1850 Blood Angels

[ElectricPaladin]

Just a thought, based on two things:
1) I got a land raider for $10 at today's swap meet.
2) Some thoughts on the best use of land raiders from a buddy of mine who plays Chaos.

These two things combined in my head recently to produce an... interesting list. I'm curious to read your thoughts on it:

HQ
• Terminator Librarian w/Storm Shield

Elites
• 2 Sanguinary Priests
• 1 Sanguinary Priest w/Jump Pack
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Fists (Heavy Flamer & Meltagun), Magna-Grapple

Troops
• 10 Tactical Marines, Sergeant w/Power Fist, Flamer & Heavy Bolter
• 10 Assault Marines (Foot), Sergeant w/Power Fist, 2 Flamers
° Land Raider Crusader
• 10 Assault Marines (Jump), Sergeant w/Power Fist, 2 Meltaguns

Fast Attack
• Baal Predator w/Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Dozer Blade

Heavy Support
• Stormraven w/Assault Cannons, Mult-Melta
• 5 Devastators, 4 Missile Launchers
° Razorback w/Heavy Bolters

So, this is the idea:

As passed on to my by my friend who plays Chaos, Imperial players often make the mistake of putting terminators in land raiders. This is a high value unit in a high value vehicle, which makes it an overwhelmingly attractive target, and one that cripples your list when it's lost.

In this list, I've got some high value vehicles. Stormravens and land raiders are both reasonably hard to crack, and can deliver my units to where they belong. They can also - and this is the important part - knock the target unit down a couple of dozen pegs so that the unit inside can deal with them, even though it isn't a super high-value unit. I have assault cannons and missile launchers and hurricane bolters and heavy bolters. I have tactical marines that can hop out of a storm raven to camp out on an objective... or get a good position and fire on a target. That's a lot of lead for my opponents to eat. When my assault marines finally come out of their shell, it's to mop up.

I also have a lot of potential vectors for objective-grabbing: assault marines in a tank, assault marines falling out of the sky, and tac marines riding in a stormraven.

Anyway, this is a new way of approaching Blood Angels lists - what do you think?

[Wolfshade]

I have run a very similiar list to this in the past and have rolled over an IG with it.

For me the questions would probably revolve around do I need the 3 priests or can I drop down to two. I would be tempted to try and squeeze another Baal Pred into that list though I am not enitrely sure where the fat would be trimmed from to do it.

LRs are brilliant fire magnets and if you are lucky they will surive at least to turn two at which point they are delivering their pay load and providing a brilliant screen to advance behind.

I quite often untilise the old send armour in the front with troops following up behind, inspired by WW2 tactics,

[Tynskel]

There's nothing wrong with terminators in a Land Raider. It is when you have terminators in a Land Raider along with a fully loaded stormraven... now you really have a lot of points spread over a vary small bit.

[Garradh]

Seems like a good way to lose sergeants. Meltabombs and power swords still have a chance of killing vehicles but let your sergeants have a chance in duels. I suppose it's meta-driven.

[ElectricPaladin]

Seems like a good way to lose sergeants. Meltabombs and power swords still have a chance of killing vehicles but let your sergeants have a chance in duels. I suppose it's meta-driven.

Interesting point.

In my experience thus far, I usually want to add that extra bit of killing power. There aren't a lot of challenges issued in my meta.

Also, don't forget - both units of assault marines have at least one associates character - a priest, with BS 5 and a chainsword. He can always take the challenge. The land raider marines also have a terminator librarian.

[ElectricPaladin]

All right, so I thought about your advice, looked at my list and realized that I had forgotten how to math (derp derp), and spruced it up a little. Here is my second version:

HQ
• Terminator Librarian w/Storm Shield

Elites
• Sanguinary Priest (Foot)
• Sanguinary Priest (Jump)
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Fists (Meltagun and Storm Bolter)

Troops
• 10 Assault Marines (Foot) w/2 Flamers, Sergeant w/Power Sword
° Land Raider Crusader
• 10 Assault Marines (Jump) w/2 Plasma Guns, Sergeant w/Power Fist
• 10 Tactical Marines w/Flamer and Heavy Bolter, Sergeant w/Power Fist

Fast Attack
• Baal Predator w/Dozer Blade

Heavy Support
• Stormraven w/Assault Cannons & Multi-Meltas
• 5 Devastators w/4 Lascannons, Sergeant w/Power Sword
° Razorback w/Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolters

As you can see, I have tried to equip the devastators to be a little more effective at popping vehicles at range, even though it was a lot more expensive and cost me some of the dreadnought and predator upgrades I was originally fielding. I like the range and power of the lascannons because it lets me diversify the threats my opponent faces: should they aim their fire at lascannons that will pop open their transports or at the the onrushing land raider that threatens to smush the delicious mandudes inside?

I could see myself swapping the lascannons for something a little more versatile (and cheaper) like plasma cannons and using the points to put a heavy flamer on the devastator and heavy bolters on the Baal predator, but these are the models I have. Additionally, I really like the power to reach out and touch someone at 48'', and the signum's BS 5 is a lot more attractive on something that rolls to hit, rather than to scatter. I'll have to see how it shakes out. Honestly, with a heavy bolter on a tactical marine, heavy bolters on the razorback, assault cannons on the stormraven and the land raider and the Baal predator, not to mention the hurricane bolters, I think I've got enough mid-range dakka that I can afford to splurge on long-range laserdeath.

Finally, I took your advice and cut down to two priests. As you can see, I've got one on foot (rides in the land raider) and one with jump pack (drops - or deploys - with the assault marines). Why? If I chose to deep strike the assault marines, they may have to weather a turn of enemy shooting. Feel No Pain will make sure they can do that. They are my only foot unit, which means that they may well end up soaking up a lot of anti-infantry fire that has no other good targets; the priest will help with that as well. Furious Charge isn't really for them. I intend to use them as a fast-moving harassing unit, putting AP 2 plasma gun shots into things I need dead, and only closing when the odds are in their favor - though I could see them closing in to rip a tank apart with krak grenades and that smashfist, since assaulting a vehicle that isn't a transport usually leaves you in a good position, hiding behind a wreck.

The other priest rides in the land raider, of course. Those dudes will definitely make good use of Furious Charge and Feel No Pain. If I had the points, I'd buy them a chaplain, too, but I don't. It doesn't matter, since the librarian will probably take at least one Divination power (most likely to give me powers that grant benefits to the land raider's shooting and his squad's assaulting) - maybe one Divination and one Biomancy - and most Divination powers are rerolls, and a given die can only be rerolled once, so there's a good chance that a chaplain would be redundant.

[Anggul]

Missile Launchers are 48" range too, so you have the same range with more versatility. I will say that it is very nice to have S9 AP2 though. Drop the Power Sword on the Devastator Sergeant, that's rarely going to be much use.

I would swap the Tactical squad Heavy Bolter for a Missile Launcher, it's almost always better and costs the same. Heavy Bolters just aren't worth taking on anything but Devastators really, something has got to change because they're so iconic yet so useless on almost everything.

Otherwise I like the list, it will be interesting to see in action.

[Garradh]

Interesting point.

In my experience thus far, I usually want to add that extra bit of killing power. There aren't a lot of challenges issued in my meta.

I would recommend taking a good look at the challenge rules and start implementing them yourself, they are a wonderful new game dynamic both offensively and defensively.




Also, don't forget - both units of assault marines have at least one associates character - a priest, with BS 5 and a chainsword. He can always take the challenge. The land raider marines also have a terminator librarian.

I tend to double-character my killiest characters (kharn with aspiring champion, tyranid prime with swarmlord) so one can accept (or issue) the challenge while the heavy hitter does the killing. That being said, risking your one-wound model that gives a 6" FNP/FC bubble seems like a very, very bad idea to me. I would recommend putting the PF on the SPriest instead of the sergeant - that way you have a character you can afford to lose.

[ElectricPaladin]

Missile Launchers are 48" range too, so you have the same range with more versatility. I will say that it is very nice to have S9 AP2 though. Drop the Power Sword on the Devastator Sergeant, that's rarely going to be much use.

I would swap the Tactical squad Heavy Bolter for a Missile Launcher, it's almost always better and costs the same. Heavy Bolters just aren't worth taking on anything but Devastators really, something has got to change because they're so iconic yet so useless on almost everything.


I tend to double-character my killiest characters (kharn with aspiring champion, tyranid prime with swarmlord) so one can accept (or issue) the challenge while the heavy hitter does the killing. That being said, risking your one-wound model that gives a 6" FNP/FC bubble seems like a very, very bad idea to me. I would recommend putting the PF on the SPriest instead of the sergeant - that way you have a character you can afford to lose.

All really good points. I'm locked into my current infantry configurations by the models I own, but I'll see how the power fists work and consider changing them up.

[magickbk]

The only things that I would feel concerned with would be that if your Devastators take more than 1 casualty, they are losing lascannons (which I figure you assume that the Land Raider is a better target for your enemy), and scoring units. Since you are putting your foot assault units in the Land Raider, and your Tactical Squad in your Storm Raven, this leaves you with max 4 scoring units, 3 of which are going to be heading for assault, which means if they get bogged down or destroyed, you only have 1 unit in the Storm Raven entering from reserve to take objectives.

[ElectricPaladin]

The only things that I would feel concerned with would be that if your Devastators take more than 1 casualty, they are losing lascannons (which I figure you assume that the Land Raider is a better target for your enemy), and scoring units. Since you are putting your foot assault units in the Land Raider, and your Tactical Squad in your Storm Raven, this leaves you with max 4 scoring units, 3 of which are going to be heading for assault, which means if they get bogged down or destroyed, you only have 1 unit in the Storm Raven entering from reserve to take objectives.

I see what you're saying. I think that this list is going to survive by scaring my opponent with all the twin-linked high ROF dakka I can put out. If I can get my opponent on his back foot and thinking "I've got to deal with this predator, I've got to deal with this land raider, I've got to deal with those devastators" then I have the opportunity to push him to turtle up. If my opponent meets the charge head on... well, then it depends. I could see myself having problems.

By the way, I'm not sure I get your math. I have three scoring units: two assault squads and a tactical squad. That's three scoring units. All of them can Combat Squad. That's six scoring units. In the scenario where Heavy Support scores, I have two more scoring units (devastators and hovering stormraven) and in the scenario where Fast Attack scores, I have one additional scoring unit (Baal predator). That's, potentially, between three and eight scoring units, depending on the scenario and my deployment choices.

Don't forget - combat squads can share a transport. There's no reason I can't divide the tactical squad and the foot assault squad.

Also, I'm not married to deploying the entire tactical squad in the devastator. One thing I could do, for example, is divide them in half, deploy the half with the heavy weapon guarding a backfield objective and the other half in the stormraven to assist with grabbing midfield objectives.

[magickbk]

Don't forget - combat squads can share a transport. There's no reason I can't divide the tactical squad and the foot assault squad.

I did forget that part. It has been some time since I played either with or against marines. For some reason I just don't seem to run up against them.

[ElectricPaladin]

Now, the other thing that I'm considering is fielding an ordinary dreadnought instead of a furioso dreadnought. For twenty points less, I lose two points of WS, a point of armor, and one STR 10 attack. I also gain a multi-melta on the dreadnought. I would probably use those twenty extra points to put a multi-melta on the land raider and replace the dreadnought's storm bolter with a heavy flamer (because I have never had a storm bolter be worth anything, ever).

The question is, does the list as it stands have enough capacity to crack open transports so my assaulters can get at the delicious blood sacks inside? With the furioso, I've got four lascannons (infantry) and one twin-linked mulit-melta (on a flyer). I've got a lot of assault cannons, but they aren't exactly reliable as an anti-vehicle weapon. If I switch to the ordinary dreadnought, I'll have four lascannons (infantry), one twin-linked multi-melta (flyer), and two more multi-meltas (vehicle).

The other thing to consider is that the dreadnought is riding in the stormraven, which a) already has a twin-linked multi-melta and b) is carrying the less assault-happy unit, so it might not be relevant.

That said, there are two other thoughts I've had:

1) Put the assault marines and terminator librarian (and furioso dreadnought) in the stormraven. Put the tacs in the land raider, and make it a godhammer instead of a crusader.

This improves the alignment of the units and their rides. You've got a units that wants to charge into combat (assault marines and dreadnought) riding in the fast-moving assault vehicle. You've got the unit with the mid to long range weaponry in the slow vehicle with the long range weaponry.

Alternately...

2) Keep the tacs in the storm raven, but make the dreadnought a hellfire dreadnought (ie. a long range fire support dreadnought, usually equipped with either a twin-linked autocannon or missile launcher on one arm and a twin-linked autocannon, twin-linked lascannon, or plasma cannon on the other). Now, the stormraven's job is to drop the tacs in a good vantage point (hopefully controlling an objective) then fly off to do its thing. The tacs screen the dreadnought, acting as both a 4+ cover save (that itself enjoys a 3+ armor save!) and counterchargers, to get into melee with anything that wants to silence the dreadnought's guns. That's a module producing four twin-linked 7/4 shots a turn - enough to smush hardy units and crack light vehicles all over the board - not to mention a heavy bolter or missile launcher.

Of the two changes, I vastly prefer the second because a) my land raider is a crusader and I don't own the bits to make it a godhammer and b) I like crusaders a lot more than godhammers, categorically.

Or, alternately, the list is fine as it is.

What do you think?

[ElectricPaladin]

No thoughts on these optional changes? None at all?

[Brandoncbaker]

I think most of the proposed changes will really depend on a little play testing. As far as anti vechicle. I'd say Assault cannons are great,against anything 12 lower you can jib one a turn with 4 shots str 6 rending.

[magickbk]

Some of this depends on your meta. If people really don't take many vehicles, then you may be alright, but if players near you are mech-heavy, then I would say make the proposed changes. I am struggling right now with suddenly needing to add more anti-tank to my Tau than I ever needed before.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah... the trouble is this: light vehicles are getting more rare, but heavy vehicles seem to be getting more common. I'm seeing a lot less in the way of rhinos and a lot more in the way of land raiders. AV 12 is kind of rare - AV 13 to 14 is a lot more common now. AV 10 to 11 is still pretty common, because those vehicles tend to be skimmers and have smarmy rules to keep them safe.

Hm... sounds like the what I want to do is keep the list basically as is but put a multi-melta on the dreadnought. Between the multi-melta and the S 10 blood fist, the dreadnought can wreck a tank that's sufficiently near an enemy objective, then the tacs can hide behind the wreck?

Or alternately, make it some kind of split-purpose dreadnought, with a multi-melta and lascannons, so it can kill whatever the tacs land near, then lascannon at more distant targets?

Or maybe the current configuration is actually best. It has got a meltagun in that blood fist. The fact is that the only benefit of the multi-melta is range, which isn't an issue when the dreadnought can hop out of a platform as fast and mobile as a stormraven...

[ElectricPaladin]

So, two notes:

1) The other thing I could do if I wanted more heavy vehicle destruction would be to put meltaguns/power fists on the jump assault squad. That makes them a bit less versatile than plasma rifles, but it would save me points and let me drop melta where it wants to be - right up the nose up enemy tanks.

2) It turns out that I don't own four lascannon devs. I own two lascannon devs and two missile devs. Is a pair of las and a pair of missile a good configuration, or a waste of time?

[Dave Mcturk]

do marines get flakk these days on their ml ?? whats your AA ??
robots/walkers etc ... all very vulnerable in 6th as no 4+ cover saves...

[ElectricPaladin]

do marines get flakk these days on their ml ?? whats your AA ??
robots/walkers etc ... all very vulnerable in 6th as no 4+ cover saves...

No news on flak for marine missile launchers.

My AA is my stormraven. They're pretty good at anti-aircraft.

Also, with all their twin-linked weaponry, land raider crusaders are surprisingly good at taking down flyers.

[Tynskel]

Between typhoon launchers, a twin lascannon, 4 blood strikes, and the ability to shoot two targets, the stormraven is a nice gunship in a dogfight.

Not to mention, hit anything on the board.

[ElectricPaladin]

Between typhoon launchers, a twin lascannon, 4 blood strikes, and the ability to shoot two targets, the stormraven is a nice gunship in a dogfight.

Not to mention, hit anything on the board.

Well, mine has multi-meltas and assault cannons. As I was saying earlier, vehicles have become rare in my meta, except for the occasional monolith/land raider/other really badass AV 14 threat that you need deadified. So, mostly melta and some dakka.

[ElectricPaladin]

Another question I'm having: to terminator librarian or to not terminator librarian?

What do you think? 45 points gives him a 2+/3++, which is great for keeping my HQ alive. On the other hand, 45 points is a lot of points. That's... hurricane bolters on the stormraven. That's heavy bolters on the Baal predator. Heck... that's almost half of what I need to put a chaplain with those assault marines.

That's nothing to be sneezed at.

What do you think?

[Wolfshade]

If he is running with a surrounding squad then you can always use ablative wounds, I mean look out sir, argh!. Also, it would enable his squad to sweeping advance, which is occassionally useful. On the other hand 2+/3++ is very good and if your HQ dies you lose your psychic defense and victory points.

I tend to play at around the 1000pt mark more often then not and so it is all about lean lists.

[ElectricPaladin]

If he is running with a surrounding squad then you can always use ablative wounds, I mean look out sir, argh!. Also, it would enable his squad to sweeping advance, which is occassionally useful. On the other hand 2+/3++ is very good and if your HQ dies you lose your psychic defense and victory points.

I tend to play at around the 1000pt mark more often then not and so it is all about lean lists.

I increasingly think that it might always be about lean lists.

I also wonder if putting the toys on the vehicles might not, generally, be a better call in this list. I mean, in every case I'm relying on the strong transports to soften up the targets before the infantry engages them. Additionally, the best defense is a good offense, and I've seen what hurricane bolters do to infantry...

And, you know, it makes sense to give a librarian terminator armor when he's hanging out with infantry. In that case, he's with a squad of 5 dudes. When a librarian is hanging out with a big squad of 10 dudes, it might not be as important to make him, personally, that hard to kill.

[Tynskel]

Personally, I don't like sticking terminators in power armor squads.
You lose the ability to ride in most transports. Not to mention, you lose the ability to 'sweeping advance'.

The blood angels librarian, is a support character, and should be treated that way. It isn't your powerhouse, and the loss of such a character should not be #1 on your thinking.

Terminator Armor on a librarian means that you are sending that character to face Doom and walk away. I just don't see that being very productive with the way your list is designed.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, ok, final version of the list as-I-can-field-it-now:

HQ
• Librarian w/Force Stave - Probably either Divination & Biomancy or Divination x2

Elites
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Fists (Heavy Flamer & Meltagun)
• 2 Sanguinary Priests, 1 w/Jump Pack

Troops
• 10 Assault Marines (Foot), 2 Flamers, Sergeant w/Power Sword & Meltabombs
° Land Raider Crusader w/Multi-Melta
• 10 Assault Marines (Jump), 2 Meltaguns, Sergeant w/Power Fist
• 10 Tactical Marines, Heavy Bolter & Flamer, Sergeant w/Power Fist

Fast Attack
• Baal Predator (Dakka) w/Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Heavy Support
• Stormraven (Assault Cannons & Multi Meltas) w/Hurricane Bolters
• 5 Devastators, 2 Lascannons & 2 Missile Launchers, Sergeant w/Power Sword
° Razorback w/Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolters

As you can see, I've spent the extra points from taking away the librarian's terminator armor mostly on hurricane bolters on the stormraven. Now my two main tanksports (I know there's a "real military" term for that, but I like tanksports and I'm sticking with it) both have a good mix of dakka and melta, which equips both of them to handle darn near everything they might run into.

I've also settled on kitting out the jump pack assaulters as tank hunters. I know there are a lot of things they can do, but the idea of dropping them behind a pesky tank and meltaing the heck out of it is just too tasty to ignore.

I'm not sure about the mixed devastator squad. I may someday change my mind and spring for all lascannons, or something more versatile like plasma cannons, but I just don't have the models right now, so the point is moot for at least a couple of months.

[ElectricPaladin]

I got to play a somewhat pared (1750) back version of this list the other day. I lost, but it was a good game, and I got some interesting information:

1) I have got to protect my Baal better. I lost it early and really suffered.

2) The devastators were really effective and didn't mind having their razorback cut, which leads me to wonder how much they need it. If they don't, I could use those points towards, say a chaplain for my foot assault squad.

3) The whole stormraven with tacs thing is very strategically flexible.

4) I struggled with armor and might want to replace the Baal with a vindicator...