Racism and you.

[Deadlift]

I'm not sure if any of you have been bothered by this but it's something that crops up from time to time for me and I wanted to share my personal experiences and see if anyone else has been on the wrong end of any kind of racist remarks and even hatred.
I have mentioned in the past that I consider my heritage to be mixed, sure I don't have any obvious ancestry difference just by looking at me, but having a Turkish father who is a practicing Muslim has absolutely had an impact on my life and ment I have been singled to be "different"
My 1st memorable experience of this is at school, I borrowed a book from the library which was causing a bit of a stir in the media. Satanic verses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses
I was intrigued by all the fuss and rented the book. I had it for about 2 hours. The librarian who know me reasonable well at school and knew my fathers background took it upon herself to phone the headmaster of my school and "warn" him of the book I had rented and he made the decision to come into class and instructed I return the book in front of the whole class just in case my father was offended.
Never before had I felt different to my friends in anyway, I'm "white" sure I'm olive skinned and go proper dark in the sun, but nothing really physically different, yet here in front of my class at 13 years of age I was made to feel that I was somehow different because of my fathers background. The thing is never before had my peers even considered my father being a Muslim anything of interest. But thanks to my headmaster it soon led to taunting and bullying.
Now growing up in Devon I'm sure made a bit of difference. I will be honest and say you can go a whole day in my town and see nobody but people who are white.
Fast forward to today and I will admit this time of year becomes somewhat difficult sometimes for me. The sun comes out and whilst too much sun for some results in sunburn, I just go dark. Very dark. I have been called Big Paki etc in the past even by my friends or so called friends who are obviously ignorant. It's generally meant in good fun but I think unless you've been on the receiving end you can't really understand how it feels to be made fun off just because of your background and perceived differences. Sure I'm not black but I'm still made to feel I'm different.
Anyway whilst being quite laid back about most things, tonight I let loose in the pub after work and I think my mate was on the verge of crapping his pants.
Basically he made the remark "I think Britain would be better off had Germany won the war" I think we all know his implication. Unfortunately I blew. His excuse was " mate" you know I don't mean you. I explained ( shouted )**** Germany's views on Muslims in general and how had they won the WW2 I wouldn't have even been born.
Did I over react ? More than likely.
Anyway I'm not really sure anymore what my point about this post is about. I know a few of you in relation to other threads have been the victim of others ignorance. I just wanted to share and show you guys that there's another form of discrimination not touched on in the LGBT or Feminist threads. I'm also venting as this latest incident only happened hours ago and I'm actually a little pissed up right now :o. Maybe I'm luckier than some because im not too different to look at etc and I am over reacting ?

The sad thing is even now I'm kind of embarrassed to bring a topic like this up and write about it. We all have our own lives, trials and tribulations. Mine pale in comparison to what I read here.

[YorkNecromancer]

"Of course I don't mean you?"

Revolting. Did you overreact? I suppose the question would be if someone said that about your kids how would you feel? If it's "even angrier", then no, you didn't overreact. That is a horrible thing for them to say, and just because it's not something obvious like the n-word, well, that's kind of worse. More insidious. It's racism that masquerades as "just my opinion".

It's like that old chestnut "I'm not racist, but..."

If you have to put the qualifier in there, you're a racist. Sticking feathers up you butt doesn't make you a chicken, and saying you're not racist doesn't mean you're not. You were well within your rights to blow up. If it'd be me (and occasionally it has been) I'd have done the same.

And there's no gradient of wrongness, no pyramid of "who suffers most", because that's just moral relativism talking. That's just rationalising, and trying to make a bad thing okay. Their behaviour was unacceptable. The Islamophobia in the UK at the moment is something I am ashamed of; my very best friend in all the world is a Muslim. He's the greatest guy I've ever known. My brother's best man was Muslim; he was also a professional nightclub dancer and now he teaches maths. It's all a bunch of cobblers. It's also a consequence of recession - people get angry and start to look for someone to blame, and the simple answer that "feels right" will always trump a complicated truth that doesn't.

You're a cool guy, Deadlift. Don't let this grind you down.

[magickbk]

Ultimately speaking, all forms of discrimination are about how they make you feel inside. When you see a story in the news about some hate crime, it reminds you that there are terrible people in the world, but it can seem removed from your own situation because you don't live in that place, or have never encountered those types. When someone close to you makes those little comments that let you know that they see you in that way, it hits much closer to the heart.

I'm about as white as you can get in appearance, but ethnically I've got some flavor mixed in. I have family members that have a discriminatory point of view towards those groups, but many of them forget about it, and they've made comments while around me, and I'm not sure if they realize it or not.

My main point is that whatever any of us has in our blood, there is someone somewhere who would hate us for it, and we just have to keep educating people. I think there is improvement with every generation, and someday I believe that our grandchildren, or great-grandchildren, or someone, won't have to live in that kind of world.

[daboarder]

You know what I hate.

Being told that I dont know what racism is because I'm white.
Or that I'm inherently racist because I'm white.
Or that in a democratic nation the majority of the population must accept the culture of the minority because otherwise I'm racist.
Or that if I'm not ashamed of my ancestors I'm racist.

Why? Because hypocrisy is a b*tch

[eldargal]

You know what I hate.

Being told that I dont know what racism is because I'm white.
Or that I'm inherently racist because I'm white.
Or that in a democratic nation the majority of the population must accept the culture of the minority because otherwise I'm racist.
Or that if I'm not ashamed of my ancestors I'm racist.

Why? Because hypocrisy is a b*tch
Well, you can know what racism is when you are white, obviously. But it is highly unlikely you have ever experienced it living in a majority white society in the same way someone a Person of Colour will have. there is a difference between knowing something on an intellectual level and experiencing it every day of your life.
Anyone saying someone is inherently racist because of their skin colour is an idiot.
Very complex issues, people do have a right to maintain their cultural heritage but at the same time where that culture may clash with the mainstream it isn't unreasonable to expect to minority culture to defer to the mainstream (for example, African genital mutilation in the UK)
One of the bedrocks of Common Law is that people cannot be held responsible for the sins of their forebears, as far as I'm concerned that goes for feeling shame too. One can acknowledge their crimes (if any) but feeling ashamed is silly. Of course it becomes quite complex too, for example German responsibility for Na zi crimes or Japanese responsibility for WWII crimes.

[daboarder]

Yeah we've been here before. And quite frankly the racism in that first statement of yours is exacly the bull**** im talking about. Thanks for proving the point.

[eldargal]

You really don't know what racism is do you.:rolleyes:

[daboarder]

You know what im I a ****ty mood today so **** it.

You dont know me
You dont know my life
You dint know what my parents and grandparents have been through

And yet you make assumptions, about me and my experiences based solely upon my skin colour. You dismiss my opinion as either uninformed or uninportant based solely on my skin colour.


How is that not ****ing racist?

Or do I not ****ing qualify until I have been refused work and accommodation because of my race? Because been there and done that! Or does it not count unless it happeens multiple time? Quantify it for me then is it once? Twice? Would I still not count regardless of how many times such thing had happened to me because im white?

Edit: deadlift come to aus. W e dont give a **** about what you look like ot where your from we'll tkae the piss out of you regardless and expect the same in return

[Mr Mystery]

I've experienced it.

Moved from Edinburgh to South East England, and boy did I get it. Apparently, when you're a small town arsebrain, even being from a mere 450 miles up the road, you're to be shunned and/or picked on...

It's not pleasant, and its not fun.

[daboarder]

Exaclty mystery I think we can at least all agree it sucks when it happens.

[eldargal]

I've experienced it.

Moved from Edinburgh to South East England, and boy did I get it. Apparently, when you're a small town arsebrain, even being from a mere 450 miles up the road, you're to be shunned and/or picked on...

It's not pleasant, and its not fun.
Now imagine that every day of your life and not being able to get away with it by moving to a different area.



Edit: deadlift come to aus. W e dont give a **** about what you look like ot where your from we'll tkae the piss out of you regardless and expect the same in return

Unless you go by boat.

[daboarder]

Do you know how many aussies actually give a **** about that?


Not a lot. Read a great article the other day. Our polies bring up immigration by boat because everything else is so de regulated and privitised that they are irrelevant in every other area of government. See the reserve bank for an idea.

Tell me eldargal do you think we really are all just racist ****? Or do you think that its a small portion of the population? If it IS a small portion of the population the why do you feel justified in decrying the rest of us for their action?

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-09/vote-compass-data-results-important-issues/4872896

So what, maybe 12 people in a hundred give a **** about asylum seekers? With about 30 percent more worried about the economy. Ssoooooo racist!

[eldargal]

Enough care to justify the policy and there is evidently enough apathy to allow it to happen. Not saying it is any better here, but acting like Australia is any more free of racism is simplistic.

I certainly don't think all Australians are racist, nor do I think all British people are racist. But there is enough institutional racism in both countries which I think is the distinction you are missing here. You may have missed out on a job because of your skin colour, you may have experienced racism, I don't doubt this. What you haven't faced, if you are white in the UK or Australia (or the US), is an entire society geared towards servicing white people and marginalising people of colour. That's institutional racism and if you are white the chances of you experiencing it are very small. If you have, then I'm sorry for you and I'd hope you would sympathise with all the people of colour who also experience it.

[daboarder]

You have proved you have NO IDEA about Australia.

About the only area that could be called institutionalised racism is govermental dealings with aboriginal communities. And eveb then its more that the bureaucracy is to paralised by fear of being CALLED racist to do anything about it.

Come over here and live a while in this country before you decry it as geared to give white people and edge.

If there is an inherent racism in Australia why is tbe largest broad ethnic group at university in sydney asian?

[eldargal]

Actually I have a great deal of knowledge about Australia, I have several Australian friends and I read many articles. Several of said friends are active in various institutions aimed at combating racism and discrimination in Australian society.

[daboarder]

Good then go read the papers by prof kevin dunn at uws.

[daboarder]

See this is the part I disagree witb eldargal.

Botb mystery and I bave informed you that we have been subject to racism

But you keep stating that somehow, unless it happens day in day out that our opinions dont count thats just patently rediculous.

Sigh you know what, were not going to agree o this one. So we may as well just leave it for now I guess

[eldargal]

See this is the part I disagree witb eldargal.

Botb mystery and I bave informed you that we have been subject to racism

But you keep stating that somehow, unless it happens day in day out that our opinions dont count thats just patently rediculous.

Sigh you know what, were not going to agree o this one. So we may as well just leave it for now I guess
I don't doubt you have been the subject of racism actually, nor do I mean to imply it wasn't upsetting. I too have been the subject of racism and I'm white as a ghost. I'm not saying your opinions do not count either, what I'm saying is that there are lots of people in Britain, Australia, Europe and The US (and more besides) where people of colour have to deal with that sort of thing EVERY day of their lives and sometimes worse. What I'm asking is that you do not dismiss their experience, or downplay it, just because you may have experienced racism too.


Anyway, getting back to Deadlift:

What you are experiencing is to some extent 'micro aggression' lots of little things which most people don't even realise can make others uncomfortable. Even if you were perfectly comfortable being called a Paki it can still make others who overhear it feel isolated and detached from mainstream society. I have a friend who is quite happy for us to call her Paki (I don't anyway) so long as we only do it in places no one can overhear, like our homes.

No, you didn't over reaction, in fact you did the right thing. A lot of people don't think of 'others' (in this instance Muslims) as being people they know. They (or he, whatver) make an exception for you because you are someone they know and like so you are 'us' but Muslims are still 'other'. It is racist and by standing up to him and pointing out that one of his friends wouldn't even be alive if Germany had won the war you are helping combat the casual ignorance that leads to such comments. It also stems from White Privilege, he has never been in a situation where his very existence has been threatened by his skin colour, so he doesn't understand that others have. Racism and white supremacy to him is something abstract that only hurts anonymous 'others'.
So you did the right thing and I salute you for it Mr Deadlifht.:) The only way society can combat that kind of casual racism is when people make it clear to their friends it isn't acceptable to them, so it isn't just the mythical 'PC brigade' that find it unacceptable but their own friendship circle.

The same principle applies to sexism too, one man calling out a friend publically for making sexist jokes or being misogynist in general (sadly) does more good than reasoned debate from a woman because the man just won't listen. Have the Feminism topic to go into more detail on that but I wanted to point out the link between the two.

[daboarder]

I don't doubt you have been the subject of racism actually, nor do I mean to imply it wasn't upsetting. I too have been the subject of racism and I'm white as a ghost. I'm not saying your opinions do not count either, what I'm saying is that there are lots of people in Britain, Australia, Europe and The US (and more besides) where people of colour have to deal with that sort of thing EVERY day of their lives and sometimes worse. What I'm asking is that you do not dismiss their experience, or downplay it, just because you may have experienced racism too.

Oh I can promise that no worries. I fully accept that society is full of *******s. I just disagree that said *******s reperesent the society and the morals it aims to ascribe to.

[eldargal]

Gla we cleared that up then.:) I'm certainly not saying the racists represent our societies, just that they represent a problem within our societies.

[Wolfshade]

I know this is kinda nit-picking but racism is discrimination based on race. Islam is not a race, it is a religion and so any such intolerance against those is religious discrimination, after all a white Muslim wouldn't be discriminated because of their skin colour in certain parts of the world, where a non-white Christian might.

I also think that the whole terminology is inherently flawed, indeed the term racist insists that people belong to different races, whereas we are all the same race it is just cultural and location that makes us different. After all the extremist will say that you can't be racist since those not of their group isn't a human and you don't give non-humans these rights.

But anyway I digress, I would want to share two anecdotes.

The first. In my secondary school there was a high racial mix, that is to say the concept of a white majority was not accurate. Indeed in my form group if you were white you were in the minority and casual racism would be bounded around mainly by those from the sub-continent (we had Indians, Pakistani and Bangladeshi) when referring to "us" (the white boys) would call us "gorra" which when used literally is just an adjective for the term white, however, it is again one of these pejorative terms that's every day usage is a racial slur, yet the school turned a blind eye.

The second. My in-laws live in South Africa. The country is, outwardly at least, much more open minded when it comes to skin tone and ancestory. They have adopted two zulu children (despite them being white) one of their friends asked them if they were to tell them that they were adopted (my in-laws are both very white and the children are very dark skinned), but this seems to illustrate the colour-blindness of some. My mother-in-law's grand parent's on the one side now refuse to talk to my in-laws as they have black children because they like a lot of the population are inherently racist.

[eldargal]

Well race itself is an artificial construct, there is ethnicity and culture, no race. It's become a catch-all phrase for discrimination against non-whites which is a but silly I agree. Also worth noting that Deadlift referred to being called a 'Paki' which is a racial title.

[Wolfshade]

It wasn't until the 60s when Paki garnered it's pejorative usage, previously it was correct term to refer to someone of Pakistan origin, indeed the entomology supports this as the -stan is "land of" from the Persian so Pakistan is land of the Paki, in a similar vein that Turkmenistan is land of the Turkmeni. Unfortunately such usage has been corrupted and befouled.

There is a movement within some Pakistan communities to re-claim the P word in the same way that blacks have re-claimed the N word. Whereby it is fine for memebers of the commiunity to use it, but if an outsider were to use it, woe betied you

[Deadlift]

Yep despite having not a drop of Pakistani blood in me, have pointed this out on several occasions I have been told "yeah but your strangely brown" like that's a justification for the tag.
Sure I take it on the chin and I know it's generally ment in good humour but it does get a bit old sometimes, and I'm white. Gives me an appreciation of how it can be for folks of a more obvious different ethnic background.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Discrimination is pretty nasty, I get it every day with dirty looks, or every person who insists on calling me sir despite all the evidence to the contrary. It doesn't help that with my voice people can tell I am trans really easily. I am lucky that I don't get the discrimination based on my sexuality because most people assume trans girls are into guys, despite how sexuality and gender are only marginally tied based on a title. So only my friends really know I am a lesbian, so thankfully I do not have to deal with that can of worms terribly often.

The trans thing though, oh my god is it annoying, but eldargal is right about the micro-aggression thing, its a sad fact of life that society is still working on. By confronting your friend and making him uncomfortable, it made him deal with a truth he was probably not consciously aware of. Most people who do these micro-aggression's don't even realize it, they are usually good people, but we aren't perfect. Only when confronted and made to see our own actions through another's eyes can you really fix it. So you pretty much did exactly the right thing in my humble opinion.

[magickbk]

Sensitivity, thy name is internet banner ads. I was just reading Emerald Rose Widow's comment above, and my eyes drifted over to the ad on the right, which asks: "Do you support traditional marriage?" *facepalm

[Wildeybeast]

Mine is for a phone and an Mmo. What have you been googling?

[SotonShades]

I am really happy to say I am mixed race. There is English, more English, a bit more from England, then some Welsh... Yeh, I'm about as white-british as it is possible to be in this modern world. I think you have to go back about ten generations to find anything ethnically divergent, and that is Romanii Gypsy, so still pretty white.

That said, I do live in one of the most ethnically diverse cities in Europe, and the only one in the UK (if I recall correctly) where white-british is technically a minority. Not that we feel threatened or persecuted, or that I live within the actual city limits where that distinction applies.

I have however witnessed a few racist incidents and some wonderful, uplifting reactions to go with them. Not too long ago, around Leicester Clock tower there was a west-indies choir group singing about Jesus. Not my thing, but pleasant enough. This piece of turd chav stands right in front of them and shouts that they should go back to working fields (so relatively well educated by chav standards). The choir leader, never breaking the beat, simply turns round and nods over the chav's shoulder, he turns round and sees a huge crowd standing stock still and staring at him with something that goes deeper than rage in their eyes. This crowd could have come from a design group photoshoot; just about every race you would expect to find in Leicester was standing there, united against this little grub of a human (including a tourist Japanese couple who I had just taken a photo for). His eyes went wide as dinner plates, lost all the colour from his face in sheer terror and legged it.

Now, I can't say what would have happened if he hadn't. I am proud to be from a place where such affronts are not tolerated. Sure, you can never police what is going through people's minds, and yes Leicester is often a target of EDL marches, but for so many people to openly embrace the other cultures in our little mixing pot and be willing to defend the other cultures as whole heartedly as they do their own is something wonderful.

Not to mention, the Diwalli celebrations are pretty awesome!

[magickbk]

Mine is for a phone and an Mmo. What have you been googling?

I work in IT, so I clear out my phone cache and cookies and such constantly. It's possible that it is regionally targeted by my IP address or something, or that yours is targeted by something you did. On my work PC the ads are for a car I looked at a few days ago, and a feminine hygiene product that I'm pretty sure I've never searched anything even remotely like.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Actually I have a great deal of knowledge about Australia, I have several Australian friends and I read many articles. Several of said friends are active in various institutions aimed at combating racism and discrimination in Australian society.

Let me see if I follow this... Drew Da Boarder can't truly understand racism because he's white, but you can understand Australia because you've read articles and have Australian friends? Admittedly Drew did say you have 'NO idea' and I guess you have proven yourself to have SOME idea, but this did strike me as inconsistent logic.

Thanks to Wolfshade for pointing out that Islam is NOT a race. I can't believe how often those two designations get conflated. There was a lawsuit in Detroit about a year again that cited "racial discrimination against Muslims." I have not read the entire Qur'an but the parts I did read did not seem to say anything about race or ethnicity in them.

Let me get to the main reason for my post, however. Living in one of the most historically notorious racist places on earth, I thought I might contribute a few thoughts to this discussion.

I grew up in the far northern part of the USA and have four ancestors who all fought on the right side of the American Civil War. I used to have a somewhat low opinion of white Southerners which was due in at least in part to their reputation for racism. I was above racism of course, having had a one or two African-American friends on occasion and two black professors on my Ph.D. committee. I also drove thorough black ghettos in the big northern cities occasionally on my way to somewhere else.

When I took a job in the Deep South a decade ago, my good, white, liberal friends up north warned me that I would hate the confederacy because of its inherent racism, religious intolerance, and basic stupidity. I knew they spoke the truth because I had seen movies made by Californians about white Southerners.

Well, a decade later having lived in the South I have found things are not so simple (this is partly why I questioned Eldar Gal's "great deal of knowledge" about Australia). In fact, to make a bad pun, the issue is actually not at all black and white down here. Yes, there is still a strong racist streak to Southern US culture. Southerners do their best to hide this from "carpet-bagging Yankees" like me, but occasionally it slips out. Especially if I have not been talking much and my accent has not given me away.

This is the part Hollywood and the popular media won't tell you: in some ways the US South is LESS racist than the US North (and perhaps other places like Europe, China, -who knows? I don't live there). Let me explain why. In the North, black people tend to be jammed into messy ghettos and slums in the inner-cities. People or European and Asian descent tend to live in pleasant suburbs and often have very little interaction with African-Americans.

The US South, however, is remarkably integrated. Blacks and whites very often live shoulder-to-shoulder with each other AND with a large number of Latinos/Hispanics/Mexicans (pick your label) mixed right in. There are black and white neighborhoods in the South, but they tend to be much, much smaller and far-less exclusively one race or the other. It is nothing like the segregation of the North. I never used to have more than one black friend at a time up north, nor have black people come into my house and eat meals with me back there. The occasions just never seemed to come up. Here they happen all the time.

Yes, there is a legacy of racial hostility from the past that is not entirely gone, but there also seems to be a level of comfortable co-existence that is not close to matched by anything I've seen in the four northern US states I've lived in.

As I type this I'm giving a test at a Southern University in a city with a notorious history of racism that once made international headlines. Ever hear of the Little Rock Central High Crisis? President David Eisenhower had to send the 101st Airborne Division into this city back in 1957 because of white resistance to integration.

I'm looking at my students. I see African-Americans (the majority), whites (a close second), Latinos, an East-Asian, and a South-Asian (an Indian, not a Native American -although I'm sure almost every white student here would claim to be 1/16th Cherokee if I asked them). The point is that this is a very diverse class.

The classes I used to teach up north did not look anything like this. The South has suffered from some stereotyping itself. That's my two cents on this subject.

[eldargal]

Let me see if I follow this... Drew Da Boarder can't truly understand racism because he's white, but you can understand Australia because you've read articles and have Australian friends? Admittedly Drew did say you have 'NO idea' and I guess you have proven yourself to have SOME idea, but this did strike me as inconsistent logic..
No, that isn't what I was saying at all and that misunderstanding has been addressed in an earlier post if you read through them all.

Leaving that aside, I have to say my limited travels in the South of the US certainly seemed to indicate a very well integrated society. Plenty of people of colour going about their business going about their business shopping, dining etc. without any visible tension. Contrast that to certain areas in New York where the only people of colour you saw were staff or beggars. Purely anecdotal of course. Southerners seemed much more polite and certainly not the poorly educated hicks popular culture makes them out to be. Had an excellent discussion about archaeology and art history with a truck driver in a diner in Kentucky for example.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

No, that isn't what I was saying at all and that misunderstanding has been addressed in an earlier post if you read through them all.

Leaving that aside, I have to say my limited travels in the South of the US certainly seemed to indicate a very well integrated society. Plenty of people of colour going about their business going about their business shopping, dining etc. without any visible tension. Contrast that to certain areas in New York where the only people of colour you saw were staff or beggars. Purely anecdotal of course. Southerners seemed much more polite and certainly not the poorly educated hicks popular culture makes them out to be. Had an excellent discussion about archaeology and art history with a truck driver in a diner in Kentucky for example.

My bad. I must have missed the follow-up.

Kentucky Trucker Art & Archeology? Sounds like a story...

[Deadlift]

Thanks to Wolfshade for pointing out that Islam is NOT a race. I can't believe how often those two designations get conflated. There was a lawsuit in Detroit about a year again that cited "racial discrimination against Muslims." I have not read the entire Qur'an but the parts I did read did not seem to say anything about race or ethnicity in them.

Your right, being Islamic isn't about race, but the discrimination that Muslims face isn't so different in comparison to discrimination based on skin colour alone is it ? The effect is just the same. I know you didn't mean it to but your above statement somehow made me feel my experiences are somehow cheapened because they aren't solely based on colour.

For instance here in the UK we had a terrible incidence recently where 2 Muslim men ran an off duty soldier over with a car and then horrifically murdered him in broad daylight. The country as a whole was shocked to the core.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Lee_Rigby
Within hours my Facebook news feed was full of thinly veiled anti Muslim sentiment. Statements that went from "they should all **** off back home to their own country's" to "Muslims shouldn't be allowed to use the NHS" and much worse. Now I stress I'm not Muslim but my father is and he has lived here since 1968. He started his own business and whilst he is now retired he did at one point employ 25 staff members. He is and was a contributing member of society. But here my friends and even family members from my mothers side were advocating and spouting all this anti Islam sentiment. When I challenged them on it I got the usual response that, it's ok we of course don't mean your father he's pretty much one of us now. The hypocrisy was ludicrous.
I went from 130 odd friends on Facebook to 25. I just found it easier to delete accounts instead of arguing.
This horrible incident really showed to me just how deep routed discrimination still is. Most I guess thought they were being patriotic.

Basically for me calling someone a ****** or advocating "all Muslims go home" aren't really poles apart.

[daboarder]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-15/anti-us-protests-hit-sydney/4263372

Now this isn't justification, but there is a reason that people get frustrated with the Islamic community, when large portions of its population get violent over a portrayal of a guy dead for hundreds of years the average person is liable to feel like they are under attack by a subversive group within society.

In Australia Islamic followers make up about 2% of the population, and most of them come from Indonesia or Malaysia, however when the aggressive and vocal portion of that population is demanding that the other 98% of the population follow their laws, customs and whims....well the 98% is going to be pissed off.

Of course the counter point is that the 5 Iranians, 2 Indonesians and 2 Malayan people I work with are some of the most polite people I know.

[Phototoxin]

Firstly I don't find Paki offensive since in Ireland 'Packie' (pronounced the same as Paki) is a friendly shortening of Patrick (we have Pat, Patsy, Paddy but there's so many of them that they need more nicknames for Patrick!) - heck even one of our world cup players at one point was Packie O'Bonner!

I think what your drinking buddy means is that there can be percieved to be 2 kinds of muslim in the UK: those who are British (or Islamic, Indian, Pakistani, Irish, Spanish or whatever) and who integrate, speak the lingo and so on. Then there's those who's culture and 'race' is 'Muslim' (basically non-english speaking, middle eastern Muslims) who don't integrate. It's these that the fears are based on.


Being told that I dont know what racism is because I'm white.
Or that I'm inherently racist because I'm white.
Or that in a democratic nation the majority of the population must accept the culture of the minority because otherwise I'm racist.
Or that if I'm not ashamed of my ancestors I'm racist.

Lol the Irish would disagree. Or the Welsh.

[Build]

I don't think you over-reacted at all.

We all have our break points and limits, these can often be pushed, but then some stupid oxygen thief comes along and says something that crosses the line in a very bad way. I find 99% of all Hitler memes amusing, light hearted and generally not something I take offence to. However I DO have my limits. When I was younger I was introduced to two lovely people from Poland.

They were both sent to concentration camps and endured some really terrible ordeals, so much so that they wrote a book about it, I believe it was privately published, but I've included a link below.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Two_Hells_to_Happiness.html?id=RuGdXwAACAAJ

Now some of the things listed in that book are so horrible it makes you question whether any human being could be capable of such cruelty. As I said, we all have our limits, but with that comment your mate made I would have lost my cool too, the biggest problem with ignorant or closed minds is that they don't come with closed mouths.

[Necron2.0]

I definitely feel your pain, Dead. My dad is white (German mostly), while my mom is half-Spanish and half-Native American. As long as I avoid exposure to the sun, I favor my dad in appearance. If I see any sunlight at all I'll darken up, with a slight stereotypical reddish hue.

As a child I was singled out for special abuse by a racist teacher, because she'd thought I was a good white boy until the first parent-teacher conference, when she came to the realization that the woman who brought me to school wasn't the nanny. She used to intentionally misdirect me on assignments, and then drag me in front of the class and ridicule me. When I fought back against it, she had me sent in for psychiatric evaluation. I've been spat on. I've been beaten up. When I've complained I've been ignored. When I've gotten even, I've been labeled violent. When I've outsmarted and outmaneuvered the idiots, I've been labeled a troublemaker.

Just the other day I had to bow out of a facebook forum because I happened to mention I'm Hispanic, and a bunch of retards kept telling me I should go back to Mexico. Amusing, first, because I happened to be agreeing with them on the particular topic, and second, because on my dad's side I can trace my lineage back to the American Revolution, while my mom's family (the Spanish side) can trace their presence in North American to the 1600's, and nowhere in there is Mexico involved.

This is why I get amused and slightly annoyed with people who complain of persecution when all that has happened is they overhear slightly disparaging comments directed at them or their social group. Basically, they don't know what real persecution is. It always brings to mind an old Saturday Night Live (US comedy show) mock news skit, involving Scientologists complaining of possible religious persecution by the German government for not recognizing their religion. The anchor said, "This response in from Germany: 'Hey ... we're GERMANS! If we're religiously persecuting you, you'll know about it.'"

So, yes, I definitely get where you're coming from. And no, I don't think you overreacted.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Your right, being Islamic isn't about race, but the discrimination that Muslims face isn't so different in comparison to discrimination based on skin colour alone is it ? The effect is just the same. I know you didn't mean it to but your above statement somehow made me feel my experiences are somehow cheapened because they aren't solely based on colour.


Interesting. Prejudice is prejudice regardless of its basis. We have a tendency to assume racism is an "ultimate" form of hatred or something but religious-based hatred is still hatred, right? Plenty of people have died through religious violence as well as racial violence through the years. I find it curious that you would see your experience as a victim as "cheapened" somehow. Perhaps since the last great genocide of European history was based on race, religion has less impact today somehow? Maybe if we were living in the sixteenth-century religion would seem like a bigger deal.

[Phototoxin]

It is weird. Why is beating 9 bells out of someone because they're black/white/green/whatever any different than doing it because you 'hate' their philosophical outlooks or 'hate' their political affiliations? Or even if you don't hate them and just want to mug them, then why does it make a difference. Why is it worse?

[daboarder]

Its all hitlers fault.

Industrialised genocide is just about the worst thing one population of people has ever done to another.
Now I know other genocides have been successful where hitlers was not. But to gear an industrial nation towards the destruction of people just because of their race is taking the ideal to a pretty sick new level.

Its my belief that he gave the west a pretty big guilty conscience about how they had been treating ethnic minorities.

That and people are better educated these days.

[Phototoxin]

Didn't the Japanese kill off more chinese than germans did to Jews..?

[Wolfshade]

It is weird. Why is beating 9 bells out of someone because they're black/white/green/whatever any different than doing it because you 'hate' their philosophical outlooks or 'hate' their political affiliations? Or even if you don't hate them and just want to mug them, then why does it make a difference. Why is it worse?


"Interestingly" in England and Wales you can be convicted of an hate crime for attacking goths (explicity) and by extension any member of an indentifiable sub-culture.

[daboarder]

Didn't the Japanese kill off more chinese than germans did to Jews..?

Potentially, there aren't many hard numbers on what the japanese we're doing to the chinese.

And while the japanese essentially got "let off" in a sense, for a lot of the war crimes they had committed, the point is that the germans still industrialised murder, they had 40000 factories in the occupied territories designed to production line the destruction of people....that is ****ed up!


"Interestingly" in England and Wales you can be convicted of an hate crime for attacking goths (explicity) and by extension any member of an indentifiable sub-culture.

You can anywhere can't you? I mean the definition of hate crime doesn't tie it intrinsically to race.

[White Tiger88]

I am not racist as i hate EVERYONE Equally :)

[Daemonette666]

Well my contribution might be a little useless, but it is my contribution none the less. I know what racism is, we see it plastered on the TV, in documentary reviews, we see it everywhere. You tube phone cams have heaps of videos of bashings and other stuff that I avoid looking at.

I do not think I am a Racist, but I am guilty of stereotyping people when I see them initially. If I get to know a person, give them a chance, work with them, or over time as in wargaming clubs, get to know the person somehow, my initial stereotyping generally changes and I view the person in a different way.

I think most people are guilty of putting others in a specific stereotype box - categorise a person and make our minds up if they are a threat or not. How many people have gotten onto public transport (train, bus, etc) and seen a person in a hoodie, and thought " I had better be quiet, else they may get violent", or something similar? We have a small minority indigenous population in Australia - Aborigines who have interbred with the white population over the last 3 - 4 generations. Nothing abnormal about that at all. There is a stereotype about that Aborigines are susceptible to alcoholism, drugs, are lazy, dole bludgers, who will steal form you first chance they get. Yes it is a stereo type, and has its backgrounds in areas of Sydney like Redfern, and many of the Aborigine communities up in North Queensland where alcoholism is rife.

Now I have quite a few Aboriginal, Muslim and Asian friends, and work colleagues from previous jobs, that I got on really well with, and have even stood up for when others made smart arsed remarks about them (when they were not present). But I still get nervous and pull my backpack or purse closer to me when Aborigines or hoodie wearing rapper types teenagers approach where I am sitting in a Sydney city rail train. I can not get over reacting like that, and know it probably makes the person feel bad, but it has been hammered into me by public media, peers at school (way back in the day), and other things like almost being beat up and assaulted by a large aboriginal woman for my bag one day (I fought her off as I study Brazilian Ji Jutsu and decide to let her go).

I have been the subject of abuse because of my gender, and sexuality, so i understand, and empathise for people who suffer racist abuse. I have never picked on anyone because of their race, but I have ignored it when others have been verbally picked on because they were Arabic, or because they dressed up in hip-hop/ rap style clothes. Mainly because the people who were picking on them were in such a large group, and partly because I personally do not like the way Muslim men treat Muslim women by forcing them to wear their burkas, and actually hate hip-hop/ rap culture.

Now I know a few arabic/ muslim men who I have worked with. They have treated me with respect, and not treated me like I should be ashamed to be working as a Telecommunications Rigger. I had one guy Mohammed who refused to shake my hand, but he told me that he was a devout Muslim, and he did not want to shake my hand because he "respected" me, and that a woman should be protected and not treated badly, or touched like she were a loose woman. I was happy that he took the time to explain the reason why, and he thanked me, and waved good-bye when we left work for the day instead.

Now from that I know that many cultures have their ways. I accept that I do not have the right to force them to behave in certain ways, and that they do not have the right to force me to dress as a girly -girl, or in Burkas, etc. I will admit, that I can still not get over stereotyping people until I get to know them, but I think that it is part of how we are brought up, and our cultural influences and life experiences can not be shaken off as easily as they need to be in order to be non-biased, and not racist/phobic about someone for some reason. Be it race, religion, sexuality, gender or their lifestyle decisions (clothes they wear for example).

Strangely despite all that I have said, I do not consider myself to an out and out racist.

[Wolfshade]

You can anywhere can't you? I mean the definition of hate crime doesn't tie it intrinsically to race.

I agree that you should be able to but before they were just record as assaults and not as hate crimes, it all centres around Sophie Lancaster's murder (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-22018888)
Previously hate crimes were only registered for offences against race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity.

I think that we are all guilty of stereotypying to some degree indeed, DL's experiance shows that it is concerning the group not the individual that the anger is directed at, but as we do not know all the individuals in the group it is easy to seem that as a group and not individuals.
People make snap judgements about people based on how they appear, not just skin colour but what they are wearing, their cleanliness, how they wear their hair. This snap judgement is a survival instinct where we sub-conciously assess the risk of the person approaching us. Once you get to know them, your recognition of them as being "safe" overrides this snap judgement.

It all stems to us being tribal, so we feel safe among people we are a part of and we tend to naturally gravitate towards similiar people, that is not to say that you can't have friends outside of "your group" but it is less common.

As for the Burka situation having read the koran (well an English translation thereof) it is my considered opinion that it is more cultural than religious.

The other thing with stereotypes is that they are/were based on an element of truth, but may have only really applied to a minority or memebers or even an individual. But as stereotypes become more ingrained so they become more than just a label it also becomes an expectation that some members of the group will grow up to try and fulfil, not because they want to (though indeed some will) but because this is what society tells them that they should be, so you can end up with a self fulfilling prophecy. In the same way a child that is always criticised and told that they will never amount to anything will probably do just that.

Sorry this is a bit rambly even by my standards