Grav weapons vs. Plasma Weapons: What's your take?

[papa smurf]

Hey all, long time no post but I just recently picked up the new Space Marine Codex and was wondering what was your take on grav-weapons vs. plasma weapons? I understand grav weapons are the new toys but do they beat out the good ol' face-melting plasma? Here's some points I can think of off the top of my head:

- Grav wounds based on armor saves, so it won't do as much to high toughness/multiwound beasties with relatively poor armor saves (I'm thinking ravenors, nobs, tyranid warriors, etc.) so plasma's strength beats it out there.

- They're both AP2 so their preferred prey, heavy infantry with a good armor save, will have to worry either way. This is where I find it relatively equal between the two.

- plasma can hurt the user, grav doesn't. I know it's rare enough but I remember pretty much every time my favorite sergeant has blown himself up with his plasma pistol...

- Grav-gun is Salvo 2/3 while plasma gun is only rapid fire. more shots equals more chances to kill!

- Plasma gun has the range with 24" vs. grav gun's 18", so this means you can do a little more sniping with the plasma gun.

- Against vehicles grav has to roll a 6 to do anything, but the result is quite nice. Plasma on the other hand can be quite effective, especially against light vehicles and/or rear/side armor.

That's what I have off the top of my head, what's your take? Do you prefer one over the other for tactical reasons or do you just like one or the other based off fluff? Which one would make a better combi-weapon? Talk it up folks! :D

[Captain Bubonicus]

One more interesting Graviton vehicle effect that a poster noted in another thread:

Since the Graviton weapon doesn't cause penetrating or glancing hits (it merely removes a hull point), vehicles can't take Cover saves under the "Obscured Target" rules!

[interrogator_chaplain]

I think I'll be rolling Plasma (Mostly because I'm Dark Angels and don't really have a choice :p) because if I need to blow away a horde, the extra shots that could insta-gib some nasties could make all the difference. (I'm also fairly lucky when it comes to my Gets-Hot rolls, in my last 6 games I've only lost 1 man to Gets-Hot. It makes up for my appalling luck elsewhere.) Throwing in a Grav-Gun complicates the shooting by turning rampaging hordes like hormagaunts and ork boyz into T6 annoyances when shooting with the Grav-Gun. I tend to keep my troops guns on reasonable threats like enemy troops when possible.

Unless I can get my hands on some grav-cannon totting Centurions, I'm sticking with Plasma for now.

[DarkLink]

Grav guns get more shots than plasma does. Grav is better on relentless platforms, worse on anything else. Both bikes and Centurions have bolters to kill gaunts.

[Cadian122]

I played a game yesterday v. Orks, the Grav-Gun I took didn't do anything, the wielder used his Bolt Pistol more often. That being said, I'll play a couple more games before I decide whether to drop it. I've never been the biggest plasma gun fan, on my guard they overheat and kill a guardsman most of the time (and I get 3 Grenade launchers for the same cost), and on my Marines I tend to always blow up 1-2 marines a game. Although, back to the game yesterday, the Plasma Cannon on the Contemptor I took didn't overheat at all, but I think I'll stick to Flamers/Meltas if the Grav-Gun doesn't work out.

[Phototoxin]

I've not tried them yet, but my instinct and mathammer tells me to stick with plasma.

[DarkLink]

I played a game yesterday v. Orks, the Grav-Gun I took didn't do anything, the wielder used his Bolt Pistol more often. That being said, I'll play a couple more games before I decide whether to drop it. I've never been the biggest plasma gun fan, on my guard they overheat and kill a guardsman most of the time (and I get 3 Grenade launchers for the same cost), and on my Marines I tend to always blow up 1-2 marines a game. Although, back to the game yesterday, the Plasma Cannon on the Contemptor I took didn't overheat at all, but I think I'll stick to Flamers/Meltas if the Grav-Gun doesn't work out.

You played against Orks, WTF did you expect? And like I said, Salvo weapons are pretty bad on non-relentless platforms, so don't take Grav Guns on anything that isn't relentless.

[Cadian122]

You played against Orks, WTF did you expect? And like I said, Salvo weapons are pretty bad on non-relentless platforms, so don't take Grav Guns on anything that isn't relentless.

I wasn't expecting anything, it was just a pity I couldn't try it out v. the Mega Armoured Nobz.

[Mr Mystery]

Don't underestimate the Concussion ability....

See that Swarmlord? KERKNACK! He's now I1. Thunderhammer Terminator Assault Squad? Fill. Your. Boots.

Lawks! It's a Wraithknight/Lord!! KERNACK! He's now I1. Go on lads, get stuck in....

Ranged concussion is absolutely beautiful! And doubly funny to go Gravving up Dreadnoughts. Can't move, lose a hull point, and I1. Eat Krak Grenades, Smelly McNolegs!

[Katharon]

Grav-weapons are heavy infantry killers. Plasma guns are heavy infantry killers and all-around killing stuff weapons. Grav weapons have more shots (salvo) but are shorter ranged.

I'll stick with plasmas in general -- but maybe think about grav weapons as a niche item for when I'm going against someone like my DA buddies that like to do Deathwing.

[Sly]

Grav guns get more shots than plasma does. Grav is better on relentless platforms, worse on anything else. Both bikes and Centurions have bolters to kill gaunts.

Exactly. It's the platform that makes Grav weapons better or worse (except for Pistols). On Relentless platforms like Bikes/Centurions, they're great. On foot, they're poor.

[DrLove42]

Grav kills heavy infantry and MC's

Plasma kills normal troops, hordes, vehicles, heavy infantry and most MC's

So grav you get more shots, but plasma can do more. Plasma has more "range" especially if you move.

[DarkLink]

That's irrelevant when centurions and bikes both keep their tl bolters. You dont take special weapons to kill light infantry, you use bolters and the occasional dedicated AI platform. But relentless grav guns are objectively better against MCs, medium to heavy infantry, and vehicles in almost all cases. Take grav on bikes and centurions, plasma and melta on tactical Marines.

[chicop76]

I would say this is a no brainer

Vs vehicles

14
Grav causes hull point and immobilzed
Immune to plasma

13
Grav does same as plasma, but it causes immobilzed on top of causing a hull point

12
This is where plasma starts pulling away and actually beeing better since it glance on 5 or pen on 6

10-11 this is where you rather have plama over grav.

The fact grav immobilzes on a 6 makes it also better than plasma. For example let's say you shooting at eldar wave serpents which down grades shots to glancing and they moving to where they have a +3 cover save. With a grav weapon a 6 will force the vehicle to stop moving and no more cover saves, well a plasma gun just cause a glance or two.

The fact grav weapons can screw Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar or any skimmer makes it better a lot of ways than your plasma.

That being said who really uses plasma for anti-vehicle anyway. Since grav can hurt 13 and higher, and can stop 13 armour 4 hull point necron barges dead in it's tracks I would say grav over all wins this over plasma.

Unless you are facing a bunch of armour 10 vehicles, or 11.

Now that we looked at vehicles let's look at vs models

Against t6 models and higher the grav gun turns out to better, however vs most daemons and the C'Tan the plasma is actually better. The fact a whole army can laugh at the grav gun, orcs in a way can laugh too, and ig in a way. This being say all grav weapons would be a poor choice.

Now like link say who really shoots plasma at infanrty unless it's something like marines which plasma is better. Vs terminators it's about equal since grav can dish out more standing still and within 12" they can dis out the same. Once out of 12" the grav comes out better. Which means the grav gun is a better choice.

Thinking about it say 2 grav guns on 2 bikes is rather nasty, 12" movement and 18" give the bikes 30" threat range. If bikes had twin linked shooting or tank hunter I would be very worried.

Reading Darklink's inputs I would personally take grav bikes. They can switch to bolters if needed and with the assault cannon the unit can dish out 10 MC killing shots on top of bolter fire. Two grav guns and an assault cannon seems like a good build to me. The funny thing is you have 10 shots that can hurt vehicles too, even a threat to a landraider.

Outflanking bikes with 10 shots like that wouldn't be a bad ideal, 12" safety zone.

The more I think about it the more a threat it really is. The assault cannon is nice since it is ap 4 with rending, so even low saving models will receive some hurtful shots.

Yeah I pretty much sold on grav bikes.

[Mr Mystery]

Grav-Pistol is, for my money, objectively superior to a Plasma Pistol.

Pour quoi?

Same points (I think. 99% sure!).

Plasma Pistol might well kill you. In the face. Which is less than good.

Range is a lot less of an issue, as there is a good chance you'll be assaulting after firing anyway, or snap firing at a charging enemy.

Concussive. I really can't believe no one else is making a big thing of this. Concussive is utterly brilliant on a ranged weapon! And as Grav Pistols are typically found in the greasy mitts of a Sarge or Vet Sarge, they benefit from Precision Shots. And unless I've missed an FAQ (never, ever rule that out, especially with me!) that means every snap shot that hits, is a precision shot. Fair chance in that case of Concussing the enemie's big bad squad leader, giving you a shot at dealing with him before he deals with you.

But that is purely for Grav Pistols!!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

You can't Precision Shot on a Snapfire, I'm afraid. I believe that's in the basic rules.

That said, the point about Grav Pistols is a good one. Concussive is huge. It makes a Combi-Grav a good choice for a unit which is probably going to get charged at some point, too.

[Mr Mystery]

Ah fair enough on the snap shots!

But yeah. It saves your butt against so many big nasty HTH things. Like Hive Tyrants, Dreadnoughts, Greater Deamons (Bloodthirsters in particular, due to their save!) Daemon Princes with the Black Beardy Mace, so on and so forth. Depending on the squad and it's general armanents, this can mean a decent chance at beating the big nasty to death with it's own liver before it gets a chance to swing. Imagine a flying Hive Tyrant. Yes it's a snapshot, but hit, and that's a good chance of a wound off. Then a fair chance of it failing to miss the ground (another wound). You can then rush it in HTH (either with the firing squad, or something a smidge more competent) and kick it's teeth down it's throat before it knows what's happening. Delightful!

[chicop76]

I didn't mention it since I didn't know it can do that. Do all 3 weapon types lower int. Or just the pistol. Adding lowering int makes the weapon even better than plasma.

[Mr Mystery]

All Grav Weapons have Concussive.

It's a reet saucy ability when you don't have to do it in HTH!