Dreadnought wishes

[Tepogue]

Way back when I was a new player. I feel in love with Dreadnoughts. Now this was back in 1991. So it was 2nd edition rules. I included a dreadnought in every army. Over the editions since then, the dreadnought has been battered and reduced in power and resilience.

Is there a way to bring back dreadnought? And just to be specific, I'm look at all dreadnoughts, SM, Ork, Chaos (Hellbrute - hate that name) The Wraithlord has been redone as a creature and perhaps this is the best path.

To be honest when I saw the playtest rules for the Mortis Contemptor I was happy. The ability to equip 2 ranged weapons really stood out and I almost bought a FW comtemptor just because of this. However it appears the Mortis has disappeared. (Please correct me if this is wrong)

So anyway just throwing ideas out for improving Dreads again:

Front armour 13: Dreads should not get killed by all the S6 spam that's popular right now

WS 5 and/or BS 5: Dreads should be veterans and for the most part a 1 point increase in WS/BS only affects their damage output slightly.

Hull Points 4: Dreads should be close to heavy tanks, I realize FA 13 and HP 4 is probably too much, probably one or the other.

Missile Launcher - looking at the 2nd edition dreadnought missile launcher they used sustained fire. I would love to see missile launchers on dreads upgraded to the current cyclone missile launcher rules.

Alternative:

Change all the dreads to Monstrous Creatures. Right now it's almost impossible to one shot a Wraithlord, Talos, etc. I would like to see all dreads changed to MCs just to give them more survivability.

[Mr Mystery]

For me, I'd like to see the weapons go back to being souped up versions of the normal ones.

Not only does this give Dreadnoughts a little extra punch, but also has the cool background of the weapons being just as old and Relic like as the chassis itself. Superior examples of their art now all but lost to humanity at large. Whether this is increased range, accuracy, vehicle damage re-rolls, increased rate of fire, I dunno. But I feel they need to be spangly!

[Xarga]

Personally i think making walkers into MC's just doesn't feel right, even if MC's have the upper hand in this edition. As for making them more durable i'm not sure how they would go about it.

AV13 just doesn't seem right on a dread (even though i wouldn't complain if they were), they just don't look armored enough to be 13 in my opinion. As for an extra hull point, that could work potentially but still doesn't prevent it being one shotted by a lucky shot. An invulnerable save (maybe a 5+ ?) could help with that perhaps, though i don't know how that would work fluff wise.

Though not so much on the durability end of things I've personally always though dreadnoughts should have some kind of chance to negate crew shaken/stunned due to them being wired directly into the thing.

As for WS5/BS5 that seems to be trait of the venerable dreads due to how old they are, even 1st company veterans and terminators arn't WS5/BS5 so i don't think standard dreadnoughts should be either.

I think their missile launcher functioning like a cyclone would be nice though, obviously it would have to go up in price accordingly though.

One thing i would like to add, i personally think dreads should have 3 attacks. They just get bogged down in CC after the charge is over and are only really any good at assaulting vehicles or small units.

[Tyrendian]

Way back when I was a new player. I feel in love with Dreadnoughts. Now this was back in 1991. So it was 2nd edition rules. I included a dreadnought in every army. Over the editions since then, the dreadnought has been battered and reduced in power and resilience.

Is there a way to bring back dreadnought? And just to be specific, I'm look at all dreadnoughts, SM, Ork, Chaos (Hellbrute - hate that name) The Wraithlord has been redone as a creature and perhaps this is the best path.

To be honest when I saw the playtest rules for the Mortis Contemptor I was happy. The ability to equip 2 ranged weapons really stood out and I almost bought a FW comtemptor just because of this. However it appears the Mortis has disappeared. (Please correct me if this is wrong)

So anyway just throwing ideas out for improving Dreads again:

Front armour 13: Dreads should not get killed by all the S6 spam that's popular right now

WS 5 and/or BS 5: Dreads should be veterans and for the most part a 1 point increase in WS/BS only affects their damage output slightly.

Hull Points 4: Dreads should be close to heavy tanks, I realize FA 13 and HP 4 is probably too much, probably one or the other.

Missile Launcher - looking at the 2nd edition dreadnought missile launcher they used sustained fire. I would love to see missile launchers on dreads upgraded to the current cyclone missile launcher rules.

Alternative:

Change all the dreads to Monstrous Creatures. Right now it's almost impossible to one shot a Wraithlord, Talos, etc. I would like to see all dreads changed to MCs just to give them more survivability.

the Mortis is still there and kicking... where did you get the idea it wasn't? it just lost BS5 (at least the contemporary version - the one in 30k will keep that according to ForgeWorld)

And basically, you seem to just want to have regular Dreads upgraded to Contemptors - almost everything you guys mentionen as wishing for is a fact for Contemptors (AV13, an Invuln, WS/BS5 and better weapons)... So why do you not just play Contemptors? They arguably even look better... :)
Cyclone Missile Launchers for normal Dreads should really be a thing though... I mean just look at the pods, those have to have a better rate of fire than a single marine-portable tube...
4HP seems completely wrong to me though... that's reserved for Land Raiders and Monoliths...

[DarkLink]

For the points they pay, Land Raiders and Monoliths should be HP5. Medium-heavy tanks, like Predators and Leman Russes, should be 4, light-medium vehicles like Rhinos should be 3, and then light vehicles like Land Speeders and War Walkers should be 2. I think there should be a bit more differentiation than there currently is.

[SotonShades]

4HP seems completely wrong to me though... that's reserved for Land Raiders and Monoliths...

I dunno, I quite like the idea of making use of the hull points as a game mechanic, rather than just as a secondary abstract representation of how big a vehicle is. In a similar vein to being able to make non-vehicles harder to kill with either more wounds or higher toughness, some low AV/high HP vehicles could be really interesting (and vica versa). Dreadnoughts in particular (though I doubt they'd be too big a variation from the Hellbrute) could have a higher HP, representing the pilot literally being enmeshed within the circuitry and able to push the physical mechanism far beyond their normal limits, as well as being really solidly built, if not highly armoured.

Similarly, Higher AV, Low HP vehicles could represent crew who don't trust their vehicle to stand up to a repetitive volley of fire (guard or grots perhaps?) rather than the vehicle taking actual damage.


On the original topic though; I generally think Dreadnoughts aren't too bad (I have 6 regular ones and a mortis contemptor). I certainly agree that their missile launcher option is a bit lacking for the points, especially when you compare it to riflemen variants (ESPECIALLY especially GK psyriflemen...). Upgrading them to a cyclone would make sense to me. WS/BS increase? They may be heroes of the chapter they serve, but they are still in a clunky robot body, rather than a genehanced physical body they grew. It would also neuter the point of venerable dreads.

Speaking of whom, they are deffinitely not worth their 60 point additional charge at the moment. They are far too vulnerable to glances to mark them out about regular dreads. Maybe if both were 4HP that wouldn't be the case, but still. Maybe a 6+ save every time they lose a hull point (but still taking damage from Penetrating hits and forcing to reroll) would add a little edge back to them?


I don't expect that any of this will ever happen though. Then again, I never thought GW would bring the cost of SMs down from 15 points when I started out in the hobby and felt they were a little over costed. If the current rumours prove true, maybe we will see these changed to dreads. We might just have to wait a decade and a half...

[UltraBlood]

I know as a Blood Angel player I would like to see them do something with the dreadnoughts to make them a bit more survivable. I would like to see them be able to assault the round they drop pod in without having to have the Forgeworld drop pod (can't remember the name at the moment).

[Xarga]

Speaking of whom, they are definitely not worth their 60 point additional charge at the moment.

In 6th edition Codex: Dark Angels, venerable's are a 25pts upgrade to normal dreads. Seeing as rumored allot of the prices in the new Codex: Space Marines are coming down to Dark Angel prices, i fully expect it to be the same soon.

[Mr Mystery]

I know as a Blood Angel player I would like to see them do something with the dreadnoughts to make them a bit more survivable. I would like to see them be able to assault the round they drop pod in without having to have the Forgeworld drop pod (can't remember the name at the moment).

And that would make them far too hard. Drop Pod in, and then wade straight into combat against a unit that stands little to no chance of felling it, and boom, that single Dreadnought has too much free reign. Add in this would likely lead to spam....

[DarkLink]

Far from making Dreadnoughts too good, it might make them actually useable. Maybe. Dreadnoughts, with very few specific exceptions, suck. They need a buff, but GW has a terrible track record with units that have been established a long time.

[Vangrail]

I use two mortis contemptor dreads personally and i love them. Plus i like how mine look more because mine have a normal dread torso and rest is contemptor. To me it fits better bc marine stuff is blocky and i just love the sarcophagus look.

[Tepogue]

Thanks all for responding. To address a few points. Looking at my 2nd Ed Space Marine Codex, Dreads were

WS 6, BS 6 (+1 due to all marine weapons having targetters) I know different edition affects stats. Moving the dread up to a 5 in WS under the current edition would only affect WS 2 models ability to hit it. (are there any WS 1?) And the dread would move from 4+ down to 3+ to hit a majority of the models in the game. But they are supposed to be the best of the best. Anyways. . .

I wish I had a 2nd Ed datafax for the vehicles. For example a SM Whirlwind is armor 20 on the hull for front/sides. I know dreads were higher than that. I remember only fearing multimeltas with the 1d6+2d12+8 armor penetration rolls. Bouncy missiles AKA Krak missiles never hurt Dreadnoughts.

Nice to hear the Mort Comptor is not gone. Are it's rule 40k approved or just Apoc only? And are they in the newest Apoc book or somewhere else?

[Siris Le Osiris]

Wraithlords were only armour 18 all around except the head which was 22 in 2nd
Which was the same as a warwalker.

[daboarder]

Whatever is don'e to dreadnoughts needs to be done to hellbrutes as well. None of this chaos = less crap.

Ideally I think better versions of guns would be the way to go, along with actual weird and zany tech, things like a conversion beamer arm for the loyalist dread, or an ectoplasm cannon for the chaos version. And let the damned chaos versions get marks, I mean if we don't get venerable.....and why does all the background for brutes talk about them being "daemonically mutated" but they have no daemon rules at all

[mysterex]

I use two Mortis dreadnoughts in the rifleman configuration (originally from IA2) every time I play my Dark Angel successors.

Two twin-linked autocannons with skyfire and interceptor (if you don't move) for 125 points each are probably one of the best imperial anti-air options and sound better than the new rumoured SM options. I tend to use a quad gun as well and typically shoot most flyers out of the sky as soon as they appear. Then, after the obligatory interceptor break, I can get back to gunning down light vehicles and troops.

Other than that option though, dreadnoughts do tend to struggle.

[Tyrendian]

Nice to hear the Mort Comptor is not gone. Are it's rule 40k approved or just Apoc only? And are they in the newest Apoc book or somewhere else?

regular 40k, and yes they are in the current Imperial Armour: Apocalypse. Regular Contemptor, Blood Angels Contemptor, Space Wolves Contemptor, Contemptor Mortis and Chaos Contemptor to be precise, each with a few nifty things to distinguish them from the others (like the Space Wolf version having double the attacks of a regular one or the Mortis having the aforementioned Skyfire/Interceptor, although it gets that only for your shooting phase so no intercepting with that - it just means you can fire at ground or air as you please!)
Also, amusingly, the Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod doesn't work any more - it is an assault vehicle, yes, but you can't assault out of something that just arrived via Deep Strike (they mention that specifically in the entry, so its not an oversight). What the Lucius now does is give cover to whoever disembarked from it due to smoke and backwash... for a 30pts increase over a normal Pod... go figure...

[SotonShades]

it also doesn't say anywhere that the dreadnought must disembark when the drop pods lands. nor does it say the dreadnought cannot get back in, as per the rules for normal drop pods... most unusual. Unless FW have seen the SM codex and that is going to be the case for all (I like the idea of being able to stay within the superstructure and fire out.)

[Tyrendian]

that does indeed seem to work, altough it feels very weird...
"Hey we've just been dropped from orbit in this large immobile piece of metal, straight into the middle of the enemy's ranks... let's just stay inside (without so much as a hint of a wall, mind you - the doors do have to be opened...), be immune to their guns and wait for the right time to charge out, in five minutes or so..."

*sigh* ForgeWorld and their 1337 rules writing skillz...

[Bob821]

Me and my gaming group tried a few times back in 5th with Dreadnought MC. Never seemed to get the balance right. 2+ armour 5+ invenerble with 4 wounds T6 seemed about right. Probably too much in 6th though with power weapons changed, but if you run a 3+ save you just get krak missiled death by turn 2... Maybe T8 3+ 5+ with 4 wounds?

[Xarga]

Whatever is don'e to dreadnoughts needs to be done to hellbrutes as well. None of this chaos = less crap.

Ideally I think better versions of guns would be the way to go, along with actual weird and zany tech, things like a conversion beamer arm for the loyalist dread, or an ectoplasm cannon for the chaos version. And let the damned chaos versions get marks, I mean if we don't get venerable.....and why does all the background for brutes talk about them being "daemonically mutated" but they have no daemon rules at all

Nobody said this wishlisting was to make SM dreads better than chaos ones. Anyway, i like the idea of relic/daemon weapons for dreads. I'm also surprised Helbrutes don't have the Daemon special rule? I assumed they would as their other daemon engines do.

[DarkLink]

Me and my gaming group tried a few times back in 5th with Dreadnought MC. Never seemed to get the balance right. 2+ armour 5+ invenerble with 4 wounds T6 seemed about right. Probably too much in 6th though with power weapons changed, but if you run a 3+ save you just get krak missiled death by turn 2... Maybe T8 3+ 5+ with 4 wounds?


As they currently are, Dreadnoughts are T8 3W monstrous creatures that have no saves and can't get cover from simply standing in area terrain, and there's a possibility of getting killed or damaged in one shot, though they also can't be wounded by str 5 shooting normally. So, simply turning the Dreadnought over to a T8 monstrous creature with no saves is overall a buff. They get cover more easily, are generally more durable and can't be damaged or killed by one shot, and gain some other small benefits like Move Through Cover.

Frankly, I don't see the point of actual Walker rules. Just make them Monstrous Creatures. The only caveat is that you should make up a Construct special rule, in which they are immune to poison weapons and can't be killed via instant death.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

We are currently working on the same concept. i mean seriously look at the latest monsters... they are machines yet were given monstrous stats. so that's how we are going about it to fix dreads. The easy way to do so is to make them have an Armour save if you don't want them to die to poison ala riptide. I dunno about you but walkers as they stand are point sinks for nothing in return.

[DarkLink]

But you give them an armor save, and suddenly they're immune to a significant amount of the anti-tank that's out there. That's a pretty massive buff to hand out without putting some serious thought into it. Just use the Construct rule I mentioned, it will work out much better while you get a chance to playtest stuff.

[Mr Mystery]

+1 to that.

Consider the saves. 2+? Well, that makes Krak missiles and their equivalents pretty poop.

3+? There's a lot of guns out there which can currently threaten a Dreadnought with just AP4....

In souping something up, you have to be careful not to make other things less useful or appealing.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

just look at how they do the tip tide as well as the eldar wraithknight their rules can be moved right into a dreadnaught or even the wraith lord its an eldar dread basically so following those stats shouldnt be an issue.

[Siris Le Osiris]

The reasoning behind the Wraithlord / Knight being MCs makes sense, they have no one in them to get killed, they are made out of living metal not armour so there are far less weak spots to explode/ damage is less likely to stop them.

Doesn't work so well with a Riptide, works even worse with a SM Dread esp if you want to give it Wraithlord stats but a better save and an invun AND make it immune to poison / ID.

If you want it to be an MC you cant then also request rules to ignore all the disadvantages of being a MC.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Um why wouldnt we want to change the rules for walkers??? honestly no one uses them in this edition and even in the last they were used few and far between their rules just don't work... and um why cant they be a t8 creature? the tellytubby terminators are going to be 2 wounds T5 and have an armour and an invuln save..... their already better then oblits... and i'm sorry if a riptide or a wraithknight all of which have a pilot or 2 can be T and not AV then a damn dread can get AT value with out breaking the game

[DarkLink]

If you want it to be an MC you cant then also request rules to ignore all the disadvantages of being a MC.

Why would Wraithnouns be vulnerable to poison anyways? They should have this Construct rule, too, if you want to try and be logical about it.

Either way, my point is there is absolutely no reason for the overly complex and completely arbitrary differentiation between Walkers and MCs.

[Siris Le Osiris]

My point is you are asking for a unit with no negatives at all.
The reason they (MC Dreds) aren't immune to poison and ID is because units are meant to have weakness and counters.
Why would you ever bother taking a tank when you could take a MC walker that has the things you've listed.

You are wishing for a perfect unit with no vunerablities that no one would not take, which is retarded.

[daboarder]

Nobody said this wishlisting was to make SM dreads better than chaos ones. Anyway, i like the idea of relic/daemon weapons for dreads. I'm also surprised Helbrutes don't have the Daemon special rule? I assumed they would as their other daemon engines do.

Nope they get none of the perks, what they should have done was at the very least give an option for a "daemonic infestation" dread that got the daemon and daemon forged special rules.

[Nabterayl]

Why would you ever bother taking a tank when you could take a MC walker that has the things you've listed.
Well, a tank is faster. It can fire more weapons than an MC can. It can't do both those things at the same time, but it is better at either extreme.

[DarkLink]

There are no transport walkers, either.


My point is you are asking for a unit with no negatives at all.
The reason they (MC Dreds) aren't immune to poison and ID is because units are meant to have weakness and counters.
Why would you ever bother taking a tank when you could take a MC walker that has the things you've listed.

You are wishing for a perfect unit with no vunerablities that no one would not take, which is retarded.

You missed the part where I said it shouldn't have an armor save? You might want to actually read the whole post. Besides, it's not like a T8 3+ armor model is unkillable. In fact, if you were to make Dreadnoughts T8 with 3+ armor, then they'd probably be about half the points cost of a Wraithknight, which, hey, puts us at about 120pts. Amazing.

Just... try to be a little more open-minded.

[Siris Le Osiris]

There are no transport walkers, either.



You missed the part where I said it shouldn't have an armor save? You might want to actually read the whole post. Besides, it's not like a T8 3+ armor model is unkillable. In fact, if you were to make Dreadnoughts T8 with 3+ armor, then they'd probably be about half the points cost of a Wraithknight, which, hey, puts us at about 120pts. Amazing.

Just... try to be a little more open-minded.

And if you actually read I am saying is if they were MCs they shouldn't get ignores poison or Eternal warrior and potentially an invun.
Which you and other people did suggest they should get all / most of the above.

Also for 120 points get get a Wraithlord with *** all gear so Dreds with 2 weapons or more then an assault cannon would have to be more then that.
Plus a bucket load more if you want all sorts of buffs to make them better, heck at 2+/3+ 5++ invun T8 EW immune to poison they would be better then any demon.

[DarkLink]

You seem to be really worked up over the discussion over just the possibility of converting a walker to an MC.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fPigMaqkSSY/T9MN_XQ-bnI/AAAAAAAABDs/DxuP6m84e6g/s320/why+so+seriuos.jpg


And if you actually read I am saying is if they were MCs they shouldn't get ignores poison or Eternal warrior and potentially an invun.
Which you and other people did suggest they should get all / most of the above.

No, what I said was, if you were to convert the Dreadnought to be an MC, making him T8 with no saves but immune to Poison/Force weapons would be effectively identical to what Walkers currently are. The only real difference is the fact that you couldn't weapon destroy/immobilize/explode the Dreadnought in one shot, but seeing as Dreadnought generally suck, I still don't see what your problem with that is.



Also for 120 points get get a Wraithlord with *** all gear so Dreds with 2 weapons or more then an assault cannon would have to be more then that.

What Dreadnought gets more than 2 weapons? Hunter Killer missiles don't really count. And, aside from the Reinforced Aegis on GK Dreadnoughts, what extra special rules would Dreadnoughts have? For 240pts the Wraithknight is a Jump MC. So should we make our Dreadnought MC a jump unit for 120pts? I'm not proposing that. I think it's perfectly reasonable to exchange that extra mobility for a little extra firepower, especially considering that for its price, a Wraithknight's firepower is pretty underwhelming except against very specific targets.

And don't compare to a Wraithlord. For one, that comparison only backs up the idea of giving the Dreadnought an armor save as being perfectly reasonable. More importantly, Wraithlords... kind of suck, too.



Plus a bucket load more if you want all sorts of buffs to make them better, heck at 2+/3+ 5++ invun T8 EW immune to poison they would be better then any demon.

When did any of us say anything about any buffs? Beyond discussion of whether or not to include an armor save, which I will remind you I specifically said that including an armor save is something that should be considered pretty carefully, and the mention of a Construct rule that would leave them immune to Poison/Force Weapons like they currently are, I don't remember anyone saying anything about Eternal Warrior or anything of the sort.

[Siris Le Osiris]

Frankly, I don't see the point of actual Walker rules. Just make them Monstrous Creatures. The only caveat is that you should make up a Construct special rule, in which they are immune to poison weapons and can't be killed via instant death.
^ immune to ID == eternal warrior and immune poison would be massive buffs, esp if they did get a save (Which if MCs they would because otherwise people would complain about them dying to tau standard inf fire)

Never said ~you~ said to give them saves but multiple other posts have said to give them a 2+ or a 3+

Why wouldn't people compare them to a wraithlord considering you are wanting them to basically become one.
Wraithlord's come with zero main guns at 120pts. I am talking about the fact 120 pt base + upgrades would have to be the price point, before any other special rules costs were added.
So if wraithlords come at 120 points and "Wraithlords... kind of suck" why would dreds be the same price, similar statline and better exactly? because a Wraithknight is 240pt?

I have nothing against them being MCs just not MCs with no disadvantages.


ie. Would you want/want to face a wraithknight / wraithlord with EW and immune to poison?

[DarkLink]

I'm... I think I'm missing something. Immune to instant death and poison weapons would hardly be a buff, considering that, lacking an armor save, you'd just get glanced to death without too much touble, which is exactly how most people deal with vehicles now. I don't see why you're having such a difficult time with that.

And did you really just ask me 'if Wraithlords suck, why would you make Dreadnoughts the same price, but better?' Because you really should be able to answer that question yourself. If Wraithlords suck, and we're pricing a Dreadnought at about the same as a Wraithlord, if we don't want the Dreadnought to suck we need to make it better than a Wraithlord. An Eternal Warrior Wraithlord that was immune to poison and came with a gun for roughly 120pts would definitely not suck. Wraithlords suffer from the problem of having to buy expensive weapons, while Dreadnoughts suffer from the problem of being blown up in one shot, or immobilized, or weapon destroyed, or whatever. It would stand to reason that, if we wanted to modify the rules to make Dreadnoughts work better, we would analyze those weaknesses and improve upon them to made a good unit.

If the Wraithknight didn't have an armor save, I'd face it any day, who cares about Eternal Warrior. Any good army can easily bring enough Str 5+ firepower to glance it to death, even with 5+ cover. It's the 3+ armor that keeps it alive.

[Siris Le Osiris]

Apparently missing what I am saying.

But your argument there is exactly why it would never work, no-one would field a MC that had no save because so many units in the game would just end them with relative ease (Esp Firewarriors and Kroot but anything strength 5+ and high volume so all Tau, Eldar, Nids), if anything they would be significantly weaker then before. Ergo they would be given a save.

So what you are basically advocating is that you should get a cheaper more powerful unit then the comparable units.... because you think it would be cool to get under-costed stuff.

The trade off for being a MC is that you can be effected by things a Vehicle cant.
Inc instant death, Poison and to a much greater degree Snipers.

SO you get the bonus of not being blown up on a lucky roll but you pay for it elsewhere, a tradeoff.

[Bob821]

I'm not going to wade in other than to say the only way to be sure about how something works on the table is play test it.

I think MC T6 4 wounds 3+ Armour and feel no pain... Poison and instant death work normally. Toughness 6 because there is still a soft pink bit in the middle. 4 wounds to show how hugely tough this beast is. 3+ because although 2+ makes more sense it's well over the top without a very serious points lift. Feel no pain again shows how tough and hard to kill one of these monsters is. Finally Poison and ID to work normally because there is still soft pink core of half dead space marine to poison or insta kill with a force weapon or some other nasty crap sat in the middle.

I have spoken to my Eldar playing bud and we are going to give this set up a go in a few days... I'll let you know how it gets on!

[Siris Le Osiris]

FNP does seem appropriate for people on life support that could have pain hardwired or drugged out :P

[DarkLink]

But your argument there is exactly why it would never work, no-one would field a MC that had no save because so many units in the game would just end them with relative ease (Esp Firewarriors and Kroot but anything strength 5+ and high volume so all Tau, Eldar, Nids), if anything they would be significantly weaker then before. Ergo they would be given a save.

And yet you lambasted it as being overpowered or something. I'm still not sure what you're getting at, other than trolling me.



So what you are basically advocating is that you should get a cheaper more powerful unit then the comparable units.... because you think it would be cool to get under-costed stuff.

X unit is underpowered. Making an equivalent to X, but ensuring it's a little bit better than X, means you get a balanced unit, because X is underpowered. The logic here is not very complex. I really don't know if I can explain it more simply than that.



The trade off for being a MC is that you can be effected by things a Vehicle cant.
Inc instant death, Poison and to a much greater degree Snipers.

Completely arbitrary. What about that are you not understanding?

[Siris Le Osiris]

Dark I was replying in general not just to you, as I've said before and now again I said those with a save would be overpowered. Without it sure you would have made Dreds worse what was the point of your argument again?

T value 6 - 8, 3W, 3+SV, FNP would be better and less "must be immune to everything"

Its not completely arbitrary its simple game design, each unit type has benefits and weaknesses, you don't try and give something all the bonuses and none of the negatives whilst simultaneously making it better then other similar units.
That's call being crap at game balance and or making faceroll units that need no skill to use.

Why do you arbitrarily think Dreds should be immune to ID which at this level are usually caused by weapons that disintegrate things or suck them into the warp, that in general have that rule because they cause some insane amount of damage? (To ID a above T5 model anyway)

[phreakachu]

And that would make them far too hard. Drop Pod in, and then wade straight into combat against a unit that stands little to no chance of felling it, and boom, that single Dreadnought has too much free reign. Add in this would likely lead to spam....

i beg to differ. if the stats remain unchanged, then odds are you get a kamikaze dread: shows up, gets decent round before getting blown to hell in a hand basket. if your dread gets lucky, or your opponent decides to ignore it, all the better. correct me if im wrong, but cant marine players do that with a Stormraven anyways? I haven't seen the updated rules, but last time I peeped them, the Chibihawk could tow a dread and had the assault ramps rule.

as far as armor 13/4hp a Defiler has both, AND It Will Not Die *AND* a 5+ invuln... and its still susceptible to a lucky shot. im not gonna mention fear because its almost a worthless rule.

now heres the part I get all glassy eyed from wishing.

Dreadnaught. unit: Walker (Character) 0-1 Elites *OR* HQ
WS/BS 5, as an upgrade, you can increase *one* to 6
AV 13/13/11
S6,I4,A3,HP3
Special:
Ancient Warrior: This unit fires Snap Shots on a 5+. Why? because vehicles can pretty much always fire, unless it happens to be overwatch fire. and even the Tau ignore that. but rather than a crewman dealing with glitching systems or a head getting knocked against a bulkhead, the 'pilot' is hardwired into the machine.
Re-route power: When this unit suffers a weapon destroyed result, roll a d6. on a 2+ the controlling player may choose what weapon gets destroyed.
Hero of Old: it the gameis played with objectives and this unit is wrecked or destroyed, leave it on the table. It is now an objective worth 2 VP. if the game type uses Kill Points, this unit is worth 2 KP.
Veteran of 1000 wars: This unit may choose to outflank, or if in a drop pod may arrive via deep strike when the controlling player chooses. This unit also gains Preferred Enemy (your opponent) Why? becausewe came to this war knowing that we were fighting Greenskins, and Ancient Brother Frank has a great deal of wisdom when it comes to offing Greenskins. so we unthawed Frank and brought him along.

Venerable, may upgrade both WS and BS to 6. Any time this unit hakes damage from the Vehicle damage chart, roll a d6. on a 2+, roll twice and choose a result. Why? because its pretty lame to re-roll that immobilized into an Explodes result. because ive been in this freakin robot shell for damn near a millennium, and I know that hit is coming, and its either twist myself and take it on the actuators for my legs or take it directly to the Scarcophagus.. easy decision.


Iron Clad,
AV14/13/12, Tank Hunters with that beautiful +1 vs fortifications and buildings

WHY? because Dreads are supposed to be HEROES OF THE CHAPTER. they don't cram Joey the scout int a sarcophagus, or Bill Tac Marine who got turned into hamburger on his first mkission. Dreads are Captains, Chaplains, Veterans who have proven their worth to both the Emperor and the Chapter a thousand times over.. its an HONOR reseved for the greatest of the great, the baddest of the bad. you might be all f'ed up and unable to fight, but unless youre WORTH getting to keep serving, you get the Emperors Peace.
0-1? that's unheared of in this edition! but fluffwise, outside of the heresy you don't hear of a mess of dreads getting landed... its always one. and that one tends to be doing his own thing and or advising the Captain or Sargent. sometimes both. want 2-3? take a Master of the Forge, who would remove the limitations. as an Elites OR HQ, youd see a max of 4.

Hellbrute would get the same options, with Marks of Chaos and the Crazy rule.

Finally, why Character? Why Not? Its freakin awesome, and I liked the idea of the Lone Wolf from the SW dex, or Sly Marbo: the Character who is the lone bada$$ on the field. the Hero (or Villain) that doesn't care about being in charge, hes just doing his thing. tasty fluff.
so who wants to rip this idea apart?

[Demonicsarge55]

I think it would be a easy nice touch to give them a 4+ inv, I mean if Tactical Dreadnought armor has a 5+ inv base why doesn't the bigger one have at least a 5+. Also give their weapons an upgraded profile, the plasma cannon should fire two blasts, the multi melta should be heavy 2, ect.

[Bob821]

Rip it apart? It's Fookin super! I love the passion! More power, more soul, more story, more hero! Dreadnoughts need this sort of love from GW!

[Bob821]

I think it would be a easy nice touch to give them a 4+ inv, I mean if Tactical Dreadnought armor has a 5+ inv base why doesn't the bigger one have at least a 5+. Also give their weapons an upgraded profile, the plasma cannon should fire two blasts, the multi melta should be heavy 2, ect.

Agree with this too. How can a huge walking killing machine have the same power Plasma Cannon as a lower devistator marine?

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

ya i can agree to that its not a normal infantry model. you can have a tank with a heavy x profile why wouldn't a dread be able to have more shots. and i am sorry if these are supposed to be relics and a great honor to be in one why does it feel like im sentencing my ancients to an inglorious death.... either vi glance or via just sucking.

[wolflold]

Problem with dreadnoughts is they die faster in close combat than VS shooting! With all the haywire and melta out there a dread doesn't stand a chance! They should change it back to where you could only hit dreads on a 6" with grenades, its after all hard to put an grenade on a mad moving while swinging with big fists/claws/weapons metal veteran robot! The tactic melta dreads in drop pods is dead too, but then again marines are outclassed nowadays...To many high strength shoot more then you can roll dice for low points armies. I love dreads and stil put them in my army, hoping they once wil be good again.

[phreakachu]

I honestly think that invuln saves on vehicles should only be against glancing hits. if every vehicle had a 6 plus vs glancing hits, it would greatly reduce the plinking effect that you see. and take the teeth out of necrons vs vehicles.

[Demonus]

that does indeed seem to work, altough it feels very weird...
"Hey we've just been dropped from orbit in this large immobile piece of metal, straight into the middle of the enemy's ranks... let's just stay inside (without so much as a hint of a wall, mind you - the doors do have to be opened...), be immune to their guns and wait for the right time to charge out, in five minutes or so..."

*sigh* ForgeWorld and their 1337 rules writing skillz...

LOL reminds me of a game of Death Watch I was playing in. Drop podded onto a world being overrun by Tyranids in order to save the governor and some special item he had. We land, see a swarm ahead, and the Heavy Weapons guy says "Maybe we should just wait here, until the reinforcements come..."

He was dead serious.