Baal Predator Vs. Vindicator?

[ElectricPaladin]

One of the benefits of fielding Blood Angels is the universal speed of all rhino-chassis tanks, including the loved and feared vindicator. Another benefit is the appearance of a whole new kind of rhino-chassis tank: the Baal predator, a fast predator with the Scouts special rule and your choice of devastating anti-infantry firepower (either flamestorm cannons and heavy flamers or assault cannons and heavy bolters - you pick).

Of all these options: fast predators, fast vindicators, fast whirlwinds (for that matter), or baal predators, which one is best for a Blood Angels army?

Originally, I was very inclined towards Baal predators. There's a lot to recommend them. Fully loaded, any kind of Baal predator can put out a lot of shots, or fewer shots but the ability to ignore cover. Additionally with the Scouts USR, the tank can either outflank or redploy, both of which are powerful situational advantages.

At the same time, however, the vindicator has the ability to drop 10/2 Large Blast Ordnance. That sort of attack will crack most vehicles - up to and including the rare AV 14 monstrosity - and demolish most infantry. The whirlwind's attacks aren't terribly powerful, but they are very long range and have the option to ignore cover. The vanilla predator can bring a huge number of highly mobile lascannons to the table, and there's almost no such thing as too many of those.

At the moment - despite my original allegiance to the Baal predator - I find myself drawn towards the whirlwind. Blood Angels don't need help mopping up infantry at range, but a vindicator's ability to crack armor can be a real asset, and their speed gets around the vanilla vindicator's biggest weakness (the short range of its weapon), as the ability to move 12'' and still fire a cannon with a range of 24'' gives a Blood Angels vindicator a 36'' threat.

What do you think? I'm very nearly set on a vindicator being the next thing to add to my Blood Angels army, and I'd love to read a spirited debate on the topic.

[plawolf]

I had pretty much the same dilemma myself. The Vindicator is a great tank, but everyone knows and fears it when facing one across the table, so it will draw a lot of fire. As such, you really need 2 of them to have a good chance of doing something with them other than act as a fire magnet. But when they land a punch, the unit really feels it.

BAALs are altogether less intimidating, so they tend to last longer, especially if you have plenty of other armour on the table. The BAAL's ability to soften up units for your own RAS has also became more important since FC was nerfed and we no longer went first against most opponents.

Ultimately, there is no obviously superior choice. It all comes down to your play style, army list and local meta. My advice would be to proxy both and get a few games in to see how you feel about each before sinking your funds into a model.

[ElectricPaladin]

Ultimately, there is no obviously superior choice. It all comes down to your play style, army list and local meta. My advice would be to proxy both and get a few games in to see how you feel about each before sinking your funds into a model.

Well, it's basically a foregone conclusion that I will eventually get a vindicator. That said, I already have a Baal predator, and I'll probably try proxying it as a vindicator once or twice and see how it plays.

Alternately, I could always use the vindicator I already have... for my Exorcists... as a proxy. I know, I have a problem :D.

[Wolfshade]

I got the linebreaker squad and have been running triple vindicator lists since then. Though, during 5th, I didn't do that with the change to the way the S of the weapon worked out.

I also try and shoehorn at least one Baal with Assault Cannon.

The draw back of the vindi is it's short range, which isn't too much of an hinderance given that it is fast.

I really dislike the flame options for the Baal, not because I think that they aren't useful, but because while you can fire everything with assault cannon and heavy bolter the same cannot be said with the flamers, then you have the other problem that if you fail to clear the squad then you risk your tank being assaulted, which with melta weaponry and powerfists the tanks rear armour pops too readily, I prefer a slightly further distance between my tanks and enemy infantry.

The other thing to consider is that the vinidi is the only S10 option in the codex

[Bob821]

BA Vindicator all the way.

The vindicator does two things totally amazingly. Attract fire and kill stuff. I like to take two that way I'm sure I'll get at least one or two shots. Some times 3 or 4 if I go first before they are blown to bits. The damage this can do to a tightly blobbed gun line can not be underestermated IMO.

Baal preds and normal preds have there place and do tend to live a little longer if you keep the front pointed at the baddies but the I feel the job they do is done better by other options in the Codex. The only exption I have found to this is when the terrain is very thick a Baal pred with a flamestorm cannon can do amazing work againt dug in 3+ armour.

[Angelus Mortifer]

As Wolf and Plawolf mentioned, currently the Vindi is by far the preferrable option. Great deterrent; Fast making them board denial better than the vanilla version, but equally 2 is always better then taking 1 to get the most out of the changes to Blast markers. AV13 has also improved generally given the "general" move away from Melta and towards Plasma (but I appreciate individual groups will have a different meta to that).

Saying that, I still like the Baal for its flexibility, with Outflanking + Fast + scoring for that one mission that makes them so, and with AC/HB as the load out, it still chews through low armour infantry very well. I have always found them lacklustre against Marine equivalent armour though - despite the number of dice you can roll, 3+ still seems to mitigate its anti-infantry effectiveness. In 5th, the multi-template version was great, but HP and making vehicles soooo easy to assault in this edition makes any of the flamer options completely irrelevant. Yes, you can dish out one turn of potent damage but in all likelihood it's then gone in the following assault phase - and it's not just about maikng its points back to make it seem worthwhile. Killing 115pts of an enemy unit is all well and good, but if some of that unit remains, is also scoring, and can get to an objective, then just killing 115pts worth is not a fair or justifiable trade.

I should have mentioned this in your BA speculation thread, but I would really like to see the Flamestorm on the Baal become a Torrent weapon as and when we get a new book. That, plus HB sponsons would make a template load-out viable (but HF sponsons will still be redundant in this edition unless they make some Chapter specific changes to them as well). For me, a Vindi is nearly always a preferrable choice to the Baal, until they change some of its rules to make it a considered choice again. My 2p's worth :D

[Katharon]

Your choice should be determined by the tactics you intend to use and how you intend to use each tank. If you *want* to have a scary distraction that can't be ignored unless they want S10 pie-plates in the face, then you take the Vindicator. It can be a real asset in breaking defensive lines or anything in particular.

If you need something more mobile and with a far more varied armament to allow for tactical flexibility, then the Baal Predator is your tank (usually, I'd go with the standard autocannon and bolters, but if you are going against horde armies, then the flamers are the way to go -- obviously).

I have personally never seen the use of Whirlwinds for the Space Marine armies. Their range is the same as most heavy weapons that can be carried by a Devastator squad, and they will never be able to dish out the same amount of damage that a Dev squad can; ergo, don't waste points on them.

[Houghten]

Why choose?

4848

[Tynskel]

yeah, why choose? Take both. That's what I do.

[ElectricPaladin]

Why choose?

4848

Holy ****balls. Anything that gets within 24'' of that is dead.

[Wolfshade]

Why choose?

4848

Special Rules: Fire At Will

If the vehicle fires all of it weapons to calculate the recoil roll on the table below:
Stationary - Vehicle recoils 2D6" in the opposite direction to the direction firing.
Combat Speed - Vehicle recoils D6" in the opposite direction to the direction firing.
Cruising Speed - Roll a D6, on a result of 1-5 the vehicle is unaffected, on a roll of 6, the vehicle spins round with the force of the barrage meeting the momentum of movement, roll a scatter dice to determine the new facing direction (a Hit counts as staying facing in the same direction) lose 1 HP.

[Bob821]

Special Rules: Fire At Will

If the vehicle fires all of it weapons to calculate the recoil roll on the table below:
Stationary - Vehicle recoils 2D6" in the opposite direction to the direction firing.
Combat Speed - Vehicle recoils D6" in the opposite direction to the direction firing.
Cruising Speed - Roll a D6, on a result of 1-5 the vehicle is unaffected, on a roll of 6, the vehicle spins round with the force of the barrage meeting the momentum of movement, roll a scatter dice to determine the new facing direction (a Hit counts as staying facing in the same direction) lose 1 HP.

Sounds a little orky!

[Wolfshade]

Sounds a little orky!

Yeah probably a little unrefined for the imperials.