GK Tournament Army

[Katharon]

Small 1,500 point tournament that I have coming up, wanted to know what you guys thought. I decided that, since I won't know anyone at the tournament except my friend who is tagging along to watch and not play, I'd be rather merciless in making my list. Converted models are OK by official ruling of the tournament holder, so I took out all the stops. >:}

HQ
Inquisitor Coteaz [100]

Troops

1st Henchmen Jokaero Weaponsmith Squad [420]
- 12 x in squad

2nd Henchmen Jokaero Weaponsmith Squad [420]
- 12 x in squad

3rd Henchmen Jokaero Weaponsmith Squad [420]
- 12 x in squad

Henchmen Crusader Squad [135]
- 9 x in squad

Total: 1,495 Points

[Brandoncbaker]

Planet f the apes I'd say. Very shooty.

[Katharon]

I figured that being able to shoot 36 lascannons for the first two turns, then multi-meltas the 3rd turn (by which time they should be within 12"), and then overwatch with heavy flamers (12 x D3 for the win) on units that all have an 5+ invulnerable save -- would be nice.

[Brandoncbaker]

agreed,and find a few points for a aegsis line and it gets even scarier

[Katharon]

I try to avoid Aegis Defense Lines. I think they're a sell out for people that don't know how to use terrain effectively.

[Angelofblades]

You loose objective based missions

[DarkLink]

Also, super fragile. 36 Lascannons might sound impressive, but anyone with transports will just Flat Out towards you. You waste 1/3 of your shooting on the Rhino, so at best you can kill one unit inside, and 12 BS3 lascannon shots aren't even that good at killing infantry, so you're not even killing a whole unit. Then the rest of his army opens up, and most of your army dies Turn 2.

[Denzark]

All monkeys can be effective - with say the landing platform of doom. But without something? I aqree with what has been said. Inflexible.

[DemonFerret]

ITS AN ANDY SERKIS LIST. So much win. Tactically, its gonna be a one tactic gunboat. And a fragile one at that.

[Katharon]

You loose objective based missions

Nope, they count as troops thanks to Coteaz.

I am happy to report that I won the first round of the tournament. I slaughtered and tabled Space Wolves. Turn one I successfully destroyed all his transports (three Rhinos) and turn two I massacred two predators and a Land Raider. He then had to foot-slog across the table, so that by turn four he was finally in close-combat range. When he charged, he lost the last of his men to flamers and his Terminators were locked in combat against my Crusader squad, while Coteaz smashed them one-by-one in challenges.

[DarkLink]

And you still lose objective missions against a competent opponent. I mean, sure, it might do well in small flgs tournaments. You won't go far at a major tournament, though.

[Angelofblades]

Also consider terrain, not all flgs have a great complement of terrain imho. I'm not talking, a few sparse trees a building here and there, I'm talking about big LOS blocking pieces, stuff that prevents you from having LOS. A prime example is BoLS battle report #171. Look at that gorgeous table.

Most tables probably look like BoLS BR # 149 (no offense to those in the BR). Lots of open spaces. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how a game goes when on one side you have a shooting army and on the other, you don't have a shooty army that relies on it's mechanized transports to get it across the table.

But terrain is one of the most dominating factors of this game. Too little los blocking and you might as well play on an open table against a shooting army, you'd at least be better focused to get there, than get distracted by going for cover.

[DarkLink]

I'm definitely of the opinion that you can almost never have too much terrain on the table. 25% isn't your goal, it's your minimum. It just makes things that much more tactically challenging and interesting. Without terrain, or with inadequate terrain, the game is little more than bumrushing your opponent, or sitting back and shooting while your opponent bumrushes you. There might be a refused flank in there, maybe.

[Angelofblades]

I share your opinion. More terrain forces armeis to move for better positioning. Which imho, typically leads to a more dynamic game, and there's nothing bad about having a more dynamic game.

[Shotgun Justice]

I share your opinion. More terrain forces armeis to move for better positioning. Which imho, typically leads to a more dynamic game, and there's nothing bad about having a more dynamic game.

Seconded. Moving models is more fun than just rotating them and rolling dice.

Re OP: The weaknesses are several, multiple cc / short range units with cover or invuls will put the pressure on and collapse a monkey unit. The army suffers a serious lack of manoeuvrability so can only react. Coteaz can only cover a 12" bubble so deepstriking / drop pods will test that list seriously.
If I'd seen the list before the tourney and you were still wedded to it then I'd suggest maxing out your troops slots with smaller units of monkeys so you can target more than 3 units per turn.
I'd be interested to see how you fare against Raven or Dual-wing. Or Crons.
And you will lose objective games with this list, odd number of objectives, opponent places first and camps. Done

[Katharon]

We had 50% of the board covered in terrain (cityscape) and I managed to table him. I'm not an idiot. I'm well aware of the weaknesses that my army presented in the OP has, and I took steps to negate those weaknesses. Firstly, I always prefer to deploy second - even if I won the roll off. This gives me a clear idea of what kind of player I am up against in regards to his playing style. Is he/she aggressive? Is he/she conservative? Does my opponent like fast moving game pace or have a foot-sloggers army?

Next, when I deploy this particular army, I assign them sectors and fire lanes. I never deviate from these unless the situation merits it, but with as much firepower as each squad of Jokaeros can pump out, it hasn't been an issue. I also take advantage of placing my units in terrain cover or 2nd to 3rd story levels, getting the higher ground when possible. Just by looking at the terrain I know where an opponent will have to move through in order to approach either my army or an objective. These kill zones are mine.

My next opponent is an IG player who likes to do Drop Troops from vendettas. I'll write up the results again when I play. Cheers!

[Katharon]

If I'd seen the list before the tourney and you were still wedded to it then I'd suggest maxing out your troops slots with smaller units of monkeys so you can target more than 3 units per turn.

I had thought about that, but I prefer a higher rate of fire in a single phase of shooting than a scattering of 3 shots here and 4 shots there. This deployment has worked best for me in the past.

[davel]

One issue

Once the space monkeys pick a weapon they have to stick with it. I don't think they can keep changing like obliteratiors do

Dave l

[DarkLink]

They can switch weapon.

[Katharon]

They can switch weapon.

Correct. They are not limited the same way that Oblits are -- which makes me wonder why more players don't take them.

[Garradh]

Nope, they count as troops thanks to Coteaz.

You still lose objective-based games. You have one maneuver unit and rely on a static gun-line. Especially in a high-terrain situation, it's only easier to negate the one-trick pony that is your army. It works well against a SM army trying to rush across the board with no thought, that's it.

You played a bad player if it took him until Turn 4 to get into melee. Beating a bad player with a one-trick pony who had no idea what he was facing is only going to hurt you in the long run.

[Katharon]

You still lose objective-based games. You have one maneuver unit and rely on a static gun-line. Especially in a high-terrain situation, it's only easier to negate the one-trick pony that is your army. It works well against a SM army trying to rush across the board with no thought, that's it.

You played a bad player if it took him until Turn 4 to get into melee. Beating a bad player with a one-trick pony who had no idea what he was facing is only going to hurt you in the long run.

Ah, the beauty of snap-fire. Also, strategic deployment on my part so they aren't stuck in a corner somewhere being useless. Also, thanks to the Inconceivable Customisation rule, I can extend the range of my weaponry by 12", 60" range lascannons for the win.

He wasn't a bad player by any means, he was simply reduced to footslogging through a city. Take that into consideration.

[Garradh]

Cool, seems you've got it all figured out. Thankfully you're on the other side of the planet so I don't have to face such a fearsome, unstoppable army!

[Shotgun Justice]

Your units don't get Inconceivable Customisation.
Grey Knights FAQ p.5 - units of 6 or more monkeys get no bonuses, as is clear from reading the rule in the codex.
You or your opponents should know this

[Katharon]

Your units don't get Inconceivable Customisation.
Grey Knights FAQ p.5 - units of 6 or more monkeys get no bonuses, as is clear from reading the rule in the codex.
You or your opponents should know this

Just now noticed that. That is the most ridiculous ruling on an FAQ that I've seen in some time. Instead of making it so they don't get their special rule they should just say that they only get a +1 or +2 to their roll (or none at all) when rolling on the chart. That makes me sad.

Duly noted and I'll have to keep that in mind accordingly.

[Katharon]

With that in mind here is the altered list.

HQ
Inquisitor Coteaz

Troops

1st Squad
12 x Jokaeros

2nd Squad
4 x Jokaeros

3rd Squad
4 x Jokaeros

4th Squad
4 x Jokaeros

5th Squad
4 x Jokaeros

6th Squad
4 x Jokaeros


Elites

Crusader Henchmen Squad
9 x Crusaders

Jokaero Henchmen Squad
4 x Jokaeros

[Tuatara]

Rather than 3 squads of 12 monkeys, why not go 6 squads of 5 monkeys and put each one in a Chimera? They all get to shoot out and you have the Multilaser and Heavy Bolter there as well. Sure it's "only" 30 Lascannon shots, but you get to spread your shots around a little and cause your opponent to spread their fire a little as well. Hell, you may even have enough points for another Inquisitor upgraded to psyker so you have another Divinator on the table.

Oops! your altered list went up while I was writing this. One thing though, henchmen are not considered Elite when Coteaz is there (half way down the first column of page 5 of the FAQ).

[Katharon]

Rather than 3 squads of 12 monkeys, why not go 6 squads of 5 monkeys and put each one in a Chimera? They all get to shoot out and you have the Multilaser and Heavy Bolter there as well. Sure it's "only" 30 Lascannon shots, but you get to spread your shots around a little and cause your opponent to spread their fire a little as well. Hell, you may even have enough points for another Inquisitor upgraded to psyker so you have another Divinator on the table.

Oops! your altered list went up while I was writing this. One thing though, henchmen are not considered Elite when Coteaz is there (half way down the first column of page 5 of the FAQ).

That is f***ing retarded. Every army I know that has a character that does something similar, like with Kor'sarro Khan in the Space Marine codex, he makes 5-man units of bikes into troop choices, but that doesn't keep you from taking more bikes as Fast Attack choices. Whoever wrote that FAQ needs to have his head clocked.

I'll be chatting with the local fellas to see if they agree with me. If we do, then we'll probably make a house rule to allow it. Because this is f-ed up. It makes no logical sense at all.

[Katharon]

Until that discussion can happen, I'll have to alter the list again. Also, I don't have any Chimeras to use for the mobile bunker ploy -- and it's not one that I am often keen on using.


HQ
Inquisitor Coteaz

Troops

1st Squad
12 x Jokaeros

2nd Squad
10 x Jokaeros

3rd Squad
5 x Jokaeros

4th Squad
5 x Jokaeros

5th Squad
5 x Jokaeros

Crusader Henchmen Squad
9 x Crusaders

[Aegwymourn]

That is f***ing retarded. Every army I know that has a character that does something similar, like with Kor'sarro Khan in the Space Marine codex, he makes 5-man units of bikes into troop choices, but that doesn't keep you from taking more bikes as Fast Attack choices. Whoever wrote that FAQ needs to have his head clocked.

I'll be chatting with the local fellas to see if they agree with me. If we do, then we'll probably make a house rule to allow it. Because this is f-ed up. It makes no logical sense at all.

How does it make no sense that instead of taking a non-FOC slot they instead move to both Troops and can be taken without the inquisition rule? That is a really good trade off and you are whining that it isn't good enough? Really? Lets not mention that Coteaz by himself is one of the best HQ choices in the game, Henchmen squads are silly undercosted.

[Katharon]

How does it make no sense that instead of taking a non-FOC slot they instead move to both Troops and can be taken without the inquisition rule? That is a really good trade off and you are whining that it isn't good enough? Really? Lets not mention that Coteaz by himself is one of the best HQ choices in the game, Henchmen squads are silly undercosted.


To me that signals a weakness in the writing of the codex to begin with, not to mention the placement of the Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband in the Elite's section; if they don't take up an FoC slot then they should be under a heading in the HQ section, like the Command Squad and Honor Guard are for the Space Marines. Poor writers and codex makers.

[DarkLink]

It's not a weakness anymore than using the FOC in the first place is. The whole point of the FOC is to limit you to prevent over-spamming units. If you want to spam stuff beyond what the FOC allows, just understand that it's pretty expressly the opposite of the intent of the FOC in the first place.

[Aegwymourn]

To me that signals a weakness in the writing of the codex to begin with, not to mention the placement of the Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband in the Elite's section; if they don't take up an FoC slot then they should be under a heading in the HQ section, like the Command Squad and Honor Guard are for the Space Marines. Poor writers and codex makers.

How would them starting in a separate non-force organization section help your argument at all? It would only solidify the fact that what you want to do is expressly against what the author was trying to do. I mean never mind that the book is called "Grey Knights" and you don't actually have to take any since Coteaz is awesome/crazypants (depending on perspective). But you want take it a step further and should just ignore what has been a core concept of the game since 3rd edition? All because your army list is "thematic"? I mean that is fine in a closed environment where anyone can do it but don't play it off like its a badly written codex because it has a framework of rules to work with.

[Katharon]

Personally I was against it being "Grey Knights" from the beginning. It should have been "Daemonhunters" or "The Inquisition." The only reason it became "Grey Knights" was because of Matt Ward. (I personally dislike Ward, because of what he does to fluff and not necessarily the ridiculously overpowered codices he writes.)

I'm not talking about something that hasn't been thought of before. As I said, there are preceding examples of codices that allow a unit to change its FoC designation to become something else (Elites become Troops, Fast Attack becomes Troops, Heavy Support become Dedicated Transport, etc) -- so it's really not that much of a stretch to do what my suggestion had it as, that you simply make a force like the henchmen a designated slot on the FoC.

With the switch to 6th edition, I hope to see them split the Grey Knights codex in two. Let the Grey Knights have their own codex and then perhaps a supplement that is solely for the Inquisition. It would make more sense and you'd have less conflict between people who (like me) think that Inquisition forces should be stand alone and not tied in with an Astartes chapter.