Grey Knight Origins and CSM Parallels

[Bigred]

Long ago, I got to have a long sitdown with a trusted contact who told me the following on the Grey Knights.

1) The Grey Knights are founded on Garro's group of Loyalist survivors assembled under Malcador's orders.
2) They were 8 original members, a well rounded group that represents many of the Traitor Legions and includes the following:

Nathaniel Garro (Death Guard)
Iacton Qruze (Luna Wolves)
Garviel Loken (Luna Wolves)
Macer Varren (World Eaters)
Tylos Rubio (Ultramarines)
Unknown (Thousand Sons presumed)
Unknown (Emperor's Children presumed)
Unknown

3) The Grey Knight named characters are meant to be the "purified loyal mirrors" of Chaos Marine characters, and that you can deduce their original Legion geneseed from this. For example:

Draigo - Abaddon (Luna Wolves geneseed)
Draigo and Abaddon are the ultimate hero/villain counterparts, and are well matched in rules.

Crowe - Lucious (Emperor's Children geneseed)
Crowe is the incorruptable swordsman, Lucius the swordsman who corrupts all he touches.

Mordrak - Ahriman (Thousand Sons geneseed)
The ghost knights were described as the bound souls of the Thousand Sons who died loyal during the purge of Prospero, bound to return and defend their Legion's loyalist descendants for eternity.

This leaves Stern and Thawn as mysteries.

I would postulate that Thawn's eternal life perhaps is some faithful link to the Death Guard. Stern is more difficult to place, but as general assault machine, a World Eater's link might be a match - or the Ultras. Of greater mystery is who those last 3 original members could be.

I still have hopes for Saul Tarvitz, or perhaps Ancient Rylador.

Who do you think best matches up with CSM counterparts?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Reallycool thoughts. I like this.

The problem you might have with Stern is that he's an older character, older probably than the recent thinking about the origins ofthe Grey Knights which has given us the Horus Heresy and the most recent GK codex. So he's unlikely to be an obvious fit.

I do wonder who the others are going to be!

[Lexington]

IIRC, it's been pretty strongly hinted that Sevatar of the Night Lords is one of the original Knights.

[DarkLink]

I've always thought of Grey Knights as loyalist cult Marines of the God-Emperor. Maybe because I started with Chaos back in 4th.

[daboarder]

IIRC, it's been pretty strongly hinted that Sevatar of the Night Lords is one of the original Knights.

WHAT?


I thought the ADB trilogy suggested that sevatar was dead? and last the HH mentioned him he was a prisoner of the dark angels.

[Bigred]

Now that's the novel I want to read:

Garro, Loken and the other "Magnificent 7" do a "Guns of Navarone" jailbreak to get Sevatar out of a Dark Angel's citadel.

That one writes itself! Toss it to ADB and rake in the cash.

[daboarder]

I still don't buy it. Sevatar has no guilt or internal conflict over the actions of his legion. In fact he seems to be more concerned over the legion ss an Identity than curz

[Mr Mystery]

Don't recall who Sevatar is!

But very good thoughts there BigRed!

And this folks, is why the 40k background is second to none!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Jago Sevatarion, 1st Captain of the Night Lords, Master of the Atramentar.

My favourite character. :p


Also, I just suggested this to the big man ADB. :)

[DrLove42]

Sevatar is ****ing nails.

Him, Argal Tal and Kharn are my three favourite pre Heresy characters. All three of them on an adventure would be badass

SPOILERS - (Highlight) If just a bit difficult with Argal being dead and Sev in prison and all....

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

They're my three favourites too. :p

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Sevatar would be epic, but he's had prophetic visions of his own death and knows he won't live past Terra. But what do we know about prophecies? They're open to interpretation...

The other problem with Sevatar is that he's pretty far gone down the path of the traitor. It seems to me that the thinking behind the Knights Errant is that they're composed of the very most loyal marines imaginable; those so strong and pure of heart that they remained true to the Emperor and their duty in the midst of utter corruption. In a way, maybe this is why Rubio is there - he could have warned everyone about Calth, but didn't because such would be a treachery against the Emperor's own edicts. Or there's another reason, but I think this is what unites all those we know of so far. It's relatively easy to be loyal when everyone is loyal; it's amazingly difficult when all around you has crumbled into darkest treachery and heresy. These guys are special. They looked into the abyss, saw what was gazing back, and they spat in its face.

[daboarder]

Yeah thats why I do not t think the emps children will get a founding knight. Their loyalist got killed I sword of truth.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Right. And while you can have Cerberus returning from the dead, if a whole raft of the Istvaan III victims start showing up Miraculously Alive then it just cheapens everything. So probably no Tarvitz, sorry guys.

[Lexington]

Also, I just suggested this to the big man ADB. :)
Pretty sure he knows. ;)

My knowledge of the possibility comes from this thread (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262330-a-very-weird-idea-i-just-had-to-share-about-sevatar/) over on the B&C where the possibility is brought up. A D-B pops in on Page 4, and spends a lot of time defending the idea as a possibility and notably not denying it.

The main theme of Prince of Crows concerns Sevatar's disillusionment with the Night Lords and with Kurze himself, and the story ends with him imprisoned on a Dark Angel ship, with the ship he was on blown to pieces. So, as far as anyone in the Night Lords knows, the guy's a goner.

Definitely a theory with some legs.

EDIT: Er, well, maybe he did deny it - in a sort of roundabout way - here (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262330-a-very-weird-idea-i-just-had-to-share-about-sevatar/?p=3208215). Still, the possibility's there.

[daboarder]

the thing is, that story still has kurze himself romping around on the DA's ship. its basically a guerilla warfare style boarding action at this point.

[Mr.hardrada]

Sevatar may be one of the founding Astartes for the Grey Knights as I recall Grand Master Khyron had a rather interesting quote that escapes me. It's a far stretch from saying "Death to the False Emperor" to training Grey Knights. I want Sevatar to be alive but we'll see I guess.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Long ago, I got to have a long sitdown with a trusted contact who told me the following on the Grey Knights.

1) The Grey Knights are founded on Garro's group of Loyalist survivors assembled under Malcador's orders.
2) They were 8 original members, a well rounded group that represents many of the Traitor Legions and includes the following:

Nathaniel Garro (Death Guard)
Iacton Qruze (Luna Wolves)
Garviel Loken (Luna Wolves)
Macer Varren (World Eaters)
Tylos Rubio (Ultramarines)
Unknown (Thousand Sons presumed)
Unknown (Emperor's Children presumed)
Unknown

3) The Grey Knight named characters are meant to be the "purified loyal mirrors" of Chaos Marine characters, and that you can deduce their original Legion geneseed from this. For example:

<snip>

I still have hopes for Saul Tarvitz, or perhaps Ancient Rylador.

Who do you think best matches up with CSM counterparts?

I love this topic, so much that Ive help get threads shut down because of my passionate advocacy. For about 5 years i have been focused on the 8 Founding Grandmasters of the Grey Knights. It started for me as a way of proving that Loken lived past the end of GiF. For many years saying Loken was alive could really get the flames hot. Searching for more ammunition to fire i decided i might figure out what reason there might be for his continued existence. My search took me to the Collected Visions were i read the section about Malcador and his twelve souls, eight Loyalists Astartes, taken before the Emperor. Only for something this grand could the authors be saving Loken for. Pulling this thread lead me to many others and i was consumed by the idea of who these 8 men could be. That Each individual was known to the Emperor said to me that they each had to have dome great things to be so noticed. I eventually came to think that each of the would have their story told in the HH novels. When Loken starts Horus Rising by saying "I was there..", I think he is telling his story to Malcador or his Grandmaster brothers. i could go on but i don't think i have to make my usual, hard sell here so ill cut to the chase.

My list of the eight Grey Knight founding Grandmasters.

Nathaniel Garro (Death Guard) Aka Janus
Garviel Loken (Luna Wolves) Aka Cerberus
Macer Varren (World Eaters)
Tylos Rubio (Ultramarines)
Revuel Arvida (Thousand Sons )
Saul Tarvitz (Emperor's Children )
Zygmund Tarrasch (Iron Warriors )
Masak (Imperial Fist )

Iacton Qruze (Luna Wolves) has been on and off my list but i cant find a place for him now. I see him as redundant for a couple reasons and though he is my favorite Captain of the Heresy i don't think his fate is one of the eight.

M'hotph was on my list for a long time also.. but then i found Arvida.

It is good to know that what was once a long shot is turning out to be right on the money.

[nathaneal246]

Sevatar may be one of the founding Astartes for the Grey Knights as I recall Grand Master Khyron had a rather interesting quote that escapes me. It's a far stretch from saying "Death to the False Emperor" to training Grey Knights. I want Sevatar to be alive but we'll see I guess.

If Sevatar turned out to be a founding grand master for the Grey Knights I would stop reading BL books out of principle!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

ADB tweeted that it isn't what happens to Sevatar, so we can put that one to rest.

[daboarder]

he still ends up as a corpse then, but I imagine his demise shall be glorious indeed.

[Bob821]

I got the feeling from The Emperor's Gift that The Grey Night believe themselves to be of higher quality stock than the Primarch founded Legions/chapters. The implication to me was there 'Primarch' was the emperor. If they were created from the genetic material of a few scattered bods from various different legions why would that make the 'better' in there opinion then say an Ultra Marine or Salamander?

[nathaneal246]

I got the feeling from The Emperor's Gift that The Grey Night believe themselves to be of higher quality stock than the Primarch founded Legions/chapters. The implication to me was there 'Primarch' was the emperor. If they were created from the genetic material of a few scattered bods from various different legions why would that make the 'better' in there opinion then say an Ultra Marine or Salamander?

That's a long shot, if they were made from the Primarchs geneseed, if there was one, that would put them on par with the Primarchs themselves as they each had part of the Emperor in them! I believe they used the geneseed from the two Primarchs that were never found!

If there was an Emperors geneseed then that's what is used by the Custodian Guard!

[Cpt Codpiece]

I got the feeling from The Emperor's Gift that The Grey Night believe themselves to be of higher quality stock than the Primarch founded Legions/chapters. The implication to me was there 'Primarch' was the emperor. If they were created from the genetic material of a few scattered bods from various different legions why would that make the 'better' in there opinion then say an Ultra Marine or Salamander?

thing is after the heresy the imperium went a bit stupid.
legionaries from heresy era were better than current (M41) marines, as their zygotes were made slowly, rather than rushed like M41 era. and obviously they had the source they could just go and prod the primarch with a pointy stick and make more marines that way from pure sources.

i dont think the GK will turn out to be anything extra special. they have better equipment.... and specialist training, almost complete brainwashing compared to the forced training and meditation of chapter line troops.
the emperor was not present when malcador was selecting 'his' knights errant, he was busy taking names (literally) on the golden throne, trying to keep the warp from rupturing over terra.
while malcador was ancient and wise he was not the emperor, he held on to religious beliefs from the past (he had a bible and other books of power, in his personal museum), the entire GK creed is that of the witch hunters and inquisition (real world), just men of a religious 'calling', rather than an army of Jesus' (as would be if they were all made from the emperors stock... like the primarchs).

the other two primarchs were found at one point, they are the lost and the damned. they are also mentioned multiple times in the heresy books and implied that russ had his way with them, or at least one of them.

[biffster666]

Very kewl thread. I'm a big GK fan, they're army #3

How about Cypher as one of the original 8?

Stern or Thawn = Typhus?

Was one of the Thousand Sons mentioned in a previous post from Battle for The Abyss? Name totally escapes me, and I don't remember if he died or not. He'd be a good candidate for the list if he didn't. Wasn't the World Eater named Scar? He was awesome.

The Emporer's Gift, awesome book where the Space Wolves prove yet again they are, and always will be, the kewlest/bad@$$ Legion ever. Grimmnar killing the GM = priceless Bjorn turning the Inquisitor into a jibbering ball of goo = priceless. That book was full of GK/SW awesomeness!

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Very kewl thread. I'm a big GK fan, they're army #3

How about Cypher as one of the original 8?

Stern or Thawn = Typhus?

Was one of the Thousand Sons mentioned in a previous post from Battle for The Abyss? Name totally escapes me, and I don't remember if he died or not. He'd be a good candidate for the list if he didn't. Wasn't the World Eater named Scar? He was awesome.

You talking about M'hoteph. He was on my list until I found out about Arvida. And after hearing Grey Angel I crossed Cypher of my list of possible Astartes.

[biffster666]

Thanks Lord Lorne, I'm on the road until next week so I don't have my HH novels handy and I was being lazy and didn't want to google it. Arvida is from? (yup, lazy again) I haven't picked up Grey Angel yet, I'll have to order it for sure now heh heh.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Thanks Lord Lorne, I'm on the road until next week so I don't have my HH novels handy and I was being lazy and didn't want to google it. Arvida is from? (yup, lazy again) I haven't picked up Grey Angel yet, I'll have to order it for sure now heh heh.

Arvida is from Rebirth a short story in Age of Darkness. He was a Thousand Sons, Sargent, Pre-cog, who lived to tell the tale of Prospero after the War. He had a run in on Prospero some time after the War there, with World Eaters led by Kharn. He should be in a cave waiting for the Khan to find him if things play out as it looks. Some feel he will be the founding Lord of the Blood Ravens but I think he has greater fate in that he will be a Grey Knight Founding Grandmaster. .../Flesh CHANGE!/

[bladeofdeath3]

If you read The Gates of Terra short story, but Nick Kyme, there's a small blurb about lifting the Edict of Nikaea.

*Possible Spoilers ahead*
Malcador tells Dorn that "The ends justify the means. We are talking about survival." Dorn responds that he is "uncomfortable" with what Malcador is doing. Malcador finally responds "Of course you are. This is why I need your confidence. This is why it had to be only you that knew about it. We do not tread lightly over our Father’s edicts." and that "He must never know." Over the course of the story, Umojen, was referenced by Malcador. If you don't remember, Umojen was the Chief Librarian of the Salamanders prior to the Council of Nikaea. After that it is shown that there are "Hundreds of chambers were revealed, their subjects under psychic trance, each presided over by a Librarian from diverse Legions sent back to Terra by Captain Garro and his cohorts."

Seeing this means implies that Malcador began recruiting Librarians to be part of the Chapter after Nikaea. While they may not be the founding masters of the Grey Knights, I feel that this story is very important to the lore of the Grey Knights. It seems that Malcador created the Grey Knights out of necessity, and that the Emperor didn't entirely sanction what the Chapter was becoming. As for Loken returning from the "dead", I really didn't like that...

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

If you read The Gates of Terra short story, but Nick Kyme, there's a small blurb about lifting the Edict of Nikaea.

<snip>
Seeing this means implies that Malcador began recruiting Librarians to be part of the Chapter after Nikaea. While they may not be the founding masters of the Grey Knights, I feel that this story is very important to the lore of the Grey Knights. It seems that Malcador created the Grey Knights out of necessity, and that the Emperor didn't entirely sanction what the Chapter was becoming. As for Loken returning from the "dead", I really didn't like that...

Yup, and if you did not like the return of Loken how will you take Tarvitz's? You may not agree with this but if you think of who were the main characters in the opening Trilogy and see that they were the few, loyalist survivors of Horus's Expeditionary fleet. We did not read from their prospective just because they were there but because they lived to tell the tale. Now not ALL the perspectives were from the survivors.. Ignace Karkasy , maggared, Jubal, but if you count Loken and Tarvitz as survivors then it is the VAST majority of them. I've been saying this for years...

[bladeofdeath3]

Has it been confirmed that Tarvitz is coming back? I was upset at Loken's more so because the way they portrayed it. Disbelief can only be suspended so far... At the end of the Isstvan III, Loken is not only critically wounded in combat against Abaddon, but is also trapped under rubble after Horus levels Choral City. After somehow surviving all of that, he manages to actually fight against Garro? I know Space Marines are resilient, but that seems a little over the top... I suppose Malcador knew that Loken was alive to send Garro to recruit him. Therefore, wouldn't Malcador know whether or not Tarvitz was alive and have Garro pick him up too since they're on the same planet and all?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Has it been confirmed that Tarvitz is coming back? I was upset at Loken's more so because the way they portrayed it. Disbelief can only be suspended so far... At the end of the Isstvan III, Loken is not only critically wounded in combat against Abaddon, but is also trapped under rubble after Horus levels Choral City. After somehow surviving all of that, he manages to actually fight against Garro? I know Space Marines are resilient, but that seems a little over the top... I suppose Malcador knew that Loken was alive to send Garro to recruit him. Therefore, wouldn't Malcador know whether or not Tarvitz was alive and have Garro pick him up too since they're on the same planet and all?

Well, If Tarvitz was alive and on Isstavan III, I suppose you would be right but I think Tarvitz is long gone. When Garro gets back to Isstavan III he has no interest at all, in his Honor brothers fate. Not one word spoken or thought is related to Tarvitz in the story Legion of One. This is one of many reasons I feel Tarvitz Lived. If Tarvitz was still on the KIA/MIA list, I think Garro would give more then a little bit of thought to his fate, as he did in Sword of Truth when he asked some Emperors Children, Loyalists, survivors if Tarvitz was alive. Tarvitz's fate has not been confirmed. Just one more reason why I feel he is alive. Same thing happen with Loken. Most people thought he should be/ was dead. Don't worry though, I'm just a guy with a crazy theory.

[bladeofdeath3]

I suppose the problem with canon, fluff, and BL is the fact they have so many authors writing the books. I hate to say it but no one author can no every detail of the 40k, let alone the Horus Heresy universe. What would be interesting to see if they had a bible of details, who lives, who dies, etc. I hope Tarvitz stays dead. He had a good run and he almost defied the odds. We get to see him slap around Eidolon during Isstvan III, but in the end, he dies a heroes death. If any of the loyalists was crucial to they loyalist cause in the heresy, it was Tarvitz. I suppose since Loken did survive his wounds, it is theoretically possible that Tarvitz could survive his...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I'm honestly certain Tarvitz will stay dead.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I suppose the problem with canon, fluff, and BL is the fact they have so many authors writing the books. I hate to say it but no one author can no every detail of the 40k, let alone the Horus Heresy universe. What would be interesting to see if they had a bible of details, who lives, who dies, etc. I hope Tarvitz stays dead. He had a good run and he almost defied the odds. We get to see him slap around Eidolon during Isstvan III, but in the end, he dies a heroes death. If any of the loyalists was crucial to they loyalist cause in the heresy, it was Tarvitz. I suppose since Loken did survive his wounds, it is theoretically possible that Tarvitz could survive his...
It sounds like you are trying to say that Loken's / Tarvitz's survival was a mistake or a result of miscommunication. The authors get together and talk a lot about their story's and plot lines. Also I can say that from the first days of the Horus Heresy being shared with us there has been side story's about Loyalist Survivors of Isstvan III. That list Garro, Tarvitz, Varren. Not a list of those who did great things but died, Survivors. The details have changed a bit and now with the Novels it has been fleshed out but the names are the same, why would their fate change? And you can see the possibility, but I think Tarvitz was in good shape the last we saw him, relatively speaking.


I'm honestly certain Tarvitz will stay dead.

Did you fell the same about Loken staying dead?

[Bigred]

I think Tarvitz stays dead - if only so that Istvaan III has a true martyr of note who died for the cause.

My bet for loyalist Emperor's Children geneseed would be Ancient Rylanor. They specifically mention him headed down into an underground cavern before the final bombardment starts. Nice and vague - just like authors like it if they have future plans for a character.

If anyone can survive for as long as possible till a rescue force arrives, it's a named character Contemptor Dread who can power down and hibernate.

I kind of like him as the first Grey Knight Dread. I mean hell, if the Studio was pushing the envelope the Grey Knights could recover him in the 40th Millennium, power him up, fill him in on 10k years of history and induct him into the ranks. He would have scores to settle with the surviving CSM Heresy-era ICs

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Did you fell the same about Loken staying dead?

I feel this way precisely because they brought back Loken. You can bring back one character whose demise was ambiguous. Two, more - where do you end it? - is bad writing.