black legion pre order. yaya for rules we already have.

[daboarder]

So the black legion is up for pre order.

The selling point, you must buy votlw

And chosen are troops.


**** you GW **** you

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Those preview pages don't show us everything, and I don't see any problem with what we've seen so far. Well, besides the price, but they're keeping the rules light enough that I'm fine with ignoring it.

Edit: Not that I think it's that good, just that there's nothing offensive about it. Still avoiding tackling highly deviant subfactions. I guess Farsight was a bit more notable since it allows for pure-suit armies, though.

[Bigred]

From the iTunes store: (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/book/black-legion-codex-chaos-space/id686704490?mt=11)

Expected Release: 17 August 2013
Publisher: Games Workshop
Print Length: 157 Pages
Price: $39.99

4536

4537

4538

4539

That's a lot of pages.

via Daboarder 8-17-2013


Rules/FoC Stuff:
All units must buy VotLW
Chosen are TROOPS
Terminators remain ELITES, IF you purchase Abbadon, you may upgrade 1 unit of Terminators to +1BS and WS.
Black Legion may Ally with codex: CSM (hello 4th Heldrake!)

Warlord Traits:
1. Black Crusader
2. Rerolls to Chaos Boon table for the Warlord.
3. A one-use Flamer.
4. Warlord has It Will Not Die.
5. Warlord's attacks sometimes cause Instant Death.
6. Friendly units near the Warlord gain Stubborn.

Artifacts
S: User AP3 Daemon weapon, Melee, +1I
---------------------------------------
-1 T (YIKES) Re-roll ones for Invul saves
--------------------------------------
Psyker only:
Warp charge 1-3; each charge after the first extends range by 6"
Nova Range 6" S:4 AP:5 Assault 2d6 Blind, Ignores Cover
If you fail your psychic test when using two+ warp charges - Psyker removed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
One use item; Range: unlimited, S:5 AP:4 Heavy1 LargeBlast Ignores Cover
Models with AV (vehicles) automatically take d3 penetrating hits
----------------------------------------------------------------
Grants user Eternal Warrior and Adamantium Will
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand of Darkness: S:Userx2 AP:1 Melee Fleshbane Armorbane, Instant Death

[Eberk]

From the iTunes store: (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/book/black-legion-codex-chaos-space/id686704490?mt=11)

Expected Release: 17 August 2013
Publisher: Games Workshop
Print Length: 157 Pages
Price: $39.99

Nice, very nice...

Now the wait begins for the hardback version of the book :(

[MajorWesJanson]

Nice, very nice...

Now the wait begins for the hardback version of the book :(

Then 6 months for the TPB, then 3 more months for the MMPB/Legacy edition.

[Deadlift]

I was thinking this might release might also see a new model for Abbadon, unfortunately looking though the preview pages that's not the case.

[Warlord49508]

There is a decent model for him, the FW world one, granted it is available for the low cost of your soul. Still would like to see a new one.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Until shown otherwise, I wouldn't assume any new models will accompany the supplements.

This looks like a really nice book. Lots of new missions, too!

[Gir]

Cover artwork is the best for any codex yet.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It really is.

[MrBo]

hmm urkanthos doesnt show up in a google search, new character?

[HsojVvad]

So the black legion is up for pre order.

The selling point, you must buy votlw

And chosen are troops.


**** you GW **** you

What is votlw?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Veterans of the Long War. Cheap upgrade that adds +1 Leadership and Hatred (Space Marines) [Including Blood/Dark Angels, Wolves and Grey Knights].

[Eberk]

What is votlw?

"Veterans of the Long War" - a CSM specific rule/upgrade for units/characters

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The thing, I think, which is causing consternation is that people are thinking that these are mini-codexes. They're not. You don't have to buy them. They're supplements: a combination of background book, art inspiration, colour schemes and markings, a few extra rules to create themed armies, and special scenarios. They're not going to "fix" the main codices with these books.

They're not about the rules. That's why the "rules" are only a couple of pages.

If you want to create a themed army, if you love the background and want more, if you want ideas for campaigns and bespoke scenarios between themed collections, or if you're a completist, these books are for you.

[FUZNAZ]

Where is it up for pre-order? As it isn't up on GW's site. (doesn't mean that its not up for pre-order, just want to know the source)

[Cap'nSmurfs]

On the iBooks store.

[FUZNAZ]

Ah, I see. Wait wut? you get pre orders on a digital book store...http://www.asianbite.com/photos/jackie-chan/jackie-chan-images_14807.jpg

[Phototoxin]

I was thinking this might release might also see a new model for Abbadon, unfortunately looking though the preview pages that's not the case.

When it's going physical it might have a new model and then they update the pictures in the digital version.

[daboarder]

The thing, I think, which is causing consternation is that people are thinking that these are mini-codexes. They're not. You don't have to buy them. They're supplements: a combination of background book, art inspiration, colour schemes and markings, a few extra rules to create themed armies, and special scenarios. They're not going to "fix" the main codices with these books.

They're not about the rules. That's why the "rules" are only a couple of pages.

If you want to create a themed army, if you love the background and want more, if you want ideas for campaigns and bespoke scenarios between themed collections, or if you're a completist, these books are for you.

The farsight one was most certainly a mini codex

[nathaneal246]

This supplement should not be Black Legion as they are the vanilla marines of the CSM world! It should be about either Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, or more importantly Night Lords! If they wanted to they could come up with some awesome rules and that for those legions! I want special rules for Night Lords and I want them now!

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

This supplement should not be Black Legion as they are the vanilla marines of the CSM world! It should be about either Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, or more importantly Night Lords! If they wanted to they could come up with some awesome rules and that for those legions! I want special rules for Night Lords and I want them now!I think they might be starting with the generic intentionally. I mean, if they rolled out with Harlequins, Kroot Mercs and Thousand Sons, when they got around to Iyanden, Farsight and Black Legion it'd be pretty anticlimactic.

[Eberk]

The farsight one was most certainly a mini codex

And that's why it was a shame it was released. Someone went right over the top with that "supplement".

Will anybody still play with the regular Tau Codex now their supplement is just better ??

[Eberk]

This supplement should not be Black Legion as they are the vanilla marines of the CSM world! It should be about either Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, or more importantly Night Lords! If they wanted to they could come up with some awesome rules and that for those legions! I want special rules for Night Lords and I want them now!
Their is enough fluff about the black legion to fill en entire supplement... so they deserve their own supplement (that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefered to have an Emperors Children or Iron warriors supplement first)

[daboarder]

And that's why it was a shame it was released. Someone went right over the top with that "supplement".

Will anybody still play with the regular Tau Codex now their supplement is just better ??

Considering their supplement does not let them run one of the fa oured builds for either commanders or deathstar unit. Of course they will. In fact the farsite is what the supplements SHOULD be.

Not this "aww **** here are tbe rule tbat were already in your codex to help make your army like fluffy and stuff....."

[mysterex]

I was thinking this might release might also see a new model for Abbadon, unfortunately looking though the preview pages that's not the case.

You don't really need one. He's an easy conversion using the terminator lord kit and the claw, sword and head from a second hand metal Abaddon bought off e-bay. I did one a couple of years ago as a modelling/painting exercise after seeing an example on this site.

I'll also bet that it will cost you a lot less than a newly designed finecast one

[Eberk]

Considering their supplement does not let them run one of the fa oured builds for either commanders or deathstar unit. Of course they will. In fact the farsite is what the supplements SHOULD be.

Not this "aww **** here are tbe rule tbat were already in your codex to help make your army like fluffy and stuff....."
you mean more like "here are a lot of OP rules and army builds so your army is unbeatable" kind of supplement ?


My only concern is that the (or some) supplements will unbalance the game. They were doing a good job with all the 6th edition Codexes so let's hope they don't screw it up with supplements.
People should have the option to choose a supplement because they like the fluff not being forced to use a supplement because the rules are so much better than the parent codex.

[daboarder]

you mean more like "here are a lot of OP rules and army builds so your army is unbeatable" kind of supplement ?


My only concern is that the (or some) supplements will unbalance the game. They were doing a good job with all the 6th edition Codexes so let's hope they don't screw it up with supplements.
People should have the option to choose a supplement because they like the fluff not being forced to use a supplement because the rules are so much better than the parent codex.

Oh what intelligence. Hyberbole does not make a good argument.

No what chaos players wanted was a bit of flavour and some terminator troops for the legion that kinda has a penchant for them.

Hardly OP

[MajorWesJanson]

And that's why it was a shame it was released. Someone went right over the top with that "supplement".

Will anybody still play with the regular Tau Codex now their supplement is just better ??

I do. I run Shadowsun and 0 crisis suits. Why should I run Farsight dex?

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I think they might be starting with the generic intentionally. I mean, if they rolled out with Harlequins, Kroot Mercs and Thousand Sons, when they got around to Iyanden, Farsight and Black Legion it'd be pretty anticlimactic.

After this year, we'll have 6 out of 15 armies updated - I was wondering what the hell they'd do after they are all updated and I have a feeling they might start doing codex supplements that they can produce models or even new units for. So yeah, i think you are right - start with the basics like Black legion and Iyanden then do more drastically different ones later on.

[lattd]

Plus they can do apocalypse war zones, expansions, and there's one less codex to update (sorry by players). Expect next year to be more fantasy, I wonder if they will do fantasy supplements ?

[daboarder]

Warlord Traits:

1. Black Crusader: same as CSM book

2. Decapitation Strike: If the Warlord or his unit kill the enemy Warlord, you gain an additional Victory Point.

3. Justaerian Assault: The Warlord and his unit do not scatter when
arriving from Deep-strike, but may not make a run move on the turn they
arrive. If your warlord cannot Deep-Strike, reroll this result

4. Strike them Down: One Use only- declare at the start of either your
shooting or any assault phase. The Warlord and his unit gain the
Precision Shot and Precision blow rule for the remainder of that phase,
or if they already have that rule, make precision shots/blows on a 5 or
6.

5. Black legion Elite: Chaos Terminator and Chosen units are scoring. If
you have no Chaos Terminator or Chosen squads in your army, reroll this
result.

6. Crusade Champion: One Use Only: During a challenge, the Warlord may
reroll a single to hit, to wound, or saving throw roll, or force the
opponent to do the same.

HQ modification: Lords of the Black Crusade- You may take 1-4 Chaos Lords as a single HQ selection.

Rules modification: Mark of Chaos Undivided: Model gains +1 WS and may
may choose to take any Chaos Icon. Price is same as Mark of Khorne

6 pieces of Relic Wargear

Done.

From Vesper on BnC who stated it was from
Majorwesjanson


EDIT: Wes can you confirm this? Vesper is saying he got it form you on BoLS, I don't know if this is your speculation or a rumour of what we should be getting

[MrBo]

5. Black legion Elite: Chaos Terminator and Chosen units are scoring. If
you have no Chaos Terminator or Chosen squads in your army, reroll this
result.

That contradicts what it says in the preview about chosen being troops doesnt it?

[daboarder]

good point

[DWest]

It's a wishlist, from the thread wherein the Black Legion Supplement was first discussed.

Link is here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?34196-Black-Legion-supplement-next&p=328798&viewfull=1#post328798).

[DrBored]

I'm still excited for it. I want more rules for Chaos, I don't care how watered down they are.

I mean, heck, even if there is only ONE additional Daemon Weapon, then it'll be worth it to me, just for the sake of having more options... Having 2 daemon weapons, one of which requires the Mark of Khorne, in the main Codex is pretty.. well, just plain terribad. Getting a couple more special pieces of wargear would be fantastic to me. Anything to make Chaos Lords something to really FEAR.

[MajorWesJanson]

EDIT: Wes can you confirm this? Vesper is saying he got it form you on BoLS, I don't know if this is your speculation or a rumour of what we should be getting

Complete speculation on my part. They left out that it was in response to a post asking "The legion was known for rapid decapitation strikes versus enemy command. So how would you translate that in 2 pages of rules?"

[daboarder]

Complete speculation on my part. They left out that it was in response to a post asking "The legion was known for rapid decapitation strikes versus enemy command. So how would you translate that in 2 pages of rules?"

Awesome,

Because no offence wes, compared to the tau and eldar traits....those are kinda naff.

[phreakachu]

... waiting for the World Eaters 'dex. and hopefully a 40k version of the Juggernaut Cav from fantasy.

[daboarder]

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=10400064

Intersting


The Black Legion supplement includes additional rules for Chaos Space Marine Terminators, so Ángel is sure to enjoy his unit of them

http://www.thediceabide.com/stuff/uncletouchy.jpg

How to win a challenge 101

[Stone Edwards]

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=10400064

Intersting



http://www.thediceabide.com/stuff/uncletouchy.jpg

How to win a challenge 101

Until you miss with that one attack ;)

[Power Klawz]

Damn, looks like Overlord Meanfist McBadtouch is going to get a lot of rolls on the boon table.

Too bad its Black Legion only, as I feel its a real missed opportunity to model an Emperor's Children chaos lord with one sparkly glove.

[MrBo]

after reading some of the rumors for C:SM im hoping for a rule that lets me smash wounded space marines...with a hammer

[lattd]

That special attack is not cumbersome so strikes at initiative!

[Power Klawz]

That special attack is not cumbersome so strikes at initiative!

And generally speaking against loyalists you're hitting on a 3+ with a reroll, not too shabby. That's basically a 73% chance to make anything marine flavored (That doesn't have Eternal Warrior) go away. The whole armorbane thing is ok I guess but if you wanted to run around karate chopping land raiders you'd probably take a chainfist instead and save some points.

EDIT: that 73% number is actually woefully over-optimistic when you consider invulnerable saves. With your standard marine captain rocking a 4++ the efficacy gets cut on half, you'd be better off just wailing away with a power sword and bolt pistol for less than a 3rd of the price.

[lattd]

Think armour bane is just a bonus once you have finished punching marines in the face you can then knock on a rhino and ask have you met our blood god khorne? Or maybe he wants to give that marine he put in a dreadnought all those years ago a hug.

[Power Klawz]

All in all it sounds like a really fun item but statistically I don't think it would come out ahead of many other choppy-killy choices all ready available to your average upstanding chaos lord. Especially for 50 points.

The lightning claw/chainfist combo lets you tear through rank and file a lot better, and punch holes in METUHL BAWKSES better as well. When it comes to chumping enemy characters a naked chaos lord is all ready pretty decent at it, as long as the offending personage isn't encased in terminator armor he's still going to put the massive hurt on with the clawfist.

Daemon weapons of course offer insane amounts of carnage. I think you'll always find that having more attacks is generally more desirable than having more special rules on your attacks.

The only time this item would really shine is against particular monstrous creatures and maybe against 2+ armor save HQ's that can just as easily batter your cod as you can mince their meat. The only thing its really got going for it is AP2 at initiative, but given how sturdy Chaos Marines are its not usually that big of a deal to go last and reap a bloody toll with more attacks at the same strength with a power fist.

[doogansquest]

The only time this item would really shine is against particular monstrous creatures and maybe against 2+ armor save HQ's that can just as easily batter your cod as you can mince their meat. The only thing its really got going for it is AP2 at initiative, but given how sturdy Chaos Marines are its not usually that big of a deal to go last and reap a bloody toll with more attacks at the same strength with a power fist.

That's the point: a lot of wargear now has very specific uses, instead of super-mathematically-efficient-always-use versatility. Specific tool for a specific job. Certainly worth trying out to find what you do like it for.

[Griffotronmachi]

I dunno, Chosen having to pay for Veterans and not being Fearless is mildly offensive.

[Power Klawz]

That's the point: a lot of wargear now has very specific uses, instead of super-mathematically-efficient-always-use versatility. Specific tool for a specific job. Certainly worth trying out to find what you do like it for.

I am a fan of this direction too. Although it does present a rather unique modeling challenge, how do you make a hand look menacing? Is it like evil jazz-hands?

Chosen can get a sort of limited fearless with an icon at least, until someone snipes the icon bearer. Being LD10 isn't too bad though, honestly I wish they'd get rid of ATSKNF and make fearless and the like much less prevalent, bring back some of the impact psychology used to have and add another layer to the game instead of "LOL fear USR is teh awfulz"

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Unsure why the Starscreams of 40k should be Fearless, exactly. ;)

[daboarder]

So legion reports are starting to filter in.

All units must buy VotLW
Chosen ARE troops
Terminators are NOT, However, IF you take abbadon, you get the super special privileged of paying MORE points, for ONE unit of terminators to get +1BS and WS...and no Abby DOES NOT get a discount for the chosen to troops move not being a thing anymore....

on a plus note:

4 heldrake lists are now a thing, you get to ally with C:CSM
apparently the wargear and warlord traits are nice, they are going to have to be pretty good in terms of opening up new avenues of play and alternate lord builds to beat the burning brand as an option.

edit: Nope! not likely


There's a new Daemon Sword, slightly cheaper than the Axe of a Blind Fury. Gives a bonus to initiative. Should've always been in the codex, IMHO.

There's an awesome artefact that allows the bearer to fire an unlimited range large blast that scores D3 automatic penetrating hits to any vehicle it touches, usable once per game. Very expensive, though.

A psyker-only artefact increases the bearer's mastery by 1, though it doesn't allow him to generate another power (boo). Instead, it gives him a Nova power that increases range with more Warp Charge points.

Oh hey, an artefact that gives Eternal Warrior and Adamanitium Will. Nice. Not cheap, though.

Warlord Traits:
1. Black Crusader
2. Rerolls to Chaos Boon table for the Warlord.
3. A one-use Flamer. Woo.
4. Warlord has IWND.
5. Attacks have a chance of causing Instant Death.
6. Friendly units near the Warlord have Stubborn.


so.....WOOO yeah Who loves sub-par warlord traits? I guess we chaos players must do, we keep getting them.

I particularly like how our supplement only gave us 4 new traits instead of 6 like the others.......

[The Sovereign]

Yeah, sounds pretty underwhelming compared to the Farsight and Iyanden minidexes. :/

[The Sovereign]

Double post

[daboarder]

----------------------------------------------------------------
S: user ap3 daemon weapon melee
+1 I
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-1 T (yep... -1 T)
Re-roll ones for invuln saves

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Psyker only-
Warp charge 1-3 each charge after the first extends range by 6"
Nova
Range 6"
S 4
Ap 5
Assault 2d6
Blind
Ignore cover

If you fail your psychic test when using two+ warp charge goodbye
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One use
Range: infinite
Strength 5
Ap 4
Heavy 1
Large blast
Ignores cover
Instead of making armor pen rolls models with armor values take d3 penetrating hits
----------------------------------------------------------------



eternal warrior and adamantium will
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand of darkness as per iPad teaser

don't look great to be honest.

-1T to re-roll 1's on what, as per the rules, can be AT BEST a 3++? No thanks......ever!

The nova would be awesome fun, pop 3 charges and get an 18" zone of anti infantry....except for the autokill.

This just all appears to be written with 5th ed in mind.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It's written for sixth. It's just that it's a supplement for creating a themed army and themed scenarios to run it in, not a new codex. Extra stuff built on the CSM template, not a 'fix' for that book. It's not like the Iyanden book was much different.

I can understand your disappointment and if you're underwhelmed, but it feels like you were hoping the book was going to be something it was never going to be.

[Kirsten]

It's written for sixth. It's just that it's a supplement for creating a themed army and themed scenarios to run it in, not a new codex. Extra stuff built on the CSM template, not a 'fix' for that book. It's not like the Iyanden book was much different.

I can understand your disappointment and if you're underwhelmed, but it feels like you were hoping the book was going to be something it was never going to be.

I agree completely, looks like an interesting supplement to me.

[RGilbert26]

A friend of mine will be getting a refund for his ipad version as he expected more and is unhappy with what he got.

[eldargal]

Can you get refunds because expectations weren't met?

[daboarder]

Dependd on the country

[RGilbert26]

Apparently after buying on the iBook store you have x amount of time to get a refund, or something.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I like the concept behind the Oath-Broken, I funnily had a similar idea with the necrons (fixed themselves with spare parts from enemies they foguht ect). Stuff like that definitely adds more colour and depth to the Black Legion - glad they did this one first really as I always found the BL to be rather boring and vanilla - and so far the new fluff is helping to correct that.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Anyone willing to share some of the juicy nuggets of new background, and give us an idea of what the new scenarios and stratagems are like? :)

[Bigred]

Collated for clarity:

From the iTunes store: (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/book/black-legion-codex-chaos-space/id686704490?mt=11)

Expected Release: 17 August 2013
Publisher: Games Workshop
Print Length: 157 Pages
Price: $39.99

4536

4537

4538

4539

That's a lot of pages.

via Daboarder 8-17-2013


Rules/FoC Stuff:
All units must buy VotLW
Chosen are TROOPS
Terminators remain ELITES, IF you purchase Abbadon, you may upgrade 1 unit of Terminators to +1BS and WS.
Black Legion may Ally with codex: CSM (hello 4th Heldrake!)

Warlord Traits:
1. Black Crusader
2. Rerolls to Chaos Boon table for the Warlord.
3. A one-use Flamer.
4. Warlord has It Will Not Die.
5. Warlord's attacks sometimes cause Instant Death.
6. Friendly units near the Warlord gain Stubborn.

Artifacts
S: User AP3 Daemon weapon, Melee, +1I
---------------------------------------
-1 T (YIKES) Re-roll ones for Invul saves
--------------------------------------
Psyker only:
Warp charge 1-3; each charge after the first extends range by 6"
Nova Range 6" S:4 AP:5 Assault 2d6 Blind, Ignores Cover
If you fail your psychic test when using two+ warp charges - Psyker removed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
One use item; Range: unlimited, S:5 AP:4 Heavy1 LargeBlast Ignores Cover
Models with AV (vehicles) automatically take d3 penetrating hits
----------------------------------------------------------------
Grants user Eternal Warrior and Adamantium Will
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand of Darkness: S:Userx2 AP:1 Melee Fleshbane Armorbane, Instant Death

[Death Shroud]

Really don't get why they went with Black Legion when out of all the Chaos Legions they least in need of some extra rules to make a fluffy army. Think of the potential for other legions! Four the four cult powers they could have rules allowing cult versions of other unit types (Noise marine havocs, sonic weaponry on vehicles, Raptor/Berzerkers, Sorceror covens, Death Guard Terminators) as well as bonus rules for allying with daemons of the same god (using marine banners as summoning points for the daemons. They could balance this with preventing certain armies from using certain units as a trade off (no havocs for Khorne, no oblits for slaanesh and so on).
The other non-cult legions have some good characterful hooks to base expansions on:
Alpha Legion - Expanded cultist options, new ally options to show tricksy nature, lot's of sneaky rules and traits.
Night Lords - Raptors as troops, moral damaging abilities, stealth (maybe with a trade off on heavy vehicles)
Iron Warriors - "borrowed" artillery is returned. Siege rules, extended warsmith options.
Word Bearers - Extended cultist and daemonic ally rules (I quite like the idea of being able to summon a unit of daemons "into" a unit of cultists.

Why go with Black Legion, especially since it sounds as if they've not been able to come up with much good (no-one seems majorly excited about taking chosen as troops!).

[Big Jim]

What a worthless supplement. They did nothing to entice people to really run out and buy this at all. Not a single fix for crappy unmarked marines, but instead they gave us a VotLW tax for every last one of them. You are drunk GW go the heck home.

[Kirsten]

Print Length: 157 Pages
That's a lot of pages.

probably isn't that many in hardback, the iyanden book was listed as a similar number of pages on iTunes as well, but the hardback of course is much smaller.

people complaining about 'why black legion?' are missing again the fact that these are not just rules supplements, they are mainly background books with a few tweaks to the army.

[Power Klawz]

Man I don't know. Uber uber leet chaos termies is pretty much what I wanted out of this. I feel my expectations have been met. Chosen as troops without needing Abby is pretty neato too. It's basically a recipe for the slightly more elite CSM army, which probably won't win many tournaments but seems like a blast to play with.

Now if they'd only come out with a new plastic set for chosen with sculpts on par with the boxed set and more customization. Honestly I'm just waiting for new plastics for CSM, then they can have all the moneys.

All the emphasis on the rules and people raging about how the rules haven't made CSM a completely broken all killy list are really aggravating. What did you expect? All blask legion have WS/BS10 for 2 extra points, and a 3+ invuln just because. Seriously if you didn't like the rules in the 6th edition dex what made you think they'd be so drastically changed in a supplement?

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Plus, we're likely still in the overall testing phase. Which means you sell those that will sell.

Cult books are likely to be done once they're happy this format works.

[Bowman]

Fluff wise buying veterans of the long war does make some sense - during the heresy and its immediate aftermath the BL suffered heavy losses and Abbadon has been rebuilding ever since. He has also been massively expanding the BL, absorbing more recent renegades as he builds up for the 13th Black Crusade. Hence 10k + year old veterans are likely few and far between and thus come at a premium. Even chosen and terminators promoted or adopted recently won't be votlw.

Game wise it helps balance out the chosen wing and super Terminator options

I agree the cost is high for what is in effect a few rules added to a glossy hardback advert catalogue. Too much to hope there is some interesting fluff?

[Chaoschrist]

4 heldrake lists are now a thing, you get to ally with C:CSM


Ooooooh... you could probably cram 4 heldrake + 12 Oblits lists (assuming Black legion has those as well)... and pretty much mandatory cultists and the cheapest HQ's (dual Sorcerors) under 2000 pts.

Sounds like fun :rolleyes:

[FUZNAZ]

Lol shall we count the hours till there is a PDF copy made from Ipad screen shots.

[Chaoschrist]

Lol shall we count the hours till there is a PDF copy made from Ipad screen shots.

Well.. no one is stopping you to start counting ;)

I'm still waiting for the farsight one though :')

[Griffotronmachi]

Fluff wise buying veterans of the long war does make some sense - during the heresy and its immediate aftermath the BL suffered heavy losses and Abbadon has been rebuilding ever since. He has also been massively expanding the BL, absorbing more recent renegades as he builds up for the 13th Black Crusade. Hence 10k + year old veterans are likely few and far between and thus come at a premium. Even chosen and terminators promoted or adopted recently won't be votlw.

Game wise it helps balance out the chosen wing and super Terminator options

I agree the cost is high for what is in effect a few rules added to a glossy hardback advert catalogue. Too much to hope there is some interesting fluff?

I'm sorry but no, just no, Chosen are supposed to be good, and at 18 pts per model, to have to buy veterans? makes them not good. Not only that but they're STILL not fearless which comes at an extra tax! if you look at it like that, you're paying 25 pts for the banner, 2 pts per model for vets on top of 18 pts per model, before upgrades you have a 5 man unit that you're paying 25 pts per model for BEFORE upgrades. In this one, GW has not represented the fluff at all well in their rules execution.

[eldargal]

What a worthless supplement. They did nothing to entice people to really run out and buy this at all. Not a single fix for crappy unmarked marines, but instead they gave us a VotLW tax for every last one of them. You are drunk GW go the heck home.
If you think so, don't buy it. Personally I'll be purchasing it despite not collecting CSM simply because I want to read what new background on post-HH activities for the Traitor Legions. If you like the background, you know, the thing that makes 40k special, the supplements are far from worthless.

[daboarder]

Word is the single use blast is 75 pts........WTF!!?

[Caitsidhe]

Am I impressed? No. Do I see some nice, competitive changes? Yes. Being able to ally with a standard CSM army has lots of value, and I'm not talking about four Helldrakes (I never run more than two now... if that many). The key to making assault work is being able to take Huron, a Lord or Special Character to make a Cult Troop scoring, and still get a Daemon Prince w/Black Mace. We couldn't do that before. We can now. Moreover, we will have one scoring Chosen unit in each army loaded up with special weapons. It brings back the outflanking Chosen of last Edition without the idiotic need to put Abbadon on the board.

Most of the games I play are 1850 these days and being able to play with my Force Org is very key. A good all comers list has options, and careful application of this supplement will provide those options. Of course, there will be people spamming Helldrakes and more Obliterators. I can't say I'm not somewhat gleeful about the option of putting twelve on the board just to see what it does. The option not to have to give up a slot for Obliterators to get a single Land Raider (nor having to take Terminators) also has an appeal.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Edit: NVM

[Deadlift]

I will be honest, from a background pov I'm finding the Black Legion (now) more interesting than the loyalist Codex that's in the pipeline. Where as what were seeing from the rumours hasent really intrigued me, the chaos stuff has.

[Denzark]

Fluff wise buying veterans of the long war does make some sense - during the heresy and its immediate aftermath the BL suffered heavy losses and Abbadon has been rebuilding ever since. Hence 10k + year old veterans are likely few and far between and thus come at a premium. Even chosen and terminators promoted or adopted recently won't be votlw.




Technically speaking the Long War is the bit that goes on between HH and the current timeline. Veterans of this are not therefore, necessarily HH legionnaires. If you were charitable and stated a thousand years of warfare is quite long, then veterans of this length are far more likely to be knocking around. Anyway, I don't think Veterans get much choice about joining Abaddon, do you? His recruitment department brings a whole new meaning to the term 'head-hunted'.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Given that time moves strangely in the Warp and the Eye of Terror/Maelstrom, almost none of the Veterans of the Long War have experienced ten thousand subjective years. The thousand years of constant war noted above is probably at the high end! As I recall, First Claw from ADB's Night Lords series had been rattling around for about another subjective century or so in the 10,000 Terran years since they fled the Siege of the Emperor's Palace. So they've had subjective careers of about three hundred years, and I'll challenge anyone to suggest First Claw aren't Veterans of the Long War.

Well, serial runners-away from the Long War, maybe, but you don't get a special rule for that. ;)

The point of the Black Legion rules seems to be to bring home that this is the rock-hard core of the biggest, baddest fighting unit active in the galaxy at the present time. These aren't just any Chaos Space Marines but the double-hard vanguard of the Warmaster of Chaos. Yes, that means they're a bit more expensive. But Abaddon gets what he pays for.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Given that time moves strangely in the Warp and the Eye of Terror/Maelstrom, almost none of the Veterans of the Long War have experienced ten thousand subjective years. The thousand years of constant war noted above is probably at the high end!Why do we assume the Eye of Terror only "shortens" time - it's just as reasonable to assume there are chaos marines out there who've been fighting for 100,000 years.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It is, and it's a possibility I'm amenable to, although I doubt anyone's survived that long. I mean, constant war in hell.

[daboarder]

It is, and it's a possibility I'm amenable to, although I doubt anyone's survived that long. I mean, constant war in hell.

Which is a huge contradiction to what is told to us in the introduction of what a chaos space marine army represents.

Either CHAOS marines are 10000 years old, hence their access to only heresy era and daemon tech.

Or they are recent renegades.....in which case they should have access to everything from assualt cannons to crusaders and storm ravens.

[White Tiger88]

Everyone has Assault cannons in the heresy novels now..........

[AnEnemy]

Why do we assume the Eye of Terror only "shortens" time - it's just as reasonable to assume there are chaos marines out there who've been fighting for 100,000 years.

You could question the canonicity as it was featured in Nick Kyme's first Salamanders novel, but there is an Astartes in that novel that had been alive and in real time since the Heresy. He practically fell apart when he was found.

Astartes can claim immortality since it's rarely put to the test, but in all honesty...do you think the Emperor seemed like the sort to create hundreds of thousands of super soldiers to conquer the galaxy for him and then...what...sit around watching soap operas? I doubt he made anyone to live 100,000 years. He designed the Golden Throne to keep Magnus alive in perpetuity. Making the inference that even a Primarch can die of old age a reasonable one.

Sure, you're talking about Chaos Marines and one of the ruinous powers could surely extend their life span, but at that point you're reaching Daemon Prince territory. Not exactly something every traitor can attain. Not to mention the impossible task of keeping one of the Chaos Gods happy and attentive for 100,000 years without being turned into a Spawn.

Even in a world where baby corpses are hollowed out and made to carry parchment there are things that are a bit much to accept with a smile.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Daboarder, I kind of agree with you, and I wish the Heresy novels would stop giving traitor marines storm bolters and so on, because they've never been able to have them in the game. Where did all that stuff go? Maybe it'll be explained when we get to the end of things.

On the age thing, it's worth bearing in mind that different gene has odd effects on aging among the legions and their successors. The Blood Angels are notoriously long lived if they can avoid the Black Rage - Dante has been Chapter Master for at least 1,100 years; who knows how old he actually is. The Space Wolves also can go for a while, Logan Grimnar is at least 700. Ultramarines don't seem to last as long, I think Cassius is the oldest, at about 400. And he's more machine now than man, twisted and unspeakably heroic.

The other problem is that Space Marines are always fighting. Unless you're double hard or have some kind of dark pact, something's gonna kill you eventually.

[daboarder]

The other problem is that Space Marines are always fighting. Unless you're double hard or have some kind of dark pact, something's gonna kill you eventually.

Which is kinda the point, by the time of 40k the traitor marines ARE meant to be that dead ard. but the rules just continue to fail to live up to the fluff. Chosen and posessed should be of GK levels of bad *** by now. I mean thats kinda the reason why GK's are as hard as they are.

Furthermore the argument people put forth that the lgeions are shattered is equally silly. while the legions MAY be only warbands now (and not all of them are, alpha, Black, Word and most of the death aren't) That doesn't mean they are not going to continue to operate the way they ALWAYS HAVE.

Take the first war for Armageddon for example (remember the WE's were ther MOST shattered legion after skalathrax), takes place in M41 with Angron himself leading the legion and followers into battle, in particular, fighting THE WAY THEY ALWAYS HAVE.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

To be fair, Angron and the World Eaters always kind of went to war as if they were Khorne Berzerkers. That's the sad irony. ;)

I think you're underselling the difference between the 40k Traitors and the Heresy-Era Legions. In the Heresy, the Legions lost everything - loyalty, honour, restraint. They turned into the amoral, individualistic champions of uncaring Dark Gods. Personal glory replaced Legion loyalty. Their traditions and ways of were were subverted and twisted to foul ends. The Death Guard had always been about enduring no matter what, but a Plague Marine is much more - and also much less - than a doggedly brave mortal Astartes.

And then they lost the Heresy - some of them lost their Primarchs, others had Primarchs who just didn't care about them anymore. And they fought a vicious war amongst themselves in Hell, which destroyed much of what was left of their old codes and traditions.

There's some vestiges left of the Legions and their ways of war, but they're vestigial. Take the Iron Warriors: they still conduct sieges, but they spend most of their time squabbling, fighting and jockeying for position amongst themselves. The Word Bearers look united, but they're not: the Dark Apostles are split and fighting with one another, pursuing their own paths to the Universal Truth. Kor Phaeron and Erebus hate each other , and Lorgar hasn't broken his meditation for thousands of years.

The Black Legion isn't the Sons of Horus. The Sons were a scalpel, drilled and disciplined to a single purpose. The Black Legion is a supermassive agglomeration of sundry heretics and traitors, whipped into the very bluntest of blunt instruments by Abaddon's will. The creation of the Black Legion itself is an epic story of unspeakable violence and bloodshed.

So the Legions aren't what they were, and they don't fight in exactly the ways they used to (although the World Eaters still assault, the Night Lords still sow terror, the Alpha Legion was always organised on a cell-structure so little really changed). They're scattered and diminished as legions, but often more powerful as individuals.

As to the tabletop... well, sure, if every army precisely reflected its background, then yes, the longest survivors of the Traitor Legions are the baddest of the bad. But then ten Space Marines would also be able to kill 100 Orks, the Eldar would almost never turn up on the battlefield (instead you'd roll a d6 to see if they tricked you all along or something) and the Tyranids would be unrestricted by Force Organisation or points. It's an abstraction. Chaos Lords are better than Space Marine Captains by an appreciable amount, and with Marks and Daemon Weapons, they can be so much greater it isn't even funny. Chaos Space Marines aren't Fearless, but they shouldn't be. They have no loyalty to anything but themselves. They run away when it's prudent.

And you can totally build Legion-style armies. You can do it with the four marked Legions easily. Some of the others need judicious use of Allies, but Allies are part of the game now for a reason - one of those reasons is so you can do these kinds of lists; have artillery contingents for your Iron Warriors or Traitor Guardsmen for your Alpha Legion.

But this is the most important point: what's left of the Traitor Legions in the 40k setting are NOT the Heresy-Era Legions. Too much time passed, too many events occurred. They're the dim echoes of former greatness, in the same way that the Space Marine Chapters are so much less than the old legion used to be. 40k is the end of a long, drawn-out decline. The Great Crusade was their Golden Age of Heroes; it failed, and nothing after that was ever quite as good. It's a really old dramatic trope (one of the oldest).

[Deadlift]

Brilliant Cap.
Great writing and explanation.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Thanks! Spellinga and grammar flubs are due to iPad typing~

[Demonus]

I bet necron overlords are chomping at the bit to face some new insta deathing ap1 kill fist legionaires. pray you make that leadership test lad!

[daboarder]

To be fair, Angron and the World Eaters always kind of went to war as if they were Khorne Berzerkers. That's the sad irony. ;)

Yup, a khorne bezerker army, complete with full support options......which the chaos codex cannot buid....

I think you're underselling the difference between the 40k Traitors and the Heresy-Era Legions. In the Heresy, the Legions lost everything - loyalty, honour, restraint. They turned into the amoral, individualistic champions of uncaring Dark Gods. Personal glory replaced Legion loyalty. Their traditions and ways of were were subverted and twisted to foul ends. The Death Guard had always been about enduring no matter what, but a Plague Marine is much more - and also much less - than a doggedly brave mortal Astartes.

And then they lost the Heresy - some of them lost their Primarchs, others had Primarchs who just didn't care about them anymore. And they fought a vicious war amongst themselves in Hell, which destroyed much of what was left of their old codes and traditions.

There's some vestiges left of the Legions and their ways of war, but they're vestigial. Take the Iron Warriors: they still conduct sieges, but they spend most of their time squabbling, fighting and jockeying for position amongst themselves. The Word Bearers look united, but they're not: the Dark Apostles are split and fighting with one another, pursuing their own paths to the Universal Truth. Kor Phaeron and Erebus hate each other , and Lorgar hasn't broken his meditation for thousands of years.

The Black Legion isn't the Sons of Horus. The Sons were a scalpel, drilled and disciplined to a single purpose. The Black Legion is a supermassive agglomeration of sundry heretics and traitors, whipped into the very bluntest of blunt instruments by Abaddon's will. The creation of the Black Legion itself is an epic story of unspeakable violence and bloodshed.

So the Legions aren't what they were, and they don't fight in exactly the ways they used to (although the World Eaters still assault, the Night Lords still sow terror, the Alpha Legion was always organised on a cell-structure so little really changed). They're scattered and diminished as legions, but often more powerful as individuals.

As to the tabletop... well, sure, if every army precisely reflected its background, then yes, the longest survivors of the Traitor Legions are the baddest of the bad. But then ten Space Marines would also be able to kill 100 Orks, the Eldar would almost never turn up on the battlefield (instead you'd roll a d6 to see if they tricked you all along or something) and the Tyranids would be unrestricted by Force Organisation or points. It's an abstraction. Chaos Lords are better than Space Marine Captains by an appreciable amount, and with Marks and Daemon Weapons, they can be so much greater it isn't even funny. Chaos Space Marines aren't Fearless, but they shouldn't be. They have no loyalty to anything but themselves. They run away when it's prudent.

And you can totally build Legion-style armies. You can do it with the four marked Legions easily. Some of the others need judicious use of Allies, but Allies are part of the game now for a reason - one of those reasons is so you can do these kinds of lists; have artillery contingents for your Iron Warriors or Traitor Guardsmen for your Alpha Legion.

No you cannot, unless of course I missed the T5 I3 FNP support options and HQ's in the codex.

But this is the most important point: what's left of the Traitor Legions in the 40k setting are NOT the Heresy-Era Legions. Too much time passed, too many events occurred. They're the dim echoes of former greatness, in the same way that the Space Marine Chapters are so much less than the old legion used to be. 40k is the end of a long, drawn-out decline. The Great Crusade was their Golden Age of Heroes; it failed, and nothing after that was ever quite as good. It's a really old dramatic trope (one of the oldest).
I can agree with that. Can I get my daemon infantry guns, veteran skills, squad wide mutations and archeotech now?


This is just a non directed expression now cap,
I've always found it funny that people expect chaos to
1) be bland in the name of "warbands"
2)expect that loyalists are justified in having significant table top differences between their chapters AGAINST THE EXPRESS DECREE OF THE CODEX ASTARTES
3) and then think that chaos players should be happy because a book that covered the legions would be "too big" OH HELLO SPACE MARINES!

ultimately it all comes back to most people still crying about the 3.5 codex, because the broken parts were access to multiple oblit squads and 4 heavy support choices....oh HELLO IMPERIAL GUARD!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Honestly, I agree that if Marines are going to have Chapter Tactics style rules then so should the traitors. I'm not a huge fan of Marine-favouritism, even if I do understand it and it doesn't bother me much.

[DrBored]

This is just a non directed expression now cap,
I've always found it funny that people expect chaos to
1) be bland in the name of "warbands"
2)expect that loyalists are justified in having significant table top differences between their chapters AGAINST THE EXPRESS DECREE OF THE CODEX ASTARTES
3) and then think that chaos players should be happy because a book that covered the legions would be "too big" OH HELLO SPACE MARINES!

ultimately it all comes back to most people still crying about the 3.5 codex, because the broken parts were access to multiple oblit squads and 4 heavy support choices....oh HELLO IMPERIAL GUARD!

I started Chaos Marines near the twilight of 4th edition and started playing more seriously when 5th edition came around. Even then, I recognized early on that the (then) current edition of Chaos Marines was bogus, with only a few viable options, and no real support to any of the juicy fluff that they have, or the wild variation in weapons and warfare and character that can be found within the former Legions.

Now, to go from that into the 6th edition codex where so little has changed... Phil Kelly did us an injustice when he deigned to design the new codex as an 'homage to the previous edition' (not making this up, this is what he said), because he could have made it so much more. When people heard Phil Kelly was writing CSM, everyone was eager for a whole revamp, like the grand success story of Dark Eldar.

So you see, the disappointment now rises exponentially. As Chaos players we...
1. Are mad that we didn't get the same treatment as Dark Eldar
2. Are mad that we aren't getting the same treatment as Space Marines
3. Are mad that we aren't getting the same treatment in Supplements as the Farsight Enclave

With each subsequent release, Chaos Marines fall a little farther, and in part that should be expected with Codex Creep, but as Chaos players, we know that there are at LEAST 5 distinct forms of Chaos (Undivided and the 4 Gods) and none are being represented in any meaningful way. To me it's not about the toys. I like the Heldrake as a model (granted I had to do a little converting to make it fly straight instead of the eternal banking it's doing) and I like the Forgefiend and I still like all the other weapons and tanks that Chaos has (Defiler, etc). I don't mind that Space Marines are getting Graviton weapons or that Tau and Eldar got giant expensive robots. I don't care about any of that.

I think I can speak for a lot of Chaos players when I say that the really MEANINGFUL change that we want... is substance. Not fluff, there's plenty of books for that, we wan't substance in our Codex, substance that will let us truly WORSHIP the Chaos God of our choice through our armies, or truly EXPERIENCE a battle through the strategies of the Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors, or really ENJOY the way the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons do battle.

If you're going to throw us a bland Codex and hide under the 'But you can make your own!' excuse, and then turn around and give each major Space Marine chapter its own army-wide rules (like Chaos players have been BEGGING for) and expect us to just take it quietly, that's not going to happen.

I understand the business side of things (I majored in it for crying out loud), I understand that at the end of the day it comes down to sales and that Space Marines are here to stay, and they'll be the biggest out of everyone, but it wouldn't have taken much, not much at all, to have satisfied the Chaos players. All it would have taken were maybe two or three extra pages of rules to lay out a few more options for different legions and warbands, and how to make them truly your own.

I can only hope that the supplements coming down the road will give us that, but really they can't come fast enough.

[Kirsten]

I think the problem with chaos is the designers are too used to seeing the cult troops have the god specific rules. so loyalist marines get chapter tactics, and designers look at chaos and think well they have four different cult troops. I would make them optional for the army as a whole, rather than having to base the army on a specific unit. it does get slightly more tricky in that you can have an army of multiple gods or legions, where you don't see mixed chapter space marines, but I do feel essentially that designers need to get out of the habit of looking at the cult troops as the source of flavour. the marks and icons for squads are at least an improvement, but they leave undivided players rather bland.

[DrBored]

I think the problem with chaos is the designers are too used to seeing the cult troops have the god specific rules. so loyalist marines get chapter tactics, and designers look at chaos and think well they have four different cult troops. I would make them optional for the army as a whole, rather than having to base the army on a specific unit. it does get slightly more tricky in that you can have an army of multiple gods or legions, where you don't see mixed chapter space marines, but I do feel essentially that designers need to get out of the habit of looking at the cult troops as the source of flavour. the marks and icons for squads are at least an improvement, but they leave undivided players rather bland.

Yes, that could be part of it. The trouble is that in making each of these individual cult troops, because GW doesn't do a LOT of balancing, you end up with one or two troops that are better than the rest and become the obvious choice. In the latest Codex, those troops aren't even unlocked unless you take a specific Lord, and that pigeonholes you further.

I would have liked to have seen it like this...

Nix Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and Khorne Berzerkers entirely. Instead, you could call it something like 'Legion Legacy' that would act very much like Chapter Tactics, with little buffs here and there and little changes to certain units.

Then you'd have, on top of that, a Chaos God Devotion that you can choose to lay over a specific UNIT. You would have Undivided, Tzeentch, Khorne, Slaanesh, and Nurgle, and each one would cost a certain number of points depending on the armor save or unit type of the model (broken into 2+, 3+, MC, Vehicle, and IC) that would act similar to marks, and would open up certain weapon options, like Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters for Slaanesh troops, Chain axes for Khorne troops, Blight Grenades and Plague Knives for Nurgle, and Inferno Bolters and Aspiring Sorcerers for Tzeentch. Undivided could give you options for Stubborn, or other wargear.

Having this God Devotion per unit would be a big chunk of rules, and would probably take up a page each, but upon those pages would be everything you need to make your army exactly how you want it, with Blastmaster-toting Havocs, Chainaxe wielding Raptors, and Inferno-bolt equipped Terminators lead by Terminator Sorcerers, and maybe even Plague Bikers that have Blight Grenades. Would some options be broken? Yeah, invariably, but with careful measure of how points are assigned to these upgrades, we could have something akin to balance, and more options than we've ever had before.

We'd finally then be able to create legions devoted to one god, warbands that have different squads, or whatever kind of army we like, fluffy or WAAC. And then Chaos players could finally shut up.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

No. Some people will always complain, whatever they're given. This is an Iron Law of Reality.

[daboarder]

No. Some people will always complain, whatever they're given. This is an Iron Law of Reality.

But it wouldnt be the chaos players ;)

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It would be, though, at least some of y'all (I mean, it's not like you're a homogenous group that all thinks as one!).

[Power Klawz]

Honestly I don't have too many problems with the current CSM army. I think people are just up in arms over the upcoming SM release where every chapter gets to be a special snowflake with its own rules right out of the standard codex. I guess its rather fitting that CSM players would be spiteful and covetous of other's toys though haha.

I'm looking forward to future CSM supplements, hopefully they can flesh out some of the less often seen warbands. It would be amazing if they did further releases along with them too. (I was really hoping they'd make a plastic chosen box set for the Black Legion release... oh well.)

[DrBored]

It would be, though, at least some of y'all (I mean, it's not like you're a homogenous group that all thinks as one!).

But we are!

Heck, think back.. I'm sure there were complaints back in 3rd edition, and I'm sure there were people that didn't like the 3.5 Codex... but ever since then the complaints have gotten louder.. with each edition and each Codex the complaints have gotten bigger and louder and ever more justified thanks to the comparative treatment between Chaos Marines and other armies...

It's only gotten even more pronounced with the double insult of a massive Space Marine release coupled with a rather insulting Black Legion supplement (though some of the options *do* look like they could be fun, it's still underwhelming for what it is), the only way to really shut us up will be to release something that will get our attention and hold it for a while.

Like a new Chosen box... or a supplement for one of the Undivided legions... or new Plague Marines.. Like seriously, the current Plague Marines are a whole head shorter than all the other marines, what the crap?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yes, Chaos Space Marines are literally the only army with old models and weird proportions.

They release 3-4 new plastic kits and some odds and ends every release. CSM were even way ahead of this because they're in the starter box. CSM got a starter set with new cultists, new Chosen, a cool plastic Lord, then new Raptors/Talons, the Heldrake, Forge/Maulerfiend, the Dark Apostle, Warpsmith, a plastic Champion, Mutilators and a new Havoc sergeant. That's not a small amount of new stuff. Eldar got three characters, a megakit, a plane and wraithguard. There's also all the things currently available in the HH range. They're almost certainly going to supplementise all the Legions.

CSM received a lot. Sure it's not all what everyone wanted, and Marines are Marines, but a 'double insult' strains credibility.

Increasingly loud negative opinions is literally irl 'the internet'. I wasn't aware of much annoyance at the 3rd ed book, but then neither I nor half the wargaming world was online.

[daboarder]

Cap. Chaos is the only army not to recieve a new special chacter, sculpt or rules....in over ten years (ok sob but they dont count)

[DarkLink]

The thing, I think, which is causing consternation is that people are thinking that these are mini-codexes. They're not. You don't have to buy them. They're supplements: a combination of background book, art inspiration, colour schemes and markings, a few extra rules to create themed armies, and special scenarios. They're not going to "fix" the main codices with these books.

They're not about the rules. That's why the "rules" are only a couple of pages. People are annoyed because they've finally gotten them, and they're roughly of the same quality rules as GW's infamous White Dwarf BA and Sisters army lists.

If you want to create a themed army, if you love the background and want more, if you want ideas for campaigns and bespoke scenarios between themed collections, or if you're a completist, these books are for you.

But people have been asking for mini-codices for a long, long time now.



People should have the option to choose a supplement because they like the fluff not being forced to use a supplement because the rules are so much better than the parent codex.

None of the supplements have been nearly that impressive.


I do. I run Shadowsun and 0 crisis suits. Why should I run Farsight dex?

Also, Farsight doesn't get any of the fancy Commander special wargear, unless you take specific special characters. The characters aren't bad, but none of them are the concentrated awesome of a Commander with Iridium Armor, PEN chip, and all the other toys.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Cap. Chaos is the only army not to recieve a new special chacter, sculpt or rules....in over ten years (ok sob but they dont count)

Man, even this is wrong. Huron Blackheart's model and rules are from the 4th edition book in 2007.

[daboarder]

...ok yeah I forgot about him

[Cap'nSmurfs]

He's pretty forgettable. :)

[DrBored]

Yes, Chaos Space Marines are literally the only army with old models and weird proportions.

They release 3-4 new plastic kits and some odds and ends every release. CSM were even way ahead of this because they're in the starter box. CSM got a starter set with new cultists, new Chosen, a cool plastic Lord, then new Raptors/Talons, the Heldrake, Forge/Maulerfiend, the Dark Apostle, Warpsmith, a plastic Champion, Mutilators and a new Havoc sergeant. That's not a small amount of new stuff. Eldar got three characters, a megakit, a plane and wraithguard. There's also all the things currently available in the HH range. They're almost certainly going to supplementise all the Legions.

CSM received a lot. Sure it's not all what everyone wanted, and Marines are Marines, but a 'double insult' strains credibility.

Increasingly loud negative opinions is literally irl 'the internet'. I wasn't aware of much annoyance at the 3rd ed book, but then neither I nor half the wargaming world was online.

Ok, let's talk. The Dark Vengeance Box. 100 USD gets you two forces, a mini rulebook, everything else you need to play the game. On the Chaos Side we get some beautiful models that really push the aesthetic of Chaos to a whole new level. The Lord and Chosen, with a little conversion in some cases, make fantastic Champions and getting 20 Cultists to start is great for most Chaos players, and with some chopping and converting you can give all of them close combat weapons and pistols, the ideal load-out for them.

Let's start the complaining by saying the Helbrute, while a beautiful model, is worthless. You can relatively easily convert it to have different, more useful weapons, but that doesn't change the fact that the Helbrute as a Codex entry is worthless. Even after a FAQ'd points decrease, it is still not worth putting into an army. It has no deployment method other than trundling up the field and it's rules don't do it any favors at all. There's one chunk of the Chaos side that's left in the dust.

The Cultists and Chosen are a one-shot buy. I don't want more than one box. They start to get horrendously samey, especially since they all have certain poses that will make duplicates stand out painfully in an army. Yes, it's easy enough to convert Cultists from other things, so I can't complain much about not having a Cultist box, though it would be nice to have something to get lots of actual Chaos Cultists with all the options that they can have right out of one box.

The Mutilators and Warp Talons are worthless, Raptors are ok and are indeed beautiful models, and at the very least the box is a great way to get lots of Lightning Claws. The Maulerfiend and Forgefiend are situational at best and the Dark Apostle and Warpsmith.. well, I've never seen one in any list or on any table, fluffy or not. The other models are nice, but suffer from the same problem as the Chosen - you only need one and the load-outs they come with are not necessarily ideal.

That leaves the Heldrake as the only thing that's worth getting, and even then you only want 2, else you risk going into 'That Guy' territory. I had to do some serious cutting and greenstuffing to get it to fly level, instead of eternally banking like a car with smaller wheels on one side.

A Helturkey and Cultists, that's all that's really worth getting in any significance out of the whole release of Chaos Marines. It's not the models fault though, really. The Codex assigned all of these things certain levels of effectiveness and value. It made Mutilators and Warp Talons, potentially beautiful models, totally useless and it made the Heldrake what it is today.

And on top of it all, the Codex didn't even give Chaos players what we really wanted. When a Chaos Marine player opens up the Chaos book, they aren't greeted with the vibrant range of Chaos that the Chaos Marines subscribe to, they're instead tricked into a copy-paste of the previous book with a few extra dinosaurs thrown in, fewer Daemon Weapons, and Daemon Princes that are supposed to have eternal life, but without Eternal Warrior. Some things got better. As a Slaanesh player I'm ecstatic that Noise Marines became so much better, with the potential for FNP, and Blastmasters with AP3, but I can only take those weapons after paying a hefty premium, and only in any significance if I take a Slaanesh Lord, which forces me to spend points in a direction I may not want to go with my army. At least in the previous Codex, I could take Noise Marines right off the bat and have my Slaanesh Sorcerers leading them.

I'm sorry if I can't accept your nonchalant "you got a lot" argument out of this. At least the Dark Angels players can be content that they didn't get rolled into the Space Marine codex, but Chaos players are left frustrated, and can you really blame us? We had such hopes. Everywhere when the rumors were coming out people were praying, BEGGING for legion rules, and those rumors that suggested such were instantly more popular than those that weren't. People were hoping for new Special Characters that would represent the Night Lords and Iron Warriors at the very least, and news of Word Bearer rules gave those players nosebleeds like you wouldn't believe.

Instead we got a Dark Apostle and Warpsmith that are worthless, nothing for Night Lords, and no special rules in tandem with Daemons, and the fluff entries on each of these were totally shameful. Keep in mind, this was well before anybody gave any credence to the rumors of Supplements, but immediately people could see, they could FEEL that the Chaos Codex was incomplete. It didn't represent what people thought of Chaos Marines at all. For the few people that were content playing a random warband or the Red Corsairs, or the Black Legion, the Codex probably didn't affect them at all, but for those that are loyal to the Emperor's Children or Night Lords, this Codex did nothing for them.

In many ways, we're at about the same place we were at the twilight of the last Chaos Codex. Daemon Princes, Plague Marines, Obliterators.. only now we have a dragon and some Cultists thrown in too, and out of necessity a Havoc squad or ADL. How bad is that, to have a whole new codex after so many years, and the armies have barely changed?

Dark Angels changed dramatically, Chaos Daemons had quite the upset, Tau will never look the same, and Eldar are still exploring the range of their new Codex. Space Marines will probably also experience quite the upheaval if the current rumors hold steady.

Are you understanding the pain here? At the very least I'm sure you can understand my passion about this. I've invested THOUSANDS of dollars into this hobby, buying models, paint, codexes and other supplies, and hundreds of hours building, painting, playing.. so to have my investment get so very little return is incredibly frustrating. If this was some video game I paid 50 bucks for and played for a few hours until I realized that the character I was playing wasn't as good as the other classes, I'd probably be a little frustrated and then switch characters. In this hobby, that's not as easy, it would require more hours, more hundreds of dollars to buy a whole new army, and I'd be incredibly lucky to get anything at all for my current Chaos Marines. Is it wrong to want something better for something that I've put so much time, money, and energy into? Other players seem to be rewarded, but after a short period of time it just feels like we're getting dumped on!

[Eberk]

None of the supplements have been nearly that impressive.
which is a very, very good

[deinol]

Did nobody else read the rumor that Chaos will be getting 4 more supplements, one for each god? Books usable for both CSM and Daemons?

They launched the supplements with the easy ones that wouldn't require a lot of changes and play testing. Good stuff is coming.

[DrBored]

Did nobody else read the rumor that Chaos will be getting 4 more supplements, one for each god? Books usable for both CSM and Daemons?

They launched the supplements with the easy ones that wouldn't require a lot of changes and play testing. Good stuff is coming.

I did see this rumor, and this rumor fills me with such joy. I do hope that good stuff is coming, and I try to remain optimistic, but Black Legion being what it is just set me into this fantastic frenzy.

Frankly, the 4 God Books rumor seems a bit like wishlisting, but I can dream, right?

[DarkLink]

I bet it's true, considering how they're spamming Supplements right now. Unfortunately, I'll give you all of the actual rules they contain right here:

Khorne:
May only take units with the mark of Khorne. Berzerkers are troops.

Unique Warlord Traits. Unique Daemon weapon.

Nurgle
May only take units with the mark of Nurgle. Plague Marines are troops.

Unique Warlord Traits. Unique Daemon weapon.

Slaanesh
May only take units with the mark of Slaanesh. Noise Marines are troops.

Unique Warlord Traits. Unique Daemon weapon.

Tzeentch
May only take units with the mark of Tzeentch. Thousand Sons are troops.

Unique Warlord Traits. Unique Daemon weapon.


If GW's feeling generous, they might throw in some new psychic powers.

[DrBored]

@DarkLink: I'm sure you're right about all of that, but the rumors suggest at least that Chaos Daemons will be invited into those 4 books, so having access to Plague Marines and Plaguebearers in the same vein would be pretty sweet, or Daemonettes, Steeds, Fiends, Chariots, Keepers of Secret, right alongside Lucius the Eternal and Blastmaster Noise Marines would be awesome.

If the Book of Slaanesh really does combine Chaos Daemons and Chaos Marines into one supplement, it'll be quite the beast. Out of the Greater Daemons, the Keeper of Secret is the best, and the Icon of Slaanesh for Chaos Marines is the only useful one out of the book in my opinion. FNP on Noise Marines supporting a Keeper and Lash Daemon Princes could quickly become a potent force.

[DarkLink]

Good point, actually.

I mean, I certainly hope that they do expand more. My first army was Khorne Berzerkers, and while I don't think I'd go back, I remember the days of the 3.5 codex, even if it was overly complex in execution. Their simplification of the codex has been pretty disappointing.

[daboarder]

Good point, actually.

I mean, I certainly hope that they do expand more. My first army was Khorne Berzerkers, and while I don't think I'd go back, I remember the days of the 3.5 codex, even if it was overly complex in execution. Their simplification of the codex has been pretty disappointing.

but unless they add cult support options, or some army abilities (like summoning or posession or something) you can really already DO all that, you just need to field allies.

[DrBored]

but unless they add cult support options, or some army abilities (like summoning or posession or something) you can really already DO all that, you just need to field allies.

There are a few little things that could go a long way with this actually. Let's take the rumored Book of Slaanesh that combines Slaanesh Daemons with Chaos Marines with Mark of Slaanesh...

Let's say the first thing they do is make Noise Marines troops without having to take a Lord with Mark of Slaanesh. Immediately this frees up an HQ slot to a Daemon Prince or, better yet in my opinion, a Sorcerer with a few Slaanesh powers. One of the reasons you don't see Slaanesh Sorcs is because after you take the Lord, there's really not enough room! Slaanesh Sorcerers have a few nice powers, and one in particular that boosts the power of Sonic weaponry exponentially. Being able to take two of these with a few squads of Blastmaster or Sonic Blaster Noise Marines will give you quite the potent gunline for not a lot of points.

Let's then say that you can take a Keeper of Secrets as an HQ without having to take the obligatory Daemonette troops for taking an ally. I really shouldn't have to explain any more of this benefit.

Finally, if everything already starts with the Mark of Slaanesh, it's not much of a stretch to give things the Icon of Excess for FNP.

Those are the obvious things that they would do, and already the options they open up would be quite impressive for each god, and mono-god lists could really become feasible with just those few small changes. Even if the ONLY thing it does is allow you to take Noise Marines as troops without having to take a Lord with Mark of Slaanesh, I'd be a happy camper. Everything else is a bonus at that point.

I'm sure we could expect a few new pieces of wargear, maybe some altered psychic powers, maybe some new Warlord traits that are nice and fluffy.

Then, if they're really nice... they'll start doing things like letting you add Heralds to Chaos Marine units and Chaos Marine HQ's to Daemon units. Having a Chaos Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh with a few Heralds on Steeds in a group of Steeds would be a fast and very cruel force that wouldn't even be that expensive. Then if you can give Blastmasters to Havocs, I'd take that every time. If they allow you to put Blastmasters on Predators or other things, even better! Special rules for Slaanesh Terminators would be sweet too, but I'm already starting to stretch...