Stuff they didn't fix

[DarkLink]

So, Space Marines are out and they're awesome. And I'm totally going to brag that I've advocated this exact Chapter Tactics system for literally years now, as an improvement over the last codex's special character only Chapter Tactics and as a means to compress other SM codices into one big book with little loss.

But there are some things that still baffle me about the codex. In particular, Sternguard can take Storm Bolters for 5pts each. But, their special ammo does not work with Storm Bolters. So, basically, you're paying a lot of points to lose the number one reason to actually take Sternguard in the first place. WTF, GW? This was a problem in the last codex, were you guys not paying attention?

[interrogator_chaplain]

I'm thinking it might be because of Assault 2, ignores cover or AP3, etc. etc. Might be a little too much. You get 10 together with Storm Bolters, 20 Assault 2, AP3 shots and you'd be dropping MEQ wayyy to quick. You've got Centurions for that.

I don't think it's that big a blow not to include SB's in the group.

[DarkLink]

As if there isnt already plenty of ap3 options out there. They dont gain as much as you seem to think. One extra shot at longer rang is good, but for 27pts each they'd better be good. Regardless, why do you pay to downgrade?

[Houghten]

Orks wonder the same thing about their 'ard cases.

[Katharon]

People seem to underestimate the regular old bolt round so much...and also, matching a ten man unit of Sternguard all with stormbolters and Lyzander proved hilarious for me during 5th edition.

But yeah, it doesn't make logical sense -- but its meant to keep people from abusing the special ammunition rules with stormbolters.

[pauljc]

It's because the game isn't just about 'what's better'. It's about options and choice. I am quite certain many folk can come up with tactical uses for Storm bolters. Such as shooting a poop load of regular bolt rounds to thin out a squad before a charge.

[SaveModifier]

I always thought that the specialist ammo does seem to be more of a few shots thing, load up the rounds and use precise targetting to utilise this expensive and rare ammunition effectivly against the right targets, which wouldn't really work with the storm of fire from a Storm Bolter, so fluff-wise, it seems fine to me, I've just assembled by Sterguard and given the sergeant a storm bolter because it looks awesome.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

TBH i see both points on this one.
SB would have to cost more than 5pts, because let's be honest Kraken rounds alone would be abusive.
BUT (correct me here) they're now cheaper than combis? Which gives you a different choice for the unit's use i guess.

On the other hand, you can see the moment in the armory clearly

Brother Steve - Sternguard and Brother Tony - Techmarine are preparing Steve's gear for deployment.
Steve "Ok, got all my special bolt rounds, got my ornate bolter, got anything a bit shootier Tony?"
Tony "Hmmmmm........ *roots around in big crate* stormbolter?"
Steve "Hoorah! now i'll really be able to kick xenos proboscis!!"
Tony "Ok, there you go. I'll need your ornate bolter and all your special ammo back."
Steve "Sure here you..... Hey wait, what?"
Tony "I'll need your ornate bolter and all your special ammo back."
Steve "But why? I mean surely i'll kill more xenos if i could use this stormbolter WITH the special ammo."
Tony "You know, I'd never thought of that. I'll check the Codex............"
*Steve waits impatiently as Tony goes over his data slate.*
Tony "Sorry man, Codex says no."
Steve "But..."
Tony "CODEX says NO!"
Steve "Fine, take your stupid stormbolter back, Jerk."
Tony "NEXT!"

[Mr Mystery]

Well, that and Storm Bolters have a higher rate of fire. They'd likely burn through their special ammo too quick.

Some of it is hand loaded you know, meaning they're a liability to Storm Bolter.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Meh, my mental image made me smile more, so i'm sticking with it.
In my head it's like the line for a school canteen, with all the ultramarines jostling each other......

[Tynskel]

in 5th Edition, Stormbolters + Lysander = Amazing Charge from Sternguard.

It has its place.

[dreadnoughtguy]

the basic problem is that it is an upgrade. By definition an upgrade is an improvement over the basic item you start with. the stormbolter is not an upgrade from a bolter with special ammo. It is at best an even swap. It should either be free or be able to use the ammo. but being more expensive and worse is just stupid.

[SaveModifier]

the basic problem is that it is an upgrade. By definition an upgrade is an improvement over the basic item you start with. the stormbolter is not an upgrade from a bolter with special ammo. It is at best an even swap. It should either be free or be able to use the ammo. but being more expensive and worse is just stupid.

but it isn't, so

[dreadnoughtguy]

as soon you can prove how str 4 ap 5 is better than str 4 ap 3 and str 4 ap 4 and all the rest you might have a point. one extra shot is not worth the ammo versatility and 5 points.

[DarkLink]

TBH i see both points on this one.
SB would have to cost more than 5pts, because let's be honest Kraken rounds alone would be abusive.
BUT (correct me here) they're now cheaper than combis? Which gives you a different choice for the unit's use i guess.


Kraken rounds come with their own drawbacks. 18" range, and one sternguard dies on average each time you shoot. Plus, 30pt Marines still die like Marines. It would be good, but you're overrating the AP3.

[Anggul]

I can't really think of any unit that I would buy a Storm Bolter for. They're generally only used because Rhinos and Drop Pods come with them.

[evilamericorp]

Sorry, it's my fault. I have a Space Wolf army that consists of Logan Grimnar and power armored, stormbolter-wielding Wolf Guard as troops. 21 points is a steal for a SM veteran with a stormbolter and countercharge. I really wanted to be able to use some of those models in a vanilla SM army, but GW hates me and made them ridiculously expensive so I couldn't.

The Sternguard entry should have said:
-Any model can replace his boltgun and special issue ammunition with a stormbolter....................................... ......................free

[Tynskel]

Sorry, it's my fault. I have a Space Wolf army that consists of Logan Grimnar and power armored, stormbolter-wielding Wolf Guard as troops. 21 points is a steal for a SM veteran with a stormbolter and countercharge. I really wanted to be able to use some of those models in a vanilla SM army, but GW hates me and made them ridiculously expensive so I couldn't.

The Sternguard entry should have said:
-Any model can replace his boltgun and special issue ammunition with a stormbolter....................................... ......................free

You shouldn't get the stormbolter for free. You can charge after using the weapon, and the guys have 2 attacks.

Additionally, sometimes point values are set to also discourage their use.

[DarkLink]

And you lose Special Ammo. Storm Bolters are a downgrade for Sternguard, even with the extra shot at 24" and the ability to assault afterwards.

[Tynskel]

And you lose Special Ammo. Storm Bolters are a downgrade for Sternguard, even with the extra shot at 24" and the ability to assault afterwards.

I would suggest not taking them if you do not like them.

[dirkspair]

first of, get your special rounds straight, people. kraken rounds have a range of 30" and AP4, vengeance rounds are the marine killers with AP3. getting basic stuff like that mixed up makes your opinions seem uneducated and questionable.

second, there are instances where a storm bolter is better then a bolter with special ammo, they might be few and far between but they are there (like the ability to charge after shooting storm bolters for example)

some options may not be cost effective in some peoples opinion, but that is why they are called options. you want them and you feel like you can formulate a working tactic around them, go for it, if not, bypass them and look for other things to spend your points on.

[DarkLink]

Dude, not everyone plays Space Marines. I don't know what the name of every single round is. There's a wound on a 2+, an AP3 Gets Hot, an Ignores cover one. So if you're going to be a dick, go be a dick on warseer or something.


I would suggest not taking them if you do not like them.

...what?

So, X unit has Y upgrade that is so overpriced that no one ever takes it. It would be logical that, being so overpriced, they would reprice it according to its actual worth. Because that's how game balance works. You price things appropriately, so (ideally) nothing is overpriced or underpriced.

Or, I guess, just tell everyone who looks longingly at X+Y to bugger off?

[dirkspair]

sorry, from your posts i assumed that you did play Space Marines.

[DarkLink]

Not yet. I've been picking up models for an allied contingent and/or second army, same thing with Eldar. Then -bam- both get brand new codices within months of each other. And I play against Space Marines often enough, and I know enough very good players who do play Space Marines, that I know the codex pretty well. You'll just have to forgive me if I mix up the names of vengeance and kraken rounds.

And, since my main army is Grey Knights, I do know a thing or two about Marines with Storm Bolters ;).

[Tynskel]

Dude, not everyone plays Space Marines. I don't know what the name of every single round is. There's a wound on a 2+, an AP3 Gets Hot, an Ignores cover one. So if you're going to be a dick, go be a dick on warseer or something.



...what?

So, X unit has Y upgrade that is so overpriced that no one ever takes it. It would be logical that, being so overpriced, they would reprice it according to its actual worth. Because that's how game balance works. You price things appropriately, so (ideally) nothing is overpriced or underpriced.

Or, I guess, just tell everyone who looks longingly at X+Y to bugger off?

I have told you, there are instances where the storm bolter is worth while, and worth the points. It comes down to army design.

Sometimes firing 2 shots and then charging with 3 attacks is worth many times more than having the special issue ammo.

The option makes an item 'available' but the price can 'discourage' its use.

[evilamericorp]

I have told you, there are instances where the storm bolter is worth while, and worth the points. It comes down to army design.

Sometimes firing 2 shots and then charging with 3 attacks is worth many times more than having the special issue ammo.

The option makes an item 'available' but the price can 'discourage' its use.

So why is the Space Wolf equivalent 6 points cheaper? The armies aren't different enough to justify that much of a point spread simply from an internal balance point of view.

[Tynskel]

So why is the Space Wolf equivalent 6 points cheaper? The armies aren't different enough to justify that much of a point spread simply from an internal balance point of view.

I would never compare individual units from one army with individual units from another army, even if they are similar.

Why? Because the synergies between the two armies are different. The point costs in one list is *not* equivalent to the 'same' unit another army.

Just look at Blood Angels Sternguard vs Codex Sternguard (5th Edition). Even though they are the same cost, they have completely different 'value' within BA vs Codex.

[DarkLink]

Why discourage its use? You're completely missing my point. A Sternguard Vet with a Storm Bolter is not worth 27pts. Not even close. Maybe 22, without the Special Ammo, maybe, though I think that's still pushing it. So if it were a trade, then it would be fair. Either get Bolters with Special Ammo, or just Storm Bolters. Special Ammo is still better, but you could at least justify taking the Storm Bolters.

But they are not worth 27pts. If you just handwave that, then WTF is the point system even for? That's like 101 game design, you try and write balanced rules, which in this case means pricing stuff appropriately. After an edition of literally no one ever taking Storm Bolters on Sternguard, ever, you would think GW would get a clue.

At least Techmarines are more reasonably priced, though I still think they're a bit too expensive.

[Tynskel]

Why discourage its use? You're completely missing my point. A Sternguard Vet with a Storm Bolter is not worth 27pts. Not even close. Maybe 22, without the Special Ammo, maybe, though I think that's still pushing it. So if it were a trade, then it would be fair. Either get Bolters with Special Ammo, or just Storm Bolters. Special Ammo is still better, but you could at least justify taking the Storm Bolters.

But they are not worth 27pts. If you just handwave that, then WTF is the point system even for? That's like 101 game design, you try and write balanced rules, which in this case means pricing stuff appropriately. After an edition of literally no one ever taking Storm Bolters on Sternguard, ever, you would think GW would get a clue.

At least Techmarines are more reasonably priced, though I still think they're a bit too expensive.

And you are missing my point: Point values are also set to discourage their use.
Look at Assault Cannons. They used to be cheap. Now they are expensive. It isn't so much 'balance', as also to discourage their use.

They are no longer 'worth it'. Is it because of balance? No. If they were 'balanced' you would see an equal distribution of all weapons.

Instead, everyone was using the assault cannons. GW wanted to sell something else. Oh my, the assault cannon is a little too expensive.



And, again, I disagree.
Storm Bolter Sternguard have their place. There have been instances where they were the perfect tool for the job. They don't fit all jobs, and for the most part, are limited in functionality, but there are some situations where they rock tha socks.


Additionally, I am not sure where you can even justify this as '101' game design. Warhammer 40k is a Complex System. You would need to use numerical modeling to attempt to be able to truly balanced armies. You would need to not only vary boundary conditions (board and army set up), but army lists (both opponents). You would need to do a sensitivity to all these simulations, and run monte carlo like simulations with perturbed conditions.

Someone could get a PhD in this, and still not really scratch the surface.

[dirkspair]

I think another reason why the storm bolter is expensive for stern guard units is to keep them true to their background. they are the uber tactical guys that sit back and shoot stuff or drop in and nuke things with their combi weapons. if they had storm bolters for cheap they would suddenly become a very viable assault unit, able to cause havoc onto horde units, something those guys are not really known for.

[Tynskel]

I think another reason why the storm bolter is expensive for stern guard units is to keep them true to their background. they are the uber tactical guys that sit back and shoot stuff or drop in and nuke things with their combi weapons. if they had storm bolters for cheap they would suddenly become a very viable assault able to cause havoc onto horde units, something those guys are not really known for.

And that is my point. You *can* give them storm bolters. But, GW *doesn't* want you to take them.

[DarkLink]

...that still makes zero sense.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Given that the new box comes with stormbolters and therefore the cost/benefit to GW for encouraging/discouraging them is 0 i have to agree that discouraging their use make no sense from a profit making POV.
HOWEVER I do see the argument that the unit is about having better BOLTERS not having stormbolters. In which case they probably should have just never had the option.
Personally though i feel that a 0pts swap-out would have made the debate between what to take very close indeed, but why you'd ever take one when you can strap a metla/flamer to your bolter and still assault after shooting something for 5pts more is beyond me.
10pts with special ammo or free without both make sense though.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I'm not sure why anyone would actually take the Storm Bolter - calling it an "upgrade" feels to me to be precisely incorrect - but the option's there in case you feel like modelling one, or you have a specific idea. Storm Bolters are kind of cool weapons, even if they're not as good as Special-Issue Ammo.

[Tynskel]

...that still makes zero sense.

I said, look at assault cannons. You'll see that it makes sense. Compare 4th to 5th editions. The assault cannon went up 15 points, and all of the sudden, no one uses assault cannons.

The option is 'there' but GW made it prohibitively expensive.

[bryanp319]

[QUOTE=Tynskel;349308]I said, look at assault cannons. You'll see that it makes sense. Compare 4th to 5th editions. The assault cannon went up 15 points, and all of the sudden, no one uses assault cannons.

Thats not why they don't get used anymore. Its because the rules for rending changed from 4th to 5th edition. rending used to autowound and not allow armour saves on rolls of 6 to hit now it does so on the roll to wound instead.

[dirkspair]

...that still makes zero sense.

If it makes sense to you or not is kinda irrelevant, isn't it? Those are the facts and we all will have to come to terms with it.

Personally I think it would be cool to say that a sternguard gets a storm bolter he must choose before the battle what sort of ammo it is armed with. so you could still use at least one kind of special ammo. But a unit of 10 churning out 20 shots at 30 inches with AP 4 with kraken rounds might be a bit OTT.

[Tynskel]

[QUOTE=Tynskel;349308]I said, look at assault cannons. You'll see that it makes sense. Compare 4th to 5th editions. The assault cannon went up 15 points, and all of the sudden, no one uses assault cannons.

Thats not why they don't get used anymore. Its because the rules for rending changed from 4th to 5th edition. rending used to autowound and not allow armour saves on rolls of 6 to hit now it does so on the roll to wound instead.

uh err, I believe you are thinking 6th Edition.

[DarkLink]

But a unit of 10 churning out 20 shots at 30 inches with AP 4 with kraken rounds might be a bit OTT.

People keep saying this, but people keep failing to realize how expensive Storm Bolter Sternguard are. Heck, Grey Knights get Str 5 Storm Bolters with power weapons and some psycannons thrown in there for ~25ppm, and that in and of itself was never the reason why GKs were OTT at the end of 5th, and they're certainly not nearly as good now in 6th.

[Tynskel]

People keep saying this, but people keep failing to realize how expensive Storm Bolter Sternguard are. Heck, Grey Knights get Str 5 Storm Bolters with power weapons and some psycannons thrown in there for ~25ppm, and that in and of itself was never the reason why GKs were OTT at the end of 5th, and they're certainly not nearly as good now in 6th.

We all understand that it is expensive. However, it doesn't need to be fixed. 1) GW wants you to use the Bolters, 2) The Storm Bolter is worth its points in certain circumstances.

[DarkLink]

Yes, it should be fixed. Even if GW does have some nefarious plan to prevent anyone from using Storm Bolter Sternguard models ever, which I seriously doubt because it's much more realistic to assume that GW simply copy/pasted that part, the idea that you should just leave an underpriced or overpriced option unused is stupid.

Also, you're literally the first person I've ever heard claim that Storm Bolters are worth it.

[dirkspair]

ok, we get it, you have it set in your head that storm bolters should be cheaper on stern guard.

now, back to the original purpose of this thread (at least headline wise)

i think it is a sad thing that rules keep flying around that mean different things in different codices.
example: rites of battle, in the BA and SM codex it is the leadership of the character with this rule for the whole army for morale and pinning tests. in the DA codex it is for any Ld based test, real handy against the doom of malantai and other things that target the Ld characteristic.

bolster defenses: BA dex, ruins only, SM and DA dex, any kind of area terrain. they just did a faq for the servo arm thing, it would not have killed them to streamline that somewhat, ey?

anything else? (hopefully we are done with that storm bolter stuff now)

[Tynskel]

Yes, it should be fixed. Even if GW does have some nefarious plan to prevent anyone from using Storm Bolter Sternguard models ever, which I seriously doubt because it's much more realistic to assume that GW simply copy/pasted that part, the idea that you should just leave an underpriced or overpriced option unused is stupid.

Also, you're literally the first person I've ever heard claim that Storm Bolters are worth it.

nope. there were others in this thread that have said they have made use of storm bolters to good effect. And, again, I said it works in limited engagements.

I don't think it needs to be fixed. Why are you so obsessed over the storm bolters being cheaper? Have you thought that the pricing is to discourage their use?

Again, I point to Assault Cannons, and changes in their pricing.