Who needs balance when you can have sales?

[MrBo]

Ok so, i'm a little miffed, but i have to remind myself that this is only the first week, tactics and armies will change.

But from what i am looking at, as a csm player how am i supposed to react to a sm codex release that without a doubt is better in every way to my codex?

I cannot fathom how a year of separation between codex releases can be this lopsided. My only conclusion is that based on the codexs released so far, Gw has lost interest in keeping balance, they are more interested in driving sales through more elaborate and overpowered codexs, all meant to keep you buying the latest and greatest.

I'll probably come back and rant some more, but is anyone else feeling this way?

[Demonicsarge55]

I know how you feel, it has felt like chaos has been the red headed step child of GW. Always there, always getting updated and revised, and then Space Marines come out and give them what we have been asking for about 7 years. Rules for our legions with out being over powered.

[The Sovereign]

As a fellow CSM player I feel your pain, but Vanilla Marines didn't get that much new stuff, really (though they already had tons more toys than we did in the first place). Let's wait and see what our legion minidexes bring; I have a feeling we'll be much happier when our armies get fleshed out through supplements.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I think a lot of this just depends on your perspective. I played Vanilla marines for a long time, and they were SO bad. I started playing Chaos more often and had a lot more success. Now...I don't know. The Vanilla Codex is definitely improved, but I have yet to play any games with them. We'll see. I just don't likethat Chaos is as bad as so many people suggest. It is a really characterful, fun Codex in my view. Maybe the people I play with aren't particularly competitive. The majority of them play CSM and seem happy with them. The really competitve folks in my area play Warmahordes.

[ElectricPaladin]

I don't doubt that you see a genuine problem. I haven't read either codex yet. But for all that Games Workshop has a lot of problems, I really don't think that they actually go around making one army better than the others just to boost sales. It would be an incredibly dumb business practice. There's no accounting for taste, you see. Marines get a lot of flack for being the army of 14 year olds, but I've met kids who play Tau and Eldar and 'Nids and whatever.

Go ahead and be frustrated at GW's lack of balance... but I don't think it's supposed to drive sales. I think it's just the creators running up against the limits of their own creativity.

[lattd]

I feel that all this csm whining maybe be isn't all that warranted, what I mean is people have been so focused on the drake plus cultist spam that, they haven't reviewed units as new codecii have come out? Consider the demon engines a mauler fiend has the speed and hitting power if I remember to easily deal with that pesky riptide in cover or the broadsides sat in the trees.

[Arkhan Land]

As much as I despise the corporate aspects of GW Im simply more inclined to think that on this one it just wasn't that strong of a hit. I think its always tough being one of the earlier major races to get a new codex but at the same time I can only hope that GW can respond to any glaring issues with Updates and slight balances with new releases. Yes GW is kind of dropping the ball on CSM but at least its allowed itself enough of a system to help pick itself back up.

[White Tiger88]

Well if it makes you feel any better you can call spacemarine players pigs due to the new plastic helmet......

[Kaptain Badrukk]

My POV as a veteran Chaos Player is that the new codex is a fine improvement on the 5th edition one. It brings us closer to the 3rd ed book without reaching the cheese-beard heights that that book brought. True marines have some shiny stuff, but nuts to their shiny stuff. I still have cheaper power armored guys, monstrous creatures, more walkers (for my money the best vehicle type bar fliers), and can take an entire T5, Fearless, scoring army with defensive grenades AND poisoned CCWs. Marines can't do that.
I know that we pay too much for a few things (like possessed and AA) but for the most part we're fine.
The new marine book also seems fine, it's just the same crap that happens every release. The internet gets all excited about it, we read it and go "Wow!". The same voices scream "Codex Creep!" like parrots for the month building up to us actually SEEING a codex and we start to believe them, and then the book comes and things ain't as powerful, but we're still in the month ago mindset. And in a couple of months we'll be over it.
Apart from that tiny, noisome, minority of us whose hobby is firmly lodged in tournament meta. They're not wrong, they have as much right to opine and play their way as anyone else. But they are not the 90 odd % of us who would never reach the top tables of a highly competitive tourney where their analysis is the difference between life and death.
Just my thoughts.

[Kirsten]

the new marine codex is a superb book, but it isn't actually all that different to the old one. It is not going to cause sweeping changes to the way anybody plays.

[Mr Mystery]

And once again, having spent years whining they were only spikey Marines, Chaos players now complaining because they're not just spikey Marines.....

[Wolfshade]

Remember back when everyone had access to everything and all the armies were identical, those weren't great.


Land Speeders for all!
http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt503implandspeedwd101.jpg

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Sod land speeders, I want my Eldar Land Raider!

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Mayhap we should read the title as "why enjoy what you've got when you can complain about it on the internet....."

[lattd]

Whats even better is the book is only 3 days old and has already broken 5 other codecii in that time, must be so broken that its caused a rift in the warp that means 3 days is enough for it to be played a serious number of times against all types of armies.

[Learn2Eel]

Well, it is true that Chaos Daemons, Tau and Eldar have been more competitive codices than Chaos Space Marines and Dark Angels in terms of variable competitive builds. And looking at all the stuff Loyalists get, it does seem a bit unfair on Chaos Space Marine players; particularly given what they had three editions ago. However, Space Marines are easily GW's biggest and best selling model range, so I'm not too fussed if they get extras; it has always been the case. In saying that, I do wish we had 'Renegade Tactics' as a Chaos equivalent to Chapter Tactics; the book is too mono-build as it is.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Whats even better is the book is only 3 days old and has already broken 5 other codecii in that time, must be so broken that its caused a rift in the warp that means 3 days is enough for it to be played a serious number of times against all types of armies.

Explain for those of us who're hard of thinking. Which books has it "broken" and how?

[Mr Mystery]

He's being faceit.....face....poop......cheeky.

He's being cheeky! :p

[Learn2Eel]

No no no, it's....

GRAV GUNS ARE HAX! Spashe Marinez OP my WRAITHKNIGHT will be gibbedby GRAV BIKERS for 100 pts they cant even balance Vulkan REROLL meltas for FREE. OMG BRO wtf was Crud thinking. FFS my eldar are boned, yo?

[Kirsten]

chaos had more new options this edition than loyalists have with the fiends, warp talons, mutilators, helldrake, cultists (as a permanent fixture and not a legion specific thing) plus the marks and icons together doing great things and more widely available. space marines got the AA tank, the centurions, and some tweaks to existing stuff.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

No no no, it's....

GRAV GUNS ARE HAX! Spashe Marinez OP my WRAITHKNIGHT will be gibbedby GRAV BIKERS for 100 pts they cant even balance Vulkan REROLL meltas for FREE. OMG BRO wtf was Crud thinking. FFS my eldar are boned, yo?
??
If you're having some kind of seizure I highly recommend calling for a medical professional.
Otherwise I assume you're speaking in some kind of tongues in which case
"The Power of [insert deity here] compels you!"

[Mr Mystery]

chaos had more new options this edition than loyalists have with the fiends, warp talons, mutilators, helldrake, cultists (as a permanent fixture and not a legion specific thing) plus the marks and icons together doing great things and more widely available. space marines got the AA tank, the centurions, and some tweaks to existing stuff.

YEs yes yes. But you have to remember, apparently, all those things, after extensive personal play testing, and rigorous number crunching, are apparently utterly worthless. Because they aren't Spikey Marines.

[lattd]

Exactly Mr mystery, we must all remember that CSM must be all the best bits of marines plus demons and ramped up to 11 because they need to break the game again. We cant have this new concept of every army being unique, where CSM are depraved self centered warriors who used demons that can pump out plasma cannons on a very resilient platform or who have a demonic engine that can charge through cover, both similarly priced to a wraithknight or riptide. So why are the latter two seen as pretty awesome where as the former are never mentioned.

[Learn2Eel]

??
If you're having some kind of seizure I highly recommend calling for a medical professional.
Otherwise I assume you're speaking in some kind of tongues in which case
"The Power of [insert deity here] compels you!"

I was doing my best to mimic the efforts of the noble internet trolls who populate the hobby...I saw recently someone blaming Ward for how "over-powered" grav guns were. :eek:


Exactly Mr mystery, we must all remember that CSM must be all the best bits of marines plus demons and ramped up to 11 because they need to break the game again. We cant have this new concept of every army being unique, where CSM are depraved self centered warriors who used demons that can pump out plasma cannons on a very resilient platform or who have a demonic engine that can charge through cover, both similarly priced to a wraithknight or riptide. So why are the latter two seen as pretty awesome where as the former are never mentioned.

Not sure how to respond, but just to make sure, you aren't actually comparing the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend to the Riptide and Wraithknight in a serious sense, right?

[Learn2Eel]

chaos had more new options this edition than loyalists have with the fiends, warp talons, mutilators, helldrake, cultists (as a permanent fixture and not a legion specific thing) plus the marks and icons together doing great things and more widely available. space marines got the AA tank, the centurions, and some tweaks to existing stuff.

Chapter Tactics completely changes how an army uses a tonne of units in the codex. Imperial Fists approach Devastators completely uniquely to any other force, while Salamanders popularize specific uses of Assault Marines and Tactical Marines that other armies wouldn't dare to use. The new units are almost arbitrary compared to the staggering array of combos that Chapter Tactics gives us. Chaos may have received two new characters and five new units while Space Marines were landed with no characters (unless you include Black Templars) and four units, but the army-wide changes brought about by Chapter Tactics more than make up for any deficiency in that sense.

[Mr Mystery]

Without being overpowering!

They're pleasant little thematic rewards, costs factored in across the army.

[Learn2Eel]

I agree. The basic Marine gets a lot of good stuff for what you pay for. Unfortunately, it does really expose how badly valued Chaos Space Marines (the Troopers) are. Besides, in 6th Edition, Tau and Eldar laugh at you for paying more for Troops!

[lattd]

The same amount of combos and change that marks and icons provide? If people want to play the heresy then look at forgeworld, CSM are not the legions and should play differently. Why not review the fiends, no one has done it in a while and the meta has changed a lot. Actually why not review CSM and DA again now we have some more 6th edition dex's. This edition has been about constant change but too quickly have we sunk into this is good this isn't but without comparing things regular.ly

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno.

CSM come pretty well equipped, and be a dual shooty/choppy unit to boot. And come in much larger units if you want them to. And are backed up by cheap, disposable, but actually not-too-bad-due-to-sheer-volume Cultists, something loyalist Marine's don't get. And that horde can be fearless by dropping in a Dark Apostle....

[Kirsten]

Chapter Tactics completely changes how an army uses a tonne of units in the codex.

not at all, it gives a few perks to people playing in character with their chapter. the benefit to imperial fists devastators is a minor one, it just makes them a little more attractive in an organisation slot with a huge amount of competition. Shrike used to give the Raven Guard fleet, and was probably the best marine character in 6th prior to the new dex, fleet is an amazing rule. now only assault marines get something similar. perks for themed lists, hardly ground breaking.

[Learn2Eel]

The problem is that a basic Space Marine gets And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics and more dedicated transport options than a Chaos Space Marine for only one point more per model. Contrast that to Chaos Space Marines who have to pay for icons to grant Fearless or Feel No Pain in an edition where barrage weapons are becoming so prevalent that keeping expensive icons safe is very difficult. No one is saying Chaos Space Marines should play like Space Marines, the problem is that even in non-competitive games the codex struggles against the others owing to a wide range of over-costed units. It would have been a perfectly fine book if the developers had stayed true to it and Dark Angels, but Daemons/Tau/Eldar have quickly changed the meta completely and are definitely in a tier to themselves competitively. Look at a Chaos Space Marine biker and a White Scars Space Marine biker, only a point of difference and the latter is superior by a ridiculous margin.

The problem with any Space Marine codex so far, with the exception of Chaos Space Marines (ironically due not to the marines themselves) is that Tau, Eldar and even Chaos Marines themselves (specifically Heldrakes) laugh at elite infantry of all kinds. The meta game has switched over to lots of cheaper units, hence why competitive Chaos Marine lists consist almost entirely of Cultists for Troops choices. It is simply too easy in the current meta for units of any kind to be destroyed in a single turn - firepower is at an all time high - and thus the general belief is that paying more for "better" units, even if they are more points effective, will just leave you with less models to sacrifice to win an objectives game.

As far as the Maulerfiend and Forgefiend go, they aren't half bad. The problem is that even with their invulnerable save and It Will Not Die, most armies are easily able to destroy or cripple them severely in a matter of moments. Take Mech Eldar for example; they absolutely reave vehicles that are AV12 and lower. Tau? The only thing they won't strip is your invulnerable save, but when you have to take six or seven at a time, it won't matter. The Forgefiend also suffers from being a less cost-effective Leman Russ Executioner with the ectoplasms cannons, while it needs an allied Tzeentch psyker to give it re-rolls to hit with the Hades Autocannons. It simply isn't points-efficient otherwise, particularly when compared to Obliterators and Havocs. Maulerfiends are good for putting pressure on tanks, but again, the top builds can counter it too easily. As to the earlier comparison to the Riptide and Wraithknight, that is simply too much discussion for one post. To put it lightly, they are incredibly versatile and destructive monstrous creatures that are darned near impossible to kill, as opposed to the 'Fiends that are relatively easy to destroy in a 6th Edition context and aren't nearly as useful or versatile.

This isn't me being a negative-nancy, to be perfectly honest. This is me pointing out the simple truth that Eldar and Tau are the top codices and they make mince meat out of any elite army, including Marines of all flavours.
Am I complaining about it though? No. I'm happy with my Chaos Space Marines. That doesn't mean I can't accept that they won't get me as far at a competitive level as Eldar or Tau or Chaos Daemons, nor will they offer me such a wide range of themed builds that are also well balanced and entertaining to play.

[Learn2Eel]

I dunno.

CSM come pretty well equipped, and be a dual shooty/choppy unit to boot. And come in much larger units if you want them to. And are backed up by cheap, disposable, but actually not-too-bad-due-to-sheer-volume Cultists, something loyalist Marine's don't get. And that horde can be fearless by dropping in a Dark Apostle....

Chaos Space Marines have to pay for the extra combat weapon, or take it for free but lose the bolter. Compare a unit of them to Black Templar Crusader Squads. The difference really exposes that Chaos Marines themselves weren't thought out too well.

And that is the problem. Cultists are what you see competitively, not the actual Chaos Space Marines. This is everyone's problem with the codex; Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers and Chaos Space Marines are remarkably inferior to Noise Marines, Plague Marines and Cultists as Troops choices, so much so that even in themed lists you will actively feel like you are "gimping" yourself. I'm a dedicated Thousand Sons player and it doesn't bother me personally, but it is hard not to notice the inequality when you look at an army list. Compare that to Eldar Troops choices. Dire Avengers, Guardians, Rangers, Windriders and Wraiths all have defined roles in the army and actually perform well at their role. You don't feel like you are making a bad choice when you take any of them.


not at all, it gives a few perks to people playing in character with their chapter. the benefit to imperial fists devastators is a minor one, it just makes them a little more attractive in an organisation slot with a huge amount of competition. Shrike used to give the Raven Guard fleet, and was probably the best marine character in 6th prior to the new dex, fleet is an amazing rule. now only assault marines get something similar. perks for themed lists, hardly ground breaking.

I wouldn't call tank-hunting lascannons for the same cost as non tank-hunting lascannons in other armies a minor benefit. Similarly, I wouldn't say that Bikes gaining +1 to jink saves, automatically passing dangerous terrain as well as +1 Strength to Hammer of Wrath hits minor. An Iron Hands Chapter Master with the same kit is a heck of a lot scarier than an Ultramarines one. This is what I mean; the Chapter Tactics have some major affects on the viability of a unit. Contrast this to marks for Chaos Marines, which you have to really pay for to make the most out of them, and they often don't even provide that big of a benefit. Take the Mark of Slaanesh for example, outside of the Icon of Excess, what are you really getting on your basic Marines or Havocs or characters? Most armies you see at tournaments won't care about an initiative boost when either they blow you to smithereens or have a higher or lower Initiative value anyway.

From memory, Vulkan was everyone's favourite special character for Space Marines in both 5th and 6th due to making short-ranged/drop pod armies twice as effective.

[Mr Mystery]

But you have to take the Cultists into account when looking at the points.

They're cheap meatshield/objective holders. This is a distinct advantage over Space Marines, as you can dedicate far fewer points to holding objectives, and therefore go on the offensive more readily with your power armour. This makes the power armour that bit more useful, affecting their points value.

This is something I know is odd to many, but the books are primarily internally balanced. For instance, Lascannons. A Lascannon is a Lascannon is a Lascannon. You'd think every one would pay the same points for them. But even within the same book, they don't. It depends who is firing it (say, Marine compared to a Guardsman) in terms of BS and general 'not getting killed that easily'. Then you have to look at how many in the squad, and how many squads can be squeaked into an army.

Internally balancing the books is the best way forward. You've also got the Chaos Reward table. Yup, it's random. But for ever 'knackers. Kharn's gone a bit gribbly', there's a 'bwahahaha! Aspiring Champion r now Daemon Prince!' rolled up.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I think you could be missing the point that some people may make. That although all of the things you've listed above a great. No argument. We're the only people ho can buy +1ld for every model in a unit for 1pt. or +1T for 3?(not looking in my dex right now).
An entire army of fearless T5 power armored models for 19.5pts a head (assuming 1 icon in ten marines) ain't bad.
Now as I've been working on (an instigated) a project to get stop-gap legion specific rules out there in the community you KNOW that I'm pro more chaos ideas. BUT and this is a big BUT (yeah, i giggled at that) I think the current dex is awesome, I just fancied doing some rulesdev stuff and knew that these were an excellent way of doing it.

[Learn2Eel]

That's the major problem everyone has with Chaos Space Marines though. The internal balance is horrendous. A Cultist is nine points cheaper than a basic Chaos Space Marine, and the differences aren't that significant. Take it one step further. Compare a Chaos Space Marine to a Thousand Son. Again, you are paying ten points more per model now, and are you really getting that much more bang for your buck? That doesn't even begin to factor in that Thousand Sons are supposedly a "dedicated MEQ killer" unit that can't even do its job well. Then you look at the Elites section. Assuming you are taking Cult Marines as Troops, why would you ever take any unit there except Chaos Terminators competitively? Contrast that to Tau, who actually have a ridiculously tough choice between Riptides and Crisis Suits. Heck, even Stealth Suits are good for the points. I look at the Heavy Support section of Eldar and then at Chaos Space Marines and simply sigh. Every single one of the Eldar units is taken in all kinds of tournament and grand tournament army lists, because each has a clear purpose that it excels at. Contrast that to Chaos Marines, who are actively shoe-horned into taking Obliterators because they are just so much better than any of the other choices.

I then look at the HQ choices of the 6th Edition books and raise my eyebrows. With Chaos Marines, you typically want a kitted out Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince, and maybe Huron or Kharn. Why would you honestly take a Dark Apostle or Warpsmith over a Chaos Lord, realistically? You might say "theme purposes", but then why can Daemons get away with taking any one of the generic Greater Daemons or even the generic Heralds and not have to rush to justify their purchase?

I know this sounds like whining, but again, I'm just pointing out the general opinion on the CSM book. I like playing with them and I win games through smart tactics without any Obliterators, Heldrakes or even Cultists. I like using my Thousand Sons and will continue to do so. That doesn't mean I can't see the glaring issues with the book when compared to the newer books. For instance, in an Eldar army, I could take an entirely Saimn-Han (Jetbikes, Grav Tanks, etc only) and feel just fine for both rewarding rules and entertaining games. I can't do that with Thousand Sons. I could take an entirely Iyanden list either in transports or on foot and feel like I can take on strong army lists without having to resort solely to smart tactics. I can't do that with World Eaters.

The difference between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines can be summarized like this; one rewards your themed lists, the other punishes you. I hate admitting it, but it is the simple truth. Why do all Death Guard armies nowadays have Heldrakes and Obliterators? Is that really encouraging themed lists?

[Mr Mystery]

Thousand Sons....4+ Inv, AP3 Bolters (that don't get hot, if memory serves) and come with a Psyker, in the unit. And Fearless to boot? That's pretty dashed pokey!

[The Sovereign]

I think the consensus is that if you don't play Death Guard or spam heldrakes, you're largely ignored by the CSM codex (though I'd argue you could play an awesome Iron Warriors army too). I can't disagree with this, as I play Thousand Sons and have perhaps the most right to complain. But I took some heart with the rumors regarding the codex supplements. As long as they're handled a little better than th Black Legion minidex, I expect I'll be happy.

Edit: Well, I may not have as much right to complain as Alpha Legion or Night Lords players...

[Learn2Eel]

Not really, when you think about it. The 4+ invulnerable save works surprisingly well against units such as Heldrakes and ignores-cover AP3 large blasts from Tau, but it doesn't change their biggest weakness in small arms fire which is readily available everywhere nowadays. Weight of fire tends to be a biggie currently, and so Thousand Sons still don't last too long. Their high cost on top of the expensive (and not very useful) Aspiring Sorcerer means that you can't really get enough of them to force through S4 wounds, and the ease of gaining cover saves lessens the impact of AP3 weaponry that doesn't ignore cover. Unlike Sternguard, they don't have a cheap transport that lets them get into the thick of things to ply their trade early on when enemy units are most exposed. They are Fearless, but lack any grenades and thus are worse than Tactical Marines in combat and can't run away from a fight they can't win, i.e. an AV11 walker. The Sorcerer can get melta bombs, and really that is it.

Everyone wants them to be good, they really do. The best way to tell just how over-costed they are is to sit them next to the new Legion of the Damned, who aren't even a top choice in their own codex. Legion of the Damned don't have the AP3 boltguns, but they can deep strike and do so reliably, have a better invulnerable save, have ignores cover on all of their weapons and thus are better suited to the light-infantry focused meta - heck, ignores cover plasma cannons say hi - and they are much better in combat to boot while retaining Fearless. The best part is that they end up being cheaper in similar numbers due to the high cost of the Sorcerer.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Lets analyse the difference between an CSM and a 1k son for a moment, because I'm annoying.
Marine 13pts in his pants
1K son for 23pts (that's a 10 point jump which is big)
What does he get?
He gets Fearless and an LD bump for wounds on LD weapons and powers (because running is for wussies)
A 4+ Invulnerable Save (because cover is for wussies too)
An AP3 Boltgun
Is he overpointed? Maybe by 1 point, maybe not.
Plague marines are the definite winners of this there is no doubt, they get a buttload of butthurt for discount price.
But that to denigrate a unit that can vent marines in the open and force ones in cover to grab their clanky socks to stay safe is silly.
Plus you can take them in big fat blocks.
A unit of 20 ain't cheap, but not massively more expensive than their counterparts like 20 sternguard.

[Learn2Eel]

Lets analyse the difference between an CSM and a 1k son for a moment, because I'm annoying.
Marine 13pts in his pants
1K son for 23pts (that's a 10 point jump which is big)
What does he get?
He gets Fearless and an LD bump for wounds on LD weapons and powers (because running is for wussies)
A 4+ Invulnerable Save (because cover is for wussies too)
An AP3 Boltgun
Is he overpointed? Maybe by 1 point, maybe not.
Plague marines are the definite winners of this there is no doubt, they get a buttload of butthurt for discount price.
But that to denigrate a unit that can vent marines in the open and force ones in cover to grab their clanky socks to stay safe is silly.
Plus you can take them in big fat blocks.
A unit of 20 ain't cheap, but not massively more expensive than their counterparts like 20 sternguard.

This is the problem with flat out unit comparisons based on cost-effectiveness. The simple truth of the matter is that Thousand Sons die just as quickly as Chaos Space Marines when fired upon by Fire Warriors, or Kroot, or Crisis Suits, or Broadsides, and so on and so forth. This is exactly why people prefer Cultists to Chaos Space Marines. Legion of the Damned are more survivable than Thousand Sons, can get close to their targets reliably, are better suited for dealing with units that Thousand Sons would want to hunt, and are much better against anything else. And a squad of ten Legionnaires is cheaper than a squad of ten Thousand Sons with the Sorcerer included. When you actually apply these units in a game, the difference in performance, even if mathammer doesn't suggest much of a disparity, is immense.

Besides, between Slow and Purposeful and a lack of Drop Pods, how exactly are you getting them close without them getting butchered on the way? What happens when a unit of Flesh Hounds gets close to them? Compare that to Sternguard who have a much better chance of scaring the heck out of the doggies.

[Demonicsarge55]

1k sons are maybe 2 or 1 points too many, where they really get hammered is on their Sorc.

[Learn2Eel]

1k sons are maybe 2 or 1 points too many, where they really get hammered is on their Sorc.

The problem is that overall they are still paying for rules that are made effectively superfluous by 6th Edition, and heck, even their own codex. Does anyone really need a dedicated anti-MEQ Troops unit when Heldrakes are available, and for less than a Thousand Sons squad? Is a dedicated anti-MEQ unit really that worth it when they don't ignore cover as well as dealing mostly with light infantry anyway? Is a 4+ invulnerable save really worth it against eighty lasgun shots from a commonly seen Guardsmen blob?

When they redo the codex, Thousand Sons should be changed to something more along these lines; keep their stats the same, change the sorcerer so that he can take any discipline - particularly Divination - and isn't oddly priced the same as a basic HQ Sorcerer, make their bolters S5 AP4 ignores cover, give them grenades, drop the invulnerable save and instead give them an extra wound (like classic Sons) or Feel No Pain or heck, something else. Voila. With a few simple changes, you have a unit with a purpose. It won't fix the transport issue, but hey, enemies will actually be scared of them. Maybe keep the invulnerable save.

[Sly]

No no no, it's....

GRAV GUNS ARE HAX! Spashe Marinez OP my WRAITHKNIGHT will be gibbedby GRAV BIKERS for 100 pts they cant even balance Vulkan REROLL meltas for FREE. OMG BRO wtf was Crud thinking. FFS my eldar are boned, yo?

Did you just say that your Eldar are Wraithboned, yo? :p

[SaveModifier]

Ok everyone, repeat after me "Its not a competitive game, Its not a competitive game, Its not a competitive game, Its not a competitive game"

People want options, not everyone wants to use 3 helldrakes, for the majority of players, a cool army they like is more important that points efficiency and unit redundancy, they might like the idea of squads of Thousand Sons Rubric Marines marching forward, so, the reason they take them even though your mathhammer says they're inefficient, is because they like them.

[Learn2Eel]

You might want to re-read my post mate.

I'm not asking for a tournament-worthy unit. I'm asking for a unit to be balanced against all the others in a codex. Why should I be penalized for taking a "themed" list because the units themselves are ineffective rather than actual penalties in terms of restrictions to choice, when Eldar can take Swooping Hawk/Warp Spider/Mech/Dire Avenger Foot/Jetbike/Dark Reaper/Wraith lists and not be penalized?

It isn't just competitive players that prefer the Eldar codex over the early 6th edition books.

[Learn2Eel]

How about this to clear the air. Do you feel Thousand Sons are accurately represented in the current rules? Do you feel they have been given a fair treatment in the current rules relative to other units in the codex?
I want Thousand Sons that feel like Thousand Sons, play like Thousand Sons, and are a decent unit, not a bad one that is obviously inferior to other choices in the book. World Eaters players are sure to raise the exact same points about Khorne Berzerkers.
I love Swooping Hawks, a unit that previously wasn't that great either. Now, they are a fine unit that actually feel like Swooping Hawks on the table-top and benefit the army greatly. They don't have to be the top choice, like Warp Spiders, but I am very much content with their present incarnation. I'm not with Thousand Sons, even if I will continue to play them as an ardent fan.
I take Thousand Sons pretty much all the time in my CSM armies, because I do like them. That doesn't mean I feel it is acceptable that I have to deal with bad rules while Plague Marines and Noise Marines got more than decent representation.

[Deadlift]

As many have said elsewhere, want to play a decent 1k sons army, your better off doing a counts as grey knights army instead. It's a shame but there we go. I do find it odd that given the authors that the Eldar codex had such great internal balance and the Chaos Marines one doesn't really.

I don't really play chaos much, but I have friends that do and I hope the rumours of further suppliments are not only true but they also help the balance of the army.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Personally I do feel 1K sons fit the fluff nicely for me.0
They're harder to kill in a single big-impact hit BUT go own under weight of fire (nicely separating them from Plague marines who are shockingly hard to kill with WOF but don't like powerKlaw up the face).
They are slow and ponderous, but NEVER STOP SHOOTING.
They have magical ammo that makes a mockery of all but the strongest armor. (in the constant thoughts of MEQ we always forget that these guys also rinse 4+ save guys (who are mostly T3)).
They can be upgraded to cause extra damage by icon too!
Oh, and they're led by a sorcerer who has access to a load of tzeench spells.
Now i'm 100% behind the guys who want these to be available as terminators and i guess havocs too. But to say they aren't thousand sons, just ain't so.

[Demonus]

chaos had more new options this edition than loyalists have with the fiends, warp talons, mutilators, helldrake, cultists (as a permanent fixture and not a legion specific thing) plus the marks and icons together doing great things and more widely available. space marines got the AA tank, the centurions, and some tweaks to existing stuff.

Did you really just suggest people take Warp Talons and Mutilators?

The problem with the CSM codex is an easy fix. Warp Smiths and Apostles should be HQ choices 0-1 that don't take up a slot. Or Elite choices 1-3 like Sang Priests. They are cool concepts but fall far short of other available HQs. Couple that with a set of rules for each of the main Legions, Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion and make some tweaks to points here and there (Hell Drakes replace gun for flamer at +25pts and make it 180 front arc only) and then tweak WT and Mutilators to make them useful. Oh well, maybe in 5 years when another codex comes out.

[lattd]

Can i just say the constant asking for legion rules is why forgeworld started the heresy series. CSM are no longer the legions, they are warbands, you can make legion lite armies but they wont be legions and thats good because the legions disbanded. Yes CSM could do with some changes but im sorry they won't be getting the legion rules like everyone wants because that is not their focus, they are now more interested in the gods and that is what is shown in the books.

[Deadlift]

Can i just say the constant asking for legion rules is why forgeworld started the heresy series. CSM are no longer the legions, they are warbands, you can make legion lite armies but they wont be legions and thats good because the legions disbanded. Yes CSM could do with some changes but im sorry they won't be getting the legion rules like everyone wants because that is not their focus, they are now more interested in the gods and that is what is shown in the books.

I think GW are interested in what sells, supplements supporting either chaos god alignments or legions would both sell like hot cakes.

[Learn2Eel]

Personally I do feel 1K sons fit the fluff nicely for me.0
They're harder to kill in a single big-impact hit BUT go own under weight of fire (nicely separating them from Plague marines who are shockingly hard to kill with WOF but don't like powerKlaw up the face).
They are slow and ponderous, but NEVER STOP SHOOTING.
They have magical ammo that makes a mockery of all but the strongest armor. (in the constant thoughts of MEQ we always forget that these guys also rinse 4+ save guys (who are mostly T3)).
They can be upgraded to cause extra damage by icon too!
Oh, and they're led by a sorcerer who has access to a load of tzeench spells.
Now i'm 100% behind the guys who want these to be available as terminators and i guess havocs too. But to say they aren't thousand sons, just ain't so.

You should really read the books Black Library put out about the Thousand Sons. Take Ahriman by John French for example (a great book by the way), the Rubricae in that book are nothing like what they are on the table-top. Rubricae are more like Necrons than anything else; their suits of armour are darn near impenetrable, and their armour also stitches itself back together when destroyed. In-game, they have a 4+ invulnerable save. I'm sorry, but that is hardly what Rubricae should be like. I don't expect them to ever get those kinds of rules, but really, if they wanted to do some justice for Rubric Marines and drop the unnecessary upgrades then maybe they could replace the invulnerable save with a boosted armour save or something that makes them more resistant to most kinds of damage.

Yes, in the fluff. On the table-top, they can't Overwatch, ergo, they stop shooting. For a unit priced just like Veterans to have only one attack each and no grenades means they are a horrible combat unit, when they are portrayed in the fluff as - despite being slow - very strong automatons.

Yeah, and unless you make their ammunition AP2, that route doesn't fit. What makes a lot more sense for Inferno Bolts is a boosted Strength and AP - i.e. S5 AP4 - with Ignores Cover to represent the flaming projectiles.
The Icon isn't bad, but Soul Blaze isn't that useful.

Terrible Tzeentch spells. This is where I can make a pretty strong statement that you don't know that much about real Thousand Sons. They were the master psykers amongst the Astartes for a reason; Magnus and they pretty much established all of the main psychic disciplines. Each among them had specialties in each of the different schools, two of the prominent ones being Pyrae and Corvidae. Ahriman was regarded as the Master Diviner, and probably the greatest Astartes diviner ever. Want to hear a joke? Those master psykers don't get any kind of bonuses to casting or stopping psychic powers, the Aspiring Sorcerers are limited to the less than useful Tzeentch discipline, and Ahriman can't take Divination. Yeah. If Phil Kelly actually gave a damn about the Thousand Sons, he would have at least noticed Ahriman should take Divination, you know, because he was the best at it.

So no, they might be Thousand Sons in the sense that they haven't really changed from their previous incarnation. But actual Thousand Sons? Where are the Rubric Terminators? The Sorcerer Covens? The ability to take any psychic discipline? As to the Thousand Sons unit itself, I don't see how anyone can call them a faithful adaption of the Rubric Marines or an Aspiring Sorcerer.

[Denzark]

Can i just say the constant asking for legion rules is why forgeworld started the heresy series. CSM are no longer the legions, they are warbands, you can make legion lite armies but they wont be legions and thats good because the legions disbanded. Yes CSM could do with some changes but im sorry they won't be getting the legion rules like everyone wants because that is not their focus, they are now more interested in the gods and that is what is shown in the books.


Just because they are no longer in legion strength doesn't mean that the basic tactics of that legion aren't still used. World Eaters still do assault, Iron Warriros still do siege, irrespective of 10 of them or 10000. This is a common misconception - a Legion as a Noun meaning a very large formation of space marines, and Legion as a noun describing all the descendents of a single primarch. There is no reason to assume x-legion acts differently because of 10k years in the warp. They may have been on a planet with no mutation/warp effect. Or time might have passed 10k years in the space of 10 years real time.

There is nothing repeat nothing to say a warband of legionnaires acts differently from the parent legion.

[Learn2Eel]

Just because they are no longer in legion strength doesn't mean that the basic tactics of that legion aren't still used. World Eaters still do assault, Iron Warriros still do siege, irrespective of 10 of them or 10000. This is a common misconception - a Legion as a Noun meaning a very large formation of space marines, and Legion as a noun describing all the descendents of a single primarch. There is no reason to assume x-legion acts differently because of 10k years in the warp. They may have been on a planet with no mutation/warp effect. Or time might have passed 10k years in the space of 10 years real time.

There is nothing repeat nothing to say a warband of legionnaires acts differently from the parent legion.

Just to add to your argument, successor Chapters of the founding Chapters/Legions keep the same combat doctrines/chapter tactics as their parent chapters. Going off that example, why would warbands not follow the same doctrines the main body of their Legion does?

[Kirsten]

There is nothing repeat nothing to say a warband of legionnaires acts differently from the parent legion.

actually there are an awful lot of things. Emperors Children warbands act nothing like the legion did, World Eaters are very different, Thousand Sons are very different. Iron Warriors look much the same, but have their traits like paranoia greatly increased. You need to distinguish the pre heresy/during heresy legion, and the chaos legions post heresy, which are hugely different. A trait system like the loyalist marines would be great, but it is completely and utterly untrue to say the chaos warbands are just the legions.

[lattd]

What i see from CSM players on here is the simple comments that CSM isn't the heresy legions with demons. The problem is those are two very different things, the legions are adequately provided for by the horus heresy forgeworld books. Although I understand that people want the legion esque rules, as GW doesn't step on FW toes anymore, I can see the rules you get in the supplements and the rules you want in them to be very different.

Although the marks are GW's way to implement tactics in some form I can see that hasn't been effective. However I can see that CSM does what everyone asked for in it stopped CSM just being spiky marines due to more daemonic units, without just being marines with daemons.

[phreakachu]

Im already paying 50$ for a codex.. Why the hell should i pay FW prices for a book that provides Crusade-era rules, when what i want is some rules for my warband, yes only a warband, to fight like the legion that spawned them? I dont want to play FW World Eaters with spikey models, I want some Gods-damned WORLD EATERS. More Khorne, More Blood, More Skulls. I want scary Night Lords that dont get screwed by the OP-ness of ATSKNF.
Fluffwise, 10k years in the warp does not translate into my Night Lords Captain-turned-Lord telling his 35 subordinates "were no longer a legion, guys, so no more being scary. We've got to figure something out other than this Terror Tactics stuff, because theres only 36 of us now. John, Bill and myself have to call out and Fight every Bad-a$$ we see from now on. No bill, I dont care that hes in Terminator Armor- Call that dude out. oh, and dismantle all of our Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields, LAnd Speeders, Storm Ravens, Storm Talons, Centurion Armor Suits, Drop Pods, Assault Cannons, Volkite Chargers, Grav Guns, Relic Blades and each and every suit of Artificer armor that we have. We don't need them any more"

I'm not saying that we should have EVERYTHING Loyalists have, because if i wanted Nilla Marines, id play Nilla Marines. But some of the "Older than the Heresy" bits of tech could have stayed. from a modelling standpoint, from a collectors standpoint and from a players standpoint, id much rather have a spiked out, different than you optioned Chibihawk over that Gods-Awful Helldrake model. Asides from 2 Special characters and a 1-in-6 chance, the only options i have for coming onto the board are deepstrike and starting on the table. I dont get even so much as a Drop-Pod, which have been, from the fluff standpoint, a core tactic for Space Marines since Day 1.
Im not argueing having the same toys as the Nilla Marines, i'm arguing not having the tactical flexability that SHOULD BE a partof the CSM list: We've only changed masters, not Jobs.we are still Space Marines, we still have our specific legions training. just because we now fight in a group of 35 rather than a group or 35000 doesnt mean we forget the ways we were taught to fight.

With that being said, CSM isnt a bad book: it simply feels like Kelly got handed the project 3 days before deadline to the printers. Champions of Chaos is a silly rule for some Themed armies, and the boons table, while nice, shouldnt be compulsary: i dont want my Lord turning into a Daemon Prince as much as i dont want him turning into Spawn. I want Chaos Space marines, not WFB Warriors of Chaos in Space.

[Demonicsarge55]

actually there are an awful lot of things. Emperors Children warbands act nothing like the legion did, World Eaters are very different, Thousand Sons are very different. Iron Warriors look much the same, but have their traits like paranoia greatly increased. You need to distinguish the pre heresy/during heresy legion, and the chaos legions post heresy, which are hugely different. A trait system like the loyalist marines would be great, but it is completely and utterly untrue to say the chaos warbands are just the legions.
Who is to say that every single one of the warbands of the EC or WE dont act like they did as a legion? And no one is saying that you have to take the Legion tactics, hell all we chaos players want is variety.

[DrBored]

Who is to say that every single one of the warbands of the EC or WE dont act like they did as a legion? And no one is saying that you have to take the Legion tactics, hell all we chaos players want is variety.

Sadly, the previous poster makes a good point..

I've been going back and reading up on a lot of the fluff of the legions post-heresy.

During the Heresy, Legions stuck together, but as soon as the Heresy was over, they fled to the Eye of Terror and began in-fighting. Most Chaos Marine forces are made up of rag-tag groups, from marines still loyal to their Legion to small cult-like groups that are only out for themselves and would just as soon backstab the current HQ as follow him into battle.

So, moving to the Horus Heresy system that Forgeworld sells would make sense if you wanted to play an honest-to-goodness Legion. There are rules in those books to play proper legions, not little warbands, and you'll have your marines be marines.

Then, there's the Chaos Codex that represents those rag-tag warbands...

What I think people want is something in the middle. We want our Legion rules and we want our Chaos mixed in. It doesn't have to be overpowered, it doesn't have to be the same as the 3.5 Codex, but we need to have our options, to play a group of Chaos Marines either during, shortly after, or far after the Heresy.

And of course, it'd be nice if things like Mutilators and Possessed were actually effective. If Possessed just had grenades, they'd be worth their points in a heartbeat..

Anyway, do I think GW is warping all of this to fit sales? Yes and no. If they came out with a Codex that turned out to be WEAKER than all of the other Codices out there, it wouldn't sell, and they wouldn't sell all the models that they had to make expensive new molds for. So, the writers try to make Codices that are on par with the current list of Codices. I think 6th edition is indeed the best edition for balance, far better than 5th. You can still find some neat builds in the Chaos Marine codex if you set fluff desires aside, and Dark Angels are far from worthless as an army. Space Marines don't jump out of the page as totally broken, there's a lot of check and balance in the codex. You can take Tigurius and Vulkan in the same army list, but you'll have to spend all the points involved in getting the troops for both Chapters in order to do that. You can take a full force of White Scars, but the more points you put into bikes, the less you'll have for anti air, and aircraft don't care if you have hit-and-run.

I'm sure that the future Codices will be similarly balanced, but it's going to be rough going. The next 3 Codices to come out are going to be Tyranids, IG, and Orks.. all three of those are Horde armies, and that alone will shake up the meta. Sure we'll probably have some supplements thrown in there to keep the Power Armored armies relevant, but three horde armies in a row is going to make Space Marines really stretch for volume of fire, and people will cry about Codex Creep then.

You see, the whole concept of a 'meta' is the problem. When the Tyranid Codex comes out, all the people that bought lots of Space Marines for the new dex and built them to take on the current 'meta' will cry Codex Creep! because the Tyranids are going to shake up their idea of an 'all comers' army. Instead of adapting their army to face the new threat, they'll complain that their new army isn't nearly as effective as the Tyranid force.

And so the list goes on...

You know what will really be effective against Tyranids though? Plague Marines with plague knives (+4) and Blastmasters that ignore cover and Vindicators and Defilers that have big cannons... But do current Chaos Marine players use Blastmasters and Vindicators? Nope, so when their Heldrakes are ripped apart by FMC's and their Cultists are swarmed by Hormagaunts, they'll be crying bloody murder instead of actually changing up their army list.

[Demonus]

Im already paying 50$ for a codex.. Why the hell should i pay FW prices for a book that provides Crusade-era rules, when what i want is some rules for my warband, yes only a warband, to fight like the legion that spawned them? I dont want to play FW World Eaters with spikey models, I want some Gods-damned WORLD EATERS. More Khorne, More Blood, More Skulls. I want scary Night Lords that dont get screwed by the OP-ness of ATSKNF.
Fluffwise, 10k years in the warp does not translate into my Night Lords Captain-turned-Lord telling his 35 subordinates "were no longer a legion, guys, so no more being scary. We've got to figure something out other than this Terror Tactics stuff, because theres only 36 of us now. John, Bill and myself have to call out and Fight every Bad-a$$ we see from now on. No bill, I dont care that hes in Terminator Armor- Call that dude out. oh, and dismantle all of our Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields, LAnd Speeders, Storm Ravens, Storm Talons, Centurion Armor Suits, Drop Pods, Assault Cannons, Volkite Chargers, Grav Guns, Relic Blades and each and every suit of Artificer armor that we have. We don't need them any more"
I'm not saying that we should have EVERYTHING Loyalists have, because if i wanted Nilla Marines, id play Nilla Marines. But some of the "Older than the Heresy" bits of tech could have stayed. from a modelling standpoint, from a collectors standpoint and from a players standpoint, id much rather have a spiked out, different than you optioned Chibihawk over that Gods-Awful Helldrake model. Asides from 2 Special characters and a 1-in-6 chance, the only options i have for coming onto the board are deepstrike and starting on the table. I dont get even so much as a Drop-Pod, which have been, from the fluff standpoint, a core tactic for Space Marines since Day 1.
Im not argueing having the same toys as the Nilla Marines, i'm arguing not having the tactical flexability that SHOULD BE a partof the CSM list: We've only changed masters, not Jobs.we are still Space Marines, we still have our specific legions training. just because we now fight in a group of 35 rather than a group or 35000 doesnt mean we forget the ways we were taught to fight.

With that being said, CSM isnt a bad book: it simply feels like Kelly got handed the project 3 days before deadline to the printers. Champions of Chaos is a silly rule for some Themed armies, and the boons table, while nice, shouldnt be compulsary: i dont want my Lord turning into a Daemon Prince as much as i dont want him turning into Spawn. I want Chaos Space marines, not WFB Warriors of Chaos in Space.

Great post. I agree 100% with the two highlighted quotes there and have said since Day 1 "this looks like something Phil Kelly threw together half assed."

[Volfen]

??
If you're having some kind of seizure I highly recommend calling for a medical professional.
Otherwise I assume you're speaking in some kind of tongues in which case
"The Power of [insert deity here] compels you!"

I LOL'd at both your reply and Learn2Eel's post. ( Yes, I think you both are right ) ;)

[Kaptain Badrukk]

You should really read the books Black Library put out about the Thousand Sons. Take Ahriman by John French for example (a great book by the way)
You mean the new book, published 2 months AFTER the codex. That book? Yeah, I can see how that would have been a valuable representation of the fluff for them to work from.
It sure makes them look a damn sight more badass than say, the random and scattered collection of fluff they had before. Dotted in old WDs and other armies' codex fluff sections.
Hell their being fused to their armor and all sentient members of the legion being powerful psychers doesn't even flow back much further than 3rd ed.
You're right, I haven't read that 1 novel. And it may give a VERY different perspective, but it's not like I've got 20+ years of fluff knowledge, old books and back-issues of the magazine on my bookshelves at home to help me for an informed opinion on a unit i've been using in my chaos army I've had since 3rd ed.
And the necron re-generation thing is new to me all right, since before they were hellishly hard to hurt, but once their ash was released they died. Kind like having 1 wound and a pretty damn good save really..... Still that second wound wouldn't hurt, and has established fluff value, so i'll concede that a second could be justified.
I do agree that they should be able to overwatch while the sorcerer is present, that just makes sense. In fact they should be Relentless while he lives and SnP when he dies.
AP3 does make a mockery of all but the best armor available. Simple as AP2 would just be daft, they're enhanced bolters, not minor plasma cannons. S5 AP4 instead suggests that it's great at causing harm to someone with exposed flesh, but struggles with the heaviest armor. I'm in the air about ignores cover, on the one hand it kinda makes sense, on the other hand AP4 AND ignores cover is normally the recourse of heavy weapons, which they're not. AP3 and ignores cover would be frankly mad.
Soul blaze ain't game changing, but it is a nice fluffy representation of warpfire mangling your face.

Now onto the psychers bit. Actually couldn't agree with you more. The sorceror costs too much, but he's an ASPIRING sorcerer, not a fully fledged world ending psy-monster. In fairness GW did screw the pooch on ahriman, some might say that his inability to see the future is part of magnus punishing him. I say it was an omission that could easily be solved with a 1 line addition to the FAQ.
The aspiring sorcs on the other hand, should have cost 10-15pts less, and I think that being restricted to Tzeench for them makes sense.

I think part of the issue we have here is that ALL of the secialist units in the CSM book are watered down versions of their legion forebears. They don't really represent the cream of the legions, but rather the limited re-creations available to the Black Legion or the scattered warbands cut off from the true patronage of their primarchs.

BUT, and this is (another dutiful giggle please) this is the biggest but, all marines are epically scaled down versions of what they are in the fluff. The standard tactical marine should, depending on your author, be able to;
Defeat the whole crew of a crashed dark eldar vessel.
Kill an entire regiment of guard without slowing down.
Survive impalement.
Scream so loud (with the aid of his vox emitters) he shatters the armor of howling banshees.
Be blinded and still fight on against Ork nobs by HEARING ALONE.
Resist psychic powers for no good bloody reason.
Punch a Calidus assassin to death.
Spit acid (funny how that rule never comes up in game).
Etc etc etc.
There are fluff instances of single Deathcompany marines taking on greater daemons for pity's sake.
So as watered down versions go, having an invulnerable save that makes terminators jealous and boltguns that shred power armor like tissue paper ain't that bad dammit.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I LOL'd at both your reply and Learn2Eel's post. ( Yes, I think you both are right ) ;)

Thanks man, always good to get a laugh.

[ElectricPaladin]

BUT, and this is (another dutiful giggle please) this is the biggest but, all marines are epically scaled down versions of what they are in the fluff...

I think that it might be more accurate to say that Marines in the novels are epically scaled-up versions of marines in the fluff, while Marines in the table are slightly scaled-down versions of marines in the fluff. Most of the fluff isn't that bad, but some Black Library writers have no discipline.

[Learn2Eel]

You mean the new book, published 2 months AFTER the codex. That book? Yeah, I can see how that would have been a valuable representation of the fluff for them to work from.
It sure makes them look a damn sight more badass than say, the random and scattered collection of fluff they had before. Dotted in old WDs and other armies' codex fluff sections.
Hell their being fused to their armor and all sentient members of the legion being powerful psychers doesn't even flow back much further than 3rd ed.
You're right, I haven't read that 1 novel. And it may give a VERY different perspective, but it's not like I've got 20+ years of fluff knowledge, old books and back-issues of the magazine on my bookshelves at home to help me for an informed opinion on a unit i've been using in my chaos army I've had since 3rd ed.
And the necron re-generation thing is new to me all right, since before they were hellishly hard to hurt, but once their ash was released they died. Kind like having 1 wound and a pretty damn good save really..... Still that second wound wouldn't hurt, and has established fluff value, so i'll concede that a second could be justified.
I do agree that they should be able to overwatch while the sorcerer is present, that just makes sense. In fact they should be Relentless while he lives and SnP when he dies.
AP3 does make a mockery of all but the best armor available. Simple as AP2 would just be daft, they're enhanced bolters, not minor plasma cannons. S5 AP4 instead suggests that it's great at causing harm to someone with exposed flesh, but struggles with the heaviest armor. I'm in the air about ignores cover, on the one hand it kinda makes sense, on the other hand AP4 AND ignores cover is normally the recourse of heavy weapons, which they're not. AP3 and ignores cover would be frankly mad.
Soul blaze ain't game changing, but it is a nice fluffy representation of warpfire mangling your face.

Now onto the psychers bit. Actually couldn't agree with you more. The sorceror costs too much, but he's an ASPIRING sorcerer, not a fully fledged world ending psy-monster. In fairness GW did screw the pooch on ahriman, some might say that his inability to see the future is part of magnus punishing him. I say it was an omission that could easily be solved with a 1 line addition to the FAQ.
The aspiring sorcs on the other hand, should have cost 10-15pts less, and I think that being restricted to Tzeench for them makes sense.

I think part of the issue we have here is that ALL of the secialist units in the CSM book are watered down versions of their legion forebears. They don't really represent the cream of the legions, but rather the limited re-creations available to the Black Legion or the scattered warbands cut off from the true patronage of their primarchs.

BUT, and this is (another dutiful giggle please) this is the biggest but, all marines are epically scaled down versions of what they are in the fluff. The standard tactical marine should, depending on your author, be able to;
Defeat the whole crew of a crashed dark eldar vessel.
Kill an entire regiment of guard without slowing down.
Survive impalement.
Scream so loud (with the aid of his vox emitters) he shatters the armor of howling banshees.
Be blinded and still fight on against Ork nobs by HEARING ALONE.
Resist psychic powers for no good bloody reason.
Punch a Calidus assassin to death.
Spit acid (funny how that rule never comes up in game).
Etc etc etc.
There are fluff instances of single Deathcompany marines taking on greater daemons for pity's sake.
So as watered down versions go, having an invulnerable save that makes terminators jealous and boltguns that shred power armor like tissue paper ain't that bad dammit.

That was but one example. There's a plethora of Thousand Sons fluff to be found elsewhere, both pre-heresy and post-heresy, that really gives you a better insight into the Thousand Sons. I used John French's Ahriman as an example because it is a recent book and thus I thought it was relevant to the discussion. Take a look at the Thousand Sons as depicted in Battle of the Fang and that series where an Inquisitor is being hunted by Ahriman. Hell, take a look at them in A Thousand Sons. They have a lot more background representation than you would think.

The fluff behind the Rubricae points less to them truly "dying" when their armour is damaged, the more recent fluff trends more towards them being truly immortal or indestructible, hence why a Reanimation Protocols special rule would actually work for them and would make them quite distinct from the other units. Though one could argue it is quite similar to Feel No Pain, of course.

Yep, I agree to Relentless when the Sorcerer is alive and Slow and Purposeful when he isn't. That actually makes sense as, currently, they've gotten rid of the downsides to losing the Sorcerer when they had a downside before. I can understand why they got rid of the downside, but there has to be an upside to having the Sorcerer, not just praying he kills something worthwhile with his force weapon or doesn't die in the first few turns to Perils.

This is the problem though. You are saying that concessions need to be made for units to fit into the game from a balance perspective, but then turning around and saying they should keep the AP3 boltguns? This is the problem with AP3 boltguns, they suck. They don't ignore cover, they don't have good Strength, they don't put enough shots, and the range isn't long enough for the already Slow and Purposeful Thousand Sons to make the most use of them. Heck, they can't even Overwatch. They are paying the completely illogical "AP3 tax" that has become a running trend in 40K codices, with units such as Vespid and (before their new incarnations) Dark Reapers paying excess points because they have AP3 guns, when people keep forgetting that AP3 weapons without the traits listed above simply aren't that great. Tau Ion Cannons are scary because they can Ignore Cover through friendly support, have high Strength, long range and can usually hit enough models with each round of fire. The actual damage output of Thousand Sons on a points-per-model ratio is inferior to Tau Fire Warriors without Markerlight support. So if you are saying the units should be changed from the fluff to fit into a strategy game, then realistically, shouldn't Thousand Sons actually have useful weapons, like S4 AP5 Ignores Cover or S5 AP5 Ignores Cover? Heck, give them the equivalent of Psybolt ammuntion and drop their ridiculous price and you are already getting a far, far better unit with a purpose.

I don't mind Soul Blaze, but why should Thousand Sons have to pay for it? In the fluff, Inferno Bolts melt through armour and set people aflame (well not literally, but you get the idea). In that sense, Inferno Bolts should be treated like flame weapons; i.e. they ignore cover. It would make sense, just look at the name, really. Give them a boosted Strength to reflect their ability to punch through tougher targets easier (what kills Terminators quicker is lots of high volume shooting, not small volume low AP shooting).

Pretty much every competitive player or Thousand Sons player I've seen, heard of, talked with or met disagrees. The invulnerable save isn't that bad, but the AP3 boltguns are what kills the unit. They pay a lot of points for it in an edition where cover saves have never been easier to come by, there are a lot more bodies even in marine armies for them to chew through - really exposing the Strength 4 for how middling it is - and they don't put out enough shots at all to justify their cost. Contrast that to making them a lot cheaper with the ignores cover rounds. Bamn. Role found, role excelled at. Granted, they would be competing with Noise Marines on that front, but hey, Thousand Sons are better front-line troopers. Just give them grenades, give the psyker access to all the rulebook lores and you have a decent enough unit.

To rub it in, Sternguard get AP3 bolters as well, and they also get long-range AP4 shots, AP5 ignores cover shots, and Poisoned (+2) shots, as well as two attacks base, grenades, no mandatory crappy psyker sergeant, ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics (which outweighs Fearless) as well as much better transport options. And they are cheaper. Thousand Sons are probably supposed to be the Sternguard equivalent for Chaos Marines in a certain sense, and they really don't fit the bill.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Yeah, I guess part of the problem is that the potency of a marine varies from edition to edition and author to author that actually who knows how tough they're meant to be.
I personally take them on the Inquisitor scale. Where they can take plasma hits and keep coming (admittedly mangled to all hell) and throw a grenade so hard it can kill the guy it hits before it explodes and kills his mates.
Because that was GW's only attempt to truely scale a marine's abilities on the table. And they were AWESOME!

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah that's fair enough. Phil Kelly didn't give either Thousand Sons or Khorne Berzerkers a good representation, which is a shame, but it also comes down to the edition switch and the lack of assault transports and the like (for the latter).
I wouldn't mind the 4+ invulnerable save on Thousand Sons or the AP3 boltguns so much if this was still 5th Edition. As it is, 6th Edition is a case of "your dead both ways". The invulnerable save keeps them alive against cover-ignoring Ion Cannons, but gives them no joy against Fire Warriors. You could say then that the best way to balance both worlds probably would be the reanimation thing, but that probably will never happen. The AP3 boltguns might do ok in a marine-heavy meta, but it is definitely a xenos/daemon-heavy meta and what marines there are tend not to be too frightened of Thousand Sons in the first place due to cover saves and Strength 4.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

This argument could go on forever, because we're both making valid points and has evidence to back them up but neither of us is willing to concede. So I'll drop it because, frankly, I care less than you about the subject and I respect your passion.

The actual damage output of Thousand Sons on a points-per-model ratio is inferior to Tau Fire Warriors without Markerlight support.
Yeah, I have to counter this however. Please back that up with math! Or something.

[Katharon]

CSM codex is a solid codex. People need to use more imagination in creating lists and make better tactical choices on the board.

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah, fair enough, I was about to say the same. As a player that got started with Thousand Sons purely because of thematic purposes, I freely admit I am more passionate about it then I really should be. Ah well.

To get some even numbers going, lets take nine Rubric Marines and one Aspiring Sorcerer for 265 points against the equivalent in Fire Warriors, or 29 for 261 points. Mostly even and fair. Given how random the psychic powers of the Sorcerer are, we will let him use his pistol. So lets get to it;

Shooting against typical MEQs, assume rapid fire range, no cover available
Thousand Sons - 19 shots at BS4, 6 misses rounding down. 13 hits at Strength 4 against Toughness 4, meaning 7 wounds rounding up. no armour saves. 7 dead MEQs
Fire Warriors - 58 shots at BS3, 29 misses. 29 hits at Strength 5 against Toughness 4, meaning 10 failed wounds rounding down. 19 armour saves. 6 dead MEQs rounding down

Shooting against typical MEQs, assume rapid fire range, 5+ cover available
Thousand Sons - 19 shots at BS4, 6 misses rounding down. 13 hits at Strength 4 against Toughness 4, meaning 7 wounds rounding up. 7 cover saves. 5 dead MEQs rounding up
Fire Warriors - 58 shots at BS3, 29 misses. 29 hits at Strength 5 against Toughness 4, meaning 10 failed wounds rounding down. 19 armour saves. 6 dead MEQs rounding down

So against MEQs, the one unit Thousand Sons should have an advantage against, the Fire Warriors are only slightly worse when the target has no cover, and slightly better when the target does have cover. I don't think I need to point out how much better the Fire Warriors are compared to the Thousand Sons against GEQs or TEQs, so I won't bother. When 4+ or better cover becomes available, the numbers start to favour Fire Warriors even more heavily. As you can see, the numbers favour Fire Warriors, who also bring you almost three times the number of scoring bodies. Besides, you will likely a see a lot more xenos armies than you did previously, meaning those Fire Warriors have a lot more uses than the Thousand Sons.

[lattd]

Learn, you need to remember that those sons will probably stay on the board longer, and can although not ideally fight in close combat.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Good math!
I am approving.
But, at the same time, this says to me that 1Ksons ARE better than FW at killing MEQ out of cover.
And therefore I am pleased to be partially vindicated.
And in game terms 1 high power shooting unit (which is what they're both designed to be) should be about as good as another.
They are "balanced" pt/pt vs tau at this role.
How about Vespid? Since they are the Tau MEQ killer, and are non-scoring (same as TS without a Sorc Warlord).

[Learn2Eel]

CSM codex is a solid codex. People need to use more imagination in creating lists and make better tactical choices on the board.

The problem everyone has with Chaos Space Marines actually isn't related to winning games, more-so to the tools you use in each game. I've seen a lot of players with no concern at all for tournament players cry foul over the current codex because it doesn't give them what they need to accurately represent their ideal army. Take Alpha Legion for example, they are really hit worst of all by the codices; there is no accurate way to represent them at the moment. I win games just fine with Chaos Marines against Tau and the like, that isn't the issue. The issue is that players don't like being actively forced into the same build by a codex with terrible internal balance. I like the book and all, but it just doesn't match up to Eldar for me as both a gamer and hobbyist.


Learn, you need to remember that those sons will probably stay on the board longer, and can although not ideally fight in close combat.

Ten Thousand Sons will survive cover-ignoring AP4 or better weapons longer, sure, but those Fire Warriors are spread out a lot more and have a lot more wounds to share around. So realistically, the Fire Warriors will be around longer, even if they lose models at a faster rate. Fire Warriors also have the range advantage.
I don't know if you've noticed, but twenty nine Fire Warriors will put up a much better fight in combat than ten Thousand Sons overall. They both have one attack each, Fire Warriors have -2 to Weapon Skill and Initiative, but have defensive grenades and easily accessed haywire grenades. In that sense, they are actually better equipped to deal with any enemy that isn't afraid of a few force weapon attacks, and that is in combat for crying out loud.


Good math!
I am approving.
But, at the same time, this says to me that 1Ksons ARE better than FW at killing MEQ out of cover.
And therefore I am pleased to be partially vindicated.
And in game terms 1 high power shooting unit (which is what they're both designed to be) should be about as good as another.
They are "balanced" pt/pt vs tau at this role.
How about Vespid? Since they are the Tau MEQ killer, and are non-scoring (same as TS without a Sorc Warlord).

But only by the skin of their teeth, and the disparity between the two units at long range (Fire Warriors have an extra 6" to work with) and against any other kind of unit (TEQ and GEQ, monsters, light vehicles, etc) is too significant to ignore. Fire Warriors are hardly the Tau equivalent of a power shooting unit, theirs would be either Broadsides or Crisis Teams if you are keeping it in the same boat as Thousand Sons. Fire Warriors are the cheap as chips and reliable basic foot soldier for Tau. On that note, don't even bother trying to compare three Crisis Suits with dual missile pods to a bare-bones Thousand Sons unit (equivalent points). The damage difference and potential targets to engage swing so heavily in favour of the Crisis Suits that even the boosted durability of the Thousand Sons really doesn't save them at all.

I don't have my Tau codex on me so some of the stats may be wrong but ten Vespid is the same price as five Rubric Marines and an Aspiring Sorcerer rounding down, so here goes;

Shooting against typical MEQs, assume 18" (Vespid range advantage), no cover available
Thousand Sons; BS4 six shots, four hits, two wounds, 2 dead MEQs
Vespid; BS3 ten shots, five hits, three wounds rounding up, 3 dead MEQs

Shooting against typical MEQs, assume 12", no cover available
Thousand Sons; BS4 eleven shots, seven hits rounding up, four wounds rounding up, 4 dead MEQs
Vespid; BS3 ten shots, five hits, three wounds rounding up, 3 dead MEQs

I would give the advantage to Vespid here because of the range difference, and Strength 5 means they can harm light vehicles and more reliably damage monsters or units such as Plague Marines. As well, they are a far, far better unit in combat, and are literally twice as fast. Vespid are Jump Infantry with Fleet and Move Through Cover!

[Denzark]

actually there are an awful lot of things. Emperors Children warbands act nothing like the legion did, World Eaters are very different, Thousand Sons are very different. Iron Warriors look much the same, but have their traits like paranoia greatly increased. You need to distinguish the pre heresy/during heresy legion, and the chaos legions post heresy, which are hugely different. A trait system like the loyalist marines would be great, but it is completely and utterly untrue to say the chaos warbands are just the legions.

The difference in strength legion to warband, is not what makes the automatic difference. Yes pre/post heresy makes a difference- although a semantics of words here - pre-heresy means before, post means after, so there must be a period mid-heresy when the actual changes happen.

I disagree all those legions are different ... in tactical outlook. World Eaters 'Thang' is psycho surgery and massed close assault. No change. Thousand Sons - proscribed magic. Yes they use it to keep suits full of dust boogeying, but the root is magic. No change. Alpha Legions - deceit, proxies, misguided allies and disguise. No change. Night Lords - terror troops. No change. Iron Warriors - Siege. No change. The only 2 with significant change, is Noise Marines for EC - although this happens mid-heresy in an on board ship orgy, so, that is how EC attacked the palace, and that is how they do business now so... I can't really comment on Black Legion/Luna Wolves/SoH. Because the whole point of Black Legion was to step away from Sons of Horus - change is their raison d'etre.

So, a warband where any of the dominant leaders are 'true' traitor legionnaires, by which I mean guys who originally were present during the HH, will act like the legion did then. I acknowledge that Chaos Marines, which could be rebels, or new traitors, ie Astral Claws - wouldn't. Those inducted into Traitor legions post HH must have been indoctrinated into their legion's normal combat dogma, there may be variances but it won't be that much.

[Learn2Eel]

Just on the side, I wished they changed Berzerkers to reflect Khorne's ideal of martial prowess, as Khorne Daemons now do. Can we have WS5 BS5 Berzerkers with boltguns please, ala Death Company?

[lattd]

Agree WS5 on berzerkers makes sense, but I don't understand why Khorne suddenly has super marksmen? I thought his thing was close combat slaughter fest? Maybe Sons as BS5, Noise marines I5 and Nurgle T5, not a chaos player so some of these have already happened. I think the combat doctrines are now determined by their God rather than there training? or thats always been my understanding.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

World Eaters 'Thang' is psycho surgery and massed close assault.

How can you not mention the whole "devoted utterly to Khorne" thing? It's far more than just psycho-surgery by the time one gets to the 40k era.

[Denzark]

How can you not mention the whole "devoted utterly to Khorne" thing? It's far more than just psycho-surgery by the time one gets to the 40k era.

Because I am discussing what has not changed in the legion's make up. The Khorne Worship was a natural by product of being frothing looney psychos who liked hand to hand. That is why they gravitated to Khorne.

[phreakachu]

Because I am discussing what has not changed in the legion's make up. The Khorne Worship was a natural by product of being frothing looney psychos who liked hand to hand. That is why they gravitated to Khorne.

Agreed: I think that even before Erebus introduced the concept of Khorne, the WE's were pretty much worshiping the Blood God by deed, if not conscious thought. Its fluffed that martial honor and pride feed Khorne. The World Eaters were already about wholesale close quarters slaughter in the height of the Crusade. iirc: "worlds would surrender rrather than face the World Eaters".
Keep in mind that the worship of chaos is so insidious that mortals doing actions in line with one of the God's ideals give that God power.

[Power Klawz]

I just think its being a little understated here that you've got a 50% chance to roll THE DOOMBOLT for your aspiring sorcerer, and THE DOOMBOLT does not play.

Not even a little bit.

(Seriously, it will kill all the things.)

The primaris power for Tzeentch isn't entirely terrible either (especially against horde type armies, which you probably shouldn't even think about taking Thousand Sons against but whatever man, its your Sunday afternoon) if you're lucky. Obviously THE DOOMBOLT is far superior.

That other one where you can punch yourself in the crotch until you either turn into chaos spawn or pass out from crotch pain... that is a bad psychic power.

(There is also the potential hilarity of your Wizard gibbing MC's and HQ's with his force weapon, made slightly more likely by his 4++ and possible Boon Swagger(TM)

There's a lot of valid criticism in this thread but in the end I find Thousand Sons to have that elusive quality of "fun." The kind of fun that can only be had by walking straight up mid-field, eating battlecannon shots and then washing them down with the tears of your enemy when you perforate his expensive toys and watch them explode into multi-colored warp confetti.

[Desert Rat]

Agree WS5 on berzerkers makes sense, but I don't understand why Khorne suddenly has super marksmen? I thought his thing was close combat slaughter fest? Maybe Sons as BS5, Noise marines I5 and Nurgle T5, not a chaos player so some of these have already happened. I think the combat doctrines are now determined by their God rather than there training? or thats always been my understanding.
If I remember right khorne is the god of blood letting, war, and murder. I can see troops under his banner as marksmen. Game wise I could see being able to choose either +1 ws or bs. The thing that makes berserkers hand to hand nuts is the psycho surgery and implants.

[Deadlift]

If I remember right khorne is the god of blood letting, war, and murder. I can see troops under his banner as marksmen. Game wise I could see being able to choose either +1 ws or bs. The thing that makes berserkers hand to hand nuts is the psycho surgery and implants.

Agreed, it's blood for the blood god, I don't think he cares how he gets it.

[Learn2Eel]

Agree WS5 on berzerkers makes sense, but I don't understand why Khorne suddenly has super marksmen? I thought his thing was close combat slaughter fest? Maybe Sons as BS5, Noise marines I5 and Nurgle T5, not a chaos player so some of these have already happened. I think the combat doctrines are now determined by their God rather than there training? or thats always been my understanding.

The fluff behind Khorne now reflects martial prowess in all aspects of warfare, hence the Skull Cannon and Khorne Daemons having the same WS and BS. As well, World Eaters have always fought first with bolters and then dropped them to charge into combat. They were already crazy butchers before their dedication to Khorne, so I don't see why they would suddenly stop using their bolters.


I just think its being a little understated here that you've got a 50% chance to roll THE DOOMBOLT for your aspiring sorcerer, and THE DOOMBOLT does not play.

Not even a little bit.

(Seriously, it will kill all the things.)

The primaris power for Tzeentch isn't entirely terrible either (especially against horde type armies, which you probably shouldn't even think about taking Thousand Sons against but whatever man, its your Sunday afternoon) if you're lucky. Obviously THE DOOMBOLT is far superior.

That other one where you can punch yourself in the crotch until you either turn into chaos spawn or pass out from crotch pain... that is a bad psychic power.

(There is also the potential hilarity of your Wizard gibbing MC's and HQ's with his force weapon, made slightly more likely by his 4++ and possible Boon Swagger(TM)

There's a lot of valid criticism in this thread but in the end I find Thousand Sons to have that elusive quality of "fun." The kind of fun that can only be had by walking straight up mid-field, eating battlecannon shots and then washing them down with the tears of your enemy when you perforate his expensive toys and watch them explode into multi-colored warp confetti.

I've played a lot of games (an understatement) with Thousand Sons in 6th, and trust me, Doombolt isn't that great. For one, because it is a beam you have to either keep an awkward concave formation or put the Aspiring Sorcerer at or near the front, making him incredibly vulnerable. Secondly, it is unreliable and with easily accessed cover it actually doesn't kill as much as you would think. Thirdly, if you use it to shoot at a vehicle or Terminators for example, then you are wasting the rest of the Thousand Sons unit. The primaris is ok, but unreliable, and being a small blast template at BS4 will probably never hit much assuming your opponent knows how to space their models out.

Mind you though, if you can get a good spread with either - particularly Doombolt against a unit out of cover, and the primaris against light infantry such as Pathfinders - they do justify the cost of the Sorcerer pretty quickly. I find though that between taking a psychic test and risking Perils (I run two Thousand Sons units at a time, and have lost at least one of my Sorcerers to Perils in each game), Deny the Witch, actually getting good hits in, trying to get past any applicable saves - especially cover - and making sure not to invalidate the rest of the unit, I don't think the powers are all that crash hot. Now, compare the Aspiring Sorcerer as he is now to if he had access to at the bare minimum Divination. Poof, even if the unit still isn't great, all of a sudden you can get handy powers in your army that you actually want.

I found your comment about taking Thousand Sons against hordes interesting, not because I agree completely, but because I take Thousand Sons as part of my all-comers lists. I don't list tailor and I generally switch my army lists before I know what I am facing; I switch army lists to try out new combos or play with new toys, not to tailor to my opponent. And this is where you really start to notice how bad Thousand Sons are; unless you are playing on a small board with little terrain available, they simply don't do nearly enough damage to make their points back. On the flip side, unless you are playing against another elite army such as Wraithwall, your 4+ invulnerable save won't prove to be worthwhile at all.

There's no doubt they are fun. However, they aren't "fun with a competitive edge". Contrast them to Swooping Hawks, hardly the top choice in the Eldar fast attack slot. They are fun; they are a troll unit that slaughters light infantry of all kinds with their grenade packs and guns, they reave vehicles with all their haywire grenades, they deep strike without scatter, they can blind units with an upgrade on the Exarch, and they can deep strike out of dodge at a moments notice. The unit rewards faith in them and smart tactics; they are a very well balanced and effective unit, and fun as hell to really test the patience of opponents. As fun as it can be for my Thousand Sons to slaughter poor Loyalists, they don't do it - or anything else - well enough to actually justify their inclusion in my force. And that could be seen as the big contrast between Chaos Marines and Eldar for example. The CSM book mostly punishes "themed" builds such as Thousand Sons, the Eldar book doesn't.

[Power Klawz]

I'm certainly not saying that Thousand Sons are top tier, Shin Akuma Bossgods, hell I'm not even saying they're even all that good (obviously you've made that point several times over in this thread alone.) I just find it sort of irksome that the general criticisms levied against them is that lots of bullets will kill them and they cost too many points. Obviously the first is true and the second is a matter of opinion more than objective fact, they're worth however many points the individual is or isn't willing to pay for them.

I think the main thing keeping them down is that they are overly specialized into a niche that is, demonstrably, better filled by cheaper things (ie: rapid firing CSM or even cultist blobs to a lesser extent.) They're supposed to kill things in power armor while soaking high AP weaponry. Problem being who would waste high ap weapons on them? And against cover, they're still rocking boltguns.

Functionally this means that, under normal circumstances (ie: when they're shooting at things in cover and being shot at by things that aren't ap3) they're not much more deadly or survivable than bog standard CSM despite being substantially more expensive. Although this largely depends on what sort of cover their targets have. Obviously if its 3+ cover they're not any more effective, but I don't think its standard practice to flood a board with 3+ cover everywhere. Its more likely to be 4+ or 5+, and in that respect they're still deadlier than normal bolters since they'd always allow the full 3+.

Nothing can really save you from massed bolter/flashlight/pulse spam. Unless you have an astronomically high toughness value or are a vehicle, standard infantry weapons will inevitably kill you. This isn't an inherent weakness to Thousand Sons, but of the system itself. The argument then becomes why am I paying almost double for something that dies just as fast to the stuff that's going to be trying to kill it. This is a fair argument, but I think one that fails to mention the effect that a 4++ has on target priority. For one, anti-MEQ is a dedicated niche that most armies have. While Thouand Sons are not totally unaffected by ap3 fire, the fact that at worst you're only increasing your kill chance by about 17% instead of 66% should make your opponent prioritize his AP3 shooting differently, despite the fact that your Thousand Sons pose a more serious mid-ranged threat than normal bolter toting marines. Obviously wasting low fire volume, high AP shots on them is also off the table so long as there's anything else on the table worth shooting at with lascannons and whatnot, but that's also true for most infantry so its not as if the 4++ is the main motivator behind that, why waste a S9 shot on a single wound model worth less than 40 points?

What their 4++ really does is dissuade area of effect weapons, the massively devastating, cover ignoring, ap3 sort that seem to find their way into every list. The dreaded hellturkeys and battlecannons of outrageous fortune. These are the sorts of things that reliably wipe MEQ units off the table, cover be damned. Obviously you'll be prioritizing these targets high on your "must die now" list, but they always seem to get at least one good shot off before you send them to the great beyond, and that one shot can be more than enough to ruin your day. So the tools your opponent has that best kill MEQ (other than massed infantry shooting, which as has been stated kills everything anyways so why worry about it?) can't effectively be brought to bear against Thousand Sons. So your opponent has to decide whether to roll the dice on hoping you fail those 50% saves against his Leman Russ's, or choosing another target and leaving your AP3 androids unmolested.

Which leads us to why that can be a very bad idea. As an offensive unit Thousand Sons don't really shine. As has been stated, they lack impressive close combat statlines and the almighty assault grenades (which I've been assured no truly useful assault unit ever leaves home without, EVER) which makes it rather difficult for them to do much more than keep dangerous units tied up for a few turns. Its unlikely (though not impossible, they're not that much worse than tactical marines in a scuffle, especially after the first turn where it won't matter if they charged into cover or not.) they'll win any decisive hand to hand victories, but that's not what you bought them for. As has been stated, the enemy will still get cover saves against their shooting, so they will be less effective than they would be against enemies out in the open. Ok, I don't really see how that's a unique weakness or even a weakness at all, but its a fact that they're less effective against units in cover (like 90%+ of all units in the game, but I digress) and less efficient the worse the enemy's armor save (unless they're 2+, in which case they're bolters on 24 point dudes.)

All this suggests that they'll shine in 2 specific circumstances. One as a purely defensive unit backing up an objective holding unit. Parked in the right spot with a clear view of no-man's land leading up to an objective, they effectively radiate a 12" (and to a lesser extent, 24") bubble of "nope." Of course this is dependent on the battlefield set up, but you can generally find an area where the enemy will be forced to traverse coverless ground to get to an objective, and that's where you park these guys. Now your opponent basically has to throw away an entire unit to make a credible grab for the objective, deep strikers might as well paint targets on their heads. It makes it a very scary objective, one that can't be made safe by simply pressing the ordnance button.

The second use is as a reactionay troubleshooting force. Bundled up in a rhino and stationed on a threatened flank, waiting for an enemy unit to overextend or get blasted out of their transport then wham, hit the gas and pile out, open fire, watch MEQ go poof. Laugh off return fire because you're marines with magic forcefields, get back into the rhino if its still in one piece, do it again.


I think they're more versatile than berserkers (although berserkers are generally considered to be the other losers in the cult marine lottery, while Nurgle and Slaanesh dance around being amazing.) but obviously lack the tactical mutability of Noise marines, or the sheer ridiculousness of Plague Marines. They're better at what they do, point for point, than any of the other three however, its just that what they do is specifically kill MEQ without cover at 12 inches, so the focus is a bit narrow.

I also think you're selling THE DOOMBOLT short because its super awesome. It does take a lot of finesse to get the most out of it of course, and it won't reliably pop Land Raiders or anything, but as far as psychic laser beams go its got a good amount of utility and killing power for a measly 1 warp charge ability that's available to a squad leader. Plus it lets you threaten TEQ, especially deep striking TEQ that are all bunched up. A str8 AP1 18 inch beam can't be a bad thing, and depending on the target it might even be worth shooting through one of your guys to line up the most targets, after all you've got a 4++ anyways right? Killing 120+ points worth of termies is worth a 50% chance at blowing up one of your own dudes I think.

Also if you do fire THE DOOMBOLT at TEQ its not as if the rest of the squad "wastes" its shots, they're still boltguns. Boltguns still kill terminators about as well as any other infantry weapons.

All that being said, I think if I were going to "fix" Thousand Sons I'd just bump the invuln up to 3++ and give them the option to take AP3 heavy bolters on a 1 in 5 basis. This would kind of make them inverse Damned Legionaries or something, maybe bump them up to 26 points. Or do what was suggested earlier and make the sorcerer optional, keep them slow and purposeful without the sorcerer but make them relentless with, ap3 overwatch would be tasty.

[Mr.hardrada]

I see people are talking about legions vs there are no legions. I believe in the end of the 13th crusade the Night Lords were reuniting as were other Legions. The one legion that I imagine having the most trouble reuniting is the World Eaters but when Angron decides to get stuff done they seem to get together(like a millennial family get-together with skull collecting). So to say that that C:CSM doesn't deserve Legion traits isn't the greatest argument. I personally feel that the Legion players might have a difficult time representing their forces. I think Space Marines got a good codex as their playerbase seems to be pretty happy.

[Denzark]

I have taken the discussion on Khorne/Worldeaters to here, to not try and steal this topic...

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?35513-The-methodology-of-Khorne&p=347013#post347013

[Learn2Eel]

I'm certainly not saying that Thousand Sons are top tier, Shin Akuma Bossgods, hell I'm not even saying they're even all that good (obviously you've made that point several times over in this thread alone.) I just find it sort of irksome that the general criticisms levied against them is that lots of bullets will kill them and they cost too many points. Obviously the first is true and the second is a matter of opinion more than objective fact, they're worth however many points the individual is or isn't willing to pay for them.

The main criticism against Thousand Sons besides those two is actually their damage potential. You are paying a premium for AP3 in a codex where you can get it for cheaper and better from a Noise Marine unit, a character with the Burning Brand or a Heldrake. Go figure. Thousand Sons really do not do that much damage. A large squad of them will catch Space Marines out in the open in rapid fire range once in a blue moon. Sure, it is nice when it happens, but it is so rare that you may as well just take close to 60 Cultists for the same points cost as ten Thousand Sons, and the Cultists will do better in almost any situation as a whole in the 6th Edition context.


I think the main thing keeping them down is that they are overly specialized into a niche that is, demonstrably, better filled by cheaper things (ie: rapid firing CSM or even cultist blobs to a lesser extent.) They're supposed to kill things in power armor while soaking high AP weaponry. Problem being who would waste high ap weapons on them? And against cover, they're still rocking boltguns.

They are overly specialized into a niche that isn't required in 6th Edition, and that is ironically better filled by a Noise Marine squad that is also scoring and generally more durable with an Icon of Excess. And a similar sized unit with those upgrades is cheaper at the same squad size if I remember correctly, or close enough. Pretty much I agree with you here.


Functionally this means that, under normal circumstances (ie: when they're shooting at things in cover and being shot at by things that aren't ap3) they're not much more deadly or survivable than bog standard CSM despite being substantially more expensive. Although this largely depends on what sort of cover their targets have. Obviously if its 3+ cover they're not any more effective, but I don't think its standard practice to flood a board with 3+ cover everywhere. Its more likely to be 4+ or 5+, and in that respect they're still deadlier than normal bolters since they'd always allow the full 3+.

But the problem is that even if they are deadlier when taken against 4+ or 5+ cover, you are still paying a lot more points per shot and thus the net damage results are the same or similar enough that the price difference simply isn't justified. Here's the math to prove it between the equivalent points in Thousand Sons versus basic Chaos Space Marines;

Shooting at MEQs in 5+ cover, assume rapid fire
Ten Thousand Sons (260) - nineteen shots at BS4, six miss rounding down, thirteen hits, six wounds rounding down, 4 dead MEQs
Nineteen Chaos Marines (257) - thirty eight shots at BS4, thirteen miss rounding up, twenty five hits, twelve wounds rounding down, 4 dead MEQs

Shooting at MEQs in 4+ cover, assume rapid fire
Ten Thousand Sons (260) - 3 dead MEQs
Nineteen Chaos Marines (257) - 4 dead MEQs

So even in low cover, the Chaos Marines are basically the same if not better. Even the over-priced basic Troop in the same codex does anti-MEQ better than Thousand Sons, particularly when special weapons are thrown in.


Nothing can really save you from massed bolter/flashlight/pulse spam. Unless you have an astronomically high toughness value or are a vehicle, standard infantry weapons will inevitably kill you. This isn't an inherent weakness to Thousand Sons, but of the system itself. The argument then becomes why am I paying almost double for something that dies just as fast to the stuff that's going to be trying to kill it. This is a fair argument, but I think one that fails to mention the effect that a 4++ has on target priority. For one, anti-MEQ is a dedicated niche that most armies have. While Thouand Sons are not totally unaffected by ap3 fire, the fact that at worst you're only increasing your kill chance by about 17% instead of 66% should make your opponent prioritize his AP3 shooting differently, despite the fact that your Thousand Sons pose a more serious mid-ranged threat than normal bolter toting marines. Obviously wasting low fire volume, high AP shots on them is also off the table so long as there's anything else on the table worth shooting at with lascannons and whatnot, but that's also true for most infantry so its not as if the 4++ is the main motivator behind that, why waste a S9 shot on a single wound model worth less than 40 points?

The problem with the anti-AP3 argument that Thousand Sons survive it as that a squad of ten hit by a Heldrake will still lose four or five models assuming average rolls, whereas regular MEQs would like about nine. When you think about, there isn't that much of a difference, especially because you can get almost fifteen MEQs with upgrades for the same cost as one Thousand Sons squad of a decent size. The target priority for a player only becomes an issue in games where you have a lot of targets, and with Thousand Sons in the fray, that simply isn't possible because they up way too many points. Take two fluffy nine-man units so you don't concede First Blood easily, and take a Rhino or Infiltrate them as you suggest, and you are looking at bare minimum 480 points or so just for two medium sized scoring units. That is absolutely too much of an army list for units that don't give you good value for points. They don't do as much damage as the equivalent points in other Troops would, particularly when heavy weapons and krak grenades allow them to more effectively engage monstrous creatures and vehicles, while the 4+ invulnerable save realistically won't save them as much as having a lot more ablative wounds would. And hell, if your opponent isn't using those AP3 large blast/template weapons on the Thousand Sons, they will be going after your other infantry (as taking more than two Thousand Sons units in any army list effectively leaves you bare for things like Elites and Heavy Support) and vehicles as well. Why do you think Ionheads and Riptides work so well? They can alternate between different firing modes and just shoot your monsters and vehicles instead. So really, what are you gaining in terms of target saturation by taking Thousand Sons? Less units for your opponent to get through to grab objectives? No-one in their right mind shoots lascannons at Thousand Sons unless they are the only thing on the board so that is a moot point.


What their 4++ really does is dissuade area of effect weapons, the massively devastating, cover ignoring, ap3 sort that seem to find their way into every list. The dreaded hellturkeys and battlecannons of outrageous fortune. These are the sorts of things that reliably wipe MEQ units off the table, cover be damned. Obviously you'll be prioritizing these targets high on your "must die now" list, but they always seem to get at least one good shot off before you send them to the great beyond, and that one shot can be more than enough to ruin your day. So the tools your opponent has that best kill MEQ (other than massed infantry shooting, which as has been stated kills everything anyways so why worry about it?) can't effectively be brought to bear against Thousand Sons. So your opponent has to decide whether to roll the dice on hoping you fail those 50% saves against his Leman Russ's, or choosing another target and leaving your AP3 androids unmolested.

And this here is the big problem. A Thousand Sons unit hit by a battle cannon will still lose half of its models, when two squads of nine or ten for the same price as ten Rubrics would still have at least one separate squad left. I don't see the advantage here, particularly when you need lots of scoring units to win games in an objective-oriented edition. As well, a smart opponent will recognized that Thousand Sons have no reliable method of dealing with vehicles or monstrous creatures and just them to harass and lock them down. Simple. Beyond that, they won't be scared of the AP3 boltguns. Marines might be, but if they are in cover, not so much. Other armies don't give a rats about the AP3. It is just less models for them to kill.


Which leads us to why that can be a very bad idea. As an offensive unit Thousand Sons don't really shine. As has been stated, they lack impressive close combat statlines and the almighty assault grenades (which I've been assured no truly useful assault unit ever leaves home without, EVER) which makes it rather difficult for them to do much more than keep dangerous units tied up for a few turns. Its unlikely (though not impossible, they're not that much worse than tactical marines in a scuffle, especially after the first turn where it won't matter if they charged into cover or not.) they'll win any decisive hand to hand victories, but that's not what you bought them for. As has been stated, the enemy will still get cover saves against their shooting, so they will be less effective than they would be against enemies out in the open. Ok, I don't really see how that's a unique weakness or even a weakness at all, but its a fact that they're less effective against units in cover (like 90%+ of all units in the game, but I digress) and less efficient the worse the enemy's armor save (unless they're 2+, in which case they're bolters on 24 point dudes.)

How can you not see the weakness in a dedicated MEQ hunter that is horrendously expensive not having the means to ignore easily accessed and usually strong cover saves? They can't do anything except hunt MEQs as that is all they have the tools to do. You can hope you get Doombolt and have one model in an expensive squad to hunt tanks in true Tactical Squad style. Otherwise, one of their best uses is tying up monstrous creatures - particularly ones that aren't characters - for as long as possible and maybe even getting a lucky force weapon wound through. That really is about all you can do with them. If they were a scary unit, then much like a Wraithknight, you could really actively use them to dictate the movement phase to your opponent. Sadly, most everyone isn't afraid at all of Thousand Sons and pretty much automatically notes that an army list featuring them is weakened as a result. Again, why would I bother with Thousand Sons when I can get other units to perform the same roles that they apparently are supposed to do, but better and for cheaper?


All this suggests that they'll shine in 2 specific circumstances. One as a purely defensive unit backing up an objective holding unit. Parked in the right spot with a clear view of no-man's land leading up to an objective, they effectively radiate a 12" (and to a lesser extent, 24") bubble of "nope." Of course this is dependent on the battlefield set up, but you can generally find an area where the enemy will be forced to traverse coverless ground to get to an objective, and that's where you park these guys. Now your opponent basically has to throw away an entire unit to make a credible grab for the objective, deep strikers might as well paint targets on their heads. It makes it a very scary objective, one that can't be made safe by simply pressing the ordnance button.

You know what would radiate a bubble of "nope"? Plague Marines. Why? They are Toughness 5, have Feel No Pain, Plague Knives, grenades of all sorts and a champion who probably won't kill himself every second game. If you want a defensive unit backing up an objective holding unit, Plague Marines are so much better for the cost. They can deal with monsters far better than Thousand Sons and survive almost as well or better depending on the monster, they don't pay for AP3 boltguns and are thus better against any other saving throw, they can have special weapons, they don't mind charging or being charged, they can deal with vehicles reliably and they are far more survivable against almost anything that you would throw at either unit. Why would I take Thousand Sons again? AP3 boltguns? In the hope that the enemy unit is on foot, an MEQ, and has no cover? What if they are in a Rhino? Or they are backed up by a Dreadnought, or worse yet, something like a Dreadknight? What if Terminators pop on down? What then?

You must not realize how mediocre Thousand Sons actually are in shooting. Is it just me, or do people only see AP3 and forget the S4? With over two hundred games of experience with Thousand Sons in both 5th and 6th, I will make it very clear; they do not do hit enough, wound enough or deny cover saves enough to justify their points cost. They do not do that much damage. I have caught Space Marine squads out in the open dozens of times and the average kills - five or six - doesn't really point to me as a great area denial or MEQ hunting unit when I could get better results from Chaos Marines or Noise Marines, and the former of those units is points-inefficient rather significantly! Especially when each Thousand Son lost, and trust me, you lose a lot to random bolter shots and the like - you know, the AP5 variety :rolleyes: - really hurts your damage potential. You can try allying in a Tzeentch Herald for Prescience, but something like Obliterators or a Forgefiend crave Prescience far more. They only start to do serious damage in rapid fire range, and any unit that actually gets into rapid fire range will also be getting into assault range, which is where the Thousand Sons throw up a blue flag and call it quits. Enemies won't throw away an entire unit to get an objective. They will throw a unit at the Thousand Sons that they can't deal with, or closes too quickly for them to manage it. Not being able to run means you will be stuck if your opponent sends a Maulerfiend, Assault Squad, Biker squad, Land Raider-mounted squad or anything of the sort at you - and that is just from MEQ armies! I shudder to think of the smile a Daemon player would have if they saw Thousand Sons across the board from their Flesh Hounds or Screamers. So even against a very select few armies, the Thousand Sons aren't that great in the role you describe, provided you are playing against someone who is a decent player. Against all the other armies, all you can do is prey they don't glare at you.

Ordnance button? Who needs Ordnance when I can get 160 points of Flesh Hounds into combat with that "back up" unit on turn two at the absolute latest and ignore them for the rest of the game?


The second use is as a reactionay troubleshooting force. Bundled up in a rhino and stationed on a threatened flank, waiting for an enemy unit to overextend or get blasted out of their transport then wham, hit the gas and pile out, open fire, watch MEQ go poof. Laugh off return fire because you're marines with magic forcefields, get back into the rhino if its still in one piece, do it again.

Can you answer me one question? In this role, why would I seriously take Thousand Sons over Plague Marines? Think about it. I won't even bother pointing out the logical fallacy of taking a less than mediocre dedicated MEQ unit and praying that an MEQ unit pops up.....Want to know what makes a good unit? A true MEQ hunter like Noise Marines are useful against everyone else too.


I think they're more versatile than berserkers (although berserkers are generally considered to be the other losers in the cult marine lottery, while Nurgle and Slaanesh dance around being amazing.) but obviously lack the tactical mutability of Noise marines, or the sheer ridiculousness of Plague Marines. They're better at what they do, point for point, than any of the other three however, its just that what they do is specifically kill MEQ without cover at 12 inches, so the focus is a bit narrow.

Being more versatile than Khorne Berzerkers is like saying you are more versatile than a one-trick pony. It really is that benign.

"They're better at what they do, point for point, than any of the other three however"
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130426152005/vampirediaries/images/5/5c/Jack-Nicholson-lol-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-1658.gif

Ok, let us look at what each unit is designed to do. Khorne Berzerkers; melee against a wide range of targets, specialty against light infantry. Noise Marines; short or long range shooting with ignores cover. Plague Marines; durable midfield scoring unit.

Khorne Berzerkers - Given that we have already seen that ten Thousand Sons kill six MEQs in their ideal situation (we assume the Thousand Sons are all in range, haven't taken casualties, etc), let's look at what ten Khorne Berzerkers do in their ideal situation first against MEQs, and then against GEQs. Given the 260 point cost of the Thousand Sons unit, we'll be kind and give the Skull Champion a power sword to make the Berzerkers 215 for ten.

Khorne Berzerkers charge, lose none in Overwatch (average against any kind of generic Tactical Squad really)
Champion - five WS5 attacks, three hits, S5 so two wounds, 2 dead MEQs so far
Berzerkers - thirty six WS5 attacks, twenty four hits, S5 so sixteen armour saves, 5 dead MEQs rounding down
So against MEQs, the points inefficient Berzerkers killed 7 MEQs, despite being 45 points cheaper than Thousand Sons. Now for GEQs...

Champion - five WS5 attacks, three hits, S5 so three wounds, 3 dead GEQs so far
Berzerkers - thirty six WS5 attacks, twenty four hits, S5 so twenty army saves, 4+ armour means 10 dead GEQs, 5+ armour means fourteen dead GEQs rounding up

So for less, they do their chosen role in their ideal conditions better than Thousand Sons do.

Noise Marines - As above, except this time we will go with two different builds. The close up ranged build, and the long range build. The short ranged build has one Doom Siren and that is it. The long range build has two Blastmasters and seven Sonic Blasters. The first build is 195 points, the second build 261 points. We'll demonstrate against MEQs first, and then against GEQs, and all of these units are in cover.

Short Ranged Build
Assuming optimal conditions as with previous examples, we will say the Noise Marines have a good spread of about five or six models for the doom siren, and the others are in rapid fire range.
Doom Siren - five hits at S5 AP3, 3 dead MEQs so far
Noise Marines - eighteen shots at BS4, six miss, twelve hits at S4, six wounds, 2 dead MEQs for a total of 5 dead MEQs.
This unit is seventy points cheaper than an equivalent sized Thousand Sons unit, and can get a Rhino to make up the difference. It is also far nastier on Overwatch - not just because they can, but the AP3 template as well.

Long Ranged Build
Ditto above, except within 24" so the Sonic Blasters can fire, remember that the Blastmasters would already be pounding units from 48" away. We'll give one direct hit and one average scatter of 3" to the Blastmasters.
Blastmaster 1 - scatters 3", hits one model, 1 dead MEQ so far
Blastmaster 2 - direct hit, hits three models, 3 dead MEQs for 4 dead in total so far
Sonic Blasters - twenty one shots at BS4, seven miss so fourteen hits, S4 so seven wounds, 3 dead MEQs rounding down for 7 dead in total

Wow, that long-ranged Noise Marine unit of the same model count as a Thousand Sons unit is only one point more and does more wounds at 24" with cover saves in effect than one point less worth of Thousand Sons do in rapid fire range with no cover allowed, not to mention the Blastmasters have 48" range and cause Pinning as well! Wait a minute, why am I taking Thousand Sons for AP3 bolters again?

I could stop there, but....

Against GEQs now, ditto above conditions
Blastmaster 1 - scatters 3", hits one model, 1 dead GEQ so far
Blastmaster 2 - direct hit, hits three models, 3 dead GEQs for 4 dead in total so far
Sonic Blasters - twenty one shots at BS4, seven miss so fourteen hits, S4 so ten wounds rounding down, 5 dead 4+ save GEQs rounding down for 9 dead in total, or 10 dead 5+ GEQs for 14 in total

Yeesh, Noise Marines eviscerate MEQs and GEQs (and TEQs by extension due to rate of fire) far better than Thousand Sons do for the same cost. They are also better in combat due to grenades and I5, can harm vehicles in shooting and combat, and cause Pinning tests to boot. Again, why would I take Thousand Sons instead?

Plague Marines - Now, the ideal situation for Plague Marines is survivability, so we can't really measure this as well as simple damage potential. Instead, we simply compare Plague Marines to Thousand Sons directly in terms of survivability against a range of different, popular units in the current meta. So let us begin!

Sixty shots from twenty Fire Warriors with the extra shot power from an Ethereal in rapid fire range, assuming no Markerlights (no one likes facing this)

Thousand Sons - Thirty hits, twenty wounds, seven failed armour saves rounding up, 7 dead Thousand Sons
Plague Marines - Thirty hits, fifteen wounds, five failed armour saves, three failed Feel No Pain rolls, 2 dead Plague Marines

We don't need to go any further. Everyone knows Plague Marines are infinitely more survivable than Thousand Sons against small arms fire. That alone is a big win for Plague Marines.

Over-charged Ion Cannon from one Hammerhead, assume Markerlight support, direct hit, all ten models touched, no cover saves in the first stat test, and then cover saves allowed in the second stat test (5+ cover)

Thousand Sons - Ten hits, nine wounds, five failed invulnerable saves rounding up, 5 dead Thousand Sons
Plague Marines - Ten hits, nine wounds, six failed Feel No Pain saves, 6 dead Plague Marines

Thousand Sons - Ten hits, nine wounds, five failed invulnerable saves rounding up, 5 dead Thousand Sons
Plague Marines - Ten hits, nine wounds, six failed 5+ cover saves, four failed Feel No Pain saves, 4 dead Plague Marines

Hmm. With any kind of cover, Plague Marines actually prove to be more survivable than Thousand Sons. Without cover, they are almost bang on as durable as Thousand Sons. Is the 4+ invulnerable save really helping here?

Baleflamer from one Heldrake, assume all ten models touched (important because of the S6)

Thousand Sons - Ten hits, nine wounds, five failed invulnerable saves rounding up, 5 dead Thousand Sons
Plague Marines - Ten hits, seven wounds rounding up, five failed Feel No Pain saves rounding up, 5 dead Plague Marines

On par durability. That really doesn't give the Thousand Sons a good rap.

Vindicator shell, assume no cover, assume all ten models touched (important because of the S10)

Thousand Sons - Ten hits, nine wounds, five failed invulnerable saves rounding up, 5 dead Thousand Sons
Plague Marines - Ten hits, nine wounds, 9 dead Plague Marines

This is really all you need to see that, including the previous data, Plague Marines are more survivable or as survivable as Thousand Sons against a lot of armour ignoring weapons, their only real deficiency coming from S10 weapons.

Can you please explain to me how exactly you came to the conclusion that Thousand Sons are "better at what they do, point for point, than any of the other three however"?



I also think you're selling THE DOOMBOLT short because its super awesome. It does take a lot of finesse to get the most out of it of course, and it won't reliably pop Land Raiders or anything, but as far as psychic laser beams go its got a good amount of utility and killing power for a measly 1 warp charge ability that's available to a squad leader. Plus it lets you threaten TEQ, especially deep striking TEQ that are all bunched up. A str8 AP1 18 inch beam can't be a bad thing, and depending on the target it might even be worth shooting through one of your guys to line up the most targets, after all you've got a 4++ anyways right? Killing 120+ points worth of termies is worth a 50% chance at blowing up one of your own dudes I think.

This is the problem. The Aspiring Sorcerer is already expensive, fragile and thus you really shouldn't have to go out of your way extensively just so he can get a few hits with a power he may not even roll up. It can't pop Land Raiders as it is only S8. You have to remember that beams are very thin, and TEQ get their invulnerable saves anyway. If they are Chaos Terminators, congratulations, you just killed a cheap suicide unit that has already done their job, or if not, they are there just as an annoyance from then on. If they are regular Terminators, the same likely applies, though they are likely to run to spread out if they aren't in a good position. If they are Assault Terminators, they will run anyway and so reduce the hits the beam will get. That really doesn't smack of great value to me. It isn't a bad power, but the medium range and the ease of killing the Aspiring Sorcerer through Precision shots and Barrage weapons, as well as Perils, is just too much of a deterrent. Between Deny the Witch and Shadow in the Warp, getting the power off and even having a good target to use it on are no guarantees.


Also if you do fire THE DOOMBOLT at TEQ its not as if the rest of the squad "wastes" its shots, they're still boltguns. Boltguns still kill terminators about as well as any other infantry weapons.

Haven't you spent most of this post telling me just how "effective" a dedicated MEQ hunter Thousand Sons are? They are ineffective against Terminators because they don't have the rate of fire like regular Chaos Space Marines or Tacticals do to really force a lot of armour saves.


All that being said, I think if I were going to "fix" Thousand Sons I'd just bump the invuln up to 3++ and give them the option to take AP3 heavy bolters on a 1 in 5 basis. This would kind of make them inverse Damned Legionaries or something, maybe bump them up to 26 points. Or do what was suggested earlier and make the sorcerer optional, keep them slow and purposeful without the sorcerer but make them relentless with, ap3 overwatch would be tasty.

:confused: You want to 'fix' one of the least commonly used units in the Chaos Space Marine codex by boosting their invulnerable save and giving them a paid for upgrade to AP3 heavy bolters in limited numbers, and also perhaps bump them up in points base?

That is utterly inane, sorry to say (this isn't intended as an insult). Thousand Sons aren't taken because they still die too easily despite paying for boosted survivability, and they are outperformed at range against the only target they want to engage by other, cheaper units. Boosting their invulnerable save and giving them AP3 heavy bolters wouldn't fix anything, and by making them cost more, you would just re-enforce how bad they are. It will take a lot of work to fix them, and that way is most certainly not it. They are an elite unit that doesn't even give you the returns you would expect from an elite unit. Again, why would I want to take them outside of purely themed army lists? Where's the reward for taking them? I keep bringing them up, but my favourite Eldar unit, Swooping Hawks, are similar in the sense that they are an elite unit that generally fits into a theme, but they actually do reward you for taking them, by giving you a unit that is not out-performed in their role by the basic infantry in the same codex!

Apologies for the wall of text, but this thread has really just served to bring my frustration on the misrepresentation of both Thousand Sons and Khorne Berzerkers to a head. To put it simply, it isn't fair that Noise Marines and Plague Marines should be such great units that can be taken without compromising your list, while the other two do the exact opposite.

[Power Klawz]

Your math seems a bit off by virtue of expecting way too many hits from template and blast weapons. You're also not taking into account the aspiring sorc's shooting powers or soulblaze hits. I think you're basically using unrealistic circumstances to force an inaccurate conclusion.

Also I said that Thousand Sons are better at what THEY do, not at what everyone else does. I guess that is a bit misleading, but what I mean is that Thousand Sons kill more MEQ at rapid fire range than any of the other 3, barring ludicrously good template hits from Noise Marines (which, as you've stated, is unlikely if your opponent knows how to properly space his units, you can't use that argument to defang the potential of doombolt but then assume the same theoretical opponent is going to have all his marines in hug range for your Noise Marines.)

I also never said they were better units than the other 3, and I clearly pointed out that you'd get a better effect if you just took an equivalent amount of points worth of bolter bros. You're overstating my own arguments, I'm merely pointing out obvious uses for a less than stellar unit.

You continually ask the rhetorical question "Why would I take Thousand Sons," but the answer is obvious. You take them because you want to, after that what you do with them is a matter of tactical consideration. Obviously if you're just trying to make a list with the fewest weaknesses and most strengths against the widest variety of units you wouldn't use them, why would you?

But then again, why would you build a list like that? Its so boring, just spam heldrakes and obliterators, toss in some cultists and bam, you've got a tournament quality net-list. But who cares? I don't.

I'm going to take a look at your math more closely when I have my dex and rulebook with me later, but your numbers seem extremely skewed.

[Mr Mystery]

And don't just factor in averages....

Thousand Sons and CSM, on a model for model basis, hit and wound MEQ on the same roll. Now, lets say they both have a bad day at the office, and under roll for wounds. Every one from a Thousand Son ignores the armour. So even on a bad day, they are more reliable. Get jammy, hitting and wounding like a daemon? Even better day at the office....

[Power Klawz]

That is a good point, anytime you can remove a series of rolling from resolution you generally end up better off. Taking away armor saves is huge, as even a 5+ will sometimes surprise you when your opponent rolls 4 6's. Averages are a somewhat useful tool but the statistical variance of a 6 sided die is too great for them to be treated as law.

And as I stated in my previous post I think even your averages are way off.

[Mr Mystery]

When it comes to the number of dice we roll in a typical game, I feel Mathammer is largely a fools errand. Yes it gives you some idea of the outcome, but not enough to draw a firm conclusion around.

As Powerklawz says, removing a single stage (be it auto-hit, auto-wound or no save) alters things dramatically. For instance, lets go with absolute best case scenario dice rolling from the Chaos Player....yes this is unlikely, but bear with me....

10 Chaos Marines, rapid firing. 20 hits, 20 wounds. Then opponent rolls to save.....

10 Thousand Sons, rapid firing. 20 hits. 20 wounds. No saves are taken. Assuming the enemy aren't in cover....

Which is another boon of the Thousand Sons over other units. MEQ players will react to them, and seek cover. This gives them a controlling aspect many units simply lack. How do you factor that into your points assessment? It could be enough to discourage the enemy from going for a specific objective for a single turn. This allows you to react to this however you wish.

Now please nobody get the wrong end of the stick. I'm not here to call people out. I'm just adding things to the discussion pot! If it's something you've missed, it's not personal.

[Learn2Eel]

Your math seems a bit off by virtue of expecting way too many hits from template and blast weapons. You're also not taking into account the aspiring sorc's shooting powers or soulblaze hits. I think you're basically using unrealistic circumstances to force an inaccurate conclusion.

Ok, want to know why I was using full squads of ten Thousand Sons? Think about it. Look at the damage they were causing. Those ten Thousand Sons, in ideal conditions, killing about six MEQs out in the open in rapid fire range. Wow. What an amazing MEQ-hunting unit, that killed 84 points worth of models, maybe extras. Wow. What great damage potential.

I'll say it one more time. Even when you have the perfect setup for them, they don't do nearly enough. Stop looking at the AP3 and think about them in a game. I have played over two hundred games in a year of 5th Ed and a year of 6th Ed. On several occasions I have been in a situation such as that where all nine rapid fired, I had Doombolt (in either codex) off, and there was no cover. And guess what? I never, ever killed more than seven. Ever. Compare that to the Noise Marines I've used. They regularly wrack up body counts of eight or so in at least one volley in every game.

I'm not taking into account the Aspiring Sorcerer due to the fact that he has a 50% chance to roll up the power, he has to pass his psychic test, he has to get through Deny the Witch, and he has to be able to get a good spread of models. I'm hardly forcing unrealistic circumstances, I was giving the Thousand Sons every edge that you account for without getting too far into random rolls. And guess what? They still turned up on bottom! And if I did take him into account, how many models is he hitting? Remember what the width of a beam is. Five maybe, maybe an extra three kills, maybe, maybe. The Sorcerer too often either a) gets a bad power or b) doesn't get the chance to use it. For straight damage numbers, I am proving to you just how ineffective Thousand Sons really are, a point you still can't quite grasp.

As for Soul Blaze, you do realize that only the Primaris power does that, or the unit can pay for an Icon? Uh-huh.


Also I said that Thousand Sons are better at what THEY do, not at what everyone else does. I guess that is a bit misleading, but what I mean is that Thousand Sons kill more MEQ at rapid fire range than any of the other 3, barring ludicrously good template hits from Noise Marines (which, as you've stated, is unlikely if your opponent knows how to properly space his units, you can't use that argument to defang the potential of doombolt but then assume the same theoretical opponent is going to have all his marines in hug range for your Noise Marines.)

And I am here to tell you that no, they are not. Once in a blue moon when there is no cover and you have a lot of them in rapid fire range, you'll kill five or six. That's fine. Realistically, you lose half a wound for every Thousand Son that dies, and they die too darn fast in 6th Edition. Contrast that to Noise Marines with Blastmasters who are putting the pressure on from turn one on both vehicles and MEQs. Ask a player who plays on a board with a decent amount/normal amount of terrain what they fear more, blastmasters or Thousand Sons. I can guarantee you the answer will be Blastmasters. Every. Single. Time. Hell, if I want an AP3 hunter, I'll take the OVER-COSTED Chaos Space Marine who does the same job and gives me more ablative wounds!

There's a big difference between spreading out to avoid beams and spreading out to avoid blasts, you realize. I've played so many games with Doombolt and an opponent who actually studies positioning correctly moves them so that you can only get three maximum per beam. Base size really comes into play with both, particularly for blasts. Against 40mms, the beam works better, but against smaller/common bases, it is easier to get more hits with a blast. And then you can say the roll to hit for a blast has its equivalent in the psychic test and Deny the Witch.


I also never said they were better units than the other 3, and I clearly pointed out that you'd get a better effect if you just took an equivalent amount of points worth of bolter bros. You're overstating my own arguments, I'm merely pointing out obvious uses for a less than stellar unit.

Obvious uses for a less than stellar unit? How many games have you played with Thousand Sons, exactly? Pray tell. I want to hear it. I've played with them hundreds of times against Tau, Eldar, Marines of all varieties, Daemons, Dark Eldar and so on and so forth. I have faced Tyranid Nidzilla, Tau gunline, Guard gunline, Guard mech, Wave Serpent spam, footslogging Marines, mech Marines, mixed Marines, and all kinds of builds that I can't even remember. I've faced tournament players with Thousand Sons and I've had lots of games against armies they should work well against. And they simply don't. I have experimented with every kind of deployment, movement and ranged trick you can think of. I've used them as tarpits, as close ranged units, as mid ranged units, as objective campers, objective takers, babysitters; pretty much any role you can think of. I have playtested them into the ground. It has highlighted to me just how ineffective dedicated Marine killers are. S4 AP3 is crap without Ignores Cover or some form of re-roll. They are an elite unit that can't afford to take casualties but needs to be in the midfield to do anything at all other than be an expensive fire sink. Even at full strength, their damage output is mediocre. So don't try and hide behind "pointing out obvious uses for a less than stellar unit", because I have exhausted every tactic, strategy or list building theory to make them work. I win games with them, but it isn't because the Thousand Sons themselves were great, I just outwitted my opponents in general. The adage that generals win wars, not soldiers is true in the sense of 40K, but it doesn't mean you can't hamstring yourself by taking ineffective units. Are Thousand Sons useless though? Hell no. But they sure as hell don't help me as much as their price tag would suggest. It's like buying a $1000 Sunny Bay TV when I could spend $1200 and get a Sony TV. If you are already spending a lot, you may as well go for the best option - in this case, that would be Plague Marines or N


You continually ask the rhetorical question "Why would I take Thousand Sons," but the answer is obvious. You take them because you want to, after that what you do with them is a matter of tactical consideration. Obviously if you're just trying to make a list with the fewest weaknesses and most strengths against the widest variety of units you wouldn't use them, why would you?

But then again, why would you build a list like that? Its so boring, just spam heldrakes and obliterators, toss in some cultists and bam, you've got a tournament quality net-list. But who cares? I don't.

And this is exactly where I start to understand why Chaos players simply shake their heads half the time.

Ok. Here's the deal. I can take Thousand Sons to fit in my themed army. They suck, but I put up with it. I don't win as much as I could and I feel the constant nagging of under performance about the 'Sons.
Flip the coin now. I can take Plague Marines to fit in my themed army. They rock, but that doesn't concern me. I win a fair amount of games, and I feel like the Plague Marines help a lot, but don't win them for me.

Do you understand? If you do, then good, you see where me and every other Chaos player that doesn't play Death Guard or Emperors Children is coming from. If you don't, then I'm afraid there's not much left to say.

I don't care about winning games, and neither do all the Chaos Space Marine players you see criticizing their codex. Do you want to know why I am lambasting Thousand Sons here? Because I should NOT feel penalized for taking them. They don't fit the fluff, they aren't fun to play because they actively make my army worse and both my opponent and myself notice it, and no matter what I do with them, they simply never perform to my expectations for a unit of their price tag. Here's a test for you. Look at the models you like the most in the Chaos Space Marines book, throw them into an army list while trying to fit to a theme, and then criticize the list from a competitive standpoint. Do the same for Eldar. Observe the difference. If that is a bit too transparent, take a squad or two of Warp Talons, a pair of Forgefiends, Thousand Sons as Troops, Chosen with meltas in Rhinos, and Ahriman. Yay. Awesome models. Great background. An army list that can win games, but isn't fun to play because unless you really like a challenge, you put yourself at a disadvantage each time and you notice it. It is the sinking feeling of finding something you really like, and then only once you have committed to it, realizing that it is just painful and not at all what you wanted.

This is what Chaos Space Marine players are up in arms about, and exactly why I think the Eldar book is wonderfully well written. The Eldar book doesn't punish you for taking themed units. You don't think to yourself "gee that is a bad unit, but I'll take them anyway because I like them", instead it is "gee that unit has a specialty, I can use that in my army and they are cool as well!".

Is that enough for you? It is not about winning tournaments. It is about having well written rules that make me want to play Thousand Sons, not badly written rules that punish me for taking Thousand Sons.


I'm going to take a look at your math more closely when I have my dex and rulebook with me later, but your numbers seem extremely skewed.

They really aren't. You can keep living in dream land, but the simple truth that everyone who uses Thousand Sons has realized is that they do not do that much damage. I have random people come up to me and say "wow, those Thousand Sons are great!" And I respond with "why?" The response is usually "AP3 bolters!", and each time, I merely nod passively. I've done this argument to death. When the math-hammer blatantly favours other units or gives no real advantage to Thousand Sons, and they have no real use otherwise on the table-top, you start to wish the AP3 bolters weren't there.


And don't just factor in averages....

Thousand Sons and CSM, on a model for model basis, hit and wound MEQ on the same roll. Now, lets say they both have a bad day at the office, and under roll for wounds. Every one from a Thousand Son ignores the armour. So even on a bad day, they are more reliable. Get jammy, hitting and wounding like a daemon? Even better day at the office....

The problem with your example is that I can have about twice as many Chaos Marines as Thousand Sons, giving the better distribution to the Chaos Marines. It seems to be what everyone forgets. Thousand Sons don't have many models and thus can't do that much damage, and every model they lose hurts a lot more!


That is a good point, anytime you can remove a series of rolling from resolution you generally end up better off. Taking away armor saves is huge, as even a 5+ will sometimes surprise you when your opponent rolls 4 6's. Averages are a somewhat useful tool but the statistical variance of a 6 sided die is too great for them to be treated as law.

And as I stated in my previous post I think even your averages are way off.

They aren't. I even weighed the averages to favour the Thousand Sons as often as possible. I'm sorry, but it isn't me who is in denial about their damage output. I love them to death and I always will. I play with them despite how bad they are. The problem is, I don't feel excited when I use them. I feel bored, because I know they are never going to do anything truly exciting. They are going to do the same thing they always do. Be mediocre. My favourite Eldar unit, Swooping Hawks, are the complete opposite. They are a blast to play with and are really threatening, and they are hardly equivalent to Warp Spiders.


When it comes to the number of dice we roll in a typical game, I feel Mathammer is largely a fools errand. Yes it gives you some idea of the outcome, but not enough to draw a firm conclusion around.

As Powerklawz says, removing a single stage (be it auto-hit, auto-wound or no save) alters things dramatically. For instance, lets go with absolute best case scenario dice rolling from the Chaos Player....yes this is unlikely, but bear with me....

10 Chaos Marines, rapid firing. 20 hits, 20 wounds. Then opponent rolls to save.....

10 Thousand Sons, rapid firing. 20 hits. 20 wounds. No saves are taken. Assuming the enemy aren't in cover....

Which is another boon of the Thousand Sons over other units. MEQ players will react to them, and seek cover. This gives them a controlling aspect many units simply lack. How do you factor that into your points assessment? It could be enough to discourage the enemy from going for a specific objective for a single turn. This allows you to react to this however you wish.

Now please nobody get the wrong end of the stick. I'm not here to call people out. I'm just adding things to the discussion pot! If it's something you've missed, it's not personal.

Erm. You realize a Thousand Son squad is twice the cost of a Chaos Space Marine squad? Hate to burst your bubble there.

*sigh* Ok, let me explain to you why funneling MEQ units with Thousand Sons doesn't work. Funneling units works best to deny your opponent board control. This gives assault armies a huge advantage in decimating individual units at a time rather than facing the brunt of a combined defence head on. This is key to playing Tyranids well. Now tell me, where do Thousand Sons operate? In the midfield. Where do non-assault MEQs (i.e. the ones Thousand Sons want to be close to) operate? Hint; it usually isn't in the midfield for a good reason that has nothing to do with Thousand Sons. You want to know the more likely outcome of trying to funnel enemy units with Thousand Sons? Your Thousand Sons themselves being funneled because a Dreadnought looks at them twice. Seriously, does everyone forget they simply cannot engage vehicles in any meaningful sense, or most monstrous creatures for that matter? It is such a concern that it leads to the Thousand Sons themselves being funneled during deployment! You *must* deploy them so that they can get to MEQs as quickly as possible. You *must* go straight for MEQs because Tzeentch didn't think Thousand Sons should have methods of dealing with anything other than Space Marines. Hordes? Pah. Vehicles? Pah, unless you get very lucky with Doombolt and get close enough to use it without losing the Sorcerer to monofilament barrages and the like. Monstrous Creatures? Pah, unless they have are either not characters or have low Initiative and Attack values. Great, that big scary unit of Thousand Sons is itself scared of anything that isn't in squad sizes of ten or lower that also doesn't have 2+ armour. What a terrifying unit. My opponents are really going to be forced to move out of the way of such a juggernaught.

:rolleyes:

We can go on and on. You can say what you want and believe what you want, and that is fine. But please, stop pretending that you can even begin to say they are better at killing MEQs than most other units for the same cost, because that is simply wrong. My 200+ games worth of experience, as well as all of study of numerous battle reports and Tacticas says that you are better served getting Noise Marines as your elite ranged unit. And they are right.

[Popsical]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! Can we have a stickied thread in this forum section titled "My codex is crap because..."
And another titled "I play chaos space marines and they are crap because..."

Honestly bigred im serious, then the mods can move the moaning to the relevent thread.
This arguement goes round and round and round and round, on pretty much 25% of the forums threads for christs sake.
Boring.

[phreakachu]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! Can we have a stickied thread in this forum section titled "My codex is crap because..."
And another titled "I play chaos space marines and they are crap because..."

Honestly bigred im serious, then the mods can move the moaning to the relevent thread.
This arguement goes round and round and round and round, on pretty much 25% of the forums threads for christs sake.
Boring.

then dont read the thread. unless some psycho has your wife, kids and family pets at gun point forcing you to read this thread. then read on. unless you hate your wife and kids. I hate your wife and kids. ;)

[Popsical]

I hate you phreaky lol.
I didnt read the whole thread, i got thru 3 pages, then skipped to page 10 only to find the same old same old still going.
Its supposed to be a game balance discussion. It as usual has become a "chaos space maureens are crap because", thread.
It seems a regular forum theme for any new codex or balance thread to become, "chaos maureens are crap... wail!!!!!!"
Surely a sticky thread for them to moan endlessly would be the single most used thread ever.

[DarkLink]

Thousand sons suck. They are a terrible unit. Their only trick is having a force axe on the character with an invulnerable save, but that's a terrible way of tryin to kill MCs.

[Power Klawz]

Well you seem mad. But I'm still going to redo your math when I get home with all the pertinent variables for my own edification.

[Mr Mystery]

20 BS4 shots equates to 13 hits, rounding up. Which is 7 wounds, again rounding up.

Double this for 20 CSM with bolters...40 shots, 14 wounds, 5 casualties. All rounding up.

It's different of course if you round up.

But that still doesn't take into account spectacularly successful or duff rolls.

If in each example, you hit and wound with everything (I've done this once in a while!), then it's 20 dead from the Thousand Sons, and 27 for CSM.

Now, if you depend on just Thousand Sons, then yes your missing out. But the AP3 makes them a potent support unit. The units they can reliably drop tend to need to be reliably dropped. Say, Vanguard Veterans, or Chaos Chosen. You could depend on sheer weight of firepower to knack them, or look to AP3.

Thousand Sons do have their role to play!

[phreakachu]

agreed, mystery. I drop a unit of 5 on the table on occasions, especially in objective based games and especially especially if im seeing some MEQ on the other side of the board. Theyre great for keeping objectives *contested* and they tend to draw fire from marine armies.
Even with the saturation of AP3 around the whole of the grimdark these days, Units with a stock AP3 (ape?) weapon will see a deal of fire pointed their way: ignoring a unit can lead to unpleasantness a turn from now, so to speak.
Ive only managed to play 3 games since completing my unit of 5, but theyve proven their worth to me: Last game they saw action, they removed 4 out of 5 Ravenwing bikes in a turn of shooting (Doombolt does abide) with support of the combi bolter on their Rhino. my opponent then dedicated a dreadnaught and a second unit of bikes to their destruction: and that took him 2 turns

you cant put a points cost on the psychological aspect of a unit. the majority of marine players get all puckery when something arrives that slices through their vaunted 3+ en masse. Ive been playing for over a decade now and I still do it.

Pop, if they allowed a "Chaos player whinestavaganza" thread, it would crash the servers, if not the whole internets. thats why there isnt one.

[DarkLink]

Anecdotal evidence at its finest. With five shots, you kill .74 bikes on average dice. 1.5 in rapid fire range. Any unit is good if you roll hot and your opponent rolls poorly. A heldrake would do much more damage and draw a lot more firepower and is much more points efficient. Its barely more expensive, too.

[somerandomidiot]

It always amuses me when people who don't play Thousand Sons start telling people who do that Thousand Sons are good. I don't (and I don't think anyone really does) play them because they're effective- I play them despite the fact that they're overpriced and underperformers. Combine that with no support for a Thousand Sons army anywhere else in the codex, and it's really quite depressing...

[phreakachu]

if Chaos gets some sweet supplimental goodness... who knows?
Other than Dark Link. He knows all.

[Learn2Eel]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! Can we have a stickied thread in this forum section titled "My codex is crap because..."
And another titled "I play chaos space marines and they are crap because..."

Honestly bigred im serious, then the mods can move the moaning to the relevent thread.
This arguement goes round and round and round and round, on pretty much 25% of the forums threads for christs sake.
Boring.

You honestly think I am moaning? :rolleyes: No, I have been providing a slew of evidence to prove how structurally Thousand Sons simply do not work at what they are supposed to do, or much of anything really. You clearly haven't read my posts as all I have been doing is pointing out the deficiencies with my favourite unit in the Chaos Space Marines codex that I have loved, played and modeled since I got back into the hobby two to three years ago. Have I been saying the Chaos Space Marine codex sucks? No, all I have been saying is that compared to the Eldar book it doesn't do as good a job of rewarding you for taking themed lists. If you think that is moaning, then you haven't seen real moaning.


I hate you phreaky lol.
I didnt read the whole thread, i got thru 3 pages, then skipped to page 10 only to find the same old same old still going.
Its supposed to be a game balance discussion. It as usual has become a "chaos space maureens are crap because", thread.
It seems a regular forum theme for any new codex or balance thread to become, "chaos maureens are crap... wail!!!!!!"
Surely a sticky thread for them to moan endlessly would be the single most used thread ever.

How in the heck is this a "Chaos Space Marines are crap because" thread? Are you trolling? I have been pointing out through a combination of maths, weighted averages, personal experience with over two hundred games, and tactical analysis that Thousand Sons are neither good at killing MEQs or really good at much of anything, as opposed to what Power Klawz has been saying. I know from a plethora of experience, likely more than almost anyone on this forum, that you can't take them and expect them to prove their use as opposed to the generic - and very mediocre - Chaos Marine. I am pointing this out because I am disproving the fallacy that they are good at killing MEQs. They aren't. Noise Marines do it better, safer - long range - and more reliably, due to ignores cover on their guns, and often for less.

I have been one of the biggest proponents for Chaos Space Marines on this and other forums. I have gone through it and play tested everything extensively. It remains my primary force with close to 5000 points in total to its name. I enjoy the codex and see some strong builds from it, and some of the themed builds are actually fun to use and not middling - Plague Marines, Noise Marines and probably Iron Warriors do quite well at what they are supposed to do. Alpha Legion, World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Night Lords in particular aren't so hot. That doesn't mean I think the book sucks, I just don't think it is as well written as the Eldar and Tau books - and my perspective again has nothing to do with how the armies do in tournaments, but more how each unit choice fits the theme and plays - which is a very valid criticism. I like the book otherwise, I like it a lot. Unfortunately, it probably is a victim of being the first 6th Edition book, though.

To summarize; I tell people how to use Pyrovores well and justify their inclusion in an army. Saying I think my favourite army that got me back into the hobby sucks is flat out slander.


Thousand sons suck. They are a terrible unit. Their only trick is having a force axe on the character with an invulnerable save, but that's a terrible way of tryin to kill MCs.

Thank you! Someone who finally understands.


Well you seem mad. But I'm still going to redo your math when I get home with all the pertinent variables for my own edification.

I'm not mad dude. I'm disappointed, not mad. All this thread has done has bring up that disappointment I rightfully feel about the army (Thousand Sons, not Chaos Marines) that got me back into the hobby. I have been posting in a calm and logical manner, and have presented factual evidence backed up by numbers. If you don't want to accept that Noise Marines are better MEQ hunters in the same slot(s) for less, then you clearly haven't played against or used either unit that much. The facts do not lie.


20 BS4 shots equates to 13 hits, rounding up. Which is 7 wounds, again rounding up.

Double this for 20 CSM with bolters...40 shots, 14 wounds, 5 casualties. All rounding up.

It's different of course if you round up.

But that still doesn't take into account spectacularly successful or duff rolls.

If in each example, you hit and wound with everything (I've done this once in a while!), then it's 20 dead from the Thousand Sons, and 27 for CSM.

Now, if you depend on just Thousand Sons, then yes your missing out. But the AP3 makes them a potent support unit. The units they can reliably drop tend to need to be reliably dropped. Say, Vanguard Veterans, or Chaos Chosen. You could depend on sheer weight of firepower to knack them, or look to AP3.

Thousand Sons do have their role to play!

A "potent support unit" that costs a bare minimum 150 points for 5, or 260 for 10? That can't even reliably kill the units you describe at long range, cover or no, and is only likely to kill half of such a squad? Who takes Vanguard and Chosen that often anyway, and outside of a transport? If the Vanguard have jump packs, they have a huge movement advantage over the Thousand Sons anyway and can abuse cover or simply go for other targets. Sure, you can say this is "funneling" units, but it doesn't work out as you would think when a lone Ironclad jumping out of a Drop Pod effectively seals the fate of your Thousand Sons from turn one.

They don't have their role to play, because sheer weight of fire will more reliably drop such units. Why? Dice rolling! The more dice you roll, the better your chances. It is the law of dice. Elite units are set up to fail, which is why I don't bother with Terminators anymore because when you are forced to take 20+ armour saves at a time you start losing Terminators quicker than I can say "bah, humbug". And if you are going the elite unit route, then why don't you take Noise Marines who blast MEQs and vehicles from across the map, force Pinning checks, and with Sonic Blasters equipped, put out triple the shots at 24"?


agreed, mystery. I drop a unit of 5 on the table on occasions, especially in objective based games and especially especially if im seeing some MEQ on the other side of the board. Theyre great for keeping objectives *contested* and they tend to draw fire from marine armies.
Even with the saturation of AP3 around the whole of the grimdark these days, Units with a stock AP3 (ape?) weapon will see a deal of fire pointed their way: ignoring a unit can lead to unpleasantness a turn from now, so to speak.
Ive only managed to play 3 games since completing my unit of 5, but theyve proven their worth to me: Last game they saw action, they removed 4 out of 5 Ravenwing bikes in a turn of shooting (Doombolt does abide) with support of the combi bolter on their Rhino. my opponent then dedicated a dreadnaught and a second unit of bikes to their destruction: and that took him 2 turns

you cant put a points cost on the psychological aspect of a unit. the majority of marine players get all puckery when something arrives that slices through their vaunted 3+ en masse. Ive been playing for over a decade now and I still do it.

Pop, if they allowed a "Chaos player whinestavaganza" thread, it would crash the servers, if not the whole internets. thats why there isnt one.

I laughed at this. A smart player doesn't react to Thousand Sons as you describe. Why? Because five of them especially aren't going to do much damage, and even token fire power from Fire Warriors or Tactical Marines armed with bolters will still kill two or more in a single volley. Great, the Thousand Sons are already neutered and will only average one wound now against MEQs without cover at 24". What a fantastic unit to distract my opponent. Everyone who studies the math knows that S4 AP3 really isn't that hot for hunting MEQs, especially in the limited numbers Thousand Sons will always provide due to their insanely high points cost. People aren't going to be scared of your 150 point 5 man unit that can't do anything well at all, and only needs a single monster, vehicle, or any kind of 10+ model MEQ or GEQ unit, or a TEQ unit, to screw them over. Hell, how often do you play against Chaos Daemons? If you take one small unit, they will laugh at you and ignore them. If you take one or more large units, they will laugh at you and get into combat with them by turn two at the latest and devour them.

Wow, three games with the unit. Wow. I stand in awe of such experience. My two hundred plus games obviously don't count. That is anecdotal evidence if I have ever seen it. You managed to kill 4 T5 3+ 5++ models with S4 AP3 bolters and a hairline S8 AP3 beam. You do realize the insane luck on your part for this to happen, right? And your opponent, I can freely admit, didn't react the right way at all. The Dreadnought would have been the only unit necessary. Thousand Sons cannot, I repeat, cannot beat down Dreadnoughts, unless the Sorcerer has melta bombs and even that is an absolute crap shoot.

Of course they do. But anyone who has played against Thousand Sons or, heck, read their rules knows they aren't that fearsome at all, because; they. Do. Not. Do. That. Much. Damage. Once in a blue moon, they might kill something decent. Otherwise? Necrons, Tau, Eldar, hell even other Marine armies will eat you through sheer weight of dice, because your expensive little unit can't do anything against massed numbers of any kind of unit. Your unit is 200 points down the drain against anyone except small number MEQ armies. They don't have a psychological effect on enemies because they suck and do almost nothing to their army that regular Chaos Space Marines of equivalent points would do in the first place, and Chaos Marines don't do that much damage to begin with. You can use your three games with one god-like example to prove your theory, I can use averages, almost 67x the amount of games and experience against every army list imaginable.

If I want something to contest objectives, I'll take cheaper Plague Marines who do it infinitely better. If I want something to sit on my home objectives, I'll take a range of cheap Cultist units.

Heck, while we are it, let us look at what people have suggested you need to make Thousand Sons useful. Either Huron Blackheart or Ahriman to give them Infiltrate, and having one or two decently sized squads, as one example. Yay. That's 750 points down the drain if you take twenty Thousand Sons with Ahriman, and not too much less if you drop a few Rubric Marines here and there and take Huron. That leaves so many points for me to spend on things that actually do their job and can deal with all the units that Thousand Sons can't deal with (i.e. every unit in the game).

I have used them as my primary Troops, my secondary/supporting Troops, and as every other unit you can think of. They do not do anything well and it always ends up being the Cultists/Chaos Marines/Noise Marines/Plague Marines themselves who steal the show, not my primary or supporting Thousand Sons units.


Anecdotal evidence at its finest. With five shots, you kill .74 bikes on average dice. 1.5 in rapid fire range. Any unit is good if you roll hot and your opponent rolls poorly. A heldrake would do much more damage and draw a lot more firepower and is much more points efficient. Its barely more expensive, too.

Well, phreakachu is actually running them in a Rhino, so no, the Heldrake is cheaper!
Hell, he could just take five Noise Marines with a Blastmaster for much less that would do much more in the game and not become irrelevant if anything except MSU MEQs are put in front of them, but whatever, they killed 4 Ravenwing Bikes in one game so clearly they must be amazing.


It always amuses me when people who don't play Thousand Sons start telling people who do that Thousand Sons are good. I don't (and I don't think anyone really does) play them because they're effective- I play them despite the fact that they're overpriced and underperformers. Combine that with no support for a Thousand Sons army anywhere else in the codex, and it's really quite depressing...

Yep. Someone who also understands. I don't want a unit that wins games. I want a unit that is fun to use, not one that I have to constantly joke about to my opponent because of how bad they are. It is really discouraging when your favourite unit simply doesn't play well at all or anything like they are described in the fluff, and I think this is something a lot of people in this thread simply do not understand.

[DarkLink]

I've yet to meet a TkSons player who thought their army was even remotely competitive. And I've played against them more than enough times to agree. AP3 is way overrated when it lacks a good delivery system.

[Learn2Eel]

Yep, I mean, it is still possible to beat competitive players with them, but it isn't the Thousand Sons themselves that win the day, it is just really good tactics and understanding of the enemy units. Half the game in 40K is knowing your opponent and what tools they have available, as well as how to counter them.

[DarkLink]

Also, tzeentch daemon princes with invisibility and the black mace. Or, if you make all of your 4++ saves, like someone I know (looking at you, somerandomidiot).

[Katharon]

Creating a Thousand Sons army is the only thing that draws me to Chaos. Disregarding their weaponry, multiple psykers, and special rules -- the fact that EVERY model in my army would have a 4 or 5+ invulnerable save is insanely awesome. It gives the TS such a great amount of tactical flexibility and ruggedness that I still drool about the combos you could pull off.

[DrBored]

I've yet to meet a TkSons player who thought their army was even remotely competitive. And I've played against them more than enough times to agree. AP3 is way overrated when it lacks a good delivery system.

I know only one guy that plays Thousand Sons religiously, but not competitively. He wins through raw tactics and a superb understanding of target priority, and then some good rolls on top of that. If you asked him if they were competitive, I'm not sure what he'd say, but I'll bet the answer would be 'probably not'.

Thing is, you shouldn't have to be an expert at this game to have an enjoyable game with a portion of an army, especially one as thematic as the Thousand Sons. If you took an army entirely of Possessed and hoped to win, you might want to brush up on your tactics and bust out your copy of the Art of War, but something as iconic as a Thousand Sons warband should be just as difficult or easy to use as any of the others. Why they're not is beyond me.

[Learn2Eel]

I know only one guy that plays Thousand Sons religiously, but not competitively. He wins through raw tactics and a superb understanding of target priority, and then some good rolls on top of that. If you asked him if they were competitive, I'm not sure what he'd say, but I'll bet the answer would be 'probably not'.

Thing is, you shouldn't have to be an expert at this game to have an enjoyable game with a portion of an army, especially one as thematic as the Thousand Sons. If you took an army entirely of Possessed and hoped to win, you might want to brush up on your tactics and bust out your copy of the Art of War, but something as iconic as a Thousand Sons warband should be just as difficult or easy to use as any of the others. Why they're not is beyond me.

Your second paragraph pretty much hits the nail on the head in regards to Thousand Sons and Khorne Berzerkers. It isn't that we can't win with them, hell, it isn't that we want to win tournaments with them, we just shouldn't have to feel like we are at a disadvantage by taking them. I love the Warp Talon models, but I know from the start that I am using a big points sink that can evaporate really quickly.

[somerandomidiot]

Your second paragraph pretty much hits the nail on the head in regards to Thousand Sons and Khorne Berzerkers. It isn't that we can't win with them, hell, it isn't that we want to win tournaments with them, we just shouldn't have to feel like we are at a disadvantage by taking them. I love the Warp Talon models, but I know from the start that I am using a big points sink that can evaporate really quickly.

Exactly. Also, DarkLink, it's not my rolling of 4+'s that gets you, it's the way you seemingly forget all that strategy whenever we play. I hear Look Out Sir! is a helpful rule. :)

[Learn2Eel]

Hehe, are you the Thousand Sons player DarkLink mentioned that lays the smack down on a lot of the local players, and those players think your army is OP? Even though I don't lose that often with my Thousand Sons, I have yet to have someone tell me something like that lol!

[somerandomidiot]

Hehe, are you the Thousand Sons player DarkLink mentioned that lays the smack down on a lot of the local players, and those players think your army is OP? Even though I don't lose that often with my Thousand Sons, I have yet to have someone tell me something like that lol!

I just sent you a PM, but yeah that's me. I've been playing Thousand Sons since the end of 4th Edition, and do pretty well with them. Unfortunately, due to my tournament successes, our local player group believes that Thousand Sons are a powerful army. I play mono-Tzeentch, and only really use a single Helldrake at 1750 and higher (and even then, it's usually an Autocannon).

[mysterex]

Can i just say the constant asking for legion rules is why forgeworld started the heresy series. CSM are no longer the legions, they are warbands, you can make legion lite armies but they wont be legions and thats good because the legions disbanded. Yes CSM could do with some changes but im sorry they won't be getting the legion rules like everyone wants because that is not their focus, they are now more interested in the gods and that is what is shown in the books.

As I understand it this is not entirely true. The Word Bearers legion is pretty much intact. Plus if you read the Night Lord series, despite 10,000 having passed in real space, the traitor legions include a significant number of the same legionnaires that fought in the heresy. While the army structure may have changed somewhat, the basic chaos marine should be no worse that a forgeworld legionnaire and arguable better due to the extra combat experience.

My real issue is that I don't want to play with dinobots, if I buy a codex called Chaos Space Marines, then I want to play with Chaos Space Marines. As a result it should encourage builds around that basic troop it's named for, not the heldrake/cultist/obliterator spam that we tend to see in attempts at competitive builds.

Thematically and aesthetically my Night Lords are my favourite army but I've only used them once (this week in fact) in the last 2 years because coming up with a moderately good build is near impossible. And that was because I like the army and wanted to give them some table time, not because I thought they'd go well.

While I won the game on kill points against a largely foot guard army, I had less than 25% of my models left whilst my opponent had 2/3rds of his. If we had another turn I would have been tabled. While my opponent had a good army I certainly didn't consider it top tier.

Short story, unless you go for the generic spam build, which means you're not actually playing Chaos Space Marines, you just pay too many points for what they do.

[Demonus]

CSM codex is a solid codex. People need to use more imagination in creating lists and make better tactical choices on the board.

For fun beer and Pretzel games I agree with you. I can make a list against non competitive friends and win, with varying lists of my own (not all oblits and helldrakes). Sadly the NOVA results I saw say otherwise. CSM were destroyed pretty regularly with abysmal results. I tend to think that these players were somewhat competent tacticians, but I may be wrong.

if you do well with the CSM codex than good for you. Keep on kicking ***. For me, it will be pulled out on the rare occasion I want to feel "fluffy", and then Ill look forward to the Suppliments we have been promised to make it better.

[The Sovereign]

I just sent you a PM, but yeah that's me. I've been playing Thousand Sons since the end of 4th Edition, and do pretty well with them. Unfortunately, due to my tournament successes, our local player group believes that Thousand Sons are a powerful army. I play mono-Tzeentch, and only really use a single Helldrake at 1750 and higher (and even then, it's usually an Autocannon).


I asked DarkLink a while back if he could convince you to write up a Thousand Sons tactica for those of us who play the legion. Any thought about that?

[somerandomidiot]

I asked DarkLink a while back if he could convince you to write up a Thousand Sons tactica for those of us who play the legion. Any thought about that?

Hmm, I may do just that. I'll be seeing DarkLink tonight at our weekly game night, I'll see if I can get some pictures and maybe write something up this weekend. I know Reecius (from Frontline Gaming) has been bothering me to do something similar, hopefully it'll be helpful. Unfortunately, a lot of tactics with Thousand Sons tend to rely VERY strongly on what your opponent is running, so it could end up being quite a tome...

[DarkLink]

Reece from frontline was asking about that, too.

Edit: ninjad

[Cap'nSmurfs]

There's just nothing like knowing your army inside out and knowing how to use it. Or so I hear; I'm a terrible player. :)

[DWest]

There's just nothing like knowing your army inside out and knowing how to use it. Or so I hear; I'm a terrible player. :)
Indeed. During 5th Edition, I made a local player quit (new) Grey Knights and denounce them as as unplayably weak* with my Tyranids (yes, Tyranids!) because I knew exactly how my army worked, and I knew exactly how *his* army worked, and I was countering his moves before he made them. Later on, he got more proficient, came back to GK, and things started to go more like how you'd expect GK-vs-Nids to go. In summation, if you know what your opponent needs to do; what he is going to use to do it; and what your army can do to disrupt it, you'll generally do quite well.

*except Draigowing, but in our local group, the Primogenitor-of-all-WAAC-Jerks had made Draigowing his signature, and my friend wasn't going to play the list, for fear of becoming tainted.

[White Tiger88]

Ok so, i'm a little miffed, but i have to remind myself that this is only the first week, tactics and armies will change.

But from what i am looking at, as a csm player how am i supposed to react to a sm codex release that without a doubt is better in every way to my codex?

I cannot fathom how a year of separation between codex releases can be this lopsided. My only conclusion is that based on the codexs released so far, Gw has lost interest in keeping balance, they are more interested in driving sales through more elaborate and overpowered codexs, all meant to keep you buying the latest and greatest.

I'll probably come back and rant some more, but is anyone else feeling this way?

Suck it up at least you don't have to deal with people spamming Draigo and thinking he is "fair" to play and totally under-powered...........(I play demon's and people always bring him just to be a dick...)