Perturabo - A Mary-Sue?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Hi gang.

So, I just finished reading Angel Exterminatus. I thought it was alright - McNeill isn't anything like my favourite BL author (mostly because of his dialogue, which is occasionally extremely painful to read), and I find his version of Fulgrim annoying more than menacing or compelling, but it certainly had its moments. I especially thought the Broken Legions kill-team was very cool, with some interesting, well-drawn characters that I'd love to see again.

But I realised that I had one very big problem with the book, and it's a very big issue indeed: it's Perturabo.

I get that Perturabo's whole thing is that he's been "underestimated" and ill-used. But I feel like the book tries to go too far the other way - not only to make him "underestimated", but so completely badass at a number of different things that it's amazing he'd ever have been treated thus. So he's an epic-level inventor and planner of architectural and mechanical wonders. He's also a peerless strategist with an amazing ability to plan engagements, to fight and win from either side of a battle! All his wars are conducted meticulously! Oh, and also did we mention he has warp-sight? And speaks tons of languages? and is also "the strongest" of all the brothers? While we're at it, hell, all he ever wanted was to be loyal, but everyone just went around underestimating the amazing genius of Perturabo all the time. But if he's this good: why?

This is even before considering that we're told, in the space of about two sentences, that Perturabo's loyalty, once given, was utterly unshakable - and that this is why he had to follow Horus. Unshakeable loyalty is not convincing me as a reason to betray the Emperor.

There's enough to insinuate that Perturabo suffers from some pretty severe issues with guilt and self-loathing, and he walks fairly easily into a big obvious trap. But I was left feeling a bit cold. Most of the other Primarchs have been written in a more nuanced manner - Guilliman, for example, comes across as supremely gifted and more than a little prideful, but in his major appearances he's been undergoing whatever the Primarch equivalent of a minor breakdown as his whole world and everything he ever worked for is ripped from under his feet. I feel like I understand Guilliman, and certainly admire him without ever considering him an unflawed character. Vulkan in Vulkan lives, the last HH book I read, comes across really well. He's human, and super-human in a variety of ways, but it never feels quite over the top. Perturabo was just too much, or at least it seemed that way to me.

Mary-Sue is a bit harsh; but I think that the attempt in Angel Exterminatus to explain Perturabo and show some of his qualities goes too far, leaving the character a bit of an unbelievable mess.

Thoughts?

[Kirsten]

I really liked him personally. I wouldn't say he is a strategic genius, the bit you reference to him winning on both sides is a siege, which is of course his speciality. Warp sight is more just that he can see the eye of terror all the time, it doesn't give him any actual ability, more a weakness if anything. he is strong in a physical sense, which makes sense for a siege worker, he isn't described as the most powerful or best in combat, just physically strong which I think works. Flaws, he does walk into Fulgrim's trap mainly because he is too proud, he knows he can't trust Fulgrim but still thinks he will win regardless. I loved the inventor/architect side of him, really gave him a great range, and also makes it all the more tragic that he sides with Horus and the galaxy will never get the benefits of those abilities. I think that was the point really, emphasising what is lost in the heresy, not just him being an enemy, but the way he could have helped the imperium develop.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

You may be right, but if so, he's been written clumsily. I know that much of the novel is also from his perspective and that of his legion, so things are skewed somewhat anyway, but it all felt too much for me. It's not just 'he's better at more than just sieges', it's 'wow look at how amazing he is, and so is his legion!'. Knowing McNeill is the Iron Warriors guy... it feels like he went overboard, or at least that he missed what he was aiming at.

Fulgrim states outright that Perturabo was 'the strongest' of them all. Whether we trust Fulgrim or not, it's why he was picked for the plan. I don't think it's just in physical terms, either; more like willpower. Hauling himself up a mountain, never going back... I think this is a great pick for Perturabo's special 'thing'. It's just that he seems to have so many others, too.

Emphasising all that was lost in the civil war is a good point, though, it's definitely a theme that I enjoyed in this book and others.

[Kirsten]

honestly I didn't get the same feeling of super awesomeness that you did, I thought they were impressive and the book did a lot to add more depth to the legion who have never had all that much personality. Fulgrim was of course shamelessly flattering Perturabo throughout the book, so I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that. Willpower again I see personally as being that siege mentality, relentless, organised, long term...

[Cpt Codpiece]

yeah i got that the 'strongest of all of us' bits were flattery and meaning willpower...... 'iron within, iron without'

that was indeed perturabo's fault..... the very first chapter says it all... his first memory he is alone on a cliff, does he climb into the unknown or fall to his seemingly obvious fate, and his choice.... there was none.. he was engineered to strive on, harder and harder till the job at hand was complete.

however, given the events with the harvester stone...... it could have been a ploy by the pantheon to weaken him enough to ascend both fulgrim and allow perturabo to be just strong enough to survive so he was ultimately too weak to resist the whispers of the warp.

and the grand irony of the tale is the ending, perturabo is left with exactly the same question with exactly the same answer as the beginning, does he forge ahead into the unknown or fall to his seemingly obvious fate.

the seemingly random talents (intricate craft and design, both military and civilian), are evident in all primarchs, they all were made for a specific role during and after the crusade, it seems more strange to me that post crusade fulgrim was a master smith.... creating forgebreaker/oathbreaker (another reason he was chosen) for ferrus..... yet he cant work marble with any degree of skill.... enough to make him kill his inspiration out of spite.

[Katharon]

I think you've misunderstood the motives that drive Perturabo into rebellion. Firstly, he is a primarch and is therefore a demi-god in all but name. Based on that alone, we know that he is to be considered awesome in most all respects -- but he isn't alone in that category, he has 17 other brothers to compete with in attention. Nearly all of the primarchs can speak multiple languages -- some of them dedicated more time and study to them than others. It's fairly easy to believe that Perturabo took time to learn a few of them, gaining whatever insights to siege warfare that an enemy or past historian could give him.

Where the "understimated" aspect rolls into it is a result of how Perturabo and the Iron Warriors execute warfare, their SOP. It's not flashy. It's not something to paint an epic portrait about. It's not a tale that bards or poets would care to write a rendition of in text. The Iron Warriors are precise, mathematical, and above all methodical. Like it says in the book, Perturabo takes enjoyment out of the minutia of such such tasks that happen during a siege or lengthy campaign -- to the point where you have a guy like Guilliman complimenting him on out-Ultramarining the Ultramarines in that respect.

So it's easy to see how as a result of their way of making war, their expertise in siege warfare, turned them into the "diggers" and mud-covered Astartes that everyone can coast over and forget -- after all, digging trenches is not as inspiring as seeing a Blood Angels drop pod assault or a White Scars bike charge. So as the Great Crusade continued the Iron Warriors get more and more crap jobs, the muddy jobs, that no one else wants; and they aren't even thanked for it.

For all of that, Perturabo is still willing to let it go because he knows that Emperor values him for what he and his Iron Warriors are: the best darned siege troops in the galaxy. But then, why the rebellion? It's because of Olympia. It is an act so heinous and vile that Perturabo knows that the Emperor will never forgive him for it, that it would invite censure at the least and elmination at the worst (such as happened to the "missing" two primarchs and what happened to Magnus). Horus takes advantage of this moroseness in Perturabo and leads him down the path of rebellion, twisting the Iron Warriors to his cause.

Regarding the "peerless strategist" part. The book never claims that Perturabo is the galaxies best strategist at warfare. It says he is the best there is at siege warfare. The simulation battle we see in the book is a simulated siege of the Imperial Palace -- it's not a blitzkrieg campaign across open fields or a fluid campaign involving no set defenses; it's a siege. Among all the primarchs, Perturabo has perfected siege warfare -- that shouldn't be in dispute. It's one of the reasons for antagonism between the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists -- the siege masters versus the praetorian defenders, two sides of the same coin.

Regarding "warp sight"? He doesn't have it. The only thing is that he could always see the Eye of Terror in the night sky. You could think of it as something that carried over from when Chaos scattered the primarchs and affected each of them differently.

End note...well, I like the book - if for no other reason - because you get to see Perturabo face-planting Fulgrim into a bloody mess. That gave me quite a bit of satisfaction.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Thanks for the thoughts, guys, I suspect you guys are right - I'd still suggest that the writing of the character is pretty clumsy. I feel like I've seen much better-written Primarchs - Vulkan in Vulkan lives really does the whole guilt and self-loathing thing far, far better and much more believably.

I also simply don't understand why the Iron Warriors would be ignored. It's not like it's only "glory" that people care about in this universe; it's clearly results. The Word Bearers achieved censure because they weren't getting results (and were instead devoting themselves to worship). Sure, the Remembrancers weren't painting mighty epic paintings of the Iron Warriors; but they clearly *had* Remembrancers along with them until Perturabo "purged" them. They've been complimented on their way of warfare by Guilliman, one of the primarchs who sees the value in the varied ways of war. So why do they feel unappreciated? Because there's a shortage of paintings and a rivalry with Dorn?

Now, I will grant you, there's a strong undercurrent of the idea that it's all, or mostly, in their heads. They *feel* unappreciated more than they actually are - I mean, they've carved out this niche for themselves so effectively that they're the #1 force you call to reduce the galaxy's epic fortresses. Sure, it's not "glorious", but isn't being used for *exactly the quality you most pride yourself on having mastered* a good thing? Or else, what's the point in mastering it?

But then, as I say, the undercurrent: they're sulky, sullen, self-obsessed, manipulative, vindictive. Perturabo is a closed book of frequent rages and self-loathing. Maybe being "underestimated" and "undervalued" is his way of excusing his own failures as a Primarch, real or perceived.

My point is that the book doesn't really handle the reasons for Perturabo's fall; it doesn't really make a convincing case for why he is the way he is, either. Maybe another writer and another perspective will give us a more rounded view. Or maybe I just genuinely don't like either Perturabo or the Iron Warriors!


well, I like the book - if for no other reason - because you get to see Perturabo face-planting Fulgrim into a bloody mess. That gave me quite a bit of satisfaction.

Heh, that's actually the problem I have with it. Where most of the primarchs have been used in their books for storyline purposes - how did they fall? How do they interact with others? - this book felt too much like the Isn't Perturabo Awesome show for my liking. Clearly YMMV and that's cool. :)

[Archon]

I really liked him personally. I wouldn't say he is a strategic genius, the bit you reference to him winning on both sides is a siege, which is of course his speciality. Warp sight is more just that he can see the eye of terror all the time, it doesn't give him any actual ability, more a weakness if anything. he is strong in a physical sense, which makes sense for a siege worker, he isn't described as the most powerful or best in combat, just physically strong which I think works. Flaws, he does walk into Fulgrim's trap mainly because he is too proud, he knows he can't trust Fulgrim but still thinks he will win regardless. I loved the inventor/architect side of him, really gave him a great range, and also makes it all the more tragic that he sides with Horus and the galaxy will never get the benefits of those abilities. I think that was the point really, emphasising what is lost in the heresy, not just him being an enemy, but the way he could have helped the imperium develop.

I like to agree with Kirsten. The book offered a lot of insight in the character of Perturabo. First he is a primarch too and therefore, has to be a genius in some other things, except that language thing, they are well chosen. That is a fleuentliy speaker of the eldar-tounge, that is a bit too much - for every primarch i think. Perhaps in the imperiums libaries there are plenty of books and electronical knowledge about the eldar-race?! Whatever - did you notice, that the IW are actualy playing tabletops? Perturabo also has a scratchbuild apo-unit :cool:

[Katharon]

I also simply don't understand why the Iron Warriors would be ignored. It's not like it's only "glory" that people care about in this universe; it's clearly results. The Word Bearers achieved censure because they weren't getting results (and were instead devoting themselves to worship).

Results yes, but not necessarily fast results. Remember, they're performing predominantly in siege warfare zones - not all of which can be executed quickly, even by Astartes.


So why do they feel unappreciated? Because there's a shortage of paintings and a rivalry with Dorn?

Just because they are post-human, doesn't mean that they don't feel jealousy or neglect. A continual build up of not ever getting enough credit, praise, or recognition of deeds can lead to some nasty stuff. I imagine that when the Emperor chose Dorn to return to Terra and fortify it that Perturabo took it as an insult - or at least a clear sign that the Iron Warriors weren't as good as the Imperial Fists. Small stones, but if enough of them fall in the water a ripple can turn into a tide.


Now, I will grant you, there's a strong undercurrent of the idea that it's all, or mostly, in their heads. They *feel* unappreciated more than they actually are - I mean, they've carved out this niche for themselves so effectively that they're the #1 force you call to reduce the galaxy's epic fortresses. Sure, it's not "glorious", but isn't being used for *exactly the quality you most pride yourself on having mastered* a good thing? Or else, what's the point in mastering it?

As I said above. Also, because even if you are good at a thing doesn't mean you no longer wish people to recognize that fact.




My point is that the book doesn't really handle the reasons for Perturabo's fall; it doesn't really make a convincing case for why he is the way he is, either. Maybe another writer and another perspective will give us a more rounded view. Or maybe I just genuinely don't like either Perturabo or the Iron Warriors!

Both valid points.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

did you notice, that the IW are actualy playing tabletops? Perturabo also has a scratchbuild apo-unit

Yeah. I thought it was a bit too fanservicey. Although, then again, I did like when Perturabo gave Fulgrim a 'closer look' at what he'd made. Likewise with the final revelation of the book (although I enjoy how it came about).

Thinking about it, it's fairer to say that I have mixed feelings rather than actively disliking the book and the character. You guys have made some good points, although I'm still not convinced. :)

[Scrumblegort]

I think McNeill just has a tendency to write in a somewhat over the top manner. Not that it is always a bad thing. As opposed to say Abnett or ADB, McNeill's characters come across more like comic book characters to me. However, if you want to talk about a Mary Sue in AE, the Raven Guard character was rather ridiculous.

[The Sovereign]

That is a fleuentliy speaker of the eldar-tounge, that is a bit too much - for every primarch i think. Perhaps in the imperiums libaries there are plenty of books and electronical knowledge about the eldar-race?!

Actually, I believe that would make him the second primarch to speak the Eldar tongue; Vulkan has been portrayed as able to communicate with Commorite Eldar in their native language, presumably due to their frequent raids and activity on Nocturne.

[DWest]

Couple of tidbits --
-There's a scene in Fulgrim pg 403-404, where Horus talks about sending Peturabo to burn Olympia "In my name". It's thin, but between that and a couple of other mentions, it seems as though Horus actually orchestrated some of the situations that led to the Iron Warriors' turning to Chaos, in an attempt to push them over.

-The Raven Guard didn't seem too over-the-top, I mean 1) those who managed to fight their way out of the Dropsite would likely be the cream of the crop of their respective Legions; 2) Fulgrim was kinda just standing there asking for it during the theatre scene; 3) Corax is known to be able to become effectively invisible, and Legionaires are able to inherit the traits of their Primarchs.

-I have no problem believing Perturabo capable of designing incredibly complex and detailed devices and bits of architecture; Guilliman wrote a book that lets you choose-your-own-adventure your way through any combat situation imaginable, and Perturabo is just as skillful, just in different arenas.

-Finally, I personally liked the scene with the IWs playing what amounts to 40k. What else are Astartes going to do for fun? It's nearly impossible for them to get drunk, they can't have sex, and seeing as their vessels have finite cargo space, they will eventually run out of lapping powder and expendable training servitors.

What really bugged me in Angel Exterminatus was the dumbass Thamatica. Hey, let's conduct dangerous, high-energy experiments while we're sneaking around a huge traitor fleet. What could possibly go wrong? I understand that for the sake of the plot, something had to happen to give away their position, it just seemed like somewhere along the line Thamatica was the victim of the dreaded Squig Brain Transplant.

[Aegwymourn]

Guilliman wrote a book that lets you choose-your-own-adventure your way through any combat situation imaginable

This has to be the best thing I've read all day. I got the hilarious image of a chapter master thumbing his way through it, holding a thumb on the previous page to see what the result was.

[Katharon]

This has to be the best thing I've read all day. I got the hilarious image of a chapter master thumbing his way through it, holding a thumb on the previous page to see what the result was.

Haha, same here.

Well put DWest. Well put.

[Cadian122]

This has to be the best thing I've read all day. I got the hilarious image of a chapter master thumbing his way through it, holding a thumb on the previous page to see what the result was.

You, Sir, have made my day.

[DWest]

This has to be the best thing I've read all day. I got the hilarious image of a chapter master thumbing his way through it, holding a thumb on the previous page to see what the result was.

"Oh man! Every single mention of these 'Tyranid' buggers leads directly to a bad end! I had to, er, 'reaffirm the logic of my choices' clear back to M40 to get a safe path."