Raven Guard Chapter Tactics Questions

[DrBored]

Hey all,

I had a few questions when reading over the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics. I'm trying to run Carcharodons, which are allegedly a successor chapter of the Raven Guard, but I need some help figuring the limits of this Chapter Tactic.

So the first part says that models (that don't have Bulky or Very Bulky) have Scout, and benefit from Stealth on the first turn. Pretty solid... But don't Jump Pack Infantry count as Bulky? So Jump Infantry don't get Scout or Stealth... but that doesn't seem right, did I miss something there?

Also, would Land Raiders benefit from these rules? Alone they would, but if they have a unit embarked inside them that is Bulky or Very Bulky, or they are taken as a Dedicated Transport for Terminators, would they still benefit from these rules?

And finally, what are your guys' opinions of Assault Marines and Vanguard Vets in general? Assault Marines seem kinda meh, only able to take Flamers or Plasma Pistols, but Vanguard Vets look promising since they can take Thunderhammers and Storm Shields and Lightning Claws. How would you kit out those squads, and how would you use them in a Raven Guard army?

[Mr Mystery]

Landraiders are never bulky nor very bulky or extremely bulky. They're just Landraiders.

Jump Pack troops are indeed Bulky, and thus don't get sneakystealthsneaksneak rules, but do get arguably the best jump packs in the game, for no additional cost (use on move, and charge, and unless I'm getting confused, improved hammer of wrath).

The other question? Too subjective. Jump Pack equipped multi flamer unit has it's strong uses, but will still bounce off certain enemy element.

[DrBored]

Landraiders are never bulky nor very bulky or extremely bulky. They're just Landraiders.

Jump Pack troops are indeed Bulky, and thus don't get sneakystealthsneaksneak rules, but do get arguably the best jump packs in the game, for no additional cost (use on move, and charge, and unless I'm getting confused, improved hammer of wrath).

The other question? Too subjective. Jump Pack equipped multi flamer unit has it's strong uses, but will still bounce off certain enemy element.

Would a Land Raider taken as a Dedicated Transport for a squad of Bulky Terminators count as having 'units with the Bulky' rule and therefore wouldn't get the benefit of Scout or Stealth? That's really the kicker that I'm wondering here. If I can scout a Land Raider with assault terminators, that'd be great.

[Chris*ta]

Would a Land Raider taken as a Dedicated Transport for a squad of Bulky Terminators count as having 'units with the Bulky' rule and therefore wouldn't get the benefit of Scout or Stealth? That's really the kicker that I'm wondering here. If I can scout a Land Raider with assault terminators, that'd be great.

I'm almost certain the answer is a big no on Land Raiders getting scout and stealth, but not sure why.

Doesn't it say models with Chapter Tactics that aren't bulky etc. get ...

And re jump pack marines not getting scout and stealth, doesn't Kayvaan Shrike still give scout to the unit he's attached to?

Oh, and if you want Land Raiders with deployment advantages, go Blood Angels ...

[DrBored]

I'm almost certain the answer is a big no on Land Raiders getting scout and stealth, but not sure why.

Doesn't it say models with Chapter Tactics that aren't bulky etc. get ...

And re jump pack marines not getting scout and stealth, doesn't Kayvaan Shrike still give scout to the unit he's attached to?

Oh, and if you want Land Raiders with deployment advantages, go Blood Angels ...

Ah, you're absolutely right. Land Raiders don't have the Chapter Tactics special rules, so wouldn't benefit anyway, and Terminators are Bulky, so they wouldn't benefit either.

Jeez, Raven Guard is really looking limited. So what benefits from Scout/Stealth that Raven Guard get? Just infantry models, and not Jump Packs, Terminators, Centurions... The only things that would benefit would be Tacs, Scouts, Bikes, Veterans.. and to their appropriate Dedicated Transports. I guess it would be good to Scout Rhinos full of Tacs and benefit from better cover with Smoke Launchers provided you go first, or to have the option to outflank, but it really is feeling like they're trying to shoehorn you into taking specific things to benefit fully from these rules.. and they don't seem stellar...

Edit: Bikes can't use the Scout or Stealth rules because they are considered Very Bulky...

[mathhammer]

Hey all,
what are your guys' opinions of Assault Marines and Vanguard Vets in general? Assault Marines seem kinda meh, only able to take Flamers or Plasma Pistols, but Vanguard Vets look promising since they can take Thunderhammers and Storm Shields and Lightning Claws. How would you kit out those squads, and how would you use them in a Raven Guard army?

Outside of blood angels vanguard vets aren't worth it. I was very successful in 5th edition with vanguard vets with lightning claw/ storm shield. In 6th edition the blood angels version aren't great and the standard ones are still overpriced and compete with better choices like terminators. For a raven guard a storm raven with terminators looks tempting. Still fast, quick to the line but hits like a tank. Use scouts are marines to scout forward and pin them, FA- assault troops to roll the sides and a stormraven down the centerish.

My 2 cents. (Thanks to QE I should say my 20 cents)

[DWest]

I've been working on a Raven Guard list, trying to sort ideas for a friend who plays 'em. I've got a Vanguard squad in the list specifically to accompany Shrike in close, and here's what I'm thinking so far:
-Sergeant w/ Relic Blade & Storm Shield; he can hit hard, and/or "tank" for Shrike if needed.
-2 Plasma Pistols; for popping tough stuff and transports, since they start Infiltrated.
-1 Power Axe; for AP 2.
-2 or so mooks to eat shots.

I think if you're going to run Shrike, VG are a better escort than regular Assault Marines, but otherwise, I don't see them getting much play. Beautiful models though, I bought a box for parts. Also, with the free Stealth on turn 1, Devastators might be the way to go for artillery.

[stevenkperry]

The OP is correct, the RG CTs are extremely limited. Not necessarily underpowered, but just come with a lot of caveats. I love the new Jump pack rules to death, but they don't get any other benefit of the CT.
The bulky/very bulky excludes terminators, centurions, and all of the bikes (unfortunate that Scout bikes can't get stealth for one turn, and some people are actually saying that RG Scout Bikes lose Scout because they are very bulky).
Scouts already had Scout so the real units that benefit are Tactical, Honor Guard, Sternguard, and Devestators.

It's funny because I keep hearing all kinds of fluffy reasons why Terminators, Jump Packs and Bikes shouldn't have stealth because they are big and noisy, which is fine I guess until you consider that my Tactical Squad that just came screaming down from the blazing sky at terminal velocity in a Drop Pod that uses it's thrusters to slow it's decent as it slams into the ground and then BLOWS it's doors off with charges at the top of turn 1, sometimes within an inch of the enemy will benefit from the STEALTH special rule. But JP equipped RG marines who methodically work their way into position by walking like they do in the fluff, before turning on the JP at the last second for surprise is soooo far fetched to have Stealth :)

It just seems like they went out of their way to make sure that Terminators and Centurions couldn't Scout, but they had no problem allowing Khan and his White Scar Terminators and Centurions in Land Raiders the ability to Scout. I guess they wanted the WS to have something since their CT didn't hardly give them anything.

Oh well. There is still some fluffy fun to be had. Perhaps the RG supplement may expand on Shrike's Wing or something.