How They See Us.

[YorkNecromancer]

So somewhat bizarrely, I've been browsing Mumsnet, and come across these two threads:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/teenagers/a1595971-Tell-me-all-about-Warhammer
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1349374-to-think-that-8-is-too-young-to-start-playing-Warhammer

The first one got me thinking: why is there no well-written, easy-to-follow document created by us fans, not for newbies to the game, but for family members like the ones in this thread? The ones who have no interest in the games, don't get them, aren't interested in getting them, but suspect that the games might be good for their children.

Could we not write up a simple, fan-perspective piece that people could then refer family members to? Not just stuff like How To Play, but realistic things - how much will it cost (RRP and eBay price breakdowns)? Will my child be bullied because of it? What skills does it teach, and why those skills? What are tournaments? I hear that the Imperium are space fascists and they fight Satanic demons; is this true, because that's worrying material to give to children? and so on.

All those concerns raised in the threads are pretty valid ones, and they're not ones I've seen GW address on their website, as they only write in their usual excessively hyperbolic way for the pre-existing fans.


Just seems like a good idea if there was some kind of link we could give these people that shows "Hi, we're not mad, and this is a positive hobby." Something friendly and cheerful, with pictures of people being nice and 'normal'. :)

[Mr Mystery]

I think the best advice there is to send them to their local GW. I know the hatemob might bray and beat their chests at that, but the staffers (used to be one) are really good at explaining what it's all about.

Plus, it enhances reading stamina, patience, mental mathematics, social skills, sportsmanship, all sorts of stuff which is nothing but a positive influence.

I've signed up on Mumsnet now, though both those threads are currently dead, so may not threadomance them. But given the main benefits, I think most parents would be happy for their kids to give it a bash. As much as any hobby, it's as expensive as you let it get.

[daboarder]

And here I thought the whole thing could be summed up as "plastic crack"

[Mr Mystery]

Yeah well that too of course!

It's surprisingly easy to sell it as a family activity. Painting is always therapeutic, and worth anyone's effort!

[Denzark]

Whilst I don't go to other 40K sites (unless for something very specific - I have no profiles), I am a denizen of the Army Rumour Service aka ARRSE. Those chaps loath Mumsnet as a bunch of shrieking harridan harpies. Their site is general scorned, particularly the sexual advice pieces (just google them unless that was what you were on there looking at Yorkie s******).

They are clearly loonies though - 'it is not particularly violent' - apart from the xenocide, chaos orgies and bayonetting whenever you can't get your chain axe in. 'It is good for socially awkward boys' - really, or is that actually where you find them?

Amusingly enough I think 8 is probably too young - if we still had a live heroquest or space crusade maybe not.



As to what they think of it/us, who cares? @*%! 'em in the ear.

[eldargal]

Mumsnet is just disgraceful. Misogynist religious conservatism with a thin veneer of civility.

[Psychosplodge]

I've never heard a good word said about mumsnet.
It apparently makes warseer look civilised...

[Wolfshade]

Ignoring the craziness that is Mumsnet, there is generally a problem with most groups when looked at from the outside.

[YorkNecromancer]

Yeah, Mumsnet isn't really the issue. More people who are never going to play, but support those who might.

I know my mum banned me from loads of stuff she knew nothing about because to her it just seemed wrong. I was banned from reading any kind of sci-fi or fantasy book for a two-year period because they were making me "too weird". All it was was I was scared of everyone and everything, and fiction was an escape, but I lacked the emotional vocabulary to express this to her at the time.

That's my suggestion - providing someone like that, who fears a thing they do not understand - with some context, so they do not percieve it as a threat.

"Normalising" us in other words.

[Nabterayl]

Also, some of those responses are actually quite useful things to remember, I think. Is 40K violent? Well ... yes and no. I think a lot of fans tend to say yes, because the story of the game involves body fluids being flash-boiled, faces being pulped, and guts being skewered, and that's only what a bog standard Guardsman does.

But when you're talking to a concerned parent, in many other ways the answer is no, because none of that stuff is shown. What you actually see are static pieces of plastic and resin being moved around a table or floor. Contrast that with an M-rated videogame and it's totally valid to say that 40K is not "violent" (i.e., does not show violent imagery) at all. In most videogames, you perceive the violence and imagine the context. In 40K, you imagine both the violence and the context. Worth remembering when talking to concerned outsiders.

[Denzark]

I've got to say Nabby, this is an Obi-Wan Kenobi 'from a certain point of view'. Your argument tinges on describing an activity where you may just roll dice to see who wins, no minis needed.

I don't think you can push the background away. Neither do I thing you should. There is such a thing as too young. So on that basis no need to soft soap little timmah's mum.

'Yes Madam, see that chap with that weapon? Its a chain axe. If I roll a 4, little Timmah needs to roll a 3 or I have buried it in the head of his favourite character. No madam, there is not a roll for whether or not I clean the brains off my armour and in fact if my character is left in charge of the battle field, he is going to take the heads of all Timmah's men, be they injured, prisoner, or dead, hack them off and sacrifice them to a God of Murder who lives in space with his buddy's the God of black magic, the God of pestilence who is like ebola aids and gonorrhoea rolled into one, oh yes and the God of orgies who the God of Murder hates for being a hermaphrodite which he thinks is quite effete and not de rigeur at all.'

[Nabterayl]

I don't think you can push the background away; nobody would play it if they did. But you can choose which parts of the background you emphasize; everybody does that. Some people get all hot and bothered if you describe the <insert your favorite space marine chapter here> as slavers/human traffickers. I get bothered if you don't, but when I tell an eight year old about space marines, that's not the part I'm going to emphasize. Probably going to leave that off entirely.

The same thing goes with the gore, which is what people really mean by violence. I started playing wargames when I was six. I knew that we were playing a game about weapons, but my dad didn't go out of his way to describe the effects of white phosphorous on unprotected skin, or how putting a comparatively tiny shell through a tank can kill every man inside, or what actually happens to your bodily cavities when you detonate high explosives inside an enclosed space. Yes, there is such a thing as too young for 40K, but you can always play a game about killing people and still have age-appropriate violence so long as the violence is imaginary. And in 40K, all the violence is imaginary.

[YorkNecromancer]

Yes, there is such a thing as too young for 40K, but you can always play a game about killing people and still have age-appropriate violence so long as the violence is imaginary. And in 40K, all the violence is imaginary.

One of my favourite quotes from noted horror director David Cronenberg went along the following lines:

Films aren't real; they're fantasy. Everyone knows that. If you can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy, you are suffering from severe psychosis. The issue isn't that cinema has made you violent. It is that you are a psychotic.

I do think there is such a thing as too young when it comes to 40K; let's be fair, the background taken at face value is just horribly, horribly violent. I think if we are honest, that's why we all like it. The unadulterated GRIMDARK is an antidote to the usual anodyne star wars/star trek/space opera where the face fights the heel.

Doesn't mean it's appropriate for little kids. I'm not sure what age I would say was the right sort of minimum; probably around ten or eleven, because that's when I started, but that seems a matter for parents, rather than anyone else, to decide.

[Nabterayl]

Doesn't mean it's appropriate for little kids. I'm not sure what age I would say was the right sort of minimum; probably around ten or eleven, because that's when I started, but that seems a matter for parents, rather than anyone else, to decide.
For sure. And while I can't speak to mumsnet specifically, I do think it's perfectly reasonable for a parent to try to get the data they need to make an informed decision. Sure, maybe the best way to do that is for the parent to become a hardcore fan, but few parents can invest that much time in something their kid might or might not end up doing. So I totally agree with you that it's worth thinking about what makes up 40K, and where you do and don't emphasize. To take it out of the realm of violence, suppose a concerned Christian parent worries about the prevalence of daemons and daemonic power in this game. To Denzark's point, you can't just strip that out of the product entirely - a 40K without Chaos is not 40K. But you can explain that (i) the daemons in question, despite the name, are absolutely nothing like the demons of Christian theology, and (ii) there are lots of armies in 40K that have nothing to do with daemons or even the Dark Gods. You can play an army aligned with the Dark Gods, opposed to them, or even an army for whom the moral questions raised by the Dark Gods aren't even on the radar. That's a much more constructive answer than, "Well, sir or ma'am, in this game, there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods."