Anyone else dislike what has been done with the BT?

[Renegade]

From a codex that had plenty of options, despite being over-costed, the BT have been hamfistedly rolled into the C:SM.

GW could have done far better, even a supplement would have been better.

Where is the holy artifices? What happened to the stash of holy hand grenades and lance turning oils? where have all the cenobite servators gone? What happened to the Castellan and Reculisiarch?

The changes to the fluff are awful, they are there to justify adding a BT army to whatever other colour is being collected.

Needless to say, I don't dig the new S:SM and I won't be buying any new BT.

[YorkNecromancer]

Disagree entirely. BT were always a weird one, as they never really had anything to distinguish them from regular marines other than their Crusader squads... which are in the new codex. And the other things you mention are in the marine codex; you just change the names (so a Reclusiarch is a Chaplain - which is true for all chapters, not just BT - a Castellan is a Captain, etc...) and I think you'll find that Grimaldus HAS Cenobyte servitors! Check his listing!

As for changes to the fluff, I didn't spot any. The Bt were always just the most explicit version of the Space Marines' whole "Knights IN SPACE" shtick, and that hasn't changed.

To be honest, I've never really understood why they leave Blood Angels and Dark Angels and Space Wolves out of the main Marine code...

Oh wait, money.

It's money. The cash cow must be milked, after all.

Anyway, BT really had nothing beyond a few little things left to distinguish themselves from other marines apart from the things in the codex that were included! (Because really, are Sword Brethren that different to Honour Guard or Vanguard Veterans - who can be infinitely customised with their equipment in the same way?)

[Renegade]

BT had both Chaplains and Reclusiarch, and both could take Cenobite servators.

Marshals have Captain stats, the Castellan is not included and not replicable.

The changes to the background are glaringly obvious if you paid any attention to the background in the previous codex. What you are taking about is theme, which has also changed in all but the most obvious.

[Tyrendian]

yeah I know what you mean... just had my friend who plays BT rant on for 10min about the fluff changes... some do feel like they had to shoehorn BT into compatibility (like the "we don't dislike psykers in general, and hey if we get our libbies back one day we'll throw a party" thing - just to allow them to ally with a chapter using Librarians...)
the rules changes I don't think are bad at all tbh - BT finally lost what they only kept because their 'dex was so darn old, like Blessed Hull - if I'm not completely mistaken regular Marines had that too once... good riddance to that I say, and to the clunky and weird Vows as well, and to the two levels of HQ choices... and who's to say you won't get a supplement at a later date?

[Popsical]

Is your glass half empty or half full?
BT lost a couple of units and gained lots of new units.
Dont pine for the old which is gone, enjoy the new toys youve got.
Then again you can join the chaos Maureen players and spend the next years whining endlessly to no real benefit.
Chin up buddy.

[Katharon]

Only fluff change I've spotted (in their chapter section, I haven't had time to read the personal histories of Grimaldus & Co.) so far is that they don't mention the wide number of crusading fleets the Black Templar have. It seems like they are trying to diminish them -- instead of the old fluff where you have upwards of 7,000 BTs running amok within the Imperium.

[desert_hack]

If we're talking a straight comparison between the old book and the new book, then yes, they have more generic options now.

What does bother me is that GW missed the opportunity to expand upon the faction. They could have been so much more than what they have always been - generic marines with close combat weapons in big squads.

I always imagined that a future codex would be a complete overhaul, with tonnes of new characterful units like penitent cenobite servitor close combat squad, a mini dreadknight walker the same size as a killakan, human aspirant/squire hordes, heck even cavalry. They could have been fleshed out into something very medieval, very grimdark, and very unique.

What galls me is that it will never be the case, at least, not for the foreseeable. That really smacks of a lack of imagination.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

They could have been so much more than what they have always been - generic marines with close combat weapons in big squads.

There's a reason they have always been that thing. That's what they are. When it comes down to it, they just aren't that different. I remember when the Black Templars were a slight variant which came in Codex: Armageddon. You've got a better deal now. And you've had a better deal than the Salamanders had for all those years. And they're even a First Founding!

[Aegwymourn]

Having played Black Templars since they were a supplement in codex: Armageddon I always smirk a bit when people mention that they don't have enough to warrant their own Codex.

You do realize that the vast majority of things that used to make them unique has been put into the regular/alternate marine codecii right? LRC used to be BT only, then were only 1 per other army, now they are just another variant anyone can take. They had the first test run with additional gear on Assault squads by having storm shields on them (a prelude to vanguard veterans, something everyone else has again). Crusader squads has remained more or less the same over time, but that isn't much different than BA getting assault squads as troops. The fact that BT characters had a way to ignore instant death from double str (the way you were going to die in CC with the big nasties) is now again just another wargear upgrade (albeit better now that it comes with a 3+ invul and its eternal warrior).

Remember when Space Wolves were just basically grey hunters and blood claws as different units? Or when BA were just fast vehicles and the Baal Pred? Sure there were a couple of extra special rules and whatnot, but same thing with vows and Righteous Zeal for BT. Really the only Power Armor faction you could argue having their own codex is Grey Knights, and that is because it also includes all the inquisition forces, nor do they follow the codex organization.

Its not that BT doesn't have enough to differentiate them, it is that GW does not want to another separate Space marine faction. Do I like the changes that have happened? Not really. Do I understand why they did it? Sure.

[Scion_of_Terra]

I'd be willing to bet that BT will be getting a supplemental codex in a few months, where they get their old wargear and beefed-up chaplains and the like. Remember, they just came out with the new SM codex. Give it a few months first.

[Renegade]

Is your glass half empty or half full?
BT lost a couple of units and gained lots of new units.
Dont pine for the old which is gone, enjoy the new toys youve got.
Then again you can join the chaos Maureen players and spend the next years whining endlessly to no real benefit.
Chin up buddy.

It is not just the few units, it is the armoury and background.

Having started W40K with a Lost and the Damned chaos list, I fully understand and sympathise with those " chaos Maureen players and spend the next years whining endlessly to no real benefit."

[Cadian122]

If you look at the SM codex that was released just before the BT codex, they are both very similar, 2 levels of Captain (Captain/Master v. Castellan/Marshal - the new Captain is better than the Master/Marshal), Chaplain (both had a Reclusiarch and a Master of Sanctity), (Librarian in the SM one), both could get Power Armoured and Terminator Armoured Command Squads. The Sword Brethren were very similar to Veterans (read: exactly the same, just 1p more and with the BT special rules), Termies/Dreadnoughts/Techmarines were all the same.

The Troops unit (Crusader squad v. Tactical Marines and scouts) has pretty much stayed the same, except BT get the option of taking Tac Squads and Scout squads if the player wishes.

The only differences with the Assault Squads was the fact the BT lacked a Sergeant Model, and could take Storm Shields v. the C:SM units being able to remove Jump Packs (somewhat redundant with the BT's and their Crusader Squads). Black Templars can take Vanguard Vets and still get a unit of Assault Marines with Storm Shields (and the options of awesome CCW combos)

there was no difference in Land Speeders and Attack Bikes, and the only difference in bikes (apart from the lack of Sergeant) was the ability for the BT players to take 3 power swords in the unit.

The Heavy Supports were the same, except the BT couldn't get Devastator Squads or Whirlwinds. They can now.

Back to Characters for a minute,
I imagine they made the Cenobyte Servitors Grimaldus-only to simplify the codex, so there isn't just a BT only upgrade on a regular unit, and probably to encourage BT players to take Grimaldus, and I'm a huge fan of taking Special Characters to give an army more flavour.

You can still take a Castellan and/or a Marshal (i.e. a Captain and/or a Chapter Master), and both got better, so surely that can't be a bad thing.

you lost 2 levels of Chaplain and the option for Terminator Command Squads, well, guess what? So did the SM players when they got their previous Codex.

I can understand being a bit miffed at losing the Vows and some choices of Wargear, but that always happens. I wasn't too happy that I lost my Doctrines with the new guard codex, but the new book makes up for that. BT get all of the awesome new units in the SM codex, not to mention the really awesome new Relics, which makes them out to be a better army than before, and if you want to take a Chaplain, Marshal, and an Emperors Champion in the same army, play 2,000 points and take 2 Force Org Charts, it's what I do when I run out of Heavy Support Slots with my Imperial Guard.

[Mr.Pickelz]

I miss having a Leman Russ tank with my Space Wolves, even if it was an Exterminator variant (Autocannon turret).
That said though, the whole BT hate psykers outside the inquisition thing was a notable difference from the usual marines. A Chapter that relied on pure physical prowess and not psychic buffers. (aka Grey Knights, Space Wolves, etc...) is cool, however getting rolled into C:SM just means that now BT's are easier to update/upgrade. And now you/GW won't have another codex issue like Dark Eldar, where the war-gear is made useless, or completely overpowered by interacting with newer Big Rule Book mechanics. Not to mention the said book falling out of the Theme of the current Edition.

[MajorWesJanson]

From a codex that had plenty of options, despite being over-costed, the BT have been hamfistedly rolled into the C:SM.

GW could have done far better, even a supplement would have been better.

Where is the holy artifices? What happened to the stash of holy hand grenades and lance turning oils? where have all the cenobite servators gone? What happened to the Castellan and Reculisiarch?

The changes to the fluff are awful, they are there to justify adding a BT army to whatever other colour is being collected.

Needless to say, I don't dig the new S:SM and I won't be buying any new BT.

Nothing is stopping GW from doing a BT supplement and adding in some of those missing things. Holy Hand Grenade seems a perfect fit for a BT relic wargear list, as does Blessed hull. Cenobytes are attached to Grimaldus now. Reclusiarch is missing, true. Castellan (and Marshal) were just renamed Captains and Chapter Masters in the old book. The only difference was that the BT ones had a built in 1 point crusader seal.

Would you rather still not have a codex? Or get a WDex like Sisters?

[pgarfunkle]

Yeah I would expect that there will be a lot of supplemental codex releases for Space Marines which will flesh out the chapters in the main codex.

[nathaneal246]

I agree with the statements that it is still early days yet, the new SM codex has just come out there is lots of time for a potential BT supplement to be released that will have all the fluff we know and love about the BT!

I for one am keeping an open mind, Ive put my BT army on hold to see what happens!

[Renegade]

Would you rather still not have a codex? Or get a WDex like Sisters?

Wait and get something that wasn't a shoehorn job? Yes I'd take that, did it throughout 5th.

Get a WD job like BA had? Don't see the problem with that either.

I could even supplement being a supplement only army, which would have kept all the options and left more time for someone who knew the background to write it and take it forward.

I could have waited, many have waited longer than I, and still stuck with the army. What has been done is a hatchet job, both in terms of the fluff and in options.

[daboarder]

you do know that at the end of the day all BT's lost were

vows (a relic of the 4th ed design your own list phase like chaos 3.5 and SM traits, Tyranid hive fleets and the like)

some wargear (hey look everyone lost that going from 4th too)

marine options from 2 editions ago (hey look the marines lost those options when they got a 5th ed dex too.....)

see the trend here, everything that made BT unique is in the SM codex, and it wasnt a lot either.

[Learn2Eel]

you do know that at the end of the day all BT's lost were

vows (a relic of the 4th ed design your own list phase like chaos 3.5 and SM traits, Tyranid hive fleets and the like)

some wargear (hey look everyone lost that going from 4th too)

marine options from 2 editions ago (hey look the marines lost those options when they got a 5th ed dex too.....)

see the trend here, everything that made BT unique is in the SM codex, and it wasnt a lot either.

It is especially funny given that Black Templars did get representation of all of that in the book; two of the vows and the only "move towards the nearest foe" are represented with Adamantium Will, Crusader and the challenge buffs for characters; they get the relic items and all of the units they were missing out on, and; the new units generic Marines themselves got.

I can understand the Black Templar frustration from a fluff perspective, but not so much from a hobby or gaming perspective.

[GrauGeist]

The BT were rolled into C:SM so that a Supplement can be added later.

It's no different from how the core of Iyanden is in C:Eldar to support the Iyanden supplement.

Just wait and see. What was a few pages in C:Armageddon will be expanded out into a nice, $50 supplement for you.

[GrauGeist]

I wasn't too happy that I lost my Doctrines with the new guard codex, but the new book makes up for that.

I want Armored Company and/or Cameoline infantry, too. Oh, well.

[Denzark]

I think BT got lucky... Better here than a WD codex.

[Anggul]

They gained much and lost pretty much nothing. There's nothing to complain about, it wasn't hamfisted.

[Cadian122]

I want Armored Company and/or Cameoline infantry, too. Oh, well.

You still can do Armoured Company (all-russes) thanks to Forgeworld (huzzah)


They gained much and lost pretty much nothing. There's nothing to complain about, it wasn't hamfisted.

I couldn't agree more, you said what I took about 500 words to say in just over a dozen...

[Katharon]

Cadian122 knows what I like. Armored Battle Group ftw!

[Charistoph]

They gained much and lost pretty much nothing. There's nothing to complain about, it wasn't hamfisted.

Model-wise, this is correct. Unit-wise, as mentioned earlier, lost the 2W Commander, the 3W Chaplain, and Combat Servitors (and Terminator Command Squad, but we would have been lucky to keep it).

Rules-wise, this was ham-fisted. They could have kept the two main rules that we already had in the Righteous Zeal and No Pity! No Remorse! No Fear! and also allowed the Champion to keep his Vows. But instead we had half of one of the Vows installed as one part of the Chapter Tactics, a weaker (but more controllable) version of Righteous Zeal in Crusader, and one rule to make us challenge monkeys.

Now, don't get me wrong, I LIKE the new version of Accept Any Challenge. It reflects the implied close combat desire that is part of the Templar character and just feels right. If anything, I miss the opportunities a new codex could have presented. One of those would have been to have more Characters available in our squads to engage in Challenges.

[daboarder]

Model-wise, this is correct. Unit-wise, as mentioned earlier, lost the 2W Commander, the 3W Chaplain, and Combat Servitors (and Terminator Command Squad, but we would have been lucky to keep it).


Like every other space marine army?

[Cadian122]

Model-wise, this is correct. Unit-wise, as mentioned earlier, lost the 2W Commander, the 3W Chaplain, and Combat Servitors (and Terminator Command Squad, but we would have been lucky to keep it).

the SM Codex lost all of them in it's previous update, I must say that I was really annoyed if I was facing a BT army, as I found that they tended to be played by the power-gamer chaps who just wanted to adamantine mantle/3+ss stuff (usually the 3W chaplains in Terminator Armour), take a Terminator Assault squad (with Furious Charge) and proceed to ruin ones afternoon/evening. Now if someone takes a BT army, I know that I'll be up against a decent, recent book, with no stupid archaic rules/wargear to worry about.


Like every other space marine army?

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[Katharon]

One thing that does bother me is the Emperor's Champion: specifically his combat challenge stances, and in particular the "Smite the Unclean" stance.

The EC already only has 2 attacks, three if you count the bolt pistol he carries (for two-CC weapons +1 A). However, this particular stance causes the Black Sword to become two-handed, so he loses an attack. All well and good, except that the stance also makes the sword, which had just been handling fine one-handed, "Unwieldy"...dafuq?

You expect me to believe that when the Emperor's Champion grasps his Black Sword with two hands (I know this could sound very dirty, you sick puppies) that he is somehow slower than when he was using it with one hand? I call BS on that one. I would demand that GW FAQ it so that it no longer is "Unwieldy" for that stance.

[Denzark]

One thing that does bother me is the Emperor's Champion: specifically his combat challenge stances, and in particular the "Smite the Unclean" stance.

The EC already only has 2 attacks, three if you count the bolt pistol he carries (for two-CC weapons +1 A). However, this particular stance causes the Black Sword to become two-handed, so he loses an attack. All well and good, except that the stance also makes the sword, which had just been handling fine one-handed, "Unwieldy"...dafuq?

You expect me to believe that when the Emperor's Champion grasps his Black Sword with two hands (I know this could sound very dirty, you sick puppies) that he is somehow slower than when he was using it with one hand? I call BS on that one. I would demand that GW FAQ it so that it no longer is "Unwieldy" for that stance.

He gets extra S for 2-handed. A 2 handed stance would be big sweeping slashes and would be slower, and would cut deeper. What are you complaining about? its entirely reasonable to make you make a tactical choice - if it was always extra S and no negatives, players would do it all the time, making the BTs actually have less fluff/rules.

[Anggul]

In fairness, the Emperor's Champion is indeed a bit meh. The two-handed stance definitely shouldn't make it unwieldy.

Helbrecht and Grimaldus are awesome though.

Basically the only stuff that was lost was the stuff that all other Marines lost coming into 5th ed, let alone 6th ed. They also gained a lot. Black Templars are much better off now than they were before.

Yeah they lost Fearless in CC, that was a shame, but they have Know no Fear anyway. The rule that let them run faster when someone died was silly and made absolutely no sense.

They got better in every other way, the only things that were truly unique to them were Crusader squads and the Emperor's Champion, and those stayed.

[Katharon]

He gets extra S for 2-handed. A 2 handed stance would be big sweeping slashes and would be slower, and would cut deeper. What are you complaining about? its entirely reasonable to make you make a tactical choice - if it was always extra S and no negatives, players would do it all the time, making the BTs actually have less fluff/rules.

He already loses an attack. I'd keep "Unwieldy" if he didn't lose the +1 A, but by losing it your chances of hitting go down by 33% -- so it doesn't matter if you hit harder; if you don't land a single hit, all that strength doesn't do anything for you.

Also, your hypothesis is wrong. Swords swung with two hands are faster than with one. I know this personally to be true. The depth of the cut is meaningless and doesn't factor into the speed of the blow.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I think it's more than just using it two-handed. He's going for mighty deathblows!

It's a game.

[StraightSilver]

I am really not that keen on the changes at all, but to be fair I haven't actually played my BTs yet, only from a look at the Codex.

The biggest change for me is the lack of Chaplains now.

BTs used to be able to take 2 Chaplains that didn't come out of their HQ slot as they were added to other characters.

This meant that I had a Termi Chaplain added to a Termi Command Squad and another Chaplain added to another squad.

Now taking 2 Chaplains takes up 2 HQ slots if I'm not mistaken?

Also losing Termi Command Squads and not being able to take 2 special weapons might not seem like a big deal, but I now have to go back and change a lot of my squads and I'm a veeerrry slooow painter, lol! :)

I'm glad Crusader Squads are still in there, and being able to take LR Crusaders as Dedicated Transports is great but I am not happy about the changes to Sword Brethren.

Vows I could take or leave to be honest, but I hate the fact that I can now play alongside other armies with psykers in!! Just on principle I will stick to not doing that from a fluff point of view. :)

The only way I can currently play my existing BT army is to run it as 2 detachments, allying myself to another Space marine army so that I can field my Chaplains plus a Captain and Empreror's Champion.

[Denzark]

He already loses an attack. I'd keep "Unwieldy" if he didn't lose the +1 A, but by losing it your chances of hitting go down by 33% -- so it doesn't matter if you hit harder; if you don't land a single hit, all that strength doesn't do anything for you.

Also, your hypothesis is wrong. Swords swung with two hands are faster than with one. I know this personally to be true. The depth of the cut is meaningless and doesn't factor into the speed of the blow.

They swing faster one way, but the back cut/recovery/parry is slower.

Besides, Logan Grimnar has his axe count as a power fist when he goes two-handed - therefore he hits last when he does so. As such, because Logan Grimnar is a whole magnitude more of a bad mutha-f*cka than the poxy Emp Champion (in the same way that Wolves are far superior to BT) it is only reasonable that he is similarly impeded.

[Charistoph]

Like every other space marine army?
So Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves are not space marines anymore? That would mean that Black Templars weren't space marines either, but now are again?

Blood Angels and Dark Angels retained their 3W Chaplains. Space Wolves still have 2W Commander. Dark Angels still have a Terminator Command Squad.

So tell me again why couldn't have retained these? All have a reason for being in the SM codex as much as any other Space Marine Codex.


the SM Codex lost all of them in it's previous update, I must say that I was really annoyed if I was facing a BT army, as I found that they tended to be played by the power-gamer chaps who just wanted to adamantine mantle/3+ss stuff (usually the 3W chaplains in Terminator Armour), take a Terminator Assault squad (with Furious Charge) and proceed to ruin ones afternoon/evening. Now if someone takes a BT army, I know that I'll be up against a decent, recent book, with no stupid archaic rules/wargear to worry about.
So the SM codex lost them in the previous codex. So what? They couldn't bring them back? They waste an entry on the Terminator Captain, but couldn't have room for a 2W Force Commander or Lieutenant or a 3W Chaplain?

Please note that I didn't point out most of what you said. I anticipated the loss of the Veteran Skills and even the loss of 5 man mini-Dev squads (actually very surprised to see Crusader squads retain that).

As for the Adamantine Mantle, that was just a piece of cloth compared to the Relic Storm Shield in there now!



The rule that let them run faster when someone died was silly and made absolutely no sense..
Righteous Zeal actually made a lot of sense and the only silly part about it is when they FAQ's the "up to" part out of the rule. It was great for an army configured in spirit and fluff to get in to close combat as quickly as possible but did not rely on Jump Pack or Bike, i.e. footslogging. What's one of the biggest complaints about a footslogging army? Getting to the enemy while being shot to bits. So we turned that to a potential advantage. Shoot us and we get to you even faster than you want. Fluff wise, it would make sense to charge even harder when your buddies are being nailed to the left and right of you out of rage, righteous indignation, or just plain practicality.

[Mr Mystery]

On the subject of Black Templars, and being a mercenary sod.....

Guess who still has the original, Ltd Ed Emperor's Champion in blister??? :p And doesn't need/want it anymore??

[Cadian122]

I am really not that keen on the changes at all, but to be fair I haven't actually played my BTs yet, only from a look at the Codex.

The biggest change for me is the lack of Chaplains now.

BTs used to be able to take 2 Chaplains that didn't come out of their HQ slot as they were added to other characters.

This meant that I had a Termi Chaplain added to a Termi Command Squad and another Chaplain added to another squad.

Now taking 2 Chaplains takes up 2 HQ slots if I'm not mistaken?

Also losing Termi Command Squads and not being able to take 2 special weapons might not seem like a big deal, but I now have to go back and change a lot of my squads and I'm a veeerrry slooow painter, lol! :)

I'm glad Crusader Squads are still in there, and being able to take LR Crusaders as Dedicated Transports is great but I am not happy about the changes to Sword Brethren.

Vows I could take or leave to be honest, but I hate the fact that I can now play alongside other armies with psykers in!! Just on principle I will stick to not doing that from a fluff point of view. :)

The only way I can currently play my existing BT army is to run it as 2 detachments, allying myself to another Space marine army so that I can field my Chaplains plus a Captain and Empreror's Champion.

All Space Marine Armies had that for that codex, yours was no exception, ditto the change for the Terminator command squads, and the special weapon options. You can run your army (in 2000+ point games) as 2 detachments, which means you take 2-4 HQ, 4-12 Troops, 0-6 each of Fast Atack, Heavy Support and Elites, so that shouldn't be too much of an impediment to what you want to achieve there.

What's to complain about painting time, you're painting Black Marines, you've done half the work just undercoating the beggars...


So Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves are not space marines anymore? That would mean that Black Templars weren't space marines either, but now are again?

Blood Angels and Dark Angels retained their 3W Chaplains. Space Wolves still have 2W Commander. Dark Angels still have a Terminator Command Squad.

So tell me again why couldn't have retained these? All have a reason for being in the SM codex as much as any other Space Marine Codex.


So the SM codex lost them in the previous codex. So what? They couldn't bring them back? They waste an entry on the Terminator Captain, but couldn't have room for a 2W Force Commander or Lieutenant or a 3W Chaplain?

Please note that I didn't point out most of what you said. I anticipated the loss of the Veteran Skills and even the loss of 5 man mini-Dev squads (actually very surprised to see Crusader squads retain that).

As for the Adamantine Mantle, that was just a piece of cloth compared to the Relic Storm Shield in there now!


Righteous Zeal actually made a lot of sense and the only silly part about it is when they FAQ's the "up to" part out of the rule. It was great for an army configured in spirit and fluff to get in to close combat as quickly as possible but did not rely on Jump Pack or Bike, i.e. footslogging. What's one of the biggest complaints about a footslogging army? Getting to the enemy while being shot to bits. So we turned that to a potential advantage. Shoot us and we get to you even faster than you want. Fluff wise, it would make sense to charge even harder when your buddies are being nailed to the left and right of you out of rage, righteous indignation, or just plain practicality.

And I'm out, it's been mentioned ad nauseum that the changes are mostly what had happened when the Marine Codex was updated for 5th Edition, and the 4th Ed codices were essentially the same.

I can't speak for the Dark Angels codex, as I haven't read it properly yet, but they don't get Terminator command squads, they get DEATHWING COMMAND SQUADS, small difference there, considering they are the only loyalist chapter to have their entire first company in Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

Space Wolves aren't a Codex chapter, and they are more hero-based than the BT, hence the better variety for the Characters. I never see SW players taking the Wolf Guard Battle leader in an army (unless it's 500-odd points or so)

I presume that the reason the BA get the 3W chaplain is because they get chaplains as Elites, and they needed some way to differentiate from them.

Anyway, back to my point about what you lost - they were all Space Marine units that were dropped for the old codex, and now your codex has been brought up to date, you're now whining about losing them.

I can't help but think that BT players would be whining about not having an up to date codex, and how awesome the new SM one was if they weren't included.

Anyway, that's my final 5p, as I said earlier, I'm out, I'll leave you to your whinging...

[Chris*ta]

Also, your hypothesis is wrong. Swords swung with two hands are faster than with one. I know this personally to be true. The depth of the cut is meaningless and doesn't factor into the speed of the blow.


It's a game.

I seem to recall almost the exact same argument occurring on here when 6th Ed was released in regards to the Power Axe ;)

[Chris*ta]

I can't speak for the Dark Angels codex, as I haven't read it properly yet, but they don't get Terminator command squads, they get DEATHWING COMMAND SQUADS, small difference there, considering they are the only loyalist chapter to have their entire first company in Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

I probably shouldn't point out that every chapter got (Terminator) Command Squads in the 1st Ed of Space Hulk, should I? :rolleyes:

[Charistoph]

And I'm out, it's been mentioned ad nauseum that the changes are mostly what had happened when the Marine Codex was updated for 5th Edition, and the 4th Ed codices were essentially the same.
But we're not in 5th, we're in 6th. It doesn't answer the question why certain things were excluded NOW and could have easily been brought back in, especially when the other Marine codices have them.


I can't speak for the Dark Angels codex, as I haven't read it properly yet, but they don't get Terminator command squads, they get DEATHWING COMMAND SQUADS, small difference there, considering they are the only loyalist chapter to have their entire first company in Tactical Dreadnought Armour.
And that prevents the Command Squad of the First Company for EVERY codex chapter from being able to wear TDA?

And last time I checked, Deathwings ARE Terminators. I didn't ask for Terminator Troops (to which a point about the entire First Company being deployed en masse in TDA is a small point, btw, their Successors can do it, too, not just the First Founding Chapter), just for the Terminator CAPTAIN and/or CHAPTER MASTER to be able to be fielded in a proper Command/Honor Squad just like the Artificier and Power Armoured guys do.


Space Wolves aren't a Codex chapter, and they are more hero-based than the BT, hence the better variety for the Characters. I never see SW players taking the Wolf Guard Battle leader in an army (unless it's 500-odd points or so)
Doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful. Not everyone wants to field a Captain or Chapter Master for their army, or a Librarian or a Chaplain.


I presume that the reason the BA get the 3W chaplain is because they get chaplains as Elites, and they needed some way to differentiate from them.
That may be a point if Dark Angels didn't have both of their Chaplains in the HQ slot...


Anyway, back to my point about what you lost - they were all Space Marine units that were dropped for the old codex, and now your codex has been brought up to date, you're now whining about losing them.
1) So were the Angels and the Puppies, so that point is moot.

2) Not whining, correcting and questioning. There is a difference, tone being one of which that is hard to translate in text.


I can't help but think that BT players would be whining about not having an up to date codex, and how awesome the new SM one was if they weren't included.
Some would, no doubt. Most wouldn't, and I never whined about them not being as up to date as Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Ultramarines (though, having an FAQ clearing the prices for Grenades out would have been nice), and wouldn't mind keep going with what we had. Heck, I even wrote up a little conversion fandex to bring the old codex "up to speed". There's even a copy of it available down in the Homegrown Rules section if you want to peruse it.

[Eldar_Atog]

I would say it all comes down to this: The Black Templars just don't have enough differences from regular space marines to warrant a full book. GW also couldn't dedicate too much of the codex to Black Templar speciality stuff. The other chapters (Salamandars, Iron Hands, etc) would then be screaming about how they didn't get similiar treatment in the new codex.

No one wants to see their army lose things but the templars are gaining more than they lost. They might loss their reputation as one of those armies that beardy players love to abuse.

[Charistoph]

I would say it all comes down to this: The Black Templars just don't have enough differences from regular space marines to warrant a full book. GW also couldn't dedicate too much of the codex to Black Templar speciality stuff. The other chapters (Salamandars, Iron Hands, etc) would then be screaming about how they didn't get similiar treatment in the new codex.
A poor reasoning. Dark Angels had even less to work with. Blood Angels only a little more that could easily be brought in. Space Wolves were but a supplement before their 5th Codex, and even then it wouldn't take much more to fold them back in than Templars. A separate 6th Edition codex for Templars could easily have been like the Puppies or the Angels.

The only real challenge with the Angels and Puppies is the plethora of Special Characters they have now. Those would take up a lot of room.


No one wants to see their army lose things but the templars are gaining more than they lost. They might loss their reputation as one of those armies that beardy players love to abuse.
No one accused Black Templars of abusing things, at least not since 5th Edition started.

[Eldar_Atog]

A poor reasoning. Dark Angels had even less to work with. Blood Angels only a little more that could easily be brought in. Space Wolves were but a supplement before their 5th Codex, and even then it wouldn't take much more to fold them back in than Templars. A separate 6th Edition codex for Templars could easily have been like the Puppies or the Angels.


No, it's not poor reasoning. Space Wolves had a full codex in 3rd edition. Pretty much all of the codexes from 3rd were the size of suppliments. The Space Wolf codex was the same size as the Dark Eldar book and only a little smaller then the Eldar codex.

Like it or not, Dark Angels, Wolves, and Blood Angels are more established than Black Templars. They had 3rd edition codexes so their player bases are bigger than Black Templars. Your army came from the Armageddon book.. every other speciality army in that book has been put back in their basic book:

Salamanders>>>>>>>>> Basic Space Marine book
Speed Freeks>>>>>>>> Ork book
Armageddon Imperial Guard>>> Guard codex

I'll go even farther. The other event codex "Eye of Terror" has seen every single bit get re-absorbed back into the basic codexes:

Lost and the Damned>> Chaos Space Marines
Ulthwé Strike Force>> Eldar book
Cadian Shock Troops >> Guard book
13th Company >> Space Wolves book

I'm sure the people that played those lists would have liked their own codexes or suppliments too. Black Templars got to keep more than some of the armies from that list.

As for abuse... There have been a few mentions of it in this topic alone.

[deinol]

The reality is, it was fold them into the core codex or put them in the back of the line for a new codex with poor Sisters. If you are lucky you'll get a nice supplement later with some special characters and the rest of the things you've lost.

As it is, I'm still waiting for my Harlequin army list to be playable again.

[DarkLink]

A poor reasoning. Dark Angels had even less to work with. Blood Angels only a little more that could easily be brought in. Space Wolves were but a supplement before their 5th Codex, and even then it wouldn't take much more to fold them back in than Templars. A separate 6th Edition codex for Templars could easily have been like the Puppies or the Angels.

The only real challenge with the Angels and Puppies is the plethora of Special Characters they have now. Those would take up a lot

So... you're agreeing with what he's said, then claiming it's poor reasoning because gw hasn't done it?

There should be one SM codex. As you just pointed out, there's no reason for separate BA and DA books, who only just get left in the dust by the new sm codex.

[Cadian122]

But we're not in 5th, we're in 6th. It doesn't answer the question why certain things were excluded NOW and could have easily been brought back in, especially when the other Marine codices have them.

But then there's the fact (that you keep ignoring) that the old BT Codex was a 4th Edition book, essentially the 4th Ed SM codex, with a few changes. You had no updates for 5th - when all of these changes happened with the SM book - except for the odd FAQ, which is why I keep referring to the 4th/5th Ed Codices...

[Cadian122]

2) Not whining, correcting and questioning. There is a difference, tone being one of which that is hard to translate in text.

Certainly seems like the former...

[Charistoph]

No, it's not poor reasoning. Space Wolves had a full codex in 3rd edition. Pretty much all of the codexes from 3rd were the size of suppliments. The Space Wolf codex was the same size as the Dark Eldar book and only a little smaller then the Eldar codex.
No, Space Wolves (along with the Angels) were a Supplement for 3rd, they just had fewer entries than the Angels referring back to Codex: Space Marines.


Like it or not, Dark Angels, Wolves, and Blood Angels are more established than Black Templars. They had 3rd edition codexes so their player bases are bigger than Black Templars.
And a second codex would have changed that, just like the 4th, 5th, and 6th Edition codices reinvigorated the Angels and Puppies. Just because they have a 3rd Edition codex is no valid reason to leave them out of being rolled in, and not having one is no reason TO be rolled in. There are enough Templar fans out there who just got tired by being left behind. Just like the Dark Angels with their 4th Edition codex.


Your army came from the Armageddon book.. every other speciality army in that book has been put back in their basic book...

...I'm sure the people that played those lists would have liked their own codexes or suppliments too. Black Templars got to keep more than some of the armies from that list.
No doubt, but none of them were a full codex on their own and not just a supplement.


As for abuse... There have been a few mentions of it in this topic alone.
I just saw one really. Most abuses were in early 4th Edition. What "abuses" that could be listed in 5th and 6th are nothing compared to what abuses were heaped on everyone by Space Wolves and Grey Knights, and then Necrons in 6th.


So... you're agreeing with what he's said, then claiming it's poor reasoning because gw hasn't done it?
No, the reasoning behind the "cause" was poor. If that was the real reason, then Dark Angels would have not been the second codex of 6th, even while being the Stars of the Starter Set, and we would have seen a full 8-9 Tactics in Codex: Space Marines and Dark Angels would have been the first Supplement, even before Iyanden.


There should be one SM codex. As you just pointed out, there's no reason for separate BA and DA books, who only just get left in the dust by the new sm codex.
I've never argued otherwise. I've always been of the opinion that if Templars are brought in to Codex: Space Marines then there is more than enough reason and capacity to do all the rest. I even posted a modified FOC on Warseer during a similar discussion that would allow for all 10 to be in one codex.


But then there's the fact (that you keep ignoring) that the old BT Codex was a 4th Edition book, essentially the 4th Ed SM codex, with a few changes. You had no updates for 5th - when all of these changes happened with the SM book - except for the odd FAQ, which is why I keep referring to the 4th/5th Ed Codices...
I know exactly when it was released, nor have I ignored it. The fact that they were not maintained for C:SM 5th Edition didn't stop some of the changes I mentioned to appear or be maintained in other space marine codices that came after. Nor is it a valid reason not to return those things back in to the current GENERAL Space Marine codex. And that is the point that YOU seem to be ignoring.


Certainly seems like the former...
Then you don't know how to read, I guess. Whining would involve complaining about how I can no longer win because X and Y sucks all the time. I've stated facts in an attempt at clarity. You are the one whining. Do not project upon me.

[Katharon]

They swing faster one way, but the back cut/recovery/parry is slower.

That is dependent upon the wielder and the technique. As for a sword being so wielded by a Space Marine? Hardly.


Besides, Logan Grimnar has his axe count as a power fist when he goes two-handed - therefore he hits last when he does so. As such, because Logan Grimnar is a whole magnitude more of a bad mutha-f*cka than the poxy Emp Champion (in the same way that Wolves are far superior to BT) it is only reasonable that he is similarly impeded.

An axe is not a sword. A sword is meant to be balanced along its entire length. An axe is meant to crush and cut like a butchers blade -- hence the weight is all in the head of the weapon -- for more force when swung. Can't really compare the two that much.



I seem to recall almost the exact same argument occurring on here when 6th Ed was released in regards to the Power Axe ;)

A human is slower when slashing down with an axe than sword. A space marine using a space marine-made axe is going to be slower than a space marine using a space marine-made sword. The weapon is built for the user, if I'm getting my meaning across at all? That's all I mean.


But, 'nuff said. They aren't likely to change it, but I wish they would.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Proper two-handers are lighter than you'd think, too. A good one would weigh about the same as a cricket bat.

But the thing is, just as with spaceships exploding noisily, it doesn't feel like they should work that way in the turned-to-eleven crazy world of 40k, so they don't.

[StMichael]

Since the days of 4th when our codex was up to date, we have lost some of our core strength (Righteous Fury + consolidation into close combat, old preferred enemy, land raiders that weren't made out of paper mache) and we've gained options/reduced point costs. I'm sure the same could be said of 6th in general, but we've lost our close combat potency. We even lost our Rage USR from the FAQ. We are a close combat specialist chapter that has the exact same melee staying power as any other vanilla chapter.

That supplement had better bring a lot of melee staying power, or I'm rebuilding my old Dark Eldar army.

Edit: A few ideas since I've got the time.

I can think of 3 key qualities in making a good CC army. Being really strong in all 3 would be entirely too much and just break the game, but if the Templars were strong at one, good at another and weak on the third, I think that would make for a reasonable assault list. First is getting into melee reasonably fast without getting shot up too bad. Universal Crusader and Fleet from Helbrecht for one assault is OK, not nearly the scariness of 4th edition Dark Eldar (Turn 1 charge with a S6 A6 I6 archon, /tear) but they can get around on foot. I hesitate to call this a true strength because even if you manage to get them across the board relatively safely by clever use of cover and good movement, they still have to deal with overwatch.

Second, staying power. Our old codex used to have this in spades with Accept Any Challenge and a good number of bodies, not to mention an Emperor's Champion that got +1A from his bolt pistol AND the +2 strength from the Black Sword. This has since been reduced to Rage when Preferred Enemy was downgraded in 6th, and then again reduced to only rerolls for a challenge.

Third, survivability. Here we've gained a little and lost a lot. Just about everything in our army is a few points cheaper, which in turn means more models and translates to survivability. However, shooting has become significantly more deadly over time, rendering both sheer numbers and Rhinos ineffective.

In all honesty, if we were to get back pseudo equivalents of our old 4th edition strengths (AAC and Righteous Fury) or new units to cover these weaknesses, then I'd be happy with that.

[pgmason]

I'm a bit torn on the changes overall - in particular I have an assault squad where some of the marines have storm shields - now they need to be expensive vanguard vets and take up an elite slot instead of fast attack.

Also, am I right in thinking that the Emperor's champion now takes up an Hq slot? If so, that's a pretty major change.

[Katharon]

Btw, is anyone else pissed off that they make you pay for a "Veteran" sergeant upgrade in your troop units now? Instead of the sergeant being automatically considered a veteran -- he has rank for obvious f-ing reasons -- you now have to promote him to Veteran Sergeant in order to get the Leadership 9 and 2A in the profile. I dislike this a great deal.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The 5th Ed book lumped all the options together into a basic package, so your sergeant was always a veteran and you got, say, the free flamer and missile launcher. Now, you have to pay for all those things, but the price remains the same - a tactical squad with all those things is still 170 points. It doesn't really make a difference. It does mean that for a shooty squad you can not bother spending the points on an extra attack and give them a combiweapon instead. It's just for the extra granularity of choice, really.

[DarkLink]

The vet upgrade costs exactly what it did beforehand. The only difference is that now you have the option of not paying it if you don't want it. That it's still overpriced is only tangentially relevant.



No, the reasoning behind the "cause" was poor. If that was the real reason, then Dark Angels would have not been the second codex of 6th, even while being the Stars of the Starter Set, and we would have seen a full 8-9 Tactics in Codex: Space Marines and Dark Angels would have been the first Supplement, even before Iyanden.

And yet... they still did it.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Dark Angels are a First Founding chapter who've had a Codex almost as long as there've been codices. Black Templars are a successor who've had a codex only since 4th. I'd, personally, roll all the Space Marine factions into one megadex, but I can see why they don't. It's just the way it is. Black Templars, they felt, could be handled by a variant unit, a set of special rules, and a few characters, and I'm not sure I disagree.

[Eldar_Atog]

Dark Angels are a First Founding chapter who've had a Codex almost as long as there've been codices. Black Templars are a successor who've had a codex only since 4th. I'd, personally, roll all the Space Marine factions into one megadex, but I can see why they don't. It's just the way it is. Black Templars, they felt, could be handled by a variant unit, a set of special rules, and a few characters, and I'm not sure I disagree.

Yeah, I prefer the idea of combining the marines into a central book and having a group of suppliments for each of the major factions. I've seen waayy to many shenanagains pulled by people using the 6 different marine codexes to muddy the waters on rules... especially against newer players.

It's the reason I don't look back on the old "craftworld eldar codex" very fondly. The crazy shrine lists, the ranger disruption table, wraithlords as troops... there were a lot of things in that book that should never again see the light of day.

Imagine getting a nice Black Templars suppliment that is stuffed to gills with fluff, some neat wargear, and a special character or 2. Plus, the fluff wouldn't spend 10 pages talking about the Horus Heresy, the Emperor, or the other 40K history from before the founding of the Black Templars.

[StMichael]

Imagine getting a nice Black Templars suppliment that is stuffed to gills with fluff, some neat wargear, and a special character or 2. Plus, the fluff wouldn't spend 10 pages talking about the Horus Heresy, the Emperor, or the other 40K history from before the founding of the Black Templars.

I haven't seen any of the new supplements yet, but I would be pretty pissed paying $50 for a bunch of fluff, a bit of wargear and one or two special characters. For that kind of money, I'd expect some rules for our old Righteous Fury or equivalent back, a new BT unit in each FOC slot (or at least a way to modify an existing one), new Vows to replace the old ones we lost (the new AAC is a pale mockery of its former self) in addition to some wargear (holy handgrenade!) and our fluff.

[Eldar_Atog]

I haven't seen any of the new supplements yet, but I would be pretty pissed paying $50 for a bunch of fluff, a bit of wargear and one or two special characters. For that kind of money, I'd expect some rules for our old Righteous Fury or equivalent back, a new BT unit in each FOC slot (or at least a way to modify an existing one), new Vows to replace the old ones we lost (the new AAC is a pale mockery of its former self) in addition to some wargear (holy handgrenade!) and our fluff.

You would be disappointed in the suppliments then. The Iyandan book has a few changes but nothing on the scale you mention. New Warlord traits, a few changes to Spirit Seers, some new wargear, and wraithlords/wraithknights can be Warlord(still not considered HQ).

To me, it was worth it. Iyandan had so few mentions in the fluff... just a few paragraphs from the Prince Yriel entry. Now, it has a nice backstory and more character than "The Wraith army". If they do suppliments for the other 4 big craftworlds, I'd gladly pick them up.

[deinol]

Rumor has it later supplements will have a bit more rules than the first few, but they were "testing the waters" with easier (fewer rules changes) books first.

We'll see how the first marine supplement turns out, which while rumored to be White Scars doesn't seem to be on the horizon yet. Of course, White Scars already have a pretty solid list in the new codex.