Female Space Marines [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

Bean

11-19-2009, 09:28 AM

Exactly, Melissia. If you look at medieval armor, though, most of it looked like that. Breast plates were frequently made with bulges much larger than were necessary to accommodate the wearer's chest. Often, there was even a pronounced keel, like this breastplate (http://www.armor.com/armor023.html), here.

If you look at the breastplates on marine models, they're enormous and have a pretty substantial bulge. I doubt the marine's chest fills in that breastplate anywhere near entirely.

So, sure. You might need a somewhat more pronounced bulge, but it would still be a piece of armor which looked very much like normal marine armor.

edit: Steele has a point, too. It doesn't seem unreasonable at all to suggest that breasts on a woman having gone through the marine-making process, if they remained at all, would be substantially undersized compared to the woman's newly enlarged body, and perhaps even shrunk substantially from their former size due to the hormonal manipulation she'd undergone, making them an even less significant issue when it came to armor-fitting.

Anyway, I maintain that anyone could plop down a bog-standard marine-with-helmet model and tell me that it is a female marine from his chapter of female marines and I wouldn't mind at all--the model would seem entirely appropriate within that context.

Gotthammer

11-19-2009, 09:30 AM

Well it would require some serious retcons to the fluff but that's never stopped GW before...

Actually it wouldn't - go into your local GW and say you're thinking of having female marines in your army. If you get told it can't be done ask the redshirt to show you a source that disproves it.

There are currently no in print books that explicitly forbid female marines. The only sources that do have it are the WD article from many moons ago subsequently reprinted in the RT Compendium and more recently in Index Astartes. There was also a second WD article by Andy Chambers (I think, could be wrong), where he answered questions about marine physiology - also where marine sterility comes from. So if a new player who is yet to trawl Lexicanum or the various marine forums (or just has no internet) has no explicit limitations on who can become a marine save humans only. I'm sure someone will quote from it eventually, but it's one line that if it goes away removes all the issues.

All the current codexes are vauge about the process, and the Sapce Wolf codex says "ordinary adolescant human." The human bit is rather redundant, and if they were keeping marineness "members only" they could easily said "ordinary adolescant male". I don't think it's a conspiracy by GW by any means, more that they want to keep options open for people to do their own thing, which is a trend in all their materials of late.

And yes, I use female marines - mostly because it makes a change from painting bald screaming dudes.

Melissia

11-19-2009, 09:33 AM

Exactly. If you look at medieval armor, though, most of it looked like that. Breast plates were frequently made with bulges much larger than were necessary to accommodate the wearer's chest. Often, there was even a pronounced keel, like this breastplate (http://www.armor.com/armor023.html), here.

If you look at the breastplates on marine models, they're enormous and have a pretty substantial bulge. I doubt the marine's chest fills in that breastplate anywhere near entirely.

So, sure. You might need a somewhat more pronounced bulge, but it would still be a piece of armor which looked very much like normal marine armor.

On that we certainly agree. That's one of the things I hate about the second edition Sisters models (Which are the models that we are STILL using even in fifth editions) are the fact that their "boob cups" are so huge, bigger than their heads even (okay, so that's an exaggeration, but my point stands :P). Female martial artists (I have been one in the past, though I was by no means a black-belt) typically bind their chest a bit when going through their routines or when sparring anyway, and I don't see why the Sisters wouldn't do the same when going into a combat situation. Not necessarily bound tight enough to restrict air flow, but more than enough to make their presence far, FAR less so than what GW puts on their art and models...

Commissar Lewis

11-19-2009, 10:05 AM

^ Could be a design element to attract people to buy the models, as guys do like boobs. As impractical as it is.

I'm sorry, that was rather ignorant and ill-thought out. I've been awake for 24 hours straight; I'm a bit foggy.

Gotthammer

11-19-2009, 10:12 AM

And having a large concave area in the centre of your chest is a bad idea from a purely protective POV as it's a huge shot trap. Here's a good discussion on the topic (regarding medieval armour, but still valid): http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/384382.html

Commissar Lewis

11-19-2009, 10:17 AM

All good points, but I'm running on fumes at this point and really should be getting off the forums. Sleep-deprived and drunk are two states that do not make for intelligent debate.

DarkLink

11-19-2009, 11:50 AM

Technically it could very well have breast bulges, but boob-cups just aren't practical. It channels a bullet into the center of the chest. A piece of female armor designed practically would have a slight bulge in the chest (anatomy is anatomy after all), but it would not have a depression between the breasts.

Something like this:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/FemKnight.jpg

But how can GW conform to questionable stereotypes then? /jk

Yeah, a lot of medieval armor made the wearer look like they had great big potbellies, because that curvature was really good at deflecting incoming weapons and projectiles.

Lindargo

11-19-2009, 11:56 AM

I have to agree, a squad of female Eldar would be cool. (nobody say banshees...)
Maybe a bits pack could be produced with 10 female heads would be cool. (a space marines chest is big enough anyway!)
Lin,

Gotthammer

11-19-2009, 12:28 PM

I am doubtful of most of GW's sculptors abilities to sculpt decent female faces, so go Hasslefree: http://hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/range.php?range_id=60

Melissia

11-19-2009, 12:35 PM

But that's no reason for them not to try. Imagine if they made such beautiful models, full of detail and looking like actual females, but without going to blatant and easy route of the boob-cups-- A great deal of people might purchase those models just to purchase them, not even ever intending to play the army, just like how people purchase Repentia even though the squad's rules are amongst the bottom three of all units in 40K.

Lerra

11-19-2009, 12:58 PM

The newer female Fantasy models from GW look fine to me. I don't see any reason why new 40k models wouldn't be up to that standard. GW's sculpting team has gotten a lot better since 2nd ed.

I'd love to see more female models from GW. It would mean less time hunting down female models from other companies, and less time converting.

Even if it doesn't attract more female gamers, lots of people enjoy painting and fielding female models. Especially when by the fluff, there should be a good percentage of females in certain armies (IG, Eldar, possible DE?).

Just_Me

11-19-2009, 12:58 PM

I refuse to walk in the hellish debating mire that is the question “can women be Astartes,” and would advise others to do the same. I will however say this much, the masculine/feminine labels have no relevance for marines; from a biological perspective they refer only to structural differences related to reproduction, which marines do not do, and from a sociological perspective they refer to differences in gender roles in society, which are irrelevant to marines as all of them are BY DEFINITION expected to fill the same warrior role. The exclusively masculine terms used by the Astartes are a holdover to denote comradeship with the gender assignment having little real meaning.

Guardswomen on the other hand are something I can really get behind. In logical terms there is no biological basis for women not serving alongside men on a modern battlefield. In ancient time the superior upper body strength of men is what made them the nearly exclusive choice for soldiers, this was a huge factor when your only mode of attack was muscle driven (i.e. bashing someone with a blunt/sharp object or drawing back a missile weapon based on tensile strength). In terms of lower body strength men and women are comparable (in fact women on average probably have proportionally greater lower body strength than men). In modern warfare the important concerns are carrying gear (something that relies on lower, not upper body strength) and the ability to aim and fire weapon. As someone who has been a target marksman I can say without a shadow of a doubt that there is no difference whatsoever in the performance of men and women in that regard, in fact the various forms of firearms marksmanship are to my knowledge the only sport where men and women compete together. The only barriers to fully integrated military service in modern warfare are sociological ones, and they are not as insurmountable as some people seem to think.

My own regiment in fluff terms is a mixed gender unit, and I am the proud owner of 10 Cadian style female guardsmen models from the now (apparently) defunct phoenix wargamers club that are spread throughout my squads. The models look awesome and I would dearly like more, but despite the repeated efforts of the gentleman who cast them I never received my second batch, replacement shipments were repeatedly lost in transit, I know for a fact that I was not scammed, as I have the first batch to prove that the models existed (that was $30 I could have spent elsewhere…). Unfortunately that site (which had some truly awesome ideas and models knocking around) seems to have finally died for good, though if anyone here is/was familiar with it and can give me some information on the site itself or the Guardswomen models in particular I would love it if you could send me a PM.

Personally I would love to see some female equivalents for at least the Cadian models from GW, after all the fluff explicitly states that EVERY Cadian, regardless of gender or social position, serves in the military during the course of their lives (“the birth rate and the recruitment rate are synonymous”). Realistically though, I don’t see it happening… Would it go a long ways towards evening the gender ratio in this game? Yes I think it would do something, but I don’t think it would really make a huge impact, I suspect that the reason more women don’t play this game has more to do with far broader social issues rather than the lack of readily available female armies.

In cases of women in armor it is very true that there is no practical reason to have armor that parallels female anatomy, and a good number of reasons not to, the armor on my Guardswomen model certainly do not have anything more than a barely perceptible greater bulge than the male equivalent. However, having said there are two reasons why I don’t have a huge problem with the various Witch Hunters models. First, in fluff terms the power armour and function of the Sororitas is a much symbolic as practical, not that they are anything less than very effective soldiers, but they are as much symbols of spirituality as they are soldiers and some of their equipment sacrifices some function in favor of emblematically dictated design. To this end their feminine identity is symbolically important to them, so the fact that their armour emphasizes this does not seem as out of place as it should. The second is a purely mundane concern, on a 28mm figure the subtleties of facial form and body build that distinguish male from female are not easily apparent. Sculpting armor to emphasize the ah, most distinctive structural characteristics of the female form aids in this distinction. What they really need to work on is the faces of their female models, the newer female Hereticus inquisitors are slightly better at this (and really are some very nice models that I think are often overlooked), but the Sororitas faces are… meh… Beyond the added gender identification effect I really don’t see why they shouldn’t all be able to wear helmets for one thing, they are in power armour, having all that protection and going bareheaded is just certifiably stupid unless you have a plausibly good reason like being a psyker (or the shear awesomeness factor of the model offsets practical issues, like with the Solomon Lok or Hector Rex models).

On an entirely unrelated note, I can’t help but notice that the forum censored me when I used the word “N a z i” in a half jesting description of the Imperium, but apparently has no issue with “tits” (George Carlin, eat your heart out) or “boobs” in this thread. Not sure what logic is governing the censoring algorithms on this site, what parent or hyper-sensitive person is going to say “I don’t mind talking about human sexual characteristics in slang terms, but please don’t expose me to the unpleasant parts of history.” …sigh… I am going to get in trouble for that last bit aren’t I?

Lerra

11-19-2009, 01:13 PM

The filter does seem a little odd . . . but most are. I'm not quite sure why it is implemented at all. It seems like most members here are 20+, and the younger members are gamers and have certainly heard the whole vocabulary before. Things tend to stay pretty clean around here anyway, regardless of the filter.

Anyways, back on track. I'm excited for plastic Sisters. I hope they keep the boob-armor just so that they are identifiably female from a distance, but I'm hoping they are modelled as holy warriors and not as sex objects. My worst nightmare is Sisters done in a Werner Klocke style with huge boobs hanging out of their armor.

Emperorsmercy

11-19-2009, 01:51 PM

Marshal2Crusaders

11-19-2009, 01:52 PM

There is no debate. Women can't be Space Marines. No way around it unless you bend the fluff, and if you bend the fluff you are wrong.

Gotthammer

11-19-2009, 02:07 PM

There is no debate. Women can't be Space Marines. No way around it unless you bend the fluff, and if you bend the fluff you are wrong.

What fluff? Nothing in any of the marine codexes or the rulebook that says women can't be marines. I don't have the Black Templar's codex so feel free to quote if it contains a prohibition, or point me to a book I can purchase at my GW tomorrow when I'm there that will say such a thing.

There are out of print books that do, but there are out of print books that say a lot of things. Things like "feel free to change any of the background to suit yourself" to paraphrase ;)

Marshal2Crusaders

11-19-2009, 02:12 PM

What fluff? Nothing in any of the marine codexes or the rulebook that says women can't be marines. I don't have the Black Templar's codex so feel free to quote if it contains a prohibition, or point me to a book I can purchase at my GW tomorrow when I'm there that will say such a thing.

There are out of print books that do, but there are out of print books that say a lot of things. Things like "feel free to change any of the background to suit yourself" to paraphrase ;)

The line in Index Astartes. Until something published contradicts it, it stays true.

You can argue all you like, you are still wrong. Having Female Space Marines is less about creativity and more about a passive aggressive 'f' you to the established fluff. Sure the models may look nice, I could also make an Eldar Army with 'Space Marine' Aspect Warriors and 'Guardsmen' Guardians, it doesnt make it possible.

Lerra

11-19-2009, 02:18 PM

You can call me wrong, and I will happily challenge your army to a duel, where my female space marines will ultimately prove victorious! ;)

It's just a game. If people have more fun painting female space marines than male space marines, what's the problem?

Melissia

11-19-2009, 03:29 PM

There are no known female Astartes, this is true. That does not mean, however, that they cannot exist in the fluff-- the gene-seed has been altered and tampered with in the past, chaos is of course chaos, and we don't know the nature of the two remaining legions.

Duke

11-19-2009, 03:40 PM

There is one major problem with Female Space Marines... If there were Female Space Marines then the Male Space Marines coud no longer "know no fear," in which case the whole astartes thing starts to break down...After that the end of the galaxy isn't far behined.

@Just Me: For someone who doesn't want to get in on the discussion, that was a long A post! lol... Also the last paragraph actually made me laugh out lod, Kudos.

Duke

Dark_Templar

11-19-2009, 04:05 PM

Personally I would prefer to see female marines. It would expand the universe a little. I do however understand that once the mental and physical conditioning is overwith, there is not a whole lot of gender specific requirements left, and fighting in these sorts of battles without helmets is a bit pointless, but that is not really the point.

It would just be nice to have their existence acknowledged and have some female heads released that look good (I am always drawn back to the recent WD based on the rerelease of Dark Elves. Honestly, the faces on some of those models look like they have been half melted with a blowtorch).

I do not think it would be too difficult to release an SM upgrade kit and an IG upgrade kit for female soldiers.

At the very least, I would like to see some plastic Sisters, as that is all it would take for me to start collecting.

Aeirling of Steirm Canoir

11-19-2009, 04:27 PM

People have tampered with geneseed in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a whole legion of female marines out there somewhere. I actually know a few people who made their own female marine legions.

As far as GW goes, i really just wish they would update the sisters of battle codex. Plastic sisters would be very, very, very awesome. They could use a new codex too (Then again, who doesn't? Imperial guard and space wolves are the only ones who don't actually need a new codex)

Just_Me

11-19-2009, 05:07 PM

@Just Me: For someone who doesn't want to get in on the discussion, that was a long A post! lol... Also the last paragraph actually made me laugh out lod, Kudos.

Duke

What I don't want to join is the discussion on female space marines, I have seen (and participated in) similar debates on other forums, and they are never pretty. Let that be a warning here before this gets out of hand.

I am more than happy to discuss female soldiers of other persuasions, and I think they deserve discussion, just not female Astartes. And if you hadn't noticed, I don't really have a middle ground for my posts, I either write two words, or a bloody essay :p.

Also, thanks, glad I could give you a laugh :D.

Valkerie

11-19-2009, 07:15 PM

I'm surprised the count got up to 28 before someone brought up the "females can't be Space Marines!" rant. It usually takes much less time. GW has been very careful not to definitively say one way or the other whether females can or can not be SM.

As a reluctant adult, I feel I have to say, "Everybody relax, step back, take a deep breath and chill out. Remember, it's only a game, it doesn't really exist and it is definately not worth getting excited about."

Hopefully, we will be able to keep this civilized, and not get the thread locked by the moderators.

Commissar Lewis

11-19-2009, 07:52 PM

True, let's hope things don't turn into a Mork vs. Gork type debate, with axes being thrown, people being shot and/or beaten, and stuff thrown and burnt.

As i brought up before, they've left out the two last primarchs, which may have been matriarchs. And who knows, maybe there was another process to make space marines that worked on females, but the Imperium lost the process. Hell, they barely have a handle on the regular marine processes.

That's my theory on how female marines would work. I think it's fairly plausable. The great, and irritating, thing about the fluff is that it is both well-written and vague as hell.

Dark_Templar

11-19-2009, 09:03 PM

[QUOTE=Commissar Lewis;36398]

As i brought up before, they've left out the two last primarchs, which may have been matriarchs. QUOTE]

Maybe the Emperor pimped them out to Chaos and they never came back, hence the start of his Crusade?

Duke

11-19-2009, 11:30 PM

That is Hella funny, it all started as a pimp fight! Then they started working for slannessh and the emp got his pimp cup broken... This is why he expunged the records... It's a clear as mud

Javin

11-20-2009, 06:39 AM

Still, rather than debate if female space marines are possible, I will try to return to the actual question. Would more female armies attract more female players?

BuFFo

11-20-2009, 07:40 AM

Do you think if GW made a chapter of Female Space Marines more ladies would play?

They did.

Welcome to 1997...

Alternately if a line of female IG models or regiment was produced would that encourage more female players?

No. It is still a game of war.

If Mattel created more variations of Ken, would you start playing with Barbie?

I know the sisters are around, and yes they are very cool, but sadly I never see them.

So if gamers don't want to play with female marines which already exist, what makes you think they would want to play with female marines if GW just made more?

GW already makes female models in power armor.

Take the models, and use any Marine codex. Done. What more do you want?

Sangre

11-20-2009, 07:44 AM

I'd quite like to see female model spures for the guard, actually.

Melissia

11-20-2009, 07:45 AM

... a faction that uses decade old metal models on an old, outdated codex that is never, ever advertised, hasn't been given any serious consideration in white dwarf in seven years, and oftentimes isn't even inside the store itself, there's only one book about it that many people have never even heard of and is difficult to find, mentions of them in the fluff are, when they actually exist, quite rare and nonsubstantial...

Gee, I wonder why they don't sell well. It's like Ned Flanders' parents from The Simpsons:

"We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"

Gotthammer

11-20-2009, 08:55 AM

The line in Index Astartes. Until something published contradicts it, it stays true.

You can argue all you like, you are still wrong. Having Female Space Marines is less about creativity and more about a passive aggressive 'f' you to the established fluff. Sure the models may look nice, I could also make an Eldar Army with 'Space Marine' Aspect Warriors and 'Guardsmen' Guardians, it doesnt make it possible.

Space Wolf codex states "these organs were designed so that they could be implanted into the body of an ordinary adolescant human". That reads any human, not just a male of the species. Ta-da, contradicted!

No you are wrong, it is about creativity (at least for me). And it is possible - I can show you pictures of the models if you like. I also knew someone who made a Marine/Eldar hybrid army in 2nd Ed. Believe it or not the moment both these things were crafted they didn't create a rift in space and time due to their impossibility.

See also the creators of the game repeatedly stating that it's ok and encouraged to make your own background material and change theirs.

Baaaack on topic: I don't think female marines would encourage more women gamers. It might encourage some female gamers to start playing marines, but not to a noticable level. Of the female gamers I know one plays Marines, one plays High Elves and one plays Mordor. Female models aren't really a driving force in getting women into gaming, but well done female models could gain more attention. Similar to how in RPGs when White Wolf didn't go with the scantily clad girl on every page approach to art it became well known as the most popular system for women gamers. Now there are very few RPGs still using the Chainmail Bikini in their art. Probably doesn't create interest, but probably doesn't kill it either.

Similarly if GW makes female models (such as guard) and they don't do well - say due to being terribly done due to a rush job as a low priority job - they wouldn't get better sculptors to do later series as the first ones didn't sell well enough to justify it. I think it's something Forge World should take up, a niece market needing quality - right up their alley.

And SoBs aren't female marines, females in powered armour, but totally different to marines. They lack loads of heavy armour and weapons, they are pretty much locked into the flaming death side of combat, they look nothing alike, and their backgrounds are polar opposites - one's a secular group of super commandos, the other is a religious enforcement group.

Lerra

11-20-2009, 10:21 AM

I'd rather see an integrated army versus a second all-female army. I like the idea of Forgeworld making some female guardsmen/Eldar/etc. but ideally it would be nice to get an upgrade sprue from GW. Forgeworld is so expensive >_<

Most of the women I meet who are interested in wargaming end up playing fantasy instead of 40k. A part of that is because of the lack of female models, but most is because Fantasy has some awesome miniatures to paint. Nerdy girls seem to prefer bestigors and dragons over dreadnoughts.

Melissia

11-20-2009, 11:27 AM

They lack loads of heavy armourActually the Exorcist has better armor than the Predator, heh. The only reason that Sororitas have less tanks than most armies is because GW had a brainfart and added in the Inquisition instead of expanding the Sisters like they damned well should have.

Gotthammer

11-20-2009, 12:10 PM

Ture that. I've always disliked how the Predator is the marine's MBT (as much as they have one) yet it and the Vindicator have side armour 11. Give the Vindi 12 and make the Pred fast I say. Give the sisters tanks with rotating knives on the front or access to LR Redeemers as a Cannoness' transport or something other than the Immolator and Exorcist.

But I was more meaning that you can't build a marine force with SoBs (using the list or just the models counts as) - no Land Speeders, no bikes, no scouts etc. Some models do cross over easily enough, I've made a SoB Ven Dread and Land Raider for instance, but with the all metal range I'd hate to try and figure out how to make a SoB "techmarine".
And, you know, they're not marines.

Just_Me

11-20-2009, 12:50 PM

Why does everyone keep talking about a lack of female Eldar? Has any Eldar player out there looked at his/her models lately? Look at the plastics that are the base for both Guardians and Dire Avengers, about a third of the torsos are clearly female (that or Eldar men must get very confused when they go to the beach in bikini season... ;)). Plus, and I know you don't want to hear it, but ALL Banshees are female!

On the other hand, I am really surprised that after the spectacular success of the Dawn of War games they haven't made a special direct order female Farseer... I could go for a well done model like that, as long as she wore a helmet (its just a thing I have, why would you wander around the Grimdark without a helmet if you have one? I feel like those sorts of people don't live very long...).

Duke

11-20-2009, 01:04 PM

The Eldar range just proves that more female models won't attract more female players. Not to mention Sisters... The only people I know who want to play sisters only have man-boobs, the real girls don't seem to care much (they play bugs and Orks which aren't of any gender really)

duke

Bean

11-20-2009, 01:18 PM

Yeah, my wife plays Thousand Sons and Daemons.

I don't object to female marines, but I doubt it would do much to attract more female gamers.

Old_Paladin

11-20-2009, 01:47 PM

Is the notion of a chapter of female marines a bad idea? No.
Could GW screw it up, and make the end result bad? More then likely!

I could see them sitting down that thinking, "If the marine transformation turns men into idealized supermen (ie, big, buff, badass, with huge guns); then would it turn women into superwomen? That means they'd be tall, thin, attractive and athletic."
So basically you'd end up with seven foot tall, strength and toughness 4, 3+ save, howling banshees, leaping all over the place, but with boltguns and long red and blonde hair. With a rules combination of sisters, slaaneshi daemons, and the callidus assassin.

Basically, everything Mel already hates about what they've done to sisters at different periods; but magnified by a factor of four.

On a differnt note; to those that say there is no fluff support that a marine has to be male:
I give you Index Astartes: Making of a Space Marine, "First and foremost, a potential recruit must be male, as the gene-seed and zygote are synchronized to male hormones and tissues." Additionally, the implantation timeline is based on an adolescent males average devolopment; as females tend to develop at a different rate then males, it would likely screw up the timeline for implantation.
Of course; this really only applies to the 9 known loyalist gene-pools.

Edit: Of course there is nothing wrong with ignoring fluff for personal reasons; and just playing the hobby/modelling part however you want. It would just be difficult for GW to release 'Codex: Female Marines' and have any fluff-fans buy into the idea; unless it was "Codex: 2nd (or 11th) Legion"

Melissia

11-20-2009, 05:40 PM

That doesn't say that all Marines must be men, that says that, with the unaltered gene-seed of known chapters, all marines must be men. I could imagine a very Species type experiment (and no, not saying that skinemax movie is any good, just using it as an example) by certain radical Inquisitors and Magos Genetors where they take some gene-seed and attempt to make female Astartes by modifying the gene-seed (in the case of Species, they used female DNA because they believed that females would be easier to control, which proved hilariously false).

Nabterayl

11-20-2009, 05:58 PM

What I often hear this argument break down to is this:

Pro-Possible: No GW fluff states that space marines can't be female
Anti-Possible: Index Astartes says that the space marine creation process requires males

Those aren't really contradictory, and I wonder if failure to appreciate that is one of the reasons these debates can heat up. There's a big difference between saying, "The Imperium doesn't know how to make female space marines" and saying, "Nobody ever did, or ever could, know how to make female space marines." The Imperium doesn't know how to do a lot of stuff.

I don't think anybody's disputing that, so far as we know, nobody ever has made female space marines. And I guess you can quibble about whether a genetically engineered, psychoengineered, seven foot tall superwoman with zygotes that perform the exact same functions as those of an Ultramarine is really a "space marine." But is anybody really disputing that such a thing could be done? Not that the Imperium knows how to do it, but that, in principle, they could?

I mean, this doesn't seem like a logical impossibility to me in the sense of saying, "Couldn't Khorne become a pacifist?" It's just something the Imperium doesn't know how to do.

Dark_Templar

11-21-2009, 12:17 AM

Seriously, it's not like saying "flushable toilets don't exist in 40k". Just because the Imperium forgot basic plumbing techniques doesn't mean that it isn't possible.

Commissar Lewis

11-21-2009, 12:18 AM

^ Yeah, Nab, that's the theory I subscribe to. That it may be possible, but the Imperium likely dropped the ball and forgot how to do so, so modern Marine-creation processes only work on females.

... Hell, I think I'll my Sisters and add em to my Einheriar chapter. The chosen of the War-god Emperor know no gender bounds!

Plus it'll give me 4 tactical squads.

Though this idea will get me the wrath of Melissia. So... *speeds away in Valkyrie*

gwensdad

11-21-2009, 12:35 AM

Maybe it's the lack of sleep, but why don't I throw this curveball out there:

It's the year 30,000 (ish) and the first marines are made. It's found that the procedure only works on males, but there are female warriors that would be good additions to the legions. Answer: (and here's the lack of sleep) hormone+surgical sex-changes. Performed just before puberty, a female could be made male then have the first Astartes implants installed. As they grow, they think of themselves not as "men" or "woman" but as Astartes, using masculine terms for anyone that they fight alongside.
So in this (yes, I need sleep) theory, there could be female-born marines, but they're not women.

jeffersonian000

11-21-2009, 03:18 AM

One point that seems to be overlooked by those supporting male only Astartes is the fact that all gene-seed implantation is based a tradition rather than actual science. Who gets selected is as much a rote exercise as which implants get added first and which age is best to start the process. The chapters with the least issues with their gene-seed are also the chapters that seem to follow the traditions in the least ritualistic manner (something that was specifically mentioned in Rogue Trade, but glossed over and then explained away as lost tech or mutations in later editions).

It is quite possible that the two missing legions were female and that their demise signaled an end of female selections as all of the remaining legions were male and only selected males after the first batch. And since there is little biological difference between males and females on a chemical level, there is no scientific reason why women cannot be Space Marines based on the technology used to create Astartes. However, there are a number of non-scientific reasons, with the first most being 10,000 years of tradition, the second being the ritualization of technology, and the third being the militant suppression of science and education throughout the Imperium.

Can there be female Space Marines? Without a doubt. Are there any? Doesn’t seem so. If there were, would more women play 40k? Probably not.

As to female guard models, I concur that FW is a better source for providing such a niche product since GW seems to not care to cover such models in their standard releases.

SJ

Gotthammer

11-21-2009, 08:44 AM

On a differnt note; to those that say there is no fluff support that a marine has to be male:
I give you Index Astartes: Making of a Space Marine, "First and foremost, a potential recruit must be male, as the gene-seed and zygote are synchronized to male hormones and tissues." Additionally, the implantation timeline is based on an adolescent males average devolopment; as females tend to develop at a different rate then males, it would likely screw up the timeline for implantation.
Of course; this really only applies to the 9 known loyalist gene-pools.

Edit: Of course there is nothing wrong with ignoring fluff for personal reasons; and just playing the hobby/modelling part however you want. It would just be difficult for GW to release 'Codex: Female Marines' and have any fluff-fans buy into the idea; unless it was "Codex: 2nd (or 11th) Legion"

As I said earlier, the Space Wolf codex states "these organs were designed so that they could be implanted into the body of an ordinary adolescant human". That reads any human, not just a male of the species - and is talking about marines in general, not just Wolves. They've changed it to be gender neutral, moving on from the WD/IA article.

rustbucket

11-21-2009, 09:13 AM

I agree with both Melissa and Bean. The addition of females in the ranks would only add depth to the story line, and would allow for more potential character developments in the books. I wouldn't be opposed to having breast plate bulges to offset a models breasts, why not, the Eldar range was done this very well. Marines are Marines, no matter what their original physiology may have been. Having been a Marine in real life, I can honestly say that some of the toughest Marines I ever knew/saw were females (although some did have manish faces)! Modeling wise, unlessl GW ever decided to go this route, you could easily use elven heads from the fantasy range (chariot crew, archers, mage come to mind), rounding the ears off of course, to achieve the effect of higher cheek bones and more slender features, plus long hair. Just my two cents...

rustbucket

11-21-2009, 09:27 AM

Can there be female Space Marines? Without a doubt. Are there any? Doesn’t seem so. If there were, would more women play 40k? Probably not.SJ

As per my previous post, I left off that although I wouldn't mind adding to the model range and giving more flare to my own Chapter, I also don't think that it would influence more women to jump onto the 40K band wagon.

Just_Me

11-21-2009, 09:29 AM

See? This is why I hate this particular debate of female space marines; it goes nowhere because everyone is completely convinced that their own view is the only correct one, and no one ever convinces someone else to change their minds, we just re-hash the same points indefinitely.

I really would like to see female guard upgrade packs from GW or FW, kind of like my idea that FW should turn out alternative prows for the Imperial Navy in BFG. its the sort of specialized niche that FW does. Unfortunately the demand for female guard isn't really that strong, heck every guard player was drooling at the rumor of plastic greatcoated guard a while back and we still don't have them, let alone guardswomen.

Sangre

11-21-2009, 09:32 AM

Ture that. I've always disliked how the Predator is the marine's MBT (as much as they have one) yet it and the Vindicator have side armour 11.

I think you'll find the Space Marine's Main Battle Tank is actually the Space Marine.

Rapture

11-21-2009, 10:19 AM

I don't want female space marines just like I don't want male adeptas soritas. Female guard would be nice to see, but cost prohibitive.

archimbald

11-21-2009, 11:18 AM

Alternately if a line of female IG models or regiment was produced would that encourage more female players?.

there was a limited edition of cadian females, and i maen very limited, only ever seen two sets of the sprues

Barss

11-21-2009, 11:42 AM

I recruited a female space marine to my Dark Angels army.
Her name is Vasquez. A tribute to Private Vasquez of Colonial Marines from James Cameron's Aliens .

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x288/Barss/Tezgah/vasquez2.jpg

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x288/Barss/Tezgah/vasquez.jpg

Commissar Lewis

11-21-2009, 12:26 PM

^ Huh, I named my Grenade Launcher Catachan chick Corporal Vasquez, also from Aliens. She got promoted to Corporal after taking down a Demon Prince with a well-shot krak grenade. She rolls with Iron Hand now in his command squad.

EmperorEternalXIX

11-21-2009, 12:54 PM

If they make female space marines, two things happen.

1.) Sisters of Battle = completely invalidated (in fact, if they DO this, it will probably BE the Sisters that get this kind of treatment).

2.) I quit the game.

Actually I think it could be quite cool, if it is done in a sort of uber hot girls in power armor kind of thing. But the idea of a woman being 8 feet tall and having more muscles than the entire WWE combined does not lend itself to a very cool looking model, nor would it help the pretentious females who would be allured by something so one-dimensional.

You already have women in power armor in the game; I see no reason they'd ever add more. The Sisters are unique unto themselves and have the potential to play very differently from most armies. To just plug the diseased marine genericism into some female models would really ruin things. We just don't need another marine 4-4-4-4 statline army...

Female guard are another story completely. My girlfriend was in the army; in her uniform with her hair up and helmet on you wouldn't have any idea it was a girl other than how she walks. I can't imagine a model of the Imperial Guard female soldier showing any difference to a male other than a very slightly elevated bosom.

Melissia

11-21-2009, 12:58 PM

some stuffThat's like saying you don't want female soldiers in the same way you don't want male mothers. By very definition, Adepta Sororitas are female. Adeptus Astartes are not male by definition, only because of history (and no, there are no male mothers, that's an urban legend :P)

EmperorEternalXIX

11-21-2009, 01:05 PM

What do you think would happen if you plugged the 100% male primarch's DNA into the body of a female?

B_Steele

11-21-2009, 01:06 PM

Adeptus Astartes are not male by definition...

Unless, of course, you believe the Astartes-creation process is triggered to males only, which GW in the past has identified with.

Bean

11-21-2009, 01:06 PM

I really don't get why people seem to associate marines and sisters so heavily in their minds. Sisters aren't marines. they're not even terribly similar. They're the militant army of the Imperial Church. They're not marines. They're not augmented, or altered, or super-human. They're well-trained and well-equipped female soldiers. They're not marines. Female marines would not be sisters. They wouldn't replace or invalidate sisters.

edit:
As far as the fluff goes, Steele's right. All of the established fluff which is relevant to the issue is either neutral on it or basically indicates that the Marine Making process works on males only.

It's certainly safe to say that there is no official recognition of a process by which female marines could be made within the Imperium. That's the sort of thing that would have shown up if it was meant to be there.

That being said, 40k fluff is very much 'anything goes'. All sorts of stuff is implied to be possible, and the limitations of the Imperium's knowledge are pretty severe. The assertion that female marines couldn't possibly exist is certainly unjustified.

Lerra

11-21-2009, 01:27 PM

What do you think would happen if you plugged the 100% male primarch's DNA into the body of a female?

If you plug male DNA into the body of an existing female, she would stay female. There are tons of people living with cross-gender organ transplants in the real world. It's not a big deal.

Men and women are damn near identical on a genetic level. The differences are mostly developmental, not genetic. Just look at all of the genetic males with androgen insensitivity syndrome - they are 100% female appearing except that they are infertile. Most people with this disorder don't realize they are genetically male until they try to conceive. Gender is much more fluid than most people realize.

EmperorEternalXIX

11-21-2009, 01:55 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of things like...huge muscles...super-solid bones...broad builds and a massive frame.

A woman brought to Space Marine standards would look just silly.

Sangre

11-21-2009, 02:13 PM

Lerra

11-21-2009, 02:33 PM

B_Steele

11-21-2009, 02:50 PM

You could probably build Chaos Necrons and get less flak than you would for female marines.

Oh no. That would DEFINITELY get my goat faster. It doesn't change my feelings for female marines, but I just want to say that I am an equal-opportunity fluff-n@zi.

Gotthammer

11-21-2009, 03:25 PM

Here's the thing that I don't understand.

Let's say someone wants to make a Sea Orks army with fins and gills. There is no precedent for it in the fluff, but it's fun and different. Or let's say someone wants to make some zany variant of Tau, or Eldar, or whatever army you want. It doesn't exist in the fluff, but who cares? It's fun, it's your army, and I've never seen anyone cry foul on these weird variant armies. We've got a few Chaos Tau/Eldar armies locally and no one seems to have any problem with them.

There is something about female marines in particular that just gets the nerd rage flowing. You could probably build Chaos Necrons and get less flak than you would for female marines.

People will believe the impossible, but not the improbable unfortunately :rolleyes:

I'm all for more creativity - it's a shame that some people don't do things they want because it's not given to them by GW. I remember a couple of years ago someone proposing having their Space Wolves riding wolves instead of bikes. They got shouted down for it being stupid, no precedent in the background, GW would never do it etc etc... I don't think they ever did, and I'm sure the attitude displayed by some people then does nothing to help the hobby.

Gotthammer

11-21-2009, 03:28 PM

If we're taking the 40k wiki, Lexicanum, at its word, only males can be made Space Marines, due to the genetics being keyed to male hormones and tissue types.

Of course that'll not shut any of you up. Especially Melissia.

Until recently lexicanum said Leman Russ dissapeared with the 13th Company...

And no, it won't shut us up because, you know, they've dropped that bit from the recent stuff and we're free to change it anyway if we want (and it's the year 40,00 and they're implanting organs that allow you to eat a dude's leg and steal his memories - I don't think getting an extra heart or bone/muscle boosting organ to work in a woman will be a big deal [if it is they could always ask the talking fungus men]).

FirBholg

11-21-2009, 03:36 PM

I'd say that the main problem is really the lack of visibility of female models/characters in the 40k game - though I would hazard a guess that more female gamers might be interested 40k if there were more obvious female models.
The most obvious contenders, the Adeptus Sororitas, suffer from a lack of exposure and support (don't get me wrong, I've loved the Sororitas since Sister Sin in Rogue Trader, and I was just starting to paint up a marine model in Sororitas colours when they announced the Sisters of Battle Codex for 2nd ed, but the current model range is expensive and rarely seen). Equally, while helmeted heads makes sense from the perspective of realism, in terms of aesthetics you need to be able to identify the mini as female at a glance.

I've always said that I'd like to do at least two commanders for any force, one male and one female. Obviously, that won't work for everything (orks, for example), and I imagine when I get around to marines I'll include a female Ordo Malleus inquisitor as an option. Frankly, even one or two options would be nice, though if ForgeWorld did decide to make a unit of female Cadians (for example) in the vein of the female Cap Troopers from Mongoose's ill-fated Starship Troopers line (a boxed unit that could be used on its own or equally spread between other - male - units to provide some gender diversity), I'd be tempted...

As is, the only female mini's currently available for 40k are the Calidus Temple assassin and Death Cultists, as well as the Ordo Hereticus inquisitor for Witch Hunters, the Battle Sisters (of course), and Commander Shadowsun for the Tau (with helmeted and bare-headed variants! Go Tau!). Then we've got the Eldar, which are reasonably well mixed (I'd be curious to see some stats as to the proportion of female players who play Eldar).
When you compare that to Fantasy Battle (alledgedly more played by female gamers - again I'd love to see some stats) which has female leader minis for all the (non-monstrous) races bar Empire and Warriors of Chaos (though they do have an awesome female special character) 40k doesn't come off so well.
Hell, the only female gamer I know in my area just plays Warmachine (which has some fantastic, non-exaggerated female sculpts).

It's a real shame, because it's not like there isn't a precedence for strong female characters in the 40k universe (the Inquisitor range had a really nice variety of female characters, and enough appear in various books and short stories).

Vogon

11-21-2009, 04:10 PM

There was a great peice of fan background floating around the net a while ago revolving around the 20th Primarch being female. It centered around the Emperor not allowing her to make a female legion but making her lead an all male legion. She went to fabius bile for help in re-sequencing the geneseed to work with females and was excomunicated and went rogue though still loyal to humainty (rather than the Empire) and has armies of followers not just genetically enhanced ones.

It was a great piece of writing and made me think it was well justified.

There are alsorts of reasons both for and against Female Astartes but i think Douglas Adams sadi it best. "In an infinite universe anything is possible, it is even possible that pigs may fly and every one will live happily ever after" If you want to field female astartes go for it you won't hear me complain.

As far as getting more girls/women into the hobby I think that this won't work. At the end of the day it's a game based on wars and fighting not really the sphere of interest for the average lass. One area of the hobby where I have noticed an upsurge in women is the painting side of things, and here I think that more female miniatures could work for GW. there are loads of other manufacturers out there who do have extensive female lines and Cool Mini Or Not seems to have many talented women out there posting regularly and by the looks of things making quite a tidy living doing comission work.

Cheers

Vogon

Melissia

11-21-2009, 04:46 PM

What do you think would happen if you plugged the 100% male primarch's DNA into the body of a female?Given your crude wording of it, I could make a bad joke about impregnation, but I suppose that wouldn't help this disussion.

45/46 genes in the human genome are identical for males and females, for the purpose of dividing between the genders at any rate. That last piece of genetic code is either two Xs (female) or an X and a Y (male), meaning that there is technically no "female gene", and therefor theoretically speaking I would say that it's actually possible to make a female primarch with a bit of genetic manipulation-- all males have at least one X. I would take a guess that you could make a copy of that X in order to have the XX needed to make a female.

What this would produce I dunno-- I'm certainly no geneticist-- , but as far sa genetic manipulation goes this sounds rather simple to do. Keeping in mind that males and females need extremely similar hormones (just different levels of them at different ages-- estrogen, for example, is extremely important for young boys, while girls need testosterone.as much as men (especially during puberty, resulting in body odor, oily hair and skin, acne, pubic hair, growth spurts, bone growth and maturation, and an increased libido)-- in fact, testosterone levels in some women are higher than in the average male, for example. The ovaries produce testosterone just as the testes produce estrogen if I remember my biology right. Low estrogen in males causes mental issues such as OCDs, and so marines very likely have a healthy level of it for their body size-- more than the average male at any rate.

Sangre

11-21-2009, 04:58 PM

Given your crude wording of it, I could make a bad joke about impregnation, but I suppose that wouldn't help this disussion.

45/46 genes in the human genome are identical for males and females, for the purpose of dividing between the genders at any rate. That last piece of genetic code is either two Xs (female) or an X and a Y (male), meaning that there is technically no "female gene", and therefor theoretically speaking I would say that it's actually possible to make a female primarch with a bit of genetic manipulation-- all males have at least one X. I would take a guess that you could make a copy of that X in order to have the XX needed to make a female.

What this would produce I dunno-- I'm certainly no geneticist-- , but as far sa genetic manipulation goes this sounds rather simple to do. Keeping in mind that males and females need extremely similar hormones (just different levels of them at different ages-- estrogen, for example, is extremely important for young boys, while girls need testosterone.as much as men (especially during puberty, resulting in body odor, oily hair and skin, acne, pubic hair, growth spurts, bone growth and maturation, and an increased libido)-- in fact, testosterone levels in some women are higher than in the average male, for example. The ovaries produce testosterone just as the testes produce estrogen if I remember my biology right. Low estrogen in males causes mental issues such as OCDs, and so marines very likely have a healthy level of it for their body size-- more than the average male at any rate.

Science is happening in a 40k thread. Abandon all hope.

Melissia

11-21-2009, 05:03 PM

You can't have science fiction without science. For that matter, GW has used genetics and science regularly. The "Blank" genetic for example, which is an extremely recessive trait was inserted in the human DNA by the C'tan. Mutation is by definition a changing of the human genome in some way. The mutations in 40K are quite dramatic, but still not unfeasible; mutants such as Abhumans would still have relatively stable DNA, while other mutants seem to have some reagent in their systems that causes their dna to be quite unstable. Given the wide variety of chemicals, radiations, virus strains in 40K, it's a surprise that more humans haven't mutated like this.

For that matter, there's an entire section of the Mechanicus dedicated to studying the human genome, the Magos Genetors IIRC.

Old_Paladin

11-21-2009, 09:33 PM

If we're going to go the scientific route, then we have to talk about the difference between Genotype and Phenotype. As the gene-seed organs seem to work by phenotype.
Genotype has to do with the genetic level; for example humans are chimps are a 97% identical genotype.
Phenotype is the external display for they genetics; humans and chimps only have distant physical similarities.

Men and women are very similar; but we do have some very important biological and bio-chemical differences. For example, the two sides of a womens brain tend to be more compact and interconnected; what if that means that the Catalepsean node doesn't work. Maybe it's just easier to turn off one section of a mans brain.

Once again; I will state that I have no problem with seeing a female marine army that someone wanted to make. Just that GW would have it's work cut-out is they wanted to introduce it to the Fluff.
I mean, they changed the 'daemonic rivalry' fluff, and look how grumpy a lot of old-timers got.

Melissia

11-21-2009, 10:12 PM

what if that means that the Catalepsean node doesn't work. Maybe it's just easier to turn off one section of a mans brain.
... or it could make no difference due to all the chemicals that the initiate receives in their diet-- or maybe it could even make it easier for it to work because of the interconnectedness of the two halves of the brain, the node can easier interact with all the parts.

As for phenotype, men and women do not have to have widely differing phenotypes. That's why there are twins that are of opposite sexes but otherwise identical. If a couple gives birth to genetic twins such as this, and one is accepted as an initiate, couldn't the other one be a possibility?

Though I did argue the scientific portion, in the end it is true that this is the realm of "soft science". W40K is dictated by Rule of Cool when you boil it down. Cool things are created and then justified after the fact.

I mean, they changed the 'daemonic rivalry' fluff, and look how grumpy a lot of old-timers got.

If the "grumpy old timers" want to make the fluff stale and unchanging, despising everything that is new, then what are they REALLY contributing to the hobby?

Sangre

11-22-2009, 06:51 AM

Bringing realistic scientific discussion to a world where they think the chainsword is practical?

Melissia

11-22-2009, 07:25 AM

Ahem:

W40K is dictated by Rule of Cool when you boil it down. Cool things are created and then justified after the fact.

I already covered that :P

Sangre

11-22-2009, 07:31 AM

Yeah, and women aren't cool unless they're busty and largely naked.

Just_Me

11-22-2009, 01:59 PM

Much as I didn’t want to get involved in this particular discussion (and even though it is not actually the original topic) I’m finding it impossible not to inject my 2 cents on the topic of female space marines.

As I understand it (and as Melissa has kindly already brought up) the primary differences between males and female characteristics is not at a genetic level, but is dictated by hormones. While contrary to popular belief, it is a fact that men and women each require both of the major sex hormones (testosterone “male,” estrogen “female”) along with some others in order for proper sexual maturation at puberty. However, the cocktail of male hormones have the effect of accelerating bone growth (hence why men tend to be taller than women after puberty, although women do hit their growth spurt first) and increasing muscular mass and density (why males typically develop greater musculature).

It has been stated beyond question that space marine modifications is reliant on the hormonal triggers at puberty, hence why inducting marines past puberty very rarely works and is nearly always fatal. Given that the most significant of the augmentations and modifications to space marines pertain to muscular and skeletal growth, it is logical to assume that, in addition to the hormone therapy they receive; their modifications are tuned to male hormone mixtures.

From a purely practical standpoint it makes little sense to have created space marines of both sexes. First, let us define two terms for the purpose of this discussion; sex represent the physical properties of human sexual characteristics, gender is the societal role that one accepts based on their sexual identity (hence transgendered individuals may identify with a gender other than their sex, or may choose not to identify as any gender at all). As I have mentioned, gender has no bearing on space marines as they all fulfill the same roles in society. Sex would also be meaningless as It has been very strongly implied that space marines are sterile, and at the very it least defies everything we know about heredity to believe that the surgical modifications could be passed on to their offspring. Therefore there is no reason to have designed modifications for female marines in order to create a stable breeding population among marines, it wouldn’t work. The same would seem to hold true for the Primarchs, at the very least we have no suggestion that any of them reproduced.

Thus, if we place ourselves in the position of the geneticists working with the Emperor on the Primarch/marine project we must consider the following points; a) gender will be meaningless for marines, b) sex will be meaningless for marines, c) marines are designed to be living weapons, d) it is easiest to make the modifications that turn them into living weapons to individuals that are biologically male. Therefore the logical conclusion is to design the process for men, not women, for the same reason that we make military firearms out of pressurized plastics and metal, not with polished mother-of-pearl handles; the plastics are more durable and easier the produce while the mother-of-pearl serves no purpose and only introduces complications for no discernable benefit.

Now to my mind it is well within the reach of Imperial the medical technology to give females the kind of hormonal treatments at puberty that would enable them to become marines. However, this would literally be no different than the first half of a sex-change operation, so the resulting individual would essentially be male. Second Imperial technology is so hide-bound by tradition and taboo as to preclude innovations that are not absolutely essential (look at the Land Raider and Predator Annihilator), so they are unlikely to make changes to a process that they already know works just fine unless the benefits are unarguable. .

So in conclusion I personally am inclined disagree with the idea of female marines from the fluff perspective, and I really don’t see why anyone cares that much given the nature of the marines. From a modeling perspective I am willing to be open minded, but for me to really get behind someone on this they would really have to show me that the fact that their marines are female somehow adds something important to them and their story, beyond just being different for the sake of being different or the “look, boobies!” factor. If you want warrior women, then the sisters of battle are an interesting vision and have a deep and appealing background of their own. Do they need updated models and better support? Hell yes! But they are out there.

Nabterayl

11-22-2009, 02:16 PM

You make a very good point about the justifications, Just Me. Certainly the question of whether female space marines are "possible" is a separate question from whether or not any given female space marine is done well (I have a friend who plays with a female noise marine champion, who was turned into a woman by Slaanesh after several thousand years of hedonism so that he could experience even more of life's pleasures - I thought that one was pretty well done).

If I were going to do a female space chapter, I think my fluff would revolve around recruitment. The qualities that a chapter looks for in its recruits are not really gender-based, after all. If the apothecaries had a gene-seed that could work with girls, and could find girl warriors with sufficient aptitude, I can see a chapter taking the plunge to break with tradition (even if the Codex doesn't explicitly specify male marines, which I doubt it does, surely by now marines think of themselves as traditionally male). Chapters are enormously preoccupied with their own survival, after all. A chapter with the ability to recruit from both halves of the population, and recruiting worlds whose culture meant that you would want to recruit both boys and girls, would have a real advantage when it came to replenishing the ranks of fallen marines.

Melissia

11-22-2009, 02:18 PM

Ivarr

11-22-2009, 02:46 PM

I don't know if it would bring more female players, but an all female marine chapter would undoubtedly sell. I would buy them...especially if they had unique chapter specific models and upgrade bits. Same with an all female guard army...

I know that this does not add to the current debate much...but it is truth.

Just_Me

11-22-2009, 03:03 PM

Your objections might have been relevant, Just_Me, if it were not for one simple fact... Sisters are not female Marines. They never were. It's two entirely different concepts-- Sisters are normal human beings in power armor, trained to the very limits of human physiology and skill (Sororitas rival Marines in areas of skill and agility, but they still lack the biology to keep up with them in terms of strength and durability). They are servants of the faith, and faith is their shield as well as their sword. They are all trained and indoctrinated at the Schola Progenium, and then continue their training and indoctrination when they graduate and are sent to their respective Orders. They are the military might of the Ecclesiarchy and allies to the Inquisition, and in-game their playstyle is also dramatically different.

Meanwhile Astartes are superhuman supersoldiers bred for war, created for war. They are killing machines without equal, soldiers without fear, untiring, ever-fighting giants. They are genetically enhanced and psychologically trained to reach these lofty goals, and are loyal to noone but the chapter and the Emperor, in that order. They are extremely independent, and each individual chapter trains their recruits differently. Each chapter has its own unique culture and most do not worship the Emperor insomuch as they treat him as a great man and a father figure.

The two factions are definitely distinct from eachother in the fluff, no matter what ignorant buffoons might claim about them. Pointing at Sisters and saying "if you want to play female Marines, go play them" does nothing but show that you are ignorant of the fluff regarding both Sisters AND Marines, and adds nothing to the discussion. This post isn't just pointed at Just_Me, but at everyone who would make such a suggestion. Saying "if you want to play female marines, go play sisters" is the same, to me, as saying "if you want to play shooty Orks, go play Guard".

Where on earth did I say sororitas are female marines? I was under the impression that I very specifically said that they are different. I only brought them up at all because I was talking about the hobby justification of making female marines. What I said was that as far as I am concerned the storytelling and flavor reasons for making up a chapter of female marines can already be fulfilled by the sisters. You don’t HAVE to create your own fluff for an order of all female warriors, they already exist. If you are interested in the dynamics of how an all female fighting force works and thinks, that has been addressed (in what I think is a very interesting and respectful way) by the sister’s fluff.

If you must insist on having female MARINES then I would have to ask WHY? What does the fact of being female (or being male for that matter) actually DO to deepen the character of an organization of essentially asexual cybernetic human weapons? If someone gives me a good reason (and I am sure someone who gave it the time and thought it deserved could) then I would be all for it, but otherwise how is it different from saying “yeah, my marines are different from yours because they’re orange and wear their hair in Mohawks!” Who cares? All you have done is introduce differences for the sake of having differences, nothing is deepened or made more “characterful” by it, it's just arbitrary.

And even if I did make the mistake of claiming that sisters are female marines (and there ARE a number of broad parallels) how would that possibly invalidate the rest of my argument? And why would it justify a personal attack on me? I have always tried to treat your (and others) arguments with the intellectual respect they deserve, even if I personally disagree.

EDIT: This is exactly why I was avoiding getting involved in this debate damn it! Why don't I listen to my own advice?

RedScorpionsGirl

11-22-2009, 03:19 PM

I was referring to the faces, not the hair. Early 40K art and models regarding females tended to be have feminine bodies but masculine heads. Essentially, they looked like slender guys with tits.

Heh...Don't they still have models like that...Ya know, Eldar

Melissia

11-22-2009, 03:19 PM

What I said was that as far as I am concerned the storytelling and flavor reasons for making up a chapter of female marines can already be fulfilled by the sisters. You don’t HAVE to create your own fluff for an order of all female warriors, they already exist.And that is EXACTLY what I was responding to.

You ask me why there should there be female superhuman supersoldiers in 40k, and I ask you why shouldn't there be female superhuman supersoldiers in 40k. Marines cannot be done with Sisters because Sisters are human whereas Marines are not. The same way you cannot do a shooty Ork army if you use Imperial Guard models, because Guardsmen are not Orks.

As for my comment about "ignorant buffoons", I was referring to those people who honestly believe that the two factions are the same, just with different names. And yes, they're out there. More than one person has asked me where I got all those models for female Marines when viewing my Sisters of Battle miniatures on the table (I blame the store manager, whom doesn't have nay on the shelves even if he has them in stock).

RedScorpionsGirl

11-22-2009, 03:31 PM

Your objections might have been relevant, Just_Me, if it were not for one simple fact... Sisters are not female Marines. They never were. It's two entirely different concepts-- Sisters are normal human beings in power armor, trained to the very limits of human physiology and skill (Sororitas rival Marines in areas of skill and agility, but they still lack the biology to keep up with them in terms of strength and durability). They are servants of the faith, and faith is their shield as well as their sword. They are all trained and indoctrinated at the Schola Progenium, and then continue their training and indoctrination when they graduate and are sent to their respective Orders. They are the military might of the Ecclesiarchy and allies to the Inquisition, and in-game their playstyle is also dramatically different.

Meanwhile Astartes are superhuman supersoldiers bred for war, created for war. They are killing machines without equal, soldiers without fear, untiring, ever-fighting giants. They are genetically enhanced and psychologically trained to reach these lofty goals, and are loyal to noone but the chapter and the Emperor, in that order. They are extremely independent, and each individual chapter trains their recruits differently. Each chapter has its own unique culture and most do not worship the Emperor insomuch as they treat him as a great man and a father figure.

The two factions are definitely distinct from eachother in the fluff, no matter what ignorant buffoons might claim about them. Pointing at Sisters and saying "if you want to play female Marines, go play them" does nothing but show that you are ignorant of the fluff regarding both Sisters AND Marines, and adds nothing to the discussion. This post isn't just pointed at Just_Me, but at everyone who would make such a suggestion. Saying "if you want to play female marines, go play sisters" is the same, to me, as saying "if you want to play shooty Orks, go play Guard".

Very well worded Melissia! I play both sisters and RedScorpions, and agree, they are not one in the same. I like to pull my sisters out every now and then to show some of the newbies at our store how they work, as they think they are female marines, and when they play them, you hear nothing but whining that they suck, blah blah.... I'm not perfect at playing them, it's just one of my favourite armies to play, as they are not seen to often, and I enjoy showing others how to use them effectively. We have had a lot of people look at them and say cool, female marines, I want to start out with these...Our game store owner often refers them to me before purchasing them, as he knows that they are difficult to master as a starter army. 9 out of 10 times I watch the individual decide to try either marines and a unit of sisters to work with them, try out a different army, or pick up the book, and decide they want to read it well, and proxy models before making that kind of investment. (My sisters total around a $1000 investment, as I purchased them singly from GW before bits went the way of the dodo, and my entire force is helmeted) I don't want to drive people away from playing them, I want them to realize they are not female marines.

RedScorpionsGirl

11-22-2009, 03:40 PM

And that is EXACTLY what I was responding to.

You ask me why there should there be female superhuman supersoldiers in 40k, and I ask you why shouldn't there be female superhuman supersoldiers in 40k. Marines cannot be done with Sisters because Sisters are human whereas Marines are not. The same way you cannot do a shooty Ork army if you use Imperial Guard models, because Guardsmen are not Orks.

As for my comment about "ignorant buffoons", I was referring to those people who honestly believe that the two factions are the same, just with different names. And yes, they're out there. More than one person has asked me where I got all those models for female Marines when viewing my Sisters of Battle miniatures on the table (I blame the store manager, whom doesn't have nay on the shelves even if he has them in stock).

I have a humorous one on that note...I brought my sisters to a tournament, and my first opponent looked at them and asked me if they were Eldar! The sad part was, my codex was sitting on the table face up next to the tray. He actually tried to argue with me that my models were Eldar, and was convinced that I made the codex up and printed it, that Witchhunters didn't exist! (And he had a unit of Grey Knights in his army of Ultra Cheez)

Melissia

11-22-2009, 03:53 PM

How, exactly, you confuse Eldar with Sisters I don't know...

sirrouga

11-22-2009, 04:15 PM

I think most people just see a human in power armor, wielding a boltgun, and using Rhino transports and automatically think Marine since that is what defines Space Marines to many people. Taking a few minutes to look deeper shows how different they really are and I personally love the fluff on the Sisters a lot more than that of the Marines (if only they had plastic models...).

Many people also say that the 40k background doesn't fit Female marines, but hasn't the background been changed multiple times already? I mean GW can really do whatever they want, if they want a female chapter they will do so and then change things to make them fit into the background. I mean with every new release they do it seems something in the imperial records was a typo and now has been changed and corrected. I mean with all the genetic engineering, advanced technology, and thousands of years of time that there HAS to be female marine chapter, even if they are a chapter that isn't well known or they are just missing.

But more importantly, female Space Marines means female Chaos Marines which to me means even more awesome fluff and modeling conversions. And anyone that watched Paranormal Activity (or just about any horror movie really) knows you do NOT mess with a lady that hangs around demons.

Kidding aside, I think every army could use some female models, if they are done correctly. I doubt it would happen through as GW and just about every company out there that have the target "male demographic" automatically assume that means perverted guys. So big chests and skin tight outfits only it seems. Not like that has been way over done through...

Just_Me

11-22-2009, 04:45 PM

Sigh… well, as long as I am in this, I might as well really be in this…

You ask me why there should there be female superhuman supersoldiers in 40k, and I ask you why shouldn't there be female superhuman supersoldiers in 40k. Marines cannot be done with Sisters because Sisters are human whereas Marines are not. The same way you cannot do a shooty Ork army if you use Imperial Guard models, because Guardsmen are not Orks.

So explain to me why being female matters to being marines? They are literally both asexual and genderless, they arguably aren’t even human anymore, and regular human concerns certainly don’t matter to them. They could all be female and it wouldn’t change a damn thing about how they behave or think. If you want to make female Astartes because you are interested in exploring the concept of female soldiers then marines aren’t really a good subject.

If someone were to say to me “I have an army of female marines” I would say “OK, so what that means is you have an army of marines who just happen to be female.” If you make a group of female marines whose flavor and character is all about being female soldiers, then I would say you have just made bad marines, real marines wouldn’t care about such things. If you make a group of female marines whose flavor and character is based on the fact that they are marines, then I would praise your modeling work (assuming you actually bothered to model it), but would wonder why it matters that they are female at all. There is enough challenge in just characterizing the marines as human without trying to introduce sex or gender into the equation. If someone could come up with the subtlety of why being female is an enriching factor that fits with being marines, then I would be the first to praise you for your work because that would make for some truly interesting marine fluff.

Sisters (or even Guard) on the other hand are a perfect subject for pursuing this sort of storytelling, as they are still human, so being male or female actually matters.

So from a storytelling perspective the only reasons I see for making female marines are (some of) the same reasons that one would play sisters. They are NOT female marines, and that is precisely what makes them good subjects for the storytelling questions that might make one choose to make female marines (it’s paradoxical, but there it is). So if you want highly trained female warriors to who their femininity is still an important factor, then yes, I say instead of female marines you should play sisters.

If all you wish to do is model female marines because you think it would look cool, in the same way that you decide to make your Chaos Lord look like Darth Vader, or your Inquisitor and his retinue look like characters from Doctor Who, or your Tyranids all look like a different cosmic horror from the works of H. P. Lovecraft purely because it’s fun, then I am all for it. It doesn’t really matter when it comes to integrating them into the fluff of the overall universe, it is a fun and very personal army that you have created for your own pleasure, and that is what the modeling part of the hobby is all about.

How, exactly, you confuse Eldar with Sisters I don't know...

As for this, I have no idea, but I suspect being both ignorant and just plain stupid is a contributing factor...

Lerra

11-22-2009, 05:33 PM

If all you wish to do is model female marines because you think it would look cool, in the same way that you decide to make your Chaos Lord look like Darth Vader, or your Inquisitor and his retinue look like characters from Doctor Who, or your Tyranids all look like a different cosmic horror from the works of H. P. Lovecraft purely because it’s fun, then I am all for it. It doesn’t really matter when it comes to integrating them into the fluff of the overall universe, it is a fun and very personal army that you have created for your own pleasure, and that is what the modeling part of the hobby is all about.

Horray! And here we come to complete agreement :)

It doesn't matter to the marines what gender they are - they are simply warriors and little else matters. It does matter to the human behind the space marines. I've seen people disqualified from competition for having pink loyalist marines, and also for having female space marine models. It hurts the brain >_<

RedScorpionsGirl

11-22-2009, 05:36 PM

The individual I played in the tournament had never, ever seen anybody play sisters at that store. But still, I had my codex sitting NEXT to my army.. and it was face up...lol

Dark_Templar

11-22-2009, 05:41 PM

The individual I played in the tournament had never, ever seen anybody play sisters at that store. But still, I had my codex sitting NEXT to my army.. and it was face up...lol

I am not one to promote violence at tourneys, but this dude deserve a lasgun bayonet to the eye.

Just_Me

11-22-2009, 06:08 PM

I am not one to promote violence at tourneys, but this dude deserve a lasgun bayonet to the eye.

That or perhaps purging through holy flame would be more appropriate :p, I mean seriously...

I have never see sisters played (mores the pity) but that doesn't stop me from knowing about them, has this guy never even visited the interwebs? Or for that matter read his damned rulebook? The Sisters, Grey Knights, and Inquisition may not get a lot of page space, but by the Emperor they are in there!

dagonis

11-22-2009, 07:00 PM

11 pages and no Dr. Thunder chatter yet? I am impressed.

Most of the 40kers I know take umbrage at the idea of a Female Space Marine army because nearly all the modeling of such has been exploitative and done in bad taste. If GW did Female Space Marines that looked similar to current SMs with small variations, I think that would be ok and most people would too.

People also take issue when you tinker with the fluff. I ran a campaign and had a player get upset because my Salamander's Vulkan had a (not quite, but almost) friendship with Farsight of the Tau. I have had the same thing happen when a player had a Chaos Eldar army.

Fluff wise I think that female marines would fun as heck. My chapter would be "The Emperor's Bakers" and they will get selected for Marinehood by winning a grim-dark cooking contest. I would use the portal cake icon as their shoulder marking.

Dark_Templar

11-22-2009, 07:15 PM

You can finish of the crème brûlée with a heavy flamer!

Melissia

11-22-2009, 07:22 PM

dagonis

11-22-2009, 07:29 PM

http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/1/4/6/portal_cake.jpg - for anyone who hasn't seen it.

The B&C painter looks to be down so I did a quick and dirty mock up for you all.

Melissia

11-22-2009, 07:35 PM

Ignoring the troll :P

More ideas on what a female chapter might be inspired by:

Boudica, a Celtic war heroine
Freyja, a goddess of war, battle, and death
The Shieldmaidens of Scandinavia, women who took up arms as warriors
Valkyries, minor warrior-deities whom govern the souls of dead warriors
Tomoe Gozen, japanese heroine capable of doing amazing things that even men couldn't do.
The Trung Sisters, Vietnamese warrior-leaders whom held back Chinese invasions for three years.

Probably hundreds more examples, and that's just historical/mythical ones... fiction has much more. All of these have potentially epic applications if done right.

Dark_Templar

11-22-2009, 07:42 PM

http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/1/4/6/portal_cake.jpg - for anyone who hasn't seen it.

The B&C painter looks to be down so I did a quick and dirty mock up for you all.

Personally I do not think that they have to be purple to be female, not does purple have to be considered a feminine colour for marines (it is a secondary colour on my marines).

I also doubt that female marines would keep their hair long, if they had hair at all. I know it helps identify them as female (or open minded males), but you could always have a different style of helmet or ideally just a different torso altogether.

Anyways, I cannot help but feel we are going around in circles here.

Melissia

11-22-2009, 07:44 PM

What, you expected resolution?

dagonis

11-22-2009, 07:56 PM

Just_Me

11-22-2009, 09:32 PM

You're not getting your point across AT ALL, Just_Me. Actually the most you're doing is making me roll my eyes. If you're looking for a reason why someone would want to do an Astartes chapter, why not actually look towards the inspiration used in making a chapter?

Why not an Amazon-based chapter that favors ranged attacks (much like the amazons typically favor bows and spears in fiction)? A chapter based off of the DnD Drow matriarchy, where the society of the planet itself is turned on its head with males being subservient to females, whom are typically well-armed, trained, and completely lethal-- perhaps being very assault-oriented similar to the commonly depicted twin knife/twin sword style of the Drow? Hell male Marines have a chapter based off of a frickin' Poe poem, why not female Marines based off of some other literary or historical inspiration-- perhaps based off of Queen Elizabeth, with the chapter master (mistress? I don't think it needs to be changed personally, but it's up to the player) playing the role and guiding Imperial forces against a superior enemy naval fleet, perhaps even specializing in naval combat and boarding actions and the close-ranged combat that comes with it?

I’m not really sure how to make my point any clearer, you certainly don’t have to agree with me, but if you don’t even understand what I am trying to say by now then I don’t really see how I can make myself any clearer.

Most of those ideas for using famous female leaders and heroes already occurred to me (the Amazons for one is painfully obvious) but as far as I am concerned nearly all of them would represent a good subject for a niche/hobby army. They would be fun to model and make for a good looking and very cool army on the tabletop, but they don’t really add anything from the perspective of the universe’s fluff.

If I decide to make a group of marines who are inspired by the British army of the Napoleonic era, complete with shakos and red armor, and always march them in ridged lines, then it’s kind of a cool army that might give me pleasure and my opponents a laugh, but it doesn’t really fit with the fluff of the 40k universe. And wouldn’t it be better suited to the Guard anyway? I wouldn’t claim that such an army made sense in-universe, but from a hobby perspective they would be neat.

Even within your list of suggested themes it seems to me that you have made my point for me. Sure you could make female marines based on the Drow as a theme, but the Dark Eldar are already so much better suited to such a theme that it begs the question why you would even choose to use marines in the first place? What does it do for the marines that you base them on Drow, and what does it do for your Drow theme that you use the marines? Similarly, why would I make a marine force based on Queen Elizabeth? She ruled England during one of their greatest naval victories (over the Spanish Armada), so why are marines a good fit? Why not the Imperial Navy in Battlefleet Gothic?

If you argue that you do it because you like the marines then I would have to say you don't really like marines at all, after all you are trying to change them to such an extent that they aren't really marines at all anymore. Doing something like that doesn't enrich the fluff of the marines, it just uses them as a delivery system for something else entirely.

None of that changes the fact that if you want to write a deep and respectful depiction of female marines you will find it very difficult to answer the essential question of WHY it matters that they are female at all. What circumstances could you come up with that would make it relevant to their thoughts and actions that the marines are female?

The problem is not with their being female; it is with the marines being, well, marines. As I have said they are asexual and genderless, just making them female would feel like either cheep fanservice, shovanistic crap (e.g. the “Emperor’s Bakers”), or something totally pointless and slightly insulting to both marines and, more importantly, women. If we have uber-sexy female marines form fitting armor, then it is nothing but vulgar “cheesecake.” if we insist on having female marines just out of some sense of arbitrary “fairness” then it would seem like such a weak token gesture as to be insulting (like the archetypal token black friend just to prove you aren’t a racist). And if we just make them normal marines that happen to be female then WHY? What does it even mean to them that they are female? What was wrong with normal marines that are male?

Dark_Templar

11-22-2009, 09:33 PM

I'm not trolling :)

To prove I am not being sexist, The Emperor's Bakers' serfs and servitors are men.

Also, I agree that just because they are girls they don't have to be purple/pink. I just happen to like those colors on power armor.

I figured my first mock up was kind of lazy, so I spent a little extra time on this.

Ladies and gentlemen, meet Marie An'dreadnette a fallen battle sister from the 7th Delicious Crusades.

*before anyone gets mad, I am just trying to add a little lightheartedness to a pretty intense thread about little plastic space(wo)mans* :)

What kind of range do you get on that vaccuum cleaner? It looks like it could take on JotWW if used correctly.

Anywho, these Female Marine topics always get out of hand and honestly, this is the most tame one I have ever seen.

All we need is for a Black Library novel to come out that mentions them even in passing and we will have a starting point.

Honestly, I would have thought the GW geeks would love the idea of women in positions to dominate.

dagonis

11-22-2009, 10:10 PM

Males do get a lot of attention in the universe, but there are many bad *** women in 40k.

Bequin
Female Assassins
Shira Calpurnia
And there are many awesome female Inquisitors

Dark_Templar

11-22-2009, 10:21 PM

Honestly, when they release plastic sisters I will be happy, especially if they make them completely bada$$.

Get an awesome female Inq model (think awesomeness on the level of Hector Rex) and you are set to go.

Just_Me

11-22-2009, 10:21 PM

...Shira Calpurnia...

I haven't read her series yet, would you recommend them? I didn't know anything about the author and didn't want to wast time and money on a poor read.

Bavius

11-22-2009, 10:35 PM

I think it would be a disservice to your gaming community to deny someone the right to play female marines. The fact is that as Marines are produced, as oppossed to reproducing, gender is irrelevant. As are gender features including sexual organs. Will GW have success marketing to women? That's up to us as a community. There are female models, there should be more (especially Guard), but ultimately it's how we treat newcomers and "unfluffy" ideas that stop growth in the community.

Women do play, and female models might help a little - but I doubt it would significantly increase female players.

Dark_Templar

11-22-2009, 11:00 PM

Old_Paladin

11-22-2009, 11:12 PM

Maybe if the people who hung around the GW Retail stores showered once in a while, washed their clothes, shaved, and didn't live in their mum's basement it might be a little more inviting for a female...
Hey! That's not a fair discription of all us gamers. I, for one, live in my wifes basement.

Back on topic. I am going to say, yet again, that I don't think a single person in this thread would actually lean across the table and say to someone that made a female marine army "That's not a legit army! I won't play against it because it's not canon."
There is a complete difference between real life gamer/hobby mentality, and discussing if it is smart for a company to backtrack on its own established fluff.

It's the same with orks. People find it fun to see weird custom conversions; like orange pumpkin orks, or blue water-orks with gills. However, people are going to wonder whats wrong with GW if they start writting stories about orks and all of a sudden they're discribed as "a striped green rabbit, with two butts."

Melissia

11-22-2009, 11:48 PM

And moreover, if you really don't care, or feel that my opinions have no merit (which is entirely your right), then why do you continue to aggressively challenge them?
I've already answered this to the best of my ability, hehe :P

That's never been the purpose of my arguments. Rather, first and foremost I love to argue, second I despise people who promote stagnation of the imagination, and third, I don't like your arguments.

Gotthammer

11-22-2009, 11:51 PM

So explain to me why being female matters to being marines? They are literally both asexual and genderless, they arguably aren’t even human anymore, and regular human concerns certainly don’t matter to them. They could all be female and it wouldn’t change a damn thing about how they behave or think. If you want to make female Astartes because you are interested in exploring the concept of female soldiers then marines aren’t really a good subject.

...

If someone were to say to me “I have an army of female marines” I would say “OK, so what that means is you have an army of marines who just happen to be female.” If you make a group of female marines whose flavor and character is all about being female soldiers, then I would say you have just made bad marines, real marines wouldn’t care about such things. If you make a group of female marines whose flavor and character is based on the fact that they are marines, then I would praise your modeling work (assuming you actually bothered to model it), but would wonder why it matters that they are female at all.

As one player (possibly th eonly one in this thread) who actually plays female marines I'll answer the why question. It's not about them being female, it's about not shutting out 50% of the population in terms of character development and modelling possabilities. It originally started when I just got sick of the 'bald and screaming' look for the helmetless marines.
I was using a vaugly celtic/norse mythology for the chapter's backgroud (bifrost the rainbow bridge) and decided to stick the Mordheim Amazon head with the horned helmet on a marine for one of my Sergeants.

When I create characters it either comes from the model - sometimes I'll look at a finished or assembled mini and 'get' an idea of who they are and their personality - or I'll have an idea and make a model to match it. Maybe this is due to years and years of D&D but if a character's going to pop into my head I'm not going to throw away or change the idea as I see it to fit one line that is of dubious canonicity now (not that I care either way).

And I don't say "I have an army of female marines" - I don't mention it at all as it is not what they're about and has no real effect on them. Sure I could have made them all male, but then again I could just play Ultramarines and have no creativity whatsoever ;)

More ideas on what a female chapter might be inspired by:

Boudica, a Celtic war heroine
Freyja, a goddess of war, battle, and death
The Shieldmaidens of Scandinavia, women who took up arms as warriors
Valkyries, minor warrior-deities whom govern the souls of dead warriors

Pretty much this, but I run an equal opportunity Chapter.

Just_Me

11-23-2009, 01:04 AM

I understand what you're saying. What I don't understand is why you think what you're saying matters in the first place...

So yeah, I just wonder what's the point of your objections? I don't see why I should care about all of these things you bring up in your arguments, or how they aren't also relevant and applicable to a great deal of things that already exist in 40K, or how exactly they support your position in the first place.

Why shouldn't you care what I have to say? This is a forum, ostensibly a place for open intellectual debate and the sharing of ideas, the very fact that you are here presupposes that you want to not only share your opinions with others but hear their opinions as well. If that isn't what you want then start a blog, you can tout your own opinions until you are blue in the face and never have to hear someone else's ideas.

And moreover, if you really don't care, or feel that my opinions have no merit (which is entirely your right), then why do you continue to aggressively challenge them?

As for how my examples help my argument, I don't know what to tell you, I even went so far as to have someone on my end read over my statements as post hoc check on my logic, and they made sense to her. In fact the only thing she had to say was that using mother-of-pearl as in comparison to metal and plastic in my earlier post might seem sexist, but given that I was thinking of General Patton's Colt .45s at the time I don't really see it :D. If my analogies have failed to communicate my intentions to you, then I am sorry, but I am not sure what more I can do.

In addition, if you did understand what I was trying to say, and simply choose to dismiss it, then why did you not say that?

Finally, if you disagree with me, that is fine, I honestly do not want everyone to agree with my opinions, it would make life boring, but do not dismiss or belittle my opinions simply because they do not mesh with your own.

As one player (possibly th eonly one in this thread) who actually plays female marines I'll answer the why question. It's not about them being female, it's about not shutting out 50% of the population in terms of character development and modelling possabilities. It originally started when I just got sick of the 'bald and screaming' look for the helmetless marines.
I was using a vaugly celtic/norse mythology for the chapter's backgroud (bifrost the rainbow bridge) and decided to stick the Mordheim Amazon head with the horned helmet on a marine for one of my Sergeants.

When I create characters it either comes from the model - sometimes I'll look at a finished or assembled mini and 'get' an idea of who they are and their personality - or I'll have an idea and make a model to match it. Maybe this is due to years and years of D&D but if a character's going to pop into my head I'm not going to throw away or change the idea as I see it to fit one line that is of dubious canonicity now (not that I care either way).

And I don't say "I have an army of female marines" - I don't mention it at all as it is not what they're about and has no real effect on them. Sure I could have made them all male, but then again I could just play Ultramarines and have no creativity whatsoever ;)

That is exactly what I said earlier. To you your army has meaning, it is personally relevant and it brings you pleasure. So it really shouldn't matter what anyone else thinks. I may not choose to believe that female marine "exist" (in-universe), and your marines may or may not sell it to me, but that hardly matters here. In fact I would much rather play against your army (which must have been a labor of love) than some half painted list-'o-the-week or shoddily made monstrosity from a kid whose two working parents decide to compensate for never being home by buying him everything from the forgeworld catalogue :mad:.

For my part I don't see the point of female marines, I am entirely convinced that they can exist from a fluff perspective, but I have yet to hear a good enough reason given to overcome 10,000 years of Imperial inertia and to make it happen. And furthermore, as I have said before, I don't really see why being female is important enough for the character of marines to warrant going to the effort of justifying it in the fluff. To my mind they are interesting because of their purist warrior ethos, in which sex and/or gender are irrelevant. However, if it is important to you, then more power to you!

On related note, can you post some pics or something? They sound like some really cool minis, especially with the norse/celtic angle, there is so much beautiful imagery in those mythic traditions...

Gotthammer

11-23-2009, 07:44 AM

That is exactly what I said earlier. To you your army has meaning, it is personally relevant and it brings you pleasure. So it really shouldn't matter what anyone else thinks. I may not choose to believe that female marine "exist" (in-universe), and your marines may or may not sell it to me, but that hardly matters here. In fact I would much rather play against your army (which must have been a labor of love) than some half painted list-'o-the-week or shoddily made monstrosity from a kid whose two working parents decide to compensate for never being home by buying him everything from the forgeworld catalogue :mad:.

I play Rainbow Warriors so other people's opinions on my army are low on my list of priorities :p

For my part I don't see the point of female marines, I am entirely convinced that they can exist from a fluff perspective, but I have yet to hear a good enough reason given to overcome 10,000 years of Imperial inertia and to make it happen.

My background has that the Chapter was isolated in M32 for a long time, so had need of female recruits due to a smaller pool and the means due to better preserved methods of creation.

And furthermore, as I have said before, I don't really see why being female is important enough for the character of marines to warrant going to the effort of justifying it in the fluff. To my mind they are interesting because of their purist warrior ethos, in which sex and/or gender are irrelevant. However, if it is important to you, then more power to you!

That's why I find them interesting (the warrior ethos stuff), but as I said before I just 'get' the character in my head. One thing I'm exploring in their background is the period between recruitment and becoming a scout. It's only very quickly referenced in the media, and none of it really gave me the impression of it being teenagers. Scouts are essentially child soldiers in some cases, an interesting thought.

On related note, can you post some pics or something? They sound like some really cool minis, especially with the norse/celtic angle, there is so much beautiful imagery in those mythic traditions...

I don't give them too much nordic/celtic stuff on the minis. I'm working a few little bits here and there but I don't want them to become too close to Space Wolves.

I've got pics on my blog http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/2009/11/rainbow-warriors-pics-of-my-army.html and on my photbucket http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/ - some of the older ones are lower quality as my camera was dying.

Melissia

11-23-2009, 07:52 AM

And moreover, if you really don't care, or feel that my opinions have no merit (which is entirely your right), then why do you continue to aggressively challenge them?
Some people like to paint. Some people like to drink wine. Some people like to drive cars. I like to debate. sometimes I'll go in a thread I'm completely not interested in and find a post and debate it even if it's completely tangental, because I enjoy it :P

Just_Me

11-23-2009, 01:30 PM

Some people like to paint. Some people like to drink wine. Some people like to drive cars. I like to debate. sometimes I'll go in a thread I'm completely not interested in and find a post and debate it even if it's completely tangental, because I enjoy it :P

That I can understand, if for no other reason than that I am the same way (why else do you think I would knowingly got into this thread against my better judgment :D). You have an impressive knowledge of 40k lore and usually make well informed arguments, keep it civil, and I will debate you any day :D.

Bows...

...

I don't give them too much nordic/celtic stuff on the minis. I'm working a few little bits here and there but I don't want them to become too close to Space Wolves.

I've got pics on my blog http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/2009/11/rainbow-warriors-pics-of-my-army.html and on my photbucket http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/ - some of the older ones are lower quality as my camera was dying.

Very cool looking army. If you want to give them a celtic/nordic feel without making space wolf clones, maybe you could add the horn as an emblem of some sort, to represent Heimdall's horn and his role as watchman of the rainbow bridge? Alternatively use of celtic knot designs could be cool, and I have never seen them done on a 40k army. You could even do woad tattoos on some of the exposed faces.

Anyway just some ideas that occurred to me, but don't let me tell you what to do...

Melissia

11-23-2009, 02:28 PM

By the way, that's an awesome angel drawn upon the side of that land raider...

BuFFo

11-23-2009, 02:34 PM

And SoBs aren't female marines, females in powered armour, but totally different to marines.

You weren't around in the 90's it seems in 40k. Sisters of Battle ARE female Space Marines as far as the market is concerned. They were created because people like you complained about the exact same thing over a decade ago! The complaining never ends!

They lack loads of heavy armour and weapons

They have heavy weapons. And if you want them to carry lascannons, um, glue one on a Sister model?

they are pretty much locked into the flaming death side of combat

Yes. The Salamanders do the exact same thing flavor wise and play wise. Short ranged combat with meltas and flamers.

they look nothing alike

This is the one part of the argument I never liked.

What the heck do you want Female Marines to look like as a model if not a FEMALE!?!?! It is a suit of power armor with a female head.

My god man... What is it you want? Female Marines genetically bred and grown like male Marines? You knwo what you would get? Look at your Space Marines with helmets on... Thats what you would get!!! You would get Male looking Female Marines!

So in the end, you just want Male looking Female Marines. Just grab some Ultras and call them Female Marines!

and their backgrounds are polar opposites - one's a secular group of super commandos, the other is a religious enforcement group.

Um, then write your own background for your Female Marines?

So in the end, you seem to want Male looking Female Marines, even though GW has created Female looking Marines... You seem to not like their weapon load out, when they act exactly like Salamanders! And if you want them to carry Lascannons, I know they are metal models, but you can still convert them to carry under slung Lascannons. I have done it, and its not hard at all. And you don't like the background... Um, wild idea here... Make your own?

Sisters of Battle models are Female Marines for all intent and purposes. Buy them, convert a few of them, if any, and run them as Ultras, Salamanders, or any chapter you want. Heck, make up your own rules for them!

Melissia

11-23-2009, 02:47 PM

Sisters of Battle models are Female Marines for all intent and purposes
And Orks are just assaulty Guard for all intents and purposes. And Tau are just really shooty Eldar, too. Oh, and Necrons are just metallic Tyranids, and Chaos Space Marines are just Dark Eldar who aren't elven pansies. And Commissars are really just nice and fluffy kittens who want you to rub their tummy and get a slight bit upset when you don't, and don't really shoot people, they just give people kitty eyes instead.

Lerra

11-23-2009, 02:52 PM

A chapter based off of the DnD Drow matriarchy, where the society of the planet itself is turned on its head with males being subservient to females, whom are typically well-armed, trained, and completely lethal-- perhaps being very assault-oriented similar to the commonly depicted twin knife/twin sword style of the Drow?

I would love to see an army of any sort developed around that premise. R.A.Salvatore did an amazing job developing Drow culture and society, and it's probably one of the most popular fictional societies. Now if they could get him to write fluff for 40k it would just be perfect :)

Old_Paladin

11-23-2009, 06:57 PM

And Orks are just assaulty Guard for all intents and purposes. And Tau are just really shooty Eldar, too. Oh, and Necrons are just metallic Tyranids, and Chaos Space Marines are just Dark Eldar who aren't elven pansies. And Commissars are really just nice and fluffy kittens who want you to rub their tummy and get a slight bit upset when you don't, and don't really shoot people, they just give people kitty eyes instead.

Sarcasm overload... must retain grip on reality, before Melissia eats my soul...

Commissar Lewis

11-23-2009, 10:30 PM

Actually, on topic a bit, some day I want to make a Slaneeshi Chaos army, and I intend to use some female Chaos Marines. Fluff-wise, I'm gonna throw in my own version of Fabius Bile who perfected a process to make Chaos Marines without all the gender-loss. Course, this was after MANY subjects became spawn, and it's not so much perfected as he's minimized the failure chance to a mere 57%.

I'm gonna use a bunch of converted models, some Sisters ones (hell I could use my Repentia as berzerkers, or something similar). I dunno, this is just an idea I had that fits with this debate.

Just_Me

11-23-2009, 10:44 PM

...and it's not so much perfected as he's minimized the failure chance to a mere 57%.

Them's good odds in the grimdark :p.

Cool idea, Bile is crazy enough to do that for no better reason than to prove that he can.

Sister Rosette Soulknyt

11-24-2009, 01:22 AM

Will more female miniatures or a whole army bring more females into 40k, sadly not. Will it appeal to them maybe.
While we do have some miniatures in other armies and of course we have the SoB i for one would like to see more female miniatures.
I agree with many people here, GW just needs to practice more and produce female heads for sprues or either bring out greater cast miniatures for IG, more Eldar and hey why not SM.
With the debate over power armour covering boobs, well i agree the armour is so massive i dont think you could tell a female SM to a Male Sm with there helms on.

Guess the only way to tell them apart is which one leaves the toilet seat up all the time lol.
With me i play SoB and would love "prays GW are reading this", please bring out more options and finer quality faces for the oB as generic faces are boring, cant you make a variety, if you can do it with Space Puppies why not SoB??

BuFFo

11-24-2009, 01:55 AM

Sarcasm overload... must retain grip on reality, before Melissia eats my soul...

Yeah, I just ignore him.

He rarely brings anything useful to a topic, especially when he tries to turn any topic into a "GW killed my Sister of Battles" fest.

Melissia

11-24-2009, 07:59 AM

He rarely brings anything useful to a topicSeeing as Buffo is using a male pronoun, he's obviously referring to himself, as incongruous as that might be in context.

Faultie

11-24-2009, 09:12 AM

Gotthammer

11-24-2009, 10:37 AM

Very cool looking army. If you want to give them a celtic/nordic feel without making space wolf clones, maybe you could add the horn as an emblem of some sort, to represent Heimdall's horn and his role as watchman of the rainbow bridge? Alternatively use of celtic knot designs could be cool, and I have never seen them done on a 40k army. You could even do woad tattoos on some of the exposed faces.

Anyway just some ideas that occurred to me, but don't let me tell you what to do...

No worries - I had been considering doing some knot-art on them, I might give it a try when I get around to doing my LR Crusader. The horn is a very good idea, thankyou. I think I'll give the company standard bearer one to carry as well (Heimdall bears the Gjallarhorn as it happens).

By the way, that's an awesome angel drawn upon the side of that land raider...

Thankyou :) Got the LR through to the semis of Golden Demon, which I was rather happy with considering I assembled and painted the whole thing in two days (the time I had between its release and Demon).

You weren't around in the 90's it seems in 40k. Sisters of Battle ARE female Space Marines as far as the market is concerned. They were created because people like you complained about the exact same thing over a decade ago!

I believe you have me mistaken for someone else:
1) I've been playing and collecting since the 80s.
2) I'm part of the market (ie I buy their stuff) and they are not. Maybe to the denser sections of it, but oh well.
3) I'm not complaining - my standpoint is I enjoy the concept, I would like GW (or more prefferably Forge World) to make female kits for all armies but I accept this isn't likely so I'm doing it myself. Any umbrage I take is with people who tell me I'm wrong to do it due to rigidity in their acceptance of the background.
4) I always thought they were created to expand upon them (from their original roots in the 80s) as the Imperium is supposedly this almost oligarchy of the religious and military leaders, but almost nothing is seen of the Imperial Cult on the tabletop so the SoB were a means to bring that in.

The complaining never ends!

Irony overloooooad! ;)

They have heavy weapons. And if you want them to carry lascannons, um, glue one on a Sister model?

You can't take lascannons with Codex: Witchunters, and the models do not resemble Marines. So if I use the Sister's codex I can't play like marines, but if I use the Marine codex the model range is not suitable. How to represent scouts for example - having to ignore units to use the models only proves the point they are no match.

Yes. The Salamanders do the exact same thing flavor wise and play wise. Short ranged combat with meltas and flamers.

True, but Salamanders are not the only type of Marines - you have fast attack White Scars, heavy weapon toting Imperial Fists, a mix and match with Dark Angels, a mix of glory and darkness with the Blood Angels, and good ol' generic with the Ultras.
Sisters come in two varieties - with Ecclesiarcical units, or good.

This is the one part of the argument I never liked.

What the heck do you want Female Marines to look like as a model if not a FEMALE!?!?! It is a suit of power armor with a female head.

My god man... What is it you want? Female Marines genetically bred and grown like male Marines? You knwo what you would get? Look at your Space Marines with helmets on... Thats what you would get!!! You would get Male looking Female Marines!

So in the end, you just want Male looking Female Marines. Just grab some Ultras and call them Female Marines!

I think you need to re-read my post above with the links to pics of my army with female marines and look at said pics. Pretty much what you just said there.

Um, then write your own background for your Female Marines?

So in the end, you seem to want Male looking Female Marines, even though GW has created Female looking Marines... You seem to not like their weapon load out, when they act exactly like Salamanders! And if you want them to carry Lascannons, I know they are metal models, but you can still convert them to carry under slung Lascannons. I have done it, and its not hard at all. And you don't like the background... Um, wild idea here... Make your own?

Sisters of Battle models are Female Marines for all intent and purposes. Buy them, convert a few of them, if any, and run them as Ultras, Salamanders, or any chapter you want. Heck, make up your own rules for them!

I have made my own background, quite extensively as it happens (http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/2009/08/rainbow-warriors-background-archive.html). Sisters do not look like marines - they have tabbards and robes and fancy gloves and corsets. I haven't tried but I don't think they'd look very good in camouflage. Also how to do Terminators and Scouts?

Marshal2Crusaders

11-24-2009, 10:57 AM

As I said earlier, the Space Wolf codex states "these organs were designed so that they could be implanted into the body of an ordinary adolescant human". That reads any human, not just a male of the species - and is talking about marines in general, not just Wolves. They've changed it to be gender neutral, moving on from the WD/IA article.

Whoa there tiger, given that index Astartes further adds qualifications to that statement without one directly contradicting the other, that statement would be general, made specific by the Index Astartes article.

I go into the field for a few days and its like everyone loses their mind. You havn't justified it in fluff, Index Astartes still makes it impossible.

Its funny how these threads always come up with the stupidest ways to ignore the Creation of a Space Marine article.

Dude if you want boob marines, whatever, I want Male Sisters of Battle. Now tell me why I can't do it.

Inquisitor Soren

11-24-2009, 11:34 AM

Dude if you want boob marines, whatever, I want Male Sisters of Battle. Now tell me why I can't do it.

You very well can I was considering doing such an army, a beleaguered Imperial World in desperate peril from chaos turns to the Ecclesiarchy for guidance and a rag tag band of priests resurrect an old warrior tradition donning ancient armor and standing with faith and bolters against the coming storm.

Just something I was toying with.

As for female marines is it really that big of a deal? I mean have we all devolved to the point of fluff nasi-ing ideas that we can't even allow the idea to exist? We cite old articles when GW could very well just flip the switch and we suddenly gain female marines. I just don't understand the concept of banning painters and converts for such things from tournaments it seems odd and foolish in every way, it is a personal choice no? If I buy Models and decide to convert them what gives people the right to say no if I were to try and register with them at a tourney?

It just doesn't make sense is my point, sorry bout the rambling. If you don't wish to play such a person, fine. But banning them from a tournament for such a thing is asinine.

Gotthammer

11-24-2009, 11:39 AM

Whoa there tiger, given that index Astartes further adds qualifications to that statement without one directly contradicting the other, that statement would be general, made specific by the Index Astartes article.

I go into the field for a few days and its like everyone loses their mind. You havn't justified it in fluff, Index Astartes still makes it impossible.

It seems pretty specific on "any ordinary adolescant human" being any human, so long as they are an adolescant who is normal.

Squats used to exist, then they were eaten and now it's being hinted they never existed and were a rumour spread from space travellers. Used to be "must be male", is now any ordinary (adolescant) human.

Its funny how these threads always come up with the stupidest ways to ignore the Creation of a Space Marine article.

Quoting a current Space Marine codex is stupid? What was I thinking! Here was me thinking GW's official, most recent, book on Space Marines might shed some light on the issue when my endeavour to read and quote complete and in context lines from that text was pure folly all along! I guess I'll go back to out of print books for all my knowledge and ideas. Hmmm... Ollanius Pious, he seems pretty cool - I wonder what ever happened to him?

:p

Dude if you want boob marines, whatever, I want Male Sisters of Battle. Now tell me why I can't do it.

What is your reasoning for them besides a poor attempt at trolling? All I would tell you would be ways I think you could perhaps improve whatever reasoning you came up with as I encourage creativity in the hobby rather than stamping on it whenever it doesn't fit my worldview.

The main issue why you couldn't would be the SoB minis being highly ornate and clearly female needing a workaround.
1st option is to find a similar line of figures, probably ornate templar style knights that could take modification. A series with generic guys with crossbows would easily lend itself to bolter conversions. Reaper's Warlord line has the Crusader's faction (http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/Crusaders/sku-down) that could work, although they would need shoulderpads and =I= iconography added (lack of plastic kits will hurt here unless you're proficient with greenstuff moulding or sculpting).

For background you could do it a pre-or-during-apostasy force under Vandire, or an early M30's ecclesiarchal force. The other option is say it's a Chamber militant of a different Ordos of Inquisitors, still with a religious bent but not technically the Ecclesiarcy's army to get around the void on men under arms. Mutant Hunters or somesuch, I'm kinda making this up as I go so that's the best you're getting right now.

2nd option is to go the farcical route and have it like that episode of Slayers where the guys have to dress up as girls to hide in a temple where men are killed on sight and Zelgadis falls for a woman there and finally reveals himself to be a man but then the woman also turns out to be a man, as does every 'woman' in the temple - they were all to scared to reveal their gender due to the ban on men, and hilarity ensues.
You could probably source some 60's/Beatles type heads easily enough to fit the bob cut of the femal sisters so it's subtle enough that people might miss painting on a five o'clock shadow at first glance.
If you wanted a more serious reason it could be that the men come from a matriarchal society so the warrior men must dress like women in an inversion of the ancient habit of female warriors having to appear as men.

Nabterayl

11-24-2009, 12:06 PM

I go into the field for a few days and its like everyone loses their mind. You havn't justified it in fluff, Index Astartes still makes it impossible.
Like I said before, no it doesn't. Index Astartes says that the Imperium doesn't know how to do it. I don't think anybody doubts that.

Index Astartes is a warrant for saying that nobody in the fluff (or at least nobody anybody's heard of) knows how to make a female space marine. It is not warrant for saying that, in this universe, it is impossible to create a surgically engineered supersoldier with the same abilities as a space marine using a female host.

crazyredpraetorian

11-24-2009, 12:21 PM

I used to have a customer at one of my comic/game stores that was crazy over the idea of female space marines. He only played female characters in D&D, as well. I once caught him rubbing the breasts of a Xena action figure, it was still in it's packaging. The guy always creeped me out. Later, I found out that the guy had been banned from every store in the mall that sold magazines and that he was a registered sex offender..........:eek: Now, every time some one brings up female space marines I get that same creeped out feeling.:o

Melissia

11-24-2009, 04:36 PM

Dude if you want boob marines, whatever, I want Male Sisters of Battle. Now tell me why I can't do it.

Technically, you can. Dark Heresy has a few examples of noble houses which have the resources for small forces of power armored units in their upper elite (usually themselves the children of nobility). One could very easily turn this idea into a "brothers of battle" army. Same with an Inquisitor's personal combat force, and likely many other groups I'm too lazy to give a **** about.

As for actual "male adepta sororitas", no. Unlike Marines this is actually very specifically restricted, even in the name of the organization-- "adeptus" is for male or combined gender organizations, while "adepta" is for female-only organizations. Similarly, the term "Sisters of Battle" is quite obviously all-female, while "Marines" would be gender-neutral. I refer to other posters for reasons this might be in the fluff.

Marshal2Crusaders

11-24-2009, 05:41 PM

Technically, you can. Dark Heresy has a few examples of noble houses which have the resources for small forces of power armored units in their upper elite (usually themselves the children of nobility). One could very easily turn this idea into a "brothers of battle" army. Same with an Inquisitor's personal combat force, and likely many other groups I'm too lazy to give a **** about.

As for actual "male adepta sororitas", no. Unlike Marines this is actually very specifically restricted, even in the name of the organization-- "adeptus" is for male or combined gender organizations, while "adepta" is for female-only organizations. Similarly, the term "Sisters of Battle" is quite obviously all-female, while "Marines" would be gender-neutral. I refer to other posters for reasons this might be in the fluff.

No Mel, I want Male Adepta Sororitas, and anyone who says I can't is a fluff ****.

LEAVE MY CREATIVITY ALONE!!!

Commissar Lewis

11-24-2009, 05:47 PM

Well, this topic is spiraling into the level of bickering and trolling I used to only see on the CE board of gamefaqs.

In all honestly, it's just a ******* game, I don't know why people get so riled up and vehemently argue the background of a game that's rather vague as it is.

On a side note, anyone play the new 3.5 version of Firestorm Over Kronus for Dark Crusade? It's quite awesome, IMO.

Nabterayl

11-24-2009, 06:02 PM

You know, rather than saying what the fluff excludes, it strikes me as more useful to say what the fluff includes. You want the Ecclesiarchy to include a force of fanatical power armored men with access to the usual range of Ecclesiarchical vehicles and wargear? Fine. What are the issues that would arise in such a situation? The Decree Passive immediately springs to mind - how is that dealt with? Are these male soldiers the private army of a single ecclesiarch, whose violation of the Decree Passive has witch hunters and Sororitas hunting him down (but in the meantime, here he is on the tabletop)? Does it create a full-blown schism? The fluff doesn't prevent the Ecclesiarchy from having male soldiers. It just implies certain consequences.

We all play in our own pocket versions of the 40K universe. Ignoring fluff isn't about doing something that "can't" be done. Almost nothing is absolutely impossible in this universe. Ignoring fluff is about not treating the consequences of your additions seriously. If somebody told me that their background had a faction of the Ecclesiarchy flouting the Decree Passive to create "Brothers of Battle," and it created a painful and violent schism within the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition, that's "following the fluff" in my book. Ignoring the fluff would be to have "Brothers of Battle" in your background and have nobody care.

And if you wanted to call your fanatical power armored male church soldiers "Sisters of Battle?" Well, ok ... though I think that's a rather silly thing to call a force of all-male soldiers.

Sci-fi fandom (heck, any fandom) is not defined by rigidly following the canon. It's defined by having an encyclopedic grasp of the canon, so that in the fan's own pocket version of the sci-fi universe one or more features may be created or altered with consequences consistent with the unaltered features.

Melissia

11-24-2009, 06:08 PM

some crap
You're just intentionally being a douchebag and you know it :P

Sister Rosette Soulknyt

11-24-2009, 07:06 PM

I second that :P
Melissia i think your the modern day Adepta Sororitas,full of inspirational comments, zeal and purity to the SoB armies :)

More woman should be like you :)

Marshal2Crusaders

11-24-2009, 07:22 PM

You're just intentionally being a douchebag and you know it :P

That I am.

jeffersonian000

11-24-2009, 09:17 PM

Not to throw a wrench in the machine, but isn't "Adeptum" the gender neutral latinization of Adept, while "Adeptus" is masculine and "Adepta" feminine? So, Adeptum Astartes would be gender neutral Space Marines, while Adeptus Frateris would be Brothers of Battle.

Just saying...

SJ

Melissia

11-24-2009, 09:29 PM

Not to my knowledge, no.

The Adeptus Mechanicus has female members.
The Adeptus Arbites has female members.
The Adeptus Terra has female members.
Adeptus Astronumica, Adeptus Astra Telepathica... etc etc etc.

Collectively, they are referred to as "the adepta", referring to the organizations themselves (meaning the word itself is feminine, although it has a masculine aspect in Adeptus).

Nabterayl

11-24-2009, 10:46 PM

I humbly suggest that we not read too much, linguistically, into GW's deliberately-bad-Latin-standing-for-fictional-High-Gothic.

Gotthammer

11-25-2009, 10:39 AM

Adeptus is a verb, not a noun, so has no gender. It is the perfect participle active of adispiscor, which means rougly "to best, attain or acquire".

In context it could make Adeptus Mechanicus something like "Acquirers of the Mechanical". Adeptus Astartes is likely meant to mean "Masters of the Stars", or "The Star's will be Taken" (sky's the limit?). Tense is obviously not clear.

It is basically a sentance fragment, and Astartes isn't latin for anything as far as I know - certainly nothing like space, star, universe or galaxy (nor heaven or the like). Adepta is similarly the latin version of engrish (latinius? latonious? latineus maximus?) making it feminie, but it's not something you can make have a feminine grammatical gender - it's like having a male, female or neuter form of swimming - doesn't happen.

Rick Priestly likely learnt latin in school, but is either forgetful or (more likely in my opinion) screwing around with it to make it sound better.

Melissia

11-25-2009, 12:13 PM

Ignore the Latin roots. In this case, "Adepta" is in "High Gothic", referring to either an all-female "Adeptus" organization or to all "Adeptus" organizations collectively.

The former would be, of course, the "Adepta Sororitas", while the latter would be something like "The various Adepta on this world convened to discuss last week's rioting."

jeffersonian000

11-25-2009, 01:44 PM

That makes sense, especially in light of the Sisters of Battle being referenced to in their 2nd Ed codex as the Ordo Militant of the Adepta Sororitas.

SJ

dagonis

11-25-2009, 01:52 PM

tl;dr

There are no female space marines in the current 40k fluff. Over the entire spectrum of all the books and materials written there is never once a mention of a female space marine. Though I haven't read it all myself, I suspect if is was mentioned that someone in this thread would have brought it up.

Does this mean there can't be? Not necessarily, but as marines become effectively androgynous why does it even matter?

Melissia

11-25-2009, 02:00 PM

If Astartes become androgynous, why SHOULD it matter if the candidate was male or female before they became an Astartes?

That makes sense, especially in light of the Sisters of Battle being referenced to in their 2nd Ed codex as the Ordo Militant of the Adepta Sororitas.

SJ

No, that's the "Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas".

This is because there are non-militant orders (the most famous being the Orders Hospitalier, the Orders Dialogous, and the Orders Famulous); each "chapter" sized group of Sororitas is referred to as an Order, IE, "Order of the Bloody Rose" and "Order of the Ebon Chalice".

Nabterayl

11-25-2009, 04:29 PM

This is because there are non-militant orders (the most famous being the Orders Hospitalier, the Orders Dialogous, and the Orders Famulous)
You know better than that :p The Orders Hospitaller, Orders Dialogous and Orders Famulous are types of orders.

For those who don't know better than that - the Adepta Sororitas contains a large and unspecified number of orders, which, like Mel said, are somewhat analogous to space marine chapters or regiments (though the actual size of an order is never specified). These orders are divided into four main (and unspecified number of minor) types: the Orders Militant, the Orders Hospitaller, the Orders Dialogous, and the Orders Famulous. All Sororitas are trained to fight, but it is only the Orders Militant whose job it is to fight. The other types of orders have different jobs - as tending the sick and wounded, keeping abreast of Low Gothic and xenos dialects, and keeping watch on the powerful houses of the Imperium, respectively.

Melissia

11-25-2009, 04:41 PM

Technically yes. Even the lowest ranked Sister of every Order, militant or non-militant, has recieved all the training of a Stormtrooper and more.

Artein

11-25-2009, 06:08 PM

And will a militant Sister recieve a basic training in Hospitaller/Dialogous/Famulous stuff?

Just_Me

11-25-2009, 07:10 PM

You know better than that :p The Orders Hospitaller, Orders Dialogous and Orders Famulous are types of orders.

For those who don't know better than that - the Adepta Sororitas contains a large and unspecified number of orders, which, like Mel said, are somewhat analogous to space marine chapters or regiments (though the actual size of an order is never specified). These orders are divided into four main (and unspecified number of minor) types: the Orders Militant, the Orders Hospitaller, the Orders Dialogous, and the Orders Famulous. All Sororitas are trained to fight, but it is only the Orders Militant whose job it is to fight. The other types of orders have different jobs - as tending the sick and wounded, keeping abreast of Low Gothic and xenos dialects, and keeping watch on the powerful houses of the Imperium, respectively.

I have always suspected that the reason Orders have never been given fixed numbers or organizations is because they are loose groupings of religious disciplines. Just like there are discrete monastic orders who are separated by subtle differences in the way they practice, or the specific requirements (e.g. vows of silence, specific requirements on hair, other such odd things...). So each Order would have a variable number of Sisters depending on how many choose to dedicate themselves to a given sect.

That, or it's just a symptom of GW's lack of adequate support for the Sororitas :p. The more I think about it the more inclined I am to agree with Melissa that they should have their own dedicated codex, entirely separate from the Ordos Hereticus.

Melissia

11-25-2009, 07:59 PM

And will a militant Sister recieve a basic training in Hospitaller/Dialogous/Famulous stuff?

Nope. Their training instead raises their sklil to Astartes levels.

Just_Me

11-25-2009, 08:28 PM

Nope. Their training instead raises their sklil to Astartes levels.

Well, possibly a little in the Hospitaller domain, insofar as soldiers nearly always receive basic first aid training.

Melissia

11-25-2009, 08:39 PM

I was using Dark Heresy as the basis, but yeah, they'd know some basic first aid training (Hospitalier), some basic knowledge of the enemies of the Imperium (Dialogous) and the factions within the Imperium (Famulous), but the thing is that their main focus is Battle. Thus, Sisters of Battle.

In Dark Heresy:

The Dialogous gets a good bit of lore, languages, and logic based skills
The Famula get a ton of Imperial lore and then some nobility based skills
Hospitalier gets chem use, medicae, lots of defensive and technical skils and various lores
Militants get a ton of combat skills, with their lore being mostly military in nature

In fact, based on Dark Heresy, the Sisters Hospitalier could fulfill the roles of both medics and techpriests...

Just_Me

11-25-2009, 09:00 PM

In fact, based on Dark Heresy, the Sisters Hospitalier could fulfill the roles of both medics and techpriests...

Very curious, though I suppose the wide use of augmetics in medicine could explain some of that. I should take a closer look at the Sisters info in DH.

Dark Heresy has, in my opinion, done great things for the more intimate background of the 40k universe, not to mention finally giving my personal golden boys the Ordos Xenos some face-time. Now if only I could find a gaming group to play it...

Melissia

11-25-2009, 09:51 PM

Get on the IGMB, we run a few games. I'm certain The Envoy or ElegaicRequiem would let you in to one of our games.

http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi

Nabterayl

11-27-2009, 10:38 PM

Technically yes. Even the lowest ranked Sister of every Order, militant or non-militant, has recieved all the training of a Stormtrooper and more.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Sisters are products of the schola progenia just like storm troopers, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that either (i) the schola teach both of them all they know, or (ii) even if all of the training is done "in house" at the schola, all products of the schola go through the same training.

If you have a specific warrant for claiming that all Sororitas have storm trooper training, I'd love to hear it, but I'm not aware of one. In the absence of one, it seems most likely to me that all products of the schola progenia go through some amount of military training, followed by additional training (either within or without the schola; I'm not sure we have any sources that are clear on this) depending on the orphan's ultimate destination. After all, commissars, storm troopers, and Sororitas all come out of the schola - but we wouldn't infer from that that all storm troopers have the propagandistic and leadership skills of a commissar, or that all commissars have the skills of a Sororitas, right? So why would we infer that all Sororitas have storm trooper training?

For that matter, what warrant do we have to assume that sisters of battle have superior training to storm troopers? I've never really gotten that impression myself.

Just_Me

11-28-2009, 01:19 AM

If you have a specific warrant for claiming that all Sororitas have storm trooper training, I'd love to hear it, but I'm not aware of one. In the absence of one, it seems most likely to me that all products of the schola progenia go through some amount of military training, followed by additional training (either within or without the schola; I'm not sure we have any sources that are clear on this) depending on the orphan's ultimate destination. After all, commissars, storm troopers, and Sororitas all come out of the schola - but we wouldn't infer from that that all storm troopers have the propagandistic and leadership skills of a commissar, or that all commissars have the skills of a Sororitas, right? So why would we infer that all Sororitas have storm trooper training?

Well, we do know that all Commissars receive complete Storm Trooper training and often serve a stint in the Storm Troopers. So it is not unreasonable to assume that basic Storm Trooper training is the baseline for all Schola training, sort like all USMC personal have to fully qualify as riflemen before whatever specialist training they receive (be that as a Cobra pilot or a cook). While I agree that Sisters do not seem to receive identical training to the Storm Troopers, it does seem, from the level of discipline and competence demonstrated by the Sisters, that their training must be at lest equal the that of the STs (though not, I would say, the equal of Astartes).

Get on the IGMB, we run a few games. I'm certain The Envoy or ElegaicRequiem would let you in to one of our games.

http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi

Thanks for the info, I went ahead and made an account there. I will brush up on the rules, and when I get a little extra free time (say, after the end of the fall semester) I will look into contacting someone about a joining a game. I'm already looking forward to it.

Melissia

11-28-2009, 07:44 AM

I was referring to martial prowess training, rather than actual training as a stormtrooper. Stormtroopers use stealth and so on as a weapon, while Commissars and Sororitas do not, but when it comes to discipline and marksmanship, basic Battle Sisters and Stormtroopers are fairly close (I would argue that Sisters become better in both aspects the more time they spend with their order).

And I would argue that after they graduate, THEN their training is at the level of the Astartes, unrelenting and harsh, to the point where many Sororitas hopefuls aren't able to make it, and are instead relegated to service to the Ecclesiarchy. Dark Heresy mentions that for many novices, even though they graduated from the Schola Progenium, they weren't good enough for the Sisterhood, failing in some way. It's why the Orders Militant are typically smaller than the non-militant Orders.

Sangre

11-28-2009, 09:28 AM

Their training cannot be at the level of the Astartes. Their bodies couldn't handle it - Astartes are seven-foot supermen, Sororitas are *CENSORED BY THE INQUISITION*.

Bigred

11-28-2009, 10:17 AM

Play nice...

Sangre

11-28-2009, 11:03 AM

Bigred, I love you dearly, but you've yet to unravel some of the nuances of my sweet british humour.

DarkLink

11-28-2009, 12:59 PM

Astartes train pretty much non-stop, when they're not deployed. Something in the range of 19-20 hours a day, with only about four hours of sleep. That is physically impossible for a human to maintain for extended periods of time.

To put it in perspective, US Army Rangers have a month long program as part of their training. During this month, they get less than four hours of sleep at night, spending the rest of their time training in field exercises. This lasts one month.

At the end of this month, most of these people have lost 20-30 lbs. And remember, these guys are already in very good physical condition, meaning that that isn't 20 lbs of body fat they lots, it's lean muscle mass. If this part of Ranger training were any longer, then the Rangers would be physically incapable of fighting. In fact, it wouldn't take long for them to kill themselves from sheer exhaustion.

Lerra

11-28-2009, 02:35 PM

Sororitas don't train using the same methods as Astartes, but they get similar results. Sororitas are not as strong or tough as Astartes, but they have a similar level of competency with weapons, and psychologically, they are at least as strong as Astartes.

Commissar Lewis

11-29-2009, 10:44 PM

Damn, that Rangers program sounds brutal. And I thought the SEALs entrance test was gruelling and the Hell Week was hellish after seeing something about the SEALs on TV.

BuFFo

11-30-2009, 12:20 AM

jeffersonian000

11-30-2009, 03:43 AM

??

Sisters are S3.

Marines are S4.

The statement was that psychologically, Sisters are as strong as Marines. That is more along the lines of their Leadership stat, not their Strength stat.

SJ

Melissia

11-30-2009, 07:17 AM

Sororitas DO train that hard. And yes, most Battle Sisters don't make it. That's why there's only a few million of them in the entire galaxy that contains countless trillions of humans. The ones that manage to succeed in the Sororitas training regimen tare truly impressive individuals. No, the training cannot make a Sister as strong as an Astartes, or as tough, but it DOES eventually make them as skilled and as fast as one in power armor (mind you, only the most elite of Sisters are able to reach that level aside from marksmanship, but they're still better than any human organization).

As controversial as this might be, I'm going to point out that the average Ork has the same skill in close combat as an average Astartes. The main reason Astartes slaughter most Orks so well is because they're worlds apart in terms of speed (aside from the larger specimens, whom are actually faster than the smaller more common Boyz). Orks are born with close combat skill, embedded in their very genes beyond the level that any human is, and indeed they're even born with a basic understanding of combat tactics (which they often willfully ignore).

Astartes have one main advantage... they fight the enemy on areas of their choosing, at the time of their choosing, fighting only the enemies that they choose to fight. Their rapid attacks-- whether it be by drop pod, thunderhawk, or rhino and razorback-- strike the enemy before they can bring the full force of their army against the Astartes, and decimate enemy ranks before their slower military machines can react. This is a considerable advantage, and one the Astartes are smart enough to take advantage of (for the most part). This is also why they don't typically rely on massed formations and heavy tanks, like the Guard or other armies do.

BuFFo

11-30-2009, 09:06 AM

No, the training cannot make a Sister as strong as an Astartes, or as tough, but it DOES eventually make them as skilled and as fast as one in power armor...

Sisters are WS3 and I3.

Marines are WS4 and I4.

Except for marksMENship, Sisters are not as skilled nor as fast as Marines. Nor are they as Psychologically as strong as Marines, since Marines have ATSKNF which means Marines will fight to the death. Sisters run from battle like any stock Guardsman, albeit at 1 point of LD higher.

Regardless if its fluff or table top, Sisters of Battle are inferior to Marines, but then again, so is just about everything else in the Galaxy.

Marshal2Crusaders

11-30-2009, 09:19 AM

Sisters are WS3 and I3.

Marines are WS4 and I4.

Except for marksMENship, Sisters are not as skilled nor as fast as Marines. Nor are they as Psychologically as strong as Marines, since Marines have ATSKNF which means Marines will fight to the death. Sisters run from battle like any stock Guardsman, albeit at 1 point of LD higher.

Regardless if its fluff or table top, Sisters of Battle are inferior to Marines, but then again, so is just about everything else in the Galaxy.

And we're off!!!

Jwolf

11-30-2009, 09:22 AM

BuFFo

11-30-2009, 11:18 AM

I know it seems like fun at the time to troll and counter-troll one another, but 6 months from now you'll probably look back and think you were a jerk for typing that stuff in.

That assumes the person matures. I doubt it.

Just_Me

11-30-2009, 11:34 AM

I swear, the hair-pulling and not quite namecalling here is like being in a classroom with 10 year olds.

I know it seems like fun at the time to troll and counter-troll one another, but 6 months from now you'll probably look back and think you were a jerk for typing that stuff in.

I'm getting vaguely tired of the percentage of TOS editable posts in this thread. The topic allows some sexism / gender bias, but do please stop poking fingers in each others' eyes for no good reason.

I couldn't agree more, I am all for intelligent intellectual debate, but snarky self-serving barbs help no one and generally detract from the forum as a whole. I have left several forums in the past because they became completely consumed by such things and lost all semblance of interesting or informative debate. And I really don't see that sexism or gender bias are ever acceptable, just on general principle, though I suppose it is hard to avoid having some bleed through on a topic like this.

Lerra

11-30-2009, 11:42 AM

Edit: Whoops, I was confusing ATSKNF with Combat Tactics. Moving on . . .

I'm not arguing that Sisters are identical to space marines, only that their training regimen is also extremely tough, and you have to admit that it's fairly impressive that they are able to train unaltered human beings up to the stats of Sisters (or IG Veterans, or any human unit with high stats).

As far as the Marks"Man"ship comment goes, marksmanship is one of the few IRL sporting events where women regularly compete with men, even at the highest levels. There is no gender advantage in marksmanship. Of all of the possible choices to show female inferiority, marksmanship was probably the worst one you could have chosen.

Just_Me

11-30-2009, 11:58 AM

As far as the Marks"Man"ship comment goes, marksmanship is one of the few IRL sporting events where women regularly compete with men, even at the highest levels. There is no gender advantage in marksmanship. Of all of the possible choices to show female inferiority, marksmanship was probably the worst one you could have chosen.

So very true, I am a very good shot, but some of the best shooters I have competed with or against have been women, and my sister has done better competitively then I have.

Melissia

11-30-2009, 12:22 PM

JWolf et al: Ignore Buffo, he's obviously has never looked at C:WH and quite frankly it's doubtful he even read my post to begin with. Apparently he didn't bother to read it when I said "eventually", meaning that I wasn't saying basic Battle Sisters-- occasionally fresh out of the Schola Progenium-- are equal to Astartes. Also, he apparently doesn't yet realize that Seraphim and Celestians are, indeed, WS4 and I4 (Indeed, Celestians if you want to use the tabletop for an idea on how skilled a fighter is, Celestians are actually more skilled than anyone outside of HQ choices). And if he wants to use ATSKNF, many Marine players have stated that as powerful as that rule is, they would willingly give that up for the Book of St. Lucius, and ESPECIALLY for Acts of Faith..

My post still stands-- and all its points with it. Humans can reach very high piinnacles of skill and motivation, and the Sororitas are THE example of this. Astartes have distinct advantages over humans, but humans are by no means an incapable species.

Jwolf

11-30-2009, 12:28 PM

If only one person were acting badly in this thread, I would remove their posts and admonish them to behave privately. As multiple persons are doing so, I am admonishing in a general and public fashion.

Let me be clear: The basic simple principle one should follow is the golden rule - Speak of other posters as you would have them speak of you. I find it hard to intervene in the ongoing snarkiness, as both sides are guilty of intentional and repeated personal spitefulness, but no one has "jumped the shark," so to speak.

Abuzorg

11-30-2009, 12:32 PM

This is true for Ultramarines, but Space Wolves, Dark Angels, BAs, and BTs do not have ATSKNF. Sisters are actually higher Ld than Space Wolves in their basic troops (Ld 9 vs. 8), although if there is a Wolf Guard present then the Space Wolves are tied with Sisters.

Actually, they all have ATSKNF, plus BT are fearless in CC.

Melissia

11-30-2009, 12:36 PM

And by that technicality, Sisters can easilly become stronger than any Marine without a powerfist (and as strong as those with one), and faster than Eldar, and so on and so forth. While I base raw skill, agility, strength, and toughness on the stats given to them, remember that not everything in the game should be taken at face value.

BuFFo

11-30-2009, 12:51 PM

JWolf et al: Ignore Buffo, he's obviously has never looked at C:WH

I own the book.

and quite frankly it's doubtful he even read my post to begin with.

I read your post.

Apparently he didn't bother to read it when I said "eventually", meaning that I wasn't saying basic Battle Sisters-- occasionally fresh out of the Schola Progenium-- are equal to Astartes.

Whatever potential Sisters may have, the Marine's potential is still far beyond.

Also, he apparently doesn't yet realize that Seraphim and Celestians are, indeed, WS4 and I4 (Indeed, Celestians if you want to use the tabletop for an idea on how skilled a fighter is, Celestians are actually more skilled than anyone outside of HQ choices).

I quoted stat lines, and it's quite obvious those stat lines are from the basic Sister and the basic Ultra Marine.

No where did I mention Elites of either army, because if I did, Marines would still be better, because Sister's Elites equal the basic Marine grunt.

And if he wants to use ATSKNF, many Marine players have stated that as powerful as that rule is, they would willingly give that up for the Book of St. Lucius, and ESPECIALLY for Acts of Faith..

What a player wants for their army is irrelevant to the discussion.

The Ultra Marines, of which is the basic marine I am using here as my example, doesn't require 'magic' to be the toughest sonso*****es. They just are. They will fight to death because they are trained to do so with their own determination and discipline. They don't require their leaders to keep them in line like other armies, not just sisters.

Sisters have acts of faith, IG have Commissars, Tau have Ethreals, Nids have the Hive Mind... Ultra Marines aren't even Fearless due to some demon mindedness or suicidal tendency. Ultra Marines are just that bad *** on an individual level.

My post still stands-- and all its points with it.

No, not reeally.

Melissia

11-30-2009, 01:06 PM

Since you claim to read my post, Buffo, then try responding to my post. I even went on and further explained it just to be sure, but you still have apparently glossed over what I said to rant about some crap I never said. I have better things to do than respond to trolls.

Valkerie

11-30-2009, 02:05 PM

BuFFo

11-30-2009, 03:06 PM

The really depressing thing about this thread is that the original question was not, should there be female space marines? The original question was, if GW made female space marines, would that bring in more female gamers? We seem to have traveled so far from the OTand so far into personal attacks that, IMO, this thread should probably be locked, and possibly deleted.

I have already stated a few times in this thread that GW DOES make female space marine models.

They are called Sisters of Battle.

Just buy the models, and BAM, use them as your own female marine chapter.

This very issue came up in the mid 90's, and to address this, GW's development team created a female force in power armor. It seems players are never satisfied with GW, even in the rare instances where GW provides exactly what the players want.

Melissia

11-30-2009, 07:05 PM

I have already stated a few times in this thread that GW DOES make female space marine models.

And you are, and have always been, wrong. Even in Rogue Trader, the Sisters were not Marines. They were not in second edition, they are not in fifth edition either. No matter how much you rant and rave about how Sisters are Marines, they are not.

Nabterayl

11-30-2009, 07:13 PM

That wasn't his point, Mel. His point was this:

How would female space marine miniatures differ from sisters of battle miniatures? Would they differ enough to justify the cost of a separate line of miniatures?

BuFFo's answer to those questions is that they wouldn't differ enough to justify a separate line of miniatures. Personally, I'm inclined to agree.

Sister Rosette Soulknyt

11-30-2009, 07:57 PM

If someone can't understand the differnece between a Sister of Battle in Power armour and a Space Marine in power armour then i suggest glasses.

Average SoB height: 5ft 7
Average SM: 7ft to 8ft

Yes they both wear power armour but one is so giant by human standards it has to be built for there girth, wieght and mass.
SoB armour is designed for not only protection, but style, and form fitting.
Gw could and should do a line of SM females, it would bring a new idea, concept and fluff to the universe of the game, and hey i think would bring a lot of new players to be interested in the fluff.
Check SW, when they came out suddenly down here in my area 6 new armies of the Frothing SM appeared.

Easiest way riht now is to place a SM next to a SoB and you can see the differences already. SoB are not genetically enhanced, dont have a dozen new organs, but simple human woman trained beyond excellence with Faith and training in Martial combats to excel at destroying there enemies.
By training they are the same as a SM, compare there WS and BS, they just dont have the T of one due to lack of genetics.
Im all for female SM, hey ive been playing this game so many years now, id love to see them. To me, SM are all the same, just different colours, and with a Female Chapter i think would be great.

Nabterayl

11-30-2009, 08:07 PM

I get all that, but from a strictly visual standpoint, I don't really think that a line of female marines is a particularly worthwhile project. I know that unhelmeted female heads on a marine body tend to look small, and so people would like to have space marine scale unhelmeted female heads. I know that sisters bodies tend to look small compared to marine bodies, which poses a problem for using sisters models as counts-as female space marines.

I'm not suggesting that the present situation is perfect. I'm suggesting that the imperfections aren't serious enough to justify a new line of miniatures. Unless people are suggesting a series of metal conversion packs that essentially amount to space marine scale unhelmeted female heads? That seems more likely to be economically worthwhile.

Melissia

11-30-2009, 09:04 PM

How would female space marine miniatures differ from sisters of battle miniatures? Would they differ enough to justify the cost of a separate line of miniatures?
1: The armor would be astartes-shaped. Look at the difference between Sororitas shoulders and Astartes shoulders, and the differences between chest of the Astartes and the "bodice" that they put on the Sororitas armor for some godforsaken reason.

2: The armor would not have the fleur de lys. That is the symbol of the Sororitas, and is not used by Astartes.

3: The armor would more than likely not have symbols such as the chaplet ecclesiasticus or the various inquisitorial symbols that some models carry.

I don't argue that you'd be able to tell a helmeted female astartes from a helmeted male astartes actually.

Lerra

12-01-2009, 12:52 AM

BuFFo

12-01-2009, 01:35 AM

Keep in mind that GW tends to do what is cool instead of what is realistic or practical. If they ever did a line of female space marines, it's likely that they would have their own version of power armor just for the "cool" factor.

Why female space marines would be awesome, in one picture: http://www.bestnintendods.com/_wizardimages/20070927_samus_aran.jpg

That Samus just looks like a regular Sister of Battle in her battle armor to me. Her armor in no way even comes close to the bulkiness of space marine armor.

GW already made a line of female space marines...

I really don't understand what it is you guys are looking for.

1) Female space marines can look female, of which GW has already created an entire army of them in the mid 90's.

2) Female space marines that basically look like men. Do you think that it would look attractive, pleasing or even realistic (in a fantasy sense) to have 7 foot tall woman, yet not have bulky male bodies? They would look exactly like regular ultra marine models, but with boobs? And if no boobs, then they would just look like Ultra Marines, so whats the point? The only difference would be to have some female marines have giant female heads!

So if you want Female marines that look female, buy Sisters of Battle. If you want Female marines encased in male marine armor, then buy Ultra Marines?

I am not being difficult at all. I really don't understand what it is people here want... If this is all about GW just making a female chapter official, well, um, why? Just make your own female marine chapter with your own fluff and be done with it!

I understand that some of you want plastic female marine models without all the sister of battle junk decorating it. I would be all for that! But GW will never do this. It just isn't worth it, especially since in their eyes, Sisters of Battles already addressed this issue of the female marine 15 years ago.

Melissia

12-01-2009, 07:29 AM

That's probably because you're blind, Buffo. No matter how much you scream it, Sisters of Battle are not, and have never been, female Astartes.

BuFFo

12-01-2009, 08:11 AM

..... female Astartes.

Cold hard fact. There never will be female Astartes in the way you want them. Keep on dreaming.

Melissia

12-01-2009, 08:14 AM

Cold hard fact. There never will be female Astartes in the way you want them. Keep on dreaming.When did I ever say I actually wanted them? I don't. As I have said multiple times, I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, pointing out the flaws in your arguments (which are legion) and those of others and so on and so forth. Pay attention, Buffo.

Mystery.Shadow

12-01-2009, 12:41 PM

Buffo, watch out for Melissia. Chuck Norris checks under his bed for her.... I wouldn't mess with anyone Chuck Norris is afraid of.

Ok, fluffwise, there are no Female Space Marines.

Sure would be nice to have Female Models in the event one were to choose to integrate Females into their Army, or create an all-woman Chapter. Why not??

Where are all the Female Imperial Guardsmen?? They're in the Fluff. Why no models?!

Rapture

12-01-2009, 12:46 PM

Where are all the Female Imperial Guardsmen?? They're in the Fluff. Why no models?!

The would need heads, torsos, arms, and legs. That is basically a full plastic kit because I doubt it would look good if they could share parts with male models. The cost to get them started would be high so there would have to be a decent demand to keep them going.

Adeptus Mechanicus

12-02-2009, 07:33 PM

First of all, their cannot be female space marines. The emperor decreed that the gene seed does not work for females. Second, what about the sisters of battle?:confused:

Melissia

12-02-2009, 07:35 PM

Adeptus Mechanicus: Read the thread before you respond, also, cite your sources if you want to claim that the Emperor decreed that.

Rapture: Who's to say there isn't enough? A great many people have expressed a desire to have mixed regiments or all-female regiments. I woudl imagine that more people would buy female Guard models than would buy Stormtrooper models at least.

Sister Rosette Soulknyt

12-02-2009, 10:34 PM

Though i cant confirm this as i dont play IG, go back a few codex's and look in there somewhere where it lists other regiments from worlds other than Cadio, or Mordian, im sure (but not conclusive) they once listed a all female IG regiment, something akin to Amazons..
Now i could be wrong but can someone check...i dont have the source materials.

I agree who said that the Emporer NEVER made a female Sm chapter/Legion. How many Chapters of Space Marines are there, how many have gone missing and how many are unrecorded over the thousands of years of history.
It states in the Sm codex that...:its impossible to ascertain when some Chapters where created. Indeed it is impossible to say for certain how many Chapters have been created. All that is known is that there are a thousand Chapters in existnace today......"

So please show me where it says with absolute proof that the possibility that there is NOT female SM. There are possible flaws in that maybe just maybe they did create a Chapter of females, its Fluff so possible.
And Buffo stop comparing the Sisters of Battle with SM they are geneticallly enhanced in the same ways.
How many times do you need to read this?? Or are just an antogonist looking to stir trouble??

And lastly IF GW brought out female IG or Sm id be broke in minutes, i'd love to add more female components to my already female SoB army. Currently the only male elements to my army is the Arbites and Storm Troopers, oh and Inq Rex. Everything else is female or converted to female.

Sangre

12-02-2009, 10:49 PM

The Origins of the Legiones Astartes, Rick Priestly (White Dwarf 98)

There we are. Source for my original post. No female marines. Case solved.

Melissia

12-02-2009, 11:33 PM

... which was released in February 1988. Not exactly recent or reliable fluff by any standards, considering it's been over two decades since it was published.

Nabterayl

12-03-2009, 12:55 AM

The Origins of the Legiones Astartes, Rick Priestly (White Dwarf 98)

There we are. Source for my original post. No female marines. Case solved.
Which tells us this (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=37350&postcount=143). That's all.

Kahoolin

12-03-2009, 02:04 AM

Let me be clear: The basic simple principle one should follow is the golden rule - Speak of other posters as you would have them speak of you.Nice sentiment Jwolf, but the problem with the Golden Rule on the net is that you'll always get some simpleton who claims that they expect people to be ****heads to them, so it's OK for them to be a ****head to everyone else.

I really don't think any more females would play 40k if there was a chapter of female marines. I mean... come on. For a female to get over gender role conditioning enough to even seriously investigate playing 40k, they would have to be beyond picking their army on the grounds of femininity.

They are already considering playing a space war game traditionally dominated by nerdy smelly guys. None of the (unfortunately few) female players I've met picked their armies because they seemed to be the appropriate choice for a girl. The very fact they wanted to play 40k means they don't CARE what the appropriate choice for a girl is, because playing 40k is in itself an inappropriate choice for a girl according to traditional gender roles.

Sangre

12-03-2009, 02:27 AM

... which was released in February 1988. Not exactly recent or reliable fluff by any standards, considering it's been over two decades since it was published.

Find me more recent, contradictory fluff, or don't complain.

Melissia

12-03-2009, 07:06 AM

I don't have to. More recent fluff has the Mechanicus able to make seemingly drastic changes to gene-seed (IE, the cursed foundings are usually a result of this), and that's all the justification that a player would need to say his or her Female Astartes exist.

Gotthammer

12-03-2009, 10:38 AM

Find me more recent, contradictory fluff, or don't complain.

The Space Wolf codex states "these organs were designed so that they could be implanted into the body of an ordinary adolescant human". It seems pretty specific on "any ordinary adolescant human" being any human, so long as they are an adolescant who is normal.

Old_Paladin

12-03-2009, 11:22 AM

In regards to the space wolf codex:
There is a general truth about the order of logic in similar (yet expanding) statemnets; that if given a general statement and a more precise statement (that doesn't contradict the general statement), you assume the precise statement for accuracy.

For example; if I say I see a glass full of clear liquid and say "Thats a glass of water"; then a scientist says "That's a glass of salted water." My statement is true, but the other statement is more accurate.

Wolves might say, "it'll work on people"; but Index Astartes still says "it works on male people"
See the pattern of general to precise. And if wolves is meant to expand the fluff; don't you think they'd have gone a little further and had at least a story about a "Mistress of the Pack" or "The Huntress"?

Untill I see an actual story piece about a female marine; a passing general statement will not over-ride specific doctrine.

Now; If you want to make a Lone Wolf that is a seven foot tall woman in power armour with waist lenth hair shooting an 8 foot bow with titanium, explosive tipped arrows, called "The Huntress." Or, convent up a sister of battle with wolfclaws, count is as the cyberwolf (or whatever the upgrade to the wolf pack is called), and call her the "Mistress of the Pack." Then I won't stop you; it would actually be kinda cool.

Gotthammer

12-03-2009, 12:30 PM

I agree it is not a definative statement, but it would have been much easier to say "the body of an ordinary adolescant male" - the context makes it clear they're talking about humans so it seems rather redundant. I don't think GW will ever say female marines are official, but they are certainly not carrying over the males only line into any of the recent codexes.

My personal opinion is that this is to do with GW's recent push to emphasise the creative side of the hobby - they're showing non-employee's conversions on the site, have guides for kitbashing etc etc. Take out the men only bit and someone who picks up the codex and has the thought of using both genders in their chapter they won't be 'blocked' from doing it, and will thus be buying more of GWs stuff (side note - I find it interesting that most people talk about female marines they assume an all female chapter, not just here but in almost any conversation on the topic). Similar line of thinking to how you can use Pedro or Vulkan in any army (so buy the mini regardless of your Chapter), but more subtle.

Now; If you want to make a Lone Wolf that is a seven foot tall woman in power armour with waist lenth hair shooting an 8 foot bow with titanium, explosive tipped arrows, called "The Huntress."

"How was that?"
"Not bad... for a girl."
"Hey that was pretty good for Rambo!"

I may just steal that one :D

Soundgear

12-03-2009, 01:11 PM

As much as I am loathe to do so, I find I have to agree with Buffo. Melissa, I don't think you are looking past his somewhat inflammatory remarks to see his point. There are models that will proxy for "female marines". The SoB models will do that.

Stop thinking about them as "Sisters" or "Marines". When you remove the labels, model A is a female in power armor, model B is a male in power armor. If I want model A to use C:SM, I have every right to do so. Models do not have a built-in statline, the books have that. I can proxy, and they are a pretty close fit as far as proxies go. They would also meet any tournament guildlines I have seen, as they are 100% GW models. As far as iconography goes, the fleur de lys is not just a Sisters icon. It is also acceptable as a SM chapter icon. Refer to the Red Templars in "How To Paint Space Marines". The fleur de lys is even given as an example in the "chapter badge" section for making your own chapter. My wife runs a female SM chapter with SoB models, and has only ever run into one issue. It was at a tournament, and a person refused to play her because "there aren't female marines". The-udges came over, looked at her army and list, saw that it was valid, and gave her the match be default. Nobody complained for the rest of the day, and she did fairly well for herself. She has a full and interesting backstory for them, and most people seem to enjoy it and find it interesting. It's the same as Goatboy using C:SW for a Chaos Army. I could scream "There aren't any Chaos Space Wolves", but I don't. If you want to get technical, there is only one color for SW, gray, because there is NO successor chapters for SW (that survived). That doesn't stop people from playing Blue, Green, Red or Black SW. So why should a model choice stop someone from playing an army.

Does GW need to make more female models to interest females into playing? I doubt it. If the person in question wants to play a female army, they will probably find a way.

Melissia

12-03-2009, 02:31 PM

The SoB models will do that.

No, they won't. Sororitas models do not look like Astartes models any more than Eldar models do, or Meganobz do, or Tau Battlesuits, and os on and so forth. When you remove the label "Tau Battlesuit", why shouldn't someone be allowed to make an army of battlesuits and say they're astartes? Why not use meganobz to represent terminators? Why not use eldar to represent tacticals and scouts?

No, I'm not buying that crap. You can use whatever models you want and say they "count as", but that's all it is. Sisters of Battle models are no more representative of female Space Marines than any of the above.

Nabterayl

12-03-2009, 02:51 PM

So basically your counts-as standard is just higher than ours? I mean, if you gave me a sister of battle and an XV8 and asked, "Which of these looks like more like a space marine?" I wouldn't say "I don't know; they both look equally like a space marine to me."

As for why somebody couldn't make a space marine army using meganobz as terminators, eldar as tacs and scouts ... uh, I don't know. Why not? I'd certainly be down with that.

Melissia

12-03-2009, 03:03 PM

I'd certainly play against that, as long as they were clear about which models were what (banshees as assault marines without jump packs would be neat). But yes, I would argue that Sisters look very little like Astartes models to me, similarly to the other examples.

Soundgear

12-03-2009, 03:32 PM

Melissa, your reductio ad absurdum is a poor straw man at best. Tau, Orks, and Eldar aren't even from the same basic genetics as humans and marines. But, if someone lovingly converted and customized an entire Battlesuit army to match SM standards, I would happily play against them. You seem to not understand the spirit of the hobby. By your standard, I couldn't use a IG stormtrooper for an Arbite squad, and Eldar Guardian with spiky bits glued on for a Dark Eldar Warrior, or use Goblin Wolf Rider wolves for my Thunderwolf Calvary.

I will use your own argument to disprove SM scouts:
1. Genetic Enhancement + Power Armor = Space Marine (Astartes)
2. Genetic Enhancement + Scout Armor = Scout (Astartes)
3. Genetic Enhancement = Genetic Enhancement
4. Power Armor ≠ Scout Armor
5. Therefore, Scout (Astartes) ≠ Space Marine (Astartes)

See how ridiculous that is? I challenge you to get any standard Space Marine model and any standard IG model, put them side by side, and point out the genetic enhancements. Hell, if you get a Jungle Fighter and put it next to a standard Tac Marine, it looks like the Guard are the one with the genetic enhancements. Those arms are huge!

So, given that it is impossible to see genetic enhancements, the difference between a female marine and a sister of battle posing as a female marine must come down to the armor. Well, as shown in the above scout example, this can't be true. Or look at teminators versus tac marines. Both are obviously marines, it is cleared designated in a hundred different places. Or look at techmarines. Their armor is different. Wait, it says marine right in their name. They must be marines then...

So, I have shown that it is not the genetic enhancement, since you can't see it on the model, and it is not the armor, since marines already use a wide mix of armor. The what exactly, is stopping a SoB model from being used as a female Marine? Looks like nothing to me.

Nabterayl

12-03-2009, 03:40 PM

That's a matter of personal taste. Personally I think sisters models would make fine stand-ins for female marines. Do they look like what I would make if I were to make a line of female marine miniatures? No. Would they be good enough for me if I was going to do female marines? Yes (though they aren't necessarily the route I would choose).

Regardless, if sisters models just don't strike Melissia as looking much like marines, that's okay. You can't prove somebody wrong about something like that. Apparently the miniature's stature and the design of its power armor is much more important to Mel than it is to me when deciding whether a miniature looks like a space marine. Nothing wrong with that. It's just the way she processes the visuals.

Old_Paladin

12-03-2009, 03:49 PM

I will use your own argument to disprove SM scouts:
1. Genetic Enhancement + Power Armor = Space Marine (Astartes)
2. Genetic Enhancement + Scout Armor = Scout
3. Genetic Enhancement = Genetic Enhancement
4. Power Armor ≠ Scout Armor
5. Therefore, Scout ≠ Space Marine

You're argument doesn't actually work, because you have an embedded falacy; namely, you use "space marine" in two different way. One, as a general term for all members of a chapter; and the other, as a term for a battle-brother. So, No cheating; you have to keep your terms equal.

If we keep Mel's argument and keep your example fair; then it becomes:
Scout =/= Battle-Brother, which is actually true!

Edit: looked through my old text books. It's called the falacy of Equivocation.

Soundgear

12-03-2009, 03:53 PM

Saying something is "crap" isn't an argument, it is a dismissal. Nowhere did Melissa say "I don't think they fit my visual ideal of a marine." That is an opinion, and one that I can grant won't be changed by my arguments.

I was giving my perfectly logical reasons for my beliefs. I am a big fan of counts as, since a lot of armies actually have to depend on that because models don't exist for the unit in the book. Just look at the latest space marine entries, the Ironclad Dreadnaught and the Landspeeder Storm. It took them a year to get models. Until they came out, EVERYONE had to use a "counts-as" model for them. Even the Sisters have to use "counts-as" models because of lack of models or OOP models.

Soundgear

12-03-2009, 04:01 PM

You're argument doesn't actually work, because you have an embedded falacy; namely, you use "space marine" in two different way. One, as a general term for all members of a chapter; and the other, as a term for a battle-brother. So, No cheating; you have to keep your terms equal.

If we keep Mel's argument and keep your example fair; then it becomes:
Scout =/= Battle-Brother, which is actually true!

I might not have clarified enough which one I meant when typing, I was trying to get everything in quickly. I realize Space Marine is very interchangeable. I was defining the key key distinctions that Melissa has repeated stated, that Astartes are genetically enhanced and wear power armor. So, given this constant (a very limited one as I later showed), I was showing that it creates an impossible logic loop. Scouts are Astarte. Battle Brother are Astarte. They are the same physical.

Also, I mainly play SW, so my Scouts ARE equal to Battle-Brothers, in fact in some cases held in higher regard.

Nabterayl

12-03-2009, 04:11 PM

Let's not get bogged down in beating each other up for the fun of it. I'm pretty certain that what Mel was saying (and Mel, correct me) is that sisters of battle models don't look like marines in power armor. If this is what Mel meant, I'll agree that she could have been clearer about it.

Now, what is a "marine in power armor?" What visual characteristics does something have to be associated with that phrase in a person's mind?

For Melissia (and again, Mel, correct me) it has to be a big human being, or look like a big human being, and it has to be wearing power armor. Bonus points if it looks like Astartes power armor.

For me, it just has to be a human being, or look like a human being, and it has to be wearing power armor. Bonus points if it looks like Astartes power armor. The stature of the miniature is not very important to me (perhaps because as an ork player all humanoid miniatures look the same to me?), so long as my army has a visually unified look (i.e., I wouldn't mix SoB and marine miniatures in my army - I'd either use marine bodies with the occasional female head, or SoB bodies with the occasional male head).

Neither of us are right. We're just focusing on different aspects of the visuals.

Soundgear

12-03-2009, 04:20 PM

I'm not trying to beat up anyone. I have been nothing but civil. I am just trying to get to the reason of why Melissa decided to call my wife's army "crap". Is it the visual aspect (as far as armor)? Is it the stat-line (I previously stated she uses the C:SM)? What part about my wife's desire to play what she wants to play is "crap"?

As far as stature goes, most of my Wolves are old 2nd ed. models, and they are a bit smaller. When they face off against my wife's army, the size difference (height) isn't really that noticeable between a 2nd ed model and a SoB model.

Old_Paladin

12-03-2009, 04:38 PM

Not to get this onto a "How do you feel about 'counts as' armies" thread (several of which already exist.

I'm fully behind a lot of what Mel feels about sister not equaling marines.
The fluff is totally different. Her view of saying they are not the same from a story aspect is undefeatable. They even have a unique form of power armour. It doesn't make them stronger, or faster; it doesn't relay the same information to the hud. It is lighter weight. The reason is that sisters have no Black Carapace. They have no 'plug ins' for the armour to enhance them.

Now, from the model aspect;
My worry is the lazy player. The person that just goes out, buys a sisters army for the look, thinks they have a crappy codex and wants more power stuffed into it.
The same person that'll say "These sisters are tact marines, those Sarapham are assault marines, the exorcists are whirlwinds, the stormtroopers are scouts, my immolator with bolters is a razorback, this sister is a captain (and sometimes Vulkan), etc." With no conversion work at all to make it actually believeable.
At that point, they have like 4 armies.
1) Vanilla marines
2) Salamanders (to get the Vulkan goodness).
3) Blood angels (it's a free codex, so why not)
4) Sisters of Battle.

It just doesn't work, the feel is just wrong; the iconography, the mood. It just doesn't still well. No better then if I saw an ultramarine army and was told, "They're sisters; but I don't like metal models. And felt like fielding more troops in power armour, so it feels more like a battle company."

I can see grand things being done to make a female marines chapter (that's well done and believeable); but I also worry about the cop-out. I think that using sisters as a basis will lead to the cop-out; that modifying normal space marines would lead to better feel (and scale).

Nabterayl

12-03-2009, 04:43 PM

I'm not trying to beat up anyone. I have been nothing but civil. I am just trying to get to the reason of why Melissa decided to call my wife's army "crap". Is it the visual aspect (as far as armor)? Is it the stat-line (I previously stated she uses the C:SM)? What part about my wife's desire to play what she wants to play is "crap"?

Whoa, dude, back up. Who called your wife's army crap? I just went through the last eight pages of this thread twice and I can't find it. What Mel called crap (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=39151&postcount=221) was the proposition that Sororitas models look like female space marines. She then clarified (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=39157&postcount=223) that they don't look like female space marines to her.

Soundgear

12-03-2009, 04:47 PM

No, they won't. Sororitas models do not look like Astartes models any more than Eldar models do, or Meganobz do, or Tau Battlesuits, and os on and so forth. When you remove the label "Tau Battlesuit", why shouldn't someone be allowed to make an army of battlesuits and say they're astartes? Why not use meganobz to represent terminators? Why not use eldar to represent tacticals and scouts?

No, I'm not buying that crap. You can use whatever models you want and say they "count as", but that's all it is. Sisters of Battle models are no more representative of female Space Marines than any of the above.

Quoted. It was one page back, top of the page.

Nabterayl

12-03-2009, 04:57 PM

Yeah, I cited it too. As well as the clarification.

Nobody's calling your wife's army crap, or saying that she can't play whatever she feels like. I'm pretty sure nobody's even saying that they wouldn't play your wife's army.

Soundgear

12-03-2009, 05:05 PM

There are models that will proxy for "female marines". The SoB models will do that.

Since I was quoted out of context, please view my whole statement about my wife's "Bloody Valentines*" SoB counts as SM army. I never said the the SoB models were the definitive, end all be all of female space marines. I said they will proxy! Proxy is short for approximate.

As far as "counts as" armies, every marine army could be a "counts as" army. Let's run down the list of the armies that base coated gray marines could be:

Blood Angel Successor
Space Wolves
Black Templar Successor
Dark Angel Successor
Vanilla Marines (including all the special character "your army is different now" stuff)
Renegade/Chaos

That is 6 distinct armies from one group of minis. That is not counting all the derivations of Vulkan/Khan/etcs.

*My wife is in love with Jensen Ackels. Don't ask.

Melissia

12-03-2009, 05:47 PM

the same basic genetics as humans and marines.
... whom are so wildly different as to be two completely different species. Marines are not humans; if you cannot use an Eldar or Ork or Tau to represent a Marine, then I don't see why you could use a human either. Also, don't try and distinguish or remove the lore from the game, the models, the hobby and then attempt to argue based off of it, you will not only fail, but you will make yourself look inconsistent in the process.

I never called your wife's army crap any more than I called any counts-as army crap. I stated "I'm not buying that crap" referring to people claiming that Sisters were female astartes models. They aren't. No matter how many times people say they are, they aren't, any more than Orks are assaulty Guard, or Tau are shooty eldar, or Necrons are metallic Tyranids. If you want to use Sisters models as Astartes, go ahead, but then you should also allow people to proxy Gaurdsmen with Boyz, too.

Old_Paladin

12-03-2009, 05:52 PM

I will use [Mel's] own argument to disprove SM scouts:
1. Genetic Enhancement + Power Armor = Space Marine (Astartes)
2. Genetic Enhancement + Scout Armor = Scout (Astartes)
3. Genetic Enhancement = Genetic Enhancement
4. Power Armor ≠ Scout Armor
5. Therefore, Scout (Astartes) ≠ Space Marine (Astartes)
See how ridiculous that is?

I still think you didn't understand my earlier point.
I'll use black templars as an example (as they are equal to normal marines; but use clearer terminology).

1. Genetic Enhancement + Power Armor = Initiate
2. Genetic Enhancement + Scout Armor = Neophite
3. Genetic Enhancement = Genetic Enhancement
4. Power Armor ≠ Scout Armor
5. Therefore, Neophite ≠ Initiate
And your conclusion is that that is non-sense! Meaning you think that a neophite and initiate ARE the same.

There is an old saying "All World Eaters are berzerkers; but not all Berzerkers are World Eaters."
Likewise, All Battle-Brothers are Space Marines, not not all Space Marines are battle-brothers.

Soundgear

12-03-2009, 06:48 PM

Old_P - Again, I apologize for not being clear. I was trying to demonstrate what makes a space marine a space marine, so I could determine why the "counts as" army is looked down upon.

Mel - 1. All marines start has human. Eldar never start their existence as human.
2. As I previously stated, I wouldn't care if someone fielded an entire Eldar or Battlesuit army as marines. There are many reasons to do this (testing a new army with an old one, borrowing an army to see if you like the game, think the models are cooler, etc). They paid their money, theoretically, I have no right to tell them what they can do with them.
3. I didn't say that SoB models were Astartes. I clearly said they could proxy as female Astartes.
4. If you call all "counts as" armies crap, you are calling my army crap.
5. Lore is mutable. Which lore are we talking about? Rule books only? Codex? Novels? White Dwarf? According to White Dwarf, Calgar of the Ultras was a guardsmen! According to which codex you read, he was made Chapter Master before he was born. The Lore changes by the rule of cool. If female marines become cool, the lore changes. It is separate from the game. Game is made, lore tries to justify things. New models are introduced, lore changes.

Nabterayl

12-03-2009, 06:58 PM

So ... can I try to translate for Mel here? I don't mean to speak for her, but it really feels to me like Soundgear just isn't understanding her. Mel, correct me if I'm wrong, but all you are saying are the following:
Full-fledged space marines are not the same species as non space-marine humans. In the alternative (if we want to quibble about the boundaries of "species"), since space marines are most accurately classified as abhuman, they are approximately as human as is an ogryn or a ratling.
Sisters of battle miniatures were not intended as, and are not, female space marine models - even if their miniature line was started in order to capitalize on a perceived desire in the market for power-armored women, and even if some people view them as good proxies for female space marines or good conversion bases for female space marine models.
You, Melissia, do not see any more visual similarity between a sister of battle and a space marine than you do between an XV8 and a space marine.
That's it, right? I mean, does anybody actually disagree with those statements?

Soundgear

12-03-2009, 07:24 PM

1. I never said marines are human. They were, before the process though. Eldar, Tau and Orks (as a species), never were. I was saying that the visual differences between Marines and other humans, in the models, is indistinguishable.
2. I never said SoB models WERE female space marines, just that they are a female in power armor that make a good proxy for female space marines, same as goblin wolves make a good proxy for thunderwolves.
3. There are currently no official representations of a female space marine. If Melissa feels that SoB models don't look like female marines to her, that is fine. That is an opinion. I think they do. That is also fine. Opinions can be different. All I was looking for was the reasoning why? What makes SoB models so different from an imaginary female space marine?

Nabterayl

12-03-2009, 07:30 PM

I know you didn't say those things. Evidently to Mel they're important than they are to you when it comes to choosing which models one would use to proxy or convert female space marines. All I'm trying to point out is that there is no actual disagreement between the two of you as to anything other than whether or not sisters models make "good" proxies or conversion bases (whatever "good" means in this context).

The main visual differences between sisters models and hypothetical female marine models, I think, are:

Stature (if you're of the opinion that female space marines would be the size of a male space marine - I don't actually see any reason why they would have to be), Ecclesiarchical iconography, and mark of power armor (if you're of the opinion that female space marines would use the same marks of power armor as do male space marines).

As to how important you think those differences are, as we've all said by now, that's a matter of personal opinion.

Melissia

12-03-2009, 08:26 PM

Yes, I do believe that female Astartes would use essentially the same kind of power armor as male Astartes. There's no reason that female Astartes would use Sororitas power armor-- it is not made for Astartes, it is made for humans. Furthermore, I don't see why they'd be forced to use such a drastically different style of armor. Yes, to me, the Sororitas armor looks quite different when compared to an Astartes power armor.

Melissia

12-03-2009, 08:34 PM

To emphasize the difference:

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/th_SistersArmor.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/SistersArmor.jpg)http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/th_MarinesArmor.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/MarinesArmor.jpg)

Click on the thumbs for bigger pictures. The stylistic differences are quite dramatic.

Nabterayl

12-03-2009, 08:56 PM

The visual differences for me depend heavily on the background of the hypothetical female space marines. The only fluff reason I can think of that Astartes armor looks the way (I'm speaking of all the various marks here) that it does is because that's the way Astartes armor has always looked. It's not like black carapace-enabled armor has to look like bell bottoms and enormous pauldrons rather than boots and enormous spaulders, for instance, you know? Similarly, it's not like the superhuman abilities space marines have engineered into them have to make the host huge (well, ok, the ossmodula does make the host huge - but you could lack the ossmodula and still be a space marine, just like you could lack Betcher's gland and still be a space marine). So for me, how much a "female space marine" ought to look depends heavily on the fluff behind any particular iteration of "female space marine."

For instance, a marine chapter whose geneseed has mutated to accept female hosts I would expect to go on using the same power armor it has always used.

A new organization of superhuman warriors with psychosurgical alterations equivalent to those undergone by Astartes and physically altered to have a secondary heart, fused, ceramized bones, superhuman muscle mass, improved oxygenation, near-instant scarring/scabbing, the ability to switch off different parts of his brain, decontaminate poisonous food and isolate indigestible foods, experience the memories of consumed creatures, have a third lung that can process poisonous gases and extract oxygen from low-oxygen environments, have superhuman night vision, be immune to dizziness and motion sickness, consciously filter out and enhance certain sounds, enter a state of suspended animation, have self-darkening skin, have the ability to rapidly filter almost his entire blood supply of toxins, be able to identify many common chemicals by taste alone, sweat a mucus that is heat-, cold-, and vacuum-resistant, spit a corrosive contact poison, and interface directly with power armor, which included females among its ranks, would probably qualify in my book as a "female space marine" - but I wouldn't necessarily expect such an organization to produce physically huge warriors (there are plenty of advantages to having normal-sized superhuman warriors, which arguably balance out the disadvantages of not being huge), or to use the austere bell bottoms-and-pauldrons style of power armor.

And so on.