Healthcare

[DarkLink]

I found this on the internet, and found this pretty interesting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M#t=446

[daboarder]

healthcare should be public.

[gwensdad]

Totally unrelated irony-that video is by John Green. John Green is an author who is currently having one of his books turned into a movie. One of the actors in that movie is Ansel Elgort who apparently is a former Golden Deamon winner (or at least entrant-he has at least 1 model on GW's site).

(totally unrelated, but somehow swings back to 40K) (also, look up John Green's Crashcourses on World History and American History)

[eldargal]

A minor issue:

If things in America are more expensive because America is wealthier then why is everything but healthcare cheaper?:rolleyes: Given everything else he says I'm not sure it's a particularly relevant point.

The conclusion that I reach from watching that video is that the American system is just ****ed up.

[Psychosplodge]

Not watched it yet.
But if you're running healthcare in a manner that has to include profit for shareholders, surely by definition you're artificially inflating the cost?

[Wolfshade]

I do find it amusing that you have a healthcare system that is double biased. With its cost only the wealthy can afford it, also, we all know the wealthy are healthier and need less frequent access to it.

Really what needs to be done is some mass market single source supplier that can leverage economies of scale to push the price down for the end user and yet has sufficient resource to have centres of excellence for specific surgerys. Now you could average the cost of it across the entire area it serves so everyone pays a little bit regardless of how intensive they use it, in the same way people who use roads a lot don't pay more than the people you use roads a little and everyone gets the benefit. It could be set up to run not for profit, though that might be too leftist for some I understand.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

'think of a number' pricing is rampant in US healthcare provision, which is why there can be huge disparities in the prices of the same drugs and services across state borders.

Think of a number pricing is exactly what you think it is.

[Mr Mystery]

I challenge the assertion that any country is civilised when medics check your wallet, then your pulse.

NHS might be far from perfect, but it's saved my life at least four times. And I'm happy to report I am no longer burdening the NHS with my healthcare, as I get BUPA through work.

A healthy workforce is a productive work force. In the US, how many people can't work due to relatively minor ailments? For instance, someone with a dodgy hip. All they need is a hip replacement op. It's doable. It's safe. It's got a good success rate...except because it's pre-existing, your cover is astronomic, and because it limits your work potential, you can't afford the cover, or to pay for it yourself. Net result? One person, willing and otherwise able to work, prevented. And probably looked down on as a burden on society.

Seriously USA, sort yourselves out.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

You're forgetting the hospitals in poor areas with third world infant mortality rates and the fatalities caused every year by people not being able to PAY TO SURVIVE.
In a country where the right to lifers will throw dolls full of fake blood at abortion clinics no less.
America is a country of contradictions. Not all of them bad, but contradictions none the less.

[Wolfshade]

One of my favourite moments on the Obamacare discussion was when US financial newspaper Investor's Business Daily has said that if Stephen Hawking were British, he would be dead.

People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.
The original source has been "amended" to remove the fallacy that Hawking wasn't from the UK.

Hawking responded in the telegraph:

"I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS," he said. "I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived."

[Psychosplodge]

Until they use their own blood they're doing it half arsed.

[Wildeybeast]

healthcare should be public.

Works in theory. Until a recession shows up and inconsiderate people won't stop getting sick despite the fact the country clearly has no money left to treat them with.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

That isn't actually a true summary of what happened, Wildey.

[Mr Mystery]

Works in theory. Until a recession shows up and inconsiderate people won't stop getting sick despite the fact the country clearly has no money left to treat them with.

Main issue here is that politicians just can't leave public institutions alone, NHS, Schools, you name it. They're always mucking about claiming improvements, when they're just making a bigger mess, and reducing the funding available for actually making people better!

Are there some things I don't believe should be NHS? Yes. Like non-facial disfigurement cosmetic surgery, gastric bands as an alternative to you know, actually dieting and increasing exercise, and so on.

I'm also a strong advocate of those who can afford private healthcare doing so. I get BUPA through work, and as such need not burden the NHS next time I need patching up. But seeing as they've done a sterling job patching me up when I was yet to be a full Mystery (I was barely a quandary the first couple of times) I feel no need to demand a tax or NI break. Much likes approach to state education, I see my current taxation as paying for what has gone. And seeing as I earn decent money now, and look set to continue that trend, it increases the value of said education and medical treatment. Without the former, I wouldn't be employable at all. Without the latter, I (and indeed Mumsie Mystery) wouldn't be breathing at all!

[The Girl]

The conclusion that I reach from watching that video is that the American system is just ****ed up.

Yes.


Are there some things I don't believe should be NHS? Yes. Like non-facial disfigurement cosmetic surgery, gastric bands as an alternative to you know, actually dieting and increasing exercise, and so on.

The two folks I know that have a vertical sleeve gastrectomy had no other options... WLS is typically not an act of laziness, but desperation. WLS procedures and post WLS life are/is hardly easy. You have to watch your nutrition intake closer than most professional athletes do and take as many supplements as a cancer patient. And you have to deal with people making assumptions about who you are as a person because you chose to take charge of your health in a way that isn't popular. The lazy stereotype is tired, stop it.

[Nabterayl]

The two folks I know that have a vertical sleeve gastrectomy had no other options... WLS is typically not an act of laziness, but desperation. WLS procedures and post WLS life are/is hardly easy. You have to watch your nutrition intake closer than most professional athletes do and take as many supplements as a cancer patient. And you have to deal with people making assumptions about who you are as a person because you chose to take charge of your health in a way that isn't popular. The lazy stereotype is tired, stop it.
Second that. I suppose there might be some people who do it because they're lazy? But as The Girl says, the shape of your life for the next year after surgery is very disciplined; hardly the sort of thing that would appeal to the lazy. The only people I know who've had this surgery really were desperate, and although their lives improved eventually, things sucked for the year or so after the procedure.

[Deadlift]

I know of one person who has had WLS, very large lady but not lazy. I don't know her medical background but I do know she is raising 3 children, working a full time job and an active member of the PTA. As I said I don't know her medical history, but I do know since getting surgery she is half the woman she used to be and seems twice as happy. I think in this instance now that 3 kids have a healthier mum who hopefully won't die prematurely then it's money well spent. Every case of every kind should be taken on its own merits. The NHS is doing well enough wasting money on mismanagement, that's where savings should be targeted and not at the expense of the public.

[daboarder]

Works in theory. Until a recession shows up and inconsiderate people won't stop getting sick despite the fact the country clearly has no money left to treat them with.

Still working for Australia.

Not to mention the last recession shouldn't have happened, but the industry is to de-regulated and focused on instant gratification to actually build for the future these days. Don't even get me started on banks and the like.

[Rissan4ever]

The conclusion that I reach from watching that video is that the American system is just ****ed up.
Yup. Pretty much. I'm an American, and can attest to the fact that we are a mess.

I like that the video pointed out the fact that the problem is complex and will require complex solutions. The problem is that complex solutions are difficult to distill into sound bytes and 30-second political ads, so it's very tough to get politicians to actually try to put them in place.

[daboarder]

Yup. Pretty much. I'm an American, and can attest to the fact that we are a mess.

I like that the video pointed out the fact that the problem is complex and will require complex solutions. The problem is that complex solutions are difficult to distill into sound bytes and 30-second political ads, so it's very tough to get politicians to actually try to put them in place.

How about "look at Australia" see its not hard.

seriously our care is a nice happy medium between germanies unniversal and americas every man for himself.

[jgebi]

we should make a bank of the Imperium :D and just charge people 2.5% on interest. Then use all the profit to buy out GW/FW/BL and make them for the people again.

Now back on topic, I think Australia has got it right as far as health care goes but with it being sold by our new government we are screwed... But health care for everyone is not sustainable long term at lest simply it is people live to long.

[daboarder]

yeah we're about to get ****ed over chronic. There already purging their "advisors" of anyone that might offer an opinion that doesn't support their stupid *** backwards agenda.

It really is as if romney had won the american election......

EDIT: people aren't really living a lot longer (a bit longer but not a lot) the rise in life expectancy in the last 30 years or so is more to do with the dramatic decline in infant mortality.

[jgebi]

most women are expected to live to 90 and men to 80 or 70. this is for gen X and the first half of gen Y the old numbers that we know only really apply to baby boomers. and the decrease in infant mortality has just made the population rise. And you speak the truth there I say we just go and start poping skulls and stop when we have no more old ****ers in politics

[Wolfshade]

Australia's system has the issue of geography. That is to say that there is a disparity between the level and quality of care/services provided to those in rural areas and those in urban. It happens in the UK, and that is very small area compared with Australia and has much higher population densities so there must also be the problem over there.

[Psychosplodge]

Are there some things I don't believe should be NHS? Yes. Like non-facial disfigurement cosmetic surgery, gastric bands as an alternative to you know, actually dieting and increasing exercise, and so on.


Yes.



The two folks I know that have a vertical sleeve gastrectomy had no other options... WLS is typically not an act of laziness, but desperation. WLS procedures and post WLS life are/is hardly easy. You have to watch your nutrition intake closer than most professional athletes do and take as many supplements as a cancer patient. And you have to deal with people making assumptions about who you are as a person because you chose to take charge of your health in a way that isn't popular. The lazy stereotype is tired, stop it.


Second that. I suppose there might be some people who do it because they're lazy? But as The Girl says, the shape of your life for the next year after surgery is very disciplined; hardly the sort of thing that would appeal to the lazy. The only people I know who've had this surgery really were desperate, and although their lives improved eventually, things sucked for the year or so after the procedure.


I would think due to the nature of the health systems, mystery's scenario is far more likely to occur here than in the US.


most women are expected to live to 90 and men to 80 or 70. this is for gen X and the first half of gen Y the old numbers that we know only really apply to baby boomers. and the decrease in infant mortality has just made the population rise. And you speak the truth there I say we just go and start poping skulls and stop when we have no more old ****ers in politics

But hasn't it been suggested that generation Z is the first that will have a shorter life expectancy than their parents?

[Wolfshade]

But hasn't it been suggested that generation Z is the first that will have a shorter life expectancy than their parents?

Yes.

[Mr Mystery]

Good! Sorry to sound harsh, but the current generation don't impress me at all.

They're the product of the greedy 80's, and the 'me me me and f*** you' philosophy that engendered.

Look at Hipsters. Look at Reality TV. Look at the drivel they listen to.

That's a generation we really shouldn't want to repeat.

[Psychosplodge]

*clone*

[Psychosplodge]

Good! Sorry to sound harsh, but the current generation don't impress me at all.

They're the product of the greedy 80's, and the 'me me me and f*** you' philosophy that engendered.

Look at Hipsters. Look at Reality TV. Look at the drivel they listen to.

That's a generation we really shouldn't want to repeat.

**** you :p

damn made your point :rolleyes:

[eldargal]

Good! Sorry to sound harsh, but the current generation don't impress me at all.

They're the product of the greedy 80's, and the 'me me me and f*** you' philosophy that engendered.

Look at Hipsters. Look at Reality TV. Look at the drivel they listen to.

That's a generation we really shouldn't want to repeat.

Every generation thinks that about the next generation though.

[Psychosplodge]

Every generation thinks that about the next generation though.

You say that.
But while me and my then friends hung around in the same spots the youth of today do, we never felt the urge to smash it up...

[Mr Mystery]

Not to this degree.

I work with them these days. I have genuinely never met such a bunch of indolent, self absorbed individuals. Their parent's still call in sick for them. Any criticism is either met with a self righteous attitude or floods of tears, no matter how constructive you make it.

It's a weak generation. Absolutely no spine, no guts, and of precious little value to society.

[eldargal]

I blame Lad culture.:p

[Psychosplodge]

Their parent's still call in sick for them.

Be fair, if you still live at home, it's only the equivalent of your partner calling in for you.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Not to this degree.

I work with them these days. I have genuinely never met such a bunch of indolent, self absorbed individuals. Their parent's still call in sick for them. Any criticism is either met with a self righteous attitude or floods of tears, no matter how constructive you make it.

It's a weak generation. Absolutely no spine, no guts, and of precious little value to society.

How old are you Mystery? I'm not 30 yet and do not observe this in either my generation or the early 20s folks i know. Don't spend much time with teenagers mind you, they just remind me that i'm not part of the "youth of today" anymore.
I don't remember committing vandalism as a youth, graffiti in skate parks and the odd theft of a sign while drunk aside.
I do remember a lot of highly offensive punk music (still listen to that) and gothic clothing (none of that left).

[Mr Mystery]

Be fair, if you still live at home, it's only the equivalent of your partner calling in for you.

Nope. Your job, your responsibility.

Me, I'm 33.

[Psychosplodge]

Nope. Your job, your responsibility.


I disagree, but then again maybe that's because by the time I phone in sick I'm not really fit to use a phone. Maybe the southern work ethic is different... :rolleyes:

[Kaptain Badrukk]

OK, so only a couple of years in it and I don't have the bitterness. Will this happen to me after I turn 30?

[Psychosplodge]

Well I've been bitter since 21/22 and from the sounds of it I'm at same age as you...

[Deadlift]

True bitterness is only achieved though marriage.

[eldargal]

Unless you have separate bedrooms and bathrooms.

[Psychosplodge]

True bitterness is only achieved though marriage.

HA. Even more reason not to. If I was any more misanthropic I'd struggle to get out of bed...

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Or lemons, you can get bitterness out of lemons.

[Mr Mystery]

I disagree, but then again maybe that's because by the time I phone in sick I'm not really fit to use a phone. Maybe the southern work ethic is different... :rolleyes:

I live on my todd, so has to be me. Plus, I rarely get ill. Occasional migraine is about it.

But they're soft, the whole generation, I swear it.

[Rissan4ever]

How about "look at Australia" see its not hard.

seriously our care is a nice happy medium between germanies unniversal and americas every man for himself.

I hope we get that eventually. Compromise is supposed to be what the American governmental system is based on. But our Congress is currently controlled by people who are so opposed to the President that they're willing to risk defaulting on all our government's loans just so they can stop his healthcare plan. It's endlessly frustrating.

[DarkLink]

The majority of Americans are opposed to Obamacare, mainly because no one knows WTF it actually is or does, other than that it'll probably cost a lot of money. But I'm sure the attempts to stop it have absolutely nothing to do with that:rolleyes:.