Centurion Load-Outs

[The Imperial Fist]

I really like the look and feel of the Centurions, but I can't decide on the weapon load-outs for them.

Have people been going for a full three grav-cannons for a rediculous amount of short range firepower, or have you been opting for lascannons? Or a mix and an omniscope? And do people think the missile launchers are worth an extra ten points each? Would be interested to hear what other people are thinking/doing.

[Nabterayl]

I don't have any firsthand experience with them, but if you're playing Imperial Fists, my gut says that lascannons and missile launchers are absolutely worth it (Tank Hunters is effectively +1S, mathematically - S10 lascannons and S9 missile launchers are pretty cool). I do feel like the grav-cannons are the most devastating arm loadout, though.

[kire]

For the points I'd be more inclined to take las cannons or missile launchers in a dev squad. You still get tank hunter if your IF and its a lot less points. Why pay for relentless when the weapons have such long range not to mention the advantages of cheap bullet catchers in the squad to keep your big guns safe

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Relentless Grav Cannon with rerolls to wound is too hard to resist.

[interrogator_chaplain]

If it were me I'd probably roll Imperial Fist Centurions with 1 guy going Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter, 2 going Lascannon, Missile Launcher.

[biffster666]

I purchased 2 boxes of the Tubbies for my brother last weekend (a very happy Smurf!) and he made three of each. Awesome models IMO. Easy to add magnets to swap between Las/Grav/Bolter on Dev and Flamer/Melta on the CC. I dig them both a lot, but my favorite are the CC with Grav Cannon Dev's a close second. Just remember to keep focusing on infantry/MC with them and let other stuff deal with vehicles unless you absolutely have to. Other than treating the Dev's like Dark Reapers with the Lascannon/ML using Skyshield/ADL the Land Raider just calls to me with every other load out regardless of squad type. Adding a Psyker to the squad is yummy for Telepathy and Biomancy(Endurance + Tubbies = WIN) and Tiggy just makes it all broken adding Divination(Hello 4++!). If you could somehow add Quicksilver from the GK to the mix I think all that awesomeness would melt my brain, heh heh I'm playing my bro Saturday Eldar vs. Ultrasmurfs.

[DarkLink]

Centurions have Grav Amps. Grav Amps mean you reroll already.

[wolflold]

I don't have any firsthand experience with them, but if you're playing Imperial Fists, my gut says that lascannons and missile launchers are absolutely worth it (Tank Hunters is effectively +1S, mathematically - S10 lascannons and S9 missile launchers are pretty cool). I do feel like the grav-cannons are the most devastating arm loadout, though.

Tank hunter is now re-roll armour penetration. The +1 str was 4th/5th edition rule, which is to bad :(.

[DarkLink]

But what he's saying is that they're mathematically very similar.

[Katharon]

3-Man Squad

Facing tanks: 2 x lascannon, 1 x grav gun, 3 x missile launchers

Facing Horde: 3 x heavy bolter, 3 x MLs (frags missiles, dont forget) [or] 3 x heavy bolter and 3 x hurricaine bolters

[The Imperial Fist]

Awesome, thanks. I do feel like a normal Devestator squad is the sensible way to go, but something about the Centurions screams IFs to me. Also I have a box sat here waiting to be constructed...

[Sly]

I would run them with Grav Amps all of the time, unless playing Imperial Fists or a bike army. Not that the Centurion unit itself is better with Grav Amps than with LC/ML, but you can get LC/ML elsewhere in the list. Relentless Grav weapons fill a niche (removing MCs, Terminators, and doing damage to heavily armored vehicles) better than anything else, so if you're not running Bikes with Gravity Guns, I want Gravity weapons on the Centurions. But if you have IF, the Tank Hunter bonus is too good to pass up, and if you're running Bikes, you can easily put the Gravity weapons on the Bikes, and save the Centurions for long-range shooting so that they face less incoming firepower.

[The Imperial Fist]

Aye, I am starting to think as IF going for Las and Missile is the logical way to go.

[Cadian122]

Aye, I am starting to think as IF going for Las and Missile is the logical way to go.

I have Las and Missile in my army, (Squad of three). My next squad of three will have Heavy Bolters and Missile, for the hoard units, but it can be used against light vehicles at a pinch. Gotta love the Tank Hunters.

Don't forget the Omniscope on the Sergeant, gives you the opportunity to take out 2 tanks in 1 turn (if you're lucky), and has the added bonus of you actually wanting night fight in the first turn.

[Stone Edwards]

Going IF with 2 las cannons and 1 grav cannon on the Sargent does sounds pretty sweet. That way if you have a rip tide or something that needs to die the Sargent can split fire at it and the las cannons can try to take out a vehicle.

[biffster666]

Had to move up the game with my brother to this afternoon because of a payroll fiasco issue that two of my people got caught up in. Good times, not!

2k Smurfs vs Eldar, and he rolled Tiggy out in a Crusader with 5 CC Tubbies. He also had a modified his command squad on bikes with THSS. Relic/Crusade combo scenario. He got first turn, and I don't know if I've seen him roll that bad in turn 1 before. Failing 3/3 SS invulnerables invulnerables and the 4++ on his Land Raider the last shot I had turn one at it. Blew it up with a B-Lance and I didn't really appreciate how lucky I was until it was turn six and he still had two of the five with Tiggy still c*#k blocking the Relic from Turn 2-6. He failed one 2+ the whole game and I was pouring fire into them trying to push them off or at least away from the Relic. Forewarning/Perfect timing was just evil with the twin linked melta's an his bubble of death around the Relic. I had to keep picking away at the squads he tried to take the Relic with. Got lucky and was able to keep picking away until the game ended turn 6. Even rolling just terrible I only got the W because of First Blood and Line breaker. It's like trying to push little elephants around, little elephants with an 18" bubble of death and that Tiggy...oh that Tiggy. I'll get to him, heh heh

Considering he was on the defensive turn one even though he went first was rough, but the boys in blue are ready!

Forgot to add that I had Doom on his Tubbies 3 out of 6 turns and he still wouldn't move off the Relic!!!

[Vangrail]

Grav cannons and hurricane or heavy bolter hurricane for me. Grav cannons have done wonders on infantry or armor. Heavy bolters and hurricane bolters have done well too just lacking the ability to deal with armor. tried las cannons once cant say i will again. But the omni scope with grav weapons did well. I run three centurions right now. first 2 shot at a land raider they wrecked it, then the sarg with grav cannons split fired at the squad that was in the wreck he killed 3 terminators!

[Nabterayl]

Grav cannons and hurricane or heavy bolter hurricane for me. Grav cannons have done wonders on infantry or armor. Heavy bolters and hurricane bolters have done well too just lacking the ability to deal with armor. tried las cannons once cant say i will again. But the omni scope with grav weapons did well. I run three centurions right now. first 2 shot at a land raider they wrecked it, then the sarg with grav cannons split fired at the squad that was in the wreck he killed 3 terminators!
That is awesome. Sergeant shouldn't have been able to do that unless it was in a subsequent turn, though; split fire attacks still have to be declared simultaneously. Discussed that issue (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?29630-Using-Split-fire-to-destroy-vehicle-then-disembarked-unit) pretty thoroughly earlier this year.

[Vangrail]

oh......well now i know....now i feel bad......

[Katharon]

Yeah, that whole issue has been dealt with quite well already with the fact that Space Wolf Long Fang squads have had split-fire for over three years and it is the same rule -- so yeah, no popping a vehicle and then trying to use split-fire to then shoot whoever was inside it. Doesn't happen that way.

[GravesDisease]

Rather surprisingly, I just worked that even with IF centurions grav cannons will put more HP off vehicles than lascannons at any AV. The benefit you get from TLLC are the chance for a lucky pen, but you do lose flexibility in targets you can realistically threaten.
http://i.imgur.com/LM0uq1E.jpg

[Lord Krungharr]

I saw 2 units in 2 different games in action today, and the grav amp/cannon load out did kill some Necrons pretty efficiently. The las/missile load out is pretty predictable, they just killed some Ork Boyz while I was watching (like most other shooting weapons).

I think if they could be put in a Drop Pod they'd be much more effective than on foot however, though the las/missiles on a Skyshield would be pretty tough to erase! I really can't see the assault versions working too well, basically Mutilators, though at least the Centurions strike at Initiative 4 right? Just got to get them there and not die first. Vs. MCs they're toast however, but they can't be Vector Struck to death :)

[kire]

Rather surprisingly, I just worked that even with IF centurions grav cannons will put more HP off vehicles than lascannons at any AV. The benefit you get from TLLC are the chance for a lucky pen, but you do lose flexibility in targets you can realistically threaten.
http://i.imgur.com/LM0uq1E.jpg

The rules for grav weapons specify that the roll is taken instead of an armor penetration roll so I don't believe tank hunter affects it

[Katharon]

Tank Hunter does not add anything to Grav Weapon rolls, because its not a penetrating hit.

[DarkLink]

Again, Centurions already reroll with grav amps, and devs can't really take grav weapons. So it's a bit of a moot point.

[Deadlift]

I was thinking of 5 centurions on an aegis defence line with the sarge on the lascannon, the 4 main guys with grav and the sarge with a lascannon of his own. With Decimator protocols and the omniscope the Sarge can snipe away with both Lascannons and the others at other targets. All with missile launchers too. Obviously a bit pricy points wise but would make a fearsome gun line.

[Katharon]

You guys need to keep in mind that grav-cannons are only 24" range...just keep that in mind.

[GravesDisease]

You've missed the point of my post entirely. Earlier in this thread people are saying that it's less attractive to get the grav cannon since any benefit you get from tank hunter on the unit, if imperial fist, is lost by choosing that weapon option. What I had shown was that even though you get no tank hunter based benefits off of it, it's still solid AV.

Also I don't see why you'd keep them behind a defence line. They are intended to be mobile -that's why you pay a premium for them above normal devastators.

[biffster666]

They can all be mobile, but only the Grav Cannon Dev Tubbies 'need' to be mobile in order to stay a threat. On foot, they are by far the easiest load out for an opponent to avoid, especially one of the faster armies. Even if you decide to swap in ML's you're going to stay in the 24" range of the Grav cannons as much as possible or your rate of fire goes into the toliet. As long as the Hurricane Bolters's are swapped out for the ML I don't think the Land Raider is a 'need' using the Heavy Bolters/ML (36" and 48"), and definitely not if you go with the Lascannon/ML (both 48"). With those two load outs + the Omniscope for Night Vision/Split Fire the Tubbies can use their range/night vision/split fire to provide long range fire support. They might never/rarely have to move. Add the Skyshield (it's so popular!! hehe) with three Typhoons and Tiggy(Perfect Timing for Tubbies, Prescience for Typhoons!) for about 750pts of serious reach out and touch someone fire power, all with a 4++. Not bad at all IMO if you're putting together a a 1750+ point force.

Regardless, they're all very kewl and useful IMO. :D

[Ursa]

Great thread guys. I'm putting together my first three. Plan on getting another two (last one will be a counts as Master of the Forge or Chapter Master in T Armor). The arms are easily magnitized so choice of arms is situational. My question is cost of missiles vs h bolters. At 310 points for 3 guys with lascannons and missile launchers. I can get two predator annhilators for that.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd say the Missile Launchers are a must have upgrade. They're just too flexible to turn down! They add range and anti-infantry to Grav-Cannons, Anti-Infantry and Anti-Tank back up to Lascannons, and Anti-Tank capability with Anti-infantry back up to Heavy Bolters.

Always a use for them!

[Cadian122]

Great thread guys. I'm putting together my first three. Plan on getting another two (last one will be a counts as Master of the Forge or Chapter Master in T Armor). The arms are easily magnitized so choice of arms is situational. My question is cost of missiles vs h bolters. At 310 points for 3 guys with lascannons and missile launchers. I can get two predator annhilators for that.

it's 290 for 3 with Lascannons, Missile Launchers, and an omniscope. I play Imperial Fists, and I fielded that unit, they did brilliantly. Don't forget that they get chapter tactics, unlike the predators, so unless you play Iron Hands, they would edge out the 2 predator annihilators for that alone (especially the Tank Hunters and +1 to the building damage chart for being an Imperial fist).

anyway, that's my 5p

[Chris*ta]

Grav cannons and hurricane or heavy bolter hurricane for me. Grav cannons have done wonders on infantry or armor. Heavy bolters and hurricane bolters have done well too just lacking the ability to deal with armor. tried las cannons once cant say i will again. But the omni scope with grav weapons did well. I run three centurions right now. first 2 shot at a land raider they wrecked it, then the sarg with grav cannons split fired at the squad that was in the wreck he killed 3 terminators!


That is awesome. *Sergeant shouldn't have been able to do that unless it was in a subsequent turn, though; split fire attacks still have to be declared simultaneously. *Discussed that issue (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?29630-Using-Split-fire-to-destroy-vehicle-then-disembarked-unit) pretty thoroughly earlier this year.


Yeah, that whole issue has been dealt with quite well already with the fact that Space Wolf Long Fang squads have had split-fire for over three years and it is the same rule -- so yeah, no popping a vehicle and then trying to use split-fire to then shoot whoever was inside it. Doesn't happen that way.

I thought that issue was resolved when Super Heavies could fire each of their weapons individually. Though I believe you can announce targets for each weapon once you're done firing the last one. Not sure though ...


I'd say the Missile Launchers are a must have upgrade. They're just too flexible to turn down! They add range and anti-infantry to Grav-Cannons, Anti-Infantry and Anti-Tank back up to Lascannons, and Anti-Tank capability with Anti-infantry back up to Heavy Bolters.

Always a use for them!

Hang on, doesn't the grav-amp allow you to reroll both to-hit and to-wound? Because this means that grav-cannons with with grav-amps are reasonably effective against infantry, even lightly armoured infantry. And a frag missile isn't that useful as anti-infantry.

Personally, I'd rather go with grav-cannons with grav-amps and hurricane bolters across the squad. The only downsides are that it's the shortest range option, and that you can't fire overwatch, but they may as well be up-front attracting attention, and a squad of even 3 has so many shots that overwatch would probably be redonkulous OP.

Also, not many people seem to like the Assault Centurions, thoughts?

[Fenrisian1]

I have to disagree, the Las/ML combos are a nice idea, but for their money, Grav Cannons/Hurricane Bolters still break any target. With even a 3 man squad you get 15 shots at BS 4. On average you get at least 10 hits. Even against vehicles, you will get 1-2 hit(s) statistically, BEFORE you Grav Amp.

Then on that second set you will likely get 1-2 more. Which auto wrecks most vehicles from the Hull points alone (Not getting into the Grav Immobilze hull point thing here).

So ok anything with a 4+ save is pretty much shredded, and if it does have a 5+ save you have hurricane bolters to tear it up.

Now, I know a lot of people keep bringing up the whole "you only have 24" range hurr hurr hurr", but that doesn't really matter. March them right up the middle of the board and you effectively cover a a 2' radius circle. With two squads you can cover most of a 4x8 table.

If you are worried about them getting dead, ally in a DA Libby with a powerfield gen and boom 4++, psychic powers and a unit that will slowly annihlate everything on the board.

And if you want to get real crazy, toss them in a Stormraven and laugh as they go wherever you need them to be. Sure it's a points investment, but for their lethality... I think it's well worth it.

[Eduboy94]

I play White Scars, but want to play Centurions, what would be the best build?

[Spamthulhu]

I thought that issue was resolved when Super Heavies could fire each of their weapons individually. Though I believe you can announce targets for each weapon once you're done firing the last one. Not sure though ...



Hang on, doesn't the grav-amp allow you to reroll both to-hit and to-wound? Because this means that grav-cannons with with grav-amps are reasonably effective against infantry, even lightly armoured infantry. And a frag missile isn't that useful as anti-infantry.

Personally, I'd rather go with grav-cannons with grav-amps and hurricane bolters across the squad. The only downsides are that it's the shortest range option, and that you can't fire overwatch, but they may as well be up-front attracting attention, and a squad of even 3 has so many shots that overwatch would probably be redonkulous OP.

Also, not many people seem to like the Assault Centurions, thoughts?

You have to get the assault centurions into combat and hammernators sort of handle that role better than the cents. They seem good at what they do but they have to get a serious investment to get them into combat unlike terminators that can deep strike on the cheap at least.

I found the cents with lascannon/ML's to be very solid at their job. They took care of business. I would like to try them with grav guns one game but right now my only opponent is another space marine player using dark angels so it seems kind of cheesy to pull out a perfect anti unit especially when he is limited on the models he can field.

[Chris*ta]

I would like to try them with grav guns one game but right now my only opponent is another space marine player using dark angels so it seems kind of cheesy to pull out a perfect anti unit especially when he is limited on the models he can field.

Poor little SM (well, DAs, same diff) player has only 3+ models. And they now they die really easily. Now he knows what it's like to play Eldar! :D

[Chris*ta]

Poor little SM (well, DAs, same diff) player has only 3+ models. And they now they die really easily. Now he knows what it's like to play Eldar! :D

Okay, I din't necessarily express that the best, it just seems a little funny for you to worry about taking one unit that is effective against some opponents, when SMs have bolters as standard which splat about half the Codexes out there ...

[rxcky]

I have run Ultramarines with Grav Cannon/Amps and Tigerius in a Lanraider, turn one you can pretty much get yourself in position to hit most things. Add in the fact that you will have re-rolls to hit, then very likely a 4++ to keep them alive and a possible ignore cover or re-roll armour saves for the ones you've wounded is pretty much a dead target turn one, get rid of those pesky wraithknight/riptides etc. Couple that with the re-rolls to wound/penetrate armour and theres a very high chance your gonna roll 2 6's which until they clear that one up will trash most vehicles.

Allied with Imperial Fists with las and missile on a skyshield for the tank hunter is nice to have as well.

The CC ones are ok, the melta/flamer on the charge is nice but TH SS terminators will probably last longer in close combat.

They can be nice in a white scars army with Khan as well though, stick em in a Landraider and your transport gets that extra scout move that can get them that little bit closer to make the most of those Grave Cannons.

[Mr Mystery]

On the subject of 24" range, given how pokey the Grav Cannons are, that's one hell of a keep away range for your opponent!

[Spamthulhu]

Okay, I din't necessarily express that the best, it just seems a little funny for you to worry about taking one unit that is effective against some opponents, when SMs have bolters as standard which splat about half the Codexes out there ...

Grav cannons would tear him up since he has to field terminators right now to play a legal army. He only has a limited model selection. It would be like you building an all flamer/heavy bolter/assault cannon army when you know your orc player friend only has basic infantry.

I don't like building a complete counter list designed to just beat his army.

[Chris*ta]

Grav cannons would tear him up since he has to field terminators right now to play a legal army. He only has a limited model selection. It would be like you building an all flamer/heavy bolter/assault cannon army when you know your orc player friend only has basic infantry.

I don't like building a complete counter list designed to just beat his army.

I understand ... I was poking fun, to an extent.

[biffster666]

On the subject of 24" range, given how pokey the Grav Cannons are, that's one hell of a keep away range for your opponent!

The crowd used to rolling around with T4 3+ standard tend to get a "man, I gotta take a #&$^' look on their face. Necrons don't like them either, but after that it becomes more of a crap shoot.


Now, I know a lot of people keep bringing up the whole "you only have 24" range hurr hurr hurr", but that doesn't really matter. March them right up the middle of the board and you effectively cover a a 2' radius circle. With two squads you can cover most of a 4x8 table.

Mike Tyson said it best...

"Everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face."

Regardless of unit, the range of the different weapons is always part of the equation when determining what roll it will fill.


Also, not many people seem to like the Assault Centurions, thoughts?

I think they are even more awesome than Dev Tubbies!!! I also think they are equally as viable as THSS, just different. THSS have 1W, an invulnerable save, and unwieldy weapon. Tubbies no invulnerable save, but T5 2W, and a S9 AP2 melee weapon. Tubbies have ranged weapons, THSS don't. Yes, THSS can deep strike, but it's dangerous, and I can't remember the last game I didn't see them in a Land Raider (crusader usually) or a Stormraven. 10 (10W) THSS 450pts as is, 6 (12W) Tubbies 370pts as is. Tubbies +1 attack charging THSS regardless, not so for THSS charging Tubbies without them already being in CC.

How about...Tubbies are Imperial Meganobs, but with melee instead of unwieldy CC :D

[Katharon]

Assault Centurions are a waste of money and a FoC slot for your army. Assault Terminators will hit harder, for cheaper, and actually have a fricken invulnerable save (I'm still personally angry that the Centurion didn't get at least some sort of Invul save). Sure they're one point of T lower, T4 instead of T5, and sure they have two wounds, but Assault Terminators have a wider range of abilities and gear to equip them with than the *****-drill armed Assault Centurions.

[Mr Mystery]

Yet Assault Terminators tend to suck against higher AV things.

Armourbane at S9? Yes please Santa! S9 AP2, without unwieldy? HELL YES!

Stand alone, Assault Centurions are better against Orky Dredds and Kans, and a wide variety of Nid gribbles, on account they can get in and get the job done before the enemy can swing. Buddy them up with a sneaky Grav shot, and they can tackle Hive Tyrants and their equivalents in double quick time, again, before the enemy gets a punch in.

Terminators....not so much. They both have their uses, and those uses are different.

[GravesDisease]

Anti walker you say? At 3 units they would have 9 attacks on the charge. Is that enough (50% hit) to avoid them getting munched for a unit a fraction of their cost?

[Katharon]

Yet Assault Terminators tend to suck against higher AV things.

Armourbane at S9? Yes please Santa! S9 AP2, without unwieldy? HELL YES!

Stand alone, Assault Centurions are better against Orky Dredds and Kans, and a wide variety of Nid gribbles, on account they can get in and get the job done before the enemy can swing. Buddy them up with a sneaky Grav shot, and they can tackle Hive Tyrants and their equivalents in double quick time, again, before the enemy gets a punch in.

Terminators....not so much. They both have their uses, and those uses are different.

Dude, Thunderhammers or Chainfists (which have Armorbane as well) tear through all vehicles. Also, two words: Storm Shield. I can't count the number of times I've tanked out against giant bugs and defilers alike with TH/SS assault terminators.

[Deadlift]

Quick question, anyone thought of using the assault centurions in kill team ? Or should I just stick to Sternguard ?

[Mr Mystery]

Dude, Thunderhammers or Chainfists (which have Armorbane as well) tear through all vehicles. Also, two words: Storm Shield. I can't count the number of times I've tanked out against giant bugs and defilers alike with TH/SS assault terminators.

Stormshield is great. Being able to push over a Dreadnought before it wallops you, thus negating the overall need for a Stormshield in HTH is betterer in my opinion.

Anti-Walker....I4, S9, AP2, 10 attacks on the charge (Vet Sarge has another one). Most walkers are AV12. S9 will do them a treat and no mistake.

And you can always meltagun it before you charge to boot, doing even more damage.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Stormshield is great. Being able to push over a Dreadnought before it wallops you, thus negating the overall need for a Stormshield in HTH is betterer in my opinion.

Anti-Walker....I4, S9, AP2, 10 attacks on the charge (Vet Sarge has another one). Most walkers are AV12. S9 will do them a treat and no mistake.

And you can always meltagun it before you charge to boot, doing even more damage.

You mean AS it wallops you. IF the dread has still got it's P-fist/Seismic Hammer/Chainfist it CAN (not will by any means) drop 2 of your centurions no worries. If it's a venerable then it's even more likely, if it's Ironclad it COULD (again may not) kill all three.

Hold that up to our SS termies and we see that the losses will be less, but the result for poor old clunky the dreadnaught will be the same.

VS I3 things like deffdreads and defilers though it's no contest, Centurions win hands down.

[Katharon]

Dude...Dreadnoughts are the same initiative as Centurions...so, they'll be swinging at the same time. You don't get that much of an advantage. In fact, except for IG, Tau, and some Orks -- you won't be swinging faster than any other models. It's true that it *is* nice to swing at regular initiative -- but that doesn't outweigh the fact that Centurions are not equipped to be a good assault unit -- due to the fact that they don't have an invulnerable save.

Sorry, but an invul save is a better investment than any siege drills or tag-along-meltas.

[Mr Mystery]

Dude...Dreadnoughts are the same initiative as Centurions...so, they'll be swinging at the same time. You don't get that much of an advantage. In fact, except for IG, Tau, and some Orks -- you won't be swinging faster than any other models. It's true that it *is* nice to swing at regular initiative -- but that doesn't outweigh the fact that Centurions are not equipped to be a good assault unit -- due to the fact that they don't have an invulnerable save.

Sorry, but an invul save is a better investment than any siege drills or tag-along-meltas.

Which is why you have a unit nearby with a Grav weapon, to concuss the target.

Chainfists are quite saucy, but arguably in the wrong Terminator squad. TH are useful, but struggle to perform against AV14 and higher (if we count Apocaplypse).

The drills have their role. Now it's all a matter of personal preference. The invulnerable save doesn't bother me as much as it might some. For instance, Terminators need it due to their preferred HTH weapons slowing them down, and their preferred targets hitting very hard indeed. But, let's say, Meganobs. Assault Centurions have an edge, as they instant death on every hit, and swing before the Meganobz.

To say Assault Centurions are useless isn't really truthful. I'm not saying your preference for Assault Terminators is wrong, just pointing out they have subtley different roles to play.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

To say Assault Centurions are useless isn't really truthful. I'm not saying your preference for Assault Terminators is wrong, just pointing out they have subtley different roles to play.

Quite so, each has their role, and they are different. I wouldn't send Assault centurions anywhere near something I4+ and AP2, because they'd get shanked, that's what the assault termie is for.
However I would send Assault centurions after anything I3 or less or that can't fight back (like tanks and buildings) because that is their (to use the newfangled parlance) "wheel-house".

[Mr Mystery]

There is also the general inflexibility of Terminator Assault Squads (not to be confused with your standard Termie Squad, which can mix it up with just about anyone if needs be). They do HTH extremely well, but that's it. No ranged weapons.

Assault Centurions however can have Hurricaine Bolters, with Flamers, and then charge. That's a horrible amount of firepower to chuck into any given squad. With split fire from the Omni-Scope, equip one with Meltaguns, and pop a transport. Everyone else then gives the passengers some Dakka, and possibly a light flambe courtesy of the flamers, following up with a charge to deliver the coup de grace if need be.

Do they need a Landraider to help out? Yeah I'd say so. But hey, you're still getting a Land Raider in your list, which is no bad thing.

Overall, they are more flexible. Yes there are things where Terminators with TH/SS are preferable, without a doubt. But Centurions have a wider range of applications.

Now, against Chapter Specific Terminator squads? Like Deathwing or Wolf Guard? Yeah, they do pale in the face of their flexiblity. But within their own codex, they have a role to fill, and do so admirably.

[Katharon]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. But CC centurions are just never going to be able to match up to Assault Terminators.

[Cadian122]

Assault Centurions however can have Hurricaine Bolters, with Flamers, and then charge. That's a horrible amount of firepower to chuck into any given squad. With split fire from the Omni-Scope, equip one with Meltaguns, and pop a transport. Everyone else then gives the passengers some Dakka, and possibly a light flambe courtesy of the flamers, following up with a charge to deliver the coup de grace if need be.

You declare shooting for the squad at the same time, so you can't pop the transport, then split fire at the squad inside - unfortunately.

Someone mentioned earlier that they take Hurricane bolters and Grav Cannons on their devastator Centurions, Hurricane Bolters are pretty nice, but I think they would be better if the unit could overwatch. Hurricane Bolters are only really decent at 12" range, and I really don't want my Centurions at that range if they can avoid it. I'm still not sold on Grav weaponry, it hasn't really done much for me, but the jury is still out. I have one unit (the aforementioned Las/ML combo), my second unit of Devastator Centurions will be Heavy Bolter/Missile Launchers, so I can wipe out a unit a turn (most of the time) with weight of firepower, but I still retain some kind of anti-tank (Tank Hunters as they're Imperial Fists), so they can pop anything weaker than a Rhino, all for 220 points.
Am I not the only one who thinks the Omniscope is a no-brainer for the sergeant? What's that? of course, I'll be more than happy to kill your riptide in the first turn even though it's night fighting... (for example, insert whatever your current pet hate is)

[biffster666]

Assault Centurions are a waste of money and a FoC slot for your army. Assault Terminators will hit harder, for cheaper, and actually have a fricken invulnerable save (I'm still personally angry that the Centurion didn't get at least some sort of Invul save). Sure they're one point of T lower, T4 instead of T5, and sure they have two wounds, but Assault Terminators have a wider range of abilities and gear to equip them with than the *****-drill armed Assault Centurions.

In your opinion Assualt Centurions are a waste of money and a FoC slot. TH hit harder, are cheaper, and have a fricking invulnerable save. TH=S8 SD=S9, THSS 45pts each, Assualt Tubbies 45pts each so they hit harder and are cheaper? You've got your fricken Invulnerable save. Invulnerable Save/Unwieldy vs. No Invulnerable/Melee, darn those tradeoffs! Assualt Tubbies don't need a second CC option. S9 AP2 melee with armourbane gravy is a one-stop-shop. IMO, that extra point of toughness alone is good, but with an additional wound, yyyeeeaaahhhh bbbooyyyy! Assualt Termies have how many ranged attacks? THSS can DS and Tubbies can't. That's not a big selling point IMO, and if you don't DS the THSS 'need' the Land Raider just as much (more?). Stock Assualt Tubbies definitely have the advantage against vehicles/buildings, and it becomes no contest if you swap flamer for melta.

If you think THSS are 'better' and Assualt Tubbies are a waste of $/FoC knock yourself out purchasing/fielding only THSS. I think they're both viable and would switch things up regularly to keep people guessing, but that's just my opinion.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. But CC centurions are just never going to be able to match up to Assault Terminators.

I see what you did there! heh heh


Am I not the only one who thinks the Omniscope is a no-brainer for the sergeant? What's that? of course, I'll be more than happy to kill your riptide in the first turn even though it's night fighting... (for example, insert whatever your current pet hate is)

With the Dev Tubbies it's very tasty, especially with LC/ML at long range. :D

[Chris*ta]

The more I think about it, the more I think comparing Assault Centurions to Assault Terminators is unfair: It's much more reasonable to compare them to regular Terminators.

They're both capable of short-mid-range shooting, they're both quite capable of splatting quite tough things in hand to hand, and they both have a 2+ save with a mediocre/non-existent invulnerable save.

Now it's just a matter of doing pros and cons for each.

And it's worth remembering that they're in different FOC slots.

Oh, and one last thought: Centurions can take frags, that's one of the things that Terminators have always missed.

[biffster666]

I'm out of town right now so I don't have my SM codex handy, but I believe it's only Dev Tubbies that are in a different FoC slot (Heavy). Assualt Tubbies and both Termies are Elites.

IMO, At least one of the reasons Tubbies don't get the same 5+ invulnerable as Termies is regular Termies would rarely be seen on the table(especially since Dev Tubbies are a Heavy) and it would be even worse for LC Termies.

At best THSS are going at the same time, so they could care less about assualting into cover. I haven't seen a LC Termie squad in I don't know how long. I see LC on Vanguard Vets, not Termies. Not saying they aren't used(are they?), just very rare and now with Assualt Tubbies having a S9 AP2 Armourbane melee weapon I don't know if I'll ever see LC Termies again. Kind of a bummer, I've always liked the 'look' of LC Termies far more than THSS. Much 'kewler' than THSS, RG know this :D

I think they did a good job adding Tubbies to the mix while at the same time THSS and regular Termies are still just as viable a choice. SM's have several viable options in the Elites slot now which is a good thing.

[Luckee22]

It seems to me that the Imperial Fists would get the least mileage from their Centurions. The twin-linked aspect of all their base weapons is redundant with the IF bolter re-roll on 1's. And the missile/lascannon load-out is so points-exorbitant and squishy it seems wasteful considering tank hunters works just as well with Devastators.

The grav-cannon/amp is excellent and eats units but also makes the unit an even greater bullet/assault magnet and they'd go down quick. Ultimately, they're going to take the place of one of the other big punch units and I don't see the need for them.

[Chris*ta]

I'm out of town right now so I don't have my SM codex handy, but I believe it's only Dev Tubbies that are in a different FoC slot (Heavy). Assualt Tubbies and both Termies are Elites.

I don't have a copy myself (very poor ATM :(). Can someone with a copy confirm the FOC slot for Assault Centurions?


Not saying they aren't used(are they?), just very rare and now with Assualt Tubbies having a S9 AP2 Armourbane melee weapon I don't know if I'll ever see LC Termies again. Kind of a bummer, I've always liked the 'look' of LC Termies far more than THSS. Much 'kewler' than THSS, RG know this :D

It used to be that Blood Angels might play LC termies, but since the change to Furious Charge ... There's no point there either. At least LCs are cheaper than THSSs now.

And speaking of looks, how much cooler were the old pattern of Lightning Claws?

[kire]

I don't have a copy myself (very poor ATM :(). Can someone with a copy confirm the FOC slot for Assault Centurions?


Devastator centurions = Heavy

Assault centurions and all terminators = Elite

[biffster666]

Those T4 1W 3+ Dev's are more squishy than those Tubbies at T5 2W 2+. Wouldn't the IF Tubbies also get a third re-roll if the second roll was a one? Doesn't seem wasteful, but my Dark Reapers will still dig reaching out 48" with lots of AP3 shots to squish those Devastor's instead of the ongoing *ping* *ping* *ping* sound shooting at Tubbies with their 2+. Tubbies IMO will last longer to take advantage of Tank Hunter than those regular Dev's will. From the 6th Ed. SM thread...

Regular Dev squad. 10 man Regular Dev squad with 4 LC is 220pts. A 3 man Dev Tubbies LC/ML + scope is 290pts

Regular Dev's squad is 10W, T4, 3+, 4 LC no rerolls vs. 3 Tubbies 6W, T5, 2+, 3 twin linked LC, 3ML, Slow and Purposeful, Splitfire/Night Vision

I'm down with THT (Tank Hunter Tubbies) :D


And speaking of looks, how much cooler were the old pattern of Lightning Claws?

I dig them both actually. I'm going to miss seeing them on Termies for sure :(

[DWest]

Wouldn't the IF Tubbies also get a third re-roll if the second roll was a one?
You may not re-roll a dice that has already been re-rolled once (BRB pg 5).

Also, keep in mind the Devs can get Flakk missiles, the Turbonators can't. And, while yes they're a higher T and Sv, you lose 2 shots after taking 2 wounds, but *if* the Devs are stacked correctly, they can take 5 wounds before losing any combat effectiveness. Lastly, the 10 Devs can be combat-squad'ed to cover two parts of the field at once. Each unit has its purpose on the field, they're not totally interchangeable.

[Katharon]

Here's the thing with the Centurion and what I see as the best possible way to field them:

a) They don't have an invulnerable save, meaning that a lot of the big scary things that Assault Centurions might go after are going to undoubtedly eat them in their nice shiny warsuits. Nothing about the Assault version can one-up what the Assault Terminators can already do better and cheaper model for model.

b) Centurions have "Slow and Purposeful," so they don't get to run, Overwatch, or make a sweeping advance. (Another thing that is a disfavor for the assault version). With that in mind we continue onto...

c) Distance. Long range. That is where the Devastator Centurion shines with its ability to fire two weapons and take the omniscope (split-fire) on the sergeant. Equipping your Devastator Centurions with MLs and Lascannons (I would take a unit of six, so that'll be 560 points) and taking a full unit of six, gives you 12 heavy weapons -- as many as 3 Devastator squads -- that are twin-linked (except for the MLs) and if taken with Imperial Fist armies, are deadly as can be.

If you don't take them in their Devastator form and with them set up for long range fighting, then you're effectively wasting your points. Sure, the heavy bolter/hurricane bolter set-up is nice for mowing down infantry; but a true Devastator Centurion squad should keep itself to destroying everything that moves on treads or hovers on jets; let your troop choices and assault units handle the rest.

[Aegwymourn]

I think I am inclined to agree with the final point Karharon brings up, they are used to maximize your FOC selections. Along with the bonuses from the Omni-Scope (having played Tau you can never underestimate the ability to have built in Night Vision).

I think the Assault version is mostly rubbish. As everyone has pointed out, anything they'd want to assault will probably bypass their armor saves. There is a small selection of random things they'd be better at assaulting than TH/SS Terminators, but there are so many other things they are better at than the Centurions.

[Chris*ta]

If you don't take them in their Devastator form and with them set up for long range fighting, then you're effectively wasting your points. Sure, the heavy bolter/hurricane bolter set-up is nice for mowing down infantry; but a true Devastator Centurion squad should keep itself to destroying everything that moves on treads or hovers on jets; let your troop choices and assault units handle the rest.

I think you're not taking into account how effective the grav cannon, grav amp (and hurricane bolter) is against light infantry, heavy infantry and monstrous creatures.


I think the Assault version is mostly rubbish. As everyone has pointed out, anything they'd want to assault will probably bypass their armor saves. There is a small selection of random things they'd be better at assaulting than TH/SS Terminators, but there are so many other things they are better at than the Centurions.

I'm repeating myself, but I think it's fairer to compare Assault Centurions to regular Terminators, because they have far more in common, but the Centurions are better at shooting, fight at their initiative and can have frags.

Whether either regular Terminators or Assault Centurions are worth taking in this Codex remains to be seen, of course ...

[DarkLink]

Regular Terminators really haven't changed, you're not going to see much of them. They're still overpriced for what you get.

[Katharon]

I think you're not taking into account how effective the grav cannon, grav amp (and hurricane bolter) is against light infantry...

*blink*

The grav cannon being effective against light infantry? You want to think about that one again?

And yeah, the grav weaponry is cool, salvo weapons are pretty nice -- however the range is nothing; especially since in a warsuit which can get minced without an invulnerable save in close-combat. They *need* to stick to long range.

[Chris*ta]

Devastator centurions = Heavy

Assault centurions and all terminators = Elite

Thanks for that, Kire.


Regular Terminators really haven't changed, you're not going to see much of them. They're still overpriced for what you get.

Yeah, I suspected as much. It doesn't answer the question of whether Assault Centurions are worth taking ... I think their ability at short-range shooting *might* be useful.

[Chris*ta]

*blink*

The grav cannon being effective against light infantry? You want to think about that one again?

And yeah, the grav weaponry is cool, salvo weapons are pretty nice -- however the range is nothing; especially since in a warsuit which can get minced without an invulnerable save in close-combat. They *need* to stick to long range.

With a grav amp,it's relatively effective against light infantry, about as effective as two heavy bolters.

Although it's more expensive, in an all-comers list, it's a good option. And the hurricane bolter is more effective against light infantry (though not useless against heavy infantry) so overall, the Centurion is good against all three (including Monstrous Creatures).

And remember the interaction between Slow and Purposeful and Salvo weapons.

[Katharon]

With a grav amp,it's relatively effective against light infantry, about as effective as two heavy bolters.

Although it's more expensive, in an all-comers list, it's a good option. And the hurricane bolter is more effective against light infantry (though not useless against heavy infantry) so overall, the Centurion is good against all three (including Monstrous Creatures).

And remember the interaction between Slow and Purposeful and Salvo weapons.

Do you realize how dumb this sounds? The light infantry part. Orks and Guardsmen in particular -- you'll be wounding on a 6 and a 5 because that's their armor save. The grav weaponry is for taking out heavy infantry like terminators or monsterous creatures with 2 and 3+ saves and really friggen high toughness values. Anti-mob work is not in its job description.

[Chris*ta]

Do you realize how dumb this sounds? The light infantry part. Orks and Guardsmen in particular -- you'll be wounding on a 6 and a 5 because that's their armor save. The grav weaponry is for taking out heavy infantry like terminators or monsterous creatures with 2 and 3+ saves and really friggen high toughness values. Anti-mob work is not in its job description.

Doesn't the grav-amp give a reroll on to-wound? 5+ with a reroll is better than 50%.

I'm not saying that it's ideal against light infantry, what I'm saying that a Centurion with that and a hurricane bolter is relatively effective against light infantry, and a good choice is an all-comers list.

And could you avoid comments like "Do you realise how dumb this sounds?"

[DarkLink]

*blink*

The grav cannon being effective against light infantry? You want to think about that one again?

And yeah, the grav weaponry is cool, salvo weapons are pretty nice -- however the range is nothing; especially since in a warsuit which can get minced without an invulnerable save in close-combat. They *need* to stick to long range.

I normally play Draigowing. Basically my whole army is 24" ranged shooting. Yes, you can footslog and still shoot the crap out of stuff. A 30" threat range is better than you seem to think. Remember, there's only so much room on the board.

[biffster666]

Thanks for the scoop Dwest on the no second re-roll with twin linked/re-roll 1's for IF. A good point about regular Dev's having the option to take Flak missles. Having the option is where it starts/ends for most people. Considering the cost and other AA options Codex SM's have now, that's not an option most people will consider for long, much less field. You're correct that they're not totally interchangeable, but it's nice to see the initial perception regarding Tubbies changing. Having multiple viable choices in each FoC is only a good thing IMO.


I think the Assault version is mostly rubbish. As everyone has pointed out, anything they'd want to assault will probably bypass their armor saves. There is a small selection of random things they'd be better at assaulting than TH/SS Terminators, but there are so many other things they are better at than the Centurions.

You started off solid with 'I think', but then you went straight off a cliff IMO. That second sentence is full of win, heh heh. 'Everyone' seems to be providing different opinions on Assualt Tubbies (Dev also) IMO. Some similar/the same, but 'everyone' is not pointing out the same things IMO. Combining 'everyone' with 'anything/probably' is very funny though IMO. That last opinion is full of even more win though! Care to provide even one example of the 'small selection of random things' or 'so many other things they are better at than Centurions'? To make a statement like that and not even provide one example? That's just awesome...IMO :D

In my opinion this is a great thread that continues to show both types of Tubbies are viable choices. In my opinion, both types of Tubbies aren't rubbish or a waste of $/FoC, but opinions will/do vary.


And yeah, the grav weaponry is cool, salvo weapons are pretty nice -- however the range is nothing; especially since in a warsuit which can get minced without an invulnerable save in close-combat. They *need* to stick to long range.

This is the second time I've seen a comment about range not mattering. In this example it's 'nothing'. Range might not always be the #1 consideration, but it's always a consideration. This is a fact, not an opinion. In your opinion Dev Tubbies *need* to stick to long range. In my opinion Dev Tubbies don't *need* to stick to long range. How well are regular Dev squads with their T4, 1W, and also no invulnerable save going to hold up in CC compared to Dev Tubbies? When considering your answer, remember it was you that stated range is 'nothing'.

[Aegwymourn]

The everyone I mentioned are the SM players in my local area. I don't think a single one of us like the assault version.

Things I'd rather use: Vanguard Veterans w/ Jump packs (can actually get to where they want), Assault Terminators (are actually tough enough to be a close combat unit), Honour Guard (cheap enough to not care if they do not have an invul save)

Things TH/SS are better at assaulting: Monstrous Creatures/Dreadnoughts (its a little sad that all the things considered "good" at assaulting shred Centurions, even dreadnoughts that are considered bad this edition can still kill a couple before dying), Draigo-star, Nob Bikers, Wraithblades (with the ax/shield combo), Wraiths+Destroyer lord.

Heck I'd even consider assaulting them with my Riptide if I had nova-charged my shield that turn. Worst case I only smush one guy, take a couple of wounds, and fall back and rally next turn since you can't run me down.

[Katharon]

This is the second time I've seen a comment about range not mattering. In this example it's 'nothing'. Range might not always be the #1 consideration, but it's always a consideration. This is a fact, not an opinion. In your opinion Dev Tubbies *need* to stick to long range. In my opinion Dev Tubbies don't *need* to stick to long range. How well are regular Dev squads with their T4, 1W, and also no invulnerable save going to hold up in CC compared to Dev Tubbies? When considering your answer, remember it was you that stated range is 'nothing'.

Before I played Space Marines I was predominately an Imperial Guard player. As such I learned very quickly (not to mention personal experience IRL) that you want to keep the range open between any enemy units and your own. It might not seem like much of a cerebral breakthrough, but it's a fundamental that I cannot not continue to expound upon. For those Space Marine players that have an army largely fit around long range (most heavy weapons having a range of 36" or more and a lot of long-range heavy support/flyers) the Devastator Centurion is a godsend for the fact that it can mount twin-linked lascannons and missile launchers (and fire them both, and split their fire). In that battlefield role, they are optimized and efficient. You take them out of that role and you will get units that are not optimized and less efficient. Sure, the Centurions are not going to be nothing -- mowing down "light infantry" and such with hurricane bolters and heavy bolters, or anti-terminator mode with grav cannons -- but they are more likely to be destroyed the closer they make the distance between themselves and an enemy unit, either through massed gun fire (lasguns, bolters, etc), pie plates set down by S10 24" shots, or plasma weaponry.

So long as they stick to 48" range, killing everything they can from afar, then they stay a maximum threat. I should know, game I had yesterday, I slaughtered a group of 3 Dev Centurions with an IG veteran squad in CC. I was, admittedly lucky (I made four 5+ armor saves), but I had more attacks and he lost. My opponent looked at me and said, without any prompting from me, "Yeah, I should have kept them back further."

Ultimately it's up to you. I can't force you to believe anything I'm saying, nor do I really want you to. Some guys are luckier than others and manage to fight against a lot of opponents that just don't know how to deal with the new tella-tubbies. All I do say, however, is that if you want to get the most bang for your buck and keep your Centurions alive long enough to make their points back -- you should keep them at long range and equip them to be able to do so. Aegwymourn already said more of what I would have said, so no need to say anything else on that matter.

'nuff said.

[Chris*ta]

I was, admittedly lucky (I made four 5+ armor saves), but I had more attacks and he lost.

I think there was greater luck in him failing six 2+ armour saves.

[Learn2Eel]

I'm still musing about Centurions of either kind. I think as has been established the Assault Centurions probably won't work that well due to the insane cost of even getting them into combat where they are no better than TH/SS Terminators, however the Devastator ones are....intriguing. I haven't had enough play-testing against them to really make a strong comment either way.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

On an aside, they're more pose-able than you'd think as long as you ignore the build instructions.
I'm totally sold on the Dev version, but I'm in the air on assault.
They clearly crack tanks, bunkers and I3 or less walkers FAR better than TH/SS Terminators (although i'm not sure if they do so better for your buck points or money wise), i'm thinking purely about hitting power and speed.
Similarly with 3 TL flamers and 3 Hurricane bolters they crank through light infantry.
HOWEVER and here is the however.
I see no situation where they fare well in toe to toe with fast stuff.
Venerable or Ironclad Dreadnought should (through din't of lots of ID attacks at equal I) kill the outright in a titanic struggle that'd look EPIC on the table. And I don't see any High I (4+) - High T (5+)not splattering them.
Likewise getting them from A to B without a landraider seems even riskier than trying it with lightening claw termies.
Still, at the things they excel at listed above there is clearly nothing better out there for codex marines ATM.

[Learn2Eel]

The biggest issue is they are slow and thus require a Land Raider, and even then, if you want a dedicated assault unit you are far better going for Honour Guard instead. Particularly for Imperial Fists, cracking tanks at range shouldn't be an issue, certainly not to require Assault Centurions.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Honor guard are definitely a good assault choice. But not an AP2 buster like these guys. They'd certainly make a mess of small groups of meganobs etc.
I agree delivery is an issue. Can you fly them in? Not got my codex to hand.
As for buildings and the like frankly I don't think you can do better than assault centurions BUT, and this is a big qualifier, they aren't fast to get there. So I have to agree with L2Eel on that point.
Any chapter traits get them looking better? (i'm not 100% new dex compliant yet)

Ironhands ones at least get FNP(6+), that's a boon.

Salamanders ones don't really get much benefit even WITH He'stan.
Although a MC Grav-cannon on the sarge is pretty sweet.

[Chris*ta]

if you want a dedicated assault unit

I'm going to keep saying this, because it seems like people aren't listening; Assault Centurions are not a dedicated assault unit! You can tell because they have a bunch of guns!


cracking tanks at range shouldn't be an issue, certainly not to require Assault Centurions.

Huh? Assault Centurions aren't for long range?

[DWest]

Huh? Assault Centurions aren't for long range?

I believe what he meant is "Imperial Fists should easily be able to kill tanks with ranged attacks, and therefore they do not need to rely upon something marginal like charging a tank with Assault Centurions for their anti-armor needs."

[biffster666]

The everyone I mentioned are the SM players in my local area. I don't think a single one of us like the assault version.

Everyone quickly became a much small number, and you're not even sure of their opinions...interesting.

I would love to see a Riptide smash into Assualt Tubbies and squish one, run away...and then get blasted by Melta guns...I might start crying I would be laughing so hard whether I was playing or just observing. More power to you though :D I would totally throw CC Centurions at your examples because they would get to shoot them and go first in CC in most of those examples. Not saying they're always going to come out on top or that they're a 'perfect' CC unit, but 'rubbish'? Come on now ;)


Any chapter traits get them looking better? (i'm not 100% new dex compliant yet)

Ironhands ones at least get FNP(6+), that's a boon.

The Iron Hands Sgt. also likes It Will Not Die, Kap. I also think IF Tubbies with Tank Hunter are pretty kewl regardless of not being able to reroll 1's with the twin linked weapons. I don't have the SM codex with me so I'm drawing a blank beyond that right now.

Very interested in hearing about people's experiences with both fielding/fighting against both types of Tubbies in the near future. Some good examples already starting to pop up in this thread even. I'm definitely going to be picking up a couple boxes to add to my Iron Hands force!

[Katharon]

I would love to see a Riptide smash into Assualt Tubbies and squish one, run away...and then get blasted by Melta guns...I might start crying I would be laughing so hard whether I was playing or just observing. More power to you though :D I would totally throw CC Centurions at your examples because they would get to shoot them and go first in CC in most of those examples. Not saying they're always going to come out on top or that they're a 'perfect' CC unit, but 'rubbish'? Come on now.

Least the Riptide has an invul save...and more wounds...

[Aegwymourn]

I would totally throw CC Centurions at your examples because they would get to shoot them and go first in CC in most of those examples. Not saying they're always going to come out on top or that they're a 'perfect' CC unit, but 'rubbish'?

How do they go first against things like: Swarmlord/Hive Tyrant; Demon Prince; Bloodthirster. All of which are capable of killing them without breaking a sweat. Against the other things Draigostar, Nob Bikers you do realize that almost all if not all your attacks are bouncing off them and then you are dying right? I don't see how you can take a "close assault unit" seriously when it dies to anything remotely considered good. Might they be a nifty unit to try in a non-competitive setting. But don't try and sell them as actually good.

And who cares if they can have a couple of meltaguns. It'll take you forever to get anywhere to use them. Unless again you are taking a Land Raider as a transport that they are totally reliant upon to do anything. A unit that requires their transport to not die to have an impact on the game is at the very best not good. I stick by that they are rubbish.

Also in my example with the Riptide, best case you only lose one. Worst case I hit with all three attacks and stomp the whole squad. With a 3+ invul I'm not really scared of a couple of meltaguns either.

[DarkLink]

If you're not I5+, you're slow in assault, and if you're slow in assault you'd better be durable. Durable means having some sort of protection from Instant Death (Eternal Warrior is best, T5 is only mediocre because there's a lot of Str 10 assault out there) and a good invulnerable save, or 2+ armor and at least a 4++. Lacking an Invulnerable Save and Eternal Warrior, there are only a few things that Assault Centurions are better against than THSS Terminators, and THSS Terminators can still handle those few things pretty well generally, or SMs have a different answer to them.

They're not terrible, but they're not particularly good either.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

If you're not I5+, you're slow in assault, and if you're slow in assault you'd better be durable. Durable means having some sort of protection from Instant Death (Eternal Warrior is best, T5 is only mediocre because there's a lot of Str 10 assault out there) and a good invulnerable save, or 2+ armor and at least a 4++. Lacking an Invulnerable Save and Eternal Warrior, there are only a few things that Assault Centurions are better against than THSS Terminators, and THSS Terminators can still handle those few things pretty well generally, or SMs have a different answer to them.

They're not terrible, but they're not particularly good either.

Pretty much.
They excel at a single role not filled by any units in marines currently.
Splattering I3 walkers without getting hit back.
That is all.
They're better VS vehicles and buildings than CC termies but VERY similar to shooty termies.
They have a role, just not one that isn't filled just as well elsewhere.
But thematically they're awesome, and in Zone Mortalis or boarding games where there are restricted LsOS and weapon ranges they come into their own. Here the combination of firepower output on a small unit and heavy hitting is fantastic.

[Chris*ta]

They're better VS vehicles and buildings than CC termies but VERY similar to shooty termies

By "VERY similar" do you mean "a lot better than"? If shooty terminators all had chainfists, an extra point of Strength and didn't have unwieldy, they'd be very similar ... oh, and if the terminators had frags, too ...

I still think people aren't really understanding the best use of Assault Centurions. They're a short-range shooting unit, who are pretty good in assault, not a dedicated assault unit. If they pick their targets well, there's relatively little that can frighten someone with a 2+ save that hits at initiative 4.

[Katharon]

Let's not forget that there are only four vehicles in the game that are "hard" to penetrate: Land Raiders and three Leman Russ variants that have AV11 on their butts. Every other vehicle can be easily popped by Assault Terminators without needing the Armuorbane USR.

[Asuryan]

Let's not forget that there are only four vehicles in the game that are "hard" to penetrate: Land Raiders and three Leman Russ variants that have AV11 on their butts. Every other vehicle can be easily popped by Assault Terminators without needing the Armuorbane USR.

+ every Necron vehicle

[Chris*ta]

Let's not forget that there are only four vehicles in the game that are "hard" to penetrate: Land Raiders and three Leman Russ variants that have AV11 on their butts. Every other vehicle can be easily popped by Assault Terminators without needing the Armuorbane USR.

And walkers, who use their front AV ...

[GravesDisease]

Maybe they are designed to kill tac squads... sorry am just trying to divine their true purpose.

[Aegwymourn]

I still think people aren't really understanding the best use of Assault Centurions. They're a short-range shooting unit, who are pretty good in assault, not a dedicated assault unit. If they pick their targets well, there's relatively little that can frighten someone with a 2+ save that hits at initiative 4.

But that is the problem. They are so short ranged, while being very expensive and fragile, with no way to get there outside of a very expensive transport. The number of times they would be better than something else in the codex is so small that unless you play a fluff army that includes them, or a different ruleset (zone mortalis, city fight, etc) you would be better served elsewhere in the codex.

[biffster666]

Ah, more of the 'they don't have an invulnerable save', I think there is a similar unit in another army with a 2+ save, 2W and not even a T5 but they do 'ok' heh heh. hhhmmmm, poor SM's need an invulnerable/Eternal Warrior hug? Eternal Warrior, I fah! on your Eternal Warrior. Some of us have been going to battle with multiple wound T3 no Eternal Warrior HQ's forever...SM's definitely need to grow a pair. But I don't have an invulnerable save or Eternal Warrior, how can I possibly go into CC without at least one of those?!?!?!? Cracking me up!

I also love the 'We'll just agree to disagree' and 'nuff said' Katharon...and yet you still can't resist can you? The Riptide just has an Invulnerable save, not more wounds than a squad of Tubbies...It's the little things, /shrug Some crazy tactics you've got there though, original for sure.

I can think of MC, Dreadnaughts with powerfists, and some Special Characters/IC with S5 and a PF/TH, but that's just a few, not a lot. That's just me though, rock on with 'a lot'. I would agree it's pretty easy to get a lot of S8 attacks in CC, not a lot of S10 ones though.

Poo poo them because of no invulnerable save and no eternal warrior, Poo poo the cost (both $/pt.). I think it's awesome, more for me :D I'm sure we'll have this discussion again in person though Dark. It's all good!

[Chris*ta]

fragile

T 5, W 2, 2+ Save is fragile? Really? Unless your other army is an all-Storm-Shield Deathwing, I don't think this is fragile ...


with no way to get there outside of a very expensive transport Well, they do have feet. And don't say you can't walk a short range unit, because pretty much every unit in the Tyranid Codex disagrees.


The number of times they would be better than something else in the codex How many times have you played with Assault Centurions? Try playing them. Try playing a list built around them. Until you've given them a proper try, you can't discount them entirely.

[Aegwymourn]

Fragile for a Close Quarters troops. Sure 2+ w/T5 and 2W is nice for say a shooting unit or a mid-range unit. But one that has to get within 12" to be effective? You had better be able to survive against the worst your opponent can throw at you because that is awfully close. Any serious close combat unit will toast them. Any serious ranged unit will either double out the T or is ap2.

Sure they can move 6". But with S&P they cannot run, which makes them fairly slow. Most other units in a similar vein are only good because they also have at least 24" of shooting (dev centurions/paladins).

Did you just cross compare codecii? Sure things from Tyranids can walk, generally because there are a whole bunch of them and the whole army has fleet/psychic powers to allow it to do that.

I am not going to spend 190 base points for a unit that I have to "build a list around". I have listed all the units I think would be able to handle them quite easily which are regularly seen in competitive lists. If you are making a more fluffy/fun list go ahead and take them. But again they are not a good competitive choice because there are so many things that easily hard counter them from good competitive lists.

[Phototoxin]

I like the assault variant more (the shooty ones are less efficient than devs I think) but they lack mobility, they can't pod or teleport which sucks. 200pts + a 250pt land raider or 200pt raven means that they aren't that viable.