VOTLW vs ICON of Vangance

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

okay so i continue to have this debate. Which route do i wish to go? This question has been on my mind since the new codex came out. my cult troops are already fearless so that was never an issue its just as the book was digested i moved more and more away from actual berserkers :( (this just isn't their edition assault rules and shooting are just now where near balanced) Thus the conundrum which to take a fearless rule for the csm thats not that cheap or to switch into vets just for 1+ ldr and save some points?

Honestly its rather annoying that they aren't just fearless already but none the less just debating out loud the merits of each. i mean just to save a few points? i loose fearless... Honestly i keep thinking to just spend the points and lie to myself and tell myself that their base points are just a lil higher then they are in the book :)

[DarkLink]

Trick question. The answer is neither. But if you insist on taking power armor in CSM, take VOTLW. The Icon is too easy to snipe.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Ya i know the icon can be snipped and all but honestly what can't be sniped anymore? i mean if i didn't take the icon's on the units i know that would free up some points but i'm not sure it frees up enough points if i could get enough points for a 3rd csm squad i most certainly would.

[SacredChao]

The icon may be easy to snipe.... but it depends on your meta. In my area, most of the players either don't remember that the icon can be sniped, or they don't remember to use Precision shots.

That being said, in order to kill the icon bearer, your opponent must first have a character or sniper rifle, roll a 6 to hit, your icon bearer must be in LOS AND range of the gun fired (not hard, but still a factor), then wound, then you make your saves.

edit: Oh, and precision strikes are determined before wounds, so if they put every precision strike against the icon, any excess unsaved are wasted.

That's alot of conditions to snipe out a guy. Normally, a player does not have very much sniper weaponry (unless they're tau with kroot or drones), and generally the characters aren't armed with anything really dangerous enough to outright kill the icon.

It really comes down to one thing: How much do you hate Space Marines, and how much do you hate failing LD10 panic checks from shooting? I hate both, so I generally take both. Even fearless, VOTLW helps your Chaos marines against a certain psychic power and the Doom of Malantai. And rerolls against Space Marines? Sign me up!

[DarkLink]

Don't forget Barrage. Either way, both are subpar options, and actual CSM Marines are overpriced once you upgrade them enough to make them useful.

[SacredChao]

Don't forget Barrage. Either way, both are subpar options, and actual CSM Marines are overpriced once you upgrade them enough to make them useful.

Yes, I forgot about barrage, still not as reliable, especially if you have the icon as far back as possible, but in my opinion it's better at sniping then snipers :P

I do agree that the standard Chaos Space Marine is over-priced, especially when you consider a Tactical Marine in Dark Angels (and regular Marines, if the rumor is true) is a single point more and is Super-Fearless (ATSNNF), and has the same leadership and standard wargear. Our customizability remains better than them, but Super-Fearless to me is not a 1 point upgrade per model.

However, Power Armor is NOT dead in CSM! Plague Marines are amazing, and so are Noise Marines (Sonic Weaponry r0x0rz j00r b0x0rz!) Thousand Sons are still kinda expensive, but still good. Berzerkerz died with every assault unit in 6th though T_T

[DarkLink]

It doesn't matter how far back the icon is. You just center the barrage template over the icon's head. And while Plague and Noise Marines are good, Thousand Sons really aren't. Berzerkers can be good, very situationally, in fact there's a frontpage article about that right now.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

ya i do have to say the more and more i see the CSM codex the more outrage i have over it things are just so overpriced anymore for what you get with power armour its sadly not worth it anymore in my honest opinion. and i know first hand my berserkers are dead they are not suited to this edition at all thus the change over to CSM for me i mean my plague marines are great but i don't alaways want to stand and shoot some times i want to get in and buther you with chain axes and thats just not possible this edition. or when i happens its suicidial.

[SacredChao]

It doesn't matter how far back the icon is. You just center the barrage template over the icon's head. And while Plague and Noise Marines are good, Thousand Sons really aren't. Berzerkers can be good, very situationally, in fact there's a frontpage article about that right now.

But if the Barrage is far back, the number of hits on the squad are less, while this fact doesn't save the icon, is 4 hits on the squad and making them only LD9 worth not having 6-8 hits on the squad and having most of them dead? :P I do agree it's effective, but in most cases people would rather more hits on the squad then having the chance of them run off the board.

[DarkLink]

Not saying that it'll happen in every game. It's just that it's easy enough to pull off, and it's such an expensive upgrade, stacked on top of a bunch of other overpriced upgrades, that CSM Marines just aren't worth it at higher levels of competition, generally.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Ya i was afraid of that. there is a lot to consider in what to do with those points. honestly i think i will probably just dump those points into a 3rd squad when i move the list up to another points level. for as sad as it is. I'll just run them naked and disposable. That makes me pretty sick to think of my legionnaire's being used as cheap cannon fodder but i guess its sad to say that is the current state of affairs in the chaos codex.

[DarkLink]

You can do what, I think it's Mercer, does, and use them as a retinue for characters. He does triple Land Raiders with a unit of Chosen, two units of Berzerkers, Abaddon, and Kharn. You could take that basic idea and run with it.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

in all honesty just so i can get berserker's on the field i think i'm going to start sneaking them into my CSM squads lol. right now the list i'm tweaking involves a single land raider kharn his berserker buddies. 2 scm squads bikers a biker lord 2 preds and a drake. it all comes down to roughly 1850 and when i drop the icons i suddenly sneak in a unit of cultists. its just a toss up for me either fearless on 2 squads or a unit of cultits. though at a higher points bracket i can possibly drop the icons and bring in a 3rd squad possibly give them melta to go along with the dual plasma units and see how those work. we shall have to see.