Can Tank Hunter force Re-rolls on Serpent Shields?

[cebalrai]

The attacker pens a Wave Serpent. Serpent shields say that "penetrating hits against the front and side armor become glancing hits on a 2+".

So is the timing of Serpent Shields on the attacker's pen check step or does it occur after the pen is passed to the defender's step? Is it an infinite loop?

Attacker pens
Serpent turns it into a glance
Attacker tank hunters it back to a pen
Serpent turns it into a glance
Attacker Tank hunters it back to a pen
Serpent turns it into a glance....

[chicop76]

The attacker pens a Wave Serpent. Serpent shields say that "penetrating hits against the front and side armor become glancing hits on a 2+".

So is the timing of Serpent Shields on the attacker's pen check step or does it occur after the pen is passed to the defender's step?

I don't really understand the question. Once you pen the shield can down grade it to a glance. The shield happens after tank hunter. Tank hunter allows you to re roll if you fail to pen. The serpent shield turns a pen into a glance, so what's the confusion.

[cebalrai]

I don't really understand the question. Once you pen the shield can down grade it to a glance. The shield happens after tank hunter. Tank hunter allows you to re roll if you fail to pen. The serpent shield turns a pen into a glance, so what's the confusion.


How do you know the shield happens after tank hunter? The description of the shield doesn't say that. If it's timed to happen during the penetration check phase then maybe TH can happen after it...

[FlyerMM]

Tank hunter lets reroll failed penetration rolls.

The serpent shield can only be used after a successful penetrating hit has been made.

If the shield was rolled for, then the penetration roll did not fail, and as such cannot be re-rolled.

Allowing a TH reroll in this situation would be the same as saying you have a rule that lets you reroll failed to wound rolls and you would get to reroll the to wound rolls for wounds that were saved by the enemy.

[cebalrai]

Tank hunter lets reroll failed penetration rolls.

The serpent shield can only be used after a successful penetrating hit has been made.

If the shield was rolled for, then the penetration roll did not fail, and as such cannot be re-rolled.

Allowing a TH reroll in this situation would be the same as saying you have a rule that lets you reroll failed to wound rolls and you would get to reroll the to wound rolls for wounds that were saved by the enemy.

How do we know that Serpent Shield checks aren't made before TH?

[Kaptain Badrukk]

How do we know that Serpent Shield checks aren't made before TH?

Because what you just quoted?
The serpent shield can only be used after a successful penetrating hit has been made.
And TH allows you to re-roll failed penetration rolls.
If you like, think of it as a "venerable waveserpent".
The rule (shield) is triggered by the completion of the process effected by tank hunter, and therefore cannot be effected by tank hunter.

EDIT * In retrospect a direct quote from a book would be helpful, i'll get my eldar dex out when I get home *

[SaveModifier]

How do we know that Serpent Shield checks aren't made before TH?

Serpent shield only effects the penetrating hits, so, if there was no penetrating hit, it wouldn't come into play, if you used Tank Hunter to make an attack penetrating, then you can use the Serpent Shield.

FlyerMM explained it correctly, its about the order of activiation, Tank Hunter comes into effect when You roll fail to ROLL a penetrating hit, Serpent Sheild changes a Penetrating hit that You have rolled, you haven't then rolled a glancing hit, you're rolled a penetrating hit thats been changed to glace, so the Tankk Hunter USR doesn't kick in.

You seem to want to keep using Tank Hunter in your turn, by your logic, you could keep rerolling the glancing hits to make them penetrate!

[chicop76]

Tank hunter lets reroll failed penetration rolls.

The serpent shield can only be used after a successful penetrating hit has been made.

If the shield was rolled for, then the penetration roll did not fail, and as such cannot be re-rolled.

Allowing a TH reroll in this situation would be the same as saying you have a rule that lets you reroll failed to wound rolls and you would get to reroll the to wound rolls for wounds that were saved by the enemy.

I was gonna say the same thing lol.

Example:
Pure tide chip commander joins broadside with skyfire and rail gun and the broadside fires at a Helldrake. Broadside pens and the Helldrake saves with +5 invulnerable save. The Broadside player says" wait my chip gives me tank hunter" the player than rolls again getting another pen. Broadside player says" you have to roll again" the Helldrake player rolls again and fails invulnerable save and hellturkey blows up.

At this point they hell turkey player takes his model and slaps the broadside player for not being able to follow the rules.

The example is what it sounds like you want tank hunter to do. All tank hunter do is if you fail to pen it allows you to roll again to attempt to get a pen the second time. If you pen the first time Tank Hunter wouldn't even come into effect.

The serpent shield happens afterwards since it needs a pen to downgrade the pen to a glance. No pen, no sheild effect.

Soooo this is what happens.

1. You fail to pen, you re roll fail to pen shield does not go into effect.
2. You fail to pen, Tank hunter goes into effect and you re roll and got a pen, shield goes into effect and can down grade pen into a glance.
3. You pen without tank hunter going off, since you cause a pen the shield goes off and can reduce it to a glance.

Let's entertain the reverse. If Serpent Shield happened before a pen is even rolled than the Shield won't stop pens from getting through at all. It would be a silly wasted rule.

Unless your point is this

1. You fail to pen
2. Serpent Shield kicks in
3. Tank hunter kicks in and you get a pen

It doesn't happen tht way. For serpent shield to work you need a pen. Which means it happens after tank hunter.

It's like trying to make ice cream without the cold. You can't do it.

[cebalrai]

Serpent shield only effects the penetrating hits, so, if there was no penetrating hit, it wouldn't come into play, if you used Tank Hunter to make an attack penetrating, then you can use the Serpent Shield.

FlyerMM explained it correctly, its about the order of activiation, Tank Hunter comes into effect when You roll a glancing hit, Serpent Sheild changes a Penetrating hit that You have rolled, you haven't then rolled a glancing hit, you're rolled a penetrating hit thats been changed to glace, so the Tankk Hunter USR doesn't kick in.

You seem to want to keep using Tank Hunter in your turn, by your logic, you could keep rerolling the glancing hits to make them penetrate!


I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here. I'm an Eldar player but I really didn't know for sure.

But in response to your post, the situation being discussed was where initially a TH re-roll wasn't needed because it was an outright pen. Then SS made it a glance. Since TH wasn't used yet and SS doesn't specify when it occurs, the attacker feels like he's looking at a glance and an unused TH ability that he then wants to use.

[Denzark]

How do we know that Serpent Shield checks aren't made before TH?

Because Tank Hunter lets you reroll to pen. The Shiled doesn't come into play until after the penetration is confirmed as successful. Because there has to have been a successful penetration to actually downgrade to a glance. No pen would mean ntohing to downgrade, successful pen means you have already done TH.

Warrant Officer Ellen Ripley: "Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"

[SaveModifier]

I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here. I'm an Eldar player but I really didn't know for sure.

But in response to your post, the situation being discussed was where initially a TH re-roll wasn't needed because it was an outright pen. Then SS made it a glance. Since TH wasn't used yet and SS doesn't specify when it occurs, the attacker feels like he's looking at a glance and an unused TH ability that he then wants to use.


But his roll was a Penetrating Hit, which means he doesn't get Tank Hunter, SS changes thus to a Glancing Hit, but he stil rolled a Penetrating Hit.

[Angelofblades]

Because TH is triggered when you roll to pen sir.

Roll To Hit ---> Roll To Penetrate
Did you fail to pen?
Yes
Roll TH
Did you successfully pen?
TH need not apply.

You successfully rolled to penetrate. The Serpent shields have nothing to do with your successful roll.

To clarify, TH only modify's YOUR roll, if you are unsuccessful.

It is not affected by what your opponent does.

Do you get another chance to attempt a pen if a cover save was made? No.

Same concept.

[FlyerMM]

As others have said, TH would not allow a reroll after the shield because the roll was still a successful penetrating result. The sheild does not change the roll that was initially made, only the effect it has on the tank.

[Asuryan]

I would allow some one to try that against me because if they penetrate and SS goes off, then they re roll for TH and since every dice may only be re-rolled once they have a chance of not even glancing and if they penetrate then i can still reduce it to a glance with the SS. Of course there is a small chance i would fail the SS roll on the second roll, but obviously a better chance of my opponent failing to do anything.

[Dave Mcturk]

Warrant Officer Ellen Ripley: "Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"

pmsl