Eldar AA

[Stone Edwards]

I was just wondering what other Eldar players out there use as their AA. I have been putting a crimson hunter in my list but it dies so easily it seems like one quad with interceptor (never mind Tau with 1-3 riptides) would kill it before it had a chance to do anything. I have heard that just shooting a crap ton of SL shots at flyers has been the best choice or to just take a Aegis with quad gun. However I feel like going against a 3xDrake list those options might not be reliable enough. EMLs on walkers are an idea but damn expensive...Thoughts?

[Tyrendian]

one option is a Dark Reaper Exarch with Fast Shot on an Icarus... he and his buddies can put a world of hurt on Marines/Crisis Suits/whatever, and in your opponent's turn you've got 2 BS5 Icarus shots intercepting whatever they've got... quite expensive though...
other than that, Guided War Walkers and/or Spiders are utterly lethal, especially if the Spiders can get into the rear...
it's not like most other armies had that many more options than we do either - Tau are the exception here, and we can still hope for the upcoming Stalker/Hunter to put an end to HellTurkeyHammer...

[El_Davo]

i use a crimson hunter as well, never the exarch though, and an aegis with a dark reaper exarch on the las cannon with fast shot. the range finders ignore jink saves, so if he hits, he pretty much kills what ever flyer gets in his way. if he doesnt kill the crimson hunter will mop up what ever is left or will go tank hunting if the dark reaper killed his target.

[Ravingbantha]

You can also give your War Walkers Flakk Missiles, giving you another AA option that can also be used elsewhere if needed.

[Archon Charybdis]

You can also give your War Walkers Flakk Missiles, giving you another AA option that can also be used elsewhere if needed.

For 10pts more though you can get War Walkers with Scatter Lasers and a Farseer to Guide them. It'll be better against everything except AV12 flyers.

[Ravingbantha]

For 10pts more though you can get War Walkers with Scatter Lasers and a Farseer to Guide them. It'll be better against everything except AV12 flyers.

true, but then your forced to keep your farseer on your walkers as opposed to elsewhere and of course you cant stack the re-rolls to my knowledge, so guide and laser lock wont combine. And with ML's you can also change out their priority once the flyer(s) are dealt with.

Personally I like the idea of putting my farseer with Illic or Karahandras in a wraithguard/blade unit to get them in close and have some fun.

[Stone Edwards]

true, but then your forced to keep your farseer on your walkers as opposed to elsewhere and of course you cant stack the re-rolls to my knowledge, so guide and laser lock wont combine. And with ML's you can also change out their priority once the flyer(s) are dealt with.

Personally I like the idea of putting my farseer with Illic or Karahandras in a wraithguard/blade unit to get them in close and have some fun.

Well if you have double SLs they can't laser lock themselves (as the rule says all weapons with that special rule are fired first) so the farseer becomes more useful. I really do like the sound of the EMLs since with Flakk they can be effective against just about everything, but they are just so expensive! Just equipping 2 walkers with 1 each w/flakk would be 50pts. I dunno maybe that's worth it though since a basic CH is 160 plus almost requiring an Autarch to make sure it arrives when you want it. You'd need at least 3 flakk missiles to come close to guarantee taking down a flyer in a turn, where as the CH WILL take down another flyer unless you just roll really really horribly.

Anyways the reapers on an aegis sound good but all my HS slots are taken up in my all comers list : /. Not sure if dropping the walkers, a prism, or a wraith knight would be a good trade....

[Ravingbantha]

The only problem I have with reapers on the line is their a static point, with walkers you can keep on the move. Plus your dedicating your reapers to a single job of flyer control. Your walkers can move between flyer, troop, or vehicle control. They also get to scout in, and have an invulnerable save. But in the end, it comes down to play style and what suits each player best. Wasn't so much trying to get into a debate as to which is best, just offering an option to the reaper static line that everyone seems to go for.

[Tyrendian]

The only problem I have with reapers on the line is their a static point, with walkers you can keep on the move. Plus your dedicating your reapers to a single job of flyer control. Your walkers can move between flyer, troop, or vehicle control. They also get to scout in, and have an invulnerable save. But in the end, it comes down to play style and what suits each player best. Wasn't so much trying to get into a debate as to which is best, just offering an option to the reaper static line that everyone seems to go for.

while yes, the Reapers will be static, they are really not restricted to anti-flyer... the whole squad (including the Exarch) can fire their weapons in your own shooting phase (and there's usually a juicy target for that...), and in the opponent's phase the exarch can intercept with the Icarus (Interceptor says the weapon may not be fired in your next shooting phase, not that the model may not fire).

But yes, a lack of Heavy Support slots is what often keeps me from using Reapers as well... one possible solution for that would be using Bel-Annath as your farseer, as he gives you an additional HS slot (if you have the other slots to spare...)

[eldargal]

Reapers aren't that static, they can move and shoot afterall. More static than war walkers but so are most things.

[Lost Vyper]

I´ve used (in the last three games) DR´s + Aegis + Icarus + Fast Shot (and if i have the points, Nightvision for that 5th to 7th rounds of action)= Properly placed, they´ll be the best choice. Remember, that the Icarus doesn´t have to be connected to the Aegis...there´s a HUGE way of giving WW´s some 4+ cover while putting DR´s in ruins top floor with Icarus. This caused some debate in our FLGC, but there´s no RAW to deny this...Some how i´ve managed to keep my Crimson up and running in multiple games, but that´s how the dice been rolling (my way). But in the last game, opponent had no AA, so it basically won me the game...WW´s are a no-brainer for me, cos i use them (almost) in every list, but i seldom use SL+BL to shoot Stormravens...Air-to-air combat is so boring, cos who ever goes second wins :)

[eldargal]

Fortifications are deployed first, so you can't deploy them on a ruin as ruined are deployed later. Ruins and tall structures do make excellent Icarus LoS blockers though, slap one down right in front and limits its arc of fire significantly.

[cebalrai]

Fortifications are deployed first, so you can't deploy them on a ruin as ruined are deployed later. Ruins and tall structures do make excellent Icarus LoS blockers though, slap one down right in front and limits its arc of fire significantly.


Honestly I don't feel like I need much AA with Eldar. I just put a SL wave serpent into the flyer's rear arc and unload.

[Stone Edwards]

Fortifications are deployed first, so you can't deploy them on a ruin as ruined are deployed later. Ruins and tall structures do make excellent Icarus LoS blockers though, slap one down right in front and limits its arc of fire significantly.

Well unless you house rule it to work like many tournaments and you put the terrain down first :p. I dunno if it's a non tournament game I would feel pretty douchey doing something like you described. If event points are on the line or it's just someone I really really want to beat though then all bets are off!

I don't know I had an epiphany while I was thinking about what AA to include. My main opponent plays Tau and I have been really jealous of how awesome his Riptide is for just about any shooting task (AA, interceptor, killing hordes, etc...) and I've always wished I had something like that. Well for some reason up to this point I have never considered running allies for some reason and last night I thought why the hell not?! Soooooo gonna go ahead and throw a small tau allied attachment in to see how that goes.

So far I have: a commander w/CnC, MSS, and Puretide; a riptide w/ion acc., velocity tracker, and early warning; a min kroot squad with sniper rounds.

Thinking at the start of the game the commander will deploy with the riptide to give him rerolls and ignores cover for a turn or two before leaving to go help out some troops somewhere (since his abilities can transfer to allied units he joins) and I'll just use the Kroot in place of my rangers to just sit and hold some back line objective, maybe go after a MC if needed.

I've been trying to decide between taking broadsides instead of the riptide or going for a farsight enclave ally and taking crisis suits instead of Kroot (would lose all the awesome commander gear though). Anyone have any suggestions or experience with Tau allies?

[eldargal]

Well unless you house rule it to work like many tournaments and you put the terrain down first :p. I dunno if it's a non tournament game I would feel pretty douchey doing something like you described. If event points are on the line or it's just someone I really really want to beat though then all bets are off!
That's really quite silly when you consider how many people complain about quad guns being OP at tournaments and whatnot. It's no more douchey than people who take as many quad guns as they can and sit high BS characters with USRs like Fast Shot on them in my opinion. If it is neutering flyers too effectively in your meta I wouldn't feel qualms about shoving terrain in front of them. If people don't spam quad guns then I certainly wouldn't be so mean.

[Stone Edwards]

That's really quite silly when you consider how many people complain about quad guns being OP at tournaments and whatnot. It's no more douchey than people who take as many quad guns as they can and sit high BS characters with USRs like Fast Shot on them in my opinion. If it is neutering flyers too effectively in your meta I wouldn't feel qualms about shoving terrain in front of them. If people don't spam quad guns then I certainly wouldn't be so mean.

Well that's why I said I would feel bad doing that at non tournament games...aka fun games. If people around here spammed quads so much that flyers were un-usable though that would be another story as well and I wouldn't feel bad blocking them either.

[Lost Vyper]

Yep, we build the table first, then throw for sides --> fortifications --> throw for who goes first...it works for us...

[Asuryan]

Thinking at the start of the game the commander will deploy with the riptide to give him rerolls and ignores cover for a turn or two before leaving to go help out some troops somewhere (since his abilities can transfer to allied units he joins) and I'll just use the Kroot in place of my rangers to just sit and hold some back line objective, maybe go after a MC if needed.

I never understand why people think they can attach a commander to a riptide. MC's are single model units and can't be joined by IC's so your commander's abilities will only benefit the kroot squad.

[Stone Edwards]

I never understand why people think they can attach a commander to a riptide. MC's are single model units and can't be joined by IC's so your commander's abilities will only benefit the kroot squad.

Because riptides can take drones which makes them not single model units and thus able to be joined by ICs

[Asuryan]

Because riptides can take drones which makes them not single model units and thus able to be joined by ICs

No it means that you can buy wargear options of drones, and not changing their unit type. Just like Lone Wolves can take fenrisian wolves but can't join a squad or be joined by IC's.

[Stone Edwards]

No it means that you can buy wargear options of drones, and not changing their unit type. Just like Lone Wolves can take fenrisian wolves but can't join a squad or be joined by IC's.

Pg 39 of brb: ics can join other units. They cannot however join vehicle squadrons or units that always consist of a single model (such as MOST vehicles and mcs).

Even though drones are war gear they are in fact still models and thus a riptide unit does not always consist of a single model. If you still disagree please provide a pg number to a relevant rule or an FAQ.

[chorde]

Can't comment on the riptides as I don't have the codex but I have been playing a few games with eldar against turkeys, flying mc's, necron flyers and impgaurd. I used the crimson hunter (exarch) in a lot of games, was very handy when dealing with gunships and vendettas, turkeys ect but found I really needed to take an autarch so I can come in after the enemy flyers arrived. Love my crimson hunter :)
probably wont use it 1850 pts or less though.

After many trials I now use 4 units for AA. 2 serpents (scats), walkers (shuri can), 1 autocannon turret/fortification manned by eldrad/farseer attached to 20 gaurd with 2 scats and warlock with prim power. Each unit has twinlinked ability, guide allows u to have your walkers 24" away. Minimum of 12 str 6 shots or higher per unit.

My last battle was against DE, we are building lists for a cheese tournamant. He took a traitorous eldar detachment :P which included a crimson hunter, he also ran the DE equivalent. I had no flyers, and even though he took out the gun emplacement before they arrived (6 venoms-the avatar didnt last long either against that amount of poison shots lol) a waveserpent which survived an attack from a ravager and both flyers (1 hull point left) then unloaded all its shots and brought down the crimson hunter. Eldrad cast re rolls to hit, doom and foreboading? (re roll all successfull saves) and they removed 2 hull points forcing the DE flyer off the board in the process. This example only 2 flyers, armour 11 and armour 10, took 1 unit to eliminate 1 flyer, which allowed my walkers, other serpent and 2 fire prisms to shoot ground targets. WW, serpents and the 20 gaurdians with 2x scatts on quad gun are multi task, they will kill flyers, light-medium vehicles and troops of all description from a safe distance. Initially I was thrown off my ulthwe list, but not now :)

worried about helldrakes? spread them out, its amazing how useful battlefocus can be for this. I am finding if my oponent is heavy in flyers I can do a world of hurt in the 1st turn of shooting, target priority when they have less on the board gets real easy hehe. Hope this helps.

[Lord Krungharr]

The Riptide joining a Commander is a really contentious issue right now, and I see both sides of the argument. One of the big FAQ needs right now, along with many others (GW are such slackers!). Since Eldar are Battle Bros with Space Marines (aren't they?) why not get a new AA tank for an Allied detachment? Just model some Eldarian details like they looted it. And get Tigurius as an HQ while you're at it for extra Prescience. That would really disturb we Chaos followers to see that on the other side of the table!

But back to the main question, whilst the Icarus Cannon can be a good AA solution for many armies, it only gives you 1 chance, and that chance is not always an Explosion result. But coupled with a bunch of krak missiles at 48" with rerolling missed To Hit rolls, that may be very worthwhile, and not just vs Flyers.

Just like any other tough nut to crack, volume of shots is key, so the Wave Serpent with the Serpent Shield and Scatter Lasers? (I'm not an Eldar player, though I have beat them down many time :) ) would be a good answer. A unit of 18 Horrors w a Herald w Locus of Conjuration can generate 4D6 S6 shots with Prescience, that has downed a few Flyers, but the Wave Serpent doesn't even have to pass a psychic test or get DTWd, so I'd say that's the Eldar's best overall AA option, aside from a bunch of Dark Reapers (which look cool too).

[Poseidal]

They aren't Battle Bros, but they can ally. Tiggy won't help, as he can't target the Eldar units and vice versa.

[Da Gargoyle]

Am I missing something here? With laser lock a big chance, it seems to me a Falcon armed with SL and S/Cannon would make a decent alternative AA, laser lock first with the SL and then blast away at the flyers with the pulse laser and cannon. 5 shots on a re-roll is likely to make life miserable for most flyers.

The same could be done with the Walkers, 1 x SL and a EML on each walker, and you don't necessarily need to pay extra for the AA option.

In terms of Quads etc... I have usually targeted them or the troops firing them 1st turn because of their threat to my skimmers. If you pin, kill or make the troops run away, there is an option to capture the gun also. That is where Dark Reapers come in, the exarch with a tempest launcher is likely to negate cover saves because it is barrage. Take that Marksman's eye thingy also and they get quite deadly.

[Lord Krungharr]

huh, I thought for sure the SMs and Eldar were Battle Bros. Oh well, I play neither, so that's good by me!

I played an Eldar army yesterday with 3 Wave Serpents vs my 2400 point Khorne Daemons/CSM army, and he unloaded all 3 Serpents ( and more) onto my Bloodthirster and failed to Ground him. Alas, the Thirster did not go down! I guess vs flying Vehicles they might do better, as a Jink or 5+ invul is not nearly as good as a 3+ armor save. Then the Thirster and Daemon Prince proceeded to Decapitate a Wraithknight....but Eldrad had his vengeance on the Thirster and Force Weaponed it. But I digress.......

[DarkLink]

Am I missing something here? With laser lock a big chance, it seems to me a Falcon armed with SL and S/Cannon would make a decent alternative AA, laser lock first with the SL and then blast away at the flyers with the pulse laser and cannon. 5 shots on a re-roll is likely to make life miserable for most flyers.

You can do a little damage to flyers. It doesn't mean that Wave Serpents are great against them. One Wave Serpent will probably get in maybe two str 6 and 1-2 str 7 hits, and most Flyers are AV11-12 (and all the OP flyers are 12, and the Heldrake gets a 5++ on top of that), so your odds of actually killing something aren't very good. Better than nothing, but you're not making life miserable for much more than Eldar/Ork flyers.



The same could be done with the Walkers, 1 x SL and a EML on each walker, and you don't necessarily need to pay extra for the AA option.

You think one TL str 8 shot will do much to a Flyer?

[Stone Edwards]

5 shots on a re-roll is likely to make life miserable for most flyers.

They are still hitting on 6s. 5 shots has an average chance of 0-1 hitting and with rerolls 1-2 hitting. Since we still have to then glance/pen most likely on a 5+ (unless you're against other eldar) we're still looking at maybe 1 pen a turn.

[biffster666]

Icarus Lascannon+Dark Reaper+Farseer

I'm currently tweaking two take on all comers armies. One is 1200pts and the other 1750pts. A three man Dark Reaper squad with Farseer in the 1200pt army and a five man Dark Reaper squad with a Farseer in the 1750pt army.

Dark Reapers with Starshot Missiles. Exarch with ML, Flak missiles, Fast Shot, Night Vision. Farseer with Uldanorethi Long Rifle. One Rune of Fate and two Divination powers. Worst case scenario with psychic powers still gives the squad to hit re-rolls from the Primus Div/Fate powers. Doom (Armor Pen reroll) , Misfortune (Helldrake has to roll 5++ twice), Perfect Timing, and Forewarning (duh) are great as well.

The Exarch is primary IL gunner, the Farseer is secondary. The Exarch can fire 2 BS5 S9 AP2 (+1 to damage chart roll!) Skyfire/Interceptor/Twin linked/Ignores Jink shots during your opponents turn and then 2 BS5 S7 AP4 Skyfire/Twin Linked/Ignores Jink Flak missiles during your turn. The Farseer (also BS5) is on the IL if no Interceptor shots were fired or he's shooting the Long Rifle. The other Dark Reapers fire Starshot missiles. Worried about them being assualted? Got it covered, but that's a different topic.

[Garradh]

As a Wraith army player I haven't ever tried established AAA. With a Farseer and two Spiritseers I have used Guide/Prescience or Spirit Mark to shoot down flyers with my Wraithguard. Unorthodox but so far effective (and surprising). Not something I would recommend. Normally I plan to take their first round on the chin and then use SL War Walkers with Guide to shoot down flyers.

[Da Gargoyle]

Hay guys, I think you might have missed my point, the following comments don't seem to recognise that I was talking about a Falcon.


You can do a little damage to flyers. It doesn't mean that Wave Serpents are great against them. One Wave Serpent will probably get in maybe two str 6 and 1-2 str 7 hits, and most Flyers are AV11-12 (and all the OP flyers are 12, and the Heldrake gets a 5++ on top of that), so your odds of actually killing something aren't very good. Better than nothing, but you're not making life miserable for much more than Eldar/Ork flyers.

&


They are still hitting on 6s. 5 shots has an average chance of 0-1 hitting and with rerolls 1-2 hitting. Since we still have to then glance/pen most likely on a 5+ (unless you're against other eldar) we're still looking at maybe 1 pen a turn.

You are both right in that with a WS the odds are still against you with a TL scatter laser and Shuriken Cannon. But a Scatter laser causes laser lock which means all the other weapons on a Falcon become twin linked. So that is 4 attempts with a S8 pulse laser and 6 with the S6 rending shuriken cannon. That helps the odds a bit and glance enough you could drop em out of the sky.

Having said that, I am not noted for being the chosen one of the dice gods, but I have lost Falcons and Wave Serpents to Ork Lootas in a round of shooting simply because of volume of fire. Nothing is for sure though.

[biffster666]

I keep seeing a lot of examples of 1-3 ground units with no AA being used a lot for AA which means they aren't firing at stuff they really should be in favor of spray and pray. Eldar have ground units with AA that are useful for both AA/Ground fire missions. Dark Reapers = no Jink also, and add dash of Farseer and you have dead flyers very fast and they can easily switch to pounding ground targets from lllloooonnggggg range are one example. War Walkers that could get 3 ML another.

Volume of fire is kewl, but the difference between a WS with SL and S-Cannon and full 15 Lootas (who are shooting at a ground unit so 5-6 whohooo!!!) is HUGE. The WS is putting out 13 shots with at least the SL twin linked (need that 6 still!!) best case is the 13 shots twin linked. I'll take the Twin linked IL and Reaper Exarch with Nightvision/Fast shot twin linked ML, providing 2 S9 and 2 S7 shots (2 S9 shots also with Interceptor)don't roll 1's with rerolls over 13 roll 6's with rerolls . But that's just me :D