG Character has scout.
RG Character joins allied unit (not in a transport) thanks to being battle brothers.
Scout USR:
"A unit containing at least one model with this special rule"
RG character has the special rule, and is part of a unit. Therefore the unit contains at least one model with the scout USR.

[DrBored]

Yes, it is clear.

Raven Guard Chapter tactics:
"Models in this detachment have the scout special rule."
RG Character has scout.
RG Character joins allied unit (not in a transport) thanks to being battle brothers.
Scout USR:
"A unit containing at least one model with this special rule"
RG character has the special rule, and is part of a unit. Therefore the unit contains at least one model with the scout USR.

This is how I'm reading it as well. There's nothing in the Allies Matrix that says that USR's that are a part of an IC's rules do not transfer to joined Battle Brother units.

Yes, ONLY Raven Guard units would benefit from the Chapter Tactics *directly*, but it works almost like a proof (remember those terrible things in math class?) that MajorWesJanson laid out quite clearly.

If anywhere in the chain there is something that breaks it, please let me know. Otherwise, I think the issue is fairly clear. The ONE stipulation is that if there is a model in the unit that has the Bulky or Very Bulky rule, that cancels out Scout and Stealth.

[DarkLink]

You're cutting hairs and trying to bend the wording to your favor.

How? The rules are pretty simple, and the way I'm advocating fits with both the wording and with literally every other example of how this sort of thing works in the game. There's nothing that changes the standard way in which this works. You claim there's something that prevents it from working, but I haven't actually seen you present your analysis in a way that can actually convince me that somewhere buried deep within the rules is some obscure grammatical quirk that makes the normal process of ICs joining allied units and transferring USRs suddenly stop working.

[Tynskel]

This is how I'm reading it as well. There's nothing in the Allies Matrix that says that USR's that are a part of an IC's rules do not transfer to joined Battle Brother units.

Yes, ONLY Raven Guard units would benefit from the Chapter Tactics *directly*, but it works almost like a proof (remember those terrible things in math class?) that MajorWesJanson laid out quite clearly.

If anywhere in the chain there is something that breaks it, please let me know. Otherwise, I think the issue is fairly clear. The ONE stipulation is that if there is a model in the unit that has the Bulky or Very Bulky rule, that cancels out Scout and Stealth.

Your logic forgot step: Chapter Tactics only apply to chapter.

[Nabterayl]

Your logic forgot step: Chapter Tactics only apply to chapter.
Where do you get that from?


All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment's Chapter, providing they have the Chapter Tactics special rule

simply does not mean


Models only benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment's Chapter if they have the Chapter Tactics special rule.

On what grounds are you reading it that way?

[DrBored]

Here's the problem. People are viewing the 'Scout' USR that RG get as a Chapter Tactic that ONLY Raven Guard can have.

Unfortunately for them, Scout is a USR that can be transferred to other units.

This means that even though, yes, only RG get Scout DIRECTLY, other units joined by a RG IC can get Scout INDIRECTLY.

[DarkLink]

Where do you get that from?

All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment's Chapter, providing they have the Chapter Tactics special rule

simply does not mean

Models only benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment's Chapter if they have the Chapter Tactics special rule.

On what grounds are you reading it that way?


Here's the problem. People are viewing the 'Scout' USR that RG get as a Chapter Tactic that ONLY Raven Guard can have.

Unfortunately for them, Scout is a USR that can be transferred to other units.

This means that even though, yes, only RG get Scout DIRECTLY, other units joined by a RG IC can get Scout INDIRECTLY.


I see absolutely nothing that justifies adding an additional restriction on top of this. That additional restriction does not normally exist in the rules, and I can't see anywhere in the CT rules that place that restriction there.

[DrBored]

I see absolutely nothing that justifies adding an additional restriction on top of this. That additional restriction does not normally exist in the rules, and I can't see anywhere in the CT rules that place that restriction there.

Just to make sure we're clear, I'm agreeing with you 100%.

[DarkLink]

Oh, yeah, we're just ganging up on Tynskel and Katharon;).

[stevenkperry]

I would argue that it does "give" them Scout. It specifically says that Models in this detachment have the "Scout" special rule. So I would say that you could do what the OP said for the Tactical Squad of Iron Hands.
However, The CT also says that models that are bulky/very bulky do not benefit from either rule.
The question for me is whether the last part of the wording would exclude any other models with bulky/very bulky, or just Raven Guard bulky/very bulky. Does that last part refer to Scout and Stealth or just the RG Chapter Tactics?

BTW, there is already discussion about that last part that some people could interpret that Raven Guard Scout Bikes might actually lose the Scout USR because they are very bulky

As a Raven Guard player, I am disappointed in how the RG CTs were written. I like the abilities, but there are too many restrictions. You could make a case for why jump pack marines might be too powerful to scout, but I didn't see what was so wrong with them getting stealth for one turn.

[DarkLink]

BTW, there is already discussion about that last part that some people could interpret that Raven Guard Scout Bikes might actually lose the Scout USR because they are very bulky

They don't gain Scout from the RG CT, sure, but they already have Scout in their profile. They have Scout, regardless of what their CTs are.

RG CT says this:

"Note that units containing either Bulky or Very Bulky models do not benefit from either rule."

The "either rule" part refers to the Scout and Stealth granted by Strike from the Shadows. If they have it independently, then they keep it, but if you join a RG CM to a unit of Centurions, they still can't scout because they have Bulky/Very Bulky models and none of them naturally have Scout.

[Nabterayl]

However, The CT also says that models that are bulky/very bulky do not benefit from either rule.
The question for me is whether the last part of the wording would exclude any other models with bulky/very bulky, or just Raven Guard bulky/very bulky. Does that last part refer to Scout and Stealth or just the RG Chapter Tactics?
Technically, it says units with models that are Bulky or Very Bulky. I do think that means any unit with a Bulky or Very Bulky model - it doesn't have to be a Raven Guard Bulky or Very Bulky model, or a Raven Guard unit.

[MajorWesJanson]

Your logic forgot step: Chapter Tactics only apply to chapter.

Raven Guard Chapter tactics:
"Models in this detachment have the scout special rule."
RG Character has scout.
RG Character joins allied unit (not in a transport) thanks to being battle brothers.
Scout USR:
"A unit containing at least one model with this special rule"
RG character has the special rule, and is part of a unit. Therefore the unit contains at least one model with the scout USR.

Raven guard tactics only apply to the RG character.
RG character joins a unit. RG character is still the only model with RG tactics, and thus scout.
Scout only requires 1 model in the unit to work. Chapter tactics is still only applying to the RG character, giving that single model the scout rule.
For the unit to not benefit from scout (or stealth), you have to prove that Chapter Tactics somehow prevents the RG character from being considered part of a unit that he joined.


Technically, it says units with models that are Bulky or Very Bulky. I do think that means any unit with a Bulky or Very Bulky model - it doesn't have to be a Raven Guard Bulky or Very Bulky model, or a Raven Guard unit.

Yep. So adding a RG character to a unit of say IH tac marines gives them scout and first turn stealth, but add a Terminator character (RG or IH in this example) and the bulky trigger goes off and the unit loses scout and stealth.

[Tynskel]

I think this application is still inconsistent.

If you were to try to apply your logic to the other chapters, they would fail the test. *only* ravenguard has a USR, but the use of the USR is simply to prevent from writing the same rules over and over (and have them change as rulebooks change).

None of the other Chapter Tactics apply to other allies. The Ravenguard Chapter Tactics is for their detachment, alone.

[Nabterayl]

the use of the USR is simply to prevent from writing the same rules over and over (and have them change as rulebooks change).
That's an assumption. It is equally possible that the use of the USR is to allow the Raven Guard to enhance the capabilities of their allies in ways that other chapters cannot.

[TimmyPowerGamer]

This whole conversation may be moot anyway. Doesn't the BRB say that allies must come from a totally different Codex anyway?

pg109 - ALLIED DETATCHMENTS
If you wish, your army can include one allied detachment
for each primary detachment in your army (normally one,
but if you're playing a larger game this might be two). As with
the primary detachment, all units in the allied detachment must
be chosen from the same codex, and this must be a different
codex to the one used for the primary detachment.

[Tynskel]

That's an assumption. It is equally possible that the use of the USR is to allow the Raven Guard to enhance the capabilities of their allies in ways that other chapters cannot.

That logic is not very smooth. The rules for space marines, by design, prevent sharing of rules. The rules state that Chapter Tactics applies to the Chapter with the Chapter Tactics.

It isn't Scout that Ravengaurd have. They have Chapter Tactics: Ravenguard, which happens to be scout.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

That logic is not very smooth. The rules for space marines, by design, prevent sharing of rules. The rules state that Chapter Tactics applies to the Chapter with the Chapter Tactics.

It isn't Scout that Ravengaurd have. They have Chapter Tactics: Ravenguard, which happens to be scout.

I'm going to weigh in here, because I'm a git.
The rule in the SM codex clearly says that the model gains Scout.
Which means he CAN bring that benefit to other units as the Scout USR says he can.

Is this what was INTENDED by the wording or the book? NO.
Is this a utter douche move by a player? YES.
Should anyone ever do this? NO.
Is this another example of how the literal wording of a rule does not reflect its spirit? YES.
Should we get cross at people for pointing out GW's mistakes? NO.
Should we all go an sit down and have some pie? Mphre-YEFF.

[Tynskel]

This whole conversation may be moot anyway. Doesn't the BRB say that allies must come from a totally different Codex anyway?

pg109 - ALLIED DETATCHMENTS
If you wish, your army can include one allied detachment
for each primary detachment in your army (normally one,
but if you're playing a larger game this might be two). As with
the primary detachment, all units in the allied detachment must
be chosen from the same codex, and this must be a different
codex to the one used for the primary detachment.

Codex Space Marines explicitly states you can take allies from a different Chapter Tactics.

[TimmyPowerGamer]

Codex Space Marines explicitly states you can take allies from a different Chapter Tactics.

Fair enough - don't have my Codex atm.

RAW, I'd say yes the USR would be conferred to the squad - simply because of the wording of the USR and nothing in the codex or BRB to say no.

RAI, I'd say no. Every Chapter has their own method of fighting hence 'Chapter Tactics:Ultramarines, Chapter Tactics:Salamanders' etc and I don't think GW meant for them to be mixed and matched (and abused) in this way.

[Nabterayl]

It isn't Scout that Ravengaurd have. They have Chapter Tactics: Ravenguard, which happens to be scout.
Just to pin you down here, you read "Models in this detachment have the Scout special rule" and conclude "Raven Guard do not have the Scout special rule." Is that an accurate restatement of your position?

[MajorWesJanson]

I think this application is still inconsistent.

If you were to try to apply your logic to the other chapters, they would fail the test. *only* ravenguard has a USR, but the use of the USR is simply to prevent from writing the same rules over and over (and have them change as rulebooks change).

None of the other Chapter Tactics apply to other allies.

Black Templars- Adamantium Will and Crusader both require one model in the unit to work
White Scars- Hit and Run requires one model in the unit


The rules state that Chapter Tactics applies to the Chapter with the Chapter Tactics.

Chapter Tactics affect all models in a detachment with the Chapter tactics rule. It applies to models.
Chapter tactics can give USRs. The model thus has both the chapter tactic rule, and the scout USR, or Hit and Run USR, or Adamantium Will USR, depending on which chapter tactics.
The equivalent would be say Zealot- another rule that grants further USRs- Does a model with Zealot only have the Zealot Rule, and not Fearless and Hatred?

[DrBored]

Black Templars- Adamantium Will and Crusader both require one model in the unit to work
White Scars- Hit and Run requires one model in the unit



Chapter Tactics affect all models in a detachment with the Chapter tactics rule. It applies to models.
Chapter tactics can give USRs. The model thus has both the chapter tactic rule, and the scout USR, or Hit and Run USR, or Adamantium Will USR, depending on which chapter tactics.
The equivalent would be say Zealot- another rule that grants further USRs- Does a model with Zealot only have the Zealot Rule, and not Fearless and Hatred?

This.

Zealot is a perfect example. Chaplains have Zealot. If the Chaplain joins a squad, does he lose Fearless and Hatred because the rule that he has is technically Zealot? No, he gains Fearless and confers it to his squad.

Similarly, if a Raven Guard Captain has the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic, which gives him Scout, then he gives that to his squad, as long as they are Battle Brothers, and as long as they are not Bulky or Very Bulky.

Saying that he doesn't is inserting rules that don't exist.

[Tynskel]

Just to pin you down here, you read "Models in this detachment have the Scout special rule" and conclude "Raven Guard do not have the Scout special rule." Is that an accurate restatement of your position?

halfway there. What I am saying is that the rule 'Chapter Tactics' is what grants the USR, not the other way around.

I am questioning the 'source' of the special rules. An ally of White Scars, Raven Guard, Black Templars, etc., does not have the same Chapter Tactics.

the chaplain example is different: The Chaplain Rules come from the model, not from the Chapter Tactics. However, there are plenty of examples in the FAQs that even doing this with a Chaplain is 'no no'.

[Nabterayl]

halfway there. What I am saying is that the rule 'Chapter Tactics' is what grants the USR, not the other way around.

I am questioning the 'source' of the special rules. An ally of White Scars, Raven Guard, Black Templars, etc., does not have the same Chapter Tactics.

the chaplain example is different: The Chaplain Rules come from the model, not from the Chapter Tactics. However, there are plenty of examples in the FAQs that even doing this with a Chaplain is 'no no'.
I understand that, but I don't see what you're pointing to that demonstrates that Raven Guard do not have the Scout special rule, other than your gestalt understanding of how the rules usually work. You're taking a general principle and saying that it applies in this specific instance, but not how you know that. Without that, what you are saying still boils down to, "When the codex says that certain models 'have the Scout special rule,' it doesn't mean that they actually have the actual Scout special rule."

[Tynskel]

not quite what I am trying to get at.

What I am saying is that Space Marines have Chapter Tactics. Chapter Tactics is supposed to only apply to models with the same Chapter Tactics. So, if you ignore, for the sake of argument, what the specifics of the individual Chapter Tactics are, the only thing that concerns the player is whether or not the IC and the squad the IC is joining share the Chapter Tactics.

What is concerning me is the source of the special rule, not the rule itself.

[Nabterayl]

I do understand that, but I think what you're doing is ignoring what the rule actually says. It is certainly true that, say, a squad of guardsmen joined by a Raven Guard IC in power armor would not gain Chapter Tactics. But that's not what we're saying. Only the Raven Guard IC has Chapter Tactics. But the text of his Chapter Tactics is, inter alia,


After both sides have deployed (includlng Infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, a unit containing at least one model with this special rule can choose to redeploy ...

Just as the Guardsmen squad could redeploy if it were joined by a battle brother IC who had Scout in his profile - even though the IC would be the only model in that unit with Scout - so too can they redeploy, and otherwise benefit from Scout, if joined by a battle brother IC who has a rule that gives that IC the Scout special rule - even though the IC is still the only model in that unit with Chapter Tactics.

It seems what you are really looking for is not who has what rule, but why a rule that purports to benefit an entire unit (even if most of the unit doesn't have the rule) does not so benefit the entire unit.

[Tynskel]

I still think the check is at the Chapter Tactics, not at the rule itself.

[DrBored]

I still think the check is at the Chapter Tactics, not at the rule itself.

I see what you're saying, I really do. I get where you're coming from, and I see where you're seeing your side of the argument.

I just can't say that I agree. I think the rules for Chapter Tactics were made in such a way as to prevent allied detachments from benefiting *directly* from the Chapter Tactics, or to make the distinction between two separate chapters in the same army.

But the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic creates a secondary, indirect effect, and that's that a model with the Scout special rule (it doesn't matter where it comes from, either as a piece of wargear, a special rule, or, in this instance, as a Chapter Tactic) confers the Scout rule to his unit.

[Tynskel]

I see what you're saying, I really do. I get where you're coming from, and I see where you're seeing your side of the argument.

I just can't say that I agree, either.

What's the point of going through all the effort of stating you cannot share rules between attachments when you can abuse that on a technicality? Ultimately, that's what this is. Chapter Tactics is 'negated' but scouts is not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM-G0bkl8MQ

[stevenkperry]

I don't see it as abuse because you still have to Ally to do it. In the previous edition, you could just pay the points for a special character and make them whatever you wanted. You just had to pick which combat tactics were dominant. Now you can mix, but you have to take an HQ and another troop. I would think that was the point of Allying. So that you could combo some things together representing each chapter leading the others in their style of warfare.
Perhaps there are some broken combos that I can't think of, but buying a Raven Guard HQ just to give an Iron Hands or Ultramarines infantry unit Stealth for One turn does not sound like abuse or breaking the system.
Neither does scouting terminators or centurions from another chapter because the White Scars can already do that.
Giving a 30 strong imperial guard mob And They Shall Know No Fear by attaching an allied Marine HQ sounds more weird to me that everything that's been talked about.
I play Raven Guard exclusively and don't plan on allying at all with other chapters. I am already down in the dumps because I modeled a sweet version of Sergeant Telion on the basis that the RG use Scouts so much that they would have similar veterans. I was really proud of how he turned out and entered him into the Golden Demon at this year's GamesDay. Now the only way I can use him is to take an Ultramarines Captain and a unit of Ultramarines Scouts. I won't be doing that as I enjoy using my RG Scouts to get stealth for the 1st turn. It is not a big loss, but it was really fun (and was previously encouraged)
At any rate, I suspect the FAQ will clarify it on the other side though.

[DarkLink]

I see what you're saying, I really do. I get where you're coming from, and I see where you're seeing your side of the argument.

I just can't say that I agree, either.

What's the point of going through all the effort of stating you cannot share rules between attachments when you can abuse that on a technicality? Ultimately, that's what this is. Chapter Tactics is 'negated' but scouts is not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM-G0bkl8MQ

You can call it abuse all you want, but we're not the ones trying to twist the wording around until it says the opposite of what it actually does.

RG gain a USR. That USR transfers to joined units. Just like every single other time an IC joins a unit. The burden of proof on why that standard default does not apply is on you, and I've yet to see you actually quote a rule that states that other chapters can't benefit from chapter tactics in the exact same way as every other unit with an attached allied character would benefit.

[daboarder]

I think the caveat that RG gain scouts unless the unit contains models that are bulky makes it far from cut and dry darklink.

I look at it like this,

The IC gains scout due to RG CT's, then it joins a unit containing "bukly" models and loses scout immediately due to RG CT's.

[Nabterayl]

What's the point of going through all the effort of stating you cannot share rules between attachments
Who said that? You've never quoted any such rule.


The IC gains scout due to RG CT's, then it joins a unit containing "bukly" models and loses scout immediately due to RG CT's.
Certainly. I think that is cut and dried. But if the unit it joined did not have any Bulky or Very Bulky models, Scout would still apply to the whole unit, just like it always does.

[daboarder]

Yeah and I'll pay that.

[DrBored]

Awesome, then besides Tynskel, it seems like we've reached a consensus.

The RG CT of Scout will transfer from IC's to joined squads that are Battle Brothers, as long as they don't have models in the unit that are bulky/very bulky.

Seems pretty straightforward. I'm calling this case closed until a FAQ comes out or someone can offer some new material to the contrary.

[Tynskel]

Alright, I went through the rules again. I thought they had alluded to, or said something to the fact that you cannot share Chapter Tactics.

I don't see that. All I see is that you can only choose one Chapter Tactics per detachment.

Without out that rule, I am talking about hot air.

[DarkLink]

Hah! Victory is ours!

Of course I'm the one who kept getting mixed up on the grav weapon rules, so I can't really talk.

[MajorWesJanson]

Wait, a rules discussion that was conducted in good faith by all sides (and relatively politely) that actually produced a consensus on the internet? Can we get this thread stickied to prove it can actually happen?

[Nabterayl]

That's why I'm on this rules forum instead of ... other ... ones.

[daboarder]

pfft wheres magpie when you need 'im!

[Tynskel]

I can be an @$$ if you want.

NO! I CANNOT LOSE!

[Katharon]

Considering all the shenaningans we can pull off because of this (what I'm calling a large gap in logic on the game testers and designers part) then I still say that they will make some sort of statement in the FAQ about it. There is however no definitive rule...yet.

[DarkLink]

I can be an @$$ if you want.

NO! I CANNOT LOSE!

Oh, yeah? Well, you're stupid.

No, you're stupid.

Nuh-huh.

Yeah-huh.

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

[DrBored]

Considering all the shenaningans we can pull off because of this (what I'm calling a large gap in logic on the game testers and designers part) then I still say that they will make some sort of statement in the FAQ about it. There is however no definitive rule...yet.

I agree. I would love a FAQ one way or the other. Ambiguity is frustrating at the best of times, and I personally like it when rules are crystal clear.

I'm rather surprised GW doesn't have at least a small team, like one or two guys, true rules lawyers, that analyze ways that rules could be misconstrued or misinterpreted, and whose job it is to simplify the language such that it can't be taken advantage of... But then, I guess that's what FAQ's are supposed to be for :P

I wonder if reading the Codexex and Rulebooks in other languages might help clear up some of this? Maybe not...

[Tynskel]

Oh, yeah? Well, you're stupid.

No, you're stupid.

Nuh-huh.

Yeah-huh.

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

uh-huh!

[Katharon]

I agree. I would love a FAQ one way or the other. Ambiguity is frustrating at the best of times, and I personally like it when rules are crystal clear.

I'm rather surprised GW doesn't have at least a small team, like one or two guys, true rules lawyers, that analyze ways that rules could be misconstrued or misinterpreted, and whose job it is to simplify the language such that it can't be taken advantage of... But then, I guess that's what FAQ's are supposed to be for :P

I wonder if reading the Codexex and Rulebooks in other languages might help clear up some of this? Maybe not...

Wanna go find out if they'll hire us?

[Tynskel]

Wanna go find out if they'll hire us?

Never.
Because we aren't that good at it, either.

[daboarder]

Jeeze bigred, why'd you have to put this on the front page, we had it nice and cozzie, now a bunch of unenlightened fools are running round in circles again.

[MisterCyto]

Just to add fuel to the fire; say I want a Deathwatch kill team allied to my army (who can be either count as Sterngaurd, Vanguard, tacts, whatever), all of whom are from different chapters. Does every model in the squad benefit from the chapter tactics of each chapter represented in the squad? Now let's imagine we have a Deathwatch Terminator (count as regular Terminator squad), one of whom is a Raven Guard..... what now?
(Just curious to see what you all think).

[Angelofblades]

@ Tynskel

I've been following your train of though here, and I just want to ask to see if I've got your understanding here.

So in the examples used for RG, RG don't actually have Stealth, they have Chapter Tactics. As it is clearly shown in the special rules listing of just about every marine unit in the army list.

Special Rules:
And The Shall Know No Fear
Chapter Tactics

Maintaining that RG don't have Stealth directly like Chaplains have Zealot directly listed in their special rules.

So sort of like if I said, "I have pockets," would be wrong because it is my pants/shots/ article of clothing that have pockets, not that I have had a haemonculous surgically graft a pocket onto my flesh somewhere.

Yet, as fas as I know, while I'm wearing pants/shorts/ article of clothing, the statement of "I have pockets," is still correct.

So would not the same deductions be true in regards to Chapter Tactics and USR's?

Raven Guard have Chapter Tactics
Raven Guard Chapter Tactics:
Models in this detatchment have the Scout special rule....

What do I say when I play RG and I scout and am questioned, "Why are you doing that?"
What would be the correct answer:

A. "Because I have scout."
B. "Because I have Chapter Tactics - which gives my units scout."
C. "Because I'm Nick Rose and I do what I want."

[Tynskel]

@ Tynskel {...}
A. "Because I have scout."
B. "Because I have Chapter Tactics - which gives my units scout."
C. "Because I'm Nick Rose and I do what I want."

It is obviously "C".

but, using the same analogy: we have different pants. Your pants don't match my pants. It is irrelevant that your pants and my pants have pockets.


However, this was all contingent on the assumption that the codex explicitly stated that chapter tactics cannot be shared within the army. Hence, the pants don't matter, all that matters is the pockets.

[Lord Krungharr]

So if the Centurions joined to the Raven Guard Librarian aren't wearing pants, they can't Scout?

[Nabterayl]

They can't Scout because they're too Bulky to benefit from the pockets in the Raven Guard librarian's pants.

[Tynskel]

They can't Scout because they're too Bulky to benefit from the pockets in the Raven Guard librarian's pants.

I say we pass a forum rule: you cannot scout unless your pants have pockets.

[Nabterayl]

Strictly speaking, you can scout if your pants don't have pockets, ordinarily speaking. Unfortunately, the librarian's pants specifically state that the centurions are too bulkular to scout unless their own pants have their own pockets, which they don't.

That's the problem with formalwear, really. You're always reliant on your date's pockets. And then your date says, "If you're going out with me wearing that, you do not get to use my pockets." And where are you then?

[Tynskel]

hahahha!