IG Platoon and Reserves

[BlueRonin]

These are some questions I have from reading through the "Dawn of War Deployment" thread:

If I chose to withhold Infantry Platoon units in reserve, must I then withhold the entire Infantry Platoon?

From page 96 in the C:IG it says "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves."

The BRB (page 94) states "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."

My interpretation would be that an IG player could selectively withhold individual units from an Infantry Platoon in reserve, as long as the mission doesn't define deployment on the basis of FOC slots (as opposed to units, like in DoW).

However, having broken the cohesion of the Infantry Platoon, it seems strange that the remaining units in reserve must still be rolled for collectively - especially if they are re-organized with other units (such as transport vehicles and independent characters).

I'm picturing the following scenario:

I have an Infantry Platoon consisting of a Platoon Command Squad, three infantry squads, a special weapon squad, and a unit of conscripts.

I deploy the Platoon Command Squad and two Infantry Squads and withhold the rest in reserves. I specify to my opponent that my Commissar Lord has joined the Special Weapon Squad, my Ministorum Priest has joined the Conscripts, and that the third Infantry Squad is mounted in a Valkyrie.

Assuming that I can withhold only some units from an Infantry Platoon in reserve, am I correct in my understanding that I now roll for the remaining 3 units and the 3 units that are now attached to them as one? I.e. on a single 4+ the SpcWpnSqd+CommLord, Priest+Conscripts, and Valkyrie+InfSqd all come in at the same time?

If this is indeed correct, I'm a bit amused over the notion that Al'Rahem + an Astropath would allow you to bring a grand total of 33 units practically on the flank of your choice with a single dice roll... lol :)

[Lerra]

That's correct.


If this is indeed correct, I'm a bit amused over the notion that Al'Rahem + an Astropath would allow you to bring a grand total of 33 units practically on the flank of your choice with a single dice roll... lol
It rolls both ways, though. A single failed die roll means that NONE of your guys hit the table.

[BlueRonin]

It rolls both ways, though. A single failed die roll means that NONE of your guys hit the table.

True, but the sheer entertainment value of having 33 units rock up in turn 5 would make it worth it! "Sorry we're a bit late guys..." :)

[DarkLink]

I'd rather have all my reserves show up in one big wave, rather than trickling in.

[lobster-overlord]

I'm trying to add 2 and 2 to figure out this tactic, but I'm coming up with 3. Can someone explain for me how this works out on one die roll?

[Nabterayl]

The IG codex specifies that infantry platoons are rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves. So rather than rolling a die for each unit that comprises the platoon, you roll a single die for the entire platoon. If you make that single reserve roll, each unit in the platoon comes on; if you fail the roll, each unit in the platoon stays off.

Al'rahem is a special platoon commander who specifies that all units in his platoon must outflank.

However, the collective infantry platoon roll just says whether the units come on or off. Units in the platoon that are outflanking still roll individually for which table edge they come on from. So while Al'rahem's entire platoon will outflank, and will all come on the board together, they won't necessarily come on the same side of the board together.

An astropath allows you to re-roll the die to determine which side of the board an outflanking unit comes on from. So:

If you have an infantry platoon, the platoon will all come on from reserve together (or all fail to come on from reserve together).

If that infantry platoon is led by Al'rahem, the platoon will all outflank and will all come on from reserve together.

If you have an astropath in your army, Al'rahem's infantry platoon will all outflank and will all come on from reserve together, and will get a re-roll if the outflanking die if any individual unit comes on from the wrong side.

[Culven]

I'm picturing the following scenario:

I have an Infantry Platoon consisting of a Platoon Command Squad, three infantry squads, a special weapon squad, and a unit of conscripts.

I deploy the Platoon Command Squad and two Infantry Squads and withhold the rest in reserves. I specify to my opponent that my Commissar Lord has joined the Special Weapon Squad, my Ministorum Priest has joined the Conscripts, and that the third Infantry Squad is mounted in a Valkyrie.

Assuming that I can withhold only some units from an Infantry Platoon in reserve, am I correct in my understanding that I now roll for the remaining 3 units and the 3 units that are now attached to them as one? I.e. on a single 4+ the SpcWpnSqd+CommLord, Priest+Conscripts, and Valkyrie+InfSqd all come in at the same time?
I agree with part of this. I would agree that the SWS and Conscripts would make a single Reserves roll since they are from the same Platoon, and the ICs joined to the units would come with them. I don't agree that the Unit in the Valkyrie would arrive with them and bring the Valkyrie along with. There are too many problems with claiming that one can roll for a squad and bring their non-Dedicated Transport with them. I view it the other way round. One must roll for the non-Dedicated Transport unit, and any embarked units will come along for the ride. After all, it is the Transport's rules that are used to govern how it enters play and moves, and the Embarked unit has no bearing upon that.

[Nabterayl]

One must roll for the non-Dedicated Transport unit, and any embarked units will come along for the ride. After all, it is the Transport's rules that are used to govern how it enters play and moves, and the Embarked unit has no bearing upon that.
Concur.

[lobster-overlord]

OK, thanks for the details. Makes sense now.

John M>

[BlueRonin]

I agree with part of this. I would agree that the SWS and Conscripts would make a single Reserves roll since they are from the same Platoon, and the ICs joined to the units would come with them. I don't agree that the Unit in the Valkyrie would arrive with them and bring the Valkyrie along with. There are too many problems with claiming that one can roll for a squad and bring their non-Dedicated Transport with them. I view it the other way round. One must roll for the non-Dedicated Transport unit, and any embarked units will come along for the ride. After all, it is the Transport's rules that are used to govern how it enters play and moves, and the Embarked unit has no bearing upon that.

Although I agree to the sense of this, and would like to play it this way, my interpretation of the BRB (pg 94) still seems to argue against it.

"Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together."

I'm not as good at breaking down the grammar as some of the other guys on the forum, but to me these sentences seem to link the transport (any transport) to the unit, and not the unit to the transport. I certainly don't know of any reference that indicates that non-dedicated transports are handled any different in this regard?

Therefore I still interpret the rules as follows:

a) Infantry Squad belongs to the Infantry Platoon, and comes on the 'Platoon Reserves Roll'.
b) Independent character is attached to infantry squad, which belongs to the 'Platoon Reserves Roll'.
c) Infantry squad and IC mounts up in a transport, and as "the unit and the transport will be rolled for together" I get the impression that they all fall under the 'Platoon Reserves Roll' - regardless of whether or not the transport is dedicated.

Is this just an interpretation issue, or is there any contrary evidence?

[Culven]

Useing your interpretation, what would happen if one had three infantry platoons of three squads with the three squads spread over three Valkyrie squads? With your "transport linked to the unit" interpretation, there is the possibility of a single successful Reserves roll for a platoon pulling all platoons and Valkyrie squads in at one time. By having the embarked units linked to the Transports, this is no possible.

[Jwolf]

I'm shocked that anyone looking for a reasonable answer would have a different opinion than Culven on this issue. I can completely see why Easter Egg Hunters would disagree.

[DarkLink]

It's actually an interesting issue, but I think I ultimately agree with Jwolf and Culven.

When the rolls for the transport and unit are combined, you do just that; combine them. You stop using the standard roll for each unit, and instead use a single roll to bring in the transport with the unit inside. That means the squad in the platoon would use a separate roll than the platoon, as it has switched over to a single roll combined with the transport's roll.

[BlueRonin]

I'm shocked that anyone looking for a reasonable answer would have a different opinion than Culven on this issue. I can completely see why Easter Egg Hunters would disagree.

Thanks JWolf - nice - I was asking about evidence and even you join the "He's an Easter Egg Hunter" name-calling band wagon.

I started by saying quite clearly that I like Culven's interpretation, but I was curious about the evidence. I have never seen any mention of handling non-dedicated transports any differently than dedicated transports with regards to this subject.

Furthermore, the answers I got from Culven, Nabterayl, etc. were all formulated as "I think" replies (as opposed to the specific references they usually provide in rules discussions), so I didn't see it as overly rude to reply with my own thoughts.

I feel a bit upset that by discussing these 'thoughts' I've obviously broken some rule of decorum on BoLS, so I'll wrap this up and drop teh subject.


Using your interpretation, what would happen if one had three infantry platoons of three squads with the three squads spread over three Valkyrie squads? With your "transport linked to the unit" interpretation, there is the possibility of a single successful Reserves roll for a platoon pulling all platoons and Valkyrie squads in at one time. By having the embarked units linked to the Transports, this is no possible.

Actually, 'my interpretation' would break this into three rolls due to three platoons (I've never indicated that a platoon would draw in another platoon, just everything within its own platoon structure), and each Valkyrie would have to do separate Outflanking rolls.

I doubt there would be any comment if the entire platoon was mounted in Chimeras (as they are dedicated transports), but since the example uses Valkyries there is obviously a distinction in how reserve rules handle dedicated vs. non-dedicated transports. I've just never seen this mentioned anywhere.

Thanks for the input and - again - sorry to drag it out: I'll stick to discussing such thoughts over a beer or something instead.

[Culven]

Actually, 'my interpretation' would break this into three rolls due to three platoons (I've never indicated that a platoon would draw in another platoon, just everything within its own platoon structure), and each Valkyrie would have to do separate Outflanking rolls.
So, are you saying that you would break up the Valkyrie Squads if only one Infantry Platoon were coming in from Reserves?

I doubt there would be any comment if the entire platoon was mounted in Chimeras (as they are dedicated transports), but since the example uses Valkyries there is obviously a distinction in how reserve rules handle dedicated vs. non-dedicated transports.
Actually, it isn't the Dedicated/Non-Dedicated Transport status that causes the problems. It is the fact that Valkyries are the first example of a Transport Vehicle Squadron in the game and there is no guidance given as to how they should interact with Infantry Platoons and Reserves. The most simplistic solution would have been to forbid sperading an Infantry Platoon over different Valkyrie Squads. Since that didn't happen, the next option (IMO) is to ignore which units are Embarked, and simply roll for Reserves for each Transport Unit. Without some kind of restriction, there is the possiblity of trying to argue against a player who is going to attempt a Reserves roll for each Platoon and each Valkyrie Squad while claiming that if any one of them arrives, then all others will as well.

[Jwolf]

BlueRonin - I did not, in fact, call you or anyone else an Easter Egg Hunter. I did say I could see the Easter Egg Hunter position, and how broken we can get by striping units across multiple Transport Squadrons. I do believe you're looking for evidence, and that we only have the actual RAW to guide us, which in no way helps. There is no rule written for how a Transport Squadron interacts with the multiple embarked units from multiple FOC multipart selections. Add the Platoon Reserve Rule, and you have a recipe for a really nasty mess, unless you take the path Culven suggests.

Sorry for the confusion - the Easter Egg Hunt has been going on for a lot longer than this conversation, and my reference was generally to that long-standing conversation, not to any particulars of this current thread.

[Lerra]

Could we add something to the BoLSCON FAQ regarding this? It seems like the type of thing that could use a FAQ ruling to nip the argument in the bud.

[BlueRonin]

BlueRonin - I did not, in fact, call you or anyone else an Easter Egg Hunter. I did say I could see the Easter Egg Hunter position, and how broken we can get by striping units across multiple Transport Squadrons. I do believe you're looking for evidence, and that we only have the actual RAW to guide us, which in no way helps. There is no rule written for how a Transport Squadron interacts with the multiple embarked units from multiple FOC multipart selections. Add the Platoon Reserve Rule, and you have a recipe for a really nasty mess, unless you take the path Culven suggests.

Sorry for the confusion - the Easter Egg Hunt has been going on for a lot longer than this conversation, and my reference was generally to that long-standing conversation, not to any particulars of this current thread.

In that case I have been unnecessarily sensitive to your comment, and in hindsight I agree there was no need to take it personal. So I see your apology and raise you one! :)

I also am grateful for hearing you point out that there is no evidence for this issue (because I can't find any), and so it becomes a RAI issue.


So, are you saying that you would break up the Valkyrie Squads if only one Infantry Platoon were coming in from Reserves?

Actually, it isn't the Dedicated/Non-Dedicated Transport status that causes the problems. It is the fact that Valkyries are the first example of a Transport Vehicle Squadron in the game and there is no guidance given as to how they should interact with Infantry Platoons and Reserves. The most simplistic solution would have been to forbid sperading an Infantry Platoon over different Valkyrie Squads. Since that didn't happen, the next option (IMO) is to ignore which units are Embarked, and simply roll for Reserves for each Transport Unit. Without some kind of restriction, there is the possiblity of trying to argue against a player who is going to attempt a Reserves roll for each Platoon and each Valkyrie Squad while claiming that if any one of them arrives, then all others will as well.

Very good point, Culven - I was so focused on the Platoon issue that I missed your point about splitting the Valkyrie Squadrons by 'cleverly' sorting out the squads in them - I hadn't considered that at all!

I've been reading a few different rules and having a think over the weekend, and that point reinforces where my thinking has been going:

In terms of what units are attached to which (considering what rules become overruled by others), it occurred to me that if a Valkyrie was attached to the infantry squad then there would be some precedence for the Valkyrie loosing its special abilities in the same manner that IC loose their special abilities (unless specifically stated) when being attached to a squad.

Since usually one unit's special rules supersedes another unit's when combined, I imagined that if all those Valkyries were attached to the Infantry Platoon (and thus came in on one roll), that would override the Valkyrie's special rules like Scout, etc.

Since that doesn't make any sense to me (I could never imagine that being the intention of the rules), it seems more plausible that the vehicle rules supersede the occupants' (i.e the Infantry Squads looses the platoon coherency special rule when mounted in a Valkyrie and thus isn't rolled for collectively). Also, following that reasoning it seems sensible that the fact that when a transport is 'dedicated' it relates to how some USR specifically transfer when an IC joins a unit - basically Dedicated Transports become the "specifically stated" case.

I don't know if it was possible to follow that line of reasoning, but the conclusion is that I now believe (like you've said) that when mounted in a non-dedicated transport, the unit is rolled for separately. Furthermore, that would lead me to argue that in Culven's example, there would be 6 reserve rolls: 1 for each of the three non-mounted Platoon Command Squads, and one for each Valkyrie Squadron (regardless of how the squads were sorted out inside them).

This is just interpretation with the loosest of precedence, however; I've yet to find anything that really establishes any evidence. However, I am at least far more comfortable with the interpretation now than I was last week - thanks!