1500 pt space marines list - need feedback

[Screaming Flayers]

here is a list a friend an i used in a 750 per side team tournament. 2 hqs and 4 troops were mandatory.

i'd like to know if the list blows (keep in mind the restrictions) or if the list was not the problem, our tactics were.

we got blown out of the tournament and had a lot of trouble with tough hqs.

just let me have it

[Katharon]

First of all, you need to remove all the point costs. You can tell us total points, but I believe its against the forum rules and some scary-stupid copy-right rules to post the individual point costs.

Second, can you not separate out those lists? Just put in headers like:

HQs

Librarian w/ Terminator Armor [Total Points]

Troops

Tactical Squad # 1 w/ lascannon, plasma gun, power axe, Rhino [Total points]


------------

Doing that keeps it a lot cleaner. Also, you should specify which was your 750 list and which was your friend's list; or whether or not you both just took identical lists. Copy-Pasting from army builder isn't exactly...I dunno, cool? or something like that. No bueno, in other languages.

[DarkLink]

It's not really a hard rule, for practical reasons, to never post point values. As long as you're not photocopying pages from the codex, you're probably ok.

But, yes, that format is way too hard to read. I despite Army Builder. It makes it impossible for me to tell what is actually in the unit. The list should look more like this, for readability's sake:




HQ
Librarian, Terminator armor, Epistolary

Librarian, Terminator armor

Troops:
10 Tactical Marines, Plasma, Lascannon
1 Rhino

5 Tactical Marines
Razorback, Las/Plas

5 Tactical Marines
Razorback, Las/Plas

5 Tactical Marines

Fast Attack
1 Land Speeder, Assault Cannon

1 Land Speeder, Heavy Bolter

Heavy Support
5 Devestators, 4 Missile Launchers

Predator, TL Autocannon, Heavy Bolters

5 Devestators, 4 Missile Launchers


Throw in points costs as needed.



Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 240 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 167 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Plasma gun 10 + Lascannon 10 + Sergeant 41
1 Sergeant, 38 pts = (base cost 23) + Power Axe x1 15
1 Rhino, 35 pts

There are several problems with this format. For one, how many models are in the unit? 11? No, you can't take 11 Tactical Marines. 9? No. 9+1? Ok, so I have to do math now. No where does it tell me how many models are in the actual unit. Because, no, the Razorback is not part of the unit. It's a separate unit. Yes, it's dedicated, but all you need to do is list them next to each other and I can figure that out on my own.

There's a lot of redundant information there that I don't give a damn about. It doesn't matter how much the Sergeant costs. It doesn't matter how much each Tac Marine costs (but Armybuilder feels the need to tell you this all twice). It lists the unit as a Tactical Squad twice, for some reason. Thank you, I figured out it was a unit of Tactical Marines the first time you mentioned it. And, is there a Sergeant in there? I wasn't sure, it only states there's one twice, so I wasn't sure. Or, wait, are there two Sergeants? Maybe that's why it says there are 11 models in the squad... I'm confused now.

Yeah, Armybuilder is terrible.

Even if the tournament requires you to show how many points are in each unit, there's still too much detail, and it's presented in such a terrible format that it hides all the information that you actually need to see. It should look more like this, at the most:

10 Tactical Squad (170), Sergeant w/ Power Axe (15), Plasma Gun (10), Lascannon (10) - 240
Rhino (35)

That way I can still check the math (10 Marines with Sergeant is 170, check, Axe is 15, check, Plasma gun is 10, check, lascannon is 10, check, Rhino is 35, check, ok, we're good).

So, yeah, screw Armybuilder. Though it's not the worst list builder out there, I'll admit.

[Dave Mcturk]

i play against marine armies... so from my pov... at 1500 pts your army list was too slow and much as you may like speeder / predators etc below 1750 pts it reduces the army size [and therefore firepower] and gives quick kills...

all marine armies take quality for granted [they are marines !]

but get your ranged firepower right as cheap as possible and then bulk up... think you would do better ?... but so much in comps depends on the terrain set up method and scenarios ...

with tough enemy hq's you really need to fry them before they get in !

[Aegwymourn]

I agree with Katharon and Darklink that your list is harder to read than it needs to be. Anywho, on to what I actually think of the list!

You have basically nothing that I would consider "scary" to a top tier list these days. All your shooting boils down to a handful of Razorbacks, which are silly easy to kill now, and some ML devastators which are over-priced (in the standard marine codex). The predator these days is "meh" it can do a bit of damage to troops, but nothing game winning on its own.

What I don't see is any sort of skyfire (even a quadgun helps), or reliable twin-linking. Enough shooting to hurt the new big scaries (Riptides and FMC). Enough durability to stay on the board (razorbacks and power armour marines are basically canned tuna waiting to be opened and devoured).

Regular space marines are in a weird position right now and are basically waiting for the new codex to bump their power level accordingly.

[Screaming Flayers]

i play against marine armies... so from my pov... at 1500 pts your army list was too slow and much as you may like speeder / predators etc below 1750 pts it reduces the army size [and therefore firepower] and gives quick kills...

all marine armies take quality for granted [they are marines !]

but get your ranged firepower right as cheap as possible and then bulk up... think you would do better ?... but so much in comps depends on the terrain set up method and scenarios ...

with tough enemy hq's you really need to fry them before they get in !

yes, thank you

the land speeder and predator came from my partners list. i dont think they did much, he was supposed to take care of troops and i was supposed to take care of armor.

as far as the hqs we tried but it was usually close but no cigar, meaning 2-3 wounds on the daemon prince of nurgle but not enough to kill. 3 wounds on typhon but no kill before he got loose. close gets you nothing.

thanks for the feedback, i appreciate it. trying to find where the error was.

[Screaming Flayers]

First of all, you need to remove all the point costs. You can tell us total points, but I believe its against the forum rules and some scary-stupid copy-right rules to post the individual point costs.

Second, can you not separate out those lists? Just put in headers like:

HQs

Librarian w/ Terminator Armor [Total Points]

Troops

Tactical Squad # 1 w/ lascannon, plasma gun, power axe, Rhino [Total points]


------------

Doing that keeps it a lot cleaner. Also, you should specify which was your 750 list and which was your friend's list; or whether or not you both just took identical lists. Copy-Pasting from army builder isn't exactly...I dunno, cool? or something like that. No bueno, in other languages.

ok here you go

me

hq
librarian in terminator armor

troop
4 man tac with sgt
razorback with las plas

4 man tac with sgt
razorback with las plas

heavy
4 man dev with 4 ml and sgt
4 man dev with 4 ml and sgt

partner

hq
epistolary in terminator armor

troop
10 man tac squad in rhino w plasma and lascannon
4 man tac w sgt

fast
1 land speeder w assault cannon and hvy bolter
1 land speeder w 2 hvy bolter

heavy
1 predator w 2 hb and autocannon

[Katharon]

Your list I don't see too many problems with. With that setup it is clear that you are the one that is going to be the firebase, performing the duties of taking down any vehicles or scary things. Even without any skyfire weapons, that is still a solid list.

Your partner's, however, kind of blows. An epistolary is a bit of a wasted upgrade for such low point battles. He should have dropped the Razorback with the las-plas; you already have 2 in your own list, he didn't need one. Also, land speeders are really, really fragile -- even with their jink save. Unless you are DA or else a regular SM fielding multiple squads of them, you shouldn't have them on the field. They are just a waste of points that will not pay back their points unless you are playing some really incompetent and retarded opponents.

His army should have looked something like this:

HQ

Librarian w/ no upgrades [100 Points]

Troops

2 x Tactical Squads w/ flamers & heavy bolters, 2 x Rhino transports

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad (as many as can be fit in the squad)


His job should have been to be into close combat as fast as possible, even with his tactical squads. Adding in a T/SH Terminator squad for deep striking would have given him a threat multiplier and his two Rhinos charging up one flank would have driven away focus from your army -- and more time for your Devastator squads to dish out some damage alongside the Razorbacks.

[Screaming Flayers]

thanks Katharon

[Katharon]

No problem. And yeah, he could have fielded a Librarian, two tactical squads in rhinos, and a six-man Terminator assault squad. Not bad for 750 points.