Why Inquisition Forces should just be optional choices for IG

[Javin]

I like how Inquisition forces complain about codexs and what not. In the big picture of 40K large combat, who cares about them? They are, at best, minor players in the large military scale.

The inquisition co-ops actual military forces to help out when the threat is serious. I think Grey Knights and Sisters should just be another elite/troop/heavy choice for the IG or Marines. Gamewise, that is what they are used for, why not just make them part of the Codexs? GW would not have to create new models or Codexs. Grey Knights and Sisters could use the reduced prices of the IG and Marine codex. Bam problem solved and two less codexs update!

If we are thinking actual threats and large militaries, Necrons, supposedly the largest threat out there (along with Tyranids and Orkz) are the main threats to the Imperium, followed closely by Chaos forces. Since the Sisters and GK's (ok maybe the GK's) fluffwise never fight without help, why not just codify what they really are, just more Imperial choices?

Yes I know I will get flamed but really how many Imperial Codexs are really needed?

[Melissia]

They are, at best, minor players in the large military scale.
Are you talking about the Inquisition, or the Space Marines? That statement could apply to both.

99% of all battles involving the Imperium are fought primarily by the Imperial Guard, and everyone else in the Imperium either helps or hinders them.

[DarkLink]

Right, by your logic, the only Imperial codex should be C:IG. There is less than one SM per Imperial world, hardly enough to take place in many battles.

And if your going by pure size, the Grey Knights have either the largest or second largest SM chapter, next to the Black Templar. While there isn't an exact number for either, they both have roughly 3000-4000 or so Marines, while normal chapters have slightly more than 1000. Space Wolves are up there, too.

Edit: In fact, by your logic, there shouldn't be a Chaos Codex, either, because there are even fewer Chaos Marines than there are Loyalist Marines. And the Tau Empire is minuscule compared to the Imperium, so it probably wouldn't have a codex. And then, how many Eldar and Dark Eldar are left in the galaxy?

[Wolfshade]

I think the big thing is that they are entriely seperate entities, although they all serve the Imperium of Man, including space marines they all have specific traditions/motivations. While it might make sense to have inquisitors as a HQ entry in the imperial guard, they aren't in the guard, they can command it but they aren't part of the structure of the guard, unlike the comissars who while they are outside the normal command structures are part of the guard.

This is also strictly true when looking at GK and SoB. But I think (::warning personal opinion::) the guard operate far more often without inquistion involvement than the GK & SoB especially as Demonhunters Inquistors specialist roles align very strongly with the GKs, similiarly SoB and Witchunting Inquisitors.

Arguably, if Xenohunters came about they would be most strongly aligned with normal guard operations.

[Cryl]

And if your going by pure size, the Grey Knights have either the largest or second largest SM chapter, next to the Black Templar. While there isn't an exact number for either, they both have roughly 3000-4000 or so Marines, while normal chapters have slightly more than 1000. Space Wolves are up there, too.


Really? I'm not saying you're wrong just that I've either never heard this or I've missed the references. I'd always assumed that the GKs were a chapter and hence as limited as a regular chapter in their numbers, more so in recruitment because of the limitations and requirements of the 'job'. This was an assumption and now that I think about it 1000 for an entire galaxy makes even less sense than most things in the 40k universe. Be interested to see any references you can point me at.

[Melissia]

The Grey Knights have 3000+ last I read. You'd want to go over to the BnC's inquisition section to get more details though, I don't play GK and so their specifics I couldn't give sources on, only remembering what I read on that forum.


Also, the vast majority of the actions the Sisters take do not involve the Inquisition. First and foremost, the Sisters of Battle are the army of the Imperial Cult (the Ecclesiarchy, the Imperial Church, etc).

[Bean]

I think the Space Wolves actually might be the largest, with something like a dozen grand companies of nearly a thousand guys each.

Regardless, though, the Grey Knights are certainly a larger organization that most Space Marine chapters, and no Space Marine chapter is more than a footnote compared to the size of the Imperial Guard as a whole.

I really don't think I would mind if space marines were relegated to being allies in a guard list, or if the forces of the Imperium were released together in one codex with an emphasis on guard. I imagine the former would hurt GW's sales, but I'll bet the latter could actually help by encouraging players of all imperial armies to collect models from other imperial army ranges.

[Melissia]

I'd like it if it were something like this:

As a Guard army you may ally in the following from any other Imperial army (C:SM, C:AS, C:BA, C:GK, etc)

1 HQ
1 Elite
2 Troops
1 FA

As a Marine / Sisters / Inquisition army, you may ally in the following from any other Imperial army:

2-4 Troops
1-3 FA (as long as there are two troops from the allied army)
1 HS (as long as there are two troops from the allied army)


But it'd be very difficult to balance.

[Wolfshade]

Also, the vast majority of the actions the Sisters take do not involve the Inquisition. First and foremost, the Sisters of Battle are the army of the Imperial Cult (the Ecclesiarchy, the Imperial Church, etc).

Would you agree that the Guard are involved in more actions than the SoB/GK? Then would you say that the relative amount of inquistorial involvement is higher in GK/SoB when compared to IG, especially when you consider the remit of witch hunter inquisitors and SoB are so aligned, similarly demonhunting inquisitors & GKs?

I'm not saying that the majority of actions are involving them[inquisitors], but their more specialist areas of concern reflect them being included as an option in either force ratheras they unite against a common foe.

I suppose I am partly agreeing with the first post, but also not :confused:

If you consider the inquisitors to be an option for a SoB/GKs then you could have a Xeno Inquisitor as an option for the IG.

in the current format I don't think that there should be a codex inquistion as they co-opt other forces rather than having a standing army such as SoB, IG etc, but the "three" flavours of inquisitor be an option in the three codexs that most closely align to the Inquisitor's area of concern /flavour

[Melissia]

I would not dispute that the Guard is ever-present, but that is exactly WHY I would actually argue that they are used more often than the Sisters. There is no reason to call a distant Sororitas order into combat when you have a perfectly capable Guard presence that can do the job. My point was simply that the Sisters, as they are right now, only have an agreement to assist the Inquisition if asked; they have their own duties that they must attend to.

[Wolfshade]

perfectly capable Guard presence that can do the job

;) lol

Exactly, so the SoB are used for more specialist missions than Guard who are just used to hold until someone else turns up to save the day :)

But the question is, getting back on target - yes I know tangets are fun, in which codex do the inquisitors belong.

I don't think in there current incarnation they are a strong enough force to have a standalone codex as I imagine them working in small teams like in Eisenhorn or Ravenor (Where would we be without Mr Abnet), as they always work on the larger scale with someone else PDFs, IG, SM, SoB etc. Similiarly I don't think that the GKs codex is strong enough to be seperate, SoB yes I can see that after all 2nd Ed. they did have one.

So it becomes a question of placement where best do they fit?

[Melissia]

Their own minidex which contains all the allies rules for all factions of the Imperium.

[DarkLink]

Really? I'm not saying you're wrong just that I've either never heard this or I've missed the references. I'd always assumed that the GKs were a chapter and hence as limited as a regular chapter in their numbers, more so in recruitment because of the limitations and requirements of the 'job'. This was an assumption and now that I think about it 1000 for an entire galaxy makes even less sense than most things in the 40k universe. Be interested to see any references you can point me at.

Grey Knights are the most divergent Chapter there is. We don't even pretend to follow the Codex. Total numbers across the galaxy come in somewhere above 3000 Knights.


Here's our orgnizational chart:

Grey Knights do not use Scouts in any form. When a neophyte completes his training, he is granted Power Armor and a position in a squad under the command of a Justicar. Grey Knight training is so brutal that the additional battlefield training normal Astartes go through is not needed. Sometimes Knights that show a propensity for, say, marksmanship, are placed in a Purgation squad, rather than a standard battle squad.

Each squad is led by a Justicar, a more experience Knight. Each squad is then assigned to a Grey Knights strike cruiser, which are distributed across the Imperium.

Once a Grey Knight reaches a level of psychic power comparable to that to an Astartes Librarian, along with some other martial achievement, he can be promoted to a Terminator. He is then reassigned to a Terminator squad, which are also spread across the Imperium in strike cruisers.

If a Terminator impresses one of their commanders enough with their leadership as well as their psychic and martial prowess, they can be promoted to Brother Captain. Brother Captains lead major missions that involve multiple Grey Knight squads, and are usually at the head of Terminator squads.

If a Brother Captain fully masters their martial, physical and psychic potential, they can be promoted to Grand Master. They command major missions and probably oversee the deployment of strike cruisers. At least one Grand Master sits on the inner council of the Inquisition. These guys are pretty much the biggest, baddest, toughest, meanest military personelle in the whole of the Imperium. They stand head and shoulders above Space Marine Librarians in terms of psychic power, have the best weapons and equipment in the whole Imperium, and make SM Captains and Chapter Masters look like Neophytes.


And that's pretty much the whole of the Grey Knight organization. No complex rank progression from devestator to asssault marine to tactical marine, then all sorts of variations after that. There are no companies. There are simply

There are a few hints in the Grey Knight books of some additional background organization. For example, one of the characters is a Grey Knight Chaplain. It seems likely, though, that these ranks are primarily for trainiing purposes. The Chaplain(s)/Librarian(s) would hold that rank because they would be the ones training Neophytes in matters of faith and psychic powers. There isn't much information to go off of, however.

[DarkLink]

;) lol

Exactly, so the SoB are used for more specialist missions than Guard who are just used to hold until someone else turns up to save the day :)

But the question is, getting back on target - yes I know tangets are fun, in which codex do the inquisitors belong.

I don't think in there current incarnation they are a strong enough force to have a standalone codex as I imagine them working in small teams like in Eisenhorn or Ravenor (Where would we be without Mr Abnet), as they always work on the larger scale with someone else PDFs, IG, SM, SoB etc. Similiarly I don't think that the GKs codex is strong enough to be seperate, SoB yes I can see that after all 2nd Ed. they did have one.

So it becomes a question of placement where best do they fit?

If Blood Angels or Dark Angels can get their own codex for being divirgent Chapters, Grey Knights sure as heck deserve their own codex. I mean, seriously, the only think that sets apart Dark Angels from vanilla marines is the Ravenwing and Deathwing. If they gave SM Captains in Terminator Armor the ability to take Terminators as Troops, there'd be absolutely no point in the Dark Angels Codex.

Blood Angels are a little more divergent, but only insomuch as they have a number of different units, like the Baal Predator, Furiosos Dreadnought, Death Company and Overcharged Engines. That and the ability to take Assault Marines as Troops.


However, I can't say I disagree with you about where Inquisitors belong. Inquisitors themselves don't have enough to really justify their own codex, unlike the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle. They really only fit in to other Imperial Codices as HQ and Elite choices. I honestly think that they should have an Inquisition mini-dex, with Inquisitors, IST's, assasssins, and the various circus freak units that can be taken as HQ/Elite choices in normal Imperial Armies.

Inquisitors themselves don't have enough to let them stand on their own, but Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle do.

Edit: I will admit, though, that a Grey Knight codex would need quite a bit of expansion. As it stands, we have 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 1 Troop, 1 [useless] Fast Attack and 3 Heavies, one of which is even more useless (purgation squads). The 5 good units we do have are great (though the basic Grey Knight is overpriced), but there needs to be more variety in the list.

That can be done fairly easily, though. There's plenty of room to add new units into the Grey Knight Codex.

[Melissia]

Personally, I'd love to see a Grey Knights teleport squad that moves similar to how Warp Spiders move.

[Lerra]

I'd love to see this setup, personally:

Codex: Inquisition contains Inquisitors, Storm Troopers, Assassins, all of the other inquisition goodies, and Grey Knights. Can ally with IG, SM, and Adepta Sororitas

Codex: Adepta Sororitas contains Sisters of Battle and can get allies from Codex:Inquisition, IG, or SM

[Javin]

Lots of good points. I keep forgetting the Sisters of Battle are not the Inquisition.

Perhaps just fold the Deamonhunters codex into the IG Codex.

I agree that individual SM chapters are the smallest Imperial organizations. Their popularity and sales will mean they will not be relegated to the position they are fluff wise, a small special forces group that occasionally assists the IG.

[Wolfshade]

If Blood Angels or Dark Angels can get their own codex for being divirgent Chapters, Grey Knights sure as heck deserve their own codex...
Edit: I will admit, though, that a Grey Knight codex would need quite a bit of expansion. As it stands, we have 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 1 Troop, 1 [useless] Fast Attack and 3 Heavies, one of which is even more useless (purgation squads). The 5 good units we do have are great (though the basic Grey Knight is overpriced), but there needs to be more variety in the list.

That can be done fairly easily, though. There's plenty of room to add new units into the Grey Knight Codex.

Yeah that is it, it would need to be expanded, love the idea of Grey Knight Warp Spiders.

What I don't want to see is Grey Knights being silver SMs I think they need to remain special (a.k.a. kick *** awesome)

Not overly keen on the thought of a mini-dex also very unlikely to be done, but I know this isn't a what you would wish for, topic

[Dark_Templar]

I think the Space Wolves actually might be the largest, with something like a dozen grand companies of nearly a thousand guys each.
.

BT are apparently around the 6000 mark, but of course the Space Wolves are the largest. How could we be silly to think anybody else would be the biggest...

[Kahoolin]

Their own minidex which contains all the allies rules for all factions of the Imperium.Yeah, I agree this would be cool. If you think about it an Inquisition codex should be more like a 40k Dogs of War codex. I mean if you included radicals it could even have xenos like Blood axes or Eldar Rangers.

[DarkLink]

40k Lexicanum gives 5000-6000 BT.

Lexicanum also states that the SW have 12 Great Companies, which range from 150-1000 marines each. No concrete numbers given. Assuming a linear distribution of sizes (smallest Company at 150 marines, largest at 1000), they also fall in the 5000-6000 range, though the exact number could be anywhere from around 3000 to over 10000.




So long as I can play Pure Grey Knights, I'll be fine. I like allied Sisters, but I play Grey Knights because Grey Knights are awesome. Don't care much about Inquisitors.

However, rumors have recently popped up that work has started on separate SoB and GK codices, from some of those in the know on warseer. So this whole mini-dex talk will likely be eventually rendered moot. In, like, three years:(.

[Dark_Templar]

40k Lexicanum gives 5000-6000 BT.

Lexicanum also states that the SW have 12 Great Companies, which range from 150-1000 marines each. No concrete numbers given. Assuming a linear distribution of sizes (smallest Company at 150 marines, largest at 1000), they also fall in the 5000-6000 range, though the exact number could be anywhere from around 3000 to over 10000.


So really, despite what the BT codex says, if all the Templars gathered together, it would not be a big deal or threat because the SW would still have twice as many marines....

What about the fact that the Inquisitioni is a bit suss on the numbers of BT? If they are worried about the Black Templars, then the SW must be making them crap themselves.

[Nabterayl]

Lexicanum also states that the SW have 12 Great Companies, which range from 150-1000 marines each. No concrete numbers given. Assuming a linear distribution of sizes (smallest Company at 150 marines, largest at 1000), they also fall in the 5000-6000 range, though the exact number could be anywhere from around 3000 to over 10000.
Pretty sure that's out of date. Doesn't the current SW codex say that Ragnar's Great Company is the largest in the chapter, at just under 200 marines?

[DarkLink]

Yeah, that's probably more likely. I'd misremembered the current SW codex as listing Ragnar's company as 1200 marines, not 200.

In that case, we're probably looking at about 2000 Marines, roughly.

[Sangre]

I still don't understand the original logic for removing the Inquisition from the game apart from IG options.

[Melissia]

Mostly because the original logic for adding them in in the first place was, to summarize:

"Hey, we're releasing Inquisitor. How can we advertise? Oh, I know, let's pollute some 40K codices with some barely useable Inquisition units!"

[Sitnam]

Inquisition would probably be better off if their codex wasn't mixed with their chamber militiants (Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle and Deathwatch if an Alien Hunters codex existed.). But it makes no sense to restrict Inquisitors to an IG option. There is plently of fluff with Inquisitors fighting alongside Space Marines (Kryptman), Deathwatch (Not an army, but in the fluff.), Grey Knights (Hector Rex), Sisters of Battle (Unlike GK and DW, they aren't officially part of Inquisition despite being a chambers militiant. But many duties overlap with Ordo Hereticus, so they keep a close working relationship. Take for instance the Soul Drinkers series, where Sisters help Thaddeus), Adeptus Mechanicus (Again not a real army, but they do cooperate with Inquisition. Depends on Inquisitor of course.), and the Ecclesiarchy (Although really, working with the Eccleciasty is basically much the same as working with the Sisters of Battle. The Ecclesiarchy is the political organization, the Soritas the crusading troops of faith. The third Vraks book, for instance, talks in the beginging about how the Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy wanted command of the war but were stonewalled by Hector Rex. ). All of these organizations have ties with the Inquisition, I don't see any reason they should be IG only. A minidex is a good idea, as it makes room for the Ordo Militiants to each have a varied and large codex not restricted by the Inquisitors. At the same time, it also allows for the rules for Inquisitor wargear and henchmen to be alot more complex. If Inquisitors, IST's, and Assasins are the only ones involved in a minidex, then giving them large and varied henchmen and wargear rules wont get in the way of other units as would a normal codex.

[mysterex]

I like how Inquisition forces complain about codexs and what not. In the big picture of 40K large combat, who cares about them? They are, at best, minor players in the large military scale.


In a game of 1500 -1750 points there's typically around 40 - 60 infantry unless you're playing a horde. That's not an army by any means. 40k is a skirmish game and an Inquisitor can easily round up that many troops without resorting to guard, marines or sisters.

I for one would like to see a new Inquisition codex that would allow you to create a viable radical force based around Inquisitorial stormtroopers without relying on allies.

[Talon57x]

In a game of 1500 -1750 points there's typically around 40 - 60 infantry unless you're playing a horde. That's not an army by any means. 40k is a skirmish game and an Inquisitor can easily round up that many troops without resorting to guard, marines or sisters.

I for one would like to see a new Inquisition codex that would allow you to create a viable radical force based around Inquisitorial stormtroopers without relying on allies.

I agree. An Inquisitor can call upon the AdMech, the Arbites, his own henchmen, etc. to battle. The only time when the number of forces required would be unrealistic is in Apocalypse.

I too would like to see the =][= get their own (seperate) codex. Possibily use ISTs, Arbites, and PDF forces as troops, with specialized retinues without Inquisitors as Elites, and Repressors as Fast Attack. Add in specialized Radical and Puritan units and you have a force with a lot of character and options.

And if you think about it, there are probably more Inquisitorial aides/henchmen/bodyguards/assistants in the galaxy than there are Astartes.

[Wolfshade]

Demonhosts not radical enough? We abhor the demon, but we keep pet ones to attack our foes!

[Sangre]

And if you think about it, there are probably more Inquisitorial aides/henchmen/bodyguards/assistants in the galaxy than there are Astartes.

This is true. Aside from the gigantic Ordo Hereticus, the middling Ordo Xenos and the rather small Ordo Malleus, there are as many Ordos Minoris as there are Space Marine Chapters (i.e. so bloody many that they don't even know, and so you could probably invent your own). They're also the most politically powerful organisation in the Imperium and not even a High Lord of Terra could refuse their demands.

[Melissia]

Technically they could, but only if it's an obviously unreasonable demand.

[Sangre]

Well yes. Obviously. But it just shows you how insanely powerful the Inquisition is. There's probably actually an Ordo tasked specifically with monitoring the High Lords.

[The AKH]

Technically they could, but only if it's an obviously unreasonable demand.

And the Inquisition could probably go ahead and do it anyway... :p

[Melissia]

But most Inquisitors probably wouldn't.

The Inquisition, as a whole, is not a bull in a china cabinet. It's a far more subtle affair, and the vast majority of its actions are investigative, not military.

[rustbucket]

[QUOTE=Wolfshade;36196]I think the big thing is that they are entriely seperate entities, although they all serve the Imperium of Man, including space marines they all have specific traditions/motivations.QUOTE]

I think that everyone up here has some vailid points and good ideas, but lets take a step back and look at the GK's from this angle. They are a vague, shapeless, and mysterious organization that implements black ops across the galaxy. That totally makes them the CIA or NSA of the 40K universe. You don't need to know much about them, because they don't want the simple Imperial citizen to know about them. GK recruitment is even more stringent than that of normal Marine candidate selection, and they recruit secretly from all the chapters (think of the end of Flight of the Eisenstein). The phycho conditioning is elevated due to the nature of their missions (anti deamon incursion) and they are almost entirely psykers (Justicars in point). They have a permanent fortress on the moon of Titan, but nobody is allowed near it, much like Langley. Gamewise, I personally believe that they are better suited as allies for Marine or IG armies instead of conscripting from them. They are expensive and you field even less than a standard SM force, I still like em', but they are completely pointless against Orks. Just my two cents...