Space Marine "count as" question.

[dirkspair]

Got a question here, folks. I have a sizable BA army that I am expanding on and wanted to bring some stuff from the new Space Marine dex into the mix. Namely Tigurius, Telion as leader of the scout squad, a thunderfire cannon and maybe a storm talon in the future.

Of course I am going to paint them up in BA colors and when i use them as an allied detachment then they all will have the UM chapter tactics. Tigurius' special reserve ability would of course only apply to units from that detachment.

So am I good to go with that? I keep reading that people would like to add them but don't want to have smurfs running around in their army etc.

It seems I am missing something here....

[40kGamer]

I keep reading that people would like to add them but don't want to have smurfs running around in their army etc.

It seems I am missing something here....

The new marine codex limits traits and characters to their respective chapters... a paint scheme extension of WYSIWYG.

[Nabterayl]

Got a question here, folks. I have a sizable BA army that I am expanding on and wanted to bring some stuff from the new Space Marine dex into the mix. Namely Tigurius, Telion as leader of the scout squad, a thunderfire cannon and maybe a storm talon in the future.

Of course I am going to paint them up in BA colors and when i use them as an allied detachment then they all will have the UM chapter tactics. Tigurius' special reserve ability would of course only apply to units from that detachment.

So am I good to go with that? I keep reading that people would like to add them but don't want to have smurfs running around in their army etc.

It seems I am missing something here....
You're as good with it as your opponents are. Personally, I'd be fine with it, but I'm not very likely to be your opponent :p The rules would require Tigurius and Telion to be in a detachment of Ultramarines, as you said, but nothing in any of the rules say that your Ultramarines can't be painted like Blood Angels. That's just a convention that some players have.

[dirkspair]

so no Tigurius or Calgar for the Aurora chapter? No Pedro as warlord and Lysander as captain of the 1st crimson fists company?

Sounds like a bunch of BS to me and hurts GW more then anyone else....

[DarkLink]

Only if they either use the appropriate chapter tactic, or are part of an allied detachment. So no vulkan and calgar and kantor with allied Tau

[Nabterayl]

so no Tigurius or Calgar for the Aurora chapter? No Pedro as warlord and Lysander as captain of the 1st crimson fists company?

Sounds like a bunch of BS to me and hurts GW more then anyone else....
Both of those are actually fine. In terms of rules, the Aurora Chapter are still Ultramarines, and the Crimson Fists are still Imperial Fists.

What the "chapter restrictions" really boil down to is that a certain set of chapter tactics unlocks a certain set of special characters, and closes off others. As far as the rules are concerned, you can model your miniatures like Iron Hands, paint them like White Scars, and refer to them Ultramarines. You can model, paint, and refer to your miniatures however you like, as far as the book is concerned (your opponents might get a bit peeved depending on how extreme you want to get, of course). What you can't do is take the Iron Hands chapter tactics rule and Kor'sarro Khan.

[DarkLink]

You must pick one Chapter Tactics per detachment. If you pick, say, Ultramarines, that detachment may only include Ultramarines special characters. You can paint those characters whatever color you want, but that detachment can't include a non-UM special character.

[dirkspair]

ok, so i am good, all my allies are UMs, just painted to blend in with the rest of the army...

[Archon Charybdis]

ok, so i am good, all my allies are UMs, just painted to blend in with the rest of the army...

Yes, you just couldn't take, say, Lysander and Telion. Also, don't forget that even Battle Brothers can't share each others transports.

[Tynskel]

Yes, you just couldn't take, say, Lysander and Telion. Also, don't forget that even Battle Brothers can't share each others transports.

But they can sure teleport together!

[Siris Le Osiris]

ok, so i am good, all my allies are UMs, just painted to blend in with the rest of the army...

You probably want some way to differentiate them from your BAs or it would be annoying to play against you not being able to tell which unit was which force.

[dirkspair]

what difference would it make if i had a libby that was Tigurius, a unit of scouts and a thunderfire cannon? i would see how it would make a difference if i had other scout units but since i dont i do not see the need. they are battle brothers so Tiggy can join any unit and using the chapter tactics should not pose a big problem since those units are quite limited in using them.

[Nabterayl]

I've never really understood "I can't tell what's what" complaints. I've never had a problem with keeping half a dozen or so instances of my opponent saying, "This model is actually something else" in my head. Maybe other people have different experiences, but ... well, that's the point. You know who you're likely to play against. You know what the rest of your list looks like. You know how annoying it is actually likely to be.

[dirkspair]

normally i am a big advocate of WYSIWYG and if this could cause any confusion, then i would certainly do something about it. i just do not see how it would be a difference if a unit of scouts is from the BA or UM. Orion (BA Telion) is in the unit, clearly visible but they are a scoring unit no matter what. a TF cannon is bad news no matter how it is painted and once Alfonso (BA Tigurius) opens his bag of tricks opponents will want him dead no matter what color he is :)

[Siris Le Osiris]

Well something as simple as giving them a slightly different pattern or a different coloured shoulder-pad would let people know without having to ask or have to remember.
Not such a big issues with scouts if they are only in your allies but if you have UM tacs and BA tacs or UM scouts and BA scouts standing by each other whilst looking identical it could be annoying to have to ask which is which again and again as they move about.

[SaveModifier]

ok, so i am good, all my allies are UMs, just painted to blend in with the rest of the army...


Some opponents may have an issue with this, understandibly, because you might "accidently" mix up which tactical squad was in which detachment, for example, to benefit from their Chapter Tactics.

Plus, you know, its beardy as **** and you should be embarrased about it.

[Anggul]

It means those 'Blood Angels' don't have The Red Thirst and such though. I just think this sort of thing goes against the point of even having a named force. Surely you're playing Blood Angels because you like Blood Angels? Why would you want to have a special character from another chapter and paint him as one of yours? None of the Blood Angels psykers are like Tigurius, and they already have a Chief Librarian, Mephiston. It wouldn't make sense to have a Blood Angel counts-as Tigurius because they don't have a Tigurius equivalent. Mephiston is as powerful, but is far more focussed on destructive force.

I don't see the point in playing a specific faction if you're going to do things which go against that faction's fluff. By all means, make your own chapter whose Chief Librarian is like Tigurius, but the Blood Angels have no such person. Of course you don't have to listen to me to form your army, it's your choice, but that's my view on the subject. I wouldn't take a lot of Guardians and Wraiths in my Biel-Tan army because they wouldn't have many due to their many Aspect Warriors. Nothing is stopping me, just like nothing is stopping you from allying Ultramarines and saying they're Blood Angels, but it's a personal choice because I chose that faction because I like them.

[Mr Mystery]

ok, so i am good, all my allies are UMs, just painted to blend in with the rest of the army...

And do make it clear to your opponent what's what! Else he might just see Tigurius as a Blood Angels Librarian, and then get an unpleasant surprise!

Golden rule of 'counts as' is clarity.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

It means those 'Blood Angels' don't have The Red Thirst and such though. I just think this sort of thing goes against the point of even having a named force. Surely you're playing Blood Angels because you like Blood Angels? Why would you want to have a special character from another chapter and paint him as one of yours? None of the Blood Angels psykers are like Tigurius, and they already have a Chief Librarian, Mephiston. It wouldn't make sense to have a Blood Angel counts-as Tigurius because they don't have a Tigurius equivalent. Mephiston is as powerful, but is far more focussed on destructive force.

I don't see the point in playing a specific faction if you're going to do things which go against that faction's fluff. By all means, make your own chapter whose Chief Librarian is like Tigurius, but the Blood Angels have no such person. Of course you don't have to listen to me to form your army, it's your choice, but that's my view on the subject. I wouldn't take a lot of Guardians and Wraiths in my Biel-Tan army because they wouldn't have many due to their many Aspect Warriors. Nothing is stopping me, just like nothing is stopping you from allying Ultramarines and saying they're Blood Angels, but it's a personal choice because I chose that faction because I like them.

You make a valid point, but what if he has a Blood Angels successor chapter who's librarian is like Tigurius? I personally think that's fine, as long as it's made crystal clear who and what he is at the start of the game of course.

[dirkspair]

I am mainly concerned about the legality and that issue is clear now. As for Tiggy, the BA are so bada$$ that their lowly. Lexicaniums are equivalent to other chapters chief librarians :)

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Well when you've fallen to chaos you tend to get all the good powers. :eek:

[dirkspair]

Unless you are a chaos sorcerer of course :)

[Tynskel]

I've never really understood "I can't tell what's what" complaints. I've never had a problem with keeping half a dozen or so instances of my opponent saying, "This model is actually something else" in my head. Maybe other people have different experiences, but ... well, that's the point. You know who you're likely to play against. You know what the rest of your list looks like. You know how annoying it is actually likely to be.

Some people do not test their memory on a regular basis–unlike you or I–and, as a result, do not have good short term memories.

[Demonus]

Well something as simple as giving them a slightly different pattern or a different coloured shoulder-pad would let people know without having to ask or have to remember.
Not such a big issues with scouts if they are only in your allies but if you have UM tacs and BA tacs or UM scouts and BA scouts standing by each other whilst looking identical it could be annoying to have to ask which is which again and again as they move about.

This is what Id do, Put a special paint on one of the shoulders/helms/boots to mark them as different.

I dont use a lot of combi weapons for my Wolf Guard, I just have some dudes with the bolter tips painted red to discern them.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I'd recommend using company marking to differentiate the "Ultramarines" from the Blood Angels. You can work it into your fluff, too! The vanilla Blood Angels company is commanded and trained by a very traditional Blood Angels Captain, while the "Ultramarines" company is commanded and trained by a Captain who very strongly believes in the importance of the Codex Astartes.

[Tynskel]

or, you could just have them be part of the same company. Sgt., especially Blood Angels, are well known for being very independent in their execution of the battle plans.

[Lord Krungharr]

Unless you are a chaos sorcerer of course :)

Awwww, that's not completely true...those Tzeentchy CSM powers are pretty darn good! How else could I hope to turn my own Bloodthirster into a Spawn?