6th Ed Space Marines Discussion

[Cap'nSmurfs]

So, the Codex hit. I downloaded it last night, and I had a less sleepy look through this morning. What do people think?

So far, my opinion is that it's broadly done what needed to be done to Space Marines, which was a pretty good book still, but showing its age. I'm most impressed with the massive point reductions on things which needed them - from my own army's perspective, a level two terminator Librarian I used with a combi-plasma has gone from a beastly 185 points to a much more reasonable 125. Likewise, the Venerable Dreadnought has had a 40 point reduction. Vanguard Veterans are cheaper basic, but tend to pay more for their weapons. Devastator squads benefit greatly from the reduction in cost of Lascannons, but will pay out the nose if you want Flakk missiles, as is standard.

Grav weapons look seriously good, and they add a very useful tool to the Space Marine armoury. They're very short-ranged, though.

I think the Warlord Traits are fine. None of them are spectacular, but most of them are probably useful here and there.

It's a beautiful book. I love what they've done with the background. By dividing the background among the First Founding chapters and their successors, it comes across as a much more balanced book than previously, which is a good thing. Ultramarines and Guilliman are still the Imperium-saving heroes they were; you're not having it shoved down your throat in a slightly artificial way anymore. Worth noting that a few of the previously contentious background sentences received subtle tweaks here and there, as well.

Anyway, friends! Over to you!

[musical-fool]

I purchased the enhanced ebook version to test the army builder thing but cannot find it in the codex. Am I being stupid?

[NickTheButcher]

So far I'm liking what I see. Big, but subtle changes if that makes sense.

Point costs are running about the same as the previous codex for me in most places. Cost went down on the bodies, but the toys all increased in price with a couple of exceptions.

Chapter tactics and the ability to ally them in differently really gives a dynamic that impresses me. The combinations are limitless really and they are all in 1 book!

Grav weapons look like a good answer to multiple issues I was encountering in the previous codex (Serpent Spam, certain MC's etc..). Efficiency will still have to be determined on the table however, since they are shorter range AND quite expensive (Centurions anyone :D ).

Thunderfire cannons getting Barrage is certainly welcome in my lists and will be fun to use.

Overall I'm happy. I just need to see how it actually does on the table ;) before really forming a solid opinion. But it's certainly promising.

[Tushan]

I purchased the enhanced ebook version to test the army builder thing but cannot find it in the codex. Am I being stupid?

There some technical troubles with apples end of iBooks - check out the link to GW digitals FB page for details - they hope to have an update available I the next week that contains the army builder but pushed the codex out temporarily without it rather than delay the digital release completely until apples all sorted :

Here's the link for the FB page, it's the second post down - posted yesterday ahead of the release.

https://www.facebook.com/GamesWorkshopDigitalEditions

[chicop76]

Hmmm. Might face new marines tonight. I figure grav weapons may be a problem, so I have a few questions.

What units can take a grav weapon?
What is the range?
Can they hurt models with no save?
Most important question can any grav bearers can deep strike, not worried too much on outflanking?

My riptides are not really worried since they can rain in death 72" away. I figure I can blast the hell out of the grav usesers at range.

Thinking about it the weapons range can be an issue since riptides and wraithknights can fire out of range. Due to wounding on saves it may not work on a lot of daemons. Only unit I am worried about so far is my Bloodthirster who would be flying anyway.

I can see 3 armies daemons, eldar, and tau, csm, dark eldar, and nids will really focus the grav units.hmm anyarmy with good armour models will fear that weapon system which turns the new guys into fire mqgnnts.

[solthas]

I purchased the enhanced ebook version to test the army builder thing but cannot find it in the codex. Am I being stupid?
I am having the same problem. Anyone know about this?

[Tushan]

I am having the same problem. Anyone know about this?

Apparently technical difficulties on apples side - they explain it in a FB post on the GW digital page, check out yesterday's post, second down the page at this time. They expect to be able to post an update win the week including it.

https://www.facebook.com/GamesWorkshopDigitalEditions

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It's been delayed apparently, due to an issue with iBooks.

[Learn2Eel]

Hmmm. Might face new marines tonight. I figure grav weapons may be a problem, so I have a few questions.

What units can take a grav weapon?
What is the range?
Can they hurt models with no save?
Most important question can any grav bearers can deep strike, not worried too much on outflanking?

My riptides are not really worried since they can rain in death 72" away. I figure I can blast the hell out of the grav usesers at range.

Thinking about it the weapons range can be an issue since riptides and wraithknights can fire out of range. Due to wounding on saves it may not work on a lot of daemons. Only unit I am worried about so far is my Bloodthirster who would be flying anyway.

I can see 3 armies daemons, eldar, and tau, csm, dark eldar, and nids will really focus the grav units.hmm anyarmy with good armour models will fear that weapon system which turns the new guys into fire mqgnnts.

Any unit that can take special weapons can take grav weapons, i.e. anyone that can take plasma guns or meltaguns. That means Bikers can take them as well. Grav pistols and combi-grav weapons can be taken by any character, but the grav cannons are limited to Devastator Centurions.
Pistol - 12"
Gun - 18" (salvo so 9" on the move)
Cannon - 24"

Yes they can, the to wound roll is to a minimum of 6+.

Anyone that can take special weapons can also probably take a Drop Pod. Devastator Centurions can't though.

[musical-fool]

It's been delayed apparently, due to an issue with iBooks.

Ok will probably be updated as issues are resolved

[eldargal]

I'm rather impressed with it, the only sour point for me being Tigurius. Probly a tad undercosted if not OP but a kick in the teeth to eldar players.

[Vlad78]

No special weapons for command squads anymore. My two vets with flamers say thank you GW.

[Mr Mystery]

In terms of the Chapter Tactics, I'm thoroughly chuffed they're no longer linked to special characters. Each set is decent, but nothing there immediately jumps out as better than the others.

Grav-guns are indeed very saucy, but of course incredibly situation dependant. They'll bum other MEQ's, and other well armoured stuff, but are less than useful against Guard and other Hordes, not to mention Daemons who typically lack an armour save entirely. This in itself is likely to keep their numbers fairly restrained.

Centurions. Think what you like of the models, they're filthy. Fire two weapons, and Siege Drills are sweet! S9, AP2, Armourbane, but no Unwieldy.

Dream combo for me? Stormraven, 4 Devastator Centurions, Ironclad Dreadnought. Enough fire power and overall clout to mess up pretty much anything. It's very pricey, but really tempting!

Also, Vanguard Vets get a nice little boost, in so far as they ignore disordered charge rules. Neither truly spectacular or game breaking, but very useful when faced with Hordes.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I'm rather impressed with it, the only sour point for me being Tigurius. Probly a tad undercosted if not OP but a kick in the teeth to eldar players.

Eh, I'm not so certain Tigurius is that bad anymore. He's gone way down in his overall utility. He used to know like eight powers, and he could use three each turn. He always knew those eight powers. Now, he only ever knows three - yes, he can reroll to select them, but three out of a max of like 35 is not the same as knowing all eight out of eight - he's far less useful as a utility kit now. Additionally, he can't definitely use three a turn anymore. Some of those powers might be 2 Warp Charge.

Meanwhile, Eldrad has an epic Invulnerable save, a better weapon, is one Mastery Level better, and can generate more Warp Charge for himself. He's still the better psyker; it's just that Tigurius is far and away the best human psyker. (Mephiston is the best whatever he is psyker).

None of which is to say that I think you're wrong, but I think this is the thinking behind his price drop.

[jifel]

Ah, but compare Tigurius to a standard Libby, and my is he an amazing deal. But, I won't say broken as he is just a PA model with no invuln. Plus I have Shadows to help me!

[Hexx2019]

I am so happy at the small but good inclusion of some of the smaller chapters, Iron snakes yeeaaaaah!, the art work is amazing.... and I now know that my next sm chapter will be the iron crusaders mostly due to the fact they are only mentioned once nothing is know about them and they can be easily molded into badasses...

[The Imperial Fist]

I love the codex itself. It really seems "Codex: Space Marines" this time and not "Codex: Ultramarines and their fangirls". I had been worried that the post-heresy Imperial Fist and Black Templar fluff would be changed from what it was in the Graham McNeil Black Templar codex, but it's still faithful to that. The Imperial Fists, supported by Russ and Vulkan did still almost go to war against the Ultramarines, supported by the Khan and Corax. The Black Templars didn't get the codex treatment that the poor Grey Knights got at Wards hands (though I notice that they've left out the fact they greatly outnumber any codex chapter this time). Captains are still Marshals in the fluff section too. All in all quite happy.
Will be re-writing my standard list though, my normal 1500 point list is now 1550...

[DarkLink]

Eh, I'm not so certain Tigurius is that bad anymore. He's gone way down in his overall utility. He used to know like eight powers, and he could use three each turn. He always knew those eight powers. Now, he only ever knows three - yes, he can reroll to select them, but three out of a max of like 35 is not the same as knowing all eight out of eight - he's far less useful as a utility kit now. Additionally, he can't definitely use three a turn anymore. Some of those powers might be 2 Warp Charge.

Most of those eight powers were pretty terrible. The rest were just kinda useful. Now, he's got access to some extremely powerful powers, from Misfortune to Prescience to Endurance to Invisibility and so on. He's much, much better now.

[Mr Mystery]

Depends on the selection made, and the rolls gained.

Tiggy is pokey if lucky, but a smidge 'meh' if it goes a bit wrong!

[Toyz n the Hood]

I bought mine this morning and a couple of us sat down and wrote a review: -

http://toyznthehood.com/578/power-extreme-review-of-codex-space-marines-2013/

I absolutely love it - it's still the marines we know and love but there's some great new stuff. My favourite thing is probably the Chapter Relics as they let you make your own characters that feel like they can go toe-to-toe with the Special Characters.

And Tigurius is rock, incredibly good value, you'd be made not to take him in Ultramarines. But then you couldn't use the other Chapters :(

[The Imperial Fist]

I bought mine this morning and a couple of us sat down and wrote a review: -

http://toyznthehood.com/578/power-extreme-review-of-codex-space-marines-2013/

I absolutely love it - it's still the marines we know and love but there's some great new stuff. My favourite thing is probably the Chapter Relics as they let you make your own characters that feel like they can go toe-to-toe with the Special Characters.

And Tigurius is rock, incredibly good value, you'd be made not to take him in Ultramarines. But then you couldn't use the other Chapters :(

How do you read the wording of wargear table when it comes to relics. "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following:" do you read that as "I can swap my bolt pistol for the Shield Eternal and my chainsword for the Teeth of Terra" (pretty sure that's Dorn's chainsword anyway...) or only make one swap. I think it's the former, but do wonder if others are reading it as the latter?

[Truculent Sheep]

The Iron Hands came off well, with a strong protagonist (Kardan Stronos) and a good combination of totalitarian horror and po-faced absurd humour. I say this, of course, as precisely the sort of sad git who's got an ongoing Sons of Medusa army on the go, so naturally there was lots of SQUEEEE at Chez Mouton when I saw p. 72.

The rest of the Codex was well-written and beautifully designed and illustrated, with the fluff being both unapologetically the main attraction and lots of fun. That said, the portrayal of Robute Guilliman and his post-heresy antics are still a bit too rose-tinted. He may well have saved the Imperium, but he got hornswoggled by the Word Bearers, split the legions, nearly caused a civil war and helped drive poor old Rogal Dorn to an early death. Likewise, his slowing down how new SMs are created and putting a lot of power over the Chapters into the hands of the Adeptus Terra might yet prove fatal.

On the other hand, the implied possibility that some loyalist Chapters may have been created by traitor legion gene seed is intriguing (cough-cough-BLOOD-RAVENS-cough-cough), as is the inevitable *****fest between Agemman and Sicarius that will take place if Marneus ever snuffs it. So too is the Celestial Swords fiasco, which raised a smile or two.

The army list itself is also very good, and allows you to knock together a decent Codex army list with a strong theme, regardless of whether you're a Smurf, a Hun, a Yellow Masochist, a Pyromaniac or some nutter with a bionic armpit. The only question is why you would need any of the supplemental codices that are coming out in the wake of the main book - though I would be happy to be proven wrong.

The only real flaw is that the Chapter Successor rules, while a simple and quick fix for creating diverse armies, don't cover the quirkier Chapters of uncertain parentage, who - perhaps pointedly - have a section all of their own. The day GW finally unveils a Chapter construction kit will make me a very happy sheep. Still, it's simple and it works. What more could you ask for?

Put simply, this Codex sweeps away the flaws of 5.0 edition, and is far less clumsy in the way it allows customisation than 4.0 ever could. It is, in fact, pretty close to being flawless on many levels.

[The Imperial Fist]

One minor thing I had noted, as you probably did as well Truculent, is that the Iron Hands still don't have a special character. It wouldn't of taken much to dream up one more, feels a little like a kick to the poor old Iron Hands. Maybe that is one thing they will get from a supplement?

[Chris*ta]

I think my biggest complaint -- and this is just having read the WD -- is the fact that they've labelled Scythes of the Emperor and Hawk Lords as Ultramarines successors.

SotM are one of my favourite chapters and till now haven't had any answer on where their geneseed comes from, but I like to think of them as Imperial Fists as it seems to suit them more.

As for Hawk Lords, it's hard to see why they aren't Raven Guards successors, as they do have the same symbol.

Aaaaaand now I'm slightly apprehensive to go through the rest of the fluff :(

[Truculent Sheep]

One minor thing I had noted, as you probably did as well Truculent, is that the Iron Hands still don't have a special character. It wouldn't of taken much to dream up one more, feels a little like a kick to the poor old Iron Hands. Maybe that is one thing they will get from a supplement?

Yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion that rules for Stronos will be part of the bait for the Iron Hands supple-dex. It will need more than that to make it a must-have though, given that you've got all you need in the main Codex for a decent IH army.

[Murphy80]

Hey guys, new poster, but long time lurker here! I wanted to throw my two cents in about the new codex.

Regarding Iron Hands, I love the fact that they've been included in as much detail as they have been, but a special character would have been great! I am positive that this is Supplement Bait waiting to happen. I find it fascinating that they've basically been an ignored chapter for well over a decade, with only a little bit of fluff thrown their way here and there. However, with the newer Horus Heresy novels, the Iron Hands have been included more and more.

Did anyone else read Angel Exterminatus? While I was enthralled by the interpersonal conflict between Perterabo and Fulgrim, I actually loved the Loyalist chapters more. The Iron Hands were such dogged survivors that I could help but root for them, even though I've been a Chaos player for nearly 20 years. So far, the survivors of the Dropsite Massacre (all three chapters) have been my just great reading.

Incidentally, guys, I've spent a year building up a host of 6th edition gaming articles over at Hubpages and I've just posted the first 2 parts of my new Space Marine Codex Review! I'd love some feedback, and maybe you'd like to read a layout of the rules from someplace that isn't a crowded web forum or rumor site :) In the last 12 months I've had more than 300,000 reads, so I think the quality is up to snuff. Check it out if you're interested:

http://murphy80.hubpages.com/hub/New-Space-Marine-Codex-6th-Edition-Review-Warhammer-40k-Part-1

In the mean time, I'm glad to see that space marine players are excited about the new book, but aren't in so much awe as to overlook its few flaws. It's hit and miss with every codex, but so far I think this will be serve as a great foundation for SM players this addition.

[Patrick Boyle]

I like that the Blood Ravens got a mention, even if it's only in one sentence in the Unknown Foundings section and they're brought up in the same sentence as the Exorcists. At least there's something official on them. My finger crossing for a supplement some day is probably in vain, but a Shield Eternal and Thunder Hammer toting Chapter Master should represent Gabriel Angelos pretty well once I get that model going. Other things that jumped out...

Legion of the Damned. Give those guys a Plasma Cannon and a plasma gun(it's a shame they can't take Grav guns), and deep strike them in somewhere. Ignores Cover plasma, yes please?

Honor Guard at their new base and upgrade prices? I was already making some to go with Gabriel so all those drops are just a bonus. The Champion losing access to digital weapons and a relic blade is somewhat annoying but I imagine locally I won't have trouble counts as'ing the Sevrin Loth honor guard giant relic blade axe as a thunder hammer(the exact axe is special Wargear for Honor Guard Captain Diomedes in DoW2 retribution, which is why I'm using it on my champion) so that all works out still.

A Vanguard vet with jump pack and storm shield(they pay 5 less than characters do, holy crap) is now only 2 points more than they cost with just a jump pack in the old book. The sergeant doesn't have a power weapon included anymore but the base cost of the first 5 models is 30 less than what it was so in the end holy crap are they much better than they were, even with the changes to Heroic Intervention.

The dakka pred is more expensive, but the las pred is 25 points cheaper in total. I'll take it.

Speaking of tanks, Chronus. Yeah, he's Ultras only, but at 20 points less while giving the same buffs as before, plus IWND? I'd almost say he's worth it somewhere now...

And speaking of Ultras only characters, Telion got lightly nerfed, losing S4 on his Stalker so that he's now wounding Guard/Tau/Eldar on a 4 along with everyone else in his squad. Still useful though.

And finally, it's been mentioned already, but Barrage on the Thunderfire makes me smile.

Oh, and one more thing I just noticed. So Techmarine servo arms aren't extra attacks at I1 anymore, they're a specialist weapon that's Sx2 AP1...I was a little bummed by that at first, until I realized one, it's specialist, and two, Techmarines now have access to the melee weapon list. It makes the individual entry for a Power Axe kinda pointless, as they could just buy one off the list, but there's the ability for a Techmarine to take a Lightning Claw, so you can choose to either swing the claw or the AP1 fist with extra attacks for two weapons. Not sure how practical that is at 65 points, but something I'll be thinking about as a LR ride-along to keep the thing ticking and add some melee punch to the cargo. Have they been this way since DA?

[flekkzo]

I'm rather impressed with it, the only sour point for me being Tigurius. Probly a tad undercosted if not OP but a kick in the teeth to eldar players.

That's if you play Ultramarines. The rest of us doesn't get more than one or two SC and yes we can ally them in, but so can the Eldar:) I'm miffed at that whole thing, especially if I have to explain that I now play crimson fists, with kantor and Lysander (have yet seen a rule that stop that), all which are painted up as imperial fists so kantor's rule for hold the link work.

[Arkhan Land]

Personally very satisfied with the hunter and stalker prices, one of the things I was most curious about in the new codex. Happy to see theyll be an easily squeezable imprint on some of my already existing armies.

scouts are so cheap its amazing for nearly the cost of scout sqaud in the previous dex now you can take one with either a Heavy bolter, Missle Launcher, even with Flakk as an option built in, and a dedicated transport with jink thrown in makes it juicier

centurions transportable is doublepluss!

Altogether kind of looks like itll be fairly brutal for the other races

[DarkLink]

Chapter Master. With Shield Eternal. And a Thunderhammer. On a bike. Is. A. Boss.

Also, he makes bikes troops, and a unit of bikes with grav guns is really, really good. Hit and Run is awesome for them, though IWNT from Iron Hands CT is pretty hilarious on the Chapter Master.

[Toyz n the Hood]

As requested by Larry, here's an abridged version of my review: -

This morning I picked up the new Space Marine Codex and have spent the rest of the day reading it front to back. These are our first impressions of the book.

Overview
At £35 this is the most expensive Codex to date. It’s also the biggest at 180 pages – that’s a mighty 36 pages more than the previous Space Marine Codex. So what’s it full of?

Pictures – this is one of the first things that jumps out. There are two pieces of black and white artwork, the inside front cover and the inside back cover. All the other pictures in the book are full-colour. There is a mix of familiar colour art, all-new artwork and a lot of black and white art that has been coloured.

Background – there’s lots of background information. Lots of inset boxes have quotes from great Space Marine heroes and there’s plenty of different timelines and flavour text. Seven Space Marine Chapters are detailed in depth and then so are some of their successor chapters. If you’re playing with a Codex of your own design you won’t miss out; there’s plenty of generic information about medals, Space Marine equipment and the creation of Space Marines.

Miniatures – there’s a lot of photos of miniatures. This is helped as, unlike previous codices, every single Space Marine model has been released. All seven main Chapters are shown which does mean a fair few black Marine models (Black Templars, Raven Guard and Iron Hands) but variety is provided by a few pictures of Successor Chapters.

The Rules Section

Chapter rules - Each of the seven Chapters receives its own set of extra rules (Chapter Tactics) to reflect the way they fight on the table and background.

• Ultramarines – The most flexible tactics, Ultramarines can choose from three Combat Doctrines over the course of the game either making them better in assault, shooting or moving and shooting.
• White Scars –get a big boost to bikes – they automatically pass Dangerous Terrain Tests, get +1 Strength to their Hammer of Wrath and virtually everything gets Hit & Run, especially useful as Combat Tactics is no more.
• Imperial Fists – Basically the army gets Bolter Drills, they can re-roll to hits of “1” with bolt-weapons. Their Devastator and Centurion squads also get Tank Hunter!
• Black Templars – In Challenges Black Templars re-roll to hit and get rending. They all get Crusader which lets them run to the enemy quicker and Sweeping Advance further.
• Iron Hands – Probably our favourite – they get Feel No Pain and all vehicles and characters have It Will Not Die. Techmarines then get a bonus to repair rolls. If you’re playing a vehicle heavy army these could be rather good!
• Salamander – re-roll saves when wounded by flame weapons they also re-roll to wound with their own flame weapons. All Sergeants gain a master-crafted something of their choice.
• Raven Guard – they all have Scout and get Stealth on the first turn. They get better jump packs too.

Weapon & Equipment – All of the Space Marine equipment is described in depth. Characters now have a bigger selection of equipment choices including more powerful Chapter Relics that can make them the equal of the special characters.
Notable weapons and equipments are: -

• Grav-weaponry – this is a whole new category of weapon. Basically these use an enemy’s armour save to wound him rather than toughness. This lends itself well to taking on heavily armoured infantry, even better as they are all AP2. They fill in the same section as Meltas and Plasma. . The downside being they are reasonably poor against vehicle, with the exception of Grav-Cannons.
• Auspex – this now reduces an enemy’s cover save. Not so special now are we Tau players?
• Shield Eternal - this makes your character into Lysander – it’s a Storm Shield with Eternal Warrior and Adamantium Will.
• Burning Blade – Strength plus three and AP2 this sword also causes Blind. Sure there’s a chance it will kill you too but that’s because it’s so much awesome! (maybe take a Storm Shield too)
• Armour of Indominus – This provides a 2+ armour save and then for one turn an Invulnerable 2+ save! Oh, and you get Relentless too...

The Army List

Now for a look at our first impressions of the army list itself.

Named Characters
There are a whopping 12 named characters in the Space Marine Codex. The big catch is that you can’t mix and match Chapters in your list and only members of the same Chapter get the boost. It should lead to some nice themed armies though. Most of the characters have been tweaked a little.

Our two favourites are: -

Varro Tigurius – He’s amazing! He’s 65 points cheaper and has got much, much better. He is the only librarian who can have Divination and can re-roll the dice to choose his powers. Oh and he can re-roll failed psychic tests and reserve rolls. Point-for-point he is the best psyker in the game offering plenty of protection from psychic powers while supplementing other units. If you’re playing Ultramarines you would be mad not to take him.
Kor’Sarro Khan - If you’re taking bikes then Khan is a great choice – he gives White Scars with Bikes Scout which makes them the equivalent, if not slightly better, than Dark Angels Ravenwing (sorry Dark Angels, you had your six months of glory!). He has the best Warlord trait, Champion of Humanity, and with a bike is in a good position to use it with d3 Hammer of Wrath hits when he charges and a further five S5 power weapon attacks.

Generic Characters
Generic characters are back with a vengeance. The Chapter Master gets an extra wound and attack for an increase of just 5 points and all the characters get access to Chapter Relics. The Chapter Relics can add some really nice abilities that make them more than the equal of the named characters so now you can create your own Chapter with its own legendary character. This is one of my favourite things about the new codex.

Troops
Troops are pretty much the same although cheaper as you buy the extras separately. Tactical Squads now get Grav Weapons as upgrades – I’m looking forward to seeing how these fare on the battlefield. My personal favourite here is the move of Land Speeder Storms to Transport choices for Scouts. I’ve always wanted to field them but had a tough time justifying it. Not anymore!

Black Templar Crusader Squads can now be found here. They’re ok...I guess...

Elites
As you’d expect there’s lots of Elite choices. No major changes, just a few points tweaks here and there. The big change is to Legion of the Damned and the addition of Assault Centurions: -

Legion of the Damned – these have changed immensely. They’re now massively cheaper and ignore cover saves which is a great ability at the moment as Cover Saves are rather common. They still have their Invulnerable save which will be useful in some situations but I’m not too convinced by as they are still T4 and are likely to be boltered to death. They Deep Strike with a re-roll as well. To summarise they’re no longer god-awful as they have been, aren’t cheap but in the right army could be useful.

Centurion Assault Squad – New toys! Basically these are super-terminators. T5, 2 wounds and a 2+ Armour Save is going to take some shifting. At first they don’t look too much of a big deal in assault with just one attack but this quickly becomes two for two weapons and three on the charge. Siege Drills are also not unwieldy so they could be good for Dreadnought bashing and other slow armoured targets.
They have Slow and Purposeful which will be frustrating as it means they can’t Run into position and neither can they fire Overwatch. They’re not a cheap option but should last a while on the table. First impressions are that they will need a Land Raider to work but we look forward to hearing how you fare with them!

Fast Attack
There’s still a strong selection of Fast Attack choices. Bike Squads have plummeted in price so expect to see a lot more of these, especially with the boosts White Scars get. Storm Talons are now properly in the Codex so we can all burn our White Dwarfs!

Heavy Support
Once again Space Marine players will be spoilt for choice here. Devastators are a little cheaper and gain access to Flakk Missiles – which are NOT cheaper. The Storm Raven can be found here – meaning that you can have three Storm Talons escorting three Storm Ravens and really dominate the air.

We also get three new units: -

Centurion Devastator Squad - The same stats as the Assault Centurions the Centurion Devastators come equipped with Hurricane Bolters and Twin-linked Heavy Bolter. They can be upgraded to have Missile Launchers in their chests and a Twin-linked Lascannon or Grav-Cannon. Our favourite option is the Grav-Cannon as they can fire 5 shots each and the Grav-Amp re-rolls to wound and to penetrate. It is short ranged at 24” and so again a Land Raider wouldn’t go amiss to get them in close.

Hunter – Another new toy. This fires a single missile that if it misses a flyer or flying monstrous creature will continue to try to hit them in subsequent turns. It has Skyfire so only fires Snap Shots against ground targets. Basically this is a must-have if your opponent has flyers but at 70 points isn’t going to break the bank if your opponent doesn’t have any. Be warned though that it will do NOTHING that game.

Stalker – This has a similar anti-flyer them to the Hunter. Again it’s limited to flying targets but has the option of firing 4 twin-linked shots or 8 single shots. Those 8 single shots come in handy against ground targets as there are so many shots some are bound to hit! The Stalker is probably the better choice of the two new vehicles unless you are sure your opponent has flyers when the Hunter will come in handy.

Conclusion
Bikes seem to be the big winner here. They’re both cheaper and White Scars add a whole host of new abilities to them. The army will pretty much write itself.
The other Chapters will depend on your style of play. Lots of vehicles and you may want Iron Guard, Flamers and Meltas (unsurprisingly) suit Salamanders, and an infantry army would do well with Imperial Fists.
This is a great looking Codex and almost certainly my favourite so far. The only disappointment is the loss of Combat Tactics and Black Templars who seem to have a bit of a rough time of it. There are no units that I wouldn’t want to play with and there’s plenty of variety through a good mix of units choices, characters and Chapter special rules. Marine vs Marine games used to be a bit boring but hopefully this will provide enough variety to make it easy.

[eldargal]

Eh, I'm not so certain Tigurius is that bad anymore. He's gone way down in his overall utility. He used to know like eight powers, and he could use three each turn. He always knew those eight powers. Now, he only ever knows three - yes, he can reroll to select them, but three out of a max of like 35 is not the same as knowing all eight out of eight - he's far less useful as a utility kit now. Additionally, he can't definitely use three a turn anymore. Some of those powers might be 2 Warp Charge.

Meanwhile, Eldrad has an epic Invulnerable save, a better weapon, is one Mastery Level better, and can generate more Warp Charge for himself. He's still the better psyker; it's just that Tigurius is far and away the best human psyker. (Mephiston is the best whatever he is psyker).

None of which is to say that I think you're wrong, but I think this is the thinking behind his price drop.
He's not terrible, but he is a flat out superior psyker to Farseers. If anyone should be able to re-roll disciplines it is they for they have centuries more experience and natural aptitude far beyond even Tigurius. It's not a big issue, it's just that Tigurius is basically what a Farseer should be with the added bonus of a Marine statline.


That's if you play Ultramarines. The rest of us doesn't get more than one or two SC and yes we can ally them in, but so can the Eldar:) I'm miffed at that whole thing, especially if I have to explain that I now play crimson fists, with kantor and Lysander (have yet seen a rule that stop that), all which are painted up as imperial fists so kantor's rule for hold the link work.
Why are Special Characters so important to you? In terms of FOC stuff regular characters do everything the SCs do so who cares if you don't get an SC. Personally I'd rather all SCs be relegated to background material only and let people make their own characters instead of using GWs as a crutch.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Which is why he's 65 points more expensive than a Farseer, and still without an invulnerable save. And of course a special character is superior to a regular choice! He's not as good as Eldrad, which is the real comparison. :)

But this discussion's been had, I respect your opinion.

[The Imperial Fist]

I may have to disagree with you there Toyz about Black Templars having a rough time of it. I was ready to hate the fact they'd been rolled into the codex, but I was pleasently surprised. Their fluff was not butchered like I feared it would be. No codex treatment for them, and it does still talk about the almost war between the Fists, Salamanders and Wolves legions against the new chapters after the Heresy. It says in the fluff section that a BT captain is called a Marshall, so that's not lost, and it also says that the veteran squads are really called Sword Brethren in BT.
Then the army list itself. The chapter tactics seem quite fluffy, I personally like them. They still have access to the Emperor's Champion. Crusader squads are still there, which still have mostly the same options, but are now 5 points cheaper a model (taking into account frag and krak grenades). They still have Marshalls and Sword Brethren, you just need to remember to read the fluff section that says what they're called in codex chapters. You can also take a seperate scout (tasty sniper goodness) or tactical (but why would you) squads as the only option you can't take is Librarians. Rhinos are now 15 points cheaper, and we now have access to devestators.
My personal opinion is that this is that being rolled into the marine 'dex was actually very much good for the Templars, no matter how much I hated the idea in advance. They've kept their uniqueness in both fluff and army lists.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

That said, the portrayal of Robute Guilliman and his post-heresy antics are still a bit too rose-tinted. He may well have saved the Imperium, but he got hornswoggled by the Word Bearers, split the legions, nearly caused a civil war and helped drive poor old Rogal Dorn to an early death. Likewise, his slowing down how new SMs are created and putting a lot of power over the Chapters into the hands of the Adeptus Terra might yet prove fatal.

You have to remember that Roboute's a big-picture, long-view kind of guy. He knew what had to be done, and he knew it would be problematic, initially. Those are all the immediate fallout of his actions. The point is that the Imperium RG held together lasted for 10,000 years, far longer than it probably otherwise would. Guilliman's the man who made the Imperium of 40k, whether that's a good thing or bad.

Also: it's Codex Space Marines. Roboute Guilliman is the man who made the Space Marines what they are today. Two thirds of all space marines are his direct genetic descendants. Of course it views him in a favourable light. :)

[Toyz n the Hood]

My personal opinion is that this is that being rolled into the marine 'dex was actually very much good for the Templars, no matter how much I hated the idea in advance. They've kept their uniqueness in both fluff and army lists.

I think it comes down to personal taste - I've always imagined Templars to be mostly foot troops running towards the enemy and the original Codex lent itself quite well to this, I can't help feel with the new one it would be suicide, even with Grimaldus supporting. The characters are nice and fluffy, but don't stand out as much as the other chapters. So i guess my big issue is they don't work the way I wanted them too :)

[Ursa]

Well the seventh version of space marines rolls out. Have to say I have not been this hyped about a GW product in a long time. I was not disappointed.
First off the book is pretty. Fantastic art well designed a joy to look at and read.
Rules.
Finally got a little joy was an Iron Hands successor chapter. Hope the suppliment is worth it.
Love that my scouts got quite a bit cheaper including with camo cloaks plus LS storms are dedicated transports.
Love that all my techmarines (I have 8) and dreadnoughts (6) got tougher.
Love that my three thunderfire cannons have barrage. Don't like that they still cannot get servitors but at least mow I can keep them out of LOS.
My sternguard got base cheaper but combi weapons doubled in price. Got one of the new boxes already and have to say VERY impressed.

[Truculent Sheep]

You have to remember that Roboute's a big-picture, long-view kind of guy.

The problem with a 'big picture' approach is that it tends to leave out the details. Also, it tends to ignore anything that disagrees with it.


He knew what had to be done, and he knew it would be problematic, initially.

He knew there was a problem, but that's not the same as understanding what it actually was or the best course of action. The fact that it was problematic suggests he went about it in the wrong way too.


The point is that the Imperium RG held together lasted for 10,000 years, far longer than it probably otherwise would.

It has stagnated and suffered a slow death over 10,000 years. And you can't, in any case, presume that Marneus' reforms were responsible for its survival simply because no other alternative was entertained.


Guilliman's the man who made the Imperium of 40k

Contentious to say the least.


Also: it's Codex Space Marines. Roboute Guilliman is the man who made the Space Marines what they are today. Two thirds of all space marines are his direct genetic descendants. Of course it views him in a favourable light. :)

Just because his view prevailed doesn't mean it was the right view. What's good about 40k is that it tends to point out the feet of clay its protagonists have, including the Emperor himself. Marneus gets too easy a time of it, though at least this edition avoids the full-on fan-drool of v. 5.0.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yeah, but this is the basic background. The basic background has always had RG being unspeakably heroic. That hasn't changed and isn't going to. The Black Library does the subtleties, not the Codices.

The thing is, you can say "Guilliman gets an easy ride" and "maybe there was a better way", but according to the background - which is remarkably consistent - he doesn't, and there wasn't. Not a better way which anyone was in any kind of position to actually offer, anyway. Maybe Rogal Dorn had a better idea; except when it came down to it he tried to get himself and his Legion killed in a series of suicidal revenge missions rather than putting the human Imperium back together. Corvus Corax locked himself in his tower. Vulkan's legion was shattered. Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus were dead. Who could have done anything except Roboute?

One day, hopefully in the Horus Heresy series or if they continue into the Scouring, we'll have more of the subtlety, nuance, and conjecture. And that'll be an awesome thing, and we'll be able to have these discussions more fully. As it is, though, the background is the background.

Also, I'm unsure why you've lapsed into saying "Marneus".

[Drunkencorgimaster]

My three cents:

Artwork: Great cover, not so impressed with the rest. A surprisingly high amount of re-printed images, and some of the new pictures look hastily-painted in my opinion.

Rules: I love the new chapter specialization abilities, I like the new points costs, I'm not so happy about the special characters distribution. Looks like you pretty much have to play the smurfs if you want to have fun with characters.

Odor: if I could find cologne in Newly-Printed-GW-Book aroma, I'd buy it.

[Arkhan Land]

No more of this boute bashing you either learn to speak ultramarese or git out of this country!

seriously though Roboute is important but by and large I think the whole thing about 40k is the idea that everybody in this universe (i mean everybody) is lain to waste over the course of the thousands of years-long battles, even the emperor is just basically an oversized servo-skull, at the end of the day he dies in battle just like the lowliest of whiteshields, though your average imperial citizen doesnt get a stasis field and massive temple...

[The Sovereign]

even the emperor is just basically an oversized servo-skull, at the end of the day he dies in battle just like the lowliest of whiteshields

The fact that as soon as I read this my mind immediately went "Gasp! Heresy!" is a sign that I need to take a break from 40K and Black Library.

[Mr Mystery]

So more or less familiarised with the book now, and I'm impressed. I'm not seeing anything as massively overpowered, or indeed 'must have', beyond personal tastes which will vary from player to player.

In particular, the new additions don't over compete with the existing ones, so people with a Marine army from even 2nd Ed can just port it over, adjusting the points accordingly without the need to buy the latest 'must have' unit. And that even goes for the AA tanks, as Marines have ready access to Flakk missiles in their squads (Tactical, Scout, Devastator etc), so you arguably don't need the dedicated AA, though it is pretty tasty toys they got for that :)

[DarkLink]

• Ultramarines – The most flexible tactics, Ultramarines can choose from three Combat Doctrines over the course of the game either making them better in assault, shooting or moving and shooting.
• White Scars –get a big boost to bikes – they automatically pass Dangerous Terrain Tests, get +1 Strength to their Hammer of Wrath and virtually everything gets Hit & Run, especially useful as Combat Tactics is no more.
• Imperial Fists – Basically the army gets Bolter Drills, they can re-roll to hits of “1” with bolt-weapons. Their Devastator and Centurion squads also get Tank Hunter!
• Black Templars – In Challenges Black Templars re-roll to hit and get rending. They all get Crusader which lets them run to the enemy quicker and Sweeping Advance further.
• Iron Hands – Probably our favourite – they get Feel No Pain and all vehicles and characters have It Will Not Die. Techmarines then get a bonus to repair rolls. If you’re playing a vehicle heavy army these could be rather good!
• Salamander – re-roll saves when wounded by flame weapons they also re-roll to wound with their own flame weapons. All Sergeants gain a master-crafted something of their choice.
• Raven Guard – they all have Scout and get Stealth on the first turn. They get better jump packs too.

Lots of good options here. Poor Black Templar, their CT just kind of sucks. Raven Guard isn't all that great, either, since Assault Marines still aren't very good, but you can still build a nasty army around Scout/Stealth.




• Armour of Indominus – This provides a 2+ armour save and then for one turn an Invulnerable 2+ save! Oh, and you get Relentless too...

The Armour sucks. Just take the Shield, there really aren't any good guns on HQs worth spending that many points to get Relentless. The Burning Blade is pretty good, but when it comes down to it you should probably save points and get a Thunderhammer instead, assuming you're running the Shield Eternal.



Centurion Assault Squad – New toys! Basically these are super-terminators. T5, 2 wounds and a 2+ Armour Save is going to take some shifting. At first they don’t look too much of a big deal in assault with just one attack but this quickly becomes two for two weapons and three on the charge. Siege Drills are also not unwieldy so they could be good for Dreadnought bashing and other slow armoured targets.
They have Slow and Purposeful which will be frustrating as it means they can’t Run into position and neither can they fire Overwatch. They’re not a cheap option but should last a while on the table. First impressions are that they will need a Land Raider to work but we look forward to hearing how you fare with them!

THSS Terminators still trump them, unfortunately. Without an Invulnerable save, any threatening enemy assault units you'd want to send these guys after would be more scared of THSS Terminators.




Centurion Devastator Squad - The same stats as the Assault Centurions the Centurion Devastators come equipped with Hurricane Bolters and Twin-linked Heavy Bolter. They can be upgraded to have Missile Launchers in their chests and a Twin-linked Lascannon or Grav-Cannon. Our favourite option is the Grav-Cannon as they can fire 5 shots each and the Grav-Amp re-rolls to wound and to penetrate. It is short ranged at 24” and so again a Land Raider wouldn’t go amiss to get them in close.

Best gun in the game. Overpriced as they are, Land Raiders are greatly underrated. Drive forward, dump the Centurions, shoot stuff, and hide a scoring unit inside to grab an objective later. Plus, they're dedicated so you can make them scout.



Hunter – Another new toy. This fires a single missile that if it misses a flyer or flying monstrous creature will continue to try to hit them in subsequent turns. It has Skyfire so only fires Snap Shots against ground targets. Basically this is a must-have if your opponent has flyers but at 70 points isn’t going to break the bank if your opponent doesn’t have any. Be warned though that it will do NOTHING that game.

Stalker – This has a similar anti-flyer them to the Hunter. Again it’s limited to flying targets but has the option of firing 4 twin-linked shots or 8 single shots. Those 8 single shots come in handy against ground targets as there are so many shots some are bound to hit! The Stalker is probably the better choice of the two new vehicles unless you are sure your opponent has flyers when the Hunter will come in handy.

Yeah, Stalker's better. The Hunter would be solid if it were a 2-shot gun. At one shot, the odds of it missing or of the opponent making their cover save, or failing to roll an Explodes or Immobilized result are just too great.

[The Imperial Fist]

Maybe Rogal Dorn had a better idea; except when it came down to it he tried to get himself and his Legion killed in a series of suicidal revenge missions rather than putting the human Imperium back together.
He only engaged in one suicide mission. And though the current codex has missed this out, that - the Iron Cage - was to cleanse the soul of his legion, and to come out the other side ready to accept the codex. Before that the Legion scoured the galaxy of all traitor outposts remaining after the Heresy. They were driven by rage and mourning, but not suicidal. While at this time pappa smurf was too busy playing politics and trying to start another civil war.

[Truculent Sheep]

No more of this boute bashing you either learn to speak ultramarese or git out of this country!

Quantity does not equal quality...


seriously though Roboute is important but by and large I think the whole thing about 40k is the idea that everybody in this universe (i mean everybody) is lain to waste over the course of the thousands of years-long battles, even the emperor is just basically an oversized servo-skull, at the end of the day he dies in battle just like the lowliest of whiteshields, though your average imperial citizen doesnt get a stasis field and massive temple...

Warhammer 40,000 is about the clash between postmodernism and romanticism, or - latterly - existentialism. I'm not kidding.

[Truculent Sheep]

Yeah, but this is the basic background. The basic background has always had RG being unspeakably heroic.

Except that what the text conceals and what it really reveals tells a different story.


That hasn't changed and isn't going to. The Black Library does the subtleties, not the Codices.

Codices are there to mollify their (assumed) fanbase. The Black Library's take is the real story.


The thing is, you can say "Guilliman gets an easy ride" and "maybe there was a better way", but according to the background - which is remarkably consistent - he doesn't, and there wasn't.

Or rather, he came on top of a political squabble through blind luck and his successors then proceeded to write history in his favour.


Maybe Rogal Dorn had a better idea; except when it came down to it he tried to get himself and his Legion killed in a series of suicidal revenge missions rather than putting the human Imperium back together.

Dorn was driven to what he did in order to prove his loyalty - a tragic state of affairs indeed, and in part due to Guilleman's absolutism. Dorn wasn't a politician; RG was - more's the pity.


Corvus Corax locked himself in his tower. Vulkan's legion was shattered. Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus were dead. Who could have done anything except Roboute?

You mean the same Robute who had been humbled by the Word Bearers and bested by the Alpha Legion? Or the Robute who was willing to plunge the Imperium into another civil war just to prove a point?

It's also worth noting that many of the Legions ended up embracing the CA on their terms or just giving RG the finger and going it their own way regardless. Only Dorn, irony upon ironies, rolled over and submitted, and that was only after RG's antics (and the Iron Legion) had left him a broken man. RG's success is more down to the Ultramarine legion providing the bulk of the successor chapters. Imagine Windows prevailing over the far superior Mac O/S in the 90s, and you may well have your parallel.


One day, hopefully in the Horus Heresy series or if they continue into the Scouring, we'll have more of the subtlety, nuance, and conjecture.

And RG will get the bashing he deserves.


And that'll be an awesome thing, and we'll be able to have these discussions more fully. As it is, though, the background is the background.

There is no game without the background, no battles without the story.

[El_Davo]

Anyone else notice on pg 18 they mention the rainbow warriors? am i the only one who thinks thats awesome and wants to start a rainbow warriors chapter now?

[madlib]

I asked a similar question in the rumors thread prior to release of 6th edition SM codex, but I'll ask it again here and ask for a little further clarification that I don't think I got in the old thread.

What tactical niche do Centurions fill that Terminators don't already fill? The answer I got was that Centurions are MC killers, but aren't Terminators also capable of killing MC's? Keep in mind that I'm strictly a lore background nerd and haven't played 40k since 3rd edition. The reason I ask this is because I want to understand Centurions from a fluff perspective and I'm assuming GW's intended table top roll is where they want them to exist in the fluff too.

[Mr Mystery]

S9, AP2 CC weapons with Armourbane, that aren't Unwieldy?

Wade into Carnifex, rips it's legs off and ram them up it's chuff before it can strike back? Pricless!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

5 Centurions with a Librarian in a Land Raider Crusader? MMMMHMMMMM

[Mr Mystery]

Aren't they 'very bulky' and thus take up 3 transport slots though?

[Anggul]

I asked a similar question in the rumors thread prior to release of 6th edition SM codex, but I'll ask it again here and ask for a little further clarification that I don't think I got in the old thread.

What tactical niche do Centurions fill that Terminators don't already fill? The answer I got was that Centurions are MC killers, but aren't Terminators also capable of killing MC's? Keep in mind that I'm strictly a lore background nerd and haven't played 40k since 3rd edition. The reason I ask this is because I want to understand Centurions from a fluff perspective and I'm assuming GW's intended table top roll is where they want them to exist in the fluff too.

I was put off by this too. There's just no reason that I can see that justifies their existence when Terminators are already a thing. They're made of the same metal, so you can't say 'Terminator armour takes mores resources so it's reserved for veterans'.

It strikes me as similar to those parts in video games where you get to a certain point, hop into the big fancy tank/mech, smash your way through a section that without the big fancy thing would be exceedingly difficult with hilarious ease, then get to the end of that sections where the fancy gear conveniently breaks/runs out of power/can't fit through a gap and you have to get out and carry on in your normal get-up because it's more manoeuvrable.

The catch is that terminator armour isn't much less manoeuvrable and capable of going through facilities than power armour. Heck, they are most iconically known for fighting through the cramped corridors of space hulks. This, combined with their ability to mount heavy weapons and still have a power fist to deal out the hurt up close renders Centurions rather pointless in terms of fluff. They can mount cyclone missile launchers, assault cannons, heavy flamers and plasma cannons, and could mount other heavy weapons, but just don't have the option to do so for rules purposes, all the while also having a force field and a power fist which can be upgraded to a chainfist to carve through stuff. There really doesn't seem to be any point in putting on power armour, then getting into a larger exoskeleton, when you could just put on terminator armour.

It just seems to me like a case of 'everyone else got these really big things, but that wouldn't suit space marines, so we're going to have to come up with something else or they might feel left out'. Forge world already have it covered with Contemptors, which are awesome, but they don't take forge world into account when making the 'standard' GW releases, and that's fair enough.

Also they look like they can only waddle. :P

I prefer and will continue to use Terminators rather than Centurions, they make more sense fluff-wise and are much more flexible, but no doubt people will put Centurions to good use.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Multiwound heavy weapon platforms. Seriously, those things put out dakka, then they put out more dakka. Also, the only unit which can mount Grav Cannons, and because they're Relentless, you get 5 shots a turn, each, at full range.

Seriously, that's damned good.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Multiwound heavy weapon platforms. Seriously, those things put out dakka, then they put out more dakka. Also, the only unit which can mount Grav Cannons, and because they're Relentless, you get 5 shots a turn, each, at full range.

And that's the role they fill, as an alternative to battle tanks. They are to tanks as termies are to dreads. The issue is the CC ones, which IMO would have been better served with closer range SHOOTING weapons and then there'd be no role-crossover issues.
Say TL Hvy Flamer, TL MM and a pair of TL plasma guns as options.
The drills + flamers feels like a cop-out add-on that was chucked in the box because wraithguard got swords. I see the logic but marines are about firepower. And I'd personally be very worried about a unit that can knock out 12 TL plasma shots/turn!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The Assault Centurions are even better at splatting fortifications than Terminators are. Stick 'em in a Land Raider and sic 'em on a Fortress of Redemption; proceed to giggle.

It's always the case when there's a new unit where one wonders, well, where does this fit in? I think the Centurions are differentiated enough from Terminators in the background and in the game rules, but I understand that they're not for everyone. Nobody's going to force you to take them. :)

Did the audio stuff on the iPad version remind anyone else of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? ;)

[eldargal]

Does it matter if there is role overlap anyway? What's wrong with being able to choose to take two different units to do a similar job?

[Mr Mystery]

The Assault Centurions are really rather nifty....

If I go Marine at some point in the future, mine will have the Meltaguns and Hurricaine Bolters. They will kick the arse off pretty much anything nasty and gribbly out there. Ork Nobs? Eat S9, and I *still* swing before you, and ID you on every hit....

[Cap'nSmurfs]

While at this time pappa smurf was too busy playing politics and trying to start another civil war.

Last thing on this, because it's important to the Great Guilliman Conundrum: no he wasn't. He led the Ultramarines to rescue what remained of the Imperial Fists in the Iron Cage, remember. There's a reason those two Chapters are now very close to one another (there's a statue of Dorn on Macragge!). The "second civil war" - which didn't happen - was a result of the grief and anguish at what had happened in the Heresy more than anything. Dorn had cradled his dying father in his arms as the culmination of seven years of inconceivable betrayal and his personal feelings of helplessness, isolated from the frontlines while he fortified the palace. He sees Guilliman as someone who didn't pull his weight, who arrived suspiciously late, and who has uncertain motives (all of which seem to me to be charges which stick to the Lion way better, but Rogal doesn't know that). He doesn't trust him - why should he ever trust anyone ever again? - not least because what Roboute is proposing is radical. The situation is heated. It almost goes too far. But eventually everyone sees sense, and the two Primarchs reconcile through their shared sacrifices (and bloody vengeance) in the Scouring. That's the story. None of the Primarchs "sat around".

[Kaptain Badrukk]

They are fantastic at Ork killing, this is true. My poor nobs mobs will be very sad.
My issue is in the fluff, not the game. multi-filled roles is good! allows you to field a mono-behaviour army like templars without being pigeon holed by units. But from a fluff POV it a case of "We need X, we have developed Y to fill the role and it works perfectly."
Then they develop Z which also fills that role, and not massively better? (Unless they're Imperial fists of course).

[Kaptain Badrukk]

None of the Primarchs "sat around".

But the emprah was quite happy to have a nice sit down after all that effort!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

He spent most of the Heresy sitting around! Slacker.

[Mr Mystery]

That's......not exactly the background I read for them?

Rediscovered during the age of apostasy (or possibly just after. Not thatfamiliar with the book just yet!) they proved popular, as they can pack more firepower than a Dread, and go places where Dreads and Tanks cannot, without taking resources from the 1st Company.

[lattd]

Centurions seem to be the answer to chapters who have little terminator armour, plus the assault variant is more siege based than assault terminators who are anti heavy troops, the devastator variant is stable advancing heavy support where tanks are not possible, compared to shooty terminators who are close range fire fights but cannot deal with heavy armour.

[Brakkart]

What tactical niche do Centurions fill that Terminators don't already fill?

Basically they allow the Space Marines to bring the firepower of a tank into an area that a tank couldn't fit into. A Devastator Centurion packs almost as much firepower as a Predator (with sponsons) but you could use it in a Zone Mortalis game for example. The models could have been better (I wish they had borrowed a clue from Forgeworld's Contemptors with regard to the legs at least as those are incredibly poseable), but the rules for them and the role they are designed to fill are pretty well thought out I think. I know I'll be getting some for my army.

[SaveModifier]

The models could have been better (I wish they had borrowed a clue from Forgeworld's Contemptors with regard to the legs at least as those are incredibly poseable), but the rules for them and the role they are designed to fill are pretty well thought out I think. I know I'll be getting some for my army.

People seem to forget that GWs main demographic is new hobbyists, young, pre-teens mainly, so most kits need to be reasonably easy for kids with little experience to put together, although the Contemptor is a beautiful model and has a massive amount of poseability, anyone who has ever put one together (I've done three) in anything other than a "standing stock still" pose will confirm that they're a pain to pose right, certainly not do-able by someone picking up the hobby for the first time, as the legs consist of two ball joints (hips and ankles) and a knee joint, getting it right is tricky, most I've seen put together look dorky because people haven't made its movement look convincing.

[Learn2Eel]

I like the book a lot.

[Arkhan Land]

I agree, They dont look like they can take big big strides, another thing about the terminators comparison that I think is important Is size. Terminators are just short enough to take decent cover over fortifications and other cover that is designed for infantry, the centurions are head and a half above the same coverage.

Im also just kind of a little irked that they didnt tie them into the older fluff available on the smaller of the two dreadnoughts. They just finished pulling the comptemptor through the rift from 1991 I figured the centurions would be Deredos, the smaller class of dreads from back then, instead they went and made themselves an entirely new STC template nothing wrong with it, just felt like there was a missed opportunity there.

Not that i'm not going to pick some up or anything...

[Kirsten]

well my book arrived today and in summation it is awesome and I love it :3

[Deadlift]

well my book arrived today and in summation it is awesome and I love it :3

Got my Iron Hands ltd one today too, number 274 :D. I did hope to get number X but never mind. It's going straight on a book stand in the display cabinet. Just need to chuck the Waterford somewhere else.

[deinol]

Centurions seem to be for siege breaking, but current 40 k rules don't really have true siege missions. If you absolutely have to put holes in a space fortress, they can open a path.

[The Imperial Fist]

I was put off by this too. There's just no reason that I can see that justifies their existence when Terminators are already a thing.
The reason is gw wants more of your money...

[The Imperial Fist]

Last thing on this, because it's important to the Great Guilliman Conundrum: no he wasn't. He led the Ultramarines to rescue what remained of the Imperial Fists in the Iron Cage, remember. There's a reason those two Chapters are now very close to one another (there's a statue of Dorn on Macragge!). The "second civil war" - which didn't happen - was a result of the grief and anguish at what had happened in the Heresy more than anything. Dorn had cradled his dying father in his arms as the culmination of seven years of inconceivable betrayal and his personal feelings of helplessness, isolated from the frontlines while he fortified the palace. He sees Guilliman as someone who didn't pull his weight, who arrived suspiciously late, and who has uncertain motives (all of which seem to me to be charges which stick to the Lion way better, but Rogal doesn't know that). He doesn't trust him - why should he ever trust anyone ever again? - not least because what Roboute is proposing is radical. The situation is heated. It almost goes too far. But eventually everyone sees sense, and the two Primarchs reconcile through their shared sacrifices (and bloody vengeance) in the Scouring. That's the story. None of the Primarchs "sat around".
Yes, pretty much the last battle of it. Before that it's been stated that the Fists secured the Imperium, Dorn adopting black armour of mourning and laying waste to all the traitors who hung around or dawdled on the way to the eye. Papa smurf was back on Terra hashing out the codex and implementing the adaptuses. Then the almost civil war happened, with Dorn rather unhappy his Legion was still doing all the heavy lifting, then Perturabo laid on the joy of the iron cage. Guilliman intervened then only to stop the Fists destroying themselves at the same time as the Iron Warriors.

[Demonicsarge55]

Yes, pretty much the last battle of it. Before that it's been stated that the Fists secured the Imperium, Dorn adopting black armour of mourning and laying waste to all the traitors who hung around or dawdled on the way to the eye. Papa smurf was back on Terra hashing out the codex and implementing the adaptuses. Then the almost civil war happened, with Dorn rather unhappy his Legion was still doing all the heavy lifting, then Perturabo laid on the joy of the iron cage. Guilliman intervened then only to stop the Fists destroying themselves at the same time as the Iron Warriors.
Really Dorn and the Fists had no hope of beating the Iron Warriors with out Papa smurfs help.

[Truculent Sheep]

Yes, and hopefully RG felt a fair measure of guilt for his role in the tragedy too.

[DWest]

Not related to the Blue-and-Yellow violence, but;

Does anybody else want to see an Iron Hands special character wielding a Seismic Hammer, just for the sheer awesomeness of personally hitting somebody in the face with what should only be mounted on a Dreadnaught?

[Dalleron]

One thing perplexes me about the codex. Why are there 2 captain entries. Yes I know one is a termie captain, but couldn't that have been written into a regular captain entry. Trivial I know, but why do that?

[MajorWesJanson]

One thing perplexes me about the codex. Why are there 2 captain entries. Yes I know one is a termie captain, but couldn't that have been written into a regular captain entry. Trivial I know, but why do that?

Maybe future proofing for some supplements? "If you take a terminator captain, blah blah"

[DarkLink]

GW likes doing stupid stuff like that. I wouldnt look too much into it.

[Nabterayl]

One thing perplexes me about the codex. Why are there 2 captain entries. Yes I know one is a termie captain, but couldn't that have been written into a regular captain entry. Trivial I know, but why do that?
Terminator Captains don't allow for Command Squads. Other ways you could have achieved the same result, but this way works.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I'm not seeing where a Terminator Captain can't have a Command Squad. The entries are split just for ease of reference, means the entry for Captain wargear options isn't ten yards long like it used to be. Background specifically designates the Terminator Captain as the First Company Captain, but you don't have to abide by that.

[Patrick Boyle]

I'm not seeing where a Terminator Captain can't have a Command Squad. The entries are split just for ease of reference, means the entry for Captain wargear options isn't ten yards long like it used to be. Background specifically designates the Terminator Captain as the First Company Captain, but you don't have to abide by that.

By the nature of Captain and Terminator Captain being separate entries, they're entirely separate entities such that a Captain and a Terminator Captain are not the same thing. The Command Squad profile says you can take one Command Squad for each Captain, Librarian, or Chaplain in your army including Sicaruius, Tigurius, Cassius, Khan, Vulkan, Shrike, Lysander and Grimaldus. Notice what unit isn't on that list? Terminator Captain. Therefore no Command Squad if you take a Terminator Captain.


edit - Except it just occurred to me Lysander is on the list of commanders eligible to take a Command Squad, so now it's all muddled again. RAW I'd still say no Command Squad for a Terminator Captain but it probably needs to be clarified via FAQ...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I think you can take a Command Squad for a Terminator Captain no sweat. Lysander is the evidence.

[Patrick Boyle]

Then what was the point of making them distinct, separate units, then not listing Terminator Captain on the list of units eligible to unlock a command squad? Terminator Armor Librarians, Chaplains and Chapter Masters aren't split out the same way, so it clearly wasn't due to some attempt to clean up the wargear entries for the Captain. Going by the words on the page the only obvious reason is to make it so you can't take a Command Squad if you put your Captain in terminator armor.

[MajorWesJanson]

Then what was the point of making them distinct, separate units, then not listing Terminator Captain on the list of units eligible to unlock a command squad? Terminator Armor Librarians, Chaplains and Chapter Masters aren't split out the same way, so it clearly wasn't due to some attempt to clean up the wargear entries for the Captain. Going by the words on the page the only obvious reason is to make it so you can't take a Command Squad if you put your Captain in terminator armor.

Or to allow for a later supplement to offer a terminator command squad linked to the terminator captain (Salamanders, Iron Hands could both use that option)

[Cap'nSmurfs]

You're overthinking it. We'll see if there's an FAQ.

On the subject of Command Squads, though, did anyone else notice you can't take a special weapon anymore? You can take a combiweapon, but not the full version.

[Patrick Boyle]

You're overthinking it. We'll see if there's an FAQ.

On the subject of Command Squads, though, did anyone else notice you can't take a special weapon anymore? You can take a combiweapon, but not the full version.

FAQ today errata'd it back.

[DarkLink]

Nice.

[RGilbert26]

Unfortunately I've already built my Command Squad and they're a all CC. Interestingly you can now field four special weapons :P

[Mr Mystery]

I think you can take a Command Squad for a Terminator Captain no sweat. Lysander is the evidence.

I actually disagree..... Entry doesn't mention Terminator Captains, but does mention Lysander. Lysander is not a Terminator Captain. Lysander is a Lysander, a unique game entity.... Sorry. I feel dirty being all RAW and that....

Yes I'm happy it's just an oversight though.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Nah, I feel like enough precedent is set, by 'including Sicarius, Vulkan, Lysander' etc. to indicate that those individuals are Captains, or Chaplains in Cassius and Grimaldus' case. It would be nice for it to be explicitly stated but my reading - remembering that because all reading is interpretation, 'rules as written' isn't always watertight - is that it's probably okay.

Glad they FAQ'd the Special Weapons. Seemed odd, especially as all the pictures in the book have a Command Squad with a Special. :)

[GravesDisease]

I always thought it was backwards how captains get a useful command squad but chapter masters were lumbered with the overcosted and somewhat useless honour guard.

Is this still the case?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Honour Guard are way down in points. An Honour Guard with a Relic Blade is about 20 points cheaper, individually. They're pretty tasty now, I'd say.

[Kirsten]

hoping a raven guard supplement allows for honour/command squads to take jump packs.

[Learn2Eel]

On a personal note, I'm really starting to lead towards a Crimson Fists army for two reasons. The first is that Pedro is exactly what I would want from a Chapter Master; a decent enough combat character, but comes with a lot of supporting abilities. Scoring Sternguard and a +1 attack bubble? Awesome! The second is the Sternguard themselves. The models are ridiculously good. When I am finished with my Eldar and (depending on codex releases) have consolidated my Tyranids I want to do a Space Marine army with only the new models as my Marines. So Sternguard for all my Sternguard, maybe a Sternguard box for my other units' Sergeants. New Tacticals for both Tactical Marines and Devastators, get the heavy weapons I need from Forge World. That way, all of my Marines are the new bulkier ones!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I just bought a box of the new Sternguard. This release has been so good I shelved the Eldar for the time being. And I really like those Eldar!

[Stone Edwards]

I just bought a box of the new Sternguard. This release has been so good I shelved the Eldar for the time being. And I really like those Eldar!

Sadly I think this is going to cause me to focus on my DA/SM army as well and ignore my Eldar for a little bit. Oh well I'm sure I'll be back.

[Cadian122]

The Terminator Captain can't take a Relic Blade, that's the difference I can see.

I agree with the people who said that the Centurions fill the role of a Battle tank in a smaller space, (I.e. Sieges and in the Zone Mortalis)

[DarkLink]

I always thought it was backwards how captains get a useful command squad but chapter masters were lumbered with the overcosted and somewhat useless honour guard.

Is this still the case?

Honor Guard are a lot less useless. I don't know if they're actually good, though.

[biffster666]

The blurb that's been up since at least this past weekend on the Black Library pushing IA: Centurions...


Designed as siege breakers and for the close quarters of boarding actions, Centurions are heavy exo-armour suits used by specialist Space Marine formations. Incorporating either close range weapons like siege drills or heavy weapons, each Centurion a formidable adversary.

I dig the Tubbinators. I'm boggled why people aren't more excited about them. I sure am, and I don't even have access to them in my two SM armies (SW and GK). Unlike standard Dev squads, Dev Tubbiess can laugh at Dark Reapers reaching out to try and say 'Hi'. Put a full Dev Squad with Lascannons and ML's on a Skyshield landing pad..T5, 2W 2+/4++ and hey, I bet Tiggy the Ultrapsyker would make both types of Tubbies squads go from 'kewl' to 'Make the bad man stop!!!' in a hurry, maybe some Perfect Timing??? Yeah, Tiggy rolling around in a Land Raider Crusader with 5 CC Tubbies. Swap in Melta and Hurricane Bolters and Tiggy makes use of that funny psychic power re-roll thing and access to EVERY school and he ends up getting a crappy combo of powers like Endurance(FNP/IWND/Relentless), Foreboding(overwatch at full BS) and Forewarning (4++, just what every Land Raider/Tubbie/Tiggy combo needs!). Or maybe he'd get Invisibility, Misfortune, Puppet Master, Terrify, Enfeeble, etc. etc. hhhmmmm, nah, that's not going to work at all. GW needs to figure out some kinda roll for them to fill or people might never field them!

I dig the Hunter(Armourbane/AP2/Savant Lock) the first S7 AA weapon I actually like. The Stalker is too much 'spray and pray' IMO, so glad Savant Lock can only be used on Flyers and MFC's. The new Sternguard might be the kewlest kit GW has put out to date, the sprues are packed with goodness that goes far beyond the squad you purchased. Definitely worth the $50 and then some IMO.

Thumbs up that GW locked down special characters to the Chapters they belong to and Chapter Tactics to the Founding and Suckers.

Looking forward to putting an Iron Hands army together and also facing off against the new look SM's with my Eldar and Necron. GW also gets a huge thumbs up for putting out all the new 6th ed stuff across the board in such a rapid fire manner in 2013.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Centurions are sick. They look pretty nice when they're actually in your hand, too. I don't have any yet, but I'm not ruling it out.

[Katharon]

Centurions are sick. They look pretty nice when they're actually in your hand, too. I don't have any yet, but I'm not ruling it out.

A single unit of six Centurions with lascannons, MLs, and omniscope. Costly, but more effective than any two regular Devastator squads combined.

[Learn2Eel]

Centurions are sick. They look pretty nice when they're actually in your hand, too. I don't have any yet, but I'm not ruling it out.

Yep, people diss the models but they are actually nice looking. They are certainly a bit odd though, they look too exaggerated size-wise for my taste. I might get some when and if I do Crimson Fists.


A single unit of six Centurions with lascannons, MLs, and omniscope. Costly, but more effective than any two regular Devastator squads combined.

Are you sure? Unless my Battlescribe app is wrong, that Centurion unit you describe is 560 points, compared to twenty Devastators in two units of ten with four lascannons each for 440 points in total. I don't see how Centurions are more effective. They put out more shots, but they lose firepower a lot quicker and have less ablative wounds against things like S10 AP2 guns such as Heavy Wraithcannons and Vindicators.

[Mr Mystery]

Not sure they do lose firepower quicker.... They're T5, with 2 wounds, a 2+ save. They laugh at Battlcannon shells. They s****** impolitely at Lascannon blasts. They do however get a bit nervous around Demolisher Cannons....

They're easier to stash away in cover to boot, which is always welcome. And the six of them pump out more firepower than the 20 Devs. 6 Missle Launchers, 6 twin linked Lascannon. It's certainly dakka o'clock when they're around!

[krispy]

OT from centurions, im curious about what you guys think about if its ok to use Telion or Chronus in an army which is not an ultramarine (or successor) army using the UM chapter tactics, they have those little UM logos by the names and i have normally treated chronus and telion as upgrades. but if i were to play with Crimson Fists and the Imperial Fists Chapter tactics -> am i allowed to have those guys?

and while im on the topic - if you had an iron hands chapter and had chronus on a Land Raider - would you then get two it will not die rolls per turn?

/k

[Learn2Eel]

Not sure they do lose firepower quicker.... They're T5, with 2 wounds, a 2+ save. They laugh at Battlcannon shells. They s****** impolitely at Lascannon blasts. They do however get a bit nervous around Demolisher Cannons....

They're easier to stash away in cover to boot, which is always welcome. And the six of them pump out more firepower than the 20 Devs. 6 Missle Launchers, 6 twin linked Lascannon. It's certainly dakka o'clock when they're around!

You have to remember that the Devastators - with smart placement - have to lose six Toughness four 3+ wounds per unit before they lose any of their heavy firepower, whereas the Centurions only have to lose two Toughness five 2+ wounds. As well, there are two Devastator units to the one Centurion unit, making them far less vulnerable to the S7+ AP2 small and large blasts from Riptides, Vindicators and the like. In 6th Edition, there are simply too many easy ways to kill 2+ armour, even if it is Toughness five with two wounds per model.

[Mr Mystery]

True.

But you can always split the Centurions across two units as well.

[Learn2Eel]

True.

But you can always split the Centurions across two units as well.

Yep! Mind you, I like Centurions and think they have great potential, but running a full on large unit with upgrades could be suicide!

[Mr Mystery]

Depends what you're up against really.

Dark Eldar and Orks? Nuh uh. No way am I fielding Centurions against them!

[Katharon]

Depends what you're up against really.

Dark Eldar and Orks? Nuh uh. No way am I fielding Centurions against them!

6-man Centurion squad with heavy bolters and hurricaine bolters and with Imperial Fist attributes...uh, hell yeah I'd take them.

[Cadian122]

OT from centurions, im curious about what you guys think about if its ok to use Telion or Chronus in an army which is not an ultramarine (or successor) army using the UM chapter tactics, they have those little UM logos by the names and i have normally treated chronus and telion as upgrades. but if i were to play with Crimson Fists and the Imperial Fists Chapter tactics -> am i allowed to have those guys?

and while im on the topic - if you had an iron hands chapter and had chronus on a Land Raider - would you then get two it will not die rolls per turn?

/k

Unfortunately, Chronus and Telion are Ultramarines-Only. You could do a homebrew or successor chapter using Ultramarines Chapter tactics, but not in armies using other Chapter tactics. All the Characters can only be used in an army using its own chapter tactics. The closest you get to breaking that would be Pedro Kantor and Lysander - both use the IF chapter tactics, but they're from 2 different chapters.

[Learn2Eel]

6-man Centurion squad with heavy bolters and hurricaine bolters and with Imperial Fist attributes...uh, hell yeah I'd take them.

Just remember that Centurions with twin-linked heavy bolters and hurricane bolters don't benefit from Bolter Drill, as you can't re-roll a re-roll (hurricane bolters are also always twin-linked).

[Cadian122]

Just remember that Centurions with twin-linked heavy bolters and hurricane bolters don't benefit from Bolter Drill, as you can't re-roll a re-roll (hurricane bolters are also always twin-linked).

Although the Tank Hunters would come in handy against Rhinos, Razorbacks, Raiders, Centuars, Trukks, anything AV 11 or under.

Personally though, I'd take 2 units of 3, 1 with Lascannons, Missile Launchers, the other one with Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers. I play Imperial Fists, so the Tank Hunters will come in handy, e.g. v. Orks, I can use the lascannon unit to take out Battlewagons, Dreadnoughts, Nobz, etc... while the other unit takes out the Trukks, Killa Kanz, and, when they're all dead, load up the Frag Missiles and Heavy Bolters. The Missiles mean that I can get the full firepower from the squad without having to be close up and personal (which is what I have Terminators for.)

[Katharon]

Just remember that Centurions with twin-linked heavy bolters and hurricane bolters don't benefit from Bolter Drill, as you can't re-roll a re-roll (hurricane bolters are also always twin-linked).

18 twin-linked heavy bolter shots and 18 twin-linked bolter shots at 24" (and make that 36 twin-linked boltgun shots at 12"). I wouldn't really need concern myself with Chapter attributes like Bolter Drill with that much twin-linked sitting around. With that much lead flying, you could easily chop through a 30-man Squad of boys (enough to make them possible break from a failed morale check).

[Learn2Eel]

I think that may be a decent role for Centurions actually. Just massed bolter shots. Again, I would still avoid taking squads of four or more, that is simply too many points to invest in such a low model count unit.

[DWest]

What about 2 bolter-centurions, then give the sarge the las, missile, and omniscope? Worst case scenario, he flings frags at the horde with the other two, but if there are multiple things that need killing, he can split his fire.

[DarkLink]

Way overpriced for too little firepower. Grey knight, tau, eldar, and others get more firepower for cheaper.

[biffster666]

Way overpriced for too little firepower. Grey knight, tau, eldar, and others get more firepower for cheaper.

Dude, really? This...from you. Anyone else makes that statement and you're one of the first people in line to go full on mathlogical

/geekvoice on

Have you taken into account that base Eldar/Tau are T3, GK 4, and the Centurion T5?. Centurions also have 2W. Relative squad size comparisons and of course Vehicle cross charts Please show me the various equations/formulas you used to reach this conclusion

/geekvoice off

I'm sure you ran the numbers though dude, you just didn't want to bother us with details ;)

Everyone is in love with Regular Dev squads again, so cheap blah blah blah. With a 3+ armor save, my Dark Reapers still love you long time yum yum. Aren't you glad they're so cheap though?

3 Tubbinators with Lascannons/ML uuuhhh, oh I got these kewl Starshots now!!!! oh wait, still ap3. My Dark Reapers do not like this at all...ever.

I love the CC Tubbies even more! Smurfs should have been running TiggyTubbieRaider Bombs 8am day1, maybe you'll run into one at a shop near you and it will change your mind.

It's not mathlogical, but I love me some Tubbies!!!!

[DarkLink]

6 Broadsides get, what, 24 Str 5 ignores LOS/Cover shots to 30", and 24 Str 7 shots, all twin-linked, with options for BS buffs and cover denial.

Dark Eldar can probably take more Lance shots than that in 360pts. But more relevant, 360pts gets you, what, like 7 Venoms? That's 84 (?) Twin Linked Poison shots, I believe, and 7 Skimmers is not that fragile.

360pts is a lot to spend hoping to glance Land Raiders to death, or hoping that you manage to put a wound or two on a Riptide, or sadface as Wave Serpents fly around uncontested, or as a Land Raider runs at you with Paladins or THSS Terminators.

They're not terrible, no, but they don't really bring anything to your army that you can't get elsewhere more efficiently.

[biffster666]

First I need to figure out how you came up with the 360pts

3 LC/ML Tubbies are 280, 290 if you throw on a scope which I didn't even mention. hhhhmmm maybe Tiggy somehow at 165??? nope, ok I'm lost. Math is hard.

Xenos examples and more efficently elsewhere in the army, alrighty.

The Broadsides fire a hailstorm of withering fire!!!! that falls well short of the Tubbinators who have no problem destroying the Broadsides at range untouched...the crowd goes WILD!!!!! 48" bro. Hu hu that was kewl Beavis

Dark Eldar, the range thing again and no, not 7 Venoms

Comparing them to an actual Heavy support from the Space Marine Heavy

The 'new new' 10 man regular Dev squad from hell of doom!!! With 4 Lascannons because they are only 20pts!!!!! 220pts vs. 290pts 3 Tubbies LC/ML with Scope

10W, T4, 3+ vs. 6W, T5, 2+

4 LC no reroll vs. 3 LC with rerolls and 3 ML

Moving and firing much Regular Dev's? No sweeping advance???? No Overwatch???? A Heavy Weapons squad craves not these things.

Signum < Scope

Have fun with the 'new new' wwwhhhhooooaaaaa that was kewl!

[Katharon]

Again, I would still avoid taking squads of four or more, that is simply too many points to invest in such a low model count unit.

I would say that this should be dependent upon point-size of the army and the tactical ability of the player in question. I personally feel comfortable having a six-man squad in a 2k point army, but I might split that in half or reduce it in a 1,5k army.

[The Madman]

hey, saw no reason to start another thread with this question and I've not got the book yet myself.
Do SM have Terminator Command squads and are they similar to Deathwing command squads (I.E have Standard bearers and apothecaries)? just want to know before I begin modelling them.

[Mr Mystery]

Nope. No Terminator Command for you, Colonel Vanilla! :p

[GravesDisease]

First I need to figure out how you came up with the 360pts

3 LC/ML Tubbies are 280, 290 if you throw on a scope which I didn't even mention. hhhhmmm maybe Tiggy somehow at 165??? nope, ok I'm lost. Math is hard.
...


Whilst you do seem to be needlessly scathing I will also add to your list of plus points that Centurions are slow & purposeful which affords them a level of maneuverability that broadsides simply don't enjoy. This is especially effective given what you have mentioned about the range advantage.

[The Madman]

Nope. No Terminator Command for you, Colonel Vanilla! :p

Aaw...

is the option to take a terminator squad as part of a HQ choice still there or is it completely gone?

[Learn2Eel]

First I need to figure out how you came up with the 360pts

3 LC/ML Tubbies are 280, 290 if you throw on a scope which I didn't even mention. hhhhmmm maybe Tiggy somehow at 165??? nope, ok I'm lost. Math is hard.

Xenos examples and more efficently elsewhere in the army, alrighty.

The Broadsides fire a hailstorm of withering fire!!!! that falls well short of the Tubbinators who have no problem destroying the Broadsides at range untouched...the crowd goes WILD!!!!! 48" bro. Hu hu that was kewl Beavis

Dark Eldar, the range thing again and no, not 7 Venoms

Comparing them to an actual Heavy support from the Space Marine Heavy

The 'new new' 10 man regular Dev squad from hell of doom!!! With 4 Lascannons because they are only 20pts!!!!! 220pts vs. 290pts 3 Tubbies LC/ML with Scope

10W, T4, 3+ vs. 6W, T5, 2+

4 LC no reroll vs. 3 LC with rerolls and 3 ML

Moving and firing much Regular Dev's? No sweeping advance???? No Overwatch???? A Heavy Weapons squad craves not these things.

Signum < Scope

Have fun with the 'new new' wwwhhhhooooaaaaa that was kewl!

Firstly, what the hell did I just read?

Secondly, did I seriously just read someone saying Centurions are better than Broadsides?

[Kaptain Badrukk]

What's that quote from finding nemo? Ah Yes.

Squirt: Good afternoon. We're gonna have a great jump today. Okay, first crank a hard cutback as you hit the wall. There's a screaming bottom curve, so watch out. Remember: rip it, roll it, and punch it.
Marlin: It's like he's trying to speak to me, I know it.
[to Squirt]
Marlin: Look, you're really cute, but I can't understand what you're saying. Say the first thing again.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd just like to remind people that this is Bell of Lost Souls Lounge. It is not Warseer. Or Dakkadakka. Or any other Forum you might frequent.

Here, we pride ourselves on being able to conduct an entirely civil disagreement. Please can everyone just simmer down and stick to using grown up words, and indeed, grown up attitudes.

Please.

[biffster666]

Simmer? Not heated, Tubbies are stone cold killers! heh heh

I'd try out the Big C+ Tiggy+ Tubbies+ Crusader in 2k. I'd just run Tiggy/Librarian + Tubbies + Land Raider in 1500pts.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Many of us do not speak this newfangled web language.
And find your mode of speech to be both confusing and alarming good sir or madam.
We understand your enthusiasm and it is appreciated, but please keep the internet vernacular and capital shouting to a minimum.
When making a point, a moment or two to give a fuller explanation is appreciated.
Try saying it out loud before you type it.
If you speak like this in real life, and to real people, than mayhap we cannot reach mutual understanding. Or one of the kind young folks on here will translate for me :)

[Learn2Eel]

I'd just like to remind people that this is Bell of Lost Souls Lounge. It is not Warseer. Or Dakkadakka. Or any other Forum you might frequent.

Here, we pride ourselves on being able to conduct an entirely civil disagreement. Please can everyone just simmer down and stick to using grown up words, and indeed, grown up attitudes.

Please.

Yep, this is my favourite thing about this forum. I get into heated discussions a lot but it never degenerates into name calling.

[biffster666]

Sure thing Kaptain, and what an awesome I'm the adult laced with multiple solid backhands delivery. Very good flow, and the multiple 'We/Us' statements is an excellent touch. Bravo!


The Centurions (Tubbinators) seem to be considerred very situational at best by the folks who run SM armies. I have 4 armies currently totalling about 35k or so but none of them are Codex SM. I ordered the Codex and 2 boxes of the Tubbinators and Sternguard(probably the kewlest kit ever) for my brother (a very happy Smurf indeed). IMO, Dev Tubbies are a better standard HS choice than the Regular Dev squad. 10 man Regular Dev squad with 4 LC is 220pts. A 3 man Dev Tubbies LC/ML + scope is 290pts

Regular Dev's squad is 10W, T4, 3+, 4 LC no rerolls vs. 3 Tubbies 6W, T5, 2+, 3 twin linked LC, 3ML, Slow and Purposeful, Splitfire/Night Vision

A few examples of Tubbie goodness from my earlier post...


I dig the Tubbinators. I'm boggled why people aren't more excited about them. I sure am, and I don't even have access to them in my two SM armies (SW and GK). Unlike standard Dev squads, Dev Tubbiess can laugh at Dark Reapers reaching out to try and say 'Hi'. Put a full Dev Squad with Lascannons and ML's on a Skyshield landing pad..T5, 2W 2+/4++ and hey, I bet Tiggy the Ultrapsyker would make both types of Tubbies squads go from 'kewl' to 'Make the bad man stop!!!' in a hurry, maybe some Perfect Timing??? Yeah, Tiggy rolling around in a Land Raider Crusader with 5 CC Tubbies. Swap in Melta and Hurricane Bolters and Tiggy makes use of that funny psychic power re-roll thing and access to EVERY school and he ends up getting a crappy combo of powers like Endurance(FNP/IWND/Relentless), Foreboding(overwatch at full BS) and Forewarning (4++, just what every Land Raider/Tubbie/Tiggy combo needs!). Or maybe he'd get Invisibility, Misfortune, Puppet Master, Terrify, Enfeeble, etc. etc. hhhmmmm, nah, that's not going to work at all. GW needs to figure out some kinda roll for them to fill or people might never field them!

I dig the Hunter(Armourbane/AP2/Savant Lock) the first S7 AA weapon I actually like. The Stalker is too much 'spray and pray' IMO, so glad Savant Lock can only be used on Flyers and MFC's. The new Sternguard might be the kewlest kit GW has put out to date, the sprues are packed with goodness that goes far beyond the squad you purchased. Definitely worth the $50 and then some IMO.

Thumbs up that GW locked down special characters to the Chapters they belong to and Chapter Tactics to the Founding and Suckers.

Looking forward to putting an Iron Hands army together and also facing off against the new look SM's with my Eldar and Necron. GW also gets a huge thumbs up for putting out all the new 6th ed stuff across the board in such a rapid fire manner in 2013.

A few more comparison posts, followed by simmer, and now here we are.

Happy to continue the discussion about the new SM codex as a whole or any particular part. I think it's a strong new Codex for the SM and as people become more familiar with their new rules/tactics it's going to only get better! I'm bummed that the SW will probably not get Tubbies (and they're the only chapter that still has zip for AA beyond a fortification, but I digress he hheh) and they'll still be stuck with three different units with WS/BS3 (Blood Claws, Bikers, Skyclaws). I didn't think I'd build another army, but I'm definitely putting together an Iron Hands army. My Codex and Strike Force should arrive at my local shop today, so good! GW gets a huge thumbs up from me for how quickly they have been rolling out all the 6th edition stuff in 2013.

Hug a Tubbie today! :D You like that text wall??? I knew you would :D

[biffster666]

I'm definitely thinking about getting another Strike Force. The amount of $ saved is sweet. I really like the create your own Combi weapon in the new Tac squad, and I think it's awesome that GW put a Razorback in the set instead of a Rhino. The only Rhino's I've ever purchased were in the old SM battle force for my brother, heh heh. I picked up the Stalker/Hunter kit for my brothers Smurfs and was surprised that GW created two different turrets instead of sharing most/all the parts between them so you could only make one or the other. He sacrificed a Rhino so he could create both AA tanks. He's adding some armor plates to bulk up his 'Stalker'. I've liked almost all the new plastic HQ's that GW created for each race so far, but I passed on the new Captain for now because I don't like that he's got a combi grav gun. I also couldn't resist two boxes of the new Sternguard kits, my SW raided both kits for extra combi/special weapons :D. It's just such an awesome kit, probably the best one GW has put out to date IMO.

[DarkLink]

I've noticed that some of the arms in the Vanguard box have little conveniently magnet-sized holes in them.

[Vangrail]

Love the stern guard mine have tons of bionics now. My centurions are posed a little differnt with magnatized guns. My sons of medusa are really stong now got tougher. Also ven dreads are dirt cheap so im really happy. Also vaylund cal from the badab war part two was a tank before now he has feel no pain and it will not die and im loving it!

[Sitnam]

So any Iron Hands players thought about using new Legion of the Danmed as a stand-in for some heavy bionics veterans?

[biffster666]

I've noticed that some of the arms in the Vanguard box have little conveniently magnet-sized holes in them.

Nice! I haven't started putting the Sternguard together yet, not sure if they have them as well. I'll take a look at them when I get home.

I still like the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics the most so far. The Raven Guard are starting to climb the charts though heh heh. A few of the Legion of the Damned models have a definite Iron Hands look to them. The Iron Hands upgrade pack looks pretty kewl IMO, I'll be ordering a few.

[DarkLink]

It's only a couple of them. I haven't tried assembling the box I got (since I got it for bits mainly, I don't need the bodies atm).

[biffster666]

I didn't find any of the ready made magnet holes on the Sternguard arms. Not a big deal, but I'm curious if they were they on the arm where it meets the body or the hand? If it's where the arm/hand connect I might swap them to Sternguards because I think I'll switch between the different weapon types the most with Sternguard.

[Vangrail]

So any Iron Hands players thought about using new Legion of the Danmed as a stand-in for some heavy bionics veterans? i have i just wish they didnt have to deep strike. I would totally use them as mainly bionic guys. Had that idea last book but didnt know if it would work.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Hug a Tubbie today! :D You like that text wall??? I knew you would :D

I did!
Thank you biffster, I now understand the point you were trying to make.
And I have to say I agree entirely, they are well worth taking based on the evidence you have laid out.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm actually rather tempted by Marines this time around.

Between the Strikeforce, and only needing a couple of units beyond that, they have tickled my fancy good and proper.

And nyeh to the haters, I like the Centurions, and intend to field some, because I think they are sweetly pretty, and have loadsa dakka.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

On an aside the guy at my local gw has managed to pose them more dynamically by ignoring the instructions on how to pose the waist and legs. They look good. My only issue is that there are only 6 arms, which means multiple pointing hands is squads of 6.

[Mr Mystery]

Line them up, Motown Centurions....

My friend has a set, built as Devastator Centurions, and he's left off the shoulder guards.

Make them look closer to diddy Dreadknights, but I think some might prefer them. Certainly makes the proportions look slightly less odd.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

All I can see in my head now is how easy it'd be to stop-motion one into doing the dance from YMCA using blu-tac.
That is AMAZING!

[Psychosplodge]

And nyeh to the haters, I like the Centurions, and intend to field some, because I think they are sweetly pretty, and have loadsa dakka.

Nope. They're the ugliest models since the Dreadknight, which was the ugliest model since the penitent engine, or viceversa (can't remember what came first and too lazy to look)

[Mr Mystery]

Penitent Engine > Dreadknight > Centurions.

Do keep up!

And nyeh, I like them, so...yeah. Nyeh to you! Can't wait to let the Siege Drills do some Dentistry on an unsuspecting Tyranid Gribbly.


Open your gob, it doesn't matter which, and say AARRRRGH!!!!

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Nope. They're the ugliest models since the Dreadknight, which was the ugliest model since the penitent engine, or viceversa (can't remember what came first and too lazy to look)

I liked the penitent engine. As for the papoose-knight, well yeah, fair enough. Looks good with an ork in it though! But then what doesn't?

[Psychosplodge]

Nah, a Plastic contemptor would have been nice...

[Mr Mystery]

I guess.

I do like Contemptors too.

Mad idea of the day #2. Contemptor, with a squad of Centurions attached via Greenstuff reins, like I used to have as a nipper.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I guess.

I do like Contemptors too.

Mad idea of the day #2. Contemptor, with a squad of Centurions attached via Greenstuff reins, like I used to have as a nipper.

I like that a great deal.
It makes me smile.

[biffster666]

It's all good Kap. I agree 100% with you and Mr. Mystery about how static they are. Definitely a downside to the Tubbie models. I laughed at the different examples GW added to the directions. I'm going forward, you guys go LEFT!!!! My brother put the first three together and I'm kit bashing the others for him. I've almost got a kewl uppercut pose figured out with that specific set of arms. I'll be out of town until Oct. though so I won't be able to work on them again until then.

I caved the Monday after I picked up the new SM codex and other goodies I ordered for my Smurf brother Mr. Mystery, heh heh. I don't 'need' to start putting a new army together. What I 'need' is that Strike Force so I can start putting a new army together!!! It's almost 'mega force' time also. One will be SM as usual, and I'm guessing Tyranids for the other if the Nov. release of the new codex is true. They'll be a good deal also. 'nyeh', that's funny. I'll have to remember that.