English Pride.

[Mr Mystery]

Afternoon.

Just something I want to discuss. You see, as a Scot, I have a fairly clear idea of what it means to me to be a Scot, and a fair amount of pride in my place of birth. Despite various negative stereotypes, it's considered socially acceptable to be a proud Scot.

However, I feel for the English it's not quite the same. Certainly when I hear an Englishman declare himself a patriot, I don't think of Mr Smith, Acacia Avenue with his copy of the times, Bowler Hat and St George Cross waistcoat travelling into town for an honest days work, but this lot...

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5050474599809956&pid=1.7&w=266&h=155&c=7&rs=1&url=http%3a%2f%2farchbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com%2f2011%2f02%2fwriting-propaganda-for-edl.html

And that's a real shame. England has as much right as Scotland, Wales, Ireland and indeed the rest of the world to be proud of itself.

But it seems it's heritage has been hijacked by the far right. And that's not right.

So what can be done? It doesn't help that papers like the Daily Mail keep on printing lies, such as 'you're not allowed to fly the St George flag' in an effort to stoke middle England's persecution complex. But how can thoroughly non-mental Englishmen and Englishwomen (so that's 99.999999999999999999% recurring) take back their national identity from the lunatics?

Does it even bother you?

[DrLove42]

as a Scot, I

Just when I was starting to like you :P

It is a problem.

But I feel it comes from the institutionalised level of immigration. A lot of people feel "British" is watered down so to defend it they go to far

The same is true of Ireland as well though

[Mr Mystery]

Yet Scotland has retained a distinct identity, without it being taken over by the mentalists on either side of the political spectrum.

Britain is changing, and it remains multicultural (and has been since Roman times, quite possibly before!). Yet it seems many English people don't stand up and declare their pride, because the majority of those who do are shaven headed thugs with a deeply unpleasant world view :(

[DrLove42]

Maybe dont stand up and be proud because they don't want to be lumped with the others

At the same time, English people tend to get patriotic for the wrong reasons, usually due to overpaid people running around a field

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It's not immigration. "American" is an identity which embraces the fact that it's a melting pot of different cultures and traditions. E Pluribus Unum, innit. The idea that it's "immigration" which is somehow watering down "Englishness" is just what the right wants you to think.

The problem, really, is of course that we got rid of England. Yes, really. The United Kingdom supplanted the idea of England in the early 18th century (it's why the Queen is not the Queen of England). Later, the various other countries in and around the Union developed their own senses of self in opposition to the "English", and their own various independence movements come out of that (consider Ireland and Scotland, and to a much lesser extent, Wales: these places have identities defined in opposition). England has never really had its own narrative; we've never felt like we needed to have one. The United Kingdom controlled half the world after all; who needs a narrative when you have cold hard fact? The "celtic fringes" could pretend they had their own identities, but it was felt to be quaint, pointless, and mostly made up by Englishmen anyway (consider the career of Sir Walter Scott; also read up on where 'highland traditions' like clan tartans come from. There's a good Hugh Trevor-Roper article in Hobsbawm & Ranger, "The Invention of Tradition".)

Then the Empire ended, and Britain as a whole has been dealing generally quite badly with post-imperial decline. But Scotland, Wales, Ireland, these places all had narratives and ideas of themselves they could fall back on. England and the English didn't. So that's the nature of the malaise; it's also why racists, who DO have a strong narrative, tend to dominate the debate.

America has a strong identity/narrative because it was made up from whole cloth; they needed to invent something greater than the parts.

I would also honestly ask the question of whether it really matters. The nation-state is increasingly irrelevant in a globalised world of instant telecommunications and global capital anyway.

[Psychosplodge]

I don't Mystery, Some of the scots "patriotism" is quite scary. I was in Perth during either the World cup or European championships and the entire event was being celebrated in an anti english way( nobody was actually openly anti English, but the tshirts posters and signs in pubs etc...)

Most of us celebrate with the pastime of mocking colonials, continentals, and especially the french... (but we let you join in too with that)

[energongoodie]

Does it even bother you?

It bothers me :(

[DrLove42]

A lot of Scottish pride does seem to be "yay we're not English" and less "Ya we're scottish"

[Wolfshade]

I think some of the issue is that firstly there is the deep reserve whereby shouting about and lauding what you are is a little distasteful, then there is trying to distance yourself from right-wing elements, indeed it is strange how we celebrate St. Patrick's day when compared with St. George's Day. I think also, the notion of English is one that is changing and has always been based on migrant communities, the same way Scotland/Wales/Ireland has been, but they seem to have a fixed point in time where they became whatever and despite being formulated on a similiar history of invasion/immigration the notion of their nationality is very fixed. Indeed, perhaps part of the issue is that they have a national identify inspite being part of the UK, and it is that historic differences which makes them who they are. Scots are people who aren't English, whereas the identify of England and the UK seems to be intertwined, the act of Union brought everything under the English parliment, a very real version of this is when the individual nations play as seperate bodies, if you watch the 6 nations, Wales, Scotland and Ireland all have their own anthem (or two) then England have God Save the Queen, which is the UK anthem. So by rallying against Englishness they have condensed and forged a people's narrative and this is concentrated as they are seen as being lesser equals in the union.

[magickbk]

There are similar issues in the US. I think a lot of the issue stems back to the days of British Imperialism, and here to a lesser extent the events surrounding Manifest Destiny. Patriotism here or in Scotland, Ireland, and many other places became a way of rallying against what was seen as unfair foreign rule, and solidified a cultural identity. After the US won freedom, our government soon picked up a number of policies that did the same thing to other people and places (way to learn, US). The 'right' will often be outwardly patriotic. I think to the other side there is an amount of guilt to being publicly patriotic about a country that you know has done terrible things to make itself great; it doesn't mean those people aren't patriotic, they are just quietly so about the positive aspects of the country. In the northeast US, you will find people displaying patriotism far more about their city or state, than the country as a whole, and in this super-melting pot region, people also place a near-equal importance on where their family came from, to the point where in certain areas of Philly, you will see a lot more Irish and Italian flags than American.

[Wildeybeast]

I think Wolfie has the right of it. There has never been a fixed notion of Englishness. To suggest there is would imply there was, once upon a time, English People with English Values. Even a cursory understanding of the history of England's green and pleasant land shows it has always been a melting pot of groups of people from across the world and the English sense of identity has been based upon those groups simultaneously integrating with and opposing each other. Is the EDL really that different to Saxon uprisings after the Norman conquest? For everyone that wants Edgar Atheling as king or to kick Muslims out there is someone who names their child after the new king or goes for curry on a Friday night. It's hard to talk about being English when the people who use that term could at the same time be Danish or Saxon or French, Yorkist or Lancastrian, Royalist or Parlimentarian and so on. I consider myself to be English because this is my home and I'm proud of it, whatever it is.

[Psychosplodge]

I disagree with the melting pot Idea. There's been a thousand years with little immigration till the 50's and then the mess "New Labour" gave us.
Even the normans( not french) didn't bring that many people. The levies would have returned home, while the Nobles took new estates.
The Vikings are the biggest influence since the Anglo-saxons, till the modern day.

[Wolfshade]

I would suggest that the Normans influence was far bigger and more pervasive. There are vast tracks which the angles nor vikings never reached/conquered or settled.

[eldargal]

That's not quite true. Romani/Gypsies arrived in considerable numbers in the 16th century and alter, Huguenots from France in the 17th century in the tens of thousands, fifty or more from memory. Indians also started arriving in the 17th century with the establishment of permanenty British presence in the Subcontinent and South East Asia. The 18th century saw many thousands or low tens of thousands of African migrants, the nineteenth century an influx of Germans and other Europeans. Towards the end of the nineteenth century a very large number of Russian Jews arrived and settled, half a million more used Britain as a stepping stone to other countries. It certainly doesn't equal the influx of Anglo-Saxons (5-10% of the population at the time by some estimates) but it isn't as low as you might think either. The Huguenots would have been around 1% of the population at the time.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Britain's always had plenty of immigrants. The 'since the 50s/new labour' idea isn't based on evidence.

[Wildeybeast]

What all the above said. You could also add in a steady influx of Dutch migrants, particularly under William of orange. Furthermore, numbers are not required to make massive impact if you change the people at the top. The Norman conquest had major changes on the Saxon way of life, from the feudal system to language and religion and architecture. The Stuart's, Prince Philip of Spain, William of Orange, the Hannoverians and Prince Albert all had an impact.

[Psychosplodge]

That's not quite true. Romani/Gypsies arrived in considerable numbers in the 16th century and alter, Huguenots from France in the 17th century in the tens of thousands, fifty or more from memory. Indians also started arriving in the 17th century with the establishment of permanenty British presence in the Subcontinent and South East Asia. The 18th century saw many thousands or low tens of thousands of African migrants, the nineteenth century an influx of Germans and other Europeans. Towards the end of the nineteenth century a very large number of Russian Jews arrived and settled, half a million more used Britain as a stepping stone to other countries. It certainly doesn't equal the influx of Anglo-Saxons (5-10% of the population at the time by some estimates) but it isn't as low as you might think either. The Huguenots would have been around 1% of the population at the time.


Britain's always had plenty of immigrants. The 'since the 50s/new labour' idea isn't based on evidence.
London doesn't count.... :D
Well I can't argue with the history scholar, that's showing my gaps in historical knowledge...



What all the above said. You could also add in a steady influx of Dutch migrants, particularly under William of orange. Furthermore, numbers are not required to make massive impact if you change the people at the top. The Norman conquest had major changes on the Saxon way of life, from the feudal system to language and religion and architecture. The Stuart's, Prince Philip of Spain, William of Orange, the Hannoverians and Prince Albert all had an impact.


I would suggest that the Normans influence was far bigger and more pervasive. There are vast tracks which the angles nor vikings never reached/conquered or settled.

While I accept the big changes at the top will effect culture, I can't see how how the numbers mentioned can be used to describe A melting pot considering many of these groups would probably have been insular just for cultural reasons they probably wouldn't had any influence on most of the country, especially when transport links were less developed.

[Wolfshade]

I would also suggest, that the sense of national identity isn't that important on an island, you have the sea to physically seperate you. In mainland europe and other places with borders there is a lot of importance to identify you as different to your neighbour, be it language or culture. Compare the Austrian and German, both share the language but their culture and values are starkly dissimiliar. But then you get to areas like northern italy where they speak german and they consider themselves more german than italian and their culture aligns. So by sharing a common language there isn't the need to foster a seperation.

Also, identities are forged in conflict, and again our sea has provided a barrier against this, look at how the Gilbraltans and Islanders feel about their identities, very proud to be British and they fight for their cultral values against those who seek to oppress their way of life.

I would suggest that there was probably a much more focus on where you are from historically, as in which town/county but with the advent of the railways and the ability of people to move about the country at an unprecidented scale has watered that down.

[Psychosplodge]

I think the current trend for mass university edumacation is having an even greater effect than the railways.

[Deadlift]

"By this sacredness of individuals, the English have in seven hundred years evolved the principles of freedom".

And

"It is a mark of self confidence: the English have not spent a great deal of time defining themselves because they haven't needed to".

[Wildeybeast]

Psycho, I didn't use the term melting pot. I was just pointing out that the Nick Griffin idea that there was/is an idealised notion of Englishness is misplaced. Pick a point in time or an area of England and the idea of what it means to be English will change, as it has always done. Is being Protestant or catholic English? Is England an agricultural society or an industrialised one? Depends on when/where you are and who you ask. Ask joe blogs on they street today and chances are they will list activities/objects associated with the stereotypical idea of Englishness, or trot out stuff about being born here or where you parents are, but ask them to actually explain the English sense of identity and I'd wager most will struggle. We do lessons on it with the kids and they haven't got a clue.

[Psychosplodge]

Ah. Sorry. Indeed as you say it will always change over time. And I think I'll happily take DL's definition :D

[Wildeybeast]

Yes it is a good one. Where did it come form DL?

[eldargal]

I'm actually quite uncomfortable with the idea of English patriotism not because I don't love England but because it seems to un-English to boast about it. Let what we've achieved speak for itself sort of thing. Mind you there are people who would question my Englishness, despite being a subject of HM since birth I wasn't born here and it's all quite complicated.:rolleyes:

[YorkNecromancer]

I have a great deal of... well, I don't think I'd call it pride in being English. I like it here. A lot. Is that the same thing? For me, some of the reasons to like England specifically (as opposed to the UK as a whole) are:


We're inclusive; yes, obviously America is too, and there are people here who complain that's a bad thing, but I love the fact we'll pretty much take anyone. I've met people from all around the world in this little country, shared their cultures and their friendship over a cup of tea and a biscuit, and we've been able to do that because we're basically a pretty welcoming nation. I sat with an Austrian friend who had moved here because he loved it, and we were there chatting until the wee hours about the joys of comics and roleplaying games, and then we suddenly realised our grandfathers had probably tried to kill each other in WW2, but here we were, the best of friends, and all because England is so welcoming. Brilliant.
We distrust ostentations displays of passion made in public, but privately we care more passionately about all manner of matters both serious and silly than you would ever believe.
Hobbies. We are a nation that is collectively engaged in all manner of bonkers pastimes, from salsa dance to wargaming.
Satire is our lifeblood. There was a book written called "Crap Towns" and people complained that where they lived wasn't included. Everything you need to know about the English character is contained in that statement.
Our comics never really had superheroes, and those we do have are weird, and frequently evil. Consider that probably the most well known English comic character is Judge Dredd, a fascist police officer who is so trigger happy that his only long-term opponents have to be functionally immortal to withstand him. Compare him to the other great English superhero, The Doctor, who's this weird time-travelling pacifist, godlike alien (who also happens to be trying to atone for acts of genocide while dealing with the emptiness that immortality brings). Both derive from a clearly English sensibility that you don't really get in quite the same way elsewhere.
We're generally pretty accepting of homosexuality and religious freedoms (despite an increasing clamour from the peanut gallery against both).



Bottom line, I like England. We've got our problems, but we've got some pretty great things going off here, and I don't know if I need to feel proud of where I live. Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, after all. France is prettt great, Germany's lovely too. America gave us HBO. Canada's just nice. Yeah, the world's pretty great, apart from those villains who just want it all for themselves. Do I really need to feel proud of where I live? It's just a stretch of dirt at the end of the day.

[Deadlift]

Yes it is a good one. Where did it come form DL?

Ralph Emerson (American) and Jeremy Paxman.

[Deadlift]

I'm equally proud to be both English and British. You have all said quite eloquently what it means to be. But to me it's just about this country being my home. I love our country and I always will.

[Wildeybeast]

Ah good old Paxo.

[Mr Mystery]

I have a great deal of... well, I don't think I'd call it pride in being English. I like it here. A lot. Is that the same thing? For me, some of the reasons to like England specifically (as opposed to the UK as a whole) are:


We're inclusive; yes, obviously America is too, and there are people here who complain that's a bad thing, but I love the fact we'll pretty much take anyone. I've met people from all around the world in this little country, shared their cultures and their friendship over a cup of tea and a biscuit, and we've been able to do that because we're basically a pretty welcoming nation. I sat with an Austrian friend who had moved here because he loved it, and we were there chatting until the wee hours about the joys of comics and roleplaying games, and then we suddenly realised our grandfathers had probably tried to kill each other in WW2, but here we were, the best of friends, and all because England is so welcoming. Brilliant.
We distrust ostentations displays of passion made in public, but privately we care more passionately about all manner of matters both serious and silly than you would ever believe.
Hobbies. We are a nation that is collectively engaged in all manner of bonkers pastimes, from salsa dance to wargaming.
Satire is our lifeblood. There was a book written called "Crap Towns" and people complained that where they lived wasn't included. Everything you need to know about the English character is contained in that statement.
Our comics never really had superheroes, and those we do have are weird, and frequently evil. Consider that probably the most well known English comic character is Judge Dredd, a fascist police officer who is so trigger happy that his only long-term opponents have to be functionally immortal to withstand him. Compare him to the other great English superhero, The Doctor, who's this weird time-travelling pacifist, godlike alien (who also happens to be trying to atone for acts of genocide while dealing with the emptiness that immortality brings). Both derive from a clearly English sensibility that you don't really get in quite the same way elsewhere.
We're generally pretty accepting of homosexuality and religious freedoms (despite an increasing clamour from the peanut gallery against both).



Bottom line, I like England. We've got our problems, but we've got some pretty great things going off here, and I don't know if I need to feel proud of where I live. Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, after all. France is prettt great, Germany's lovely too. America gave us HBO. Canada's just nice. Yeah, the world's pretty great, apart from those villains who just want it all for themselves. Do I really need to feel proud of where I live? It's just a stretch of dirt at the end of the day.

I'd say everythinmg you listed should be celebrated in a country!

[Denzark]

Yorky - that Patriotism comment is about false patriotism, not the concept itself. By which I would associate EDL muppetry etc.

The EDL thing is unfortunate - because there should be a party that looks after the express interests of the English part of the tribe. And EDL would be as good a title as any. The EDL we all know and love is mainly protesting against Sharia Law and the Islamification of the UK. Indeed they started as a single issue protest group against Al-Mujahiroon(sp?) protesting during a home coming parade in Luton.

Basically, if you want to know what false patriotism is, I would say anybody who feels the need to emblazon 'ENGLAND' across a perfectly recognisable Cross of St George is a false patriot (stand fast the footy supporters, they probably aren't clever enough to know better).

Whilst I am well known for saying I am British by birth and English by the Grace of God, I mostly point that out to occasionally needle the celtic fringe, of whom I am actually quite fond - I tend to agree with EG that untoward displays of any passion, including jingoism, are undesireable.

Although having said that, when my Boss asks me how the troops are, I have been known to reply that 'The lads are game for a crack at Jerry, Sir!'

[YorkNecromancer]

Although having said that, when my Boss asks me how the troops are, I have been known to reply that 'The lads are game for a crack at Jerry, Sir!'

Actually reminds me of the most English line ever in any work of art. In the old Doctor Who serial "The Daemons", when confronted by a literal demon, Brigadier Sir Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart's only comment on the matter is possibly the most English utterance in the history of the world.

"Sergeant? Chap with the wings, five round rapid."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0grVDUL_en0

Brilliant stuff.

[Denzark]

OFF TOPIC - but why do people not like Sylvester McCoy? Its lines like that and things like the tank dalek make him my No2!

[YorkNecromancer]

ALSO OFF TOPIC: I have no idea. He's one of my favourite Doctors; really played the dark, manipulative edge well. "Remembrance of the Daleks" is still one of the best Dalek narratives ever. Plus, "Curse of Fenric" - I love the fact they establish that vampires are repelled by faith, so the Vicar repels them with a crucifix (but fails because he can't believe in a loving God due to The Problem Of Evil) the Communist Russian repels them with his belief in Communism, and the Doctor repels them by silently reciting the names of all of his companions, because he has faith in us. Just a magnificent bit of writing.

I think people just like to bash him because he was the Doctor under whose watch the show 'died'; lazy criticism, but par for the course really. The first few episodes with him were bad, but then, they were recovering from the godawful Colin Baker era, so, reasons.

[Wolfshade]

An associate of mine worked as a military spotter during the gulf war II and apparently there is a huge difference in culture, he would be talking in terms of please and thanks and being very understated, apparently the counter parts were more whooping and cheering.

To be understated is to be British.

[DarkLink]

Actually reminds me of the most English line ever in any work of art. In the old Doctor Who serial "The Daemons", when confronted by a literal demon, Brigadier Sir Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart's only comment on the matter is possibly the most English utterance in the history of the world.

"Sergeant? Chap with the wings, five round rapid."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0grVDUL_en0

Brilliant stuff.

This should be a thread: what single quote represents your culture best.

[Psychosplodge]

To be understated is to be British.

Indeed. I was watching something on yesterday about korea and a british regiment was holding back a massive advance, low on ammunition, and when asked by an allied commander their situation, Bit of a sticky wicket old chap which johnny foreigner didn't realise meant they required reinforcing...

[Psychosplodge]

I was discussing this thread and was given a brilliant definition,


It's like pornography, you can't define it but you know it when you see it.

[Dave Mcturk]

not sure this thread belongs on a wargames site ! but yeah...
try : "Empire, [what ruling the world did to the british]": Paxman; published 2011.
but just as a precis: Britain was re-created between 1590 and 1707, by which time 'england' had ceased to exist as a separate country ... apart from as geographical and economic glue that held/holds the empire/country together. [if we ignore the fact that the ancient britons - romans - anglo-saxons - and lastly the vikings{commonly known as normans in britain} all ruled britain as a single country from time to time and NEVER subdivided the country by 'race' just by geography]. The last time the 'english' existed before their victorian 're-invention' was well before 1066 ! This Country {BRITAIN} would be far better off if everyone was 'proud' of being British and studied a bit more history. [not that national pride is entirely without its problems!]

[Dave Mcturk]

Although having said that, when my Boss asks me how the troops are, I have been known to reply that 'The lads are game for a crack at Jerry, Sir!'

Actually reminds me of the most English line ever in any work of art. In the old Doctor Who serial "The Daemons", when confronted by a literal demon, Brigadier Sir Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart's only comment on the matter is possibly the most English utterance in the history of the world.

"Sergeant? Chap with the wings, five round rapid."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0grVDUL_en0

Brilliant stuff.

and a chap called Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart is so obviously english ... pms&dl

but yes great line

[Dave Mcturk]

scratch and 'englishman' and find an immigrant...
if you do a mitchondrial dna test you find a large percentage of 'english' dna in the old anglo saxon counties that used to make up the kindom of mercia...

and yes once an 'english' king ruled all of what could loosely have been called 'britain' at the time ... including parts of sweden and denmark, most of norway and iceland and probably parts of other far flung countries ....

but politics and geography aside... 'england' is just a flag to hang someones identity on... it has no real defining characteristics of its own ... other than being the 'heart' of an empire from the now distant and diminishing past... when the number of 'english' made up less than a twentieth of the empire... [are they all now still english ?]...

{perhaps they could call themselves 'greater londoners'}[or southerners ?]

and the other great tool of 'englishness' commonly called 'the english language' isnt 'english' at all but a mixture of languages more germanic than anything else... and if the historians were asked to name it five thousand years from now it will be called 'middle northern european' ... ... and though we [british] laugh at the americans ... most of them speak 'english' more correctly than we do... [try; "A history of the english language" : Baugh & Cable : 1951.]

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Amused to see that my thesis what I thought of myself is also Paxo's thesis what he thought of himself. I haven't read the book. Glad I'm probably not barking up totally the wrong tree.

[Psychosplodge]

Mr. Mcturk, I disagree. English shares a common root with germanic languages, but it is it's own language, and to suggest that Americans speak it more correctly is a joke. You're basically saying that while we've had two hundred and fifty years of evolution of the language from a common point, American English has stood still, which is a ridiculous notion.

[Wolfshade]

To claim that American English is more correct is to say that there is a single fixed type of language, which is a bit of a joke. The English language has always evolved and changed, indeed if you compare shakespear, the wycliffe bible, the lindisfarne gosepels and any modern source you will see that the language is very different, now are any of one these correct? No.

Indeed, we are from a language point of view travelling in a strange direction, usually with time languages become more seperate and dialects break off and form their own language from a common root, but instead with first the trains and now the internet english is moving towards a common point.

Indeed as recently as the 20th century a regiement of cumbrian soliders went to iceland and we readily understood by the "natives" as at that time the cumbrian dialect was more norse than "english" and so after accounting for the accent there were little communication difficulties.

Such stories are replicated all over the place with communities dialects reflecting previous language forms rather than the current, indeed there are phrases and idomins from pockets of communities all over the shop which are so non-standard english that even when accounting for accent they are not understandable.

To say it is merely Germanic is a bit of an over simplification, while the root must come from the angles from west germany, there is also huge influences from norman which is more of a latin root and as the angles had more contact with natives then the language evolved to include "celtic" forms. Then as academics lead the language yet more greek and latin loan words were included as this was the language of academia, and it was academics who wrote

[Wildeybeast]

Mcturk should also be aware that the Vikings are not commonly known as Normans. We had Viking invasions and even Viking kings, but the Saxons had driven them out by the time the Normans had arrived. Indeed, one of the reasons the Saxon king Harold lost the battle of hastings was that he had just defeated a Danish invasion only days before, the Danes believing they had a valid claim to the English throne having held it only 50 odd years before. The Normans were originally Vikings who settled in/conquered northern France and had spent several generations breeding with the French, not just biologically but linguistically and culturally. They were as distinct from the Vikings as they were from the French by the time they invaded England.

Furthermore, none of the groups he mentioned ever managed to rule the whole of Britain. Most of them barely even managed to rule the whole of England.

[Wolfshade]

I think the entymology of British words is brilliant, they tell you a lot about the history and every so often there is a curve ball, like near me a place called Tardebigge.

The etymology of the name is uncertain. Several theories exist on the origins, but they remain largely disputed. One such theory suggests that the name Tardebigge means ‘tower on the hill’.

The name Tærdebicga (whose dative case is Tærdebicgan) does not appear to have any likely meaning in Anglo-Saxon or Celtic or any other likely known language, and may be a stray survival from whatever aboriginal (perhaps Pre-Indo-European) language was spoken in England before the Celts came

[Psychosplodge]

I think a good example is Shipley and Skipton.
About 15 miles apart
Both apparently mean sheep town.
Ones Viking, the other Anglo-Saxon.

[Wolfshade]

Some of it is pretentiousness, the Norman conquest brought in a French based dialect which was spoken by the ruling elite so there was a doubling of words the old english, it is most notable in things like food names beef and pork (french-root) for cow and pig (germanic root).

[Wildeybeast]

The general rule of thumb there is that when it is in the field it has a Saxon name and when it is on the table it has a Norman one. The Normans didn't like to use uncouth Saxon words for their fine dining, nor think about the grubby peasants who had produced the food for them.

[Denzark]

and a chap called Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart is so obviously english ... pms&dl

but yes great line

In the interests of pedantry (and because there is a slight whiff of bridling jockanese about your 2 responses) I must point out that Yorky said it was a good English line - not that the character is English...