Behind Enemy Lines + Saga of the Hunter

[Tyrsday]

So my diabolical plan is to attach a Wolf Priest with Saga of the Hunter to a unit of Wolf Scouts and more than likely have them come in behind the gunlines I've been playing a lot recently. My question is whether since the Saga of the Hunter allows a char. to outflank if they're attached to a unit of Wolf Scouts do they gain the ability to outflank like them or cause the squad to have to outflank normally?

[mkerr]

It's worse than that. The prevailing argument is that it can't happen. But this is one of those rules questions that leads to massive thread arguments because there are good arguments on both sides.

The question comes down to, does Saga of the Hunter mix with the Infiltrate/Scouts USR? Right now, by RAW, they don't. Separately both units can outflank, but as soon as you add the Wolf Priest to the Wolf Scouts they lose the ability to outflank (because they lose the Infiltrate/Scouts URS when the Independent Character joins the unit). It sounds strange, but people feel very strongly about this one.

Here's a rundown of the arguments and you can make up your own mind:

Argument #1: No.
The Wolf Priest has the ability to outflank but does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts USRs. That means that as soon as the Wolf Priest joins the Wolf Scouts, the Wolf Scouts lose both the Infiltrate and Scouts USRs (BBB, p74).This means that although the Wolf Priest can outflank, the Wolf Scouts lose the ability to choose to outflank (i.e., they don't have the Infiltrate/Scouts USR anymore).

Argument #2: Yes.
There is no "outflank" USR in the game, so the USR restrictions don't apply. Outflanking is a method of deployment, not a special rule. If any model in a unit can outflank, then the whole unit can outflank.

Personally, I think it's silly for the Wolf Scouts to lose the ability to outflank when joined by an Independent Character that can outflank. But it's a sticky situation and you should talk to the people in your local area until it's FAQed. I understand why GW didn't give Scouts to models with Saga of the Hunter, but it would've simplified things greatly.

But if the Wolf Scouts are able to outflank with the attached Wolf Priest, then they would be able to operate behind enemy lines.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Argument #1: No.
Stupid illogical bull****

Argument #2: Yes.
More stupid illogical bull****, but makes a lot more sense gameplay-wise.
There, I fixed that. :D

I suspect that the giving of the Scouts rule to the ICs with the saga will be part of the FAQ.

[DarkLink]

I would have to say that argument 1 is technically correct. There is no outflank USR, thus, the only time a unit may outflank is if it has a different rule that allows it to outflank. Since Scouts loose the rule that grants them outflank, and the Saga does not extend to the unit*, there is no way for the Scouts to outflank.

That said, I think it just makes sense to let them outflank together.


*I'm assuming that it doesn't anyways, I don't feel like looking it up. I've spent like, 9 hours straight either in class or doing homework, and have a brutal midterm** in an hour and a half. So sue me:p.

**The average score for the final in this class is often around 30-40%, before the curve, IIRC. The average of the last midterm was barely over 50%.

[MarshalAdamar]

“Behind enemy lines” that’s something that is not covered by “out flank” so the priest cannot come in with the scouts if they choose to come in on the opponent’s long table edge.

The RAW says that ANY IC that is with in 2" of a unit at the END of the movement phase "joins" that unit.

So don't put them together and pray they both come on at the same time and from the same board edge. Then move them on so that they with in 2” of the scouts at the end of the movement phase.

Also a unit doesn't "lose" an ability because a character joins them; they just can't use that ability so long as the IC is with them unless the IC has that ability as well and vice versa.

So the rub seems to be that the priest doesn’t have the “scouts” ability but has part of it. So the question becomes can you can use part of an ability when joined with a unit that some of the abilities but not all of them.

So scouts don't LOSE the ability “out flank” because the one of the abilities that is part of the "Scout" ability.

BOTH the priest AND the scouts have the "outflank" ability

The IC I think has move through cover so the scouts can use their move through cover as well. The priest does NOT have "infiltrate" (unless it’s under the Stealth USR) I’m not sure. But let’s say he doesn’t so then the scouts couldn’t use their infiltrate.

But the argument that scouts can’t outflank because they lose the scouts special rule is only partly right. They lose the use of all abilities that the joining IC doesn’t have.

But in this case both scouts and priest have the same ability so I don’t see why they can’t all outflank together.

[MarshalAdamar]

But if the Wolf Scouts are able to outflank with the attached Wolf Priest, then they would be able to operate behind enemy lines.

I was going to challenge you on that but after looking at the wolf scouts entry under behind enemy lines it says. “If a wolf scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank"

So you are right, IF you say that the scouts do not "Lose" the scout USR all together and that they can use out flank if the priest has outflank then the "UNIT" can use behind enemy lines.

By George your right.

[DarkLink]

Also a unit doesn't "loose" an ability because a character joins them; they just can't use that ability so long as the IC is with them unless the IC has that ability as well and vice versa.

Nomenclature isn't too important here, the effect is the same. Not being able to use scout/infiltrate is effectively the same as loosing it for that game.



But the argument that scouts can’t outflank because they loose the scouts special rule is only partly right. The loose the use of all abilities that the joining IC doesn’t have.


Unfortunately, no. If the Priest doesn't have the Scout or Infiltrate rule, the Wolf Scouts can't use their Scout or Infiltrate rule at all, by RAW. It doesn't matter if the Priest has "part of the rule". Priests do not have Scout/Infiltrate, thus the Wolf Scouts can't use their Scout/Infiltrate. At all.

However, I suspect that GW will fix this. Hopefully.

[Lerra]

Here's my story and I'm sticking to it ;) (At least until the FAQ is released)

pg 75 of the rulebook: "Infiltrate also confers a special outflank move to units of infiltrators that are kept in reserve."

The unit cannot use infiltrate because the IC does not have the Infiltrate USR. But it keeps the "special outflank move" (which is separate from Infiltrate) and can outflank because the IC also has the "special outflank move".

I think RAI is pretty clear on this, so I'm willing to bend RAW slightly to allow the rules to function as they are supposed to. Otherwise, Saga of the Hunter would have absolutely 0 function in-game, and I doubt GW would release a new codex with non-functioning wargear.

[DarkLink]

It depends on the details of the way the IC and Units with USR's is worded. I don't have the BRB on me, so I can't check, but if the wording is right, then Lerra's argument might be right.

That said, I don't think it does, technically, off the top of my head.

[DarkLink]

Just checked the rulebook.

BRB pg 74 "These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same special rule."

Priest doesn't have the Scouts/Infiltrate, thus Wolf Scouts loose their Scout/Infiltrate rule, thus they technically can't outflank.

[MarshalAdamar]

Just checked the rulebook.

BRB pg 74 "These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same special rule."

Priest doesn't have the Scouts/Infiltrate, thus Wolf Scouts lose their Scout/Infiltrate rule, thus they technically can't outflank.

I didn’t have the BRB in front of me the last time, but you’re right. It uses the word “Loses” so you can’t outflank with a pries, though I think the RAI seems to indicate that he should.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, this is one of those times where I don't like the conclusion that I come to. But wishing doesn't change RAW. That's what houserules are for;).

[Lerra]

Not to be a grammar nerd, but . . .

Lose = "They lose the special rule."
Loose = "His pants are so loose that they are going to fall down."

[Sam]

Not to be a grammar nerd, but . . .

Lose = "They lose the special rule."
Loose = "His pants are so loose that they are going to fall down."

Thanks, that was really starting to irritate me.

[RedScorpionsGirl]

So my diabolical plan is to attach a Wolf Priest with Saga of the Hunter to a unit of Wolf Scouts and more than likely have them come in behind the gunlines I've been playing a lot recently. My question is whether since the Saga of the Hunter allows a char. to outflank if they're attached to a unit of Wolf Scouts do they gain the ability to outflank like them or cause the squad to have to outflank normally?

A couple examples that falls into similar rulings:

Grey Knights
If you attach a Grey Knight Grandmaster to a unit of Grey Knights, he does NOT lose his Shrouding rule, as all Grey Knights have this.

If you attach a Grey Knight Grandmaster to a unit of, say, Deathwing Terminators, he loses this rule, as the unit does NOT have it.

Witch Hunters

A cannoness can be given a jump pack. But if she joins a unit of seraphim, they lose their ability to hit and run, as she doesn't have that special rule.

If you use St. Celestine, she has hit and run, so if she is attached to unit of Seraphim, they are able to use hit and run.

If a character does not have the USR, which in the scouts case, is specifically Behind Enemy Lines, and yes, while they have scout as well, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you attach a character, they can't use behind enemy lines, as the Wolf Priest doesn't have it. They are scouts, with scout ability, and the character having scout would make the unit able to scout normally, or outflank normally.

If it said he gained Behind Enemy Lines, he would be able to function with them normally.

[Mobious]

While I agree that the Scouts should be allowed to outflank with a Priest, the rules state otherwise. Saying that some of its abilities remain intact even though the rules are lost to the unit is just wrong. As it says clearly here:

BRB pg 74 "These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same special rule."

You LOSE the rule entirely, meaning you are no longer an Infiltrator or Scouter.

pg 75 of the rulebook: "Infiltrate also confers a special outflank move to units of infiltrators that are kept in reserve."

Since the Wolf Scouts are no longer a unit of infiltrators/scouts, they cannot outflank from reserves as it states above. Like I said I would allow it, but we don't act like the rules are on your side.

[rle68]

this issue has been settled with the new faq thats out the ic can use behind enenmy lines but cannot use any special skills not granted to the unit he joins