Hardest army to play and win with

[Ravingbantha]

First off let me apologize if this question has been hashed time and again, but my search-fu is weak and I could not find a current answer. So here is my delima...

I have been playing eldar since 2nd edition and they have always been easy for me to win with. The new codex just made it almost too easy to win with. Space marines are coming out with a codex in a month, so in addition to the surge in new players we can expect a more powerful army.

So what army do people seem to have the hardest time playing and winning with? I'm tired of hearing my friends complain that the only reason I win is because I play Cheddar.

[Sly]

Uh, Sisters of Battle are a clear winner here, but that's largely because they're not a "true" codex. Dark Eldar also have difficulties, especially if you do not bring in a good amount of Eldar to support them.

My suggestion would be Dark Eldar, and you could re-use many of your Eldar units, especially if they are done in a dark style. Call them Eldar Corsairs, use DE rules, and a mix of Eldar/DE miniatures, and you don't even have to get as many units to field a new army as you would if you went all-new like Marines.

[Ravingbantha]

going with an all new army isnt that big of a deal for me. My debt to income ratio allows me a fair ammount of 'fun money' and having a wife that into the game as well helps with the 'nagging factor'. I will DE a look though. I know some people have complained that their a high poison army, which would seem to work heavy. I kinda like SOB, but I really hate dealing with metal mini's

[YorkNecromancer]

Of all the "real" codexes, Dark Eldar are definitely one of the most unforgiving. They're not weak at all, and capable of some absolutely horrifying brutality, but they're not an army you autopilot. Mistakes will absolutely cost you. I would say that Eldar seem similar, but I've not the experience to say one way or the other as yet.

[jifel]

DEldar are tough to use but potentially stupidly good. Orks are also pretty rough to play, but less rewarding I think. Same with SOB and Blood Angels.

[Cactus]

I've had some nasty defeats at the hands of the Dark Eldar, but DE players don't even seem to be very excited about their armies.

Personally, I think orks are great, and my foot-slogging 30 ork mobs do just fine!

[Sly]

I've had some nasty defeats at the hands of the Dark Eldar, but DE players don't even seem to be very excited about their armies.

Every army in the game can beat you up badly once in a while, with a good player, a good list, and good luck. Problem for the DE is that they pretty much need all 3, if you have just 2 of those. That's why they're the hardest army with which to do well other than SoB... and maybe even worse than SoB. They cannot win if they don't have a good list, they cannot win if they don't have a good general, but even with both of those... if they have a bit of bad luck, they find it hard or impossible to recover.

Eldar are a bit in the same way, but not as bad since their Psychic abilities give them more re-rolls, they have more twin-linked weaponry, Battle Focus keeps them out of CC that may crush their shooty units, and they have a few good and tough units (anything Wraith-based, Warp Spider, and Scorpions). Dark Eldar really have nothing good and hard other than Beastmasters, almost all of their shots are not twin-linked, and they fly in oil-soaked paper airplanes. While smoking cigars.

[Sly]

Some more ideas, BTW, would be to play armies from good Codices, but run limited versions of them:

- Grot Rebellion out of Orks (anything Grot-based, plus Warbuggies, HQs, and Mega-Armor Nobs (Grots in mini Killa Kans) )
- Lost and the Damned out of IG/Chaos: Cultists, Mutilators, Oblits, Chaos Spawn, Ogryn, Chosen, Defiler/Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, etc, but no actual CSM troops and no Flyers.
- Deathwing out of DA
- Legion of the Damned using any Codex: Power Armor, Terminators, and Dreads, only.
- Psyker Prison Planet (my personal GK army: Coteaz, Henchmen squads of Psykers, allied IG with a Psyker Battle Squad and some Veterans as the normal troops tasked to keep the Psykers on-target, and fill points with vehicles).
- mono-God Daemons.
- Loganwing, especially all-Terminator Loganwing.
- Dantewing out of BA: Sanguinary Guards as the only Troops.

Etc. You don't make deliberately bad lists, but you do limit the units available to a particular theme. That ends up with a relatively limited army, but doesn't limit you to just the worst Codex or two.

[jgebi]

honestly I think their all as hard just comes down to how you play and how you make your list, so maybe try a fluff based list? they are harder to use but lets you become one with your army. But if you want to change I would go orks just because they are the opposite of what you are use to and should make life fun. Also they have the coolest tanks well I think so atlest.

[YorkNecromancer]

Dark Eldar really have nothing good and hard other than Beastmasters, almost all of their shots are not twin-linked, and they fly in oil-soaked paper airplanes. While smoking cigars.

Lelith Hesperax assaulting out of one of those open-topped paper planes while backed up by a unit of four enhanced Grotesques.
Double Splinter Cannon Venoms with five kabalite Trueborn equipped with Splinter Carbines.
Three Ravagers with, well, whatever guns you like. Dark Lances and Disintegrators are both devastating.

Their units are absolutely vicious; you just have to careful, because your planes are indeed made of paper. :)

[Archon Charybdis]

Yeah, my Dark Eldar are still performing just fine. Being T3 with paper armor isn't particularly problematic when everything in your army is fairly cheap and still tote above average firepower. Ravagers, Trueborne, Incubi, and Venoms in particular all pack a hefty punch for a pretty cheap price, and while most succesful builds rely on some combination of these units for the heavy lifting I wouldn't say there are any outright BAD units in the book. Everything else is solid to good, depending on the context. And that's another thing I like, is it's still very viable to build a list along thematic lines, be it Kabal, Wych Cult, or Haemy Coven.

[YorkNecromancer]

Everything else is solid to good, depending on the context.

Totally agree. Dark Eldar are absolutely hardcore, just very, very unforgiving of mistakes. They're not a "beginner's army".

[Ravingbantha]

so basicly there's no longer an army that you show up with and people wonder if your didnt take the short bus for spending money on those minis.

[Daemonette666]

Blood Angels are a good army and have a very decent chance to win games. They have assault deep striker units that can assault on the turn they deep strike, fast tanks (predators and vindicators), deep striking landraiders, Special HQ units that give their units bonuses, Apothecaries galore that can joint units to give them FNP, and lots more. They are good.

Sisters of Battle however are the current underdogs. They have toughness 3 units that although they have armour value 3 power armour, only get medium ranged weapons at most. They have one long range tank, and it is usually the first target for the enemy. Their assault units are lack luster, their heavy weapons are range 24" Muti-meltas/ 36" heavy bolters , Heavy Flamers. The rest is Bolters, melta guns, and flamers. They have BS 4, but they are limited to Rhinos and Immolators for transports which get shot up easily. They have nothing to deal with fliers, and have no fliers of their own. Their faith points/rules were Nerfed, so no more invul saves, or other nice rules to get them though it all. I still love them, but do not filed them in games anymore, unless my opponents agree for me to be able to use allies like my CSM or Traitor Guard.

Orks can still be brutal. You have the numbers to get into assault, and if you use the bikers, trukks, jump pack units, outflanking units, and characters like Ghazghul, you can womp many an opponent regardless of the number of Boyz dey iz choppin up on da way to kloz kombat. Add to that the random high number of long range str 7 shots from their heavy support troops (from memory up to 15 in a squad with D3 shots each), and they still are in there with a chance.

Nids are worse off than them, but not by that much. Sisters of battle are the one that will be disadvantaged the most in any game (currently).

[magickbk]

My experience so far with Dark Eldar is table, or be tabled. I haven't played many games with them yet, but I haven't had any closely fought games. Objectives haven't mattered after about turn three in any game. What I've found is that either the early shooting is devastating to my opponent and then I zip around picking off remaining units before finishing them off in assault, or I miss with my entire army, and most of my vehicles get vaporized leaving my units unsupported.

Case in point: last game I fired my entire army at a Tervigon. Doing the mathhammers, I should have been able to kill 2 Tervigons with that. I did 1 unsaved wound, thus not hurting my opponent at all, and wasting my first turn.