Abaddon the Despoiler: Fun ADB Blogpost

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Your homework for today is to read this excellent blog post about Abaddon. Not sure who exactly is responsible for the amazing essay on our neighbourhood friendly Warmaster of Chaos contained within the post, but it reassured me once more that the people who write this stuff really do know what they're doing.

It's excellent. Go read.

http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

[Aegwymourn]

That was an incredibly good read. Thanks for sharing that.

[Zac78]

Very good read cheers

[eldargal]

Rather good read, puts Abaddon in a new, favourable light. Also amusing to read ADBs response to a particularly idiotic dismissal.

[ElectricPaladin]

That is interesting. It's a neat exploration of the fundamental tragedy of Chaos and those who serve it.

[Katharon]

One small mistake, in my opinion:

"And he wonders if it is vanity. He wonders if he is deserving. He wonders if what he wants is possible."

This I find the only thing that doesn't jive. Abaddon is many things and has many vices, but vanity and doubt were never party to them. He never basked in the vanity of being "Little Horus" like Aximand, nor ever felt that he was ever undeserving of his place as First Captain and then Warmaster of Chaos. He claimed them as being his by right, by conquest and privilege.

To make him think of vanity or somehow undeserving of the position he has carved out for himself is to lessen Abaddon as the Arch-Traitor he is.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I don't agree one bit. I don't think any character is diminished by being made more rounded by giving them mortal, human reactions to their situation. Abaddon is the single most terrifyingly powerful mortal in the 40k galaxy. But he's still *mortal*. Part of the mortality is contained in that very same (and it is only occasional) self-doubt. He's not a Daemon, he's not a Primarch; he's a man. A genetically engineered superhuman invested with numerous of the Boons of Chaos, but a man. And it's his ability to maintain control of his independence, his own mind, and his own will, in the face of the pure Chaos of the Warp, which makes him as powerful and threatening as he is. And a part of that ability, that strength and determination, must come from self-examination. He knows what he could become; he may, in darker moments, fear that he is already becoming it. It's how he reacts to this which drives him on.

There's no drama if he's immune to all human frailties, after all. :)

[ElectricPaladin]

I think if Abaddon was immune to doubt after so many years of playing this rigged game, he'd have to be some kind of moron. I understand why he keeps playing - the "good money after bad" fallacy is a powerful force, and what choice does he really have? - but to never have doubts? He'd have to be an idiot. I don't think he's an idiot.

[Katharon]

I didn't say he was "immune to all human frailties." I said that vanity and doubt are not, and should not, be among his vices or weaknesses.

He suffers from (imho): pride, envy, and covetousness. These are the primary emotions which drive him in his quest to accomplish what Horus could not.

Pride in that he knows himself, knows that he commands as the Warmaster of Chaos, and pride in himself as a warrior that once stood astride Terra as it's would-be conqueror and will be again. It is his pride that drives him to remain untainted by any single chaos god or to give any of them his single allegiance -- to which he knows will see the end of his ambition to conquer the Imperium.

Envy in that he both loathes and hates the strength of unity that the Imperium has at its defense, that he cannot bind the factions of Chaos more tightly within his talon'ed fist; and perhaps even envious of the powers that are given in full to those daemon prices and primarchs that fell to individual Chaos gods.

Covetousness for the Golden Throne and the dominion of the universe.


Those are three emotions, human emotions, I see Abaddon suffering from. Vanity and doubt are not among them.

[Wolfshead]

I don't see any "should not" at all in regard to vanity or doubt with Abaddon, nor do I see how him feeling them lessens him at all. He doesn't have to feel them all the time after all.

Regarding vanity, it is something that I think goes hand in hand with vast power and is something that must be guarded against if one is to avoid falling into the trap of believing ones hype. Indeed, in the 40K universe, if one were to give in to vanity and bask in ones own power and majesty then one would soon find Slaanesh tickling ones pickle a tentacle growing somewhere it shouldn't.
Abaddon needs to be vigilant against vanity and suppress it whenever he feels it because if he doesn't he risks making the same mistakes as Horus, or some of them at least.

As for doubt, nobody is immune to that. Some people may be good at putting it aside easily and without any worry or stress, but they feel it all the same to begin with. I imagine that even the Emperor felt doubts even before his powers of foresight failed him as he was, after all, just a man. Doubt is an essential part of the human condition as without it we will plough on into the most dangerous of situations without a care. Yes, Abaddon is a post-human killing machine wearing a suit of the toughest and most protective armour that the Imperium ever made and he has a vast army of similar soldiers, mortal slaves & followers and goodness knows what else at his disposal, but that doesn't mean he can't have moments in the cold dark of the night where he wonders if perhaps he's fooling himself and his fall to the depths that Horus sank too is inevitable and all he is doing is postponing it, rather than stopping it.

Abaddon should not show mercy without good reason (even if said reason is simply because the reaction to it amuses him) nor should he write love poetry about anyone. Those would be out of character and diminish him somewhat. Making him struggle with vanity and doubt on occasion? That just adds depth and nuance and makes him less likely to go to a barbers and buy a jar of moustache wax and ask Erebus for tips on how to twirl with panache and maximum badness.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It's moot, anyway; this text is as close as you're gonna get to Word Of God about Abaddon's motivations and character.

[coppersungt]

Sweet! love the objectivity

[Nabterayl]

True enough.

I agree that M41 Abaddon ought to experience some doubt, though. That isn't doubt about his goals, or that he should be the one to carry them out. It's doubt about his methods. It's the vestige of his uncorrupted intelligence saying, "Wait a minute ... this is never going to work. There is a critical flaw in the very premise of my plan. Nobody has made an unstoppable army of Chaos because it can't be done; it isn't a matter of just need the right leader. It literally cannot be done. Maybe I should ..."

And then the forces of Chaos tempt him back. "Yes it can be done. All you need is to be strong enough, clever enough, charismatic enough, tough enough ... it's not impossible. Nobody has done it before. But you can do it. You can bend Chaos to your will. All you need is a little more knowledge, a little more determination, a little more strength, a little more independence, a little more of ... us."

And then he steps back from the brink of doubt, convinced once again that he can make Chaos his instrument without succumbing to it, that he can forge an army of Chaos that is not only huge but has the internal cohesion - provided in the form of his own peerless self - to go the distance. It's not doubts about whether he should rule mankind, only doubts about whether his current plan (step 1: create unstoppable army of Chaos; step 2: overthrow current ruler(s) of mankind; step 3: profit!) will actually work.

EDIT: The reason I like this is because, of course, it is patently obvious to the reader that it won't work. You can't create an unstoppable army out of Chaos. It will never have the internal cohesion to go the distance. If no part of Abaddon ever realized that, he'd just be an idiot, a dupe.

[ElectricPaladin]

True enough.

I agree that M41 Abaddon ought to experience some doubt, though. That isn't doubt about his goals, or that he should be the one to carry them out. It's doubt about his methods. It's the vestige of his uncorrupted intelligence saying, "Wait a minute ... this is never going to work. There is a critical flaw in the very premise of my plan. Nobody has made an unstoppable army of Chaos because it can't be done; it isn't a matter of just need the right leader. It literally cannot be done. Maybe I should ..."

And then the forces of Chaos tempt him back. "Yes it can be done. All you need is to be strong enough, clever enough, charismatic enough, tough enough ... it's not impossible. Nobody has done it before. But you can do it. You can bend Chaos to your will. All you need is a little more knowledge, a little more determination, a little more strength, a little more independence, a little more of ... us."

And then he steps back from the brink of doubt, convinced once again that he can make Chaos his instrument without succumbing to it, that he can forge an army of Chaos that is not only huge but has the internal cohesion - provided in the form of his own peerless self - to go the distance. It's not doubts about whether he should rule mankind, only doubts about whether his current plan (step 1: create unstoppable army of Chaos; step 2: overthrow current ruler(s) of mankind; step 3: profit!) will actually work.

EDIT: The reason I like this is because, of course, it is patently obvious to the reader that it won't work. You can't create an unstoppable army out of Chaos. It will never have the internal cohesion to go the distance. If no part of Abaddon ever realized that, he'd just be an idiot, a dupe.

Bingo!

It isn't that some vestige of Abaddon's morality or compassion. It's the vestiges of his natural intelligence, potential for humility and self reflection, and independence.

[Nabterayl]

And to go back to the vanity point, the only real reason he needs to do it with Chaos is because it has to be him. Abaddon isn't in this to overthrow the Imperium for the good of mankind. He's in it for the good of Abaddon. It is certainly possible, at least in principle, to build an army that can overthrow the Imperium. You could ground that army's power in the legions of human beings who don't feel served by the Imperium and in the space marines who don't feel served by the slavery of their chapters, just like Abaddon has done. You just can't also ground it in the actual power of Chaos, as Abaddon has done.

In order to overthrow the Imperium the old fashioned way, you need an entire society that can support the sort of army you need. That means you need a safe haven of some sort, so the Imperium doesn't crush you while you're setting things up. It also means that the guy who starts the project is probably going to be dead by the time the unstoppable army is ready to go, even with a space marine's lifespan. The powers of Chaos provide Abaddon with both the haven (the Eye of Terror) and the possibility that he, personally, can live the dream. In reality, ultimately, he has to choose: do it in a slower way with a more conventional route to success and admit that he will never personally see the Imperium cast down, or do it in the faster way with the impossible [edit: It's not impossible! You can do it! -Chaos gods] route to success that will let him be there.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Isn't this just the coolest damn thing? It's like, this is actually a character! They've really thought about this!

[Nabterayl]

Now the poor deluded sod just needs a more modern model ...

[sangrail777]

That was a good read, I like this so much better then how he gets portrayed in fluff

[Katharon]

*sigh*

Can't argue against a brick wall, since words aren't a hammer. You're taking far too human-esque a line in comparing normal human emotions with what is suppose to be a post-mortal warrior who has spent 10,000 inside the Warp and spending that entire time focused upon gaining more power and using it to achieve what his dead overlord couldn't. I again, stress, that vanity and doubt do not fit that sort of character. Doubt is something reserved for a being who does not see himself/herself winning in the end; and vanity is reserved for characters who see in others what they wish they had in themselves, and so amplify themselves to feed that dark emotion.

But, I won't waste any more words on it.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Edit: snip!

[eldargal]

*sigh*

Can't argue against a brick wall, since words aren't a hammer. You're taking far too human-esque a line in comparing normal human emotions with what is suppose to be a post-mortal warrior who has spent 10,000 inside the Warp and spending that entire time focused upon gaining more power and using it to achieve what his dead overlord couldn't. I again, stress, that vanity and doubt do not fit that sort of character. Doubt is something reserved for a being who does not see himself/herself winning in the end; and vanity is reserved for characters who see in others what they wish they had in themselves, and so amplify themselves to feed that dark emotion.

But, I won't waste any more words on it.
No offense but it isn't a brick wall, you just aren't making a particularly compelling argument. This is a chap who has spent ten thousand years resisting the lure of Chaos AND fighting to conquer an Imperium that will never accept him. If at some point he wasn't asking himself whether or not the only real reason he was continuing was because he was too proud to admit it won't work then it would be a very superficial characterisation indeed.

[Katharon]

No offense but it isn't a brick wall, you just aren't making a particularly compelling argument. This is a chap who has spent ten thousand years resisting the lure of Chaos AND fighting to conquer an Imperium that will never accept him. If at some point he wasn't asking himself whether or not the only real reason he was continuing was because he was too proud to admit it won't work then it would be a very superficial characterisation indeed.

He has never desired to be "accepted' by the Imperium; he's after to conquer it. Also, I wouldn't call each of the Black Crusades failures. From a military stand point, he's been slowly gathering and achieving objectives that get him further each time he essays out from the Eye of Terror. Think of it like stepping stones -- each foray out is him laying down future groundwork for where he will be again, and quickly pass by. The capture of the Blackstone Fortresses is a perfect example. He's gaining tactical advantages that will serve in the long-term strategic game of conquering.

And again, while it might seem as if he is a better character for having doubt, then he isn't the true Warmaster of Chaos. It just isn't a flaw his character, or the position his character is in, should have in my opinion. (And again, it's just my opinion.)

[ElectricPaladin]

He has never desired to be "accepted' by the Imperium; he's after to conquer it...

Read the Horus Heresy. A very clear impetus for the rebellion of the Astartes was the fear - probably justified - that they were merely a means to an end, and that once the Crusade was over, the Emperor would turn his back on them. They were beings bred for war, and they feared that the war would come to a close and they would become... inconvenient, and be removed, with all the Emperor's characteristic efficiency.


And again, while it might seem as if he is a better character for having doubt, then he isn't the true Warmaster of Chaos. It just isn't a flaw his character, or the position his character is in, should have in my opinion. (And again, it's just my opinion.)

That makes no sense to me. Being without doubt would make him a mustache twirling "next time Gadget!" kind of character.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It's like a brick wall because you're trying to argue that the description of a character, by that character's owners, creators and writers, is somehow wrong. You can disagree, but it's their character. They can write him as they desire. You can do what you like with him - that's the name of the game - but it's their character. What's to argue with?

[eldargal]

He has never desired to be "accepted' by the Imperium; he's after to conquer it. Also, I wouldn't call each of the Black Crusades failures. From a military stand point, he's been slowly gathering and achieving objectives that get him further each time he essays out from the Eye of Terror. Think of it like stepping stones -- each foray out is him laying down future groundwork for where he will be again, and quickly pass by. The capture of the Blackstone Fortresses is a perfect example. He's gaining tactical advantages that will serve in the long-term strategic game of conquering.

And again, while it might seem as if he is a better character for having doubt, then he isn't the true Warmaster of Chaos. It just isn't a flaw his character, or the position his character is in, should have in my opinion. (And again, it's just my opinion.)
Well I don't mean accepted in the sense people are going to turn around and go 'We love you Abby!' but rather they would never accept him ruling them, it would be total would until either the IoM or Abaddons forces are annihilated and either way he loses what he seems to be fighting for. Also I didn't say the Black Crusaders were failures, that is too simplistic. As you say it is about laying the groundwork for future plans.

But wondering if he is just doing it because he won't accept being ruled by a Corpse God or a Chaos god rather than whatever other reasons he tells himself isn't the same as doubting himself. Self reflection and self awareness are far from character flaws.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It should also be noted that this has been presented as an 'every once in a while...' kind of thing. Chaos ebbs and flows; these are the kinds of thoughts which find Abaddon at a low ebb. But then it, and he, all come roaring back.