A Theory Regarding the Fate of Sisters of Battle...

[ElectricPaladin]

What about being folded into the Imperial Guard codex?

I'm not suggesting that I would support this. It might even be enough to get me to sell out of Sisters, to be honest. However, with this new trend towards creating supplemental codices, I could see how it might be a solution to GW's Sisters problem.

Think about it:
• The Ecclesiarchy is already deeply involved the Guard, and an ecclesiarchy priest is one of the HQs you can take in a Guard army.
•*The Sisters have a statline that's a lot like the Guard's, except for a better BS and Save.
• The Acts of Faith system does a lot of the same stuff that the Orders system does, only not as well.

What I'm forseeing is Sisters of Battle as an in-codex option of what Space Marines allies provide from outside the codex, both in the fluff and on the table: small elite units supporting the main army by getting into close-ranged firefights, which they can survive thanks to their superior armor and skill.

If this were a just world, we wouldn't have to wait long to find out. Nobody - but nobody - needs an update as bad as the Sisters do right now.

So, what do you think? An interesting theory, or total nonsense?

[kire]

its actually quite a clever idea. i don't see it happening but i didnt think Templar would be folded in to codex space marines so what do i know

[daboarder]

What about being folded into the Imperial Guard codex?

I'm not suggesting that I would support this. It might even be enough to get me to sell out of Sisters, to be honest. However, with this new trend towards creating supplemental codices, I could see how it might be a solution to GW's Sisters problem.

Think about it:
• The Ecclesiarchy is already deeply involved the Guard, and an ecclesiarchy priest is one of the HQs you can take in a Guard army.
•*The Sisters have a statline that's a lot like the Guard's, except for a better BS and Save.
• The Acts of Faith system does a lot of the same stuff that the Orders system does, only not as well.

What I'm forseeing is Sisters of Battle as an in-codex option of what Space Marines allies provide from outside the codex, both in the fluff and on the table: small elite units supporting the main army by getting into close-ranged firefights, which they can survive thanks to their superior armor and skill.

If this were a just world, we wouldn't have to wait long to find out. Nobody - but nobody - needs an update as bad as the Sisters do right now.

So, what do you think? An interesting theory, or total nonsense?

An interesting theory and one that has been suggested before.

Me I just don't see it, a big part of the sisters is the political fallout from the reign of blood, and that means that baring rabble the church cannot field its own army of male soldiers as such it has the sisters of battle. and they are so fanatical they fight on their own terms, garrison ecclesiarchal shrine worlds, protect pilgrim routes and convoys. And have a deep distrust of ordinary imperial citizens (guard included)

I can see GW folding sisters (because they are stupid and don't get why the sales for them are so low) or doing the right thing and rebooting them as per DE, but I don't see them being half arsed folded into IG a codex already bloated with unit options.....which all probably means that is exactly what GW would do.

[Sainhann]

Wouldn't make GW any money.

No GW will either kill them off or will put out a overprice Codex for them.

[Gleipnir]

I think its more likely they would be folded into an inquisitor codex along with grey knights, possible deathwatch. With the supplement treatment to follow.

With unit options available being tied to which HQ option is selected and some units available across any branch of the inquisition, inquisitors, retinue, Assassins, etc.

[GrauGeist]

I have suggested that Sisters of Battle be an Imperial Guard supplement multiple times. The challenge is to resolve the Fluff issue with "men under arms", which is what probably stalls things. Expanding Sisters to a fully-fledged force with Monster / Anti-Monster; Flyers / Anti-Flyer; mobility, etc, etc. is just too much work for an army which historically does not sell. Particularly when 40k is suffering from rules & army bloat due to the CSM / Daemons split and all of the other factions getting Codices / Supplements. I suspect that rules-wise, Sisters might be somewhere between a Supplement and a Codex, perhaps a "super supplement" of sorts.

Assuming it can be resolved, then stat-wise Sisters are basically IG StormTroopers (Power Armor simply does not match the models in any way), but armed with Bolters instead of HotShot Lasguns:

WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Sv4+ - Ld7 Stormtrooper / Ld8 Sister of Battle.

A strong argument could be made for Ld8 Stormtroopers to unify the statline. But then there are also Arbites with Combat Shotguns, for whom Ld7 makes better sense. And then there are Grenadiers (Troops). Perhaps to split them as:
- Ld7 Arbite (S4 Shotgun) / Grenadier (S5 Lasgun) vs.
- Ld8 Sister (Bolter) / Stormtrooper (AP3 Lasgun)
Note that the IG Veteran is also essentially similar with Lasgun, but only Sv5+ Flak armor.

Anyhow, as a Guard supplement, Sisters would gain a lot of battlefield advantages, namely, the ability to leverage Guard units in some useful fashion. Also, the newly-added Sv6++ is a nice distinguishing feature. Consider:

WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv4+/6++ Sister of Battle (Carapace, Bolter)

Points-wise, this is does not need to be so expensive, which solves the problem of a semi-elite that isn't nearly as elite as a Space Marine. Especially considering that CSM are 13 points with WS4 S4 T4 I4.

As an Allied Stormtrooper-equivalent with slightly different rules, there's a lot of promise. But, even needing the update, it's still more work than other Supplements, and the revised rules & fluff to make it really work is non-trivial.

[daboarder]

I have suggested that Sisters of Battle be an Imperial Guard supplement multiple times. The challenge is to resolve the Fluff issue with "men under arms", which is what probably stalls things. Expanding Sisters to a fully-fledged force with Monster / Anti-Monster; Flyers / Anti-Flyer; mobility, etc, etc. is just too much work for an army which historically does not sell. Particularly when 40k is suffering from rules & army bloat due to the CSM / Daemons split and all of the other factions getting Codices / Supplements. I suspect that rules-wise, Sisters might be somewhere between a Supplement and a Codex, perhaps a "super supplement" of sorts.

Assuming it can be resolved, then stat-wise Sisters are basically IG StormTroopers (Power Armor simply does not match the models in any way), but armed with Bolters instead of HotShot Lasguns:

WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Sv4+ - Ld7 Stormtrooper / Ld8 Sister of Battle.

A strong argument could be made for Ld8 Stormtroopers to unify the statline. But then there are also Arbites with Combat Shotguns, for whom Ld7 makes better sense. And then there are Grenadiers (Troops). Perhaps to split them as:
- Ld7 Arbite (S4 Shotgun) / Grenadier (S5 Lasgun) vs.
- Ld8 Sister (Bolter) / Stormtrooper (AP3 Lasgun)
Note that the IG Veteran is also essentially similar with Lasgun, but only Sv5+ Flak armor.

Anyhow, as a Guard supplement, Sisters would gain a lot of battlefield advantages, namely, the ability to leverage Guard units in some useful fashion. Also, the newly-added Sv6++ is a nice distinguishing feature. Consider:

WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv4+/6++ Sister of Battle (Carapace, Bolter)

Points-wise, this is does not need to be so expensive, which solves the problem of a semi-elite that isn't nearly as elite as a Space Marine. Especially considering that CSM are 13 points with WS4 S4 T4 I4.

As an Allied Stormtrooper-equivalent with slightly different rules, there's a lot of promise. But, even needing the update, it's still more work than other Supplements, and the revised rules & fluff to make it really work is non-trivial.

yup too much work, just like dark eldar were dropped as too much work that could never possibly out sell marines.

[eldargal]

yup too much work, just like dark eldar were dropped as too much work that could never possibly out sell marines.
And Necrons and Grey Knights and Tau. This happens with every army that needs a revamp, SoB are the last and it will continue until they get one. It's really quite tedious.


SoB and Guard have very different playstyles, I can't see it working and from a lore perspective they just got retconned out of their join with the Inquisition so it doesn't seem that likely they would lump them in with someone else.

[daboarder]

And then we will have calls of CSM and dark angels being dropped or both rolled into the SM dex

[ElectricPaladin]

No GW will either kill them off or will put out a overprice Codex for them.

There's no evidence for this. The Black Templars were just folded into the Space Marines codex. I don't think that GW will kill any more armies - the bad press and customer abandonment they got by killing off the Squats was bad enough. I have heard from longer-term fans than myself that the backlash was pretty hellish. No... they will find a way to save them.


Power Armor simply does not match the models in any way...

This is just wrong. There are a lot of "human in power armor" models out there - mostly various inquisitors for the Grey Knights - and they are all decent models, and more or less scaled to the Sisters of Battle. Sister of Battle power armor looks perfectly legit./

[eldargal]

Folding Different Coloured Marines who had a single 4th (or 3rd, I forget) edition codex back into a Marine codex really compare to squatting an army that had a second, third and fifth edition codex either. As you say GW aren't squatting anyone and Jervis Johnson has confirmed TWICE that SoB are being worked on. The 'oh they will be folded in with someone else' line is just the last vestiges of the 'ermagerd they be squatted' argument. This isn't aimed at your idea EP.

[ElectricPaladin]

This isn't aimed at your idea EP.

No sweat.

Personally, I'm hoping against hope - possibly not that much against hope, given the quotes you cite - that the Sisters rise from the ashes of their current semi-codexed state like fabulous birds of flame and death. I was just curious about what this new trend towards supplemental codices and codex folding might mean for them.

I'm excited by this trend. I think it says good things about the survival of this game, in the long term, that GW can contract as well as expand and de-emphasize as well as elaborate.

[daboarder]

I'd drop at least a grand on plastic sisters without even caring about the rules.

I'd have to sell a kidney, but hey sacrifices and all that

[eldargal]

No sweat.

Personally, I'm hoping against hope - possibly not that much against hope, given the quotes you cite - that the Sisters rise from the ashes of their current semi-codexed state like fabulous birds of flame and death. I was just curious about what this new trend towards supplemental codices and codex folding might mean for them.

I'm excited by this trend. I think it says good things about the survival of this game, in the long term, that GW can contract as well as expand and de-emphasize as well as elaborate.
I don't think there is much doubt personally. I mean we have JJ saying they will be updated in time and the only arguments againt it happening to SoB are the same as those leveled at Dark Eldar, Necrons, Grey Knights and Tau. This isn't to say this guarantees a revamp but it certainly doesn't point to there being any compelling argument against it beyond wanting to complain about GW.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Personally I'd like to see a Codex Adeptus Imperialis,
Admec, Arbites and Soroitas all rolled into a singe £30 book, enough minis to form fairly homogeneous armies for all 3 (SOB don't have the unit spread that most codecies do) and then it'll find a dual use as either a main book for SOB players or an allies book for imperial players.
But I've been banging on about the hobby needing this book, and one for alien merc races for over a decade. Even talked to Phil Kelly about it once (maybe I should talk to Matt Ward about it at Gamesday, if he does it it's guaranteed to piss as many people off as possible :) ). But it'll never happen :(

[Mr Mystery]

I'd drop at least a grand on plastic sisters without even caring about the rules.

I'd have to sell a kidney, but hey sacrifices and all that

Your own Kidney I'd hope. I don't want a late night call to any more Motel bathrooms you know. I'm too old for that now.

[Mr Mystery]

I don't think there is much doubt personally. I mean we have JJ saying they will be updated in time and the only arguments againt it happening to SoB are the same as those leveled at Dark Eldar, Necrons, Grey Knights and Tau. This isn't to say this guarantees a revamp but it certainly doesn't point to there being any compelling argument against it beyond wanting to complain about GW.

Plus...who is likely to know better?

Man who pretty much is the studio, and is likely working on the very project.

Interscrote, who heard from a friend of a friend of Gav Thorpe's Mechanical Hamster's 2nd cousin twice removed's pubic lice?

[daboarder]

Your own Kidney I'd hope. I don't want a late night call to any more Motel bathrooms you know. I'm too old for that now.

It's alright Mystery, I got this, Piranha solution is great for lots of things, cleaning glassware, annealing metal, dissolving corpses.....

[eldargal]

Plus...who is likely to know better?

Man who pretty much is the studio, and is likely working on the very project.

Interscrote, who heard from a friend of a friend of Gav Thorpe's Mechanical Hamster's 2nd cousin twice removed's pubic lice?
Obviously some whiny brat who instead of hailing JJs comments refuses to believe them because it means he can continue whining about GW, that's who is right.;)

Kaptain Badrukk, SoB don't have the unit spread of a modern codex because they haven't been updated since 3rd edition and then in a hamfisted way. It would be easy enough for GW to create new units for them.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

There's a term for the kind of fan who refuses to believe Word of God canon information (and in this instance, JJ is pretty much God). I forget what it is, though.

[Mr Mystery]

Goon? Dakkaite?

[Kaptain Badrukk]

SoB don't have the unit spread of a modern codex because they haven't been updated since 3rd edition and then in a hamfisted way. It would be easy enough for GW to create new units for them.
Yeah, but even then they didn't have the spread of a lot of other armies, and a lot of the gap was filled by non-SOB inclusions like Inquisition bits, Stormtroopers and their wobbly (but fun) allies rules.
Don't get me wrong, have a modest SoB force and still think they're the best minis of that age, and am eagerly awaiting their return, I'm just wish listing the idea of an epic Ordos & Adeptus book of glory.

[Chris*ta]

An interesting theory and one that has been suggested before.

Me I just don't see it, a big part of the sisters is the political fallout from the reign of blood, and that means that baring rabble the church cannot field its own army of male soldiers as such it has the sisters of battle. and they are so fanatical they fight on their own terms, garrison ecclesiarchal shrine worlds, protect pilgrim routes and convoys. And have a deep distrust of ordinary imperial citizens (guard included)

I can see GW folding sisters (because they are stupid and don't get why the sales for them are so low) or doing the right thing and rebooting them as per DE, but I don't see them being half arsed folded into IG a codex already bloated with unit options.....which all probably means that is exactly what GW would do.

I think the biggest issue against them folding into the IG Codex is in the models (and remember that GW is primarily about the models). The Sisters are completely unlike IG; They need their own unique kits, they look nothing like any other range.

It's not to say that they need a huge number of kits, they could do with much the same treatment as Grey Knights, who only got 3 kits, right? Sisters could get by with, say foot troops, the jump pack ones, (I forget what they're called) sisters Penitent and then one more for the Penitent Engine. This is ignoring character models, it has to be said. Oh wait, Sisters would need one more for their three vehicles.

I could see a mega-Codex going to the Inquisition and the Ordines Militares, purely from a modelling standpoint. The Grey Knights have very few kits of their own, the Sisters have a few more, and the Deathwatch only really need an upgrade kit like Black Templars'.

I know Eldargal is against the idea, but I think it -- kind of -- makes sense, at least on the models.


There's a term for the kind of fan who refuses to believe Word of God canon information (and in this instance, JJ is pretty much God). I forget what it is, though.

D**k?

[eldargal]

I just think people are overestimating the problems facing SoB when they talk about merging them, because that is really just a cop-out. The only reason other armies have so many units is because they sat down and thought them up, that's all they have to do with SoB.

It's also true that a lot of the SoB units share a similar power armour look, much like Marines, so the possibility of dual kits is quite extensive. If you take the four existing infantry types (SoB, Seraphim, Repentia and the other one...) and give them all a new dual build you double the infantry right there. I don't know if GW could still bring the Repressor over from FW but that's a possible vehicle kit. SoB on bikes is another, some kind of penitent engine dual kit walker etc. This is all just basic, easy stuff.

[Mr Mystery]

Well, they went from 2 model types (Infantry and Seraphim) to a far more fleshed out force (comparatively speaking) with Witch Hunters, where they gained Repentia, Dakkatankthing and Penitent Engines..... And on the way to that, they lost Frataris Militia, who kind of became Redemptionists (with filthy exterminators) who went in the end (little point when you could just ally Guard Conscripts into your force).

So I reckon we'll see even more growth when their book hits, and possibly Imperial Cultists.....Which is a good point actually.....CSM could do with a multi part cultist box, but why bother, when you can just make them Loyalist ones for forthcoming SoB, and let people convert them up (speculation, not rumour. SPECULATION. not rumour)

[Chris*ta]

I certainly think they could make them into an entire Codex, but they could've done that with Black Templars, they deserve their own Codex more than any other Chapter, except maybe Space Wolves. The only reason they didn't, as far as I can see, is that they're Second Founding. And the perennial (and self-fulfilling) "they're not popular enough" argument. Off topic: this is among the more frustrating things about the new SM Codex for me, except for the inclusion of Hawk Lords and Scythes of the Emperor as UM Successors :(

Grey Knights got their own Codex, and they could easily get away with being a chunk of the Inquistion/OMs Codex -- they don't have that many choices, and they certainly don't have that many kits.

I'm thinking that Sisters should get a similar number of units (and probably more kits, as I discussed before) as the GKs. If the Codex was 176 pages (like the new SM one) they could easily end up with 40 or so pages just to themselves, which wouldn't be bad, compared to what they've had in the past.

I think part of what upsets you is making them subordinate to the Inquisition, but the idea is just having a Codex that allows you to ally the 3 Ordines and the Inquisition freely, without using the Allies table, and not commenting on who is subordinate to whom. I also find it weird that Inquisitors only take units from their own Ordo, and this fixes that problem.

[eldargal]

To be frank they could do all Space Marines in one book if they wanted to. Black Templar aren't really comparable because when you come to the crux of it they were different coloured Marines in a game already 40% Marine. What did the game lose by losing a BT codex? Nothing, they are still playable in C:SM and Marines remain 40% of the army roster. SoB are an entirely different faction, lose them and you lose even more variety from the game which is no good thing.

The problem I have with the Inquisition thing is that the SoB don't belong with them. They were lumped in in a very hamfisted way and it never really made sense. They aren't part of the Inquisition anymore than a Space Marine chapter is. They may work together but the Inquisition work with any and all of the armed forces of the IoM. GK are part of the Inquisition, if thy get their own own codex there is really no justification for SoB not too, and if they get folded into an Inquisition codex then SoB should really get their codex slot.

[SotonShades]

I can understand where the idea comes from, but I don't think it would ever happen. From the conversations I have had with the Design Studio over the years, they really want to do Sister. They really want them to have their own codex and model line. The problem is that no one has any ideas as to how to make them work so they represent the fluff and aren't simply female space marines or marginally better guardsmen. It why DE waited so long for their codex update rather than being folded in to regular eldar.

The other reason is that, aside from converting the metals/finecasts in to plastic, none of the artists or miniatures sculptors really know how to redo the models. We hobbyists are a fickle bunch, and as much as we want better models, we don't want them to change from the established aesthetic too much. Maybe if BL authors or some of the GW staff could come up with more background to cover more units, they could do some new styles and exciting kits, but until then, they haven't thought of idea for new models to drive the sales of the line (ala the new centurians for SM)

[Mr Mystery]

My concept for them....

Planetary based, rather than access to their own fleet (which if memory serves is pretty much the 2nd Ed background).

Separate from the Arbites and the Planetary Defence Force. Much like Marines, they choose whether or not they get involved. But being religious nutters, they tend to get involved anyways.

So existing Sister's stuff is in (duh). Bulked up by Imperial Cultists (locals, identical to Chaos Cultists in terms of stuff what they can have. Replace Marks with some kind of creed bonus).

Beyond that it's a toughy! But very much in favour of Imperial Cultists!

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Pure speculation on my part but :

Most of their infantry types could be done in one plastic kit, sort of similar to the grey knights PA kit. That could cover nearly all of their footsoldeirs in one go.

The seraphim could be done as a secondary kit, with a 2nd and new unit to make it a duel kit.

All the tanks could arguably be put into a 3rd kit.

Penitent engine could be done as a 4th kit, and I expect they'd make it a duel kit with another variant.

That would pretty much cover the vast majority of their range, while even adding a few new things. I suppose if they did a plastic release as big as the recent SM release or initial Dark Eldar (which is what they should do IMO), you could probably put Repentia in plastic with a new unit, as well as giving them a much needed flier.

[SotonShades]

that is exactly the problem though; 4, maybe 5 kits, if they redo the entire line. Couple of character clam packs as well. Is there any other range (not counting chapter of SM, because they all use the standard SM models as well) that is so small?

[eldargal]

4-5 kits, 8-10 units all in a first wave isn't bad. Assuming 6-7 plastic kit released don't start appearing as per the Dark Elf rumours.

[ElectricPaladin]

For that matter - assuming the drastic rewrite we all assume - it's not hard to imagine how they could fit more kits in there.

Maybe dominions (scout Sisters) wear carapace armor a la scouts and pathfinders? Boom, that's another kit. Maybe there are two kinds of close combat sisters, the crazed half-naked repentia and a clothed, highly skilled, elite close combat squad. Boom, another kit, or a multikit option with the repentia if they're similar enough.

And so on.

[DrBored]

There's a lot they could do with Sisters, and I do believe that they will have their own Codex, either near the end of 6th edition or shortly thereafter. When all the other Codices are done up in hardback and Sisters is the only force with a White Dwarf, then they'll probably get their update.

The unfortunate part is that, like many aspects of a company that are ignored, GW now has no ACTUAL data to support the popularity of the Sisters of Battle. Giving them their update constitutes a large business risk. Since the explosive success of Dark Eldar, they have more info on what happens when an army gets totally revamped, thankfully. The other difficulty is that they are really cutting back on their Finecast releases, which makes redoing Special Characters difficult. If they want Finecast phased out by 2016, they need to stop releasing new Finecast models yesterday, which honestly seems to be what's happening. Once they can create new Special Characters, named ones, in plastic, then they'll really be on their way.

Finally, there's the expense of making new molds. Each mold is incredibly expensive to make, far more than you'd think for the mass-production necessary to satisfy all the 40k and fantasy players. To make one or two new kits is no sweat with a new release, but a whole new range of models to refresh a codex entirely? That's even MORE expense on top of the risky investment mentioned above.

It's no surprise that the rumors of Sisters of Battle are few and far between, and I'm sure many of the designers and authors would love to write Sisters of Battle back in, but the reality of the matter is that the designers aren't the ones determining the release of the different products.

Like I said, I do believe that Sisters of Battle will eventually get their own Codex. After all, let's look at the trend going forward...

GW just released their biggest Cash Cow: Space Marines. More Space Marines are sold than the rest of the Fantasy line combined.
The rumors point to Fantasy 9th edition releasing next year. A new edition is another great form of cash, since people *need* to get the new edition to play it, so they sell plenty of rulebooks, lots of different boxed sets, and new players are encouraged more than ever to get into the game. If 9th edition goes well, (and all signs point to YES, thanks to many of the Army Books being quite popular), then GW will have even more revenue that they can put into new projects.
The next couple of releases are rumored to be Tyranids, followed by Imperial Guard and Orks. These aren't random factions, these are whole huge armies that fill out a huge chunk of the 40k Lore, and they're also horde armies.. which means you need to buy more to get the full points value of an army. With the rules for Allies and Supplements promoting people to buy more, these horde armies will produce even *more* cash for GW.

All of these together point at good revenue for GW, if all goes well. Enough, perhaps, to devote to some riskier projects, like Sisters of Battle...

Just remember, not everything can be wishlisting. GW is a business after all, so looking at their releases from a business perspective helps identify patterns that we can predict for the future.

As an aside, I would sell just about my entire digestive tract and eat from a juice bottle in order to afford an entire Apocalypse formation of plastic Sisters of Battle, and I'd convert every single one of them to Slaanesh and have the most fun that I've ever had in 40k. All they gotta do is release these freaking girls!

[DWest]

4-5 kits, 8-10 units all in a first wave isn't bad. Assuming 6-7 plastic kit released don't start appearing as per the Dark Elf rumours.
I could also see them getting the Valkyrie/Vendetta for a flyer -- it would be reasonable that they use some standard imperial gear, they also use Rhinos for transport, and also be a great chance to update the Valk to have lascannons in the box. We know they already use Rhinos for transport, so they're not averse to mooching off the standard menu of mechanicum products when it fits well enough. Plus Valks look really good in black and red.

[magickbk]

SoB will get redone in a big way, in a similar manner to what Grey Knights received. JJ has said it, and Jes Goodwin likes the Sisters, which carries a lot of weight at the studio also.

The best Sisters release one could imagine would feature some dual purpose kits, as such:
Plastic Canoness
Plastic Squad Celestians/Retributors
Plastic Squad Sisters/Dominions
Plastic Squad Seraphim/New Unit
Plastic Kit Immolator/New variant (update needed?)
Plastic Kit Exorcist/New Tank (this could get rolled into the Immolator, but one would assume different price points)
Plastic Kit New/Big Thing

This would put the total new sprues for the release at roughly the same as Marines, Dark Eldar, Dark Angels, etc and expand them to a full army.

As for the Black Templar argument, I suspect that had more to do with GW learning they couldn't really protect that iconography as part of the aftermath of the Chapterhouse case. Why release a book and army that you just were unable to protect the IP for in court?

[ElectricPaladin]

I could also see them getting the Valkyrie/Vendetta for a flyer -- it would be reasonable that they use some standard imperial gear, they also use Rhinos for transport, and also be a great chance to update the Valk to have lascannons in the box. We know they already use Rhinos for transport, so they're not averse to mooching off the standard menu of mechanicum products when it fits well enough. Plus Valks look really good in black and red.

I can see the theory, but I think Sisters will get their own flyer. I do suspect that it will operate a lot like a Valkyrie or Vendetta, though.

[Digitarii]

I remember seeing something about how they want to do plastic sisters, but they were having trouble with the robes and keeping the same esthetic in the plastic (probably the undercuts). I'm hoping that with what I'm seeing in the new Sternguard kits that they might be able to carry that over to the sisters.

[DarkLink]

Knowing the Sister's luck, they'll probably get new overpriced kits right after a pricing bubble bursts and no one will buy them. But they will get done... Eventually.

[Vangrail]

My friend was running his sisters as grey knight henchmen power armor and boltguns. His cannoness (coteaz) is pretty cool sister with a thunder hammer.

[DWest]

As for the Black Templar argument, I suspect that had more to do with GW learning they couldn't really protect that iconography as part of the aftermath of the Chapterhouse case. Why release a book and army that you just were unable to protect the IP for in court?
Slightly terrifying thought in regards to that, as the Sisters use the fleur-de-lis as their icon, which is another old symbol that can't be trademarked, and is already prominently in use in such works as the Saints' Row series of videogames, which is probably not the association GW wants people making when they thing of 40k, although it might make a good starting point for a Slanneshi warband.

[ElectricPaladin]

Slightly terrifying thought in regards to that, as the Sisters use the fleur-de-lis as their icon, which is another old symbol that can't be trademarked, and is already prominently in use in such works as the Saints' Row series of videogames, which is probably not the association GW wants people making when they thing of 40k, although it might make a good starting point for a Slanneshi warband.

Unless there is a quote I'm unaware if, I think we are all jumping to a lot of conclusions when we assume that the Black Templars got folded into the Space Marines codex solely - or even primarily - because GW decided they couldn't protect their IP.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Unless there is a quote I'm unaware if, I think we are all jumping to a lot of conclusions when we assume that the Black Templars got folded into the Space Marines codex solely - or even primarily - because GW decided they couldn't protect their IP.Yeah, considering that the Ultramarines also have a pretty much unprotectable symbol! (Unless flipping Omega upside down makes it legally protectable :P).

Thinking about it, Repentia and Frateris Militia could make a neat dual kit. Have heavily robed legs that are used for both, and different torsos (Frateris get wider shoulders for more masculine proportions) and arms for each choice.

[chicop76]

Well the fleur de lis is a symbol of New Orleans and used by the Saints. I think tghe symbol is safe since it would be akin to using the infanity symbol or greek letters.

Anyway I seriously doubt that sisters/ witch hunters would be folded into a guard codex. It males 0 sense to do so., yes tme to time you have guardsmen in sister armies and you have the storm troopers. Even so the equipment, style , etc is far to differnet to do that.

It's like folding guard into tau if Tau still used human aux as a reason to do so. Heck merging dark eldar with eldar would make more sense.

Either they will give sisters the old blood angel treatment and let them linger in white dwarf hell, or

They instead of a Grey Knight and Sister Book they actualy do an Inquisition book, which makes sense. Sisters and Grey Knights can easily be used as suppliments for the book.

Both grey knights and sisters if combined would have around the same amount of options as most books do, even if you add other Inquisitorial models not even being used.

[Learn2Eel]

Though the point has probably already been made, I feel I should make it again; the reason Sisters of Battle don't sell well is exclusively due to GW's lack of support for them. I'm sure GW realize that revamping them would lead to a massive surge in sales.

[Chris*ta]

I could also see them getting the Valkyrie/Vendetta for a flyer -- it would be reasonable that they use some standard imperial gear, they also use Rhinos for transport, and also be a great chance to update the Valk to have lascannons in the box. We know they already use Rhinos for transport, so they're not averse to mooching off the standard menu of mechanicum products when it fits well enough. Plus Valks look really good in black and red.

I dunno, their tanks are all based on the (SM) Rhino, so I feel it'd be more likely they'd get a Marine flyer, but it still doesn't feel right to me.


As for the Black Templar argument, I suspect that had more to do with GW learning they couldn't really protect that iconography as part of the aftermath of the Chapterhouse case. Why release a book and army that you just were unable to protect the IP for in court?

I doubt it. Apart from anything, the decision on the Black Templars was probably made long before the results of the court case were finalised. Actually, couldn't GW still appeal?

Also, I doubt GW would make decisions based on this, as it's not really a threat to their profits. They really had to bring the case against Chapterhouse because they were directly threatening GW's trademarks/copyrights.

Probaly best to limit discussion of the court case in this thread, come to think of it ...

[Kirsten]

I doubt it. Apart from anything, the decision on the Black Templars was probably made long before the results of the court case were finalised. Actually, couldn't GW still appeal?

Also, I doubt GW would make decisions based on this, as it's not really a threat to their profits. They really had to bring the case against Chapterhouse because they were directly threatening GW's trademarks/copyrights.

exactly, both of these things. absolutely zero chance that chapterhouse has anything at all to do with black templars.

[Anchorbine]

Just out of curiosity, if you had a warehouse full of metal sisters, would you come out and say they were done, or would you simply not say anything and try to sell out of them? They might sell out as collector's items if you announced their demise, but as many have stated, it might be bad press. Let me offer an alternative that likely won't happen, but might work. What if Forgeworld picked up the line?

[eldargal]

How do you know they have a warehouse full of metal sisters? Not to mention they could melt the metal down and sell it probably for more than they paid for it if they had that much.

[daboarder]

that sorta depends ont eh alloy and how its been mixed, its not that easy to separate alloys once they've been mixed, that being said there are still a number of other companies out their using similar metal so it wouldnt be too hard for them to offload.

[eldargal]

Well people used to say they melted down metal miscasts and re-used it so I'm going by that.

[daboarder]

yeah thats fine, they're re using the same mix in that instance, it's when they try to sell it, they either have spend a lot of money getting the metals separated (unlikely) Or find someone who wants and alloy with that same mixture, and remeber due to electrolysis mixing metals isn't as easy as it seems.

[Arkhan Land]

melting down miscasts minutes after casting isnt impossible, most guides tell you to save your flashes and pour channels and throw em back in the pan, but once the metal has sat and changed temperatures for longer periods of time problems develop with precise alloys, I think its more likely they can continue to make the stuff with minimal stock and can keep making them as needed if they get low, so they'll run it out the way specialist games are being done