Setting the tone. Role modelling for BoLs?

[Mr Mystery]

Evening folks.

So, we've discussed the lowering of the tone in the 40k section. By ultimately whining about the whining.....

Anyone up for doing our bit to kick off a few constructive topics?

Theory is we agree on a few topics for discussion, then take them up top and lead by example, posting up our already considered additions.

What do you reckon?

[Nabterayl]

I'm up for it.

[magickbk]

I agree.

May I also suggest attempting to pick topics that will be more difficult for someone to turn negative? I've noticed you starting some threads recently like the gaming table and theme ones. More along this line? Obviously everything involving rules, releases, rumors, wishlisting, etc, quickly goes that direction.

[Mr Mystery]

I think we can do both.

Key is to kick off with decent discussion in the first few posts, and hope others follow suit.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Having just ploughed through a bunch of the HH novels I'd not read, topped off with the flippin' magnificent Vulkan Lives, I'm up for starting a proper discussion thread on all matters Horus Heretical. With the intent not of discussing which books suck or are bad or suboptimal but what we think about tone, characterisation, favourite moments, stunning revelations and where we think things are headed. Is that the sort of thing you want? Well? Is it? Huh?

[Mr Mystery]

Yes it dashed well is!

ONE THOUSAND INTERETS FOR FINDING OUR FIRSTEREST TOPIC!

[Nabterayl]

That sounds awesome. I haven't read any of the HH novels, though, so I ... probably won't have much to contribute. Go for it though - if I'm silent on that thread, that's why.

[Mr Mystery]

Can always chime in with questions about them?

And appropriately enough, Kerrang are showing the video for Uprising, by Muse :p

[Bigred]

There are no better ambassadors for a community than it's most passionate members.

Just as there are formal efforts that only I can do (like marketing campaigns, faster servers and such), the quality, warmth, tone and friendliness of a community can only come from you all.

Godspeed and good luck.

[Nabterayl]

Can always chime in with questions about them?
Sure, can do!

[Deadlift]

I'm in :)
How about starting a Mat Ward thread :D muhaha.

[scadugenga]

Ah the good old days of deserved drama. ..Matt Ward.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I like Ward, but aside from that...

I'm up for Heresy.

[YorkNecromancer]

I'm definitely up for this.

The thing I notice, is that as a gamer who is predominantly into the "hobby" side (converting/painting/etc...) there's not much discussion of it here. :( There used to be, but then the modelling forums all got stuck together, and sort of disappeared.

The reason I mention this is that it's kind of hard to be negative about paint and kneadatite, and I think it's fair to say that everyone needs encouragement to finish off their painting. Why don't we perhaps give that a push? Start with something simple - convert and paint a model, and then post your four photos (before, during, after sort of thing)? Maybe get people creating more tutorials that extend beyond the usual "here's how you highlight"; something on bulk painting, or colour theory?

[magickbk]

I'm definitely up for this.

The thing I notice, is that as a gamer who is predominantly into the "hobby" side (converting/painting/etc...) there's not much discussion of it here. :( There used to be, but then the modelling forums all got stuck together, and sort of disappeared.

The reason I mention this is that it's kind of hard to be negative about paint and kneadatite, and I think it's fair to say that everyone needs encouragement to finish off their painting. Why don't we perhaps give that a push? Start with something simple - convert and paint a model, and then post your four photos (before, during, after sort of thing)? Maybe get people creating more tutorials that extend beyond the usual "here's how you highlight"; something on bulk painting, or colour theory?

There are a few projects that get pretty consistent updates and commentary, but there simply isn't enough volume on there in terms of both content and commentary. Any time I work on a project I try to post up the progress, but I work slowly due to a lack of time. A few weeks ago someone requested more in terms of painting articles and tutorials. As BigRed pointed out, hobby articles are much more time consuming and expensive to create due to materials and amount of time required to both do the techniques and also record and write.

Surprisingly, sometimes 'constructive criticism' can also be an issue. Sometimes suggestions are not always worded in the best way, or seem to drive off the creators.

I think getting a few people together who have some serious hobby skills (there are a number already here posting regularly) to post projects consistently, and create a few articles on the basics to help others learn the techniques. I often feel like every tutorial on the internet is about OSL, airbrushing, green stuff, gems, etc., and what a massive percentage of hobbyists really need is the basics. How to prime properly. How to basecoat. When to use a particular technique.

[YorkNecromancer]

Surprisingly, sometimes 'constructive criticism' can also be an issue. Sometimes suggestions are not always worded in the best way, or seem to drive off the creators.

Might I suggest that if you're part of the "Let's make BoLS better" team, you consider adopting the 'WWW/EBI' system of formative marking whenever you post a comment about a person's creations.

Speaking as a teacher (monocle on, pipe out), you have to provide helpful feedback on a regular basis, and that's very hard to do, because most pupils have a natural self-hate confirmation bias - they will ignore the good, and focus on the bad, meaning you have to pick your words carefully.

So, hence the WWW/EBI system.

When you make a comment, you have to begin by focusing on What Went Well; how has the piece hit the lesson's objectives? Here, there's no lesson objective, but there is usually an artistic one. What did they want comments on (the paint? the conversion skills? etc...) Always strive to make three different, positive statements, preferably with a specific skill focus (so rather than saying "Great painting!", say "Great painting; I really like the way you've used careful drybrushing to bring out the detail, without going overboard and swamping the miniature with it")

There's then the Even Better If... What target does the person need to meet to progress to the next level? There should be a 3:1 ratio of WWWs to EBI (so if you're going to say two negative things, you need to say six positive!) This should also be phrased in a positive way - the use of the words "but" and "however" is completely out (because if yoy say that, you're qualifying their success, and have basically stated that the good things you said 'don't count'.) Again, try to be as specific as possible, and provide detail that will move them on (so instead of "Your paint's too thick", say "It looks like you haven't thinned your paint. Next time you come to apply detail, once you've loaded your brush with paint, try lightly dipping it in water to get a better consistency, and apply the colour in several thin layers, rather than a single one that might obscure detail."

This is a legitimate teaching technique, and I can assure you it works. In the UK, if a school doesn't have every single teacher in the school using a similar system, they can expect to be in trouble once Ofsted come calling...

[Chris Copeland]

Let's not forget the stick. Back in the day there was a poster that I think of as "She Who Must Not Be Named." Her combative nature, derision for anyone who disagreed with her, and her love of Sisters of Battle were legendary... as was her use of the term "douchebag." I got the impression that the mods were quite willing and ready to jump on her excessive negativity (and I appreciated that). Eventually she just moved on to other forums... which I also appreciated. Be ready to hit the "Debbie Downers" with warnings and the ban-stick as necessary... cheers...

[magickbk]

That's definitely the way to go. I used to work for GW, and although I didn't use as formal a method for critique, my personal mantra was to avoid negative phrasing, and to point out the good, as you said. The difficult part in applying that to a forum-style format is the conversational nature, and the fact that there aren't obvious teachers/mentors. In person, it's easier to start with one or two points, let the creator respond, and then continue from there, offering additional tips or lessons when the creator is receptive. Laying out a full critique in a written format on a forum becomes strange, both due to the fact that it becomes akin to a lecture, and also that he person may not know where your experience or authority comes from. Many people take instruction from a teacher or someone they know to have superior experience or skill because they know the person is more knowledgeable, or that they are there specifically to learn from them. One would be more inclined to accept painting critique and pointers from an 'Eavy Metal painter than MagickBK, as one would have to dig through the forums to find examples of my work, as opposed to having an understanding that an 'Eavy Metal painter is GW book-good, regardless of how well constructed my critique may be.

[Deadlift]

Yes it dashed well is!

ONE THOUSAND INTERETS FOR FINDING OUR FIRSTEREST TOPIC!

So how did I do with my "favorite codex" thread ;). See I started last night.

[Mr Mystery]

And a thousand INTERNETS to you!

[YorkNecromancer]

So how did I do with my "favorite codex" thread . See I started last night.

It's a good thread, and a good start. :)

[wayne williams]

sounds good also a really popular thread on the old forum i was a member of ukcord was the "what i am doing today thread " where peaple would for the most part put in a line or two about . what they had done that day hobby wise. a lot of positive ideas would take place as you could follow a projects progress from the initial idea to completion and all along we could give feedback mostly positive. seeing the more experianced painters working through also appeared to encourage newer members of the comunity to join in. i think a lot of you guys would have liked that forum. it was a very positive place. untill the painfull death of rackham tore the heart out of it. well for me anyways .

[eldargal]

May have just sabotaged all of y'all efforts by going a bit battleragey at an idiot in the 40k section, sorry.

[Wildeybeast]

EG getting angry with people? Surely not.

I just want to emphasise I wasn't moaning about moaning, merely trying to get to the bottom of why there is so much whining.

[YorkNecromancer]

May have just sabotaged all of y'all efforts by going a bit battleragey at an idiot in the 40k section, sorry.

Your penance is that you now have to start a positive thread "up there". Something about Eldar, perhaps? :)

[Mr Mystery]

EG getting angry with people? Surely not.

I just want to emphasise I wasn't moaning about moaning, merely trying to get to the bottom of why there is so much whining.

Was just self reflection there dude :) Really is little point in despairing about lowering of standards if we don't attempt to maintain them :)

Speaking of which, time for me to start one....I'll think of a subject!

[Mr Mystery]

And it's up!

[Mr Mystery]

sounds good also a really popular thread on the old forum i was a member of ukcord was the "what i am doing today thread " where peaple would for the most part put in a line or two about . what they had done that day hobby wise. a lot of positive ideas would take place as you could follow a projects progress from the initial idea to completion and all along we could give feedback mostly positive. seeing the more experianced painters working through also appeared to encourage newer members of the comunity to join in. i think a lot of you guys would have liked that forum. it was a very positive place. untill the painfull death of rackham tore the heart out of it. well for me anyways .


And idea yoinked and posted!!

[Lukas The Trickster]

I'm definitely up for this.

The thing I notice, is that as a gamer who is predominantly into the "hobby" side (converting/painting/etc...) there's not much discussion of it here. :( There used to be, but then the modelling forums all got stuck together, and sort of disappeared.

The reason I mention this is that it's kind of hard to be negative about paint and kneadatite, and I think it's fair to say that everyone needs encouragement to finish off their painting. Why don't we perhaps give that a push? Start with something simple - convert and paint a model, and then post your four photos (before, during, after sort of thing)? Maybe get people creating more tutorials that extend beyond the usual "here's how you highlight"; something on bulk painting, or colour theory?

I would second starting a sub-forum for painting and modelling advice or discussions. The other evening I wanted to ask advice or recommendation from anyone who had used Vallejo liquid gold/silver metallics, but there didn't seem to be anywhere appropriate on here to post it.

[Wildeybeast]

So here's a thought. Most of the rage happens in the rumours threads. Can we make up a rumour which will make everyone happy and generate some positivity there? Return of the squats maybe?

[YorkNecromancer]

So here's a thought. Most of the rage happens in the rumours threads. Can we make up a rumour which will make everyone happy and generate some positivity there? Return of the squats maybe?

Whatever happened the the BoLS written campaign books from way back? Could we not get some of those going again?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It is not possible to have a positive rumour. Every rumoured new thing shows that GeeDubs has totally lost the plot and that their ruin is imminent. Repeat ad infinitum.

[Mr Mystery]

Whatever happened the the BoLS written campaign books from way back? Could we not get some of those going again?

Is something we/you/us/I/etc could recruit for I guess.

It's entirely community driven you know. Even the community drivel!

[Deadlift]

I would second starting a sub-forum for painting and modelling advice or discussions. The other evening I wanted to ask advice or recommendation from anyone who had used Vallejo liquid gold/silver metallics, but there didn't seem to be anywhere appropriate on here to post it.

You should have come to Uncle Deadlift ;)
I use these paints all the time and have the full set. They are awesome paints but do require a little effort to use properly.
1. You need to shake the crap out of these before you use them, the metallic pigment settles into the bottom of the pot when not in use and builds up into a bit of a paste. Before each use you need shake them like a trooper until the paint becomes completely opaque

2 No water, these paints are alcohol based so you can't thin them with water. You need to get yourself some 100% alcohol to thin these paints. Water just won't work and will make a mess. Also wash your brush out in some alcohol afterwards. Don't use your best brushes if like me you like sable, use bog standard GW style brushes.

These paints are fantastic and I really like them, I picked up,the full set for £35 quid on eBay which included brush cleaner by Vallejo.

Anyway back on topic. :o

[Mr Mystery]

Dude! Article it!

Share the hobby know-wots. After all, we're neither Meks nor Mechanicum!

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Nicely done! Some of those threads are looking positively positive up there.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup :). Big pats on the back all round!

And now to maintain this level of cool threads!

[Lukas The Trickster]

You should have come to Uncle Deadlift ;)
I use these paints all the time and have the full set. They are awesome paints but do require a little effort to use properly.
1. You need to shake the crap out of these before you use them, the metallic pigment settles into the bottom of the pot when not in use and builds up into a bit of a paste. Before each use you need shake them like a trooper until the paint becomes completely opaque

2 No water, these paints are alcohol based so you can't thin them with water. You need to get yourself some 100% alcohol to thin these paints. Water just won't work and will make a mess. Also wash your brush out in some alcohol afterwards. Don't use your best brushes if like me you like sable, use bog standard GW style brushes.

These paints are fantastic and I really like them, I picked up,the full set for £35 quid on eBay which included brush cleaner by Vallejo.

Anyway back on topic. :o

Smashing, thanks for the gen on these. Once they are dry on the model, is it possible to shade and re-highlight them with acrylic paints and washes?

[Deadlift]

Smashing, thanks for the gen on these. Once they are dry on the model, is it possible to shade and re-highlight them with acrylic paints and washes?

They take washes very well, acrylic paints I haven't tried but I don't see why not.

[tawelwch]

I lurk around the painting section mostly and only rarely stray outside :)

Looking in the Oubliette though I wonder if the adminstrators might set up a politics and religion section? There seems to be a lot of threads on this which may suggest a demand for it :)
I hope this helps

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Nothing kills forums like the politics and religion section!

[eldargal]

Here is my contribution:

Favourite models from 40k armies you don't play (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?34889-Post-your-favourite-40k-model-from-an-army-you-don-t-play)

[Daemonette666]

Going along with or indeed adding to the modelling, conversion and painting idea mentioned back on page 1 (I think), and also adding in things like the HH era 30K type armies, we could ask people to give their ideas for army projects they want to do for any of the following

Counts as armies, and HH armies that can be used for normal 40K battles, just by adding another unit or 2, and dropping the HH only weapons units.

Give some examples and a few show case armies. I saw a brilliant painted ork army painted up as a space marine army with Mega-Nobs as Terminators, Ork Bikers as SM bikers, Orks with Backpacks like SM power packs, and so on. I have my own Pre- Heresy Thousand Sons Army that is sitting on the back burner, and has been for a while, that is a counts as Vanilla (SM) army, but done up in HH Thousand Sons colours and with a lot of the old Irina-Est resin conversion parts for Galactic Egyptian Knights.

I know there are other counts as armies floating about, and a few have made it to the show case of the front page, where they got great reviews. The Ad-mech counts as Grey Knights comes to mind.

At the moment I am concentrating on completing my Dystopian Wars Commonwealth of Free Australia fleet to compliment my Covenant of Antarctica fleet/forces.

Maybe later on after I finish that and finish my Classic Battletech tournament in October, I will get time to work on them again.

Hopefully this will not be too controversial, so much so that we get the same nay sayers and trolls that have been stirring things up.

[tawelwch]

Nothing kills forums like the politics and religion section!

This forum is still here though !? I'm not sure I really understand, sorry. I just mean there are a lot of these threads and it might deserve giving them their own area. If you're not a veery p&r person you could be put off the oubliette as it is.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

There's nothing wrong with the Oubliette, though. This is the bit of the board that's fine! I've just been on too many forums which decided that they needed a politics/religion section, and then people started going into those for the express purpose of arguing with people. It genuinely seems to have a different effect to just putting up discussions on those themes in a General board: people feel like they've got a pass to be "controversial" and confrontational.

Only a personal experience, mind. ;)

[Denzark]

The Oubliette is quite amusing, as we get to discuss everything from Tampons to Exocets (the latest vernacular for randomness).

[Mr Mystery]

I'd agree that a Politics and Religion board is just inherently explosive. The forum equivalent of giving a 5 year old kid some Nitroglycerin, and then hoping for the best.

Here in the Oubliette, they do come up, but not so much as topics in themselves, but as part and parcel of wider topics, which keeps things civil, sane, and well intentioned!

[Denzark]

My contribution:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?34893-New-ways-to-play-a-change-is-as-good-as-a-rest&p=337175#post337175

[Mr Mystery]

Awesome effort so far folks!

I'm not sure if its just an inherently improved noise/signal ratio, but there seems to be more constructive discussion going on overall.

Yay us, and yay the community on BoLs!

And another one http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?34903-Allies-and-the-interesting-use-thereof

[daboarder]

May as well join the party

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?34934-Your-40k-Soundtrack&p=337817#post337817