Is there something about 40K that makes everyone so hateful?

[Wildeybeast]

It seems a number of forum regulars have decamped down here of late and after having a look through the rage fest that is the 40K Space Marine rumours thread, I can see why. EG only put it up yesterday and there are already multiple instances of people raging about complete speculation, telling people to shut up and everyone just being generally unpleasant to each other. Sadly, this sort of behaviour seems all too common in the 40K thread. By contrast the Warhammer section is very civilised and by and large so is the Oubliette. Now it could just be due to the number of people in the 40K section (more people=more chance of arseholes & disagreements) but I can't help but wonder if there is something about the nature of 40K as a game, or more specifically the type of people who play it, that produces such hate. Do those of you who venture to other forums (traitors!) see similar behaviour in 40K threads there? Perhaps if we can get to the root cause of the hate, we can do something to address it and make the 40K section a more welcoming place.

[eldargal]

There does seem to be a radical increase in the amount of obnoxiousness sloshing around about 40k, the ridiculously hostile denial of Jervis Johnson's statement that all armies will get an update for example, in addition to what you cite.

[Wildeybeast]

I know you venture to other forums, is it the same there?

A cause could be the changes in 40K unsettling people, but I don't recall anywhere near this level of animosity over the 8th Ed. update of Warhammer (though that may just be my personal bias).

[eldargal]

Pretty much. Some very silly complaints from CSM players on Warseer example, conflating First Founding Chapter rules with Legion rules and whining about how SM get what CSM players wanted and whatnot.

It could be, getting back to the question which I forgot to address, that the sci-fi setting appeals to younger players more than WFB so there are more immature attitudes in the mix (I am in no way supporting the snobbish claims that WFB is for mature players and 40k is for kids, that's offensively stupid in my opinion). Or it could be because there are more 40k fans on BoLS there is a higher chance or feckwits.

I think it is really sad as I just had a hobby epiphany last night. I was flicking through the latest two issues of WD again and saw some of the Apocalypse art with Ig defending themselves against whoever it was and it just hit me; I really, really love the 40k setting. I might get a bit cranky about GW fudging the rules or FW screwing over eldar (again) but the setting and hobby are just wonderful.

[YorkNecromancer]

I think there's a number of factors.

Firstly, the internet is not an ideal medium of communication. You have to pick your words and structure your sentences so much more carefully than in normal speech, and even then you can be misinterpreted.

There's also the issue of ages - you have no idea if the person posting is eleven or fifty, and so you tend to treat everyone about whom you know nothing about in the same way you would a peer of your own age. This can make things awkward, especially given the number of young people involved in the hobby.

There's also the fact that these forums do tend to slant younger, and teenagers tend to be a lot more passionate about the things they are into, firstly because they lack the life experience to have distance from them, and secondly because hormones make you completely insane.

You've also got the issue that wargaming is a geek hobby, and geeks have a tendency to feel entitled to things, a sense that because they have invested so much time in a hobby, that the hobby owes them.

This is before we even get into the struggles for dominance that tend to infest every level of the internet everywhere. There's also the online disinhibition effect (the G.I.F.T) which naturally skews discussions to a more aggressive level - it's less prevelant here than elsewhere, but it still has its effect.

As for places like the Oubliette being "calmer", I think it's just the social grouping you see. I frequent the internet because there are people here with radically different opinions to myself and I like to test my beliefs and be intellectually challenged (hence the inordinate number of threads I contribute to where things get heated - I don't get that intensity of debate anywhere, and it's something I think BoLS is really good at actually - people will discuss and argue, but it very rarely gets personal, and if it does, people are quick to apologise). As well as this, there's the fact there are some people here whose opinions and responses I hold in high regard - arguments tend to include a spectrum of opinions. There seems to be somewhat more maturity here, as the people who come here tend to be those more dedicated to forum, and so tend to have more invested in "good behaviour".

TL;DR - I don't think there's a problem with 40K. I think there's a problem with people who don't have enough emotionally invested in the forums to avoid pooping on their own doorstep.

[Wildeybeast]

See, I agree with all those points, but my issue is that you simply don't get the sort of behaviour in the Warhammer forum as you get in the 40K one. The Oubliette has some very passionate and heated debates, but it usually stays civilised and rarely descends into the level of immaturity you see in 40K. It has also become more prominent of late. It could just be, as we have mentioned more people= more rage or the greater prevalence of hormonal teenagers, but I can't help but feel that maybe there is something about the nature of 40K. I'm probably reading too much into it, but could it seems rather simplistic to say that fantasy players are generally more mature and so behave better.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

A fair bit of the grumpiness seems to be when two opposing personalities rub each other the wrong way - perhaps the greater amount of traffic allows for more such reactions. (Yes I do apply basic rules of chemistry to group dynamics shush.)

[jgebi]

I'm not overly aggressive *puts down bolter (nothing like a clean bolter)* OH **** IT *grabs bolter, loads mag* high ho of to war I go. ok joke aside I do find the setting almost encourages fanatics (I am one) and our right war but this being said most people who play are ******* and properly have never punched someone let alone been in a real fight now this I am bias on as I'm rather ruff ... I think I'm just ranting now... I think it dose just come with the hobby and the large amount of visitors on the forums, but also you do have older people who've been playing the 2 years or so and tend to look down on us noobs and that's where I can see rage coming from also and I don't mean to offend but it is normally the same people raging, don't believe me go look I was surprised my self. and Warhammer is less gritty tooth and nail and more 5 star general playing golf in his office (just my view)

I don't even know if I got to the point of what I was trying to explin but who cares I've got heretics to punch out. So have a nice day and give em hell

[Build]

I think it comes to a point regardless of which side of the fence you sit (even if you're dead center) that you figure the flames and moaning is not even worth reading, it just serves to sap your enthusiasm for the hobby and you end up not enjoying any of it.

[Mr Mystery]

It has gone down hill a bit in 40k section recently.

Take Orksorksorks, and that other guy who went off on one at me and got banned. Just really confrontational, and for no good reason. Disagreeing with an opinion is fine, but the hostility they displayed was weird.

Where they're coming from, I don't know. I really like BoLs, as it's general atmosphere is much better than other sites. Not gonna name names though, as I don't think that will be at all conducive to this conversation.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I don't know what's up. Apologies if I've been snappy here and there: I don't mean to be.

[Mr Mystery]

Snappy is ok. It's a hobby the hobbyists are passionate about.

But there are people up there just being outright rude and dismissive.

Take the bloke who went mental on me when I pointed out a claim that 'small units of marines are wiping out full Ork hordes' to just be hyperbole. Dude totally lost it, even when I tried to engage with him to explain my findings. Seriously went wibbly in the head, and just kept banging on about how I was wrong and blah blah blah. Even when I explained the stats. Also caught him outright lying, which was odd.

There's a definite surge in aimless whining recently. Rather than discussing, they're dictating (not a Godwin's Law!). Why, I dunno!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yeah, I saw that. What gets me is when people get so aggressive. I'm fine with disagreement, but there's a difference between disagreeing and trying to imply the person you're talking to is some kind of drooling, barely-human imbecile who couldn't be wronger if they were Professor of Wrongness at The School of Wrong, Princeton.

Conversation's not a competition; you don't win, and even if you could, it isn't by battering your interlocutor into submission.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm also getting fed up with the general GW bashing that goes on.

I'm really utterly baffled why someone would play an expensive hobby that they don't enjoy! I mean seriously. We all spend hundreds of pounds a year on our plastic crack. And most of us do it because we enjoy the hobby experience. But for some, it all seems to be about the whining.

And many use what I would consider overly emotive language, calling stuff 'complete trash' and that. Or dishing out utterly baseless scoring like 'well done GW. Solid C-, again'. Without you know, explaining their marking scale (beyond trying to sound like a smart alec). Or describing something done as 'a kick in the face'. Having been kicked in the face, I can only assume they've never actually experienced such a thing. Because it sucks far worse than the change of any given rule!

It's as if immaturity is leaking across the intartubes. It's often impossible to get a constructive discussion going, because the whiners swoop in and start whining, using their own agreement to claim validity for their whining.

Oh, and then there's the name calling when you point out they're misinformed or otherwise mistaken about any given subject. Like 'apologist'. Which only really applies when you're going against facts. Rather than just someone's opinion. For instance, some claim GW are cooking their books, because despite internet fact, they are clearly turning a profit, and are in growth. Challenge them on that, and you're 'white knighting' or being an apologist! Their paranoia never ceases to amaze me!

[Kirsten]

I agree, I don't understand the people up there, naming no names, who do nothing but bang on about GW as though they are evil, willfully stupid, or deliberately trying to screw people. I do wonder why some of them actually come here, it is pure trolling

[Deadlift]

I've said it before, them "up there" and the hostility has put me off posting. I like to think I'm even tempered but I have to say when you come on BoLs and every other post makes you clench your fists and shake your head, well I just don't bother.
The oubliette is cool, but I am finding the same topics getting a bit cyclical for me. Don't mind me though, I'm working a feck load of hours at the moment (14 plus a day) and I'm pretty well grumpy most of the time ;)

[YorkNecromancer]

And many use what I would consider overly emotive language, calling stuff 'complete trash' and that. Or dishing out utterly baseless scoring like 'well done GW. Solid C-, again'. Without you know, explaining their marking scale

See, I know I can be quite argumentative/combative/annoying/sanctimonious/preachy/up my own arse, but I like to think I'm relatively polite about it, and try to back up what i say with evidence. Most of the arguments tend to come over what constitutes that evidence base, but then, those make for worthwhile discussions.


I like to think I'm even tempered but I have to say when you come on BoLs and every other post makes you clench your fists and shake your head, well I just don't bother.

It's okay, buddy. We got ya.

We got ya.

*manhug* :)


The oubliette is cool, but I am finding the same topics getting a bit cyclical for me.

Well, this is kind of what encouraged me to be a little more forthcoming with my blog. I'm trying to give more examples of positive stuff, rather than decrying the problems for the umpteenth time.

Maybe we need more threads down there celebrating stuff, with a kind of agreement that these threads have to stay relatively positive? We've managed it in some of them already (for the cyclical topic reason I think we all know so well).

[eldargal]

I don't know what's up. Apologies if I've been snappy here and there: I don't mean to be.
If snappy was a problem I wouldn't have any friends here.:p

Yeah, I saw that. What gets me is when people get so aggressive. I'm fine with disagreement, but there's a difference between disagreeing and trying to imply the person you're talking to is some kind of drooling, barely-human imbecile who couldn't be wronger if they were Professor of Wrongness at The School of Wrong, Princeton.

Conversation's not a competition; you don't win, and even if you could, it isn't by battering your interlocutor into submission.
Right. I just had my favourite unit of all time nerfed to oblivion in the latest codex and you don't see me ranting about how the codex sucks and GW is evil and whatever. Yes I'm disappointed but it's not the end of the world, it's not a catastrophe. I just had a bunch of my favourite Forge World eldar kits nerfed to uselessness to and I'm not raging about it. People need to get a sense of perspective.

[Bigred]

From the mod point of view, we have been seeing some folks come over from other big forums of late and as we know, every forum on the net has a distinct flavor and character to the community.

Say whatever you want about the Lounge (and we have our own issues), but we are not control-freaks, and we want people to be able to talk and communicate as much as possible on a wider range of subjects than some other communities allow. In general we give our community members a wide berth and care more about policing interpersonal decency and politeness than exact subject matter.

But that freedom does come at a price and some newcomers often take a bit to adjust to our waters. Almost all adapt and make us stronger. A tiny percentage come looking for trouble and we regrettably and reluctantly must take care of them as well - to protect us all.

Regarding Space Marines - I think the tensions are high as it's the most dominant faction in Games Workshop's largest game system - so lots more players feel personally invested in them. Who wants to see the most prevalent faction in wargaming done wrong? I certainly don't.

-Larry

[eldargal]

There are certainly some legitimate concerns too, based on what little we know. Graviton weapons could be extremely OP for example. But the key phrase their is 'what little we know' voicing concerns is fine, having cranky hysterics not so much, in my opinion. I certainly don't want to see Space Marines screwed up, contrary to popular belief I don't dislike them even if FW constantly churning them out is a bit tedious and when it comes down to it to some extent they subsidise a lot of other armies developments. Space Marines always sell well giving GW the freedom to invest that money into other armies whose sales at the time would not justify it.

[daboarder]

Its not so much that we don't want to see them done well. Its just agravating when the SM codex is expanded and built to say cover everything from iron hands to raven guard (as it should) but the chaos one is brushed of with....well nah the legions dont exist anymke these are just warbands/deal with it.

I mean WHY couldn't chaos get itswown version of chapter tactics? Of course people are going to be upset if the answer to that question is simply: because your not space marines

[eldargal]

Except that is true. There are hardly any Traitor Legions left to give Legion rules too, warband rules makes much more sense.

Black Legion - Shattered
World Eaters - Shattered
Thousand Sons - Shattered
Death Guard - Intact
Emperor's Children - Shattered
Word Bearers - Intact
Alpha Legion - Shattered
Night Lords - Shattered

Add in post-Heresy traitor Marines and there is no compelling reason to have Legion style rules in the CSM book. There is at least a considerable possibility of getting traitor legion supplements given Black Legion are getting one. But in the main book, it would be as unnecessary as including special rules for individual craftworlds.

[daboarder]

And why does that not stand for the chapters that are by primarch decree bound to a single organizational tome.

Thats basically my point entirely.

Not to mention while the legions may be shattered. The warbands themselves have nothing preventing them from operating the way they always have, unlike the loyalists.

It doesnt matter if a warband is say 5000 nightlords they are going to still fight like nightlords. Not the re corairs.

At the end of the day it comes down to why is the solutio (chapter tactics) good eniugh for one subset of fans who want it (space marines) but not the other set that basically wants the same style of setup (csm)

[eldargal]

If they were operating like Legions they'd still be Legions.:p

As to why, no idea, beyond that this seems to be one area where what a vocal number of players want isn't what GW wants.

[jgebi]

because they are different armies but I could see a few supplements for chaos but nothing like the marines just wouldn't be fluffy and if you want choas marines that play like space marines then get a space marine army or get a hh army

[daboarder]

You missed the point jgebi.


Eldargal, yeah thats basically it. And thats WHY some of the tensions run high whenever marines get their dex....

[jgebi]

thats possible but to me the whole wanting the 2 armies to play the same is ludicrous

[Cap'nSmurfs]

For what it's worth, Bigred, I like the looser moderation policy on this board. I've been plenty of places where the moderation was officious, interfering and deeply self-important, and it ain't pleasant. The Lounge is much ncier for not being that.

Daboarder, I'm hopeful that the supplements will address some of your concerns. More flavour and more options is always a good thing. The legions don't really exist anymore (except the Black Legion) but there are still plenty of old legionnaires, their fighting styles and cultures out there, adapted to their new situation as predatory raiders. So I agree that more ways to differentiate them is only a good thing. I think there's a lot of options in the existing book to do so, mind.

Although on the legions not being like the Red Corsairs.... Going from ADB's books, I'd say the Night Lords are exactly as piratical these days, and if anything, less organised. :D

[eldargal]

Yep. Of course it has helped that by and large people have been civil and haven't required extensive moderation.

[Wildeybeast]

For what it's worth, Bigred, I like the looser moderation policy on this board. I've been plenty of places where the moderation was officious, interfering and deeply self-important, and it ain't pleasant. The Lounge is much ncier for not being that.

Seconded. I think Larry and the other chaps and chappess run an excellent forum (hence why I'm here and not elsewhere) and I want to stress that I'm not complaining about the way the forum is run, or any particular posters. I just know there are a few of us who feel chased out of the 40k section by the recent unpleasant tone and was speculating about what it is causing it. It isn't just space murhines (btw could we please keep debates about them to their relevant forums, there are already plenty of those), it has been going on for most of 5th edition.

Daboarder and EG have inadvertently highlighted to me examples of the problems and allowed me to clarify my thoughts. 'Favourite unit got nerfed/didn't get fixed; this book that whack new rule and we didn't' and so on. (Some) People get really worked up about it in 40K and they don't seem to as much in Warhammer. I wonder if there is something about the nature of the game. For as long as I've been playing 40K, there has been a constant and deliberate codex creep and a drive towards having the most powerful unit in the game. Mostly this comes from the designers, though I suspect that has been partly driven by gamers. The game is focused around the effectiveness of individual units; Warhammer is much more about overall battlefield syncronicity and using units to support each other, rather than picking the most powerful units you can (especially with 8th edition introducing much more balanced army books). 5th edition 40K has also made a definite shift in this direction and that has a number of knock on effects: imbalance between old and new codexes; 'teething problems' as the designers work out how to balance the game and kill codex creep; inevitable changes to units in order to balance them and other problems I probably haven't thought of. I feel that part of the current rage is generated by such a dramatic shift in the landscape of 40K and people having to adapt to it. At least, those are my (slightly rambling) thoughts. What do the rest of you think? Has anyone noticed similar problems in other gaming systems?

[Mr Mystery]

I think part of the issue is the demand for the game to be some super competitive tournament fest type thing. Which isn't what the designers have aimed for.

Seriously, take a look at the majority of the whines. They're about tournaments, and involve bizarre phrases like 'sub-optimal'. The system is intended as a narrative game, not a competitive one.

Yes, they probably could turn it into a tournament game, but why? Tournaments represent a minority of the games played. And you don't buy a Ford Focus and then demand that Ford upgrade it to an F1 car do you?

[Wildeybeast]

Good point Mystery. I think codex creep/most powerful unit evas! did encourage that tournament mentality and they have made a clear move away from that and back to their routes of 'here's some cool models and some rules we think would be fun to use with them, go enjoy yourselves'

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed, and it's a move I applaud.

I'm not knocking those who enjoy competitive play. Just kind of suggesting 40k may not be the game they're after.

[eldargal]

Reminds me of something that I find extremely amusing if exasperating:

Fluff bunnies always complain about everything!

[Nabterayl]

Though, to be fair, not all of the BoLS whining has been competitive of late. The space marine rumor thread has a strong streak of, "Why is GW making new space marine units? The lore already tells us every kind of space marine unit there is! ARRRRRRGH!"

[eldargal]

Yep, not saying it's cropping up at the moment, just always amuses me when you see people who seem to spend hours every day whining and arguing over minor rules interpretations (instead of just rolling a ****ing die to decide it each game) turn around and accuse lore lovers of whining all the time when someone says 'Eldar tech doesn't match the background'.

[Mr Mystery]

Well, you're wrong. Clearly, it's the background not matching the Eldar tech. That's your issue. That's why you're wrong. And shouldn't be playing this game.

#arsebrain #notsofarfromwhatwehavetoputupwith

[DrLove42]

I think the issue is not 40K making people violent

its the internet. People dont say **** like this in person

[AirHorse]

Its definitely the internet. Its exactly the same on all gaming forums :(

The bols lounge has had its moments of peace as well as hostility tbh.

I stopped posting very much on here(but always read!) a good while back here because there was a period where there were a good few particularly hostile posters, and I never really redeveloped the habit for actually replying to the threads I was reading(though that is changing a bit more recently, as this post shows :D).

It goes in cycles I think, hostile posters will tend to get rejected eventually no matter what community they are part of, and when they do they will probably go find somewhere new get involved. People cant help but react if one person gets hostile so it has a knock on effect.

[Denzark]

I think there has been a couple of contributing factors not mentioned in this thread. Firstly, promotions, ie 1 x FB 'like', 1 x register, and 5 x Lounge posts, and you are in with a chance of winning Big Red's 2Ed Jervis signed underpants, that sort of thing. I understnad why it is done ie increase traffic thus revenues, but you have to accept that you get people who have no interest in this site, so don't comply with the general vibe.

Second, 'News/Rumors' posts on the main board where there is not much content and a simple link to the Lounge. I think the bellthronk comments you may have got in the front page disqus, are now migrating into the Lounge.

Without blowing too much smoke up our respective fundaments, I enjoy the debate down here, even when it would appear I am the token fascist Junta. I read most of the links if I have time and they are not massive intellectual pieces, apologies if my replies are ever too sharp during the cut and thrust of debate.

[Wolfshade]

I think the issue is not 40K making people violent

its the internet. People dont say **** like this in person

Probably quite true, look at the recent twitter-gate abuse.

But this behaviour is quite well know, it is described in psychology as Deindividuation, basically, because you are perceived to be anonymous you are no longer bound by social convention. See Derren Brown's Gameshow or any mob/riot (though in such circumstances you also have crowd behaviour to consider).

[SotonShades]

I think Wildey might have a point (well I think everyone who has commented has made at least one good point) but there is something about 40k that messes with peoples' heads, but my example has to leave the Lounge;

I have two gaming clubs; one that is primarily 40k, with some WFB and Malifaux thrown in, the other covering boardgames, card games, wargames, roleplays... the list seems to expand every week. At both, there is a significant 40k following, with most players also having a second game of choice. When discussing rules issues for those other games, most stay reasonably calm, often have a laugh at their own expense. When talking 40k, those self same players (occasionally myself included) can get entrenched and quite snappy. When talking about rumours for up coming games, they talk about what they are looking forward to, what they lament. For 40k, it's always "I can't BELIEVE gw would do...", "TOLD you xxxxyyyyxyxyx was going to happen, I am TEH BESTEST". The language becomes far more aggressive and personal. Voices get raised over 40k, but not other systems as much.

Now, it is very subtle, and nothing like as aggressive/abusive as you often see on some forums, but it is certainly there. Obviously helps that those interactions are face to face, so social niceties are still in effect. Maybe GW are better at writing background than we think, and the dystopian nature of the Imperium of Man has rattled our collective cages, getting us worked up over nothing and spilling out in to Chaos. Well, the Warp has to be fuelled somehow, who knew it was Nerdrage?

[eldargal]

I think the issue is not 40K making people violent

its the internet. People dont say **** like this in person
Unless you're a woman, in which case they probably will.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I think "it's the internet" is a strong element of it, but I think you only have to look at what's become of poor Mat Ward to see that there's a 40k specific element to it as well.

(To be fair, I quite enjoy telling opponents that their Spiritual Liege is going to kick their *** :) )

[Wildeybeast]

Yeah, the anonymity of the Internet does play a part, but we are on the Internet, having a sensible, intelligent discussion without all acting like jerks. If it was just the Internet, everyone would be like that, but we aren't. The fact is, the jerks all stay in the 40k threads and never venture into the war hammer thread or the oubliette.

Also, smurfs makes a good point about Ward. No one moans about anything he has written for fantasy.

[Nabterayl]

I do think I agree with what was said earlier - 40K is a more XTREME setting than WHFB, which I suspect lends itself to extremity in the expressions of fandom when combined with other, inhibition-lessening factors such as internet anonymity.

[Wolfshade]

Yeah, the anonymity of the Internet does play a part, but we are on the Internet, having a sensible, intelligent discussion without all acting like jerks. If it was just the Internet, everyone would be like that, but we aren't. The fact is, the jerks all stay in the 40k threads and never venture into the war hammer thread or the oubliette.

Sorry I'll stick to the 40k threads at the top :)

But then I suppose if we want to change it we have to do as Ghandi said, "Be the change you wish to see".

Perhaps there is a significant differnce between the 40k and WFB player.

[Wildeybeast]

Perhaps. I play both so it's hard to tell from my standpoint. Though I do much prefer Warhammer.

[Deadlift]

40k doesn't make people hateful, those that use the forum and topics to write hateful replies and remarks were already hateful to begin with. I like to refer to these types as the "ones who know feck all about everything" they have an anecdote for anything to prove a pointless point and generally not worth my time or energy.
There are on the other hand some genuine, kind and thoughtful people here too who do a grand job of making up for the *******s.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. As ever, it's just the vocal minority. Like my old Primary School teacher used to say, empty vessels make the most noise!

And I know it's not practical, but I do like the idea of a self moderated forum, where each thread owner can edit, redact or delete offensive/spammy/unrelated posts.

Issue of course being those mad with power. Take 40kForums. Used to have a right bellend of a moderator, who would start arguments, then using his modly powers, go back, edit his posts, and then attempt to ban the person reacting to his idiot comments.....

[Kirsten]

it isn't a 40k thing, it happens other places too, though there is a strong overlap between young guys playing 40k and young guys playing video games I suspect...

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-08-01-enough-of-the-games-media-shock-jocks

[Wildeybeast]

A good point Kirsten, there are plenty of hateful people playing video games, which is why I never play online outside of a group of my friends. Do we see the same sort of reaction amongst other game systems then?

[Mr Mystery]

It could be a victim of it's own success I guess.

Let's face it, 40k is the dominant force in tabletop gaming, and by a pretty large margin. This means it has more players. And ipso facto, will by default have more obnoxious players, though not necessarily per capita, than any other game.

Given a free forum to talk nonsense without repercussion? Yep, that will attract the obnoxious people of any stripe. And then they bounce off each other, and labour under the misapprehension that they are in fact a majority. Because all their 5 mates agree with them.

[Wildeybeast]

You are probably right. After all, the people who spout utter crap want everyone to listen to them so they go to the system/forum with most members. And they tend to attract each other like moths to a flame.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

And it's often the same (peculiar) demands/whinges.

Take the Mat Ward bashing. There's plenty of people who claim he's a terrible author, but to date, I'm yet to have someone explain why rather than simply not being to their tastes (which is fine, and doesn't require explanation) he is decried as essentially barely literate. Personally I enjoy his codecies, and find the prose just fine and dandy. Subject matter? Yeah fair enough, but each to their own (doesn't bother me personally. I quite like it!)

Ditto those (haven't seen it here, but it's rife on Dakka) who decry models as 'abortions'. Why they use that term, I dunno, as it's not exactly accurate, or even relevant (not even tenuously). Now sure, not everything is to everyone's tastes (not a fan of the Defiler myself) which again requires no justification. But it's different you state it is simply a poor sculpt/concept etc from the outset, as that does need justification (possible valid criticism, it doesn't go together well, irritating flashtags in aggravating places etc. But you just not liking the aesthetic? Belt up, grow up, or sod off)

Mind you, that's probably the same crowd who like to bash the Transformers films for being essentially 2 and a bit hour long films about 80' tall robots beating the snot out of each other, as opposed to the soul searching arthouse they were expecting.

[Wildeybeast]

With Ward, people pick up on the minor things they don't like and ignore everything else. You don't hear anyone moaning about the fantasy rules he has written, because they are balanced and well constructed. I never hear the moaners saying what they do like. It must be such a miserable existence, constantly hating everything.

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno. I'm pretty raargh about most things in the world, which is precisely why I focus almost exclusively on the things I do like, and ignore the rest, hoping they'll go away, or at least ignore me right back.

I think these guys do it because they are lucky enough to have nothing else to focus negative emotions on! Total first world problem!

[YorkNecromancer]

I've not read Mat Ward's fiction, so I can't comment. I have read his codicied, and they're okay. They may tend towards being full of OHMIGODGUYSHAVEYOUSEENTHEFGIANTROBOTSUITITCANTOTAL LYPUNCHUYOURFACEAWESOMELEVELSOFAWESOMENESS!!!!11!! !11111!! but there's a load of stuff that's in them that's fun and fluffy. I still like the fact he brought the Jokaero back.


Mind you, that's probably the same crowd who like to bash the Transformers films for being essentially 2 and a bit hour long films about 80' tall robots beating the snot out of each other, as opposed to the soul searching arthouse they were expecting.

Speaking as a Transformers fan old enough to actually remember their original release, I wouldn't bash the films for that. I watched them expecting violence and action with giant robots. What I'd bash them for would be how chronically dull they were, how utterly bereft of any kind of drama, and how there are legitimately parts of each film where things are exploding JUST BECAUSE; there's like, no-one around to attack the heroes, yet things are still exploding. There's also the fact that Transformers 2 has the two Most Racist Characters Seen In A Mainstream Film since 1933.

http://blog.carlist.my/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/beat-1.jpg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/24/transformers-jivetalking-_n_220005.html

I watched that film and literally couldn't believe what I was seeing. The only positive thing was when Robot Alan Moore showed up.

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs46/i/2009/207/0/0/Jetfire_by_LimeWire_org.jpg

Just a pair of horrible, horrible films. I had to go watch the old Animated Transformers Movie afterwards to bleach out the memories of Michael bay's dross.

[Mr Mystery]

I really liked them, because they ticked my 'dumb ***' boxes very nicely! Though yes, the twins were.......ill advised at best.

But see, your explanation there? Fair enough. That I can accept, as it's your considered opinion, and I have no place in challenging that.

However, many just decry them, seemingly without actually knowing why (and for some reason, that has jogged my memory to track down a copy of Clive Barker's Nightbreed!)

[Wildeybeast]

My problem was I wanted robots hitting each other, what I got was leery soft porn, ruined by occasional robot hitting and Sleepy Labeefs ugly mug.

[eldargal]

I liked the first Transformers film, the others not so much. Bay is a ****ing misogynist (not just for this incident) too, he deliberately killed off the female Autobot trio just because they were popular female characters and he didn't like them. This was actually retconned by the comic book adaptation, and you know something is wrong when a blockbuster film is being retconned by its comic book.

I do get annoyed when people talk about the films 'destroying their childhood memories' and whatnot. Because nothing has the power to do that except you.

[YorkNecromancer]

that has jogged my memory to track down a copy of Clive Barker's Nightbreed!

Now that is an interesting film. I used to cosplay Decker every Halloweed during the late 90's. I look forwards to the Cabal Cut getting released.

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=38217

[Mr Mystery]

Now that is an interesting film. I used to cosplay Decker every Halloweed during the late 90's. I look forwards to the Cabal Cut getting released.

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=38217

I think we just experienced a genuine Meme.....

[magickbk]

There's also the fact that Transformers 2 has the two Most Racist Characters Seen In A Mainstream Film since 1933.

You forgot about Star Wars: Phantom Menace. Although they are less racist, they do manage to spread it around to more ethnic groups.

[YorkNecromancer]

Oh, I didn't forget.

Discussing The Phantom Menace is as much a waste of everyone's time as the film itself, especially after Red Letter Media's hour and ten minute destruction of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI

[Kirsten]

"difference of opinion"
"the phantom menace?"

[magickbk]

Back on the original topic, I started wondering earlier today whether dozens of people a year sign up for a BOLS account to rage for two weeks and disappear, or whether a small number of people keep coming back every few months with a new name and fade away when everyone starts ignoring them. The grammatical construction and attitudes sometimes seem a little too familiar when combined with their supposed armies and histories.

[Denzark]

Magic - I think it is the former, and that the grammar is the same for the same reason the attitude is the same - they are numpties.

[Phototoxin]

I agree, I don't understand the people up there, naming no names, who do nothing but bang on about GW as though they are evil, willfully stupid, or deliberately trying to screw people. I do wonder why some of them actually come here, it is pure trolling

GW could give away the models free and people would still complain that they had to put them together, that finecast was crap, that X unit is broken/overpowered/useless/fugly etc.


Ditto those (haven't seen it here, but it's rife on Dakka) who decry models as 'abortions'

It's because Abortion is a very emotive term. A bit like **** used to be. Even most people who are pro-choice tend not to be pro-abortion. Also because in the last 6 months dakka has seriously gone downhill.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Its definitely the internet. Its exactly the same on all gaming forums :(

The bols lounge has had its moments of peace as well as hostility tbh.

I stopped posting very much on here(but always read!) a good while back here because there was a period where there were a good few particularly hostile posters, and I never really redeveloped the habit for actually replying to the threads I was reading(though that is changing a bit more recently, as this post shows :D).

It goes in cycles I think, hostile posters will tend to get rejected eventually no matter what community they are part of, and when they do they will probably go find somewhere new get involved. People cant help but react if one person gets hostile so it has a knock on effect.

I really agree with this Scottish AirHorse dude. I think I'm on my third cycle back on BOLS. Certain people will hack me off to the point where I quit, and then I'll get interested again and come back. Even a-much-beloved star of this forum caused me throw in the towel for a while after the 6th first came out, but she said some nice things about Corgies the other day so her poll numbers with me are moving back up. ;)

The discourse in the Obliette is distinctly different from "up above" and I do think maturity has an enormous amount to do with it. Look at the grammar of the average hardcore GW hater or GW fanboy on the 40k thread/line/forum/whatever. They read like enraged ten-year-olds half the time:

"i hate gw cose there rules are dum"

"U r dumb becuse you cant even their books:; Gw ruules"

I admit that I have no idea why some of the more-aggressive clowns would go after a reasonable guy like Mr. Mystery, though. Dare I say, it's a bit of a myst...paradox? Seriously though, there is a level of angst amongst the 40k posters that is truly perplexing. There are a lot of educated people down here, right? Anyone have a psychology degree? I'd love to hear some thoughts from that direction.

[Deadlift]

I hope grammar isn't the only indication of a reasonable poster, mines terrible :o.

[Mr Mystery]

GW could give away the models free and people would still complain that they had to put them together, that finecast was crap, that X unit is broken/overpowered/useless/fugly etc.


It's because Abortion is a very emotive term. A bit like **** used to be. Even most people who are pro-choice tend not to be pro-abortion. Also because in the last 6 months dakka has seriously gone downhill.

Yeah. I joined BoLs when I got banned from Dakka. That's over a year ago now. Such a festering hate pit!

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I hope grammar isn't the only indication of a reasonable poster, mines terrible :o.

Of course not, it is just one (of several) indicators that we may be dealing with a juvenile mind in a 40k rage fest. It is the teacher in me coming out I guess. Either that or the douchbag in me.

[daboarder]

I think ive got it.

Look ive bee reading the space marine rumours and quite frankly I thi k ive come to this conclussion that people get worked up about 40K because after all the time and effort and money we put into this hobby, gw is so loose in writing their rules that its just a matter of time until the effort time and money is wasted because of some stuoid release.

GW is far to I love with hard counters for their release schedule to handle and when one does come out it can completely screw someones army they've spent ages on over j rhe name of a whim.

[Lukas The Trickster]

Yeah. I joined BoLs when I got banned from Dakka. That's over a year ago now. Such a festering hate pit!

Bloody hell, it hardly seems possible that DD could devolve much more from the den of vitriol and bitterness I saw when I visited it over a year ago. I registered but never bothered to post, such was the amount of trolling and pointless abuse thrown about towards GW and anyone who attempted to show any enthusiasm for the hobby - 'White Knight' was I believe the terminology used for anyone who stuck up for GW and their games. Granted, I don't like everything GW produces, and some of their recent business practices defy explanation, but overall, of course I am a fan of GW, that's why I collect their stuff and play their games. If you're not, then why on earth would you collect their armies and play their games? I think a large proportion of the online community utterly misses the point here.



Look ive bee reading the space marine rumours and quite frankly I thi k ive come to this conclussion that people get worked up about 40K because after all the time and effort and money we put into this hobby, gw is so loose in writing their rules that its just a matter of time until the effort time and money is wasted because of some stuoid release.

GW is far to I love with hard counters for their release schedule to handle and when one does come out it can completely screw someones army they've spent ages on over j rhe name of a whim.

Sorry, but its a hobby, so how has your time and money been 'wasted' if you've enjoyed doing it? That's the reason for it. There seems to be all too much bitter, anguished talk these days over how your army is being 'nerfed' by proposed rules or army list changes which will (allegedly) make it barely worth playing. I have to say in the fifteen or more years I have been collecting and gaming I have never seen an army that has become 'unplayable' by virtue of one single edition of rules or codex - granted Squats got the chop, and other armies like SoB and Templars have declined in playability, but that's more through neglect and successive failure on behalf of GW to update their models and rules, rather than any sudden change.

In my opinion the growing bad atmosphere surrounding 40k seems to be the unrealistically high degree of anticipation and expectation that now seems to go with every new army book that is released, an expectation that GWs poor old games designers in Nottingham cannot possibly hope to satisfy for everyone. I can understand this up to a point, since GW charge top dollar for what they produce, but it seems that an element of the community just seem to live to be offended and disappointed by anything that GW does, usually before it has even happened. Much of it is, I suspect, just forthcoming from bored teenagers, probably the same ones you see waiting itching about outside your local GW on a Saturday morning before it opens, which is no real drama as younger people tend to be more excitable and dramatic, I know I was at that age. But if it isn't, then I think many members of the online community really need to ask themselves what enjoyment they are actually deriving from the hobby, and if so ultimately what is the point?

[daboarder]

Wasted? Well being told that an army I spent the better part of two years on no longer has rules would be pretty close.

Ya know what is annoying. Being told to "chill" when I'm upset because something I've spent thousands of dollars on and hundreds of hours doing, changes arbitrarily. Of course people are going to get upset about that, but posters who post just to say "get over it" in some self righteous and sanctimonious fashion are part of the problem.. basically its usually just passive aggressive trolling, its also typically hypocritical as such posters tend to be the first to get uo in arms about thejr own armies either getting changed or not getting charged.

[Denzark]

Don't bother with the front page thread on the Black Legion Supplement, it is full of proper bellthronkers tonight.

[DarkLink]

n a-much-beloved star of this forum caused me throw in the towel for a while after the 6th first came out, but she said some nice things about Corgies the other day so her poll numbers with me are moving back.

Melissa;)?

[Drunkencorgimaster]

"Don't bother with the front page thread on the Black Legion Supplement, it is full of proper bellthronkers tonight."


Me too I'm afraid. That price tag for a 'supplement' put me in sticker shock. I lashed out at the apologists. Plus I'm drunk for the first time in a few weeks. Hear my confession.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

"Melissa?"

Ha! I have not heard that name in a while.

By the by, I had a game at a tourney the other day with a dude who claims he knows you. Michael Emmison ring a bell? He said you are a friendly dude in real life too.

[Lukas The Trickster]

Wasted? Well being told that an army I spent the better part of two years on no longer has rules would be pretty close.

Which army are you referring to? And where or who exactly told you this? Most of the recent 'discussions' surrounding 40k that prompted this thread involve Space Marines, so I assume that this is what you mean.


Ya know what is annoying. Being told to "chill" when I'm upset because something I've spent thousands of dollars on and hundreds of hours doing, changes arbitrarily.

I didn't say that, I just cant see how you would feel that you have wasted your time doing something enjoyable, that is collecting and painting an army, which is the essence of the hobby after all, at least it is to me. If what amounts to such a critical part of the hobby left you with such a sense of dissatisfaction or indifference, that you now feel that you have wasted your time due to changes in the rules that haven't even dropped yet, I would question what you actually get out of this hobby. Each to their own though, the way I see it you have the option of;

1. Waiting to see what actually happens.
2. If the new codex for your army is so utterly inimical to you, either stick to playing with an older set of rules, or sell your army in the classifieds section or on ebay. If you have spent so much time and money on it then you should be able to get something for it. Then with the money you make you can either
A) Start a new army that has rules and miniatures to your liking
B) Leave and start a new hobby.


Of course people are going to get upset about that, but posters who post just to say "get over it" in some self righteous and sanctimonious fashion are part of the problem.

Again, putting words in my mouth. You might say I am part of the problem, I just think I have more of a sense of perspective on what's actually important, and in trying to get what is good out of the hobby, rather than letting this forum go downhill, which is after all the reason this thread started. But if you were to ask the membership here what their opinions were of the two of us based on our conduct on this forum, I would imagine that most of them would be largely indifferent of me and my presence on here, I haven't posted much and when I do I don't tend to get involved in arguments (much), as frankly the politics of the hobby don't interest me really. Based on the way you come across in your posts, and how other posters respond to you, I would be willing to bet a decent amount of money that most of them would probably have a more extreme reaction towards you, however.



basically its usually just passive aggressive trolling, its also typically hypocritical as such posters tend to be the first to get uo in arms about thejr own armies either getting changed or not getting charged.

I have never said anything of the kind on here. Like I say in my previous post, I don't blindly like or agree with everything that GW releases, but I would consider myself a definite fan and enthusiast, else why would I collect their stuff? As to passive aggressive content, just read back through your quote above.

I don't claim to know you or your troubles in life Daboarder, nor do I mean to condescend you, but judging by the way you come across on here you seem to be an extremely frustrated and angry person, who much of the time just seems to want to come on here to argue, and to be contencious and devisive, to the extent that in my opinion, as a relative newcomer, you are at least partially responsible for the way things have gone downhill on here lately. I am afraid that it has got to the point where If I see that you have posted, I usually just skip over it - if this is the case for me as an individual who doesn't even know you, and I suspect that it isn't just me, do you really feel that you are making a good impression and contributing positively?

I haven't enjoyed posting this, respond if you like but I have said my piece and will probably choose not to reply as I wont be drawn into an argument with you, it would not be productive. :(

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It'd be pretty ironic to have a blazing row in the thread about how we wish there weren't as many blazing rows.

[daboarder]

WOW! Lukas, about 2 3rds of what I just typed wasn't even directed at you, clearly if your not one of those posters I was talking about then nothing I said should upset you like that, unless of course you have a guilty conscience.

[Psychosplodge]

http://i41.tinypic.com/2gwryif.jpg

[Cap'nSmurfs]

P: King's Pawn to E4.

K: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! *whirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrkssschchchhchckt*