Most powerful/influential Chapter

[Crazy Jedi]

Howdy folks, as I often do while reading 40k fluff stuff, I began to ponder which Space Marine Chapter is the most powerful.

I mean this as in using all their assets, and allies, whether they be successor chapters, their own numbers, or other allied Imperial forces.

So as a rough breakdown, my top five would have to be:
Ultramarines: Their own mini Imperium, and they retain close relations with many of their successor chapters.
Blood Angels: Those crazy abilities they have, and close ties with many of their successor chapters (i do believe that's the case with them, but its been a while since ive read that fluff)
Black Templars: 3-10,000 rock hard, mad as hell zealots. I'll take that.
Minotaurs: If I'm correct, isn't it hinted that they basically work with the Inquisition.
Dark Angels: Hints that they are secretly using their successors to legion build, and doing it pretty blatantly? My favorite chapter has to have the best lawyers.

This list is simply what I could think of, and it's quite early out here, so what are your thoughts on this topic?

[Wolfshade]

Ultramarines by far, as you say they have their own mini-empire. The huge number of sucessor chapters means that most war will be prosecuted the ultramarine way. They have the most stable geneseed.

I think BA are influential rather than powerful, their own geneseed is flawed and that instability means that they spend a lot of time and effort persuing an internal agenda. That being said, chapter masters have deferred to Dante on strategy before now, and his longevitiy gives him a lot of knowledge.

Templars I'd say were opposite of BA, their large numbers and that they are fleet based means that they are always ready to prosecute war, they are solely driven by the crusade in a way that others are not. It is their singlemindeness that I think makes them more powerful than influential as I see them doing what they wish to do when they want to do without really caring what else is going on around them.

In this regard DA are similiar to BT, DA are single minded but they persue their own agenda often without any heed of any "allies" that might stand in their way. The hunt for the fallen is a flaw that isolates them from the imperium, however their mastery of plasma must not go unoticed.

I think SW should be fairly high on the list, if they were a DnD character they would be Chaotic Good. They have a clear sense of right and wrong and will go to barberous lengths to persue this. This clear objective centred approach makes them very influential as their motives are very clear and the ferocity means that people would wish to stand out of their way or in support. Also, one must recall they are breed to be the marine killers.

Grey Knights to me would be at the extreme end of powerful, but have almost no influence. Their deeds and history are shrouded in secret and even those who fight along side them are often cleansed for their own benefit. While I get the impression they are not designed to fight a large and wide conflict, they are more the scapel to remove the cancer before it can grow. Devestatingly powerful in small numbers.

[Wildeybeast]

I'd give shout out to my beloved Raven Guard. Not particularly powerful, but thanks to the likes of Shrike, beloved by the common man. More importantly, they are indispensable to the Imperial war effort. They offer the ability to prosecute war in way nothing else in the Imperium can. In terms of troops, equipment and influence, obviously nothing tops the smurfs.

[Crazy Jedi]

Wolfshade, those are some great points. Especially about the Gray Knights

I didn't include Space Wolves because, though they are above chapter strength, I don't really think they have much influence beyond the Chapter and Fenris.

In my mind I guess im thinking of how difficult it would be to stop one of these forces if they say, wanted to conquer a certain system, so i think I rated them like that.

[DarkLink]

Not being well known doesn't necessarily mean you aren't influential. The Inquisition pulls strings everywhere. But in this case, yes, the Ordos Malleus probably handles the politics, the Grey Knights the fighting. Generally.

That said, all but the most powerful space Marine chapters tend to submit to the will of the inquisition, and most still willingly cooperate. At least one major chapter, I forget which, have willingly turned themselves over for risky memory wipes after a campaign fighting chaos.

[Nabterayl]

I imagine it's quite difficult, as a Grey Knight, to exercise influence beyond that which comes from being self-evidently a space marine. The problem with being a super-secret chapter that nobody is allowed to know about is that 99% of the time when you invoke the name of the chapter, the response is, "Who? Oh, some space marine chapter I've never heard of, I guess."

You can wield the influence of the inquisition, assuming the inquisitor you're working with has given you some evidence of your commission. You can wield the influence of being a space marine, because even though nobody has ever heard of you you are clearly a space marine. If you are lucky to be talking to one of the tiny number of people who actually (i) knows who the Grey Knights are and (ii) believes you to be a genuine Grey Knight (since, remember, there are plenty of people who will say, "The Grey Knights? That's a good one! Everybody knows the Grey Knights aren't real!"), then you probably have quite a bit of influence. Otherwise, you have to borrow it.

[daboarder]

Blood angels and there successors. Loved by the common man and feared by the enemies of the imperium. Even marneus calgar acknowledges dantes superiority

[Brian Wesley]

Wolfshade...actually the DA have the most stable geneseed, it tithe always shows no signs of deviation. It is the questionable relationship they have with the Imperium and the Inquisition that prevents more successor chapters from being created. But I do agree the UM are without a doubt the most powerful.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Oddly enough, I am going to throw the Salamanders hat into the ring. They are still a Legion, Vulkan did not agree with Guilliman's sorting of the Chapters and demanded that his Legion remained untouched, and it has.
They have no known Successors (though some are hinted at) and no one knows how many they are.
They also have one of the most elite 1st Companies in existance, the Fire Drakes, who are ridiculously well-trained, and have the best equipment available.
Let us also not forget the Artifacts of Vulkan, one of which is a SPACE LASER.
Speaking of equipment, lots of master crafted items, the finest forged weapons known to the Imperium.
Influence, these guys have tonnes of it, due to their humanitarian ways, they are famous for saving lives, and the Imperium loves them for it.

[Katharon]

Any and all of the First Founding Chapters will be the most influential within the Imperium of Man -- especially the Ultramarines, due to the fact that they founded so many successor chapters and have one of the most pure gene-seeds. However, they did not fight on Terra during the Horus Heresy, which gives more kudos and credit to the likes of the Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Blood Angels.

Who has the most power? That is, as they say, all relative. The most powerful single Chapter would undoubtedly by the Black Templar -- if only because they are unorthodox in the light of the Codex Astartes and have as many as an estimated 6-7 thousand Space Marines within their ranks. Almost as powerful as the Legions of old.

Political/Inquisitional power? The Grey Knights. By their word can any chapter be condemned for whatever they perceive to be heresy or a corruption of the Emperor's word. The Imperial Fists and Ultramarines come in second, due to the fact that the Ultramarines have one of the most efficient and powerful demi-kingdoms in the Realm of Ultramar and the Imperial Fists are still considered the praetorians of Terra, and recruit from there at need (often becoming involved in politics).

That's my two cents...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The Ultramarines are the ancestors of two thirds of the Imperial Space Marines. Out of roughly one million extant Space Marines, six hundred and sixty thousand are direct descendants of the Ultramarines Legion and its heroes. All of those, to one extent or another, venerate the Codex Astartes as their guiding light. Even Chapters formed from other Legion stock do so, with some notable exceptions.

If you're talking about "influence", the Ultramarines can't be beat. Their close ties with a great many of those descendant chapters make them a terrifying proposition if they start calling in favours, too.

[Denzark]

Power - Ultramarines. For all the reasosn already given.

Influence a different matter.

I think Dante and the BA are at an interesting point. I think BA were seen as a double edged sword by Imperial allies, due to some of their more...dubious... practises. That said, Armageddon represents a changing of opionions whereby their reputation is backing towards heroic again.

Similarly, the Codex Fluff for Logan Grimnar makes him out to be one of the Imperium's most widely known heroes, even outside of Fenris. Again Armagedon and his actions afterwards make him popular to the common man - as opposed to a scary chapter that would turn up and be contemptuous of them.

I would say the fact that Grimnar is allowed to ignore Adeptus Terra dictates even to the stage of open combat against other imperial formations, based purely on what he thinks is morally right, shows how influential he is. After all this and the canis helix mutation would give sufficient cassus belli to call them traitoris. The fact that this isn't happen, and Fenris is a de facto closed system, leads me to call SW highly influential.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Minotaurs: If I'm correct, isn't it hinted that they basically work with the Inquisition.

Nope. It's flat out stated that they work directly for the High Lords of Terra.
When it comes to munitions and equipment they are second only to the Salamanders (although IHands, Bangels and a few others are hotly contesting that spot).
They re-grow their numbers with terrifying ease, due to a gene-seed quota direct from Terra herself and sanction practices hinted at in their FW fluff which suggest that they do so in slightly dodgy accelerated ways.
They're a fleet based chapter whose exact size and location are generally unknown, esp after badab where they looted traitor ships.
A lot of other chapters downright worry about (the closest a marine can get to fear) what would happen to them if they were on the sharp end of their wrath. So they have fear factor 11.
They PERSONALLY may not wield much political sway, but the guys they answer to run mankind.
All of that aside they're likely outnumbered at least 3 to one by the Black Templars. So if it ever came to 1 on 1 fisticuffs they'd top about every other chapter but them.
Once getting your successors involved comes into play the Ultras win hands down.
BUT with the High Lords backing them I'd say they're they most influential overall, if only by vestige of association.
Ultras are clearly the most so on their own. But Bangels and Swolves are very close behind.

However since the Minotaurs almost always with the express sanction of, or on the behest of, the High Lords. That means they bring with them the potential alliance of every "loyal" marine chapter and the entire imperial war machine. Which is frankly overpowering for even the Ultras (as I'm sure some of their successors would either turn on them or sit on the fence).
But none of them would like doing it.

I'm plugging for Minotaurs.

[daboarder]

Power - Ultramarines. For all the reasosn already given.

Influence a different matter.

I think Dante and the BA are at an interesting point. I think BA were seen as a double edged sword by Imperial allies, due to some of their more...dubious... practises. That said, Armageddon represents a changing of opionions whereby their reputation is backing towards heroic again.

Similarly, the Codex Fluff for Logan Grimnar makes him out to be one of the Imperium's most widely known heroes, even outside of Fenris. Again Armagedon and his actions afterwards make him popular to the common man - as opposed to a scary chapter that would turn up and be contemptuous of them.

I would say the fact that Grimnar is allowed to ignore Adeptus Terra dictates even to the stage of open combat against other imperial formations, based purely on what he thinks is morally right, shows how influential he is. After all this and the canis helix mutation would give sufficient cassus belli to call them traitoris. The fact that this isn't happen, and Fenris is a de facto closed system, leads me to call SW highly influential.

thing is most of the imperium doesn't know about the red thirst and the black rage, the BA's and their successors go to huge lengths (having squeeky clean geneseed for tithing) to prevent anyone form knowing that.

To be fair though there are "rumours" and "heresay"

as to the ultras, the thing is that to a lot of their successors loyalty to ultramar isn't really a thing, they took guillimans teachings to heart adn sepparated all ties, whereas chapters like the blood angels and dark angels have very strong ties to their successors due to their mutual secrets and teh like.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

This is a hard discussion to have without defining "power" and "influence".

[Katharon]

Everything's relative.

[dark messenger]

I'd have to throw my vote in for the Wolves of Fenris.
Due to the actions and reputations of the last two Great Wolves, Ulrik Grimfang and Logan Grimnar, and the fact that Russ very sneakily didn't quite divide his Legion... If full strength were gathered at one place, they'd be able to bootstomp almost anything.
In terms of both power and influence as a First Founding Chapter and just how bloody dangerous they are the Wolves would match just about anybody in the Imperium.

Many of the other First Founding Chapters can also claim illustrious histories and great power too, but isn't the whole point of Guilliman's Codex that no one body of authority in the Imperium ever be strong enough to overpower and take charge?

[Demonicsarge55]

Oddly enough, I am going to throw the Salamanders hat into the ring. They are still a Legion, Vulkan did not agree with Guilliman's sorting of the Chapters and demanded that his Legion remained untouched, and it has.
They have no known Successors (though some are hinted at) and no one knows how many they are.
They also have one of the most elite 1st Companies in existance, the Fire Drakes, who are ridiculously well-trained, and have the best equipment available.
Let us also not forget the Artifacts of Vulkan, one of which is a SPACE LASER.
Speaking of equipment, lots of master crafted items, the finest forged weapons known to the Imperium.
Influence, these guys have tonnes of it, due to their humanitarian ways, they are famous for saving lives, and the Imperium loves them for it.

They dont have any successors because of the drop site massacre left them absolutely shattered.

[Dalleron]

If you are a humble human in the vastness of the Imperium, the most influential/powerful SM chapter would have to be the one that is in your sector at any given moment. Only when there are multiple chapters in system does it become a "weiner measuring contest". Then who's the boss probably comes from some
convoluted system set about in the Codex Astartes.

I imagine that the first founding loyalists would have more pull outside of their territories, by virtue of their chapter.

[DrLove42]

The most influential chapter of them all?

Well if you define influence as having the biggest effect on the others and the universe around them....

The Word Bearers. Ok technically a legion but shush.

The Word Bearers were first to fall, caused the fall of others and began the Heresy in the beginning. Without them the entire universe would likely have been a significantly different place

[Lord Anubis]

This is a hard discussion to have without defining "power" and "influence".

The Alpha Legion has tons of power and influence in the gothic sector and Segmentums Solar and Ultima... just saying. :)

[Spamthulhu]

As far as which chapter could overthrow the universe. It would have to be Ultramarines due to their numerous successors and their possible agreement with whatever reason the Ultramarines offered.

As far as Chapter influence. None really hold sway with the Imperium in any way except the refounded Minotaurs if I understand their fluff correctly. The Imperium has founded a few chapters to be loyal to their efforts. The Gray Knights still fight for their own goals not those of the Imperium.

No Single Chapter could dominate a system without the Imperial Guards support. They would eventually fall to the might of the imperium. THat was why they were controlled and kept from being Legions was to avoid any possibility of that happening. The Templars may have a shot if they took all of their strength and put it at one location but even then they would fall eventually.

It would take most of the Adeptus Astartes turning on the Imperium together to gain any real foothold. Maybe like 5-6 chapters pooling their resources could put up a stalemate situation where the Imperium doesn't wish to lose the resources it would take to dislodge them.

[sfshilo]

Yeah going to have to say Space Wolves as much as I don't like them...

Armageddon? They fought the Gray Knights to a draw. They've repelled multiple attacks from their homeworld from massive invasions, with under strength garrisons. They have a dread that fought with Leman Russ and the Emperor. They will absolutely smite anyone morally corrupt, and defend those that need defending no matter the cost.

The Ultramarines have been beaten up I don't know how many times at full strength. Their successors are not that great to begin with, and in the fluff are usually corrupt, inept, or destroyed completely by their enemies because of stupidity. Also, they allied with the Tau, how messed up is that? They live no where near the eye of terror either.

You throw down with Cadians and Space Wolves in the fluff setting and things get DONE. Enemies bleed, victory is had, or they take out a good portion of the enemy before going down.

TLDR Fenris all the way based on history alone

[Phototoxin]

I love salamanders - die hard B@st*rds, blood angels - savours from on high. But in terms of actual power I think the minotaurs - well equipped, lots of numbers, high lord of terra backing...

[stevetheduck]

if we're talking about Fluff, then you have to look at the Imperial Fists, First Dorn created the Imperial palace then he and the Fists defended Terra during the Horus Heresy, and then when the 2nd founding came they formed both the Crimson fists; which are noted as the best Xeno fighters in all the chapters, have been called upon 3 times to destroy traitor chapters by the high lords of Terra, got their homeworld bombed out by Orks and have come back from the brink of destruction; they also created the Black Templar's, who i don't even need to tell you about. but the Celestial Lions is another succession chapter that has some awesome fluff that should be noted. they stood up to the inquisition and were almost completely destroyed for it on Armageddon, but they survived and are rebuilding, that's 2 chapters that are defying the odds, 1 that is going out and bringing the Emperor's name to it's enemies and the parent chapter that sparked it all defending Terra and all the other important key Imperial worlds, forge worlds and sectors. that's a lot to say about 1 Patriarch's Gene-seed.

[Luckee22]

If we consider how pivotal the loyalty of the Cult Mechanicus was for the Horus Heresy, then any chapter with a strong connection to Mars is going to be a big contender. In this vein, I think the Iron Hands are a definite contender. The benefit from a technological superiority similar to the Salamanders. And have a ready made web of forge worlds which supply and support them.

But they also have a wide array of successor chapters to pull from. Having a bunch of successors means that they remain in good standing with the Imperial bureaucracy while still having a loyalty attachment to to a larger body of marines who each have their own web of allies and assets. This is a failing of many of the larger chapters (Space Wolves, Black Templar, etc.). Having the love of the people is dandy and helpful for extended occupations but less relevant for a shock and awe military force that isn't going to wage wars of attrition and occupation. Having the backing of the upper levels of the Imperium is where the real power is. Not to mention that the Imperium has 10,000 years of experience in brutal and oppressive occupation of Human worlds.

The greatest strength of the Iron Hands lies in their forward thinking. They are an organisation that embraces the idea of progress. Their bionic fixation means that they don't buy into the humanity first mentality of the Imperium. They are deliberately improving themselves (beyond even the advances of their own genetic make-up) to a level that exceeds their own Space Marine brothers.

So they have the tri-fector that the Horus Heresy was looking for. The loyalty of the Mechanicum, the support of key Imperium officials, and a personal physical edge not possessed by the other chapters.

[SuperDann]

Many of the other First Founding Chapters can also claim illustrious histories and great power too, but isn't the whole point of Guilliman's Codex that no one body of authority in the Imperium ever be strong enough to overpower and take charge?

Exactly. I thought the whole point of breaking legions down into chapters was to stop individuals wielding the might of so many marines. Guilliman would be turning in his stasis field if Calgar started calling on all the succesors for the Ultramarines own ends. A chapter is supposed to head the chapter master and the Emperor and none else.

Also, 2nd fouding chapters will obviously be much closer to the first founding chapter than any from the 3rd onwards. Thdy may revere the Codex Astartes, but that doesn't mean they revere (read- adhere to) the Ultramarines themselves. Food for thought.

[sps62487]

I think blood angels have a very good mix. sanguinius was loved by all. they even have a day to hinor him and have statues as well. he was downright loyal to the emperor. the only one to not fight or resist on meeting his father. he was pretty strong and a very good fighter. defense of terra anyone? khorne had a bad time.

dante hss major military influence. also believed that dante will be incharge of the final battle to defend humanity.
the bloodangels whipped a huge orc army off thier home planet with just dreadnoughts
they are honorable but the flaw makes thwm a much feared enemy.

they are very quick rapid insertion. wolfs are the counter attack force.

[nathaneal246]

If we consider how pivotal the loyalty of the Cult Mechanicus was for the Horus Heresy, then any chapter with a strong connection to Mars is going to be a big contender. In this vein, I think the Iron Hands are a definite contender. The benefit from a technological superiority similar to the Salamanders. And have a ready made web of forge worlds which supply and support them.

But they also have a wide array of successor chapters to pull from. Having a bunch of successors means that they remain in good standing with the Imperial bureaucracy while still having a loyalty attachment to to a larger body of marines who each have their own web of allies and assets. This is a failing of many of the larger chapters (Space Wolves, Black Templar, etc.). Having the love of the people is dandy and helpful for extended occupations but less relevant for a shock and awe military force that isn't going to wage wars of attrition and occupation. Having the backing of the upper levels of the Imperium is where the real power is. Not to mention that the Imperium has 10,000 years of experience in brutal and oppressive occupation of Human worlds.

The greatest strength of the Iron Hands lies in their forward thinking. They are an organisation that embraces the idea of progress. Their bionic fixation means that they don't buy into the humanity first mentality of the Imperium. They are deliberately improving themselves (beyond even the advances of their own genetic make-up) to a level that exceeds their own Space Marine brothers.

So they have the tri-fector that the Horus Heresy was looking for. The loyalty of the Mechanicum, the support of key Imperium officials, and a personal physical edge not possessed by the other chapters.

The loyalty of the Mechanicum! I'm pretty sure their loyalty to the Imperium was as much in question as the legions. There is a book on the whole civil war on mars, and in the other books of titan legions and Mechanicum planets siding with Horus. Plus throughout the books of the BL there are countless references to the mistrust of the Mechanicum by all other arms of the Imperium.

Plus I don't think the Salamanders or the Iron Hands have many founding chapters due to Istvaan.

[gcsmith]

Exactly. I thought the whole point of breaking legions down into chapters was to stop individuals wielding the might of so many marines. Guilliman would be turning in his stasis field if Calgar started calling on all the succesors for the Ultramarines own ends. A chapter is supposed to head the chapter master and the Emperor and none else.

Also, 2nd fouding chapters will obviously be much closer to the first founding chapter than any from the 3rd onwards. Thdy may revere the Codex Astartes, but that doesn't mean they revere (read- adhere to) the Ultramarines themselves. Food for thought.

Actually, if you consider how many of the Emperor's direct commands that Guilliman overturned (no librarians on the front lines being one) and the fact he was stabbed by the same sword that corrupted Horus. Then it looks a lot more like Guilliman securing his own power in the vaccum created by the Emperor being in the stasis field than it was on protecting on the imperium.

[Nabterayl]

I disagree. I mean, I don't think the Codex was meant to carry out some sort of master plan of the Emperor's, but I do think that Guilliman meant to geld space marines as forces of conquests. And I think he did so very successfully. He took a force of infantrymen and turned them into commandos - still useful, but hardly going to conquer anything worth conquering. I mean, for goodness' sake, the entire Armory of most chapters has fewer vehicles total than some leg infantry regiments, and most space marines still believe that devoting four space marines to move two Rhinos' worth of marines around the operational area is totally a good use of the chapter's fighting manpower.

[daboarder]

I have a fealing we're going to get a much deeper look into guilimans motivation in the next phase of the heresy books, what with this imperium secondus and all that.

[Deadlift]

I have a fealing we're going to get a much deeper look into guilimans motivation in the next phase of the heresy books, what with this imperium secondus and all that.

You mean that BL might even progress the story ? No your kidding right :D

[daboarder]

when you put it that way...yeah never gonna happen. who wants to place bets on the heresy being set up as another "setting"?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

We're already getting a lot of insight into Guilliman's mindset. Unremembered Empire is sure to be a belter.

But yes, the point is that the Great Crusade was over, the Age of Man ascendant was ended, and what was necessary was to build something that endured. Nobody could be trusted with the amount of power a Primarch wielded anymore - remember that RG is all about the fact that all they do is for Humanity, not for the Astartes. The Astartes are a means to build a better universe for Humanity, who need to be equipped to govern themselves. The Legions are split into small, rapid-reaction forces who can be deployed to firefight in crises.

I don't think he has an "ulterior motive". Remember that this is the most powerful guy in the Imperium after the Heresy, and unlike a good number of other figures would've, he gave it away.

(Of course he's remade the Imperium to his liking by this point, but the point is that he hasn't done it for personal aggrandisement, but because he thinks it's what needs to be done with the resources the Imperium has, to make it last - which it has, to be fair).

On the Heresy and the storyline: They're moving it forwards, and they're clearly doing so. ADB's gone on record in the past as saying that he's one of the people who thinks they should get to the Siege of Terra sooner rather than later, and recently this viewpoint seems to be the one which has one out. Earlier HH books rambled and digressed a lot more; right now we have some real Forward Motion.

[Dexecuter79]

Howdy folks, as I often do while reading 40k fluff stuff, I began to ponder which Space Marine Chapter is the most powerful.

I mean this as in using all their assets, and allies, whether they be successor chapters, their own numbers, or other allied Imperial forces.

So as a rough breakdown, my top five would have to be:
Ultramarines: Their own mini Imperium, and they retain close relations with many of their successor chapters.
Blood Angels: Those crazy abilities they have, and close ties with many of their successor chapters (i do believe that's the case with them, but its been a while since ive read that fluff)
Black Templars: 3-10,000 rock hard, mad as hell zealots. I'll take that.
Minotaurs: If I'm correct, isn't it hinted that they basically work with the Inquisition.
Dark Angels: Hints that they are secretly using their successors to legion build, and doing it pretty blatantly? My favorite chapter has to have the best lawyers.

This list is simply what I could think of, and it's quite early out here, so what are your thoughts on this topic?

While UM(and by all accounts NOT a true first founding) may have the numbers and the successor chapters to qualify as "Powerful". BT did said screw the rules, we do what we want. BA, is too unpredictable in combat and Minotaurs are simply a hand of the high lords of terra.

DA stands to be the most powerful. Reasons:

1. They have no home planet, They have a remaining piece of flying rock from the plant that has engines on it. (read lots of firepower)

2. They have the least tainted geneseed. ( need I say more? ok I will)

3. They have the last remaining jet bike in the imperium. (ok, there may be more that they keep in reserve JUST for Sammael).

4. The Primarch was not found until 14 years after his capsule landed and growing up in a hostile world, and the best tactician.

5. As Lion El raced to save the emperor, Chaos and the warp tried to destroy them in warpspace because even Chaos knew that they needed to be stopped before he got there. But they survived against the odds. (But not the emperor)

6. They carry relics that cause sheer panic in the enemy (PR)

7. Multitasking: No matter what you wear or what you ride, You also have to be a troop. (except DK, BK and CS)

8. Plasma...and Interrogator Chaplin

9. They know their task, and do not stick around if it is completed to take unnecessary casualties

[BrianDavion]

the book "battle for the fang" has an excellent quote in it to give weight to the ultramarines.

[biffster666]

Guilliman already gave us the answer to both questions in the HH novels

Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and get ready for it...Iron Hands. He was freaking bummed that Ferrus Manus went and got himself ganked...He says himself that you give him any of those Legions with the Ultramarines and he'll take down anyone.

Before someone pulls the Grey Knights weren't around back then...The Grey Knights are too small a force and the Wolves alone already proved they can go toe to toe with them and then some.

Through power comes influence.

hhhhaaaaassssssaaaaannnnn CHOP! Can I get a 'What what'? :D

[Katharon]

With influence comes power. How else would you explain the Inquisition -- who has both -- than that?

[biffster666]

They're synonyms Katharon...I was being witty, well, trying to be witty. Carry on though :D

The Wolves have taken on more than one part of the Inquisition as well...in fact they took on the Ecclesiarchy (Adeptus Ministorum) and their wannabe Space Marines the Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) also...because those organizations are garbage and the Wolves know this. Those wannabe Grey Knights aren't even worth mentioning, they're not even the kewlest IF successor chapter.

The Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Iron Hands.

[Katharon]

I would disagree that they are entirely synonymous -- but one usually does lead to the other.

[biffster666]

Then you should take that up with an English prof/teacher dude.

Power: the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events.
"the idea that men should have power over women"
•political or social authority or control, esp. that exercised by a government.
"the party had been in power for eight years"
synonyms: control, authority,influence, dominance, mastery, domination, dominion, sway, weight, leverage

influence •the power to shape policy or ensure favorable treatment from someone, esp. through status, contacts, or wealth.
"the institute has considerable influence with teachers"
synonyms: power, authority, sway, leverage, weight, pull, standing, prestige, stature, rank

I was just trying to be witty. The Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, and Iron Hands would like a word with you on the subject however :D

[Katharon]

You went from trying to be witty to being a prat. I'm was not talking about their definitions, but their application in the real world or as displayed by example in the Black Library books. They are not mutually inclusive at all times.


http://youtu.be/ifaRhL95HUM

[BrianDavion]

maybe but raw power and raw influance can be EXTREMELY differant things. I'm gonna focus on the Space Wolves here, to argue how influance and power can be radicly differnt.

The Space Wolves are certinly one of the more powerful in terms of raw might, space marine Chapters. assuming they're simply equally skilled and equally well lead as the other "big name chapters" they've got the numbers advantage. HOWEVER, as others have noted, the Space Wolves have clashed with the Ecclessiarchy, the Inqusition etc. clashes with these big orginizations with major pull in the Imperium certinly happen but it DOES reduce their influance.

Basicly the most influential and powerful Chapter is the one that can feild the most forces, as well as politically bring more of the Imperium behind it.
I'd say this knocks Chapters whom have a antagionistic relationship with sizeable factions within the Imperium out of the running.
I'd also argue it knocks the Minotaurs out of the running. they're followers, not leaders.

I'd say the chapters with influance claims are as follows:

1: Ultramarines: The Ultramarines Primarch literally wrote the book on being a space marine, and reorginized the Imperium following the Heresy this has essentially cast the Imperium, in part at least, in Gulliman's image. The Ultramarines today in addition to the useal finest warrior stuff every major space marine chapter with any decent amount of ink is given, are notable for ruling the Realm of ultramar, a fairly sizeable realm. I've not been able to detirmine anything specificly about the ultramarines relations with any of the Imperium factions, but Ultramar includes a shrine world, a adeptus mechainus research station, and a deathwatch training world. given we haven't heard of conflicts with these factions we can assume neutral to cordinal relations with the ecclesiarchy, Mechanium, and Ordo Xenos at the least. Between Ultramar, and their being tied to 2/3rds of space marine chapters in existance, the military and political favors the Ultramarines could undoubtedly call in are proably pretty formidable.

2: The Imperial Fists. Dorn may not have essentially refounded the Imperim, but the Imperial fists where the Emperor's Pretorians and even to this day recruit from Terra (a distinction among SM chapters I suspect is Unique) which certinly means reasonably cordinal relations with the high lords.
While they may not have the most sucessor chapters, the Imperial fists have some of the most respected sucessor chapters. I mean look at the special characters in the codex right now the ONLY special characters from sucessor chapters are from IF sucessors.

[biffster666]

They are synonyms Katharon (you know what that is, right?) which is why I bolded synonyms for you. That being said, you should take your own advice from a previous thread about 'being wrong', but that's just my opinion. I apologize to the folks earlier in the thread that it was momentarily derailed. I'm sure Katharon won't let it go, but I'm done having an off-topic conversation with him in this thread.

Thank you BrianDavion for bringing the topic of the thread back into focus!

I think everyone would agree about the Ultramarines, 3/5's of the current chapters are directly connected to them and the majority of second founding on down the line codex chapters lick their boots IMO.

I agree that the Wolves have butted heads with some extremely powerful organizations within the imperium (I pointed most of it out after all, heh heh), but that they've basically been able to give the proverbial middle finger to not only Guilliman when he busted out the Codex, but also to all those extremely powerful organizations for over 10,000 years speaks volumes about the amount of power they wield. How many Chapters have fallen to the way side or been outright nuked by those same organizations for far less slights than say going to war with the Inquisition or Ecclesiarchy?

I would have put the Imperial Fists (#5 on my list) ahead of the Iron Hands if not for Guillimans statements regarding the Wolves, Blood Angels, and Iron Hands. That and Dorn was too stoic/boring/long winded...even Malcador comments on it. I always had The Smurfs, Wolves, and Blood Angels as the top three. If Sanguinius wasn't among the confirmed deceased Primarchs I'd probably have them at #2. Horus wanted the BA's minus Sanguinius to fall to Chaos for a VERY good reason. 'Man, I gotta kill this guy before everyone figures out what I already know...he's WAY kewler than me' :D. He had the uncanny ability to be able to relate to anyone which none of the other Primarchs could lay claim to IMO. Some of the others were 'popular', Sanguinius was truely 'loved' IMO. Gracious to a fault IMO.

[BrianDavion]

I tend not to put too much weight on Guilliman's thoughts on that matter as this is essentially pre-heresy, some legions came out of the heresy strong, others, including the iron hands, came out IMHO broken.

[Katharon]

It's actually on topic, seeing as we're discussing power and influence of the various Space Marine chapters and organizations. And, as I said, power and influence are *not* synonymous, nor mutually inclusive. I went ahead and put that "not" in bold for you in case you missed it. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know a damned thing about either politics or realpolitik.

As it stands, we have to contend with the fact that the Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and White Scars (any of the first founding chapters that were formerly Legions, really) will have the most influence -- largely based upon where they choose to try and express that influence. A Ultramarine will rightfully be more likely listened to within Ultramar than a Blood Angel, but on Holy Terra the word or opinion of an Imperial Fist will carry more weight than a Space Wolf. Not only personal influence of a chapter matters, but where they choose to act upon that influence.

As for raw power, I would again interject that the Black Templar Chapter carries that by a wide margin; with dozens of crusade fleets and minor missions scattered around the IoM -- and counting as many as 5,000-6,000 battle brothers within their various ranks should they come together as one (which has not happened in a long, long time). There have been recent efforts to retcon the strength of the Black Templar with their inclusion into the SM codex and no longer having their own, but to this I will ignore until it is spelled out into plain text that they are not larger than your standard codex-chapter.

[biffster666]

Anyone who went along with the Codex is broken IMO...they're chapters now while the Wolves are still a Legion IMO. Everyone with the exception of the Wolves rolled over in the end in one way or another, even the DA and BA to a point. The only Primarch that we can assume is still alive somewhere is Vulken. Every other Primarch is either confirmed dead (including Dorn), are 'kicking butt somewhere', or are a Daemon Prince (and they are just the ones who had the biggest 'daddy' issues). Second Founding Chapters on down the line shouldn't come before any of the loyal (which brings the DA into question IMO) Legions, but in the end it's just my opinion.

Excellent points though BrianDavion.

We'll have to revisit this thread in a year or so once all the Chapters and Wolves have their 6th edition rules. Right now the Iron Hands look mighty tasty IMO :D

[eldargal]

That's really not a supported view, the Space Wolves were separated into two chapters with the new chapter being disbanded at some point after that. Indeed the 2nd edition Codex: Space Wolves says one of the few Codex matters the SW adopted was the breakdown into chapters, but their chapter was always smaller and combined with geneseed instability and one assumes the casualties from the Prospero campaign and HH in general left them with quite low numbers compared to others. Splitting into only two chapters doesn't necessarily mean the original Space Wolves chapter approached the numbers of a legion. Also they are explicitly referred to as a chapter by themselves and others through the entirely of post-HH 40k lore. :)

[bladeofdeath3]

After the Horus Heresy, the Ultramarines are undoubtedly not only the most powerful, but most influential Legion/Chapter in the Imperium. Not only are they the largest fighting force (~250k marines), Guilliman's reforms practically make him the Reagent of the Imperium. While the Space Wolves may not have divided as much as the rest of the First Founding Legions, they were never really numerous in the first place. The instability caused by the Canis Helix increased the risk of aspirants failing, either by succumbing to the Canis Helix or by not surviving the implantation procedures. Also, having read A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, it is implied that the Space Wolves suffered moderate casualties (in the thousands) during the Burning of Prospero. Also, while the Space Wolves are a First Founding Chapter, they are constantly at odds with many organizations in the Imperium (the Administratium, the Inquisition, other Chapters), which can be seen as a reduction of influence. Their only successor chapter, the Wolf Brothers, had to be destroyed by the Inquisition due to genetic deviance. Those who weren't terminated by the Inquisition went renegade and mostly joined Chaos Raiders. As a result of the genetic instability, the Ad Mech only collect the gene tithes to check for corruption. They don't use the Space Wolves gene seed to create new chapters anymore. Russ wanted an empire similar to Ultramar in which Space Wolves successor chapters would surround the Eye of Terror and ensure that their traitor bretheren never left. This is a prime example of Guilliman influencing Russ' thinking. However, we're no longer in the times of the Horus Heresy. While the Space Wolves and Black Templars may have numerical superiority, the Ultramarines can easily call on their successor chapters to fight by their side. Also, a good 3/5 of the current chapters are thought to have descended from the Ultramarines. Plus, they have the alleged strongest psyker in the Imperium :p

Don't get me wrong though. I think the Space Wolves are a very powerful Chapter. They managed to defy the Codex (more or less) and more impressively spit in the face of the Inquisition after Armageddon and survive. Not many chapters would be able to do both and survive. While their fighting and military strength may be strong, their influence could be seen as shoddy at best. They have no successor chapters, the Administratium doesn't like them, the Inquisition probably is looking for any excuse to destroy them, and many chapters distrust them and some outright dislike them. They kinda do their own thing, which is fine for them considering they are very isolationist.

Here's my top 3 list: Ultramarines, Grey Knights, and Black Templars

[biffster666]

That's really not a supported view, the Space Wolves were separated into two chapters with the new chapter being disbanded at some point after that. Indeed the 2nd edition Codex: Space Wolves says one of the few Codex matters the SW adopted was the breakdown into chapters, but their chapter was always smaller and combined with geneseed instability and one assumes the casualties from the Prospero campaign and HH in general left them with quite low numbers compared to others. Splitting into only two chapters doesn't necessarily mean the original Space Wolves chapter approached the numbers of a legion. Also they are explicitly referred to as a chapter by themselves and others through the entirely of post-HH 40k lore.

That's not really a supported view in your opinion. The boys back on terra 'experimented' and got the abomination know as the Wolf Brothers who were subsequently wiped out, not disbanded. Under Deviating from the Codex in the 6th edition SM codex states "A small number of Chapters are utterly different from the codex, and owe nothing to it at all. The most famous of these is the Space Wolves. The sons of Russ have never followed the Codex Astartes". As I'm sure you're aware, GW has modified their own canon several times so I would suggest using the most current version if you're going to make a reference to codices. The Vlka Fenryka always having smaller numbers during the HH and having "quite low numbers compared to others" after the HH sounds like a 100% opinion, do you have any actual numbers to back that up? "Splitting into two chapters (which they didn't do) doesn't mean the original chapter (Legion) approached the numbers of a legion". They were a Legion (and still are IMO compared to SM chapters), because you're not actually claiming that the Emperor's executioners were always a chapter are you? 40k Lore as you put it has been quite fluid over the years, so it gets tricky. They aren't even The Space Wolves, they are the Vlka Fenryka (and even that's new). The only # I can think of at the moment regarding current Great Company size was refrencing Ragnars as the second largest at 180 or around 180. I can't think of any other current #'s that have been provided regarding their actual size. I've built The Great Wolf's Great Company which currently sits at roughly 230 warriors (not including wolves), but I don't know the actual #, it could be even more/less than that. Just pulling a number out of the air, say 160 warriors average between the twelve Great Companies (13 actually, but that's more fuzzy canon right now) would put the Vlka Fenryka at almost double the size of any current chapter. They are the only remaining Legion IMO even if they are tiny when compared with HH Legion numbers. They would dominate any other single chapter if it came to blows, IMO.

You make and reference some great points deathofblades3. From the standpoint of calling in their boot lickers, the Ultramarines would dominate. It's for that very reason I still put them as the undisputed #1. You make an even better point for me regarding the empire the Wolves were going to build around the Eye of Terror which was a driving force behind The Battle for The Fang. They didn't want to build an empire like Guilliman's though, they were going to build the ultimate choke point around the Eye of Terror to dominate the Chaos Legions, not for the purpose of empire building. Magnus knew this and had a "Uh, I think I just dropped a load in my pants." moment and threw everything he had at the Wolves to make sure that didn't happen. Just another point in the Wolves favor IMO regarding who the true bada$$es were/are. How you can put the IF boot lickers at #3 boggles me though, like the Minotaurs they're followers, not leaders. 100% lap dogs IMO. The GK would be in my top 10 for sure. They're tiny though and would 'need' support if they were going to go head to head with most if not all the First Founding Legions (now mostly chapters) IMO. Good stuff though dude.

[Nabterayl]

In terms of being a legion, I don't think the Space Wolves qualify. Ragnar Blackmane's Great Company is explicitly listed in the current codex as the largest, and its numbers are in the low 200s. That means the Space Wolves top out at around 2,000 battle brothers - many more than most chapters, but still a glorified commando force. You aren't conquering anything with 2,000 space marines, and we have no reason to think that the Fenris PDF or the Space Wolves' combat-capable serfs have any particular ability to project power.

The truth is that in terms of conquering combat power, even the five or six thousand battle brothers the Black Templars maintain aren't going to make much of a dent in anything. In a cage match, as the defenders, or as a relief force, I'd put even a minor Imperial Guard task force like the Taros invasion force - somewhere north of a hundred thousand combat troops, plus Departmento Munitorum support - against the entire Black Templar chapter's ground forces any day, let alone the entirety of a regular-sized chapter. The fact that the Ultramarines have "several hundred" Guard-quality regiments on hand in the form of the Ultramar Auxilia is the real reason they top my power list. Unlike any other chapter I'm aware of, the Ultramarines actually have an army.

But in terms of influence, I think the Space Wolves do deserve a special mention. When most space marine chapters show up, nobody knows who the hell they are. You show up in a warzone and say, "I'm Chapter Master Whatshisname of the Rainbow Warriors," and the response you're going to get is, "Hey, some space marine just showed up." But regular people actually know who Logan Grimnar is, and they have at least a vague idea of what he's done.

[bladeofdeath3]

I forgot about the Minotaurs more or less being the hand of the High Lords of Terra. I put the GK at #2 due to the fact that they can pretty much do anything and get away with it. While they are chapter sized, there are a lot of benefits to their organization. Militarily, every member has psychic potential, which indisputably multiplies their effective force. The sheer density of psykers makes them a potent fighting force. Also, they have arguably the best equipment available to the astartes. Their standard power armor and weapons are probably better than what's available to standard marines. They are probably the only chapter which can field an entire chapter in Terminator armor. Most, if any can rarely field an entire company in Terminator armor. Finally, with their gene seed being crafted from the Emperor's DNA, it could be argued that their gene seed is the strongest and purest. Undoubtedly, the Emperor was mightier than any primarch, in strength or mind. As for influence, just about any imperial organization will aid them, minus a few (Space Wolves lol).

Another organization/chapter I forgot are the Custodes. I don't know if they are considered a "chapter" per say, but if they were, they would arguably be the most influential, even more than the Ultramarines I would think.

[BrianDavion]

problem with both the Grey Knights and the Minotaurs is they themselves Have almost no influance. they are rather, dependant on someone else's influance when something gets done for the Grey Knights, it's rather a case of something being done for the inqustion.

in short these chapters have little real power in and of themselves. they simply are the hands of people whom do have power

[Nabterayl]

I'm inclined to agree with that view [EDIT: well, I'm inclined to agree with the view that the Minotaurs and Grey Knights borrow their influence. Their power, if by power we mean combat power, is their own]. Especially as the Grey Knights are concerned - though the Inquisition may view them as equal to the three major ordos (which is quite the compliment), nobody knows they exist.*


"I am Brother-Captain Stern of the Grey Knights. Lord General, I require that you -"

"Sorry, what chapter was that?"

"The Grey Knights."

"Never heard of 'em."

"We're a super secret chapter of space marines. We sit on the highest councils of the Inquisition. We hunt that which cannot be hunted, confronting the daemon not just in body but in soul!"

"Sure you do, pal. Look, you're clearly a space marine, so you get as much accommodation as the last space marine who 'required' me to do something."

"I am not just a space marine! We sit on the highest councils of the Inquisition!"

"Which I'm ... just supposed to take your word for? Look, I had my adepts check; you aren't in any of our datastacks. <peers suspiciously> Comes to that, how do I know you aren't one of those Chaos space marines?"

"I - we - we hunt daemons! We are incorruptible!"

"Right. Which, again, I'm just supposed to take your word for."

"Oh, fine. Throne dammit ... <produces rosette> Look, this is from Inquisitor Thaddeus Korteau, of the Ordo Malleus. His information led my brothers and I here to -"

"Ohhhh, you have proof you work for Inquisitor Korteau! Why didn't you say so?"

"We do not work for the inquisitor! We sit on the highest councils of the -"

"Yeah, yeah. Look, what does the Inquisitor want us to do?"

<incoherent frothing>

* Well, almost nobody.

[DarkLink]

You went from trying to be witty to being a prat. I'm was not talking about their definitions, but their application in the real world or as displayed by example in the Black Library books. They are not mutually inclusive at all times.


http://youtu.be/ifaRhL95HUM

Very much like this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/rk5aNHxaOJTn5nGrmoz.gif
In case
you don't read Order of the Stick, it's extremely good, and the big bad, Xykon, is every bit as charismatically intimidating as Heath Ledger's Joker.

[eldargal]

That's not really a supported view in your opinion. .

No, it's not a view supported by the literature. They are referred to as a chapter, they call themselves a chapter, their numbers and equipment and organisation are more akin to a chapter and a former codex states the oneelement of the Codex Astartes they adopted was the chapter structure. The fact they are a non-standard chapter doesn't make them a Legion, that is completely insupportable.

[biffster666]

Nabterayl, that was pretty damn funny and the incoherent frothing was an awesome touch. I could have sworn that Ragnar's Great Company is the second largest, but I don't have my SW Codex with me so I'll have to check that out tomorrow when I'm back home. You stumbled with the commando force though, the first paragraph under Chapter Standards in the new SM codex (yes, I'm totally geeking out with my new iPad) states "As written in the revered Codex Astartes, the organization of a Space Marine Chapter comprises a thousand battle-brothers under arms - a seemingly small number, yet a gathering of might enough to conquer star systems and alter the fate of the galaxy itself." That's definitely not a commando force and the Wolves have double the numbers of any chapter.

Context is everything, I don't even have to watch the video, I'm quite familiar with the scene. Little Finger is 100% correct that knowledge is power, he's just an idiot (uncommon for him) for threatening the stupid @#^%& when she's got four house guards with her...duh. Her own father tells her later that she thinks she's smarter than she actually is (rather ironic). All Little Finger needs to do is use that nugget of "you're ssssoooo #^%@(*" info the correct way rather than straight up threatening her with it and it would be heads, spikes, walls for her and Jamie. Now Lord Varus...but I digress. You were saying something about the Joker being charismatically intimidating Dark? :D


No, it's not a view supported by the literature. They are referred to as a chapter, they call themselves a chapter, their numbers and equipment and organisation are more akin to a chapter and a former codex states the oneelement of the Codex Astartes they adopted was the chapter structure. The fact they are a non-standard chapter doesn't make them a Legion, that is completely insupportable.

I will bow to your superiour knowledge..they're a 'Chapter'. I mean you could have just pointed out...
A small number of Chapters The way you put it is so much more convincing though. I'll refer to them as a Legion, but only if it's ok with you? Perception is reality after all, amirite? :D

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Power and influence aren't synonyms and the Space Wolves aren't a Legion. The Legions don't exist anymore. Next!

[Psychosplodge]

Are we all forgetting how many references throughout the fiction there are to a being able to conquer an entire system with a squad of Space Marines?
Or how its stated the appearance of a strike cruiser will often quell rebellion?

[Katharon]

Power and influence aren't synonyms and the Space Wolves aren't a Legion. The Legions don't exist anymore. Next!

This.

&...


Are we all forgetting how many references throughout the fiction there are to a being able to conquer an entire system with a squad of Space Marines?
Or how its stated the appearance of a strike cruiser will often quell rebellion?

This.


I think Dan Abnett's "Brothers of the Snake" showed this in quite exemplary fashion. A single Space Marine was deployed to respond to a Dark Eldar raid. In the recent game "Space Marine" for PC and console, you had a single Squad plus a demi-command squad responding to an Ork invasion and a Chaos incursion (which admittedly wasn't known at the time of the Ork invasion). You have other missions such as in "Salvation's Reach" where three Space Marines -- each from different chapters -- are deployed for massive effect as the spearhead of a vital mission. Reclusiarch Grimaldus had a hundred Black Templar to defend an entire hive city with, and was only reinforced by a single company of Salamanders at a pivotal moment of the latter stages -- and didn't remain behind to help for long.

The list goes on.

A single Space Marine is an almost unquantifiable force multiplier for combat.

[eldargal]

That's a fancy way of saying Mary Sue.:p Seriously most of that OTT Marine fiction is horrendous.

[Psychosplodge]

Just because space elves fall over as soon as anyone connects with the bloody squirmy things... :p

[Kaptain Badrukk]

That's a fancy way of saying Mary Sue.:p Seriously most of that OTT Marine fiction is horrendous.
I really loved "Brothers of the Snake" because the marines in it are nicely depicted. Yes 1 marine CAN deal with the irradiated crew of a crashed DE ship, and a squad can kill a buttload of panicking Kabalites or Ambush a feth-ton of Orks. BUT and this is the bit I liked, when they hit something they couldn't handle they were totally lost.
There was this moment where they were basically "Hang on, we're not winning, WTF?"
And when they come up against a well prepared enemy they're in worse shape too.
They also lack the Mary Sue when it comes to social interaction, in a big way, even with each other.
That said I always enjoyed SM as OTT entities, because that's what they are, you only need to look at the scaling ability difference in something like Inquisitor or the FF RPGs and then you see what a REAL marine is capable of, rather than the watered down ones you get in tabletop.

[daboarder]

Well I can buy things like strike cruisers and small detachments quelling entire uprisings....but thats because marines favour fairly high profile decapitation strikes. Blood spire is a good example where a group of BA assault marines telegraph their destruction of the upper reaches of a hive to the other hives on a planet in order to terrify them into subjugation. When you've seen a squad of marines strike out of nowhere before proceeding to messily butcher your boss....well I imagine it changes your priorities.

[eldargal]

I haven't read that particular one, I was thinking more of the Salamanders story where a single squad killed I think it was three thousand Dark Eldar. With bolters. Because apparently every Space Marine carries 300 bolt shells and never, ever misses.:rolleyes:

If it was a few dozen poorly prepared and injured/sick crew than that makes more sense, that's not really a raid though. More like the Dark Eldar equivalent of a mugging.:p

[Psychosplodge]

I haven't read that particular one, I was thinking more of the Salamanders story where a single squad killed I think it was three thousand Dark Eldar. With bolters. Because apparently every Space Marine carries 300 bolt shells and never, ever misses.:rolleyes:


Seems reasonable.

[daboarder]

yeah that is the stuff that irritates me, though I am also developing a serious irritation at the stupid perpetuals sub plot to the heresy series.

Which story is that one by the way?

[eldargal]

I don't recall the name actually, kind of threw it away in disgust after a while. I think it had Fire in the title?

I don't actually mind Marines being OTT so long as it is written believably and often it isn't. Eldar have more advanced technology afterall and are SUPPOSED to be a worry even to Marines, that's why the IoM by and large tries not to provoke them.

[Deadlift]

yeah that is the stuff that irritates me, though I am also developing a serious irritation at the stupid perpetuals sub plot to the heresy series.

Which story is that one by the way?

You have hit the nail on the head with this. I have all but given up on reading the HH books now. Just how long they continue to milk this cash cow is anyone's guess. But it's turned into a chore now to read them as the overall story is going nowhere. I only hope to actually read the finale before I die.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

The only Manders novels out there are the Nick Kyme ones. The bit you're referring to is from Brothers of the Snake I think during the Undertaking to Eidon. They stand in the breach of a routing dark-eldar force and over the few hours it takes they (and the other marines present) kill 3000 dark eldar. Expending all their ammo, and finally resorting to just killing anything within arms reach while the DE flee past them. I think at one point the detonate their squad plasma gun in the middle of a bunch of them too.
By the end of it they're totally spent, and the only reason they're not dead is because the kabalites are too busy fleeing in a blind panic to fight back.

[eldargal]

Meh, it was still pretty ****, even expending all their ammunition it was a ridiculously OTT kill count relying on poor story telling to justify it in my opinion. Net result is Dark Eldar look ****, Marines look awesome and we get a continuation of GWs Worf Effect approach to Eldar.

[daboarder]

Meh, it was still pretty ****, even expending all their ammunition it was a ridiculously OTT kill count relying on poor story telling to justify it in my opinion. Net result is Dark Eldar look ****, Marines look awesome and we get a continuation of GWs Worf Effect approach to everyone not loyalist marines.


Fixed that for you

[eldargal]

Not really, Necrons get their own Worf Effect being almost a race of Mary Sues at times, Tau get treated generally fairly well but Eldar get Worfed all the time. Eldar have superior tech but they are usually written like weaker Orks in tissue paper with peashooters in terms of tactics and threat to Marines. It does Marines no favours either, if they are so ridiculous then their achievements are diminished, it's like praising a bodybuilder for beating up a school of five year olds.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Not really, Necrons get their own Worf Effect being almost a race of Mary Sues at times, Tau get treated generally fairly well but Eldar get Worfed all the time. Eldar have superior tech but they are usually written like weaker Orks in tissue paper with peashooters in terms of tactics and threat to Marines. It does Marines no favours either, if they are so ridiculous then their achievements are diminished, it's like praising a bodybuilder for beating up a school of five year olds.

Eldar do deserve a better representation. If only because they should be badass. The DE in that book DO get depicted as threatening, when they're not routing. Later about 2 dozen of them return for vengence and are a genuine threat because they're not in mid rout, and in fact earlier in that infamous 3k kills fight they're holding their own man for man vs marines (even driving them scuttling to cover) when they're doing ok. The moment the wholesale slaughter begins is when they drop their weapons and start fleeing, and in fairness yeah, id expect marines to be able to slaughter fleeing droves of panicking eldar trying to cram through a small gap.
There are about a million marines, give or take.
They protect an empire of billions of planets and trillions of people, pretty damn well.
They should be pointlessly badass.
Again look at them laid out in Inquisitor, in that they can do the damage of a big guy with a decent weapon with their bare hands. Punch your head off through a wall.
Take a plasma hit and keep charging (just).
Throw a rock so hard it red mists an average human.
So on;
Eldar make humans look awful.
And their goons have the comparative skill and abilities that make them capable of matching a marine in terms of martial prowess.
But at the end of the day the marine only has to connect ONCE.

[Nabterayl]

BUT and this is the bit I liked, when they hit something they couldn't handle they were totally lost.
There was this moment where they were basically "Hang on, we're not winning, WTF?"
And when they come up against a well prepared enemy they're in worse shape too.
Which is the point I'm trying to make when I talk about space marines as commandos. There are all sorts of things that an entire space marine chapter simply cannot do. The entire Blood Angels chapter fleet has less than two cruiser squadrons' worth of vessels. When concentrated, that is a lot of naval power in this universe - but only because navies generally don't concentrate. If my system was protected by a handful of sublight-only escorts and a strike cruiser showed up, I'd probably think twice about rebelling too. On the other hand, if my system was protected by even a single squadron of cruisers plus escorts and a strike cruiser showed up, I'd just laugh.

It took over a dozen million Guardsmen - combat troops, not boots on the ground - to reduce a single fortress on a single world in the Vraks campaign, because it was actually fortified. I don't think that a thousand space marines, even if they emptied the armory, could do the same. It took over a hundred thousand Guardsmen, a Navy squadron, a demi-maniple of titans, and a company-strength strike force of space marines to not conquer Taros, which was only held by about ten thousand fire warriors, about ten thousand PDF, and a Kor'vattra carrier squadron. Could a thousand space marines, without the Guardsmen, the Navy, and the titans, have done better? I doubt it.

Space marines are wonderful force multipliers, I absolutely agree, but they need a force to multiply if you want them to take and hold a hard target. A thousand space marines, by themselves, isn't going to plow through very much determined resistance when the marines are forced to attack (conversely, I think it would take a great deal of combat power to root out a thousand space marines on the defensive). I think GW is aware of this; they just don't mention it all that often. Remember who beat back Hive Fleet Behemoth from Ultramar? The Ultramarines ... at the head of hundreds and hundreds of regiments of Auxilia. There's no indication that the Ultramarines themselves - the thousand plus dudes in power armor, alone - could have done that.

That is why I think the Ultramarines are head and shoulders above the other chapters in terms of power. Imagine trying to conquer a system that is somewhere in between a highly valuable strategic target like Vraks and a backwater like Taros. You've got to plow through maybe twelve capital ships and two dozen escorts to make planetfall, and all the interesting landing sites are well defended by surface to orbit batteries. The world is held by maybe a million combat troops, with something like a hundred thousand tanks. Most chapters are going to have a hard time even running the naval blockade, but even if the blockade just stood aside, you'd be at about a thousand to one odds in both foot and armor. Can you conquer that world? Certainly not. Can you take and hold one or two strategic sites on that world? I doubt it, given that if you land at all it's probably only with a company or two. But maybe. And then you've basically ground your entire chapter into dust taking one world, because you tried to do it with a thousand commandos instead of a thousand commandos and an army. But the Ultramarines have an army, and it isn't their successor chapters. It's the Ultramar Auxilia, which has the ability, we're told, to deploy hundreds of regiments outside of Ultramar. They have a navy - the Ultramar Defense Fleet - of concomitant strength.

I wouldn't say that the entire Ultramarines chapter at the head of the Ultramar Auxilia and Ultramar Defense Fleet is more powerful than, say, the entire Space Wolves chapter at the head of an equally large and well-trained Guard and Navy expeditionary force. The difference for this exercise is that the Space Wolves don't just have that kind of force to multiply lying around under their direct control, while the Ultramarines do.

[eldargal]

What Nab said.

[biffster666]

Completely agree that the Ultramarines are the undisputed #1 Nabterayl, that's why I have the Space Wolves at #2 :D I also love how you described 12 million guardsmen, freaking awesome.

Ultramarines #1
Space Wolves #2
Blood Angels #3
Iron Hands #4

Still not jumping on that 'commando' train though, not saying it's not a valid point, just not drinking that particular cup of kool-aid dude. It's all good :D

So many Language instructors/teachers/profs are rolling over in their graves regarding synonyms. Very funny though, very funny hehehe

[Cactus]

I've always thought that the Ultramarines were the penultimate SM chapter, both in terms of influence and power. They have the ear of most of the leadership in the political arena as well as the best resources at hand for any military action. The Imperial Fists a close second. The Inquisition is a good wild card though.

Wolves are savage, fearsome, and kill a lot of stuff, but hold little political sway in the Imperial politics. Blood Angels are fairly political and are tough on the battle field, but their unsavory mutations have left them on the outside looking in.

However, most of the GW fluff is written like Gork and Mork - Gork is brutally cunning while Mork is cunningly brutal.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

I for one think that its all a mix up on who is involved and how much political capital they are willing to expend. take the imperial fists and their court marshal for the renegade soul drinkers. you have multiple chapters with gripes and yet they and even the inquisition choose to follow Pugh.

then you have the war with the grey knights and space wolves. the wolves have the military power to do as they please and the resources to hold out and cause serious damage. yet they were unable to call upon any resources to assist them in their struggle. you can look at some of the other chapters that have crossed the inquisition it doesn't end well.

Yet even the inquisition has its own limits. take the damoclese crusade... last time i read that novel the inquisitor is killed in the end. heck even amungst their own forces they tend to turn on one another.


so to sum if up as much of a non answer it is it all truly depends on the situation and those involved. where some tout the ultra marines as the biggest and the baddest they completely forget the autonomy of many other space marine chapters. not every sm chapter bow's to the ultra's. It all comes down to who is willing to ruffel who's feathers.

also if you look at the inquisition vs the wolves that was one inquisitor who called in all of his favors until he was out of them. .... he had grey knights that were talking about offing him for crying out loud.

[Nabterayl]

I've always thought that the Ultramarines were the penultimate SM chapter, both in terms of influence and power. They have the ear of most of the leadership in the political arena as well as the best resources at hand for any military action. The Imperial Fists a close second.
I ... think you meant to say ultimate? Penultimate means "second" (as in, prior to the ultimate). Or maybe I just totally misunderstood you.

[Katharon]

So many Language instructors/teachers/profs are rolling over in their graves regarding synonyms. Very funny though, very funny hehehe

biffster, you're the only one who seems to not understand the language usage most of us are using. I'd invite you to re-read the thread posts -- but you'd just continue being your own ignorant and self-absorbed self.

@Nabterayl: I agree with nearly all that you are saying, however I would expand on one point. When the Astartes were organized into Legions, at a point when you could call them an army unto themselves, they were more than capable of multiple, simultaneous palentary conquests. I think this comes about, not just from the fact that they are Space Marines, but because they had the logistics of an Astartes army behind them. Several of the HH books have made clear just how demanding of resources the method of warfare the Legions exerted cost. As such, with the breakdown of the Legion organization in favor of the Chapter-sized contingents, the Astartes are relegated down to the "commando" level that Nabterayl mentioned. They no longer have a massive logistical spine supporting their Astartes war muscle -- and only so many chapters are blessed to have Mechanicus forge ships that accompany their Chapter fleets (I think Black Templars, Salamanders, and Iron Hands might posses the most).

As such, from a military standpoint, the Ultramarines are indeed the most powerful chapter in the Imperium of Man. They have not just a single fleet or planet to call home, but an entire sector of space, with hundreds of worlds within it and hundreds -- if not thousands -- of Auxilia regiments to support them; all of which is backed by an industrial base and logistics mechanism that would be the envy of any other such military formation.

From a political standpoint, the waters are much more murky. You not only have to take into account the influence of each chapter in accordance to it's history and prestige -- but it is also necessary to take into account the arenas in which these chapters choose to act upon their influence or political power (a point that I am making for the second or third time now). In this respect the Chapter that has the largest area in which to flex its political muscle and[\b] have its writ taken seriously, gives us only one choice: the Grey Knights. As the ultimate and final word on all things daemonic and as the steel fist of the Ordos Malleus, every corner of the Imperium is under their scrutinty. No other chapter can claim that kind of political power or breadth of authority.


So...

[B]Most [Militarily] Powerful Chapter
Ultramarines

Most [Politically] Influential Chapter
Grey Knights

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I'd reverse the two. You have Ultramar wrong; it's only a few worlds now, the others From the previous 500 were parcelled out at the Second Founding. The Ultramarines have tremendous political influence as the spiritual ancestor Chapter of two thirds of all Space Marines; the Lord Macragge has favours and old treaties he can call in with many of those Chapters, especially the Primogenitors - essentially the shadow Ultramarines Legion. Lots of first foundings have this relationship with their Second Founding, but in the Ultramarines' case they've got tens more of these than anyone else.

They're a military force to be reckoned with, and you're right to mention the auxilia. But they like to play things by the book. Other Chapters are also as adept at heading up coalitions, and the Ultramarines themselves will defer to an especially experienced or respected leader - like Dante in the Second Armageddon War. Note also echoes there kf Guilliman's supreme regard for Sanguinius!

The Ultramarines also have an epic reputation for being all that it means to be a Space Marine throughout the Imperium. It's why the High Lords order them to retake Damnos; the Ultramarines can't be seen to have failed. A victory on Damnos is a victory for the soul of the Imperium. Other Chapters have this, too - the Space Wolves have a demotic appeal, the Salamanders also, and f course the Blood Angels.

But it's for these reasons that I think the Ultramarines win out on politics and influence.

The Grey Knights have a huge remit and awesome power, but they have no political influence. Nobody is even allowed to know they exist. They don't play politics, they exterminate Daemons. The Grey Knights, by their lresence, can't take over a warzone, can't depose a governor and impose martial law. The Inquisition can do those things and so can Marine Chapter Masters, but the Grey Knights are devoted to their eternal shadow-war. They don't even have any autonomy.

Militarily, I don't think there's just one. Space Marines are all pretty terrifying, especially when there's lots of them.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Alot of people forget the Fists and their sucessors... Can't really get anymore tighter knit group then one that gets together regularly for the feast of blades. not to mention their space fleet as well as oh this moon sized starfort known as the phalanx. then there is also the templars and their crusading fleets as well as the dark angles... who didn't really break down into sucessors as they all pretty much work as a legion and i would make the leap that if the lion ever wakes his butt up would quickly reunite and the high lords or terra and the inquisition would quickly submitt to the rule of the lion.

[Cactus]

I ... think you meant to say ultimate? Penultimate means "second" (as in, prior to the ultimate). Or maybe I just totally misunderstood you.

I think I clicked through my spellcorrect too fast and failed to catch that... Ultramarines = ultimate.

[Katharon]

You have Ultramar wrong; it's only a few worlds now, the others From the previous 500 were parcelled out at the Second Founding. The Ultramarines have tremendous political influence as the spiritual ancestor Chapter of two thirds of all Space Marines; the Lord Macragge has favours and old treaties he can call in with many of those Chapters, especially the Primogenitors - essentially the shadow Ultramarines Legion. Lots of first foundings have this relationship with their Second Founding, but in the Ultramarines' case they've got tens more of these than anyone else.


Ok, so they have eleven worlds not five hundred -- that's still ten times more than any other chapter in terms of resources to draw upon. Also, I believe you are overestimating the political influence. Just because several dozens of chapters (if not more) pay heed to the Ultramarines does not immediately equate to political coin that the Master of Macragge may then spend. Not all Chapters are created equal and many are famous for being at odds with the various organs of the Adeptus Terra; so to believe that just because Marneus Calgar can *harumph* and point over his shoulder at all these other chapters, that's not going to get him a great deal of political influence. However, it does lend extra credence to the military argument, due to the fact that those same chapters will gladly answer the call to arms sent out from the master of the Ultramarines.







They're a military force to be reckoned with, and you're right to mention the auxilia. But they like to play things by the book. Other Chapters are also as adept at heading up coalitions, and the Ultramarines themselves will defer to an especially experienced or respected leader - like Dante in the Second Armageddon War. Note also echoes there kf Guilliman's supreme regard for Sanguinius!

Tu'Shan and Calgar gave deference to Dante because it was Dante -- not because Guilliman had any regard for Sanguinius 10,000 years before. Dante is the oldest living (not in a dreadnought or stasis field) Space Marine and a Chapter Master of a Founding Chapter, by that alone any other Chapter Master would dip their heads in agreement that he should lead.



The Ultramarines also have an epic reputation for being all that it means to be a Space Marine throughout the Imperium. It's why the High Lords order them to retake Damnos; the Ultramarines can't be seen to have failed. A victory on Damnos is a victory for the soul of the Imperium. Other Chapters have this, too - the Space Wolves have a demotic appeal, the Salamanders also, and f course the Blood Angels.

When exactly did this happen? I'd like to see a source for them "retaking" Damnos. Seeing as how it involved Necrons, the SOP of the Imperial authorities would have been to erase all references to Damnos from the public and either prep for a Terminatus or simply blockade the planet. Seeing as how the Ultramarines were defeated in the first offing, I'd be less inclined to have them do it a second time unless they had support from other quarters.



But it's for these reasons that I think the Ultramarines win out on politics and influence.


Not good enough reasons or for misconstrued reasons...



The Grey Knights have a huge remit and awesome power, but they have no political influence. Nobody is even allowed to know they exist.

Ok, first off, the fluff regarding their "incognito" status was written by Matt Ward. He butchers fluff because that's just what he does. Anything written in the 5th edition codex should be taken with a pound of salt.



They don't play politics, they exterminate Daemons. The Grey Knights, by their lresence, can't take over a warzone, can't depose a governor and impose martial law. The Inquisition can do those things and so can Marine Chapter Masters, but the Grey Knights are devoted to their eternal shadow-war. They don't even have any autonomy.


To be part of the Inquisition is to be a part of and within the political arena of the IoM. Grey Knights can take over warzones, can depose planetary governors, and if they didn't leave most people dead in their wake -- would impose martial law. As an integral part of a major Inquisition Ordo, the Chapter Master of the Grey Knights has even more personal authority and power than any other Chapter Master in the IoM.

While they might not have what could equate to the "autonomy" of other Space Marine chapters (I'd even argue that none do, not really -- since they are all bound to obey the High Lords of Terra) but they are able to influence the outcomes of major decisions regarding daemonic incursions. A thought to which a lot of IG players should be thinking about, seeing as how Cadia is over half-way conquered by the 13th Black Crusade and has gone under daemonic attack for a long period of time.



Militarily, I don't think there's just one.

Congrats then, because that is exactly the opposite of what we've all been discussing and arguing over for nine pages...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Retaking Damnos is in the new Warzone: Damnos. It happens exactly as I've said.

I still disagree, but I don't feel the need to argue endlessly about this. If you're selectively downplaying material because it disagrees with you... Well. 'Because Mat Ward' is not good reasoning.

[Katharon]

Retaking Damnos is in the new Warzone: Damnos. It happens exactly as I've said.

I still disagree, but I don't feel the need to argue endlessly about this. If you're selectively downplaying material because it disagrees with you... Well. 'Because Mat Ward' is not good reasoning.

I will have to give that a look-see. We could see-saw back and forth, but I will remain quite adamant so yeah...kind of pointless. And never, ever underestimate the "Ward Effect" -- it's a very valid reason. We should be protecting more fluff from Ward. When the writer for Codex: Chaos Space Marines was being chosen, Phil Kelly straight up said "Matt, if you even sniff in the direction of *my* codex, I'll punch you."

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I will have to give that a look-see. We could see-saw back and forth, but I will remain quite adamant so yeah...kind of pointless. And never, ever underestimate the "Ward Effect" -- it's a very valid reason. We should be protecting more fluff from Ward. When the writer for Codex: Chaos Space Marines was being chosen, Phil Kelly straight up said "Matt, if you even sniff in the direction of *my* codex, I'll punch you."

While in principle I dislike some of Ward's stuff, once it's written it's there.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The thing is, also, all books are a collaborative project. It's never the case that one writer goes off and changes everything without the rest of the studio at least being aware, and presumably okay, with it. Mat Ward didn't say "let these things be so", and thus they were, of his own accord, without feedback or input.


"Matt, if you even sniff in the direction of *my* codex, I'll punch you."

This is presumably the same Phil Kelly who said that the Eldar Battle Focus rule was a Ward idea, right?

[Katharon]

I'm talking about Phil Kelly's fluff writing in comparison to Wards. I could care less about whatever rules writing either of them does. And no, the fluff writing part is not a collaborative effort. They have an editor take a look at it to make sure most of the spelling mistakes are taken out, but the lore that these guys pump out is directly from them.

[Psychosplodge]

Could be this one, and we just don't know it

http://i40.tinypic.com/2rfelpg.jpg

[Kaptain Badrukk]

A) Ward has made some dodgey calls, but no-where near as mad as the stuff from the old WFB or 40k novels. Ian Watson for example.
Now I have issue with some of the stuff he's done, but I'm good with most of it.
Hell I like the new Necrons.
He's learning, and he'll get better.
Hell I was up for that job when I worked for GW, along with a mate of mine.
I made the final 200, my mate made the final 13!
They chose none of the interviewees.
If they'd picked me someone out there would right now be ranting about me instead.
Oh and Splodge, THAT IS AWESOME!:D

[Psychosplodge]

Oh and Splodge, THAT IS AWESOME!:D

The internet isn't only there to scar you...

[Wolfshade]

^^ A random sarge will be painted like this in my bangels.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

And no, the fluff writing part is not a collaborative effort. They have an editor take a look at it to make sure most of the spelling mistakes are taken out, but the lore that these guys pump out is directly from them.

There's the words that they write, and there's the overall direction of the army. So while what you say is strictly accurate, it is not the case that one lone gunman decides that now Necrons are all sentient space-Egyptians. That's a collaborative decision.

So on the Grey Knights question: pure Ward is the writeup of Draigo, the fiction for the characters. Not Pure Ward, because it's the Nature of The Army as Decided, is the fact that Grey Knights are secretive.

But, anyway, look: you know my position, I know yours, I'm out. In the end, it really doesn't matter. Peace! :)

[Psychosplodge]

^^ A random sarge will be painted like this in my bangels.

Do an assault squad on foot, now that would be scary...

[Dalleron]

deadpool would totally be lukas from the SW. Too bad he's red.

[biffster666]

Finally able to look in my SW codex and the only reference to Great Company size is on page 17...

"The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all."

You're 100% correct Nabteryal about the size of Ragnars Great Company being around two hundred, I totally thought it was around one hundred eighty, but Grimnar still has the largest Great Company somewhere north of two hundred. I of course had to then make a trip to my LGS to bump my Great Wolf Company up to two fifty. So kewl that they come with a drop pod instead of a rhino :D.

One last plug for the Space Wolves at #2 is Bjorn the Fell-Handed. First hand knowledge of the Emperor and the Primarch. He's also the only space marine to punch the 'Avatar' of one of the big four in the face.

[Katharon]

One last plug for the Space Wolves at #2 is Bjorn the Fell-Handed. First hand knowledge of the Emperor and the Primarch. He's also the only space marine to punch the 'Avatar' of one of the big four in the face.

Sad thing is that most Dreadnoughts lose their memories over time or develop a form of Space Marine Alzheimers, though he seemed to be fairly cogent in the Battle of the Fang -- but I think that happened a millennium after the HH. Long enough that the Space Wolves had all changed from their Legion status, but not long enough that Bjorn's memories had decayed that much. I'd love to see some more books focused on Bjorn in the 40th millennium, to see if he develops that same kind of action, where in the middle of combat he re-lives old battles and such.

[biffster666]

The HH took place in M31, the First War of Armaggeddon took place in m41 (444.m41). We're around 995999.M41 now, his memory has held up just fine :D I would love a book centered around Bjorn, but I feel BL has put out a ton of SW stuff already so I can't get too greedy hehe

[MisterCyto]

From a completely analytical point of view; imo Ultramarines are the most powerful. That aside, next in line I'd say is pretty subjective. Dorn's Fists and their successors, the DA and successors, and even BA and successors. If the criteria for most powerful didn't involve being able to draw on other chapters or star systems, I'd say the Templars and Wolves, possibly the Iron Hands too are the top 3.

[The Sovereign]

As a diehard Wolves fanboy, I'm going to say Ultramines is the thread-ender here.

[Ravingbantha]

I would say that the Ultramarines are the most influential chapters, they are basicly the Empires posterboys for so many reasons. For the most powerful, I would argue the Space Wolves are. There are several mentions about attempts to disband the Space Wolves or bring them in on charges of Heresy, but were unable to due to the might of the Wolves. I know there is much debate at the size of the chapter, but I would argue they are still close to or at least half a Legion in size. They were one of the most resistant to the breaking up of Chapters, and the only successor Chapter known did not last long. The wolves also did not suffer a lot of Casulties in the Heresy due to their late entrance.

The only Great Company that we have an actual number on is Bran Red Maw's Company, it's listed at just over 200 marines, but is also noted that he has a relatively small company due to his problems with the Wolfen. I would say that any Chapter that is 'allowed' to exist because the Imperium is afraid to try and destroy them has my vote for most powerful.

[Nabterayl]

The only Great Company that we have an actual number on is Bran Red Maw's Company, it's listed at just over 200 marines, but is also noted that he has a relatively small company due to his problems with the Wolfen.
What's your cite for that? The current Space Wolves codex, on page 17, appears to list Blackmane's great company as second biggest at just under two hundred marines:


The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened
warriors and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

I would throw in your going over power = number of marines then Templar's would be your most powerful. depending on the source number vary from 5,000-8,000 marines. its stated that they would be the most powerful marine chapter but due to their constant crusading nature that they are never united as a single powerful force. if i remember it's even implied that this is how they have hidden their number's from the inquisition and that the high lords do know but that their loyalty is not questioned thus this breach in the codex Astartes is overlooked.

[Darren Richardson]

Oddly enough, I am going to throw the Salamanders hat into the ring...
....Influence, these guys have tonnes of it, due to their humanitarian ways, they are famous for saving lives, and the Imperium loves them for it.

I agree, the Salamanders are reknown Imperium wide for their efforts to aid the common people of the Imperium with reconstruction aid after major conflicts, and even during conflicts, as the fluff from after the Armagedon campaign pointed out..

The Chapter Master almost came to blows with the Chapter Master of the Marines Malevolent because they shelled a refugee camp which was being attacked by Orks....

So when it comes down to power, having the respect of the citizens you are fighting for counts more then numbers/tanks/spaceships etc, if the people love you, they will stand with you!