Female Space Marines

[Melissia]

Bad example. Daemon Princes are not Astartes, therefor they cannot be an example of Astartes. Calgar, however, is an Astartes, and always was. You can probably argue that his equipment is too buffed up to get a good idea on how the typical Astartes' armor might look, but your argument fails as it is right now :P

[Rapture]

Bad example. Daemon Princes are not Astartes, therefor they cannot be an example of Astartes. Calgar, however, is an Astartes, and always was. You can probably argue that his equipment is too buffed up to get a good idea on how the typical Astartes' armor might look, but your argument fails as it is right now :P

If Calgar is an Astartes then I can't see how a Demon Prince isn't an Astartes. Both started out then same and were then highly modified and improved. Is a robot more Astartes than a Demon?

[Melissia]

If Calgar is an Astartes then I can't see how a Demon Prince isn't an Astartes. Both started out then same and were then highly modified and improved. Is a robot more Astartes than a Demon?
Cybernetic enhancements and replacements are common amongst Marines. Daemonhood is most assuredly not, and becoming a daemon inherently involves losing everything they were before daemonhood and becoming something so utterly otherworldly that they find it difficult to exist in the material plane.

[Old_Paladin]

A Daemon Prince is also a bad example because they aren't all fallen Marines; a good number are, but not all.
Anyone that carries out the goals of the dark gods, and offers enough souls can be granted Princedom.
Some will be traitor guard, a powerful rouge psyker, some are truely old, created before the Astartes program was even started (Jack the ripper, Attila the hun; all had the potential to be raised to Daemon-hood).
Some Princes will actually come from warhammer fantasy (as the Northern Gate allows them to entire the Realm of Chaos and cross time, space and dimentions).

[Gotthammer]

One way to look at it is thus:

Take a marine army (any chapter) - you can fit Corbulo or Njal in with a little bit of work. All it would take is, say, a bit of application of Blood Angels iconography or bits from the Wolf sprues to bring that theme into the whole army regardless of any ties to the two chapters (blood drops/wings and wolve's heads aren't that unique). A unifying colour and theme can easily be added to make Corbulo or Njal part of most marine armies. Also they are character models so are designed to stand out from the crowd and be an exagerration of the army's themes.

Take a marine army, decide to make a quater or so of your marines female. No matter how the unified paint job and added bits to the normal marine kits Sororitas are going to stick out as they are in power armour, but it is a style completely different to a Space Marine's (different shoulder guards, different torso, different helmet, different greaves, gloves instead of gauntlets, different backpack etc). They can be used as a Chapter on their own, but not integrated with the marine line easily enough to say they are female marines in that sense.

[Nabterayl]

They can be used as a Chapter on their own, but not integrated with the marine line easily enough to say they are female marines in that sense.

That is basically what I was trying to say.

[Soundgear]

And my wife's SoB as Space Marine army is exactly that. Every model is a Sister model, except for tanks. She doesn't use any bike or speeders, so it is easy enough to do. The only "standout" models from the army are her termies, but termies are a bit of a standout from a "regular" marine army anyways, since the armor is so different (larger, no backpack, huge powerfist, smooth shoulder pads, different helmets). Do SoB models mix well with SM models? Not really. But if you use all SoB models, and have a unified paint job, they make a decent proxy.

So, my advice, for anyone who cares at this point: If you want a female SM army, you have to go all out. You can't really mix female with male, since the differences become far too obvious. But if you want to invest $900 to make a troop based SM army from SoB models, go right ahead. Try to avoid units that take a lot of conversion to make work (like bikes and speeders), stick to troops and tanks.

And as a side not, if anyone out there gets a wild hair and decides to carve up some SoB and make them into Speeder pilots, let me know! I may have some conversion work for you!

[Old_Paladin]

@ Soundgear,
That was part of my concern before; she's playing a sisters army, but with a better rulebook.
At least if there was bikers or speeders, it would standout; it would at least make you ask questions or realize it's a different army.
How are you going to know it isn't a Sister's army until she plops down a rulebook?

I totally understand Mel's point about seeing a very small ork army (all mobz of 10 boyz with mixed shootaz and slugga/choppaz); then the person pulls out Codex: Black Templars.

Now, maybe I'm wrong; I haven't seen your wife's army list or pictures of her force; maybe it does stands out.
But your "advice" is actually to do little to no conversion work! That makes me feel wrong inside. The point should be that Female marines CANNOT be done, unless conversion work is required. Otherwise, suck up your pride, and play the potentially underpowered army that matches the look you want (ie. just play Sisters of Battle).

[Soundgear]

It has nothing to do with pride. It is based off two things: 1. Space Marines are a very easy army to play. My wife has been playing for about a year, and she likes easy. Sisters can be difficult to play for a beginner. 2. She wanted to play females, and has a distain for the "girly" qualties of Eldar. She wanted to play "tough as nails" girls, and she likes the models for the Sisters. Again, the Witch Hunters book is old, difficult to understand, and somewhat limited in options. I suggested the proxy for Marines.

It is hard to tell that it is NOT a regular army when it first hits the table. She runs two Preds, a Vin, and a LR for the termies. Everything else is in red Rhinos. It is not until they disembark that they look different from standard marines.

[Rapture]

@ Soundgear,
That was part of my concern before; she's playing a sisters army, but with a better rulebook.
At least if there was bikers or speeders, it would standout; it would at least make you ask questions or realize it's a different army.
How are you going to know it isn't a Sister's army until she plops down a rulebook?

I totally understand Mel's point about seeing a very small ork army (all mobz of 10 boyz with mixed shootaz and slugga/choppaz); then the person pulls out Codex: Black Templars.

Now, maybe I'm wrong; I haven't seen your wife's army list or pictures of her force; maybe it does stands out.
But your "advice" is actually to do little to no conversion work! That makes me feel wrong inside. The point should be that Female marines CANNOT be done, unless conversion work is required. Otherwise, suck up your pride, and play the potentially underpowered army that matches the look you want (ie. just play Sisters of Battle).

I don't see how someone using official GW models under a different codex is a problem. What the person is really using is just the rules and stats from the codex. I think you are being a little silly if you think anyone who used sisters models with marine rules would wait until after the game started to tell you that they were planning on using a different codex.

Why should anyone use a codex that they don't enjoy? What is wrong with them applying different, legal, stats and rules to their models if that is what allows them to have a good time and doesn't effect you?

[Gotthammer]

So, my advice, for anyone who cares at this point: If you want a female SM army, you have to go all out. You can't really mix female with male, since the differences become far too obvious. But if you want to invest $900 to make a troop based SM army from SoB models, go right ahead. Try to avoid units that take a lot of conversion to make work (like bikes and speeders), stick to troops and tanks.

I do use a mixed gender marine army, and use standard marine armour for all. You can find pics on my blog (link in my sig) if you wish to have a look. There is no visual difference because when they gear up in the bulk of marine armour you can't tell a thing about the person inside.

[Soundgear]

I do use a mixed gender marine army, and use standard marine armour for all. You can find pics on my blog (link in my sig) if you wish to have a look. There is no visual difference because when they gear up in the bulk of marine armour you can't tell a thing about the person inside.

I meant when you are using to different power armors on the models. If you have good female heads to use (and don't cost you a $10 model to behead), go with regular power armor. If I am having to buy a $10 model anyways, why not use that model?

[Gotthammer]

Ah, I read it to mean you meant all SoBs or all regular dudes in the army, without having female marines in standard armour as an option. My mistake there :)

[Soundgear]

Not a problem! I really wish I had some pictures of her army (or mine for that matter!). When it is all laid out it is pretty cohesive. 4 Squads of SoB models as Tac Marines, an Female Inquisitor for the Captain, everything else tank.

[Old_Paladin]

I know my view on proxy isn't the most popular; but I'm still pretty open minded.
My problem only comes up when there is a good chance I could look across a table and either: 1. Have no clue about the army I am fighting, or 2. I easily think it's one army (and actually have zero reason to second guess myself), but it's actually another; because there is no difference between the army I see and its standard codex rules.

I think proxy/converted armies are great (there's a lot of great Blood Pact out there, treadheads can let their imagination run wild); but if a reasonable person has no way to easily tell what the other army is; that person might have well just brough 28mm heroic scale chess pieces (and I have seen ones sized that would work for TLoS, as well as a marine) and tissue boxes.

I don't think its a silly idea that models tend to represent the army their were made for. You need a trend of consistancy for the game to work.
Otherwise, we can just do as Mel suggested; and any army can use any rules with little to no conversion.
Orks use eldar rules, Tau use Ork rules, Space Marines are just tall guard and Guard are just un-spikey dark eldar.

At least it's good to hear that Soundgears Wife took a lot of armour; preds and vindies that sisters don't have. And hopefully used normal marine rhinos and razorbacks (with no Fluer de Lyes); instead of the sister conversion kit and immolator.

[Soundgear]

Yup, they are all new Rhinos. They only shop around the actually HAD Sisters rhinos only had the old style, which we both hate.

This is the way I view proxies: do they easily represent what you want them to represent? Can you tell the different units apart? If so, then great! You usually have to tell your opponent what your different units are anyway, so what is the problem? (See this black termie Chaos Lord here? He has a Khorne Mark. Sorry there is not a prebuilt bit for Chaos Marks on characters that aren't nine feet tall and break off every game...)

Since there aren't any female marines, we both feel that SoB models, as obvious females in power army, represent this easily, given that every other vehicle is a standard SM vehicle. In fact, at first glance, most people assume it is a BA army, since it is mainly bright red tanks. But since she only runs Tac Marines (with the appropriate heavy weapon modeled on where applicable), it is really easy to figure out which model is which.

We aren't heavy competitive gamers. We are very casual. We really only play in small store tournies when we do compete. Most people know our armies, or are very polite in asking which unit is which. We always offer full disclosure, and aren't playing to win, but playing for fun and expanding the silly little stories of our person armies.

[Lerra]

I'd love to see that army :) It sounds like an easy (if extremely expensive) way to do female space marines.

Using Sisters as SM is WYSIWYG, basically. The basic sister and the basic Space Marine are both wearing power armor and wielding a bolter. As soon as she says "This army uses Codex: Space Marines" you should know exactly what you're fighting.

A group of power-armor models with flamer and missile launcher = tactical squad

A group of power-armor models with lascannons = devastator team

A group of power-armor models with jumppacks = assault team

It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to figure out.

[Soundgear]

That's exactly how I see it. Most people have no issue with it whatsoever. But it was fairly expense to build out the squads, compared to plastic SMs.

Does anyone know where to get decent female heads (with some kind of variety)? I would love to make a small guard force with a mix of females, and I am not near as picky about gluing a female head to a male body as my wife is. Moving this back on topic, I would love to purchase female heads from GW, maybe even entire kits. That way, I could make entire female armies and still make people like Mel and Old-P happy with my tiny conversion as opposed to a full proxy. Are you listening GW? I am sure there are at least as many of us as there are DE players! :p

[Javin]

hey now, lets not insult all five of them.

[Lerra]

I would bet there are more female 40kers than DE players. That's actually kind of sad from both directions.

The female elf heads from GW are easy to find on ebay and look good. You just have to file off the pointedness of the ears and then they fit right in.

[Mystery.Shadow]

Not sure about the rest of the world, but at the Baltimore Games Day 2008 (When they actually had Open Gaming!) there were MANY Dark Eldar Players!

And....

My Girlfriend also plays Dark Eldar!

[Subject Keyword]

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I feel that something is in dire need of pointing out here. There exists, already, a flawlessly equal opportunity army.

Necrons.

A whole RACE of people turned in to metal monsters.
About getting females into the hobby, half of the players I know are women (granted, they all seem play Nids for some reason).
Oh, and as long as no one is reading this, Melissa won the SoB argument like eight times.

[The.Justinian]

There is no debate. Women can't be Space Marines. No way around it unless you bend the fluff, and if you bend the fluff you are wrong. (I don't necessarily attack this statement as much as start my riffing from here)

There are a great many pages of this thread, but I've got to throw down here, while the blood is still a bit hot in me. Perhaps I've missed a post where someone enumerated what I'm about to say and I missed it...In which case I agree wholeheartedly, and echo that idea.

One of the great inspirational bits about the Astartes is that they take that sliver of ourselves that would like to sacrifice, in the name of common humanity, to leave behind ourselves, and become something else in the name of what we aspire to be. In short., an angel. Of course, the fascist juggernaut of the Imperium they serve, and the flaws of the Astartes as an institution, are what makes Marines so interesting.

But they are not men. The genetic transformation/torture/crosscarry that they undergo ends any idea of human sex(type), and in their training they leave behind any gender (identity) as well. Marines are sterile, so they're not men (our concept of sex+gender has a word, men). Likewise,

There is no such thing as a male or female Astartes; a reading of the way that they're depicted as a wholly separate gender in most of the Heresy novels will confirm this. They cease to be human and become the 40k world's version of angels. Hell, the whole story of Horus is constructed as allegory to Lucifer, in case y'all haven't noticed.

So conceptually, I see no harm done at all in having a second founding chapter that recruits women (and if it requires AM manipulations or Imperial MiracleIntervention ,so be it); or a first founding chapter that has always recruited women, then that's fine. Anatomically, genetalia and secondary sex characeristics are going to go the way of the scrota on a man that uses too much steroids, but their deeper selves and their personal stories remain, and I for one would like to model a chaplain or apothecary with the air of a former woman.

Every Marine is already transgendered. and just so happens to use the pronoun 'he' so that the untransformed won't get quite so confused. The charm of the Guard, and the Sororitas, is in the fact they lack any ImperioDivine spark, and yet are brought to insane levels of heroism to preserve humanity in the face of a grim, dark, devilish universe.

So...female astartes? well, if by that we mean long hair or a face that shows some relics of femininity from before a transformation that makes a sex change look like a haircut, certainly.

Female (looking) models in greater abundance? Even better. I've seen and met a great number of women playing 40k from my generation, the attractive kind I might want to get into bed with--Geekiness is a bug that now crosses genders more aptly than ever before, largely thanks to the work of the Japanese. But when we use terms like 'breeder' or cling (too tightly; convenience is good) to a gender designation for Marines that's arbitrary since Pedro Kantor's parts don't work, nor are relevant to his lifestyle any longer)--

We merely work to reinforce that in our hobby that drives women away.
That said, I like a good debate, and a good reason to throw down on where gender is going in our society and in folk art/folkways (the game called 40k).

Roll Dice and A Happy New year,
J.

[Lerra]

A good point. In my eyes, gender goes much further than simple chromosomes or genitalia, though. Guys, if something tragic happened and you lost your genitalia, would you still consider yourself to be a man? Psychologically, GW's Space Marines are 110% male regardless of what they have in their pants. They grow beards, have deep voices, refer to each other with male pronouns and gendered terms like "brother." By the fluff, Space Marines certainly don't *need* to have these characteristics - it doesn't really matter if your super soldiers can grow a beard - but a lot of space marines players seem to like the hyper-masculinity.

I agree that it would be very interesting to see androgynous or female-characteristic space marines, though. At a core level, SMs are essentially genderless, so it would make sense that it's possible.

[Melissia]

The charm of the Guard, and the Sororitas, is in the fact they lack any ImperioDivine spark,I actually object to this wording-- the Sisters arguably actually have more "ImperioDivine spark" than the astartes, because their Acts of Faith show that they are definitely blessed by the Emperor. That all depends on what you mean by "ImperioDivine spark" I suppose.

[Subject Keyword]

You know, it's pretty telling that so many people in this long thread got upset about the idea of female marines.
If I said that I wanted to start a partially organic, cyborg Necron army with fleshy bits and stuff, people would be like "great idea!" and give me greenstuffing tips, even though it goes against their fluff like a cheese grater goes against human skin.

People really like to cling on to the idea that women just aren't capable of fighting the same way that men are. If you've ever been involved in any martial arts you know how finger-breakingly, shin-splinteringly inaccurate that is.:rolleyes:

[Renegade]

I actually object to this wording-- the Sisters arguably actually have more "ImperioDivine spark" than the astartes, because their Acts of Faith show that they are definitely blessed by the Emperor. That all depends on what you mean by "ImperioDivine spark" I suppose.

Which are beaten by BT Vows all the way to the golden throne. Vows "always" work, Acts of Faith have a chance of not working.

Marines win.

I agree with M2C and others. A female cannot be a marine, it would take so much hormone treatment and genetic enhancement, you would end up with what would be an effeminate male rather than anything that would resemble a female without scientific testing. Even then they are unlikely to pass the Gene testing and other tests.

[Sangre]

Which are beaten by BT Vows all the way to the golden throne. Vows "always" work, Acts of Faith have a chance of not working.

Marines win.

At this point, anyone who's even heard of Melissia battens down the hatches. There's a storm coming. There's a storm coming to your town.

[Aldramelech]

Im off......

[Melissia]

Marines fail.Indeed they do. Even if you include Templars, the vows aren't really representative of miracles performed by the Emperor, so they don't count. And they're just one chapter. So yeah, maybe if you cut the bull and stop trolling for a moment, you might even contribute something to the thread, and it might even be worth reading!

[Herald of Nurgle]

At this point, anyone who's even heard of Melissia battens down the hatches. There's a storm coming. There's a storm coming to your town.
As usual, the English people are right.

[Renegade]

Indeed they do win. Even if you include Templars, the vows are really representative of miracles performed by the Emperor, so they do count. And they're just one chapter. So yeah, maybe if you cut the fact finding and stop me trolling for a moment, I might even contribute something to the thread, and it might even be worth reading!

And indeed I hope you do.

BT vows are in fact, the imparted power of the Emperors will, and Marines are the closest any mortal can come to the greatness that is the Emperor. Through the planting of the gene-seed, taken from a Primarch who are the sons of the Emperor, and therefore none other can claim to be as close in all ways to the divine.

Please read the rest of my post for my thought on female marines, with the effort a female would have to make to get close to being as combat effective, or to make them as compatible with the gene seed, the cost it would make to for it to have been far easier to have used a male all along, and that female would be hardly recognisable as female.

(I can alter text to :p)

[Denzark]

(I don't necessarily attack this statement as much as start my riffing from here)



But they are not men. The genetic transformation/torture/crosscarry that they undergo ends any idea of human sex(type), and in their training they leave behind any gender (identity) as well. Marines are sterile, so they're not men (our concept of sex+gender has a word, men). Likewise,

There is no such thing as a male or female Astartes; a reading of the way that they're depicted as a wholly separate gender in most of the Heresy novels will confirm this. They cease to be human and become the 40k world's version of angels. Hell, the whole story of Horus is constructed as allegory to Lucifer, in case y'all haven't noticed.



Hang on a second. Males are surely genetically determined as such by XY chromosomes as opposed to XX. How does a course of organ implant, drugs, hypnotherapy etc etc change this. Being sterile does not mean you are no longer a man as sterility or fertility does not define a man. Likewise, I have never seen anything in any fluff direct, implied or otherwise saying THEY LEAVE BEHIND ANY GENDER (IDENTITY) . Horus might be Lucifer but don't think just becuase various Hollywood shows angels as having no genitalia means they are sexless so Marines being 40Ks Angels either literally or metaphorically doesn't mean they are likewise sexless.

If anyone could argue convincingly the Space Wolves are anything other than males I would be impressed.

And anyway, I must now quote the 1989 Warhammer 40000 Compendium, Page 9, from the Chapter Approved Article Entitled 'The Origins of the Legiones Astartes':

"They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening."

Nowhere does it mention they lose this maleness as a result of the process. Hence a fluff quote saying you can't have female marines.

[Magos]

I have to go with the above quote as the perfect reason why their are no female space marines, nore should their ever be female space marines. I mean, for people who really like the idea of women in power armor, battle sisters are perfectly fine, or female inquisitors. Whichever.

[Renegade]

Hang on a second. Males are surely genetically determined as such by XY chromosomes as opposed to XX. How does a course of organ implant, drugs, hypnotherapy etc etc change this. Being sterile does not mean you are no longer a man as sterility or fertility does not define a man. Likewise, I have never seen anything in any fluff direct, implied or otherwise saying THEY LEAVE BEHIND ANY GENDER (IDENTITY) . Horus might be Lucifer but don't think just becuase various Hollywood shows angels as having no genitalia means they are sexless so Marines being 40Ks Angels either literally or metaphorically doesn't mean they are likewise sexless.

If anyone could argue convincingly the Space Wolves are anything other than males I would be impressed.

And anyway, I must now quote the 1989 Warhammer 40000 Compendium, Page 9, from the Chapter Approved Article Entitled 'The Origins of the Legiones Astartes':

"They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening."

Nowhere does it mention they lose this maleness as a result of the process. Hence a fluff quote saying you can't have female marines.

Where can one get hold of that compendium? I had read that claim some time in the past, but didnt quote it as I couldnt find it.

[Denzark]

Where can one get hold of that compendium? I had read that claim some time in the past, but didnt quote it as I couldnt find it.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GAMES-WORKSHOP-WARHAMMER-40-000-Compendium-1989-OPP_W0QQitemZ400092166282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Toy s_Wargames_RL?hash=item5d2759f88a

[Renegade]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GAMES-WORKSHOP-WARHAMMER-40-000-Compendium-1989-OPP_W0QQitemZ400092166282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Toy s_Wargames_RL?hash=item5d2759f88a

Argh! It has UM on it! Still, maybe.

[Melissia]

BT vows are in fact, the imparted power of the Emperors willThey're just vows, not miracles created by the Emperor Himself.


and Marines are the closest any mortal can come to the greatness that is the Emperor.
No, also no. Marines are mutants stuffed with tons of genetic modifications, drugs, chemicals, and other crap until they're no longer human. While I would argue that the Sisters are the closest to the Emperor spiritually, the only group that can argue that they are truly similar to the Emperor isn't the Sisters nor the Marines, but the Adeptus Astra Telepathica-- sanctioned psykers. Not librarians, sanctionites, whom have gone to Terra and had their souls shattered and reformed to be a weapon of the Emperor's will. They might wield only a fragment of the Emperor's power, but they still wield it.


Please read the rest of my post for my thought on female marines

Which have already been refuted as far as I'm concerned.



1989
If that's still fluff, then the Sisters of Battle are still in control of and regulating the Marines, too, like they were in Rogue Trader. That's two decades ago, back when the fluff was in its infancy...

[Dark_Templar]

Honestly, considering how GW are willing to change fluff on a whim, I will not stand by anything written 20 years ago.

I believe female marines should be possible, and do not feel there is any reason to stop people from hoping otherwise. We do not know if one of the lost Primarchs was female. Perhaps the two lost Primarchs were banished for bonking in the Emperor's sleeping chambers, who knows, my point is that I see no valid reason for arguing against it when female marines could add a lot to the variety of the army, if only the fanboys would pull their heads out.

[Lerra]

Well said :)
If you don't like female space marines, then don't use female space marines in your army. I don't understand why guys get their panties in a twist when someone else wants to use female marines. GW left holes in the fluff intentionally so that people could create armies like the mixed gender or female space marine chapter.

[Denzark]

I know there was another thread on canon. But for me, fluff/canon is like military orders - which remain in force, once given, unless they included a time limit, or are replaced by a new order.

I therefore fail to see how the age of fluff is of any relevance. Who wrote this article? A gentleman called Rick Priestly - you may have heard of him.

GW fluff does not represent society or politically correct modern ideas. There is no need for equal representation and if everyone is equal it doesn't matter if anyone grouping is made up of 100% of one demographic.

Your personal fluff may have females being implanted with 19 implants including a black carapace. They may wear power armour. Their game profiles may be identical to Space Marines. You may even call them 'female space marines'. But they won't be TRUE space marines because the fluff written by the man who was the principle author of 40K says they are all male. End of.

Is it a cool thing to do? Well personally think it is pretty pointless because space marines are male, and there is an all female force, as Melly will remind us. I think powered armoured males using sister's profiles, faith points exactly is a waste of time. It would be as silly as wanting a khorne force with psykers.

I think there is a cultural thing here - if you are used to Hollywood forcing re-written revisionist history down your throats (U-571 or Pearl Harbour) then you may accept such a story.

An all-female chapter would be no more (or less) valid to me than a chapter of all blind marines, or all Down's Syndrome marines - interesting idea but not in accordance with fluff.

[Gotthammer]

Mixed gender?

Also GW say they want people to change their background freely anyway.

[Renegade]

They're just vows, not miracles created by the Emperor Himself.


No, also no. Marines are mutants stuffed with tons of genetic modifications, drugs, chemicals, and other crap until they're no longer human. While I would argue that the Sisters are the closest to the Emperor spiritually, the only group that can argue that they are truly similar to the Emperor isn't the Sisters nor the Marines, but the Adeptus Astra Telepathica-- sanctioned psykers. Not librarians, sanctionites, whom have gone to Terra and had their souls shattered and reformed to be a weapon of the Emperor's will. They might wield only a fragment of the Emperor's power, but they still wield it.



I suggest you take another read through the C:BT, as the vows are more like prayers other up than like "vows of the moment" or whatever. And those genetic modifications are made with whos genetics?

Unless there is anything that contradicts that compendium, I would say its fluff is current for that part quoted.

[Gotthammer]

Space Wolf codex contradicts it.

[Renegade]

Space Wolf codex contradicts it.

Page number and quote?

[Gotthammer]

Page 8: "these organs were designed so that they could be implanted into the body of an ordinary adolescant human."
That reads any human, not just a male of the species - and is talking about marines in general, not just Wolves. They've changed it to be gender neutral, moving on from the WD/IA article.

[Renegade]

Page 8: "these organs were designed so that they could be implanted into the body of an ordinary adolescant human."
That reads any human, not just a male of the species - and is talking about marines in general, not just Wolves. They've changed it to be gender neutral, moving on from the WD/IA article.

Thats not a contradiction, unless chosen to be read that way.:p

Its probably a response to those that want some leeway in building FSM, is rather ambiguous. I still would give a fanflic with them the thumbs down for unfluffiness.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Thats not a contradiction, unless chosen to be read that way.:p

Its probably a response to those that want some leeway in building FSM, is rather ambiguous. I still would give a fanflic with them the thumbs down for unfluffiness.

Female Space Marine proponents are like Evangelicals and Militant Atheists, nothing you say will ever make them stop, so its best to just ignore them.

Games Workshop tells its players to do whatever they want so they will buy more kits to make the female space marines. The end. Those players are not uinque or special and they certainly are not creative. I have yet to see a single marine army that accuratly represents female is Astartes pattern power armor. They like to think they see the 'true' 40K, but in reality its just another anti-authority, passive agressive 'F*** You' to an established set of rules and guidelines.


Page 8: "these organs were designed so that they could be implanted into the body of an ordinary adolescant human."
That reads any human, not just a male of the species - and is talking about marines in general, not just Wolves. They've changed it to be gender neutral, moving on from the WD/IA article.'

You have to realize how ridiculous your argument is. It is so absurd I can hardly give it ANY credit. They didn't change it to be gender neutral, and you're wrong for thinking that.

[Denzark]

Marshal if I was to say you were a funny guy, would you say 'funny how - funny like a f*cking clown?"

Haha I think you win you were far more succinct than me.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Yeah, more than likely.

[Sangre]

Arguing against Melissia has always been and will always be like playing tennis with a wall. It's just not fun anymore.

[Denzark]

Arguing against Melissia has always been and will always be like playing tennis with a wall. It's just not fun anymore.

Unless you change the racket for a Chally 2 and the ball for a HESH round.

[DarkLink]

Your personal fluff may have females being implanted with 19 implants including a black carapace. They may wear power armour. Their game profiles may be identical to Space Marines. You may even call them 'female space marines'. But they won't be TRUE space marines because the fluff written by the man who was the principle author of 40K says they are all male. End of.


That covers canon in 40k pretty well.

You can have your own little version of 40k in mind when you think of 40k. It isn't the "real" version, just close to it.

For example: Ultramarines are awesome. GW says so. Repeatedly. Over the last few editions and codices. They are the most awesome of awesome Space Marines (other than Grey Knights:D), and Space Marines are the most awesome of awesome of everybody. Period. Because GW says so.

That doesn't mean you can't have your own version of 40k in mind, that fits your views better.

[Denzark]

That doesn't mean you can't have your own version of 40k in mind, that fits your views better.

Yes you are quite right. Your own version of 40K. It's like calling a Yemen torture chamber their own version of an enlightened correctional facility.

When you buy a dodgy "Vouis Litton" handbag from a street vendor in any capital on Earth it ain't the real thing. Likewise, the only 40K is a GW product, not as imagined by Alvin Kugelwanger III in the backwoods of Idaho. And in this product SPACE MARINES ARE MALE (full stop) [or period for my colonial cousins].

[Dark_Templar]

I think I would prefer for the Sisters to get a make over and look like this:

http://www.imagechicken.com/uploads/1261442012008661400.jpg

[Lerra]

Oh wow. That looks awesome.

[Duke]

I just couldn't stop laughing when I thought of sisters getting a makeover. I just keep seeing Oprah saying "OK cannoness Melissa lets see you now!" then she comes out all giggly and with way too much makeup.

This vision ends badly though as she quickly freaks out because the video cameras are forbidden tech and sets the whole set aflame.

Duke

[Subject Keyword]

Holy s**t that picture is awesome.

Okay, so instead of getting in little friendly bicker fights with everyone on this thread, I'll just wrap up all my feelings and not give this a second thought.

First off, Melissia gave an extremely eloquent summery of the reasons that you can't really compare Marines and SoB, in modeling and fluff terms, somewhere in this article (before she started editing quotes and being immature). So saying "if you want Lady Marines, play SoB" is a little like saying "if you don't want to peal your orange, eat an apple." Sure, it's still a delicious fruit that grows on a tree and contains seeds, but it doesn't taste the same and doesn't work in the same dishes and doesn't ripen the same time of year... I'm hungry...

As far as the Femmarines themselves, there is no indication that there have ever been or will ever be a single female marine. It's not in ANY of the books. And neither are "The Emperor's Pointy Sticks.

Did anyone e-mail the guy who makes TSOALR and go "The Emperor's Pointy Sticks can't ever exist in Warhammer ever 'cause it's not in the fluff, so you can't make them. Ever. They don't exist. Neeehh..."

No, because that would be retarded. And for all of you thinking "but the The Emperor's Pointy Sticks are a joke," I'll cite every thread on this forum with someone making their own chapter or any other custom army or fluff. No one posted anything on the thread with the awesome dude who made an Enslaver's army and told him that he couldn't fight any modern armies because the Enslavers were last sighted back in the heyday of the Necrons, they said things like "AWESOME!" Come on people!

What this really comes down to is the fact that a lot of people don't want there to be any female Marines. No one on this forum patrols the threads as a "fluff-****" and strikes down anyone who contradicts the sacred words of the GW staff, because no one cares enough. The reason people are so adamant about the impossibility of Femmarines is because they care about making sure that the Emperor's finest are all men.

And I think that's the most telling thing of all. Let's look at the rarity of female players and the stereo types the world has about Warhammer players (and geeky people in general) being unsuccessful with women,
And then look at this thread.

How welcoming.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Holy s**t that picture is awesome.

Okay, so instead of getting in little friendly bicker fights with everyone on this thread, I'll just wrap up all my feelings and not give this a second thought.

First off, Melissia gave an extremely eloquent summery of the reasons that you can't really compare Marines and SoB, in modeling and fluff terms, somewhere in this article (before she started editing quotes and being immature). So saying "if you want Lady Marines, play SoB" is a little like saying "if you don't want to peal your orange, eat an apple." Sure, it's still a delicious fruit that grows on a tree and contains seeds, but it doesn't taste the same and doesn't work in the same dishes and doesn't ripen the same time of year... I'm hungry...

As far as the Femmarines themselves, there is no indication that there have ever been or will ever be a single female marine. It's not in ANY of the books. And neither are "The Emperor's Pointy Sticks.

Did anyone e-mail the guy who makes TSOALR and go "The Emperor's Pointy Sticks can't ever exist in Warhammer ever 'cause it's not in the fluff, so you can't make them. Ever. They don't exist. Neeehh..."

No, because that would be retarded. And for all of you thinking "but the The Emperor's Pointy Sticks are a joke," I'll cite every thread on this forum with someone making their own chapter or any other custom army or fluff. No one posted anything on the thread with the awesome dude who made an Enslaver's army and told him that he couldn't fight any modern armies because the Enslavers were last sighted back in the heyday of the Necrons, they said things like "AWESOME!" Come on people!

What this really comes down to is the fact that a lot of people don't want there to be any female Marines. No one on this forum patrols the threads as a "fluff-****" and strikes down anyone who contradicts the sacred words of the GW staff, because no one cares enough. The reason people are so adamant about the impossibility of Femmarines is because they care about making sure that the Emperor's finest are all men.

And I think that's the most telling thing of all. Let's look at the rarity of female players and the stereo types the world has about Warhammer players (and geeky people in general) being unsuccessful with women,
And then look at this thread.

How welcoming.


What about all the married men and guys with successful relationships that play this game? You know the guys with loving wives and happy kids? Or do they not exist because everyone who plays this game has to be a fatass, smelly, long haired, buck toothed freak? Seriously, that whole point just comes across as: "Why do I even play 40K, this game is nerdy, please say I am cool! PLEASE!!!!!!"

[imperialsavant]

:mad:
You know, I called into the GW store in the huge Chermside shopping mall in Queenslad whilst up here on holidays & they had NO Sisters of Battle stuff at all!

Melissa time you Drop Podded over here with Hvy Flamer.;)

[imperialsavant]

I think I would prefer for the Sisters to get a make over and look like this:

http://www.imagechicken.com/uploads/1261442012008661400.jpg

;) Now that would be an awesome Celestian C/C model!
Yes please a squad of 20, thank you!

[B_Steele]

I, for one, am a self-proclaimed fluff-fanatic...and that is my only reason for standing in the way of female marines.

It is also my reason why I never use Special Characters in commonplace games (as fluff-wise, they would not be in such a tiny engagement every time)...but I digress.

Married...check.
Child...check.
Happy life...check.
Sucessful game industry career...check.

I guess I fall into the category of people who dislike the idea of changing the fluff on such a major level for OTHER reasons than some kind of misunderstanding social flaw concerning women.

Alright folks, I was having fun watching this debate...please continue... :)

-Bry

[B_Steele]

Melissa time you Drop Podded over here with Hvy Flamer.


Silly boy! The frail puny body of the Sisters could NEVER withstand the jarring impact of a proper drop pod landing!!! :)

(Just kidding Mel, I love the Sororitas too...I just couldn't resist. :o )

[Sangre]

I think they said at some point that the G-forces involved could liquefy unmodified human flesh.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

I think they said at some point that the G-forces involved could liquefy unmodified human flesh.

How in the name of science is that possible...

[Dark_Templar]

I think a brilliant reimagining of the sisters would result in one absolutely kick-a$$ army.

It could mean that we have an interesting marine-type force, that would not necessarily have the full marine power-armored stat line.

Make them faster, smarter, I dunno, just don't let them go to waste.

DT

Edit: I would kinda like to see some liquified guardsman. Stick a squad in a drop pod and shoot them to the nearest planetoid. Could be a new sport.

[Subject Keyword]

What about all the married men and guys with successful relationships that play this game? You know the guys with loving wives and happy kids? Or do they not exist because everyone who plays this game has to be a fatass, smelly, long haired, buck toothed freak? Seriously, that whole point just comes across as: "Why do I even play 40K, this game is nerdy, please say I am cool! PLEASE!!!!!!"

OK, so perhaps I should have worded that a bit differently. :rolleyes: I've been boiling snow for drinking water in a 15 degree house all day, and just returned to the modern world, so you'll have to forgive me.

I think what I meant was this:


the stereo types the world has about Warhammer players

They're not a bit true.

All of the guys with girlfriends and wives you are talking about are the guys I game with.
The difference is, who is more vocal. And faux macho dudes who are zealously opposed to things like, I dunno, female Space Marines, tend to be pretty outspoken in a way that reinforces the terrible and COMPLETELY UNTRUE stereo types that the status quo have about us. Just like there are hundreds of Star Trek fans who are lawyers and artists and doctors and soldiers, but when you say "Star Trek Fan" people think about a zit factory in a Klingon outfit.

I'm truly sorry. I would never EVER want to insult my favorite group of people on the planet! I do, after all, belong to them.

And, with the utmost respect, I'm really not that concerned with whether or not people think I'm cool or even correct in anything I say. I guess I'm just a fan of free speech and open dialogue.:D

[Marshal2Crusaders]

OK, so perhaps I should have worded that a bit differently. :rolleyes: I've been boiling snow for drinking water in a 15 degree house all day, and just returned to the modern world, so you'll have to forgive me.

I think what I meant was this:


They're not a bit true.

All of the guys with girlfriends and wives you are talking about are the guys I game with.
The difference is, who is more vocal. And faux macho dudes who are zealously opposed to things like, I dunno, female Space Marines, tend to be pretty outspoken in a way that reinforces the terrible and COMPLETELY UNTRUE stereo types that the status quo have about us. Just like there are hundreds of Star Trek fans who are lawyers and artists and doctors and soldiers, but when you say "Star Trek Fan" people think about a zit factory in a Klingon outfit.

I'm truly sorry. I would never EVER want to insult my favorite group of people on the planet! I do, after all, belong to them.

And, with the utmost respect, I'm really not that concerned with whether or not people think I'm cool or even correct in anything I say. I guess I'm just a fan of free speech and open dialogue.:D

Then I rescind my snarky tone and instead leave my post as a warning to all others who think along the lines I was describing.

[Dark_Templar]

When I think wargaming community, I think Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons. Yes, it is a stereotype, but it generally fits pretty well.

By the way. Plastic Sisters ftw.

[Subject Keyword]

Then I rescind my snarky tone and instead leave my post as a warning to all others who think along the lines I was describing.

Amen, brother.
F***ing hippys at my school have this AWFUL attitude about gamers. Makes me want to go all Cartman on their a**es and mutilate them with a giant drill.

By the way, nice Halo Avatar (I love bullet hoses).
What are your thoughts on the whole "Space Marine Vs. Spartan" argument?

[Aldramelech]

When I think war gaming community, I think Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons. Yes, it is a stereotype, but it generally fits pretty well.

By the way. Plastic Sisters ftw.

That guy certainly exists, theres one at every show in the UK, and everyone is desperately try to avoid getting into conversation with him! lol

By far the largest group of gamers at any event here are married guys in their 30s (of which I am one).
Whats interesting about that is the very low proportion of our kids that follow in our footsteps.

[Aldramelech]

Double post: Sorry.

Went into GW for stuff yesterday. Being totally brainwashed over the months by Lady M I found myself looking at what they had in the way of Sisters.

I was very surprised to find the whole range on sale. I was under the impression that they were a very "niche" army that no one really bothered with anymore because they are so out of date. And yet there it was, Figures, vehicles and books all quite prominently displayed alongside the SM.

Is this common? Or is Exeter GW the last great bastion of SoB?

[Denzark]

Never really looked at that - but if the 20-30 somethings were following the RT back in the day, then is it not now 20 odd years later their spawn wil start to come on line?

Personally I was 10 when I started (in 1990) so only 8 years until I can hook my lad on plastic crack: " No dear I know I have 80000 Space Marines this battle force is for Master Denzark honest!"

[Aldramelech]

Ah you see theres where you might be disappointed! lol I don't know why but it just never seems to work that way.

I got a 10 year old girl who's far more interested in what Cheryl Cole's wearing next week and whether JLS are gonna take their shirts off in their next video!

[Denzark]

The horror...The horror.......

[Renegade]

Double post: Sorry.

Went into GW for stuff yesterday. Being totally brainwashed over the months by Lady M I found myself looking at what they had in the way of Sisters.

I was very surprised to find the whole range on sale. I was under the impression that they were a very "niche" army that no one really bothered with anymore because they are so out of date. And yet there it was, Figures, vehicles and books all quite prominently displayed alongside the SM.

Is this common? Or is Exeter GW the last great bastion of SoB?

Nope, the Bristol stores have them to, and a few SoB players.

They are however, along with GK, one of the only armies not on display. The only female players I know play nids or DE anyway:confused:

[Herald of Nurgle]

Double post: Sorry.

Went into GW for stuff yesterday. Being totally brainwashed over the months by Lady M I found myself looking at what they had in the way of Sisters.

I was very surprised to find the whole range on sale. I was under the impression that they were a very "niche" army that no one really bothered with anymore because they are so out of date. And yet there it was, Figures, vehicles and books all quite prominently displayed alongside the SM.

Is this common? Or is Exeter GW the last great bastion of SoB?
Northampton has three regular players of SoB, technically. 1 of them is a girl. And no, i've asked... it isn't Mellisia.

[Sangre]

I've seen Sisters in some of the bigger stores, but right now my day-to-day local is GW Covent Garden which is about the size of a shoebox.

[Denzark]

I've seen Sisters in some of the bigger stores, but right now my day-to-day local is GW Covent Garden which is about the size of a shoebox.

Everyfink rahnd abaht London is the size of a shoebox innit?

[Duke]

My FLGS has no SOB stuff on the wall, none! But also know that he is an independent retailer and isn't a partnership store yet.

From what I understand, once you become partnership status you are forced to maintain certain stock, Im sure that the Basic SoB models are among those.

For Example, the Hobby Town down the street from where I play has almost the entire range of SoB... Mostly they are short on certain blisters.

Duke

[Aldramelech]

It just seemed odd that everyone goes on about how neglected they are and yet they have a very well stocked and prominent part of the Exeter store.

[Duke]

Right, so next time Im in england to see my Liverpool play Ill just run by Exeter and pick up some stuff, lol

Duke

[Aldramelech]

I'll go out on a limb here and speak for the majority of us English types when I say Id happily drop a small tactical device on Liverpool to prevent scouser's contaminating the rest of the world!lol

[Denzark]

Harsh...................But fair!

[jeffersonian000]

Well, on the other side of the pond in mery old Phoenix, Arizona at my FLGS, we have 3 regular SoB players and only 1 is female (in college, oddly enough named Melissa, but not our Melissia). The other two gentlemen are in their 30's to 40's and started playing Sisters when they first came out in 2nd ed. My FLGS still carries a full Sisters product line with the exception of the Excorist kit, which they will order upon request.

I also have Sisters from 2nd ed, as well as one of the 1st ed "Female in Power Armour" figures better known as "Gabs" which I've been planning on painting up as an Inquisitor (I play Grey Knights regularly these days and only ally Sisters in for 2000+ pt games). When I recently got back into playing 40k after a break between 2nd and 5th, I found retooling my old Sisters army into a modern WH mech army was way too expensive (12 tanks) and cheaper to just buy a brand new Grey Knights army (4 squads and 3 LR's).

SJ

[Denzark]

I can't quite remember but whilst we're ever so slightly loosely on the subject, is there room on a SOB miniature to paint them so they are recognisably wearing spiderman pants a la Cameron Diaz in Charlie's Angels?

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Our Melissa is just an electronic incarnation of Alicia Dominica travelled through time to spread the Emperor's Word via Forums.

[Dark_Templar]

That guy certainly exists, theres one at every show in the UK, and everyone is desperately try to avoid getting into conversation with him! lol

By far the largest group of gamers at any event here are married guys in their 30s (of which I am one).
Whats interesting about that is the very low proportion of our kids that follow in our footsteps.

Please don't get me wrong, I am married with kids also, it just does not change the image I have when I think of the gaming tables upstairs at an Indy store.

[imperialsavant]

I think they said at some point that the G-forces involved could liquefy unmodified human flesh.

:eek: No, No! Sisters Power Armour allows them to use Pods.
Reference: Citadel Journal & BoLS Inquisitorial Strike Forces.

[imperialsavant]

SNIP*****
Edit: I would kinda like to see some liquified guardsman. Stick a squad in a drop pod and shoot them to the nearest planetoid. Could be a new sport.

:D So maybe "Dwarf Throwing" originated in Warhammer Fantasy not Lord of the Rings?:cool:

[Sangre]

Because I love pouring petrol on smouldering fires, I'd like to point out that as of the most recent printing of the book Index Astartes Volume I which has recently come into my possession, the line about Space Marine implants being keyed to male genotypes is still included. So yah boo sucks to you lot.

[Gotthammer]

And the most recent marine codex (printed after Index Astartes) states they're designed for "any normal adolescant human". How does that not include females?

[Marshal2Crusaders]

And the most recent marine codex (printed after Index Astartes) states they're designed for "any normal adolescant human". How does that not include females?

Man, if I had your reasoning skills I could work for the government.

[Gotthammer]

A crushing rebuttal, but it doesn't adress my point.

You should try for that career change ;)

[Sangre]

Arse biscuits. I haven't read those bits of the new codex.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Arse biscuits. I haven't read those bits of the new codex.

See, whenever you read it in context, it is clearly male centric. Dont worry about it, its just reaching.

[Sangre]

They are always "Battle Brothers" though.

[Gotthammer]

So is almost everything in the English language save White Wolf RPG sourcebooks - he/his/him is the generic pronoun as English has no neuter form to use. See also the IG codex - do female guard cease to exist as they are not mentioned within its pages?

Still no counter to what it says (it's page 8 btw).

Example:
Previously voting could only be performed by males.
Now voting is designed so that an ordinary (adolescant) human can vote.

One excludes females by explicitly including only males. The second implicitly includes females by including all members of humanity who are normal (and in context adolescant). So unless you wish to posit that females are not in fact part of the human race I don't see how there is any way around the possability of females becoming marines by GW's latest official Space Marine publication.


As for the "Battle Brothers" thing, Fallout has the Brotherhood of Steel. Everyone in it is called brother (like marines) and you can ask a female memeber what's up with that and they tell you it's because of tradion. And space marines sure love their wacky traditions.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

So is almost everything in the English language save White Wolf RPG sourcebooks - he/his/him is the generic pronoun as English has no neuter form to use. See also the IG codex - do female guard cease to exist as they are not mentioned within its pages?

Still no counter to what it says (it's page 8 btw).

Example:
Previously voting could only be performed by males.
Now voting is designed so that an ordinary (adolescant) human can vote.

One excludes females by explicitly including only males. The second implicitly includes females by including all members of humanity who are normal (and in context adolescant). So unless you wish to posit that females are not in fact part of the human race I don't see how there is any way around the possability of females becoming marines by GW's latest official Space Marine publication.


As for the "Battle Brothers" thing, Fallout has the Brotherhood of Steel. Everyone in it is called brother (like marines) and you can ask a female memeber what's up with that and they tell you it's because of tradion. And space marines sure love their wacky traditions.

JUST.STOP.

Index Astartes provides the most in-depth look at the creation of a Space Marine published by GW. It specifically says no females can be Space Marines. Girls in Power Armor, Genetically Enhanced Girls, Bionic-Girls, etc can all act like space marines, but will never be Adeptus Astartes, because being an Adeptus Astartes has a specific process that is followed to become one, and it excludes females. Your book doesnt cancel mine, mine cancels yours based on the simple fact it is SPECIFIC.

[Sangre]

If it actually says "Any normal adolescent human" in those exact words then that's fair enough.

[Lerra]

This is why I hate comp scores. People are very passionate on both sides of the issues, but at the end of the day, it's just a game and the fluff is extremely malleable. Comp turns it into a serious issue, though.

For the next tournament, I'll write a different backstory just to please the fluffmonkeys. My female marines will be double transgender female-to-male-to-female marines. Born female, turned male so that they could become space marines, and then turned back into women. Let's see if that reduces the score penalty . . .

[Duke]

Holy smokes, you should include a model that has a psycho-therapist in your army... Cause your "marines," are going to need it.

Duke

[Lerra]

I'm already getting zeroes on comp for being unfluffy and I'm disqualified from best painting for fielding a mixed gender army. At this point I may as well have fun with it.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

I'm already getting zeroes on comp for being unfluffy and I'm disqualified from best painting for fielding a mixed gender army. At this point I may as well have fun with it.

Your first problem is playing tournaments. And telling people you have femme marines.

[Cyberscape7]

All that needs to be said is that Male Space Marines have enraged hormones already. If there were females I think its safe to say the addrenelin would make their hearts stop.
But as actual models? I still dont think that would attract more girls to the game.

[Duke]

(stabs the thread in the heart) Die already!

Duke

[Dark_Templar]

*DT continues beating dead horse*

Fine. No Female Marines. But at least make Sisters complete harda$$es. Flying Nuns just do not strike fear into the heart like some gritty blood soaked heavily armed and armoured warrior women do.

[Subject Keyword]

(stabs the thread in the heart) Die already!

Duke

(Assists Duke in stabbing thread in heart) "BE GONE DEMON! I BANISH THEE!!! GO BACK TO THE HELL FROM WHICH YOU CAME!!!"

[Melissia]

*stabs thread with a sword, made of fire, but not before this:*

[Aldramelech]

I'm already getting zeroes on comp for being unfluffy and I'm disqualified from best painting for fielding a mixed gender army. At this point I may as well have fun with it.

Really? Disqualified? WTF..........

[Denzark]

Can anyone explain one thing - why on earth would you want your army to diametrically oppose the mock reality of a fake game setting?

I'm not saying don't invent chapters, or even go against the grain and say, this is the Space Wolves 18th successor chapter when we know there was only limited numbers.

I'm on about female marines? WTF? It's ridiculous really, a gimmic like a hello kitty army or something. It adds nothing to the fluff, nothing to the game, whilst I am sure there is the potential for someone to execute it perfectly modelling wise.

It's like a child trying to shock for the sake of it. Just get over it. Don't try and read the latest codex and then tell us about 'oh hey they used the word human not male'. It's tosh, pish and fidllesticks. Is fan fiction less relevant than canon? Well the moonshine meanderings of D. Caspar Rattle Back Kugelwanger III are of little value or interest outside his own little world - otherwise he would be part of the design team.

I'll give you a spoiler before imploring a MOD to lock this thread:

In the grim darkness of the far future there is no chapter of Marines all in wheel chairs due to congenital birth defects. There is no chapter of marines slowly dying of AIDS because their apothecaries were all heroin addicts and used bad needles. THERE IS NO CHAPTER OF FEMALE MARINES.

[Melissia]

Can anyone explain one thing - why on earth would you want your army to diametrically oppose the mock reality of a fake game setting?You have yet to actually prove that it is in fact diametrically opposed to the reality of the 40k setting. Marines being male isn't some core uber-important fact of 40k, it's just some nit that people pick. Even IF you are right (Which you have yet to prove) in that there are no female Astartes, this fact is marginal and unimportant at best (as pointed out earlier in this thread, Marines actually have no gender, so it in the end it seems somewhat irrelevant which gender they were before the implants). The fact that so many people nerdrage over it is laughable. Yours included.

[Sangre]

Tee hee. I'm so chuffed with myself. I'm starting to see myself as the handsome British Loki.

[Aldramelech]

Shut up Sangre!

lol

[BuFFo]

But as actual models? I still dont think that would attract more girls to the game.

You are right. Sisters of Battle didn't attract the amount of female gamers GW was projecting to attract back in the late 90's.

[Valkerie]

We need to bury this thread at a crossroads with a stake through its heart, then fill the grave with flaming napalm. When that burns out, we need to salt the earth, fill the grave with concrete, and put a parking lot on top of it. THEN we need to nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[Subject Keyword]

We need to bury this thread at a crossroads with a stake through its heart, then fill the grave with flaming napalm. When that burns out, we need to salt the earth, fill the grave with concrete, and put a parking lot on top of it. THEN we need to nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Alternatively, the moderators could swoop down on heavenly wings and purge the ground where this thread stands... And then nuke it.

[Melissia]

Nuking is for wimps.

Try this:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/fistofgod3zg.jpg

[Polonius]

There's sort of a standard response in threads like this that I share wherever I go.

The 40k universe is a big place. Pretty much everything we know about it is via unreliable narrators, and even the most reliable turn out to be wrong from time to time, as anybody who played when necrons arrived can attest to.

To say that something is impossible is to miss the point of the 40k universe. Anything can be justified through decent story telling. With a good idea, and good execution, female marines are no stranger than anything else that occurs. The lost legions, Slaaneshie weirdness, lost xenotech, or simple hand waving can all explain how a relatively minor fact about Marines is less true than we though. In terms of execution, I think as has been pointed out ad nauseum that you'd see a pretty standard Marine army, with at most a few feminine faces.

Also, I haven't read all the posts, but I'm guessing somebody trotted out the "if you want female space marines, play sisters" chestnut. SoB are not astartes, and I'm guessing however wants female marines want's marines more than females.

So, while "Breasts in space" is pretty silly, so is entrenching on a pretty minor point of fluff.

[Fellend]

This is just plain silly. This discussion will lead nowhere as it's fuelled by feministic rage more than anything.

1: Nowhere in the fluff does it say that there cannot be female space marines: Actually it does. it's been linked in Index astartes. That's a sign

2: The Emperor is male, the primarchs are male, all official space marines are male.
yes there are two missing legions and primarchs. Could they be female? possibly, but then they are expunged and erased by history so it matters little. For all intents and purposes untill GW says otherwise they do not exist

3: Why would you use a female? As said before women are equal in warfare except when it comes to basic stamina and the ability to smash skulls with brute strength. Well this is warhammer 40k, basic stamina and the ability to smash skulls is pretty much what the Astartes is about.
Having done military service with alot of females I can say that in most situations they can perform equally well. But no women passed the physical test required to do service abroad. That includes all officers of the regiment. No women passed the "rescue wounded plutoon mate" test as it requires you to lift your mate while he carries full wargear and then run with him 100 meters.
Women are equal in value, not in stength. There's a reason as to why men compete at different levels. 40k mixtures of hormones might change this but as there is no fluff saying it or no one has decided to try well tough ****.
Also, why waste women who can breed new soldiers? pregnancy doesn't happen to men. Send the men to die and the women can stay home, defend the planet and breed new men to send to other planets.

4: Untill GW releases any official fluff saying there is female space marines there are none. Live with it

5: The Space Marine (tm and probably C and R as well) has been defined to be this way. They are not going to mess with it just to be politically correct.

6: If now there was a female marine that was made with hormone cocktails to be exactly as a man. How would she look in anyway different from her male counter parts? Unless they add long hair... and put breasts on the power armor thus making models looking pretty much exactly as sisters of battles. They would still be marines just look exactly like SOBs pointless and waste of time

7: If you really want female marines . just make them, make up whatever fluff you want and say that they all smell of roses while they slaughter the enemies of the Emperor. Who cares, it's your army as long as you are clear with what counts as what I don't think they'll complain. Hell I saw a tau army made completely out of Star Wars models, No one complained.

8: make female heads for IG and Eldar where the difference will actually be noticable.

9: If you want more female players to join warhammer. Actually if you want more male members as well, remember to shower, follow basic hygiene rules, don't stare at peoples body parts. Don't touch without permission. Don't get into long rants about the existance of female space marines. Oh and don't be the condescending dweeb that thinks you are the king of the world because you happend to know the average damage a squad of space marine with bolters do.

[Melissia]

I love how this topic causes so much nerdrage from marine fans.

[Polonius]

This is just plain silly. This discussion will lead nowhere as it's fuelled by feministic rage more than anything.

That's a very reaching statement. First off, femistic isn't a word, but I'm assuming you mean feminist. Either way, I don't think that's what's fueling the discussion. I think it has far more to do with the... energetic response the idea gets from some people that fuels things. I may be wrong, but I'm guessing the timeline went something like this:

1a: somebody said, "hey, a chapter of female marines would be cool. Nobody has done that...
1b: somebody else said, "I like boobs. I like marines. Let's have marines with boobs."

2: a barrage of angry people inform the above that females can never, ever, be Asatartes.

3: Rule 47 of the internet kicks in: It's a lot of fun to tweak people emotionally invested in a ridiculous position. People begin arguing about female marines to simply annoy the hidebound.



4: Untill GW releases any official fluff saying there is female space marines there are none. Live with it

You had some decent points, but this one is a classic example of missing the forest for the trees. The whole point of 40k, or at least a major point, is the ability to create your own story. There are guidelines, and there are rules to making your "story" fit into the canon, but escaping the official fluff is the part of the fun. I mean, if I were to build a Tau army based on the idea that they were instructed on the eldar Path and gods by exodites, and so built a tau army on that concept, it'd be kind of neat, right? But that's not in the official fluff.

You can rely on the positive statement that the process doesn't work on females, but only the extent that the normal process is used. To state that hobbyists are bound by negative statements, that is to say we can only use the ideas generated by GW, is against the very nature of the hobby.


5: The Space Marine (tm and probably C and R as well) has been defined to be this way. They are not going to mess with it just to be politically correct.

I think the political correctedness element is a bit of a strawman. I don't think people are worried about equality in the grim darkness of the far future.


6: If now there was a female marine that was made with hormone cocktails to be exactly as a man. How would she look in anyway different from her male counter parts? Unless they add long hair... and put breasts on the power armor thus making models looking pretty much exactly as sisters of battles. They would still be marines just look exactly like SOBs pointless and waste of time

They would actually look like normal marines, not SoB. Sisters don't have the added height/bulk/strength.

The good point to be made is that marines with boobs is a fairly stupid concept.

[Gotthammer]

If it actually says "Any normal adolescent human" in those exact words then that's fair enough.

I did slightly misquote - the line is "These organs were designed so that they could be implanted into the body of an ordinary adolescent human."


JUST.STOP.

Index Astartes provides the most in-depth look at the creation of a Space Marine published by GW. It specifically says no females can be Space Marines. Girls in Power Armor, Genetically Enhanced Girls, Bionic-Girls, etc can all act like space marines, but will never be Adeptus Astartes, because being an Adeptus Astartes has a specific process that is followed to become one, and it excludes females. Your book doesnt cancel mine, mine cancels yours based on the simple fact it is SPECIFIC.

I have a copy of Adeptus Titanicus - it specifically says that Horus (who was the Emp's greatest general, not a primarch) was posessed by a daemon and killed by the Emperor in his (Horus') command bunker on Earth.
I have a copy of the Compendium - it specifically states Primarchs are "the heroes of each Chapter, who fell in battle and upheld the honour and traditions of the Legiones Astartes...". It later mentions that every Chaplain wears one or more pieces of wargear from one or more of the Chapter's Primarchs.
Space Wolves are specifically said to be one of the most Codex adherent chapters around (if you look in the old marine painting guide that came with the marine paint box).
Ollanus Pious is specifically mentioned as interceding between Horus and the Emperor, and his death bought the Emp enough time to get back up and finish the traitor.
The original version of that very same Index Astartes article specifically mentions how the Space Marines were first created and organised into Chapters (not legions), and that only seven of the first founding Chapters survive in the 41st millenium.

So was Horus' earth bound command bunker mentioned a second Horus they don't mention much, or was it changed?
Did they change who the Primarchs were, despite being very specific, or did they change it?
Were the Space Wolves super Codex loving for a brief period after Russ left and they felt all rebellious or something?
Was there a line to save the Emperor? First Ollanus, then an Imperial Fist, then a Custodes ? Or could they have changed things?
Were they Chapters first, then grew to legions - no then the story of the Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons wouldn't make sense... Did they re-found two of the first founding Chapters? Is it a time travelling Iron Hands joke? Or did they just change things?
I think you can see my point here.

Also, "ordinary adolescent human" is rather specific - all humans (male and female, unless you care to argue otherwise), who are adolescent and ordinary.

You are yet to show how this doesn't include females, only that another source precludes them. In a debate over real history an earlier specific source would be prized, but in 40k's rubbery background the more recent itteration is GW's current line (see my earlier point about Olanus vs the Custodes).



I'm on about female marines? WTF? It's ridiculous really, a gimmic like a hello kitty army or something. It adds nothing to the fluff, nothing to the game, whilst I am sure there is the potential for someone to execute it perfectly modelling wise.

It's like a child trying to shock for the sake of it. Just get over it. Don't try and read the latest codex and then tell us about 'oh hey they used the word human not male'. It's tosh, pish and fidllesticks.

You mean a gimmic like viking marines, knight templar marines, vampire marines, evil marines, mysterious (possibly traitorous) marines, super psychic marines, motorbike marines, cyborg marines, fancy flamethrower and meltagun marines... that sort of thing? ;)

Given that it is, in reading the whole paragraph, rather odd to use human I think it is important. It's in the book, it says what it says, and I'm yet to see any argument that the meaning I draw from it is incorrect. Nobody has presented any argument that it precludes female marines - only pseudo science (given we're talking about science that allos you to eat a guy's leg and steal his memories any mention of modern science is laughable) or simply saying "it's tosh, pish and fidllesticks".
The only way to say it doesn't include the possability for female marines is if you say females aren't human (the sentance is at the top of this post, page 8 of the codex if you want to check). I challenge anyone to tell me how that can be read otherwise.



There is no chapter of marines slowly dying of AIDS because their apothecaries were all heroin addicts and used bad needles.

Legion of the Damned ;)



1: Nowhere in the fluff does it say that there cannot be female space marines: Actually it does. it's been linked in Index astartes. That's a sign

2: The Emperor is male, the primarchs are male, all official space marines are male.
yes there are two missing legions and primarchs. Could they be female? possibly, but then they are expunged and erased by history so it matters little. For all intents and purposes untill GW says otherwise they do not exist

3: Why would you use a female? As said before women are equal in warfare except when it comes to basic stamina and the ability to smash skulls with brute strength. Well this is warhammer 40k, basic stamina and the ability to smash skulls is pretty much what the Astartes is about.
Having done military service with alot of females I can say that in most situations they can perform equally well. But no women passed the physical test required to do service abroad. That includes all officers of the regiment. No women passed the "rescue wounded plutoon mate" test as it requires you to lift your mate while he carries full wargear and then run with him 100 meters.
Women are equal in value, not in stength. There's a reason as to why men compete at different levels. 40k mixtures of hormones might change this but as there is no fluff saying it or no one has decided to try well tough ****.
Also, why waste women who can breed new soldiers? pregnancy doesn't happen to men. Send the men to die and the women can stay home, defend the planet and breed new men to send to other planets.

4: Untill GW releases any official fluff saying there is female space marines there are none. Live with it

5: The Space Marine (tm and probably C and R as well) has been defined to be this way. They are not going to mess with it just to be politically correct.

6: If now there was a female marine that was made with hormone cocktails to be exactly as a man. How would she look in anyway different from her male counter parts? Unless they add long hair... and put breasts on the power armor thus making models looking pretty much exactly as sisters of battles. They would still be marines just look exactly like SOBs pointless and waste of time

7: If you really want female marines . just make them, make up whatever fluff you want and say that they all smell of roses while they slaughter the enemies of the Emperor. Who cares, it's your army as long as you are clear with what counts as what I don't think they'll complain. Hell I saw a tau army made completely out of Star Wars models, No one complained.

8: make female heads for IG and Eldar where the difference will actually be noticable.

9: If you want more female players to join warhammer. Actually if you want more male members as well, remember to shower, follow basic hygiene rules, don't stare at peoples body parts. Don't touch without permission. Don't get into long rants about the existance of female space marines. Oh and don't be the condescending dweeb that thinks you are the king of the world because you happend to know the average damage a squad of space marine with bolters do.


1. See above

2. Yes, no man has ever had a female child! And gender is the primary pre-requisite for organ transplants! :p

3. Remember all that genetic enhancement and the power armour? And if you send all the men away to war how will you get more men - after all acording to your point 2 only men can make more men...?

4. You are aware this is a creative hobby right? Do I need to wait for GW to officially say there is a Chapter called "The Scions of Judgement" before I can make them? Do I need to wait for GW to describe the 743rd IG regiment of Hallifax IV before I make them up? No, so why should I wait for them in this regard?

5. Actually an interesting point. I don't believe it's likely that GW will release female marines. I do think that they are making an effort to remove things that preclude people exploring options in all aspect of the game. For example how the latest Dark Angel codex specifically says you can use Belial and Sammael in your own Chapter as other HQs, or all the named characters in the latest Marine Codex.
So from that point of view, given they encourage pushing the boundaries of their background and exploring all the possabilities I think they are implicitly allowing it to a degree.

6. This has been adressed multiple times earlier in the thread. Inbetween all the bickering there is some good points to be made.

7. Have done - not a full Chapter but a mixed gender one.

8. Nothing to say to this.

9. Agreed (even if we both broke it).

[Melissia]

Actually I'd argue science supports there being female astartes, seeing as women, genetically speaking, aren't that different from men (if we were, it'd make it rather hard to breed...)

Certainly there'd be some females who are actually genetically closer to the primarchs than many of the males that were used. Or even what essentially amounts to genetic twins.

[Duke]

Shut up Sangre!

lol

LMFAO!!! ROFL!!!

I love it when we can slide that in.

Duke

[Melissia]

It's certainly a sentiment I agree with.

[Duke]

Seriously, who ressurected this thread?!

::Looks at Polonius:: He is a thread-cromancer! Off with his head! ::Stabs the thread in the heart with a galic dipped stake::

Die thread die!

Duke

P.S.- anyone cool has already moved on the the "Read but fail to comment thread."

[Melissia]

I already commented on that thread, and your face, too.

[Valkerie]

Nuking is for wimps.

Try this:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/fistofgod3zg.jpg
Trust me, if I could figure out a way to explode the sun, I'd do that, too. A friend once gave me some good advice, "The target can never be too dead. And why use a bullet when you can use a couple of magazines and some C-4."

Seriously though, I've been hearing this same arguement since I started playing 40K, and I started when they switched over from 1st ed. to 2nd ed. The arguements don't change on either side. Basically it will go 'round and 'round until the mods finally get fed up with the personal attacks and lock the thread. Hopefully, that will be fairly soon

[Fellend]

Actually I'd argue science supports there being female astartes, seeing as women, genetically speaking, aren't that different from men (if we were, it'd make it rather hard to breed...)

Certainly there'd be some females who are actually genetically closer to the primarchs than many of the males that were used. Or even what essentially amounts to genetic twins.

: Well you aren't that different, that's true. But we are talking about genetics on a sci-fi level in a world where logic is considered heresy and technology is frightening and most of it is heresy as well. And there probably are, that's why alot of people die during the initiation when they implement the geneseed but with that said that little chromosome might be a big no. Simply the technology to create marines might be completely blocked by that simple chromosome, who knows.


I have a copy of Adeptus Titanicus - it specifically says that Horus (who was the Emp's greatest general, not a primarch) was posessed by a daemon and killed by the Emperor in his (Horus') command bunker on Earth.
I have a copy of the Compendium - it specifically states Primarchs are "the heroes of each Chapter, who fell in battle and upheld the honour and traditions of the Legiones Astartes...". It later mentions that every Chaplain wears one or more pieces of wargear from one or more of the Chapter's Primarchs.
Space Wolves are specifically said to be one of the most Codex adherent chapters around (if you look in the old marine painting guide that came with the marine paint box).
Ollanus Pious is specifically mentioned as interceding between Horus and the Emperor, and his death bought the Emp enough time to get back up and finish the traitor.
The original version of that very same Index Astartes article specifically mentions how the Space Marines were first created and organised into Chapters (not legions), and that only seven of the first founding Chapters survive in the 41st millenium.

So was Horus' earth bound command bunker mentioned a second Horus they don't mention much, or was it changed?
Did they change who the Primarchs were, despite being very specific, or did they change it?
Were the Space Wolves super Codex loving for a brief period after Russ left and they felt all rebellious or something?
Was there a line to save the Emperor? First Ollanus, then an Imperial Fist, then a Custodes ? Or could they have changed things?
Were they Chapters first, then grew to legions - no then the story of the Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons wouldn't make sense... Did they re-found two of the first founding Chapters? Is it a time travelling Iron Hands joke? Or did they just change things?
I think you can see my point here.

Also, "ordinary adolescent human" is rather specific - all humans (male and female, unless you care to argue otherwise), who are adolescent and ordinary.

You are yet to show how this doesn't include females, only that another source precludes them. In a debate over real history an earlier specific source would be prized, but in 40k's rubbery background the more recent itteration is GW's current line (see my earlier point about Olanus vs the Custodes).

But in the cases you've mentioned GW has changed the story line saying no, this is what happened instead.
If they decide to do so and say that marines are female. Well then there's no discussion.
The fact that they are saying that human instead of male might just be a different word. it doesn't have to mean anything, that being said. Sure it can mean that there are female space marines. You are allowed to create your own chapter of them. But it's not accepted as official fluff and thus there aren't any models for it.


2. Yes, no man has ever had a female child! And gender is the primary pre-requisite for organ transplants!

3. Remember all that genetic enhancement and the power armour? And if you send all the men away to war how will you get more men - after all acording to your point 2 only men can make more men...?"

I'm speaking general logistics here. You only need so many men to breed at maximum capacity. The rest is just a waste. (for anyone who've played exalted. 1000 male dragonbloods, 99000 female)
And they can be sent of to die after they've contributed to the mating process. Where as someone has to take care of the children. Most likely the ones that have 9 months of downtime due to pregnancy.

And The Emperor created the primarchs in vats. We know this from among other sources black library. Presumably they were some sort of clones or created with his genes through methods other than impregnation. After all we've heard nothing of an Empress and once again vats.

And as to three. Look at it this way. Women are weaker than men through hormones or whatever reason, i truely don't know and don't care. but there's a reason as to why we don't compete together in the olympics. Now lets say that mens strenght have an arbitrary number 100. Females are at 90. Add space marine genetics to it and the mens stenght go up to 250 womens go up to 240. Why would you with your elite force that are oh so bad ***, and only the finest get selected pick something that is by default weaker?


You had some decent points, but this one is a classic example of missing the forest for the trees. The whole point of 40k, or at least a major point, is the ability to create your own story. There are guidelines, and there are rules to making your "story" fit into the canon, but escaping the official fluff is the part of the fun. I mean, if I were to build a Tau army based on the idea that they were instructed on the eldar Path and gods by exodites, and so built a tau army on that concept, it'd be kind of neat, right? But that's not in the official fluff.

You can rely on the positive statement that the process doesn't work on females, but only the extent that the normal process is used. To state that hobbyists are bound by negative statements, that is to say we can only use the ideas generated by GW, is against the very nature of the hobby.

Nowhere did I say, or at the very least intend to say that you cannot do your own female space marines or tau eldars or whatever really. All I'm saying is that it won't be supported by the official fluff. You are free and encouraged to do your own stuff, as long as it doesn't break the rules of the game (assuming your opponent isn't okay with whatever house rules you use)
And the feministic part was just swenglish. I'm sorry, this is not my main language.


I love how this topic creates so much nerdrage among marine fans
And you aren't at all fueling it, behaving poorly, calling people names and acting just as bad because you feel slightled that your nerdiness isn't accepted by the general public? Glasshouses Melissa.

That being said. It generates nerdrage because Space Marines are Iconic to warhammer 40k. Many probably began playing because of them and you are trampling on their dreams of cool murdermachines in power armour. It's annoying like when people use logic to discuss harry potter (come on voldemort SHANK HIM, SHOOT HIM WITH A DAMN SNIPER RIFLE!). And yes we are nerds. We generate nerdrage when people mess with our little fantasy worlds. Live with it, I don't know you at all but I'm sure you behave just as silly over something else. If nothing else the name calling and personal attacks you use are not a very mature sign.

Finally remember: Arguing on the internet is like participating in the special olympics. Even if you win, you are still retarded.

[Melissia]

You say that chromosome is a big no, but I don't see where it says it in modern fluff. Only a piece of fluff that IIRC is older than half the posters in this thread.

And you aren't at all fueling it, behaving poorly, calling people names and acting just as bad because you feel slightled that your nerdiness isn't accepted by the general public? Glasshouses Melissa.I only intentionally insulted people who posted sexist viewpoints, because people like that aren't worthy of being respected in the first place.

[Necrosis]

I'm going to try and stay as neutral as possible. Now lets say they did somehow create female space marines. Wouldn't the end up looking like other normal space marines. I mean the face might be a bit more femine like but their bodies would look the same as a guy. You put a helmet on and theirs no way to tell if it's a guy or girl. Cause when you go through everything a space marine has gone through you pretty much all look the same "generally" expect for the face.

[Melissia]

I would tend to agree, Necrosis. But that wouldn't stop people from making female astartes, even if they looked practically identical. I don't know about others in this thread, but I find a female protagonist to be more interesting than a male one. Literature and fanfiction is stuffed to the brim with male protagonists, they're all over the place.

[Necrosis]

I do agree with you their Melissia and that's why I was a bit dissapointed at the new guard codex. Cause guard have both males and females yet they only had male heroes. I would have like to seen a few females ones to.

[Warfare]

It is rather amusing how all the ones commenting about 'nerd wars' are the participants in said argument... Irregardless regardless, arguing whether female space marines fit in with fluff is stupid.

Leaving aside for a minute the fact that no women have ever appeared to me in SM fluff over the years, at even a trial level/squad level ranking , marines explicitly referring to each other as 'brothers', most of the marine chapters drawing upon the 1/1,000,000,000 most physically able candidate etc., unless a female is altered drastically before reaching maturity, there is no way that she could hope to contend physically with a man when searching for 'the best' humanity can muster (anatomically, it is illogical) and there aren't too many chapters that search for candidates in their infant stages and by 'aren't many', I mean none. Arguing that their could be female marines is just arguing for the sake of arguing to be honest. May as well argue over whether 'fluff wise, could the tyranids mass teleport to cadia and then all learn to fly over the course of a 20 minute seminar lecture given by the recently revived horus?'. You could probably come to the conclusion that 'GW hasn't said it can't' + 'chaos could come into play' + 'you never know' but I would have thought that common sense would make an appearance (though then again, a 40 page debate on whether or not female space marines exist says otherwise). Yes, it could happen, but no, you cannot rationally justify female marines 'fluff-wise' (beyond, 'could if this and that and this and that') until the big GW says so in my books.

Either way, if you dont care about fluff, plow right ahead with a female marine army. Its not like you are going to be d/q'ed from events for headswaps. Also lets be honest here, it's not like much of the 40k universe is actually plausible to begin with.

Oh and in my opinion, the SOB minis are just about right taking the scale of the models into consideration. If GW had made them an army with more militarily correct armour (and if they are going into that amount of precision, helmeting all minis would be a must as not having them helmeted defeats the purpose of moulding correct armour), we would all be moaning that they were 'just another bloody marine spin-off' or something.

And I don't even care for fluff. <insert 'thumbs up' smilie>

[Melissia]

Duh, I joined in because I like a good debate and this one was, mostly at any rate, civil. Most of the time when this topic is brought up, it involves nerdrage on the highest level, and while amusing to watch, isn't even close to productive.


you cannot rationally justify female marines 'fluff-wise'
Sure you can. The Inquisition and the Mechanicus both play around with Astartes gene-seed with disturbing frequency, producing blessed or cursed foundings. Noone could prove that one of these experiments couldn't lead to geneseed that works on females. One could even say that one of the cursed foundings produced a female chapter and be done with it, and it'd be hard to argue that it wouldn't be feasible and reasonable.

[Sangre]

One could even say that one of the cursed foundings produced a female chapter and be done with it, and it'd be hard to argue that it wouldn't be feasible and reasonable.

No it wouldn't. Watch: It'd be infeasible and unreasonable because Space Marines do not work that way.

[Melissia]

No it wouldn't. Watch: It'd be infeasible and unreasonable because Space Marines do not work that way.

By your definition . Not by GW's.

[Sangre]

By GW's definition, see Index Astartes Volume 1. That's canon. Move along.

[Polonius]

For normal implantations. For anything abnormal, the rules obviously no longer apply.

[Fellend]

See this is the problem with this discussion. All evidence, all official canon points to the simple answer: There are no female space marines. They might have tried that at somepoint. But it's been writted out, forgotten and denied much like squats.

Yes Melissa. You are allowed to have your female space marines. In your w40k universe there can be millions of them. Infact there need not to be any male ones at all. And you'll have a great time modeling this, writing your own fluff and explaining it to confused nerds at tournaments but untill GW releases any female space marines (again) or releases some fluff telling of these marines. It's just not very likely to be accepted.

Use ordinary logic to solve it. If the Imperium could use all of their population instead of half to create murder machines don't you think they would have done it already?
Obviously for WHATEVER reason, there are no female space marines. Whether it's because of tradition, tech-heresy, genetics, gene seed problems or that it's annoying to make power armour for girls. Who knows.
The point is, officially there are no female space marines. Yes you can create them in your own universe. Have fun with it, but it's not going to be official fluff just because GW doesn't mention that there are none.

When you think about it they also don't mention that errant voidwhales is slowly devouring the entire universe when they aren't playing poker.
Nor are they mentioning that I captain Kirk once visited Terra and was executed for spreading Peace and Prosperity.
Or that orks are the genetic offsping of George W Bush who I'd imagine reproduce like fungii.

The only "evidence" you have is that GW hasn't officially said No. And as you can see there's alot of things they haven't officially said no to. It's a really moot point.

[Warfare]

Sure you can. The Inquisition and the Mechanicus both play around with Astartes gene-seed with disturbing frequency, producing blessed or cursed foundings. Noone could prove that one of these experiments couldn't lead to geneseed that works on females. One could even say that one of the cursed foundings produced a female chapter and be done with it, and it'd be hard to argue that it wouldn't be feasible and reasonable.
Right, so going back to my point, beyond 'could if this and that and this and that', you cannot justify female marines.

Fellend summed it up better than I managed to:


The only "evidence" you have is that GW hasn't officially said No. And as you can see there's alot of things they haven't officially said no to. It's a really moot point.

[Melissia]

Warfare: Again, there's no "could if this and that and this and that", that's something that HAS happened. Unlike the acclamations of "NO FEMALE MARINES!", what I cite is actual canon. So you can kindly go find another argument because your current one is an absolute failure-- the justifications for female Astartes already fully exist in the fluff.


Fellend: I don't want female Space Marines, so I don't give a crap. But others do, and watching marine players nerdrage so much gives me this warm fuzzy feeling in my heart.

And if you want evidence?

1: The female genome is not very different from the male genome.
2: The Mechanicus has altered geneseed in the past, on its own or in partnerships with the Inquisition.
3: This has been done on a wide scale AND a small one, from entire foundings to just a few Astartes.

All the facts that one needs to have female Astartes. The normal geneseed may (or may not, given the recent use of "ordinary adolescent" as opposed to male) be incompatible, but that doesn't mean much when the gene-seed has been altered, sometimes drastically-- the Lamenters were cured of the Blood Angels' curse. The Black Dragons had a startling mutation, which formed bone crests on their head and bone blades on their forearms and elbows (which they reinforced with adamantium and used as combat blades). The Minotaurs were friggin' huge, and the Sons of Antaeus are durable beyond belief. The Flame Falcons were so heavily altered that they burst into flame in battle in a way that did not hurt the astartes, only their enemies.

[Duke]

Warfare: Again, there's no "could if this and that and this and that", that's something that HAS happened. Unlike the acclamations of "NO FEMALE MARINES!", what I cite is actual canon. So you can kindly go find another argument because your current one is an absolute failure-- the justifications for female Astartes already fully exist in the fluff.


Fellend: I don't want female Space Marines, so I don't give a crap. But others do, and watching marine players nerdrage so much gives me this warm fuzzy feeling in my heart.

And if you want evidence?

1: The female genome is not very different from the male genome.
2: The Mechanicus has altered geneseed in the past, on its own or in partnerships with the Inquisition.
3: This has been done on a wide scale AND a small one, from entire foundings to just a few Astartes.

All the facts that one needs to have female Astartes. The normal geneseed may (or may not, given the recent use of "ordinary adolescent" as opposed to male) be incompatible, but that doesn't mean much when the gene-seed has been altered, sometimes drastically-- the Lamenters were cured of the Blood Angels' curse. The Black Dragons had a startling mutation, which formed bone crests on their head and bone blades on their forearms and elbows (which they reinforced with adamantium and used as combat blades). The Minotaurs were friggin' huge, and the Sons of Antaeus are durable beyond belief. The Flame Falcons were so heavily altered that they burst into flame in battle in a way that did not hurt the astartes, only their enemies.

and yet all of them were still male...

[Fellend]

and yet all of them were still male...

So true.
Still refering back to whatever difference in the genome that exist between men and women might be enough for the geneseed to reject it.

[Denzark]

Fellend: I don't want female Space Marines, so I don't give a crap. But others do, and watching marine players nerdrage so much gives me this warm fuzzy feeling in my heart.



To take pleasure from someone's 'rage' about an issue with which you admittedly don't give a crap is sort of sick. I mean it in a mental way not in an American teen 'vernacular for something good' way.

[Sangre]

Warfare: Again, there's no "could if this and that and this and that", that's something that HAS happened. Unlike the acclamations of "NO FEMALE MARINES!", what I cite is actual canon. So you can kindly go find another argument because your current one is an absolute failure-- the justifications for female Astartes already fully exist in the fluff.


Fellend: I don't want female Space Marines, so I don't give a crap. But others do, and watching marine players nerdrage so much gives me this warm fuzzy feeling in my heart.

And if you want evidence?

1: The female genome is not very different from the male genome.
2: The Mechanicus has altered geneseed in the past, on its own or in partnerships with the Inquisition.
3: This has been done on a wide scale AND a small one, from entire foundings to just a few Astartes.

All the facts that one needs to have female Astartes. The normal geneseed may (or may not, given the recent use of "ordinary adolescent" as opposed to male) be incompatible, but that doesn't mean much when the gene-seed has been altered, sometimes drastically-- the Lamenters were cured of the Blood Angels' curse. The Black Dragons had a startling mutation, which formed bone crests on their head and bone blades on their forearms and elbows (which they reinforced with adamantium and used as combat blades). The Minotaurs were friggin' huge, and the Sons of Antaeus are durable beyond belief. The Flame Falcons were so heavily altered that they burst into flame in battle in a way that did not hurt the astartes, only their enemies.

But Index Astartes said no. Explicitly. No.

[Melissia]

Which was an article in white dwarf which was made what, a decade, two decades ago? I think it's accepted that the newer codices supercede the older information, when they say:

"These organs were designed so that they could be implanted into the body of an ordinary adolescent human."

This may come as a surprise to you, but there are also female ordinary adolescent humans, not just male ones.



Denzark: Like you should be one to speak of mental sickness.



and yet all of them were still male...
We don't know all of them, or even if this was the only cursed founding.

[Fellend]

See you are once again avoiding the issue. All we know is that there are males. Thus untill there are proof of anything else, they'll probably be male.

I'd think if there were any female marines they would have been mentioned. As you know suddenly having access to another 50% of the population for recruitment would be a significant boost.

Melissa either come up with something that actually supports your claim other than "they haven't said no" or just drop it

[Aldramelech]

Everybody shut up!

[Polonius]

See you are once again avoiding the issue. All we know is that there are males. Thus untill there are proof of anything else, they'll probably be male.

I'd think if there were any female marines they would have been mentioned. As you know suddenly having access to another 50% of the population for recruitment would be a significant boost.

Melissa either come up with something that actually supports your claim other than "they haven't said no" or just drop it

I think you're trying to make her prove a larger point than she's actually making. My argument, and I think hers as well, is that female marines are not 100% impossible in the 40k universe. We're not saying that they exist, just that it's possible that they exist.

[Sangre]

Which was an article in white dwarf which was made what, a decade, two decades ago? I think it's accepted that the newer codices supercede the older information, when they say:

"These organs were designed so that they could be implanted into the body of an ordinary adolescent human."

This may come as a surprise to you, but there are also female ordinary adolescent humans, not just male ones.



Denzark: Like you should be one to speak of mental sickness.



We don't know all of them, or even if this was the only cursed founding.

It was also made into a series of books, published very recently as well, explicitly stating that it only works on males. "Ordinary adolescent human" is not a contradiction of "Ordinary male adolescent human". So once again, you're wrong, except being you, you won't admit it, because, well, you're a self-aggrandising harpy.

[Aldramelech]

For gods sake, Will a Mod put this out of its misery? Please, Pretty Please?

[Polonius]

It was also made into a series of books, published very recently as well, explicitly stating that it only works on males. "Ordinary adolescent human" is not a contradiction of "Ordinary male adolescent human". So once again, you're wrong, except being you, you won't admit it, because, well, you're a self-aggrandising harpy.

Don't confuse "not as correct as possible" wrong.

A big part of the argument against Female Astartes comes down to a few lines in fluff specifying that it only works on males. Having new fluff that does not include that is at least a little telling.

It also reinforces the idea that making exact claims about 40k background is a weak prospect, given the nature of the beast.

[Warfare]

Warfare: Again, there's no "could if this and that and this and that", that's something that HAS happened. Unlike the acclamations of "NO FEMALE MARINES!", what I cite is actual canon. So you can kindly go find another argument because your current one is an absolute failure-- the justifications for female Astartes already fully exist in the fluff.

No, it doesn't. The only 'evidence' you seem able to bring to the table is that 'it could happen if...'. Your 'evidence' could just as easily be used to justify marine chapters made out of mentally or physically disabled persons (for example); while the possibility of female marines can be explained genetically, it still goes nowhere to explain away the impracticalities of female marines over male marines.

You can't just rely on 'it could happen genetically so it can happen fact' to prove your point.

[Polonius]

Again, I'm not sure what point you think melissa is trying to make. All she seems to be arguing is that the statement "Female space marines are impossible" is not true. I think there are very solid arguments to be made there. She's acknowledged the difficulties and improbabilities.

The anti-FSM crowd seems to think that it's arguing that FSMs are unlikely, but you're really arguing that they're 100% impossible. All Melissa and I are doing is pointing out that they are, in fact, possible. That seems to get twisted into some sort of argument that they do exist, or that they're a great idea, or whatever.

[Denzark]

Not possible as the fluff says screened for male. As per my quote about 18 pages back and repeated in index astartes (as pointed out by sangre I believe). The new issue of the wording 'human' is irrelevent - you can no more say they meant humans of both sexes when they could have easily meant not abhuman ie ratlings, ogryns, (and squats and beastmen and mutants) They might also have meant not alien ie the zygotes can't be used in an eldar or a tau.

As for the nowhere in the fluff does it say they are impossible, nowhere in the fluff does it say that all marines are 100% child molesters. JUST BECAUSE THE FLUFF DOESN'T SAY SOMETHING DOESN'T MAKE THE OPPOSITE TRUE. That is a ridiculous arguement.

Canon remains canon until contradicted by canon not crappy fanfiction. And the use of 'human' does not contradict 'male only'.

[Polonius]

Not possible as the fluff says screened for male. As per my quote about 18 pages back and repeated in index astartes (as pointed out by sangre I believe). The new issue of the wording 'human' is irrelevent - you can no more say they meant humans of both sexes when they could have easily meant not abhuman ie ratlings, ogryns, (and squats and beastmen and mutants) They might also have meant not alien ie the zygotes can't be used in an eldar or a tau.

As for the nowhere in the fluff does it say they are impossible, nowhere in the fluff does it say that all marines are 100% child molesters. JUST BECAUSE THE FLUFF DOESN'T SAY SOMETHING DOESN'T MAKE THE OPPOSITE TRUE. That is a ridiculous arguement.

Canon remains canon until contradicted by canon not crappy fanfiction. And the use of 'human' does not contradict 'male only'.

Am I missing something?

A lack of positive statement (female marines are always impossible) clearly does not make the opposite (that female space exist) true. Congrats, you've disproven the argument nobody is making.

We know from canon that all canon marine chapters use the same process, and that process doesn't work on men. So, having a female company captain for the Dark Angels would be a colossal stretch.

That said, there are other sources of space marines, and other sources of tech. Imagine this: A space marine chapter is investigated by the inquisition, and rather than risk being exterminated goes renegade, and flees to the ghost worlds. There, they are cut off from the imperium by warp storms, and so settle in a cluster of worlds. there, they find a human planet that mutated reverse sexual dimorphism, with larger, stronger females that do the fighting. Using archeotech to modify either the females DNA or the gene seed process, they induct the best warriors available. The process, however, leads to instability, costing the new recruits the normally long Space Marine life.

[Denzark]

Why would I imagine that? 40K with its canon sources saying space marines are males is quite sufficient thank you, to think otherwise would be plainly stupid. Is the sandbox not big enough, what benefit does trying to change things bring?



Next you'll be wanting James Bond to be female, or even American.

[Polonius]

Why would I imagine that? 40K with its canon sources saying space marines are males is quite sufficient thank you, to think otherwise would be plainly stupid. Is the sandbox not big enough, what benefit does trying to change things bring?

I think we've reached a point where there isn't really discourse here. I was probably around the time you called any attempt at female marines plainly stupid.




Next you'll be wanting James Bond to be female, or even American.

Wow, somebody went to the Rex Kwan Do school of arguing on the internet. Look at the slippery slope!

[Sangre]

But Index Astartes says no. This stands. You will not find it said anywhere that women can be Space Marines, You will find it said in official GW material that only men can be Space Marines. This material has not been superseded, in fact, it has survived the transition from WD article to Black Library printing.

[Polonius]

I'm new here, and I don't want to pick a fight or anything, but it's hard for me to tell if I'm not making my point clearly, or if my point is simply being ignored.

IA, and in fact nearly all Marine fluff, is canon, but that canon is for a defined set: those marines that are created in the way laid down by the emperor. We know, from canon, that Fabius Bile has tried his hand at creating new "marines." We know that warp travel can cause odd mutations. We know that gene seeds can destabilize. We know that powerful archeo and xeno tech lay beyond the astronomicon.

With all of that, it's not completely unreasonable to see marines, or something very close to marines, be created using either a heavily modified, or completely different process than that laid out in IA.

On a completely different tangent, there are chapters whose gene seed turns them into werewolves, or vampires. Why couldn't a chapters gene seed mutate so that initiates get a free sex change with the process? It wouldn't last long before having to go renegade, but it's not out of the realm of possiblity.

In many ways, it's similar to newtonian physics. They're always correct, except for at relativistic speeds (or more correctly, the ways in which they are incorrect tend to net out to zero expect for very small amounts of matter). The IA fluff covers all the known marines, but there is plenty of room for other kinds.

[Melissia]

Okay, I've had my fun. Time to skedaddle.

[Dark_Templar]

Seriously, things are only canon for as long as GW wants them to be. Alternatively you can consider the many conspiracy theories surrounding how much of the background has been changed by the Imperium for the sake of their own agendas.

All in all, I say do what the hell you want. If you want your marines to have strap-on bolters, ala Sex-Machine from Dusk Till Dawn, then so be it. As far as I am concerned, this is a hobby that involves a lot of money, and when you are forking out your hard earned cash, you can do what the hell you want with your models, provided you enjoy it.

This thread just proves that so many people out there are closed-minded and have no interest in expanding their capacity for alternate explanations.

DT

[Old_Paladin]

This thread just proves that so many people out there are closed-minded and have no interest in expanding their capacity for alternate explanations.
DT

I think you've missed the point as well.
Most of us have actually said, "We don't care if you do it on the table-top; it's your army, do what you want. However, just because you want to do it as a hobby aspect, don't try to shove it down my throat that it's totally legit and canon."

Orange orks are fun to look at, orange orks are not canon though.

[Melissia]

Just like any DIY chapter is against the fluff, but the difference is that unlike other DIY chapters, people constantly attack-- verbally and often viciously-- players whom have female Astartes armies, even if they're wonderfully converted and the fluff is intelligently written. Including people on this forum and on the BoSL. There's tons of horror stories out there of people whom were verbally bashed because they were curious about starting such an army.

[Old_Paladin]

Just like any DIY chapter is against the fluff, but the difference is that unlike other DIY chapters, people constantly attack-- verbally and often viciously-- players whom have female Astartes armies, even if they're wonderfully converted and the fluff is intelligently written. Including people on this forum and on the BoSL. There's tons of horror stories out there of people whom were verbally bashed because they were curious about starting such an army.

The irony is that DIY chapters ARE supported by canon (both the fluff and GW); as there are only something like 170-odd chapters named in official fluff out of the 1000 active chapters.
Realistically no one should be allowed to play Ultramarines; if you took all the players that have Ultra's, the chapter probably has hundreds of battle companys. In fact, there's was a webcomic about an imperial assassine that would ask every marine they say what chapter they belonged to, and if the said Ultramarines the assassine would shoot them (to keep the numbers closer to the proper 1000 battle-brothers, as there just seemed to be too many boys-n-blue running around).

Some aspects of the fluff seem very controdctory if you try to do whatever you want: female marines, eldar worshipping Slaneesh (and yes, I've seen someone say that what the new Dark Eldar should get is the option to have marks of slanessh and daemonettes), necrons that are hard to paint... (that's a joke btw).

[Subject Keyword]

DIE! JUST MOTHER****ING DIE!

Please... Kill this thread...

I no longer care if ladies get to join the manly club of ultra manly manliness!!!
Who would want to be a marine anyway!?!?

THEY CHOP YA' JUBBLIES OFF!!!!!!!!!

[Dark_Templar]

I think you've missed the point as well.
Most of us have actually said, "We don't care if you do it on the table-top; it's your army, do what you want. However, just because you want to do it as a hobby aspect, don't try to shove it down my throat that it's totally legit and canon."

Orange orks are fun to look at, orange orks are not canon though.

But canon is not a fixed, linear thing. It is in a constant state of flux, completely changeable at GWs slightest whim.

I don't believe people are trying to shove anything down anybody's throats, it is a simple case of wanting to have freedom to express their creativity and also the freedom to find a place in the 40k universe for their army. Feel free to say I am wrong, that is ok, my point is that GW can decide at any moment whether female marines are ok, and the freedom of fan fiction allows for you to do these things.

Also, I am sure that you could come up with a reason for orange orks.

Just because they are not seen on a daily basis in a warzone, does not mean these things do not exist. You can have daemons spreading disease and decay, you can have an Avatar of Khaine on the battlefield, but an orange ork is completely impossible?

Right....

Edit: I agree, kill this thing. It has turned into a general argument over the validity of canon and 20 year old fluff.

[Duke]

Seriously somebody end this thread... Mods? This thread has had the same 3-4 people posting the same arguments for 20 pages!

Death to the FSM thread!

[Old_Paladin]

I guess it depends on your views.

I'm totally open from the hobby side, but canon is different.
Canon only tells us what is, not what could be possible. If it isn't stated dirrectly, it's not canon.

That's be like a christian sect saying "Jesus could fly!" because the bible never said he didn't, and he did do amazing things. {* I am NOT trying to make any kind of religous statement one way or the other; I simply feel it is just an easily understood example of canon}.

But yes, GW has shown that their fluff is not written in stone; anything can change if they want it too (Codex Daemons proved that).

Edit: yeah, this can be locked.
Heck, it sucked me back in after I left it alone for 20 pages.

[Dark_Templar]

Damn, the only reason I went to church was because I thought Jesus could fly...way to ruin a guys dreams.

Seriously though, I see where you are coming from. It's all about people trying to fit a square plug into a round hole. Sometimes if we push hard enough, we can squeeze it in. But sometimes our pink marines with rainbow ammunition just cannot be fit into the fluff, no matter how many conspiracy theories and hidden primarchs we mention.

[Denzark]

Damn, the only reason I went to church was because I thought Jesus could fly...way to ruin a guys dreams.

Seriously though, I see where you are coming from. It's all about people trying to fit a square plug into a round hole. Sometimes if we push hard enough, we can squeeze it in. But sometimes our pink marines with rainbow ammunition just cannot be fit into the fluff, no matter how many conspiracy theories and hidden primarchs we mention.

I agree DT. And your previous point about GW changing canon on a whim is relevant too, as they have done no such thing to date with regards to the sex of marines...

[Melissia]

Or have they? Recent fluff is more ambiguous.



edit: Yes, I am an incurable troll.

[Duke Rich]

Do you think if GW made a chapter of Female Space Marines more ladies would play?

Alternately if a line of female IG models or regiment was produced would that encourage more female players?

I know the sisters are around, and yes they are very cool, but sadly I never see them.

Just buy either High Elves or Eldar.

[Sangre]

Or have they? Recent fluff is more ambiguous.



edit: Yes, I am an incurable troll.

No they haven't, it isn't more ambiguous.

I thought you skedaddled, self-proclaimed incurable troll comrade.

[Gotthammer]

If it actually says "Any normal adolescent human" in those exact words then that's fair enough.

Just sayin' ;)

[Sangre]

Just sayin' ;)

But it doesn't. It says "A normal adolescent human" in a way that implies that the important thing is the genetic normalcy, not gender.

[Aldramelech]

When have you ever met "A normal adolescent human"?????????????????

[Gotthammer]

But it doesn't. It says "A normal adolescent human" in a way that implies that the important thing is the genetic normalcy, not gender.

Soooo... you are or aren't agreeing with Melissia and I? Because that's our point right there.



When have you ever met "A normal adolescent human"?????????????????


Ha ha, well played sir! That would explain the historically low recruitment rate.

[Cryl]

When have you ever met "A normal adolescent human"?????????????????

It's a good point and well made :)

[Sangre]

Soooo... you are or aren't agreeing with Melissia and I? Because that's our point right there.

Aside from the fact that I disagree with Melissia on principle, I'm just saying it's a load of bollocks to assume that one lazily-worded sentence disagrees with a emphatic denial and overrules it just because it was written later.

[B_Steele]

i'm just saying it's a load of bollocks to assume that one lazily-worded sentence disagrees with a emphatic denial and overrules it just because it was written later.

qft

[Melissia]

There's no truth there to quote, only opinion. And we know what those smell like.

[Sangre]

There's no truth there to quote, only opinion. And we know what those smell like.

I know your opinion ++CENSORED BY THE INQUISITION++ because you're quite good at being self-righteous AND outrageously wrong at the same time.

[Melissia]

So hostile! Did I push the wrong button somewhere?

[Bigred]

Everybody, this thread is now reguarly causing issues. Any further complaints arrising from it will close it down.

[Tyrsday]

Everybody, this thread is now reguarly causing issues. Any further complaints arrising from it will close it down.
"Ban it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

[Dark_Templar]

How long does an exterminatus request take to be processed on a forum thread in 40000 years?

[Faultie]

Everybody, this thread is now reguarly causing issues. Any further complaints arrising from it will close it down.

I would like to lodge a complaint.

[Jwolf]

I would like to lodge a complaint.

Set course for Alderaan...

[Cryl]

Set course for Alderaan...

Is it too early for a "that's no moon!" joke?

[Denzark]

Hell Yeah! I have a complaint! There is some detail missing here...

1. What 'issues' was this tread causing - is the sheer 46 pages of cack too much for the server? Is the server glitching every tiime someone posts 'female marine' as this clearly doesn't compute? Issues? What do we need, some ritalin and some funny counselling stuff????

2. Any MORE complaints and it will be closed down? Surely the odd request (about 8 pages 3 pages ago) to burn it in cleansing hellfire will suffice? If not: "Hello 0 this is Y31C, Fire Mission, Over..."

3. That damned Inquisition...Sangre used some cutting sarcasm, the lowest form of wit but highest form of intelligence and they censor it! Fascist Junta!

4. Your swearing filter doesn't work. The contraction of national Socialist as in Adolf's party, is blanked out. Sangre used the term Bollocks quite freely. Bollocks is a colloquialism for testicles, and means utter codswallop.

...And to finish by talking about Bollocks is quite appropriate...seeing as all Marines have a pair...As they are all male...:D

[Stormlord Aeirling]

Bollocks isn't really a very vile swear word. i doubt we will all faint and die from hearing it.

And i think some of the hostility here should just be toned down a little bit, especially you, sangre.

Now, lets grow up and have a logical and reasonable discussion.

[Denzark]

Bollocks isn't really a very vile swear word. i doubt we will all faint and die from hearing it.

And i think some of the hostility here should just be toned down a little bit, especially you, sangre.

Now, lets grow up and have a logical and reasonable discussion.

Sorry - I never said it was vile merely that it is swearing (at least the Memsahib hits me when i say it in front of young Master Denzark). Unlike obviously, the C-bomb. And NAAAZI isn't swearing and is always blocked even if talked about in historical context. Which is stupid as to hide a word is to give it some power, a la VOLDEMORT.

And I thank you, Sangre's Mum, for giving us your opinion on who should grow up. But the logic here is being ignored.

[Old_Paladin]

"Ban it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

You don't have that kind of authority; you're just a Marine... no offence!

[Aldramelech]

Sorry - I never said it was vile merely that it is swearing (at least the Memsahib hits me when i say it in front of young Master Denzark). Unlike obviously, the C-bomb. And NAAAZI isn't swearing and is always blocked even if talked about in historical context. Which is stupid as to hide a word is to give it some power, a la VOLDEMORT.

And I thank you, Sangre's Mum, for giving us your opinion on who should grow up. But the logic here is being ignored.

Thats my fault.

I took great exception to being called the "N" word because I think people should paint their models. Its banned in the context of being an insult, and from where I sit, not a very nice one.

[Sangre]

Bollocks isn't really a very vile swear word. i doubt we will all faint and die from hearing it.

And i think some of the hostility here should just be toned down a little bit, especially you, sangre.

Now, lets grow up and have a logical and reasonable discussion.

So who died and made you king of maturity?

[Faultie]

So who died and made you king of maturity?

Nicholas IV, High King of Maturia. It was all over the news, man. Didn't you see it?

[Sangre]

Maturia? Isn't that in Switzerland?

[Faultie]

Maturia? Isn't that in Switzerland?

Close. It's actually in Bhutan. :p

[Denzark]

Thats my fault.

I took great exception to being called the "N" word because I think people should paint their models. Its banned in the context of being an insult, and from where I sit, not a very nice one.

Oh I see all now! Fair one as an insult, and as an actuality - I'm with you and Doctor Jones on this one...just didn't know from whence it stemmed.

[MVBrandt]

I heard from your mom that Maturia was close to Uranus. Just like your face.

AND NO, that's NOT what she said.

[BuFFo]

Thats my fault.

I took great exception to being called the "N" word because I think people should paint their models. Its banned in the context of being an insult, and from where I sit, not a very nice one.

Simply ridiculous.

Oh no, now its time to ban ridiculous, huh?

[Duke]

No, just ban this thread!

Duke

[Subject Keyword]

If we just make the thread about something else that is totally vile, the mods will kill it!

Let's talk about having sex with dead puppies.

[Aldramelech]

Simply ridiculous.

Oh no, now its time to ban ridiculous, huh?

Thats your opinion and your entitled to it. Yes entitled. You wouldn't have been if the Germans have won.

I take great exception to being labeled with the name of people who killed, tortured, raped and experimented on millions of Innocent men, woman and children. Yes, if thats not graphic enough, they enjoyed murdering children, got that stuck in your mind as an image?

That might not mean anything to you, but you'd better believe it damn well does to me!

Grow up.

[Stormlord Aeirling]

So who died and made you king of maturity?


I'm not the one who threw a big screaming fit because i was out argued by melissa.

[MVBrandt]

I'm not the one who threw a big screaming fit because i was out argued by melissa.

This thread grew too long to read ... but ... how the hell does that even happen?

[Stormlord Aeirling]

I know your opinion ++CENSORED BY THE INQUISITION++ because you're quite good at being self-righteous AND outrageously wrong at the same time.

like this

[Duke]

I'm not the one who threw a big screaming fit because i was out argued by melissa.

He wasn't out argued, he was out stubborned. I never saw a convincing argument come out of that whole thing, just a bunch of "Im more stubbron than you are." (And the occasional sticking out of the tounge)

Duke

[Stormlord Aeirling]

same difference, he still shouldn't have lost his temper so violently. It makes it really difficult for civilized discussion to take place.

[Sangre]

same difference, he still shouldn't have lost his temper so violently. It makes it really difficult for civilized discussion to take place.

I never claimed to be civilised. Just amusing. And charismatic and dashing and handsome.

[Nabterayl]

The argument just turns on the premises whose discussion gets buried in the nerdrage and the name calling. If you sift through this thread I think what it boils down to is this:
No GW source references a female warrior with physical and mental profiles equivalent to those of the Adeptus Astartes.
No recorded source in the Imperium knows how to make female warriors with physical and mental profiles equivalent to those of the Adeptus Astartes.
No GW source states that nobody ever could make female warriors with physical and mental profiles equivalent to those of the Adeptus Astartes.
I think any reasonable student of fluff has to acknowledge that all three of those statements are true. If you focus on 1 and 2, you come out on the "female space marines aren't canon" side of the argument. If you focus on 3, you come out on the "female space marines don't contradict canon" side of the argument, or possibly on its sister side, "female warriors with physical and mental profiles equivalent to those of the Adeptus Astartes don't contradict canon" (depending on how restrictive you want to be in your definition of "space marine").

[Duke]

I never claimed to be civilised. Just amusing. And charismatic and dashing and handsome.

I used to say that, but then I realised it is just easier to say the truth and call my self perfect.

Duke

[MVBrandt]

The argument just turns on the premises whose discussion gets buried in the nerdrage and the name calling. If you sift through this thread I think what it boils down to is this:
No GW source references a female warrior with physical and mental profiles equivalent to those of the Adeptus Astartes.
No recorded source in the Imperium knows how to make female warriors with physical and mental profiles equivalent to those of the Adeptus Astartes.
No GW source states that nobody ever could make female warriors with physical and mental profiles equivalent to those of the Adeptus Astartes.
I think any reasonable student of fluff has to acknowledge that all three of those statements are true. If you focus on 1 and 2, you come out on the "female space marines aren't canon" side of the argument. If you focus on 3, you come out on the "female space marines don't contradict canon" side of the argument, or possibly on its sister side, "female warriors with physical and mental profiles equivalent to those of the Adeptus Astartes don't contradict canon" (depending on how restrictive you want to be in your definition of "space marine").

Sensible and reasonable. I think the fluff is flexible enough that you can do whatever you want, honestly. Just be prepared for people to criticize it if you utilize really crappy fluff as a background ...

I'll be busy building Waaaagh! Biomek for the new Nid dex, coming soon to an Octavius system near you!

[Stormlord Aeirling]

I never claimed to be civilised. Just amusing. And charismatic and dashing and handsome.

I can't stand it when people interrupt debates with obsceneties and ranting about the person they are debating with.

[Lerra]

It seems that many of us are agreeing but still arguing over semantics. I see fluff in three categories:

A. Official canon
B. DIY background that can coexist with the official fluff
C. Flatly contradicts the official fluff

I don't think anyone is arguing that female space marines are in category A. Female marines can fit into category B when they are well thought out, especially non-loyalist marines. Category C would be something like female Ultramarines. GW has stated that all members of the known space marines chapters are male because the Imperium cannot, at this time, make female space marines. That is a strong limitation, but there are ways around it that don't stomp all over the fluff if you are creative.

Personally, I don't mind playing against Category C armies (The best necron armies I've seen are completely heretical), but I don't mind if others won't play with those people. I just ask people to be consistent. If Joe happily plays against Steampunk Necrons and Chaos Tau, but then objects to properly done female space marines, there is more going on than his disapproval of unfluffy armies. That's why this issue is so potent.

Especially when Joe follows up with an argument about how women shouldn't fight because they should be at home making babies; how female space marines should be S2 and T2 because women aren't meant for combat; how there are no women gamers, only sexually loose women who like attention; how women are too intellectually weak to play 40k; how women are not productive members of society and could never carry their share in an army (These are all things I have heard out in the real world *sigh*).

[Sangre]

I can't stand it when people interrupt debates with obsceneties and ranting about the person they are debating with.

I can't stand people who wade in after it's done and put on their "Holier than thou" hat.

After all, that's MY hat.

[Melissia]

As amusing as this... discussion... is, Shouldn't we at least attempt to stay on topic? Sure, we want the thread closed, but that's no reason to spam it...




Nabterayl: That's a fairly good point. How exactly do you define an Adeptus Astartes? I don't see gender as a necessary requirement-- the Astartes no longer have a gender as far as I'm concerned, they lose it when they become Astartes, as they no longer qualify even genetically as a male of the Homo Sapiens Sapiens species*, instead forming their own species (Which I've taken to call Homo Sapiens Astartes) which reproduces asexually through the use of the progenoid gland.


*(which goes further than a eunuch-- a eunuch would qualify genetically as a male, regardless of which definition of eunuch you use)

[Old_Paladin]

As amusingI don't see gender as a necessary requirement-- the Astartes no longer have a gender as far as I'm concerned, they lose it when they become Astartes, as they no longer qualify even genetically as a male of the Homo Sapiens Sapiens species*, instead forming their own species (Which I've taken to call Homo Sapiens Astartes) which reproduces asexually through the use of the progenoid gland.


*(which goes further than a eunuch-- a eunuch would qualify genetically as a male, regardless of which definition of eunuch you use)

This is just semantics (as I totally understand what you're getting at), but I think you mean Astartes are sexless.

Gender tends to refer to an overall state of identity, while sex refers to biology. Marines probably think of themselves as masculine; meaning they are still of the male gender, even if they are no longer "men".

[Melissia]

I don't even think that they care about masculinity as much as they do winning battles and becoming better at winning battles. Certainly, I don't see Marines depicted (outside of crappy fanfiction) as macho men and other kidns of male idiocy, but as the ideal soldiers, the attributes of which are gender neutral in 40k (regardless of anyone's opinion of how it is IRL, this is science fiction).

[Duke]

Leave it to you to make Space Marines heretical Xenos.

Duke

[Melissia]

No more xenos than ratlings and ogryns.

[MVBrandt]

This is a little absurd. There are no female Astartes in the fluff. This does not rule them out, because there's nowhere in the fluff to my knowledge that states there CANNOT be female Astartes.

That said, male Astartes are genetically neutered, not physically neutered. As a result, they retain all of their reproductive organs, and their original "members." While it's argumentatively sound to suggest they retain no gender / masculinity, such a suggestion is absurdly pedantic.

While I know that pedantic may be your middle name, and your reaction or opinion is of little consequence to me, it may serve your "I like to argue!!!1111" self-definition better were you to refrain from such a dive. Just as eunuchs are still men by all definitions (i.e. a spayed female is not a "eunuch" by definition), genetically castrated marines still sporting wangs are 100% men by all definitions, and therefore by definition masculine.

There's no legitimate argument to be found in the question of whether female Astartes are within the realm of possibility, as the fluff doesn't explicitly prohibit it to my knowledge (though it may, I make no claim to 100% knowledge). In fact, one could argue there are female Astartes, since at least one person on this planet has modeled them, thereby bringing them more into existence than the fluff could ever arrive at ... since the fluff is simply fiction, and toy soldiers are actually real, tangible things.

But can we please not have the pedantry of "OMG DEY AREN'T TECHNIKULLY HUMAN BEEINGZ EVEN NEMORE!!1" It's the kind of commentary that you'll look back on by chance in 3 years and be embarassed by.

[Melissia]

You may care more about the models, but I don't. To me the hobby section is no more than a speedbump that prevents me from properly enjoying the game, and the game itself is only one of the many methods thorugh which I enjoy what really matters about 40k-- the background. The fluff, the story, what have you, is the core behind 40k for me, and always has been. And so that is what my arguments focus around. If all that matters to you is whether or not someone has modeled something, then why the hell are you even IN this thread?

It's like someone coming along in a tactics thread which are debating whether one setup is better than another, and saying "hurr, mah spess muhreenz r betr tan ur spess muhreenz cuz dey blu n yelo!"

[Lerra]

Are you sure that they retain their reproductive organs? I remember reading somewhere that they were removed, as space marines would have no use for them.

If you were to use modern biological definitions on the fluff (kind of silly, I know), ratlings, ogryns, and space marines are all different species. Ratlings and Ogyrns would both be genus homo (the same as humans) but space marines would be in a completely different classification (mostly because of their asexual reproduction). Technically space marines aren't even mammals, by definition.

[MVBrandt]

You may care more about the models, but I don't. To me the hobby section is no more than a speedbump that prevents me from properly enjoying the game, and the game itself is only one of the many methods thorugh which I enjoy what really matters about 40k-- the background. The fluff, the story, what have you, is the core behind 40k for me, and always has been. And so that is what my arguments focus around. If all that matters to you is whether or not someone has modeled something, then why the hell are you even IN this thread?

It's like someone coming along in a tactics thread which are debating whether one setup is better than another, and saying "hurr, mah spess muhreenz r betr tan ur spess muhreenz cuz dey blu n yelo!"

This is a pretty fail reply. Think critically before you type, instead of trying to do it as you type. The 40k fluff is neither firmly defined across its breadth, nor "real." If someone models an army of female astartes, they're quite real, even if some individuals disagree with them on fluff grounds. Arguments in support of them can just as easily and readily be made. The length and absurdity of this thread rather proves it.

[Nabterayl]

Nabterayl: That's a fairly good point. How exactly do you define an Adeptus Astartes?
I define Adeptus Astartes as a space marine who belongs to an overarching military formation that in turn (i) swears loyalty to the Emperor or (ii) is recognized by the Adeptus Terra as subordinate to the Adeptus Terra.

I define space marine as a warrior who (i) is de facto politically independent of any organization larger than his overarching military formation (e.g., his chapter or his warband) and (ii) possesses a material portion of the advantages conferred by the organs known to the Imperium as the Secondary Heart, Ossmodula, Biscopea, Haemastamen, Larraman's Organ, Catalepsean Node, Preomnor, Omophagea, Multi-lung, Occulobe, Lyman's Ear, Sus-an Membrane, Melanochrome, Oolitic Kidney, Neuroglottis, Mucranoid, Betcher's Gland, Progenoids, and Black Carapace.

I think this definition accounts for "Chaos space marines" (who I define as "space marines" even though I don't define them as "Adeptus Astartes"), as well as the deficiencies in the various Adeptus Astartes geneseed lines (e.g., Imperial Fists are still "space marines" even though they don't have the Sus-an Membrane or Betcher's Gland). I note, specifically, that in my mind (i) no one symbiote is necessary to qualify as a "space marine" (not even the Black Carapace - a naked Ultramarine is still a space marine, even though he is not gaining any benefit from his Black Carapace at the moment), (ii) it isn't important whether you have actual Adeptus Astartes symbiotes so long as you have equivalent functionality, and (iii) the psychosurgical alterations and conditioning given to Adeptus Astartes are not necessary to qualify as as a "space marine" (otherwise "Chaos space marine" would be a misnomer). Gender is not a definitional requirement, in my mind, even though it happens to preclude many scenarios, given the state of Imperial science.


as they no longer qualify even genetically as a male of the Homo Sapiens Sapiens species*, instead forming their own species (Which I've taken to call Homo Sapiens Astartes) which reproduces asexually through the use of the progenoid gland.
I'm not actually clear on how, if at all, Adeptus Astartes and/or space marines are genetically different from homo sapiens. I know that they're frequently referred to as "genetically engineered," but the entire creation of a space marine (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine) process is surgical, therapeutic, and mental in nature. Maybe the symbiotes themselves are genetically engineered, but so far as I know we have no descriptions of a space marine's DNA being tinkered with. To me they seem more akin to cyborgs, except that instead of mechanical and electronic additions they have vat-grown additions. The very description of symbiotes as "symbiotes" suggests to me that, if took a tissue sample from anywhere in a space marine's body other than a symbiote, its DNA would be human.

[Melissia]

Nab: I don't know, I recall them referred to at one time as genetic implants, which would hint that they alter the genetic code of the Astartes. Mind you, GW is nothing if not ignorant of science-- especially biology-- in the first place, so it could be all of the above for all we know.


[a post]
I await your posting something that is remotely relevant to my post You know, something that actually matters.

[MVBrandt]

I am sure that in your head, cowering from an argument equates to a burn.

[Melissia]

I'm not cowering from your argument. I'm saying your argument is completely irrelevant, if it indeed can even be called an argument..

You just proclaimed that my post is fail (without any reason for it), posted some BS that you obviously don't follow yourself, proclaimed the fluff to not be real (no ****, really? I better tell my local techpriest that!), said that the models are real (huh, I thought they were just in my imagination), then complained about the length of the thread.

All of this is irrelevant at best. It doesn't matter one iota that the fluff is fiction. And it doesn't matter one bit whether or not someone models something. Someone could carve a Marine model out of a dog turd, doesn't mean that there are actual Marines in the fluff that are made of dog turds.

[MVBrandt]

I will attempt to once again reiterate the point, I'll make it super clear this time.

1) I agree with Nab's earlier post delineating 3 key points
2) Your comments relating to marines no longer having a gender / sex are absurd, wrong, and ... well, completely ignoring the fact that they still have ... male parts. Neutered =/= not being a man.
3) The fluff is not concrete enough on the question to allow OR deny marines, which means it's up to the imagination, not the fluff
4) There are "real" female astartes out there

#4 is tied to #3
I will attempt to make any argument toward you in the future as independent, non-correlated parts, *OR* will explicitly connect them, since that seems to not be a strong point of yours in the reading comprehension department. K?


Now, that all said, my only real disagreement with you on points as far as I can tell is the pedantry of "OMG DEY AREN'T BOYZ NEMOAR."

[Melissia]

Hey look, you actually made an intelligent post. Now if only you had done this in the first place we'd have avoided all of this wouldn't we?

Whether or not the fluff is concrete enough, that doesn't mean everything that you imagine actually does exist in the fluff. Nor does it matter whether or not models exist. The model exists, but you can model ANYTHING. One could model titan that looks like some japanese tentacle monster with a thousand penises, doesn't mean it exists in 40k (Slaanesh notwithstanding). One could create an army of jedi, doesn't mean that the crossover is actually in the fluff. One could bring in their Battletech models, doesn't mean that the Imperium now has to fight off an invasion from the Clans or the Draconis Combine. I have a Terminator action figure that I can use as a Necron model, does that mean that there must be a gigantic Necron the size of titans?

No. Because the models are irrelevant. They're only "real" in the sense that they physically exist. They aren't real in the background of 40k, which is what actually matters in this debate.

[Faultie]

Whether or not the fluff is concrete enough, that doesn't mean everything that you imagine actually does exist in the fluff...
There you have it, folks. Melissia's argument against female space marines.

:D
*ducks out of thread*

[Melissia]

lol, troll . Nor does it mean that it doesn't exist.

[Faultie]

*ducks back in*
But it could!
*runs off to grab Legos, battlemechs, and Terminator toys*

[Jwolf]

I would close this thread, but you'd just start poking each other in other threads more. And this one is at least amusing one comment out of every 3-4 pages.

[Stormlord Aeirling]

I can't stand people who wade in after it's done and put on their "Holier than thou" hat.

After all, that's MY hat.


I reserve the right to speak my mind whenever i want, whether you like it or not.

As for the topic at hand, i have quick question to pose, what's the harm in just saying "While there doesn't appear to be any female marines in the codex, it doesn't mean there can't be some fanmade space marine chapters that are female based"

i mean, honestly, i don't see why so many of you are throwing a huge fit about the idea. There are female tau, female eldar, adepta soriatas, and occasionally female guard, so why have the big "Nooooo, there can't be any female marines, nooooo!!!!!" argument.

[Denzark]

No GW source states that nobody ever could make female warriors with physical and mental profiles equivalent to those of the Adeptus Astartes.[/list]
I think any reasonable student of fluff has to acknowledge that all three of those statements are true. If you focus on 1 and 2, you come out on the "female space marines aren't canon" side of the argument. If you focus on 3, you come out on the "female space marines don't contradict canon" side of the argument, or possibly on its sister side, "female warriors with physical and mental profiles equivalent to those of the Adeptus Astartes don't contradict canon" (depending on how restrictive you want to be in your definition of "space marine").

Nabby I agree with your point 3 - no GW fluff says nobody could ever make blah blah equivalent. However the title of the thread is female space marines. Not equivalent, but actual Space Marines. So you have to be restrictive with your definition. And that would contradict un-replaced, extant canon - "They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types..." Zygotes are what makes marines marines, the same canon explains the organs are called zygotes.

I agree there could quite easily be female equivalents to space marines. They would not be space marines.

@ Lerra because of this female space marines would only fall into your category c - contradicts fluff.

[Denzark]

I define Adeptus Astartes as a space marine who belongs to an overarching military formation that in turn (i) swears loyalty to the Emperor or (ii) is recognized by the Adeptus Terra as subordinate to the Adeptus Terra.

I note, specifically, that in my mind (i) no one symbiote is necessary to qualify as a "space marine" (not even the Black Carapace - a naked Ultramarine is still a space marine, even though he is not gaining any benefit from his Black Carapace at the moment),

"As well as mutant implants, many chapters have lost one or more types of geneseed due to accident, genetic failure or some other cause. Very few chapters therefore possess all nineteen implants. ALL POSSESS THE CARAPACE IMPLANT (PHASE 19). IT IS THIS IMPLANT WHICH MARKS A SPACE MARINE FOR WHAT HE (Yes the text says he) IS - IRRSPECTIVE OF OTHER IMPLANTS, TRAINING OR PSYCHO SURGERY"

W40K Compendium. If you can find me something by GW that says this (particualr piece) has been replaced and by what, I will acknowledge it is no longer canon.

[Nabterayl]

As for the topic at hand, i have quick question to pose, what's the harm in just saying "While there doesn't appear to be any female marines in the codex, it doesn't mean there can't be some fanmade space marine chapters that are female based"

i mean, honestly, i don't see why so many of you are throwing a huge fit about the idea. There are female tau, female eldar, adepta soriatas, and occasionally female guard, so why have the big "Nooooo, there can't be any female marines, nooooo!!!!!" argument.
I propose two reasons. One, how people decide to use the term "canon." For example, suppose I say:


The canon supports my 459th Cadian Shock Troops regiment.

If by "canon supports" we mean "the 459th Cadian has appeared in official GW material," then my statement is false. If instead we mean, "the existence of the 459th Cadian does not contradict any official GW material," then my statement is true.

But of course we must mean more than that. Otherwise, it would be a true statement to say, "The canon supports the existence of Captain Jack Sparrow marooned on Ultramar." No GW material says that Captain Jack Sparrow isn't marooned on Ultramar. No GW material makes it logically impossible for Captain Jack Sparrow to be marooned on Ultramar. Yet I think most of us would agree that the canon does not support Captain Jack Sparrow being marooned on Ultramar.

Why?

Because our standard is higher than "does not contradict any official GW material." The standard most of us are really using is, "does not contradict any official GW material and is line with the overall look and feel of the existing GW material." It is in this sense that the canon "does not support" Captain Jack Sparrow being marooned on Ultramar, or Pretty Marines.

And it is by this standard that some people feel female "space marines" (in quotes because I'm using my previously mentioned definition of "space marine") fall short of canon. Now of course, whether or not female "space marines" are out of line with the overall look and feel of the existing GW material depends on the person's conception of the overall look and feel of the existing GW material, particularly as applied to space marines. I think that people tend to get very attached to their conception of the overall look and feel of space marines - the nerdrage that this topic can generate is proof, to me, that GW's marketing folks are right on the money when they say that space marines are at the very heart of 40K. Whether you like space marines or not, whether you admire them or not, whether you play them or not, your conception of space marines is likely to be tied up with your conception of 40K as a whole. For that reason, space marines that fly in the face of your conception of existing space marine material tends to attack not just your conception of space marines, but your conception of the entire universe you know and love. That's my first suggestion.

Two, we're all fanboyz (orky spelling used to indicate gender neutrality) - we all pride ourselves on being able to figure out what is "canon" in environments like this one where the "facts of the matter" are obscured in a quasi-historical way. We pride ourselves on our ability to sift through a hundred novels, fifty periodicals, thirty sourcebooks, and a dozen editions of the game to produce a single construct that our mind can identify as the "real" 40K. Relishing that process is one of the things that defines us as fanboyz. And we like to think, privately, that nobody else is quite as good at that process as we are.

Disagreements over whether female "space marines" are "canon" boil down to an exercise in this mental boiling down process, and if the two parties are focusing on the different ways in which female "space marines" are "canon" (see my previous post), it can seem like the two fanboyz come out with wildly different results. Which is tantamount to each of them saying the other is too stupid to sift through a hundred novels, fifty periodicals, thirty sourcebooks, and a dozen editions of the game to produce the correct construct. And fanboyz cannot abide being called stupid.

[Denzark]

"As well as mutant implants, many chapters have lost one or more types of geneseed due to accident, genetic failure or some other cause. Very few chapters therefore possess all nineteen implants. ALL POSSESS THE CARAPACE IMPLANT (PHASE 19). IT IS THIS IMPLANT WHICH MARKS A SPACE MARINE FOR WHAT HE (Yes the text says he) IS - IRRSPECTIVE OF OTHER IMPLANTS, TRAINING OR PSYCHO SURGERY"

W40K Compendium. If you can find me something by GW that says this (particualr piece) has been replaced and by what, I will acknowledge it is no longer canon.

Excuse me quoting myself. As above, the fluff says the black carapace marks a space marine. The carapace is a ZYGOTE. If you look at my last post you will see more fluff saying the zygotes are screened for males only. Not male, no zygotes. No zygotes = no carapace. As per the fluff, no carapace, not a Space Marine.

Go figure.

[Warfare]

i mean, honestly, i don't see why so many of you are throwing a huge fit about the idea. There are female tau, female eldar, adepta soriatas, and occasionally female guard, so why have the big "Nooooo, there can't be any female marines, nooooo!!!!!" argument.
Probably because all the 'races' (for want of a better description) actually have fluff supporting females (I don't know much about Tau). Marines however do not, they just do not explicitly state 'no females'. Furthermore, this is not something taken over a few bits and pieces, there is no reference to female marines in thousands of texts.

In fact, the idea of a female marine goes completely against 'Space Marines' that are depicted and described in fluff. The idea of Space Marines is to have forces created from the best of the best. Men are naturally inclined to physical labour and hardship, females are not: it's not an opinion, it is scientific, biological FACT. There is nothing to debate about on this subject as only a fool would come to the conclusion that in spite of all the effort put into the selection and training of a marine, a chapter would be created or would accept physiologically inferior candidates.

The only way a female could possibly hope to rival a male in this area is through drastic alterations performed BEFORE puberty and I would be very interested to see some evidence that marine chapters look and then alter 10 year-olds when selecting potentials.



Also, it would help if people were actually able to clarify what they are arguing about.
Disregarding established fluff, of course you could create a female marine army.
Regarding fluff, no, you can't rationally justify them.

[Magos]

I reserve the right to speak my mind whenever i want, whether you like it or not.

As for the topic at hand, i have quick question to pose, what's the harm in just saying "While there doesn't appear to be any female marines in the codex, it doesn't mean there can't be some fanmade space marine chapters that are female based"

i mean, honestly, i don't see why so many of you are throwing a huge fit about the idea. There are female tau, female eldar, adepta soriatas, and occasionally female guard, so why have the big "Nooooo, there can't be any female marines, nooooo!!!!!" argument.

Female Eldar-Makes Sense. Howling Banshees, whatever. I dont pay much attention to Eldar really, but their warships are awesome.

Female Tau-Bleh, same argument as above

Adepta Soriatas-I feel that because of them, their is almost zero point in female space marines. Fills the role of women in power armor or whatever the hell people are looking for? (anyone tell me what this thing about female Space Marines started from, Im actually curious, if rather creeped out by some of the models I've seen.)

Female Guard-Extremely Logical. Fluff Points to this. If you need bodies, well, just grab em off the street, doesn't matter what gender it is.

I cant speak for anyone else, nor will I ever make a claim to do so. However, my argument against female Space Marines (and to some extent, the female IG i've seen done) is the following.

-Over Sexualized Imagery for no actual practical purpose. I've seen Female Marine Models with sculpted D size equivalent breasts, which is rather unnecessary for superhuman killing machines. Soritas models, it works, the bodyshape makes sense for the model. Then, in alot of the cases of female marine chapters, you see fluff written for them. Okay so far right?
Wrong?
I read a piece of fluff for the Black Widows Chapter (or something) that involved an Emperors Children marines penis being removed and the said chaos marine tied to a rock or something. With the Black Widows Marines thinking it hilarious, and roughly acting out in such a way that resembled bad anime. Wtf?

I could go on another similar rant about people sculpting female Imperial Guard in Hotpants. Do people ever go online and look at pictures of actual soldiers? Or do they have their nice bubbleworld of female soldiers. Im guessing its the later.

Anyway, for the TL;DR Crowd
-Im bored, thus I wrote a rant
-Female Marines are bad because what people do with them is creepy
-Also they dont make a terrible lot of sense
-I wasted to much time on this post, Im going for coffee now

[Nabterayl]

"As well as mutant implants, many chapters have lost one or more types of geneseed due to accident, genetic failure or some other cause. Very few chapters therefore possess all nineteen implants. ALL POSSESS THE CARAPACE IMPLANT (PHASE 19). IT IS THIS IMPLANT WHICH MARKS A SPACE MARINE FOR WHAT HE (Yes the text says he) IS - IRRSPECTIVE OF OTHER IMPLANTS, TRAINING OR PSYCHO SURGERY"

W40K Compendium. If you can find me something by GW that says this (particualr piece) has been replaced and by what, I will acknowledge it is no longer canon.
I'm aware of that passage, and I didn't mean to denigrate it. Nevertheless, at best, that's GW's definition. My definition doesn't require the black carapace - give me a warrior with functionality equivalent to the other eighteen symbiotes, and I'll happily call that warrior a "space marine." Make their overarching military formation subject to the Adeptus Terra and I'll even call that warrior an Adeptus Astartes, WH40K Compendium notwithstanding.

Building off my post above, the reason I feel that way is because GW has not convinced me that the black carapace is actually an important part of the "look and feel" of a "space marine." Here's a thought experiment: if GW were to come out with material that mentions Grey Knights who have fallen to Chaos, would that bother you? Obviously it's their universe and they can override pre-existing fluff if they want to, but wouldn't that strike you as jarringly out of line with what they've already established the Grey Knights to be?

Now suppose they come out with a space marine chapter that didn't have the black carapace. Would that jar you in the same way? Me, I'd go, "Huh, that's an odd change," but it wouldn't jar me like fallen Grey Knights would. This leads me to conclude that, for me at least, and WH40K Compendium notwithstanding, the black carapace is not a definitional part of a "space marine."


Excuse me quoting myself. As above, the fluff says the black carapace marks a space marine. The carapace is a ZYGOTE. If you look at my last post you will see more fluff saying the zygotes are screened for males only. Not male, no zygotes. No zygotes = no carapace. As per the fluff, no carapace, not a Space Marine.

Go figure.
Can I ask you to be more specific? Is it the black carapace, or the direct neural interface with power armor, that you find necessary to be a "space marine?"


Also, it would help if people were actually able to clarify what they are arguing about.
...
Regarding fluff, no, you can't rationally justify them.
Oh come on, show some consideration. How would you like it if I told you that you can't rationally justify something? We're fanboyz with graduate degrees, man.

[Stormlord Aeirling]

I honestly don't see much merit in the arguments brought against my questions.

I mean, GW often encourages people to be inventive with their fluff and background. So whats the problem with some people having some female space marines in they're chapter? GW says to create your own fluff if you like, in fact, they encourage it.


-Over Sexualized Imagery for no actual practical purpose. I've seen Female Marine Models with sculpted D size equivalent breasts, which is rather unnecessary for superhuman killing machines. Soritas models, it works, the bodyshape makes sense for the model. Then, in alot of the cases of female marine chapters, you see fluff written for them. Okay so far right?
Wrong?
I read a piece of fluff for the Black Widows Chapter (or something) that involved an Emperors Children marines penis being removed and the said chaos marine tied to a rock or something. With the Black Widows Marines thinking it hilarious, and roughly acting out in such a way that resembled bad anime. Wtf?

I could go on another similar rant about people sculpting female Imperial Guard in Hotpants. Do people ever go online and look at pictures of actual soldiers? Or do they have their nice bubbleworld of female soldiers. Im guessing its the later.

Anyway, for the TL;DR Crowd
-Im bored, thus I wrote a rant
-Female Marines are bad because what people do with them is creepy
-Also they dont make a terrible lot of sense
-I wasted to much time on this post, Im going for coffee now

Not all female space marine chapters are creepy or over sexualized. Some are, but those are mostly chaos legions, which are an entirely different thing from imperium marines. (Plus, some people are just sick in the head)



In fact, the idea of a female marine goes completely against 'Space Marines' that are depicted and described in fluff. The idea of Space Marines is to have forces created from the best of the best. Men are naturally inclined to physical labour and hardship, females are not: it's not an opinion, it is scientific, biological FACT. There is nothing to debate about on this subject as only a fool would come to the conclusion that in spite of all the effort put into the selection and training of a marine, a chapter would be created or would accept physiologically inferior candidates.

I've known some pretty tough and strong women in my time. it's sexist and biased and untrue to say all women are psychically inferior to men.

[Rapture]

Now suppose they come out with a space marine chapter that didn't have the black carapace. Would that jar you in the same way? Me, I'd go, "Huh, that's an odd change," but it wouldn't jar me like fallen Grey Knights would. This leads me to conclude that, for me at least, and WH40K Compendium notwithstanding, the black carapace is not a definitional part of a "space marine."

Or suppose a chapter came out that was the size of normal humans, had no special organs, and used lasguns instead of bolters.

Calling a group a 'chapter' doesn't make them space marines. They have to meet certain conditions, one of which is having a black carapace.

[Nabterayl]

I've known some pretty tough and strong women in my time. it's sexist and biased and untrue to say all women are psychically inferior to men.
More to the point, it fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the selection process. Marine chapters do not select based on population statistics. They select individuals. Warfare, what do you think a chaplain would say if a twelve year old girl was one of the most promising recruits he'd seen in centuries? You mean to tell me he'd say, "Sorry kid, you just aren't the best of the best, and that's a biological fact?" I think he'd say, "Damn, kid, I wish like hell the apothecaries could make you a space marine, but they just don't know how. Sorry."

Unless you mean to suggest that a twelve year old girl couldn't ever be one of the most promising recruits he'd seen in centuries?

[Nabterayl]

Or suppose a chapter came out that was the size of normal humans, had no special organs, and used lasguns instead of bolters.

Calling a group a 'chapter' doesn't make them space marines. They have to meet certain conditions, one of which is having a black carapace.
A group like that wouldn't meet my definition of a "space marine." "Had no special organs" pretty much precludes having benefits equivalent to those provided by a material portion of the nineteen canonical symbiotes.

What I hear you and Denzark saying is that a warrior can have all eighteen symbiotes except the black carapace, a geneseed line directly descended from a primarch, and undergo the Adeptus Astartes psychosurgery and indoctrination program, but the resultant warrior would not be a "space marine" to you. If that's your definition of space marine, fine, but I need to see the black carapace actually matter more in fiction before I can take the Compendium that literally.