Guilliman and the time-locked stasis seal...

[Mr Mystery]

If I may direct you to Codex Space Marines, page 9, paragraph 2......

And in a 'news to me' it seems the genetic stock of the Traitor Legions wasn't destroyed, but put in deep cold storage.......

Does this add credence to their possible use later in the Imperium's history? Such as founding the Exorcists (who very much remind me of Thousand Sons...)

Discuss!

[mathhammer]

old news.

check up on the 13th founding, blood ravens, and others.

also without the gene seed how can you find those alpha spies?

[Mr Mystery]

Not sure it is old news....

Certainly the first time I've seen it in black and white that the Imperium retains, or at least retained, geneseed of all the heresy legions.

[Baneblade]

That bit of fluff has been around forever. In the novel Nightbringer, Uriel visits the stasis chamber once he was made captain of the 4th company to pray for guidance, even though he has doubts about whether Guilliman is really healing or in a state of near death. Guilliman is not there for genetic stock, rather he is there for hope that one day he may return from FUlgrims wound and lead the Imperium to a new golden age.

[Mr Mystery]

Wrong bit of background chum :)

I'm referring to 'traitor' geneseed held in stasis, on Terra. Not Guilliman himself.

[Lexington]

Yeah, it's definitely old (think it's in the 2nd Ed Codex Imperialis), but it's not something that gets printed very often.

[Bigred]

Yeah, they kept the Traitor genestocks - old news. The big question is what they do with it (aside from the Grey Knights, but that is for another day).

[papa smurf]

Yeah I'm thinking this relates to some other stuff like the 13th founding, Chapters with "mysterious" pasts, etc. etc. On the hobby side, it does give credence to lesser known or even homebrew space marine chapters who may have some traitor geneseed.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

This has been around as long as the Cursed Founding information has been, although usually as a 'rumour' iirc. It's very heavily implied (almost outright stated) that the Adeptus Terra and the Inquisition have mucked around with the traitor gene-seed stocks on a few occasions. It leaves the door open for being descended from Traitors in making homebrews.

[Mr Mystery]

Ah fair enough! Thought it was just me!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It'd be interesting to know, and we may never, whose decision it was not to destroy the gene-seed. Was it Guilliman? Was it someone else - and why did they do it?

[Denzark]

I've never noticed it in fluff before. I knew about guilliman. My understanding was that M41 Homeworlds kept sufficient stocks to rebuild their entire chapter - although without the progenoids of the fallen it would be a slow if not impossible process. Also, the Admech get x amount as a tithe for inspection pusposes. The question how entire traitor legions' stocks got to Ultramar when homeworlds were destroyed or translated to the Eye of Terror, is interesting.

[Wildeybeast]

I thought the traitor gene stocks were stored on earth along with all the other gene see stores? I'm also not sure it is the entire legions seed, I read it as more just a sample of their geneseed.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

There's some confusion here.

It's not in Ultramar, it's on Terra. The Adeptus Terra maintains all stocks of gene-seed and conducts regular purity tests on existing Chapters. The latter are the samples. Their greatest asset is the original gene-stocks from the Founding Legions; what they don't let people know is that they kept the stocks from ALL the Founding Legions, when they probably weren't meant to.

The Mechanicus don't get a tithe, that's the Adeptus Terra, the Imperial Government.

It's all on Terra. Not Ultramar. Terra. Not Ultramar.

[Denzark]

you don't have to repeat yourself you know, I'm not deaf...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Sorry, that came across meaner and less funny than I intended. Apologies!

[Denzark]

NP. Incidentally I am away from home and will re-read my fluff on all things geneseed related, on return - how could I mistake Holy Terra for Ultramar pshaw!

[Psychosplodge]

I thought the reason it was sealed was that the Adeptus Terra are waiting for the Emperor to make the decision?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

You never know with the Adeptus Terra. :)

[Katharon]

It'd be interesting to know, and we may never, whose decision it was not to destroy the gene-seed. Was it Guilliman? Was it someone else - and why did they do it?

Seeing as how Guilliman was the one who organized the gene-seed tithe system and the bank system of them, it would be safe to say that he was the one ultimately responsible for this choice. The logical answer? Because of the fact that it *is* gene-seed -- that most precious of genetic catalysts that is required to create a Space Marine. The reason for locking them down seems only natural in light of the Horus Heresy. Whose to say that the betrayal did not, in some manner, result from a defect in their gene-seed? I cite the Word Bearers Legion as an example, as in the book "First Heretic" is is speculated at various times by various characters who believe that the ardent loyalty for their primarch that each Word Bearer held was not just due to training or conditioning, but rather on the genetic level; a genetic impulse designed to make the Space Marine implanted with that particular gene seed more likely to obey and follow their particular primarch, even against the Emperor.

With that in mind it was only prudent that the traitor legion gene-seed be locked away, but not destroyed. At a later date it might be redeemed for use.

That's my $0.02 of speculation...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Sure. And the whole system of tithing, control and observation is precisely because of the too-fast and unobserved recruiting practices of the Heresy, all of which went very badly wrong. Too many instabilities went unnoticed or ignored. It's all but outright stated that many of the Traitor Legions had flaws in their gene-seed, their recruitment practices, or both. Some of these flaws, like the Word Bearers', were very subtle, and need not even necessarily have been flaws if events had taken another turn.

This has always been the reason Ultramarines gene-stock has been the preferred source of new Chapters. It's stable, it doesn't mutate, it doesn't have crazy quirks. It's reliable. Even the Imperial Fists, who I believe are the second most commonly used and are almost as reliable on a genetic level, have a couple of mutations which mean a couple of the Space Marine organs don't work properly, and there's the tendency towards producing marines who are self-denying to the point of throwing themselves into fights they can't possibly win. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing in the 40k universe, but it isn't always what you need to be able to count on.

I think it's a Captain Agemman line in one of the Graham McNeill Ultramarines books which points out that the point of the Codex Astartes and reorganization is not to make perfect Space Marines but LOYAL Space Marines. It's what all the reforms are for; making sure something like the Heresy could never happen again.

[Katharon]

...the Codex Astartes and reorganization is not to make perfect Space Marines but LOYAL Space Marines. It's what all the reforms are for; making sure something like the Heresy could never happen again.

Not so much loyal space marines, but that no one man or space marine lord would ever have in their power that which the Primarchs did in controlling legions. But yeah, I get what you mean.