Choosing an army for fantasy

[XxD3Sm0nDxX]

I'm debating on whether to start skaven, lizardmen, or tomb kings. I like the look of each army and just want to learn a little more about their play styles. I currently play 40k, warmachine/hordes and malifaux. So yeh help me out interwebs

[Chronowraith]

I'm debating on whether to start skaven, lizardmen, or tomb kings. I like the look of each army and just want to learn a little more about their play styles. I currently play 40k, warmachine/hordes and malifaux. So yeh help me out interwebs

I can speak to this as Skaven are my army of choice, Tomb Kings are my backup army, and I'm currently working on a Lizardman army.

Skaven are all about a horde of bodies. They will almost always outnumber their opponents 2, 3, or even 4 to one. They use massive blocks of cheap infantry to tarpit the enemy and lock them in place before crashing something big and scary into the flanks. Their ranked troops are largely fodder but they perform their job well. They have a number of arcano-technical devices that are just as likely to explode and kill Skaven as they are to cause mayhem among their opponents. They use sneaky tricks like firing into combat (only against slaves) to aid them and they have some of the best monsters/mechanical devices around.

Tomb Kings can be played a few ways and it should be noted they play drastically different than the other undead faction, Vampire Counts. Tomb Kings are a magic-centric army that relies on balance. At the center of the army is the heirophant, a squishy caster who, if he dies, will lead to the demise of the entire army. They need some ranked infantry units to help keep enemies at bay and hide the heirophant but the real strength lies in their constructs which run the gamut from big gribbles like the War Sphinx and Necrosphinx, to support beasties like the Heirotitan, the hunter/stalkers like Tomb Scorpions and Stalkers, and finally the combat constructs like Ushabti and Necropolis Knights. Important to note that Tomb Kings are probably the slowest army in the game. They have a base move higher than dwarves but they can't march and while magic helps mitigate this, it isn't reliable.

Lizardmen are another magic heavy army, although they do not have to be (still, Slann are the best defensive casters in the game at the moment). They usually use ranked infantry combined with monsters and/or skirmishers to do the majority of their damage. Other than Chaos Warriors you'll be hard pressed to find a more destructive core choice than saurus warriors. The army has widespead access to poison weapons and the big monsters come in many flavors from the monster hunting Carnosaur, the infantry breaking Stegadon, and the support Bastilodon.

You may have seen a few trends there. 8th edition fantasy is all about ranked infantry. All successful armies will have at least a couple moderate to large units of ranked infantry (exact numbers for moderate to large vary based on race). Magic is a no-brainer, if nothing else to defend against the inevitable casters in the opponents force. While ranked combat has been lessened due to an increased cost of ranged troops in every book to hit the shelves since 8th edition started.

[Ben_S]

8th edition fantasy is all about ranked infantry. All successful armies will have at least a couple moderate to large units of ranked infantry (exact numbers for moderate to large vary based on race).

Not sure this is entirely true. I've heard of WoC armies that consist of something like a Daemon Prince, couple of mounted Heroes, 4-5 chariots as Core, two Chimerae, and 3-4 Skullcrushers. Such an army could, I think, be pretty successful against a non-tailored opposing list. But it is rather an extreme example.

I don't have any real experience with Skaven, but when I first came back to WFB I started collecting TKs but gave up. The consensus seems to be that they don't have a very powerful book and face an uphill struggle winning games. That needn't stop you playing with them and enjoying the challenge, but I think it's worth warning you of that - you may simply find them frustrating.

I used to play Lizards in 5th and, with the new models, would be very tempted by them myself. They're really colourful and you won't need the hundreds and hundreds of models you would with Skaven. Skaven could be due a new book of their own before too long, though I don't think it's mentioned in the current rumours.

[Chronowraith]

Most of the WoC lists out there that revolve around Nurgle Daemon Princes, Chimera, and Skullcrushers tend to take a block of nurgle warriors as well. Chariots, while doing tremendous amounts of damage, just don't stand up well after the initial charge and they can't kill enough to remove steadfast on larger units before they are taken down themselves.

Still... point observed. Most armies will have a few units of ranked infantry but it is not exactly a necessity depending on the army book. For the three armies the OP inquired about though, ranked infantry is a must with the Tomb Kings being the one with least reliance on ranked infantry (many successful lists often only have a unit of tomb guard for ranked infantry)

[Wildeybeast]

I wouldn't say TK face an uphill struggle, but they do require a certain finesse. Unlike some armies, you can't just pick you big smushy stuff or your fluff centric list and expect to still do ok. You have to get the balance right in picking your list and your battle line/plans needs to be well thought through so that your units all support each other in the most effective way. If you don't do that then it will be more of an uphill struggle than with most other races.

[XxD3Sm0nDxX]

Thanks Gents! Tomb kings are having problems with 8th edition can someone explain why people say they are low mid tier and what are their strengths?

[Chronowraith]

Thanks Gents! Tomb kings are having problems with 8th edition can someone explain why people say they are low mid tier and what are their strengths?

They really aren't bad but I certainly wouldn't consider them a beginner's army. Their strengths lie in their magic. Moreso than any other army they rely on characters to drive the army. They really need that Tomb King/Prince to boost the weapon skill of units and they must take a heirophant and usually are best served by taking a couple mages.

For strengths their best strength would be being undead. You never have to worry about your units falling back or breaking from combat (crumbling is something altogether different). This has a downside in that the army is slow as dirt (no marching) but can be offset through magic. The Nehekharan lore is pretty decent and offers many boosts to their units while at the same time restoring models/wounds.

The book is thought of mid to low tier because some integral parts of the book just weren't well thought out. Example would be the limitations to healing/returning models via magic and the rule that heirophants are the highest level caster and must take the nehekharan lore.

[XxD3Sm0nDxX]

in fantasy what phases really determines battles shooting,magic, or close combat?

[Wildeybeast]

Combat. Then Magic and lastly shooting. Unless you are packing war machines, shooting is largely irrelevant. Magic can be devastating but is highly unpredictable. Combat is where the game is won and lost, though clearly part of that rests on what you do in the movement phase.

[Chronowraith]

To expand on what Wildey said (which is absolutely correct)... this is one reason why Tomb Kings are considered a middle-tier army. They rely too heavily on having a good magic phase because without one their troops are pretty abyssmal in combat. Magic is pretty unpredictable and Tomb Kings have limited ways of making it less so (Casket of Souls and Heirophant being the two most obvious ones).

[XxD3Sm0nDxX]

Alrighty i have been reading the codecies cover to cover to pick which i should play. They both(TK and LM) rely on the magic phase,Lizardmen not so much. I may start with lizardmen then build Tomb kings after 9th edition is released. Lizard men seem quite solid, any advice?

[Chronowraith]

Advice really depends on point level. The new book has several solid builds and even some of the "fun" ones are pretty solid too. I'd suggest starting with a nice block of Saurus Warriors and add in some skink skirmishers for your core. Terradons and Ripperdactyls are both solid special choices along with Stegadons. Temple Guard are almost a must if you take a Slann Mage Priest. For rares I'd stick to salamanders. They've been toned down since the previous book but they are still a pretty nasty unit to help thin out hordes. Leaders you either go with a Slann Mage Priest with some skink or Saurus Heroes or go for the Oldblood on a Carnosaur with some skink priest heroes (one with a dispel scroll and the other with the cube of darkness).

In general though... play with what you want to play. There are very few "bad" choices in the book (I'm looking at you Bastilodon w/ Ark of Sotek).

[Wildeybeast]

To expand on what Wildey said (which is absolutely correct)... this is one reason why Tomb Kings are considered a middle-tier army. They rely too heavily on having a good magic phase because without one their troops are pretty abyssmal in combat. Magic is pretty unpredictable and Tomb Kings have limited ways of making it less so (Casket of Souls and Heirophant being the two most obvious ones).

Yeah, their magic is awesome but they are pretty reliant on it. Still, they have a few ways of making it more reliable. They have some great combat troops in Tomb Guard and the snake riders, but the rest of the army is pretty weak without the magic.

As for Lizards, I haven't played against the new book yet, but what Chronwraith says is pretty spot on. I'd recommend looking at Lore of Light to get your slow Saurus a much needed initiative boost.

[White Tiger88]

Go Vampires or Dark Elfs.....i say dark elfs for the new Witch Elve's having this on.


Thigh high boots and bras apparently, so should be fairly revealing.

:D

[tawelwch]

I'm wondering about starting to play too. I've painted a few models but not really had a go at the game. Is it best to start small? How many do you need for a game with the different armye please? I'm most interested in Tomb Kings & Wood Elves!
Thank you :)

[Wildeybeast]

As WE player, I honestly can't recommend them at the moment. They are uncompetitive, several units in the army book are completely useless, there is basically one effective build (which involves as few actual elves as possible) and much of the range is still in metal.

[White Tiger88]

I'm wondering about starting to play too. I've painted a few models but not really had a go at the game. Is it best to start small? How many do you need for a game with the different armye please? I'm most interested in Tomb Kings & Wood Elves!
Thank you :)

Start with a battle force and go unit by unit when building\paint or you will go crazy fast.........Both armies you picked are rather underpowered right now sadly. If you want Undead go for Vampires, If you want Elfs i would say Wait for the new Dark Elf Release. Or simply go High elfs they have some amazing models & are a great starting army! (Going first all the time is rather nice)

Oh and for undead i will warn you now the ranks upon ranks of painting bone can slowly eat your mind @_@ :p (Thats what happened to me!)

[tawelwch]

As WE player, I honestly can't recommend them at the moment. They are uncompetitive, several units in the army book are completely useless, there is basically one effective build (which involves as few actual elves as possible) and much of the range is still in metal.

I don't mind about not winning so much as long as it's fun. I'll spend much more time painting than playing! :)


Start with a battle force and go unit by unit when building\paint or you will go crazy fast.........Both armies you picked are rather underpowered right now sadly. If you want Undead go for Vampires, If you want Elfs i would say Wait for the new Dark Elf Release. Or simply go High elfs they have some amazing models & are a great starting army! (Going first all the time is rather nice)

Oh and for undead i will warn you now the ranks upon ranks of painting bone can slowly eat your mind @_@ :p (Thats what happened to me!)


I don't really want ones where I have to paint too many of the same thing so I think you put me off skeletons!

I'll have a look at the High Elf and Dark Elf stuff, thank you. I already painted a Wood Elf I really liked so that was what I like so much :)

thank you