How GW could tap into the female market

[eldargal]

I've mentioned a lot about how I think GW (and other tabletop wargaming companies) are missing out on the largely ignored female geek demographic, but it occurs to me I've never spelled out exactly how they might go about doing so. So now I will. This is by no means an exhausting list and I'm not a marketer, so please add your own suggestions and feedback:

Lore Changes:
None. 40k/WFB are pretty good when it comes to women and actual changes aren't necessary. 40k is brilliant, you just need to get that message out to the female geeks. Ditto for WFB.

Approach to Lore:
GW already do pretty well for female characters in some ways.

Model range:
GW can sculpt women now, they are also very good at not sexualising female sculpts. Revamping Sisters of Battle, some plastic female Imperial Guard, some more female Eldar and some more female sculpts like commissars, Inquisitors and so forth would be a big step forward.

Advertising:
I'm not a marketer, and GW don't advertise much, but things like making sure when stores are photographed for White Dwarf or whatever there are some girls playing a game in the background to give the impression the stores are female friendly and not completely dominated by males would be a start. WD has improved by having a token female on staff (no offense to her intended, she's lovely) and showing off her painting projects with the rest of the staff. I hope she gets to play in a battle report eventually (assuming she wants to). GW have a few female writers on staff, it would be great to see one of them writer an codex or army book, but again they have to want to do so. Given the amount of **** thrown at the dev team I wouldn't blame them for determining never to do so.

Meh this format isn't working, so I'll cut to the chase and say what I'd do:

-Identify some of the larger female geek websites and geek websites with high profile female contributors. For example The Mary Sue, Geeky Girls Love scifi and some of the more popular geek girl blogs. Invite them to some demo games and painting tutorials, give them each a free copy of Dark Vengeance or Island of Blood or whatever and ask for their feedback on how to attract more women to the game. Then listen.

-Give those same websites and blogs something exclusive that will boost their traffic, be it an interview, excerpt from a BL book or even a free battleforce or something to give away as a prize in a competition. Send some of the more literature-minded blogs/websites advance copies of some Black Library books (preferably those with some strong female characters, of which there are more than you might expect) to review.

-Invite some to Games Day, give them free tickets. Have official cosplay competitions (open to both genders of course) at Games Day.

-Write more books with female leads, keep the female characters in the books strong. Don't ****ing Fridge them (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WomenInRefrigerators). BL aren't actually doing too badly on this front, many of their books have some female supporting characters, most of them are quite strong. Some, like Amberley Vail, are just fantastic. BL have gone from having virtually no female lead books a few years ago to having Path of the Seer, Shadowsun, Valkia, Neferata and two SoB books out, that's not bad at all. Keep it up.

-Don't fall into the trap of 'armies for girls'. There aren't any. Revamping SoB won't make every geek girl take up SoB, but it will help the 40k setting appear less like a boys-only club hopefully resulting in more women getting into it. They may take up tyranids or Orks, it doesn't matter. The problem is making the hobby seem to welcome women, not drive them away.

Thought, suggestions, opinions?

[daboarder]

MOAR BOOBS!!

But seriously all well thought out points, I think GW doesn't need to change much other than some of the 40k representations, interestingly 40k has a background more suited to gender equality but fantasy tends to have a better representation of female models. And YES please someone release female guard....

As to generating a female market? I think that will happen in time, as the "gaming" audience becomes more mainstream and diversifies we are seeing a rise in the number of "female gamers" the logical extension is that such gamers will seek out different games and experiences and as such get into 40k in the same way that many males get into, through the books, computer games, RPG's and so on.

One caveat I would say would be about a SOB revamp, I wouldn't change their style much or at all, their armour is as much ceremonial as functional. Its a sci-fi female gothic plate type thing, and sure it can be thought of as sexualised and over the top, but hell this is 40k where everything is ramped up to 11 and entire planets are nuked for rounding errors on tax returns.

one another note: I cannot WAIT to see what FW does with the sisters of silence

[Wolfshade]

I think it would interesting and perhaps beneficial to understand how those rare gaming ladies do get into the game in the first place. If there is a common theme then that could beused and exploited.

I think part of it is that a lot of gamers get into it in their teens and it is more socially acceptable for a guy to be a geek then a girl. This seems to be changing, but I think that there is a signifcant difference between the "fashion" geek girl and the actual geek girl, hmm that sounds more offensive then I would like. What I mean is that it seems that fashion has honed in on an untapped market and has made it popular so you have some people that follow the trend who are not of the mindset. In the same way you get people who dress and associated with other groups but do so only because it is fashionable to do so. Urgh, still not greatly worded.

So the geeky guys are quite happy to share their hobbys with each other, whereas the girls aren't because they are not "supposed to be geeky" because "society says so". Then of course you have the lack of social skills of these younger male gamers so even if they wanted to tell their female counter parts they are unable to speak to them.

It seems that it is all about tearing down the veil of social normals and pre-conceived perceptions. If you like war gaming you shuold be able to do it readless of sex, if you like football or handegg you should be able to do (though in physical contact sports I can see why there is gender seperation).

GW would need to descriminate the females in photographs more, give them a higher representation, so that those who are curious are able to see, yes she does it so can I. I would also say that it needs to educate it's male gamer base that wargamers are wargamers regardless of sex.

I think like EG says the trap of armies for girls is a bad mistake. They should not feel pigeon holed to play a certain race, for example it would never be suggested that men can't or shouldn't play SoB.

[eldargal]

Good point Wolfy, my only concern with that is that because there are so few of us (relatively) that any common themes might not be particularly representative or helpful but still worth investigating.

Right, which is why I think targeting an existing geek demographic would be better. It's going to be really hard to encourage teenage girls to get into it, but getting them when they are older and more comfortable with their geekiness shouldn't be too hard. I'm not sure the geek chic crowd is worth worrying about, not sure it is as prevalent as people think.

As being a female geek becomes more acceptable some of these problems will reduce, but in the meantime I think targeting existing 'out' geek girls is more sensible than trying to indoctinate them at a young age.

Basically I think GWs thrust (hur) should be two-fold:
a) Make the hobby as female-friendly as possible, most of the building blocks are there it is just a matter of developing them.
b) Target the existing & growing online female geek community and try and get them interested. There aren't many companies that actively go after them in this way and it could earn a lot of good will for a negligible investment from GW.

[Wolfshade]

I certainly don't think that it is an either/or solution, but the one might help inform the other. I know the dangers of small number statistics.

Sounds a simple solution, so we now need to send you up as a blogging tsarina to promote fem40k, you can use pink and gliterry things...

[Psychosplodge]

So you're suggesting we dissect one of these rare and elusive creatures to see what makes it tick? Might be a step too far, can we afford to lose one like that?


It would certainly make sense to attract this group.

pink and glittery like this?
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/p480x480/5982_614501858568241_1605637169_n.jpg

[DrLove42]

I think you need to dispel the "teenage boy virgin" image that surrounds the hobby

[Kirsten]

because there are so few of us (relatively)

there are so few of us because we are like concentrated awesome and the men couldn't handle more of us ;)

[Psychosplodge]

Maybe we should have a sticky thread with a list of female gaming blogs to help encourage it? I mean how much easier would it be if you could say to someone that shows an interest, here go check out these links?

[Wolfshade]

there are so few of us because we are like concentrated awesome and the men couldn't handle more of us ;)

I thought it was we shouldn't handle you because of a) lack of interest, b) fear of phsycial violence

[Psychosplodge]

c)distance

[Wolfshade]

c)distance

That's what a quiter says...

[eldargal]

there are so few of us because we are like concentrated awesome and the men couldn't handle more of us ;)
There is that. Nearly killed a few boys when a GW staffer asked me if I was buying whatever it was for my boyfriend and I replied 'Nope, it's for my girlfriend'. I swear you could hear the noise being sucked out of the room.

[Psychosplodge]

That's what a quiter says...

I don't like boats...


There is that. Nearly killed a few boys when a GW staffer asked me if I was buying whatever it was for my boyfriend and I replied 'Nope, it's for my girlfriend'. I swear you could hear the noise being sucked out of the room.

And they all suddenly needed to sit down? :rolleyes:

[eldargal]

They were already sitting down but everyone froze and there was absolute silence until I asked if I could please pay for the items.

[Psychosplodge]

No token female staff in that branch?

[eldargal]

Not that day.

Also, while I'm focusing on the female market on account of, you know, being female the same question applies to other demographics. How to increase the prominence of GW/tabletop wargaming in non-white communities for example.

[Wolfshade]

Well in the Japan region most of the gamers are in fact Japanese not white-men!

[Psychosplodge]

Not that day.

Also, while I'm focusing on the female market on account of, you know, being female the same question applies to other demographics. How to increase the prominence of GW/tabletop wargaming in non-white communities for example.

Well the easiest way would be to set up an educational program - emphasising maths/craft/art or whatever and taking it into schools. It'd probably be tax deductible somehow.

[eldargal]

Right, but I was thinking more in the tabletop culture epicentres of UK, Europe, North America and Australia (maybe? Seems like they have a similar proportion of sales per capita to us). Though it would be interesting to see how GW advertising in Japan works with all white men in the art. Then again there is that whole anime thing where everyone looks white so not sure what's going on there.

[Kirsten]

They were already sitting down but everyone froze and there was absolute silence until I asked if I could please pay for the items.

I went into the Liverpool store once and the two staff members at the painting station looked up at the same time, both like gollum. mixture of shock and annoyance, both rather unkept, not all the lights on in the store. not sure what they actually said to me because all I heard from them was 'what does it want precious?'

[Morgrim]

A lot of people get into Warhammer via word of mouth or friends dragging them in, and in my experience women that are in the target market tend to be involved in the sort of social groups that are often targeted anyway. So a good chunk of the barrier seems to be ensuring that once you have their interest they're not immediately turned away by 1) people overhyping Space Marines as the best army because they're hypermasculine supersoldiers rah rah why would you play filthy xenos (I have seen this happen, I wanted to smack the person involved for using memes on someone who wouldn't understand them and only be driven away) and 2) having gaming stores that aren't going to make the environment so uncomfortable that women won't hang around there.

Unfortunately for GW both are things that happen mostly on the local level. They can make it clearer that women DO play and are welcome but that doesn't save them if the local stores treat anyone female as an intruder/sex object. I lucked out in my area with having a good scattering of females so I don't have any horror stories but way too many women do.

[eldargal]

Right, that is a big issue with it and something that is mostly beyond GWs control outside encouraging it's stores to be female-friendly. My hope would be that if you get enough interest in the lady-geek online community enough of them might be interested enough to go to clubs together and reduce the 'oh god I'm the only woman in a room full of neckbeards' effect.

[Wolfshade]

I still think enforcing mandatory minium levels of hygene wouldn't go a miss...

[Denzark]

EG - you know if you got more female gamers into it, and then went for a new non-white demographic, the percentage of female gamers would in all likelihood go down? Just confirm, is it numbers you want or hard percentages?

I for one am all for more gamers of any demographic, makes getting games and clubs easier. The flip side for the conspiracy theorists is that it would strengthen the GW position....

[eldargal]

That doesn't necessarily follow. women are half the species, you make the hobby more accessible to women and non-white people then it won't follow that the percentage of females will go down. The ideal is both, overall numbers go up and the percentage of women too. I'm not silly enough to think it would ever approach 50/50 but it doesn't have to, we just need to reach the point where something like tabletop wargaming isn't seen as a 'boys hobby'. That sort of thinking is archaic and counter-productive to everyone, including GW.

[Denzark]

It doesn't necessarily not follow. Say you go for Islamic gamers next. The chances of a similar percentage of that demographic being female is remote I would guess.

For the company to go for a new demographic of any colour, creed or variety, they would need to be 100% convinced that the design and advertising changes are worth it as a ratio of extra profits.

Having read the annual report, going on about sustainable growth and all, that hurdle would be the key one. They could probably model something like so:

Income of goods sold at RRP (£RRP) - advertising budget per head of gamer (£a) - design studio input (£d) - production costs (£p) = £profit margin per head (pph). £RRP - £a - £d -£p =£pph.

So to make it worth their while, whatever you change, pph at the end can't change - or they won't countenance the change. I don't even think they would go out on a limb as the business doesn't seem to roll on risk like some dodgy hedge fund. You can't even tell them to look at something else like computer games and show them rising profits with extra female gamers, because the view that GW has of themselves is as a specific luxury item to which market forces don't equally apply as with other goods.

[YorkNecromancer]

you know if you got more female gamers into it, and then went for a new non-white demographic, the percentage of female gamers would in all likelihood go down?

There's also some really, really unfortunate implications in what you're saying. Your argument is basically: higher number of non-white gamers = lower number of female gamers.

Which implies:
1.) No such thing as non-white female gamers. (Do black women not even exist as a potential gamers/customer base? How about Asian women? Are they that invisible/unthinkable? They're not unicorns! I know several!)
2.) Why would the number of female gamers drop AFTER getting non-white gamers interested? You are outright stating that female gamers somehow dislike non-white gamers. I'm just going to leave that implication there; I don't even want to discuss it further.

Now, I don't think you necessarily meant things in this way, but the implications within your statement are unavoidable.

There's also the phrase "In all likelihood"; well, in all likelihood based on what? Because I tell you, if there were people in my gaming group who left because they weren't comfortable with people of all races and genders?

Good riddance.

[eldargal]

You're really grasping at straws. Even if one female for every ten males join the hobby it is still better than the 1-33 ratio the US survey suggested. It doesn't even matter of the percentage of female gamers only goes up to 10% or something it is still more money for GW.

Sustainable growth is about expanding beyond your existing demographic, not ignoring them because you're too scared to look beyond white middle class kids. The costs will be minimal. This art has to be made anyway, so including a few non-white people and women isn't going to cost more. The costs of actively trying to engage with the female geek community, something no other wargaming company has attempted and few geek-related companies in general have attempted, would be minimal and the potential rewards well worth it.

You seem trapped in this idea that women are some kind of sub-culture. We aren't. We are over half the population. With money. Who get ignored by most industries. You try and make the hobby more inclusive to women, you might get some non-white women. You make the hobby more inclusive to non-white people, you might get some women. As I said, the actual costs are minimal. The basics are all there, all GW have to do is highlight them a bit more actively and go out there and engage with the female gamer community (and the non-white gamer community, I don't know if there are any forums/websites/blogs dedicated to them, I hope so)

[Denzark]

Yorky you misread. I am trying to drill down what's important to EG - a percentage, or numbers. I said that it is likely that the PERCENTAGE of female gamers would go down. Not the numbers which MIGHT imply what you think it does, but the percentage. Because I think demographics based on colour or religion (equally as valid as any other demographic for GW to try to increase beyond current base) would probably skew the females down - because you are not just simply increasing numbers based on chromosomes but accounting for cultural differences. And some females would count under both demographics, for sure, but I doubt equally white vs non-white and some cultures are less ... liberal ... about what they let their women folk do.

Is the difference between percentage and actual numbers clear, the latter lets you make implications that aren't there, the former points out the problem of demographics based assessment.

[Psychosplodge]

There's also some really, really unfortunate implications in what you're saying. Your argument is basically: higher number of non-white gamers = lower number of female gamers.

Which implies:
1.) No such thing as non-white female gamers. (Do black women not even exist as a potential gamers/customer base? How about Asian women? Are they that invisible/unthinkable? They're not unicorns! I know several!)
2.) Why would the number of female gamers drop AFTER getting non-white gamers interested? You are outright stating that female gamers somehow dislike non-white gamers. I'm just going to leave that implication there; I don't even want to discuss it further.

Now, I don't think you necessarily meant things in this way, but the implications within your statement are unavoidable.

There's also the phrase "In all likelihood"; well, in all likelihood based on what? Because I tell you, if there were people in my gaming group who left because they weren't comfortable with people of all races and genders?

Good riddance.

No he isn't york, if you were a maths teacher you'd see his point :D

All he's saying is assuming you increase the appeal to the non-white demographic and the odds are they'd be male, even if actual numbers of females were up, as a percentage it's entirely possible it would look like they'd decreased if other demographics of the not the white male variety had increased as much or more.

[Denzark]

You're really grasping at straws.


I'm not grasping at anything - I have already said extra numbers is good for the game. What I am asserting is that for GW to make any change, they have to be convinced the bottom line will go up. Send them your business plan, I really am not opposed.


Sustainable growth is about expanding beyond your existing demographic, not ignoring them because you're too scared to look beyond white middle class kids.

That's over simplifying it. Who says they are scared? I know for a fact it costs more per head for advertising to get non-whites (I apologise if this is not the approved term) to join the UK military but they are ain't in the business of profits. If the costs for convincing a new demographic to take an increased part in GW starts to do anything other than make your profit line increase, then it isn't automatically good business.

The costs will be minimal. This art has to be made anyway, so including a few non-white people and women isn't going to cost more. The costs of actively trying to engage with the female geek community, something no other wargaming company has attempted and few geek-related companies in general have attempted, would be minimal and the potential rewards well worth it.

Good, write and ask them why they don't make this guaranteed extra buck? Might be a job in it.

You seem trapped in this idea that women are some kind of sub-culture. We aren't. We are over half the population. With money. Who get ignored by most industries. You try and make the hobby more inclusive to women, you might get some non-white women. You make the hobby more inclusive to non-white people, you might get some women. As I said, the actual costs are minimal. The basics are all there, all GW have to do is highlight them a bit more actively and go out there and engage with the female gamer community (and the non-white gamer community, I don't know if there are any forums/websites/blogs dedicated to them, I hope so)

I'm not saying what you are saying is bad EG, I repeat, more numbers of anyone (white protestant hetero able-bodied males included) is good - more gaming clubs, more money to the company. All I am saying is that you talk about how EASY it is, I am suggesting GW would only be worried about how PROFITABLE it is.

[eldargal]

I've already answered that, both. The white middle class demographic in Britain is pretty much saturated. Virtually all of them grow up aware of Games Workshop, if they are interested, they get into it, because it is a hobby they feel is aimed at them. So you aren't going to increase recruitment from that demographic much. You lose some to churn & burn and competitors, normal and good. What a company wants to do in that circumstance is find a demographic then can tap into that their competitors have missed and the most obvious is women. Being a female geek is becoming much more socially acceptable but the relevant industries are, in general, lagging behind and tabletop wargaming worst of all. You have a company come out and say 'hey, we see you there, we WANT you to enjoy our products. We WANT you to feel we see you and not just your brothers and boyfriends, as customers' and you have a chance to recruit from a brand new segment of consumers.

To use an example from the video gaming industry: Bioware. In 2001 Bioware released Baldurs Gate II and in that game they did something unusual, they made romances for female characters. They didn't actually think women played their games, but the reaction from female gamers to that was electric. Turns out there were all these women out there interested in gaming who felt completely ignored and when a developer threw them a bone, even without realising they were doing it, these women formed a connection to that company. Bioware continue to make inclusive games (not just female friendly) and they continue to be appreciated for it. It makes Bioware money.


I'm not saying what you are saying is bad EG, I repeat, more numbers of anyone (white protestant hetero able-bodied males included) is good - more gaming clubs, more money to the company. All I am saying is that you talk about how EASY it is, I am suggesting GW would only be worried about how PROFITABLE it is.
Fair enough, the fact is no one will know until someone tries. But if you were a company looking at a potential new demographic would you rather take a risk and try and get into it (hur) or would you rather sit back and possibly let a competitor get their first? also I don't think it will necessarily be easy, I think there are easy things they can try but it will take effort and commitment. Not necessarily great expense, but effort.

As it happens as this topic grows and we get more feedback I might even write to GW with the ideas, not in any hopes of getting a job with them (does not want) but in the hopes they might think 'yeah, there is something in this' and make an effort to reach out to the female geek community.

[Denzark]

Good for you. I'd even let my full name and professional titles (for what they're worth) sign a joint letter to that a la the Times letters page.

To answer your question, would I take the risk? I'm in the business of calculated risk; if I was a company though? I can't say I definitely would. Say I was sat in the CEO chair. Your letter arrives. My options:

1. Do nothing, I am happy with the bottom line. Even the thought my competitors might get there first don't worry me, we will pick up free overspill from the new gamers who want decent fluff and models (remember I think we are the best).

2. Take the risk - factoring cost. Remember you say it ain't easy, but would take effort and commitment. Both of these = time, and time = money.

Personally, I like having a punt. I especially like having a punt with other people's (shareholders) money. But am I even allowed to? or does a majority on the board have to have the say, or does the advertising contract mean those responsible have to do the Target audience analysis and meet a certain percentage?

Who knows what the mad world of business does.

Actually, without histrionics or hyperbole, when I finally have a bit of spare cash (bought a little mid-30s crisis car the other day) I would love to buy GW shares so I can attend AGMs. I would quite happily put any substantiated facts and figures to them saying 'why don't you consider doing 'x'?'

[eldargal]

Except most of that 'time' is being invested anyway. You have artist working on stuff, you just direct them to include more diversity in who they depict. You are photographing people playing in stores for advertising material anyway, you include some women even if you get some regulars girlfriends to pose. You're writing novels anyway, you direct the authors to include more than a token female etc. You have consumer relations people working for you anyway, you direct them to identify online female gamer hubs and send them some emails etc.

If GW were that risk averse they wouldn't have entered the US or Asian markets, companies fail at those attempts all the time. But the rewards were considered to be worth it. I'm talking about potentially doubling GWs customer base (half the population remember and not all boys are geeks) .

[Psychosplodge]

Which model of crisis car?

[Dave Mcturk]

ive been gaming for many decades... in many different genres and rules systems... never played a woman who knew the rules... though a few blokes.. . including experts and rules writers had 'tagalongs'... anything that makes the game/hobby more accessible and female friendly is a good thing...

i come from a sport where we play mens / womens and mixed events ... its an idea ?

[eldargal]

I think things like mixed tournaments and ladies nights are things that come further down the track when you have a base level of feminine interest and what to maintain it. Something for stores to think about perhaps.

Another thing to bear in mind is this is all about GW ACTIVELY seeking to engage with the female community. They don't have to do that. By doing the other things I mentioned they can still make the hobby more female friendly and rely on a slow, natural increase in interest as female gamers become more widespread. I think that lacks entrepreneurial spirit myself, but it's better than nothing. GW may be doing this as it is, we have seen a lot more femalecharacters in books recently, female lead books, the Everqueen being made to actually do stuff (and be extremely impressive), a plastic kit that makes ten males or ten females and I know at least one person in GW is aware of the potential female market and wants to encourage it.

[Psychosplodge]

Ever considered becoming one of their marketing monkeys? :D

[eldargal]

Nope.:P Well yes, and decided 'does not want'. Of course that is something else they could consider, find some dedicated female gamers and outsource it to them. It would still require a little effort in that you would want someone to liaise with them to make sure they are doing what they say they are doing but it would reduce the workload considerably. Have them approach gamer geek community hubs an act as a go-between. If they live in a suitably accesssible area and have the skills they could even run some of the hobby introduction workshops I mentioned.

[Denzark]

I wonder to what extent they actually interact with any of us - ask the US about the withdrawal from the tourney scene, the removal of gaming nights etc.

[eldargal]

They don't, this does entail a considerable change in direction but one that is aimed at targeting a specific, high potential, untapped demographic. I don't expect they will ever do it either, mind you, this is more of an intellectual exercise than anything else.

[Necron2.0]

Maybe we should have a sticky thread with a list of female gaming blogs to help encourage it? I mean how much easier would it be if you could say to someone that shows an interest, here go check out these links?

I like this idea, or at least for there to be a list of such blogs. Prior to it being mentioned here, I'd never heard that such things existed, and I'm not exactly a newbie to gaming. I do work too much, though, which means I don't have time to go seek such things out.


I still think enforcing mandatory minium levels of hygene wouldn't go a miss...

SECOND!!!!!!


The white middle class demographic in Britain is pretty much saturated.

Wow, really? That's definitely not true in the US. I work in what I would think is an uber-geeky profession (avionics software engineering), and I'm always having to explain what Warhammer is to coworkers (although some have heard of it). Outside of work, nobody I meet has ever heard of it. Even among my regular gaming buddies (guys I get with to play Settlers of Catan and the like), there is absolutely no interest in Warhammer. Basically, the dudes I meet up with to play Warhammer are a decidely niche subset of the people in my personal peer group. So I'd have to imagine there's a sizeable area for growth in the US.

++++

I'm all for getting more women into gaming in general (including 40k), and if targetted advertising and female figure sculpts help with that, great, but I cannot help but believe that gaming is suffering from the same issues that STEM professions are. There's been much discussion of getting women into the technical professions lately. The University I went to spent a bundle of money on recruiting female students into STEM fields, and largely their efforts were in vain. Looking at gaming, at my FLGS there are a few women who come in on a semi-regular basis. They play Magic, or they play Roleplay. They will not play anything else, no matter how much we beg. Same thing goes with my friend's daughter. We've been trying to get her interested in 40K since she was a preteen (this girl is a disciple of Khorne if ever there was one). Despite our efforts, nothing doing.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't try. On the contrary, just the opposite. I say pile on the coal, full steam ahead! However, I think we need to temper our expectations. It will be a long fight, with no easy victories and grinding struggle at every turn. I believe the real obstacle here is profound disinterest, not a lack of inclusion.

[magickbk]

I see two primary problems here, with a bunch of secondary ones. First off, GW simply doesn't advertise which may be fine in a place like the UK, but is a disaster here in the US. Secondly, GW doesn't reach out to communities in a manner that can be considered as having a plan.

As for the secondary problems, we're talking about a conflict between the social norms of everyday society and the social scene that you find in an average gaming store. When EG walks into a store and is asked if she is buying something for a boyfriend, that staffer can't see past their preconceptions (and is a jerk). A female gamer is also going to have to deal with a significant amount of extra attention (read as: harrassment) from a male demographic that is dreadfully out of touch with what is acceptable. When I was a GW staffer, I would actually, physically place myself between female customers and male customers that wouldn't leave them alone and engage the female customer in some sort of conversation to break it up. No one looks forward to going down to the shop for a game and having to deal with someone not leaving them alone all night. They want to be treated like everyone else.

So, the way I see it, there are two pieces to this:

1. GW needs to start advertising and reaching out to communities to get people involved in the hobby. School groups, blogs, whatever.
2. Diversify the artwork and story, as has already been said. I think good female characters already exist that aren't sexist, such as Iyanna Arienal. Just expand upon this across not only gender, but also race, etc.
3. This is the big one: our stores, clubs, groups, and forums need to stop seeing gender and race. EG isn't a 'female gamer' she is a 'gamer' that also happens to be female. When someone goes into a store they should be treated like everyone else, and if they happen to be a non-gamer looking for a gift, they get helped as such, but everyone should be considered to be on the same level when they walk through the door. This isn't to say that GW shouldn't get involved in bringing in the geek girl blogs or whatever, but that should be done because it is a community that GW isn't reaching out to now, not just because it is a 'geek girl blog'.

So, GW should try to do some of these things that have been mentioned, but I'm going to guess that it is something that is going to have to improve on a generational level to start hammering through some of these societal things.

[Gotthammer]

they play Magic, or they play Roleplay.

To expand on this, I feel to grab a larger market share GW should expand and diversify it's Black Library and Fantasy Flight lines. Following on from Necron's anecdote, I myself have a friend who played in a Rogue Trader RPG game and loved it (and the setting), who read BL books as background - but has no interest in the wargame or painting.
Somewhere it was mentioned about there being the GW triad of painting, gaming and collecting - what if they added RPGs and Lore (BL books etc) to make it five core elements? BL is forging ahead with its Heresy series (NY Times best sellers!) and the FF RPGs continue to expand, so the demand is there.

To reach more customers I think an effort should be made to diversify (this is more towards BL as the RPGs are hella inclusive), and that is one part marketing, and a slight change (or more an addition) to how they do things. This will go off on a bit of a tangent about literary theory type things, so be warned.
See, one thing with BL is that they have plenty of violence (duh), but what they really need is more sex. Now, I don't mean Fifty Shades of Space Marines, but I mean there is often no love or passion in the characters - and I mean that in any and all ways, not just romantically. Some time ago I was talking with a friend and he commented that the latest BL releases left him cold, and he thought that Watson's Space Marine and Inquisitor were still the best 40k novels. I replied it was because they were love stories, so they had passion driving their characters. Inquisitor is quite obvious (=I= does everything in the galaxy possible to resurrect his dead girlfriend), but he was a bit perplexed at Space Marine.
My explanation was that despite all the homoerotic undertones present, it wasn't a romantic love but it was the tale of three brothers, Lex, Yeri and Biff, and their relationship with each other. The stuff going on around them only mattered in how it shaped their dynamic - I mean the book only has around five real characters at all. I mean the ultimate scene is Lexandro realise how he's totally f'd everything up because he's lost the people he cared about and never told them how he felt! (uh, spoilers too, I guess).

So many of the current bolter-porn books lack this emotional element (but that's fine too! Hence expanding or addition), but keep in mind passion and love don't necessarily mean for people - Alaric in the Grey Knights series constantly struggles to do the right thing but often that conflicts with his devotion and reverence of his duty, or his faith is tested; Cain has his love of self going up against his care for the men and women under his charge; you could cut out the battles from Thousand Sons and it wouldn't change the book very much, save the ending and even that could be re-written and so on.

How would this help? Well more books written with emotionally driven plots would draw in readers who love the 40k setting but don't like bolter-porn, and would reach an audience (with proper marketing and targeted reviewing) who may have not considered 40k worth their time or written it off as "only war", when we crazy dedicated fans know there is far more to it than that.


And also Magickbk's #3 is a huge factor in all of this as well.

[Nabterayl]

So many of the current bolter-porn books lack this emotional element (but that's fine too! Hence expanding or addition), but keep in mind passion and love don't necessarily mean for people - Alaric in the Grey Knights series constantly struggles to do the right thing but often that conflicts with his devotion and reverence of his duty, or his faith is tested; Cain has his love of self going up against his care for the men and women under his charge; you could cut out the battles from Thousand Sons and it wouldn't change the book very much, save the ending and even that could be re-written and so on.

How would this help? Well more books written with emotionally driven plots would draw in readers who love the 40k setting but don't like bolter-porn, and would reach an audience (with proper marketing and targeted reviewing) who may have not considered 40k worth their time
I'm not a woman, but if the Black Library actually wrote some books that took the universe seriously (to be clear, I include Gotthammer's point about "love or passion in the characters" as a subset of ways in which the Black Library doesn't take the universe seriously), man, I'd be all over that.

[Gotthammer]

You'll notice I didn't say women, I just said expanding the market ;)


Also I say check out Dead Men Walking, one of BL's best IMO.

[Mr Mystery]

Overall, I'm not sure GW can do much to appeal to the girly gamer. Sure some more gender variety in the models wouldn't hurt....but...........

It ain't the game that's the issue, but the gamers.

For every gamer who isn't in the least bit fussed who is taking the kicking (or dishing it out) there's a good number of teenage boys (and indeed older) who will either simply fawn over the lass, or be awkwardly hostile.

For instance, my local store has a few girly gamers. And the guys can be really cringeworthy, to the point I feel awkward at their behaviour. Teenage boys? Fair dos. Can't be helped (as long as comments are appropriate and you know, behaviour is good). But we have a couple of older gamers who are frankly arsebrains to women....

[Denzark]

The next comment from EG will be just because some individuals are divs, it doesn't mean the corporation shouldn't try.

[YorkNecromancer]

For every gamer who isn't in the least bit fussed who is taking the kicking (or dishing it out) there's a good number of teenage boys (and indeed older) who will either simply fawn over the lass, or be awkwardly hostile.

For instance, my local store has a few girly gamers. And the guys can be really cringeworthy, to the point I feel awkward at their behaviour. Teenage boys? Fair dos. Can't be helped (as long as comments are appropriate and you know, behaviour is good). But we have a couple of older gamers who are frankly arsebrains to women....

That problem is solved by confronting their unpleasantness. Never underestimate the power of social censure. At the school roleplay club, we had a couple fo the usual types of idiots who used to come. One lunchtime, they started making sexist jokes at the girls. It was just embarrassing to watch them loudly and aggressively saying "Sisters of Battle? They're just nuns with guns! Nuns with guns! Nuns with guns!" - I kid you not, it was primary school childish, but the girls were still immediately intimidated, because there were fewer of them, and despite my best efforts, at that time, wargaming club was still predominantly seen as a "male space".

So I stood up, and loudly told them to shut up. I then explained that their behaviour was unacceptable, and that if they wished to continue, they would no longer be welcome at wargaming club. They shut up. After a while, they stopped coming. We did not mourn their loss.

Now, I'm the teacher, so stopping that stuff is in my job description. Plus I have the power to make their lives unpleasant. So, you know, it's no big thing for me to do that. But a few months later, they were all generating characters for a "Deathwatch" game. the girls asked if they could play as female Space Marines, and one lad started to explain that "No, there are no female Space Marines"... right up until the littlest year 8 lad there (that's twelve years old for my American cousins) stood up and confidently explained that that didn't matter, and that they shouldn't exclude the girls. Spontaneously (and while, yes female marines is one of my big things, I had nothing to do with this), everyone agreed that it would be perfectly fine if everyone played whatever they wanted.

That Deathwatch game ran for a year. It started with six players, four male, two female. It finished with ten, including four girls, all of whom played Marines. One of whom would never have come if her two friends hadn't dragged her - by the end, she was clamouring for the game to continue - her Apothecary had nearly reached the next level! By the end, both original girls were Thunderwolf cavalry... and the littlest lad was still the littlest, but also the most well respected.

TL;DR: be the change you want to see in the world.

If you stand up to poor behaviour, you create a safer space for others to do the same. Especially if you're an older gamer - your age brings that responsibility.

[Nabterayl]

Overall, I'm not sure GW can do much to appeal to the girly gamer. Sure some more gender variety in the models wouldn't hurt....but...........

It ain't the game that's the issue, but the gamers.

For every gamer who isn't in the least bit fussed who is taking the kicking (or dishing it out) there's a good number of teenage boys (and indeed older) who will either simply fawn over the lass, or be awkwardly hostile.

For instance, my local store has a few girly gamers. And the guys can be really cringeworthy, to the point I feel awkward at their behaviour. Teenage boys? Fair dos. Can't be helped (as long as comments are appropriate and you know, behaviour is good). But we have a couple of older gamers who are frankly arsebrains to women....
I think this is a fair point, but I don't think it's true to say that gamers' behavior is beyond GW's influence. Beyond its control, sure, but I would not agree that GW has no influence over the behavior of people who play its games. I think the best ideas that have been in this thread have gone to how the game is presented.

One of my friends was Hasbro's brand manager for a fair stint, and she had a concept she called the "core fantasy" that I think is useful in this context. The "core fantasy" is the identity you want a consumer to associate with the act of consuming your product.

What is the identity that GW peddles, intentionally or not, for those who engage in the Games Workshop Hobby(TM)? Is it that GW hobbyists are respectful, good sports, able to grapple with mature topics with levity and wit, and have a discerning eye? Are male GW hobbyists gentlemen, according to the way GW has branded its products? I don't think so. GW hobbyists are middle-class working stiffs for whom playing with plastic soldiers is the subcultural equivalent of a night at the pub, is I think closer to the core fantasy as GW currently brands itself.* And there's disgusting behavior to be had aplenty at the pub.

I don't mean to suggest that GW should brand itself as a gentleman's hobby, just to point out that the way it does brand itself says to the arsebrains-to-women you mention that the hobby is a safe, accepting environment for them to be that way. And GW's branding doesn't have to say that. Now, would different branding make those people change, or leave? Certainly not like a magic switch. But I do think different branding would (i) exert positive pressure on those people, and (ii) make non-hobbyists who are disgusted by those people feel like they were not representative of the hobby.

*Full disclosure, I am perhaps betraying my own disgust at the way GW brands itself. I love this universe, but it's something I prefer to consume and explore with my friends whom I trust. The thought of actually going to a GW store and engaging with "mainstream" GW hobbyists disgusts and repels me, in part because this hobby is presented as a product for people who are looking for a safe place to be rude and self-indulgent, a haven from maturity where nuance, wit, and courtesy are the acknowledged foes of fun and relaxation.

[Kirsten]

GW hobbyists are middle-class working stiffs for whom playing with plastic soldiers is the subcultural equivalent of a night at the pub, is I think closer to the core fantasy as GW currently brands itself.* And there's disgusting behavior to be had aplenty at the pub.

there is certainly truth to that, you can always find a fair share of guys who don't want women at their gaming stores/club nights because they 'come here to get away from girls/partners/wives.' It is the same with people in a pub or restaurant who want to swear, or generally act in a manner that might cause offence, they claim they are there to get away from home and be somewhere they can do that sort of thing. 'I came here to enjoy myself and I will swear if I want to' sort of attitude is a problem in these settings. As I have said here before, I don't like gaming with kids/teens running round the place, and prefer to game with friends. But I don't try to ban kids from the club, or make it a friends only venue, I just stay at home and play. Unfortunately that seems to fly over the heads of some people, I have heard a lot of sexist jokes in places like gaming clubs and video gaming with the claim that if women want to be involved they will just have to put up with sexism and crude comments 'that is the way it is, you are the one who wants to be here, you are the one who has to change'. heaven forbid we have a bit of common decency.
I think that is as off putting as anything else. given the fact that women don't automatically prefer to play sisters of battle, and enjoy the fluff, hobby activities etc. as much as any guy, I do think the players are largely the issue, not the game.

[YorkNecromancer]

Full disclosure, I am perhaps betraying my own disgust at the way GW brands itself. I love this universe, but it's something I prefer to consume and explore with my friends whom I trust. The thought of actually going to a GW store and engaging with "mainstream" GW hobbyists disgusts and repels me, in part because this hobby is presented as a product for people who are looking for a safe place to be rude and self-indulgent, a haven from maturity where nuance, wit, and courtesy are the acknowledged foes of fun and relaxation.

I genuinely thought I was the only person who thought/felt this.


'that is the way it is, you are the one who wants to be here, you are the one who has to change'.

I was reading Suzanne Moore's article about the whole Twitter rape threat horror yesterday, and she made a very valid point. 'An anti-female backlash occurs not when women have achieved equality but when there is any possibility that we might. It's "a pre-emptive strike"'.

That strikes me as very much what "You are the one who needs to change" is, because why should anyone put up with being degraded in public?

[Denzark]

I was about to say I would be gobsmacked if anyone had actually experienced that in a GW store. Then I thought people would pipe up and tell me of 1 million occasions where they actually saw it happen. Let me adapt the statement.

I would be surprised if anyone suffered that behaviour in a GW store, and could evidence it sufficiently in a complaint in accordance with GW HR policy for GW to accept the individual's (victims) version of events. GW are Child protection compliant in the UK, I don't think a manager would last if they allowed bullying/abuse of this kind.

I don't think it is mainstream GW at all. This is why they don't have sex in BL - GW treads a line away from 'issues'. They probably feel they are pretty gender neutral - if they even ever thought about it. THey don't advertise, so you can't accuse them of targeting one subsection of society.

I think this is confusing what GW call 'The Hobby' (which I take to mean collecting and gaming with citadel miniatures) and the hobby of wargaming in all its glory - something I differentiate between. And I could fully accept that the wargaming hobby has all the nobbery described above.

Another reason why I don't think GW would allow it is having been to their tournaments at their flagship Warhammer world. I have seen the odd women there, even played one last time and didn't observe any different behaviours towards them - the atmosphere at Throne of Skulls is 85% good chaps having the craic, with a few tournament hardcore types. Very few socially inept types, if a little strange in all.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think it is mainstream GW at all. This is why they don't have sex in BL - GW treads a line away from 'issues'. They probably feel they are pretty gender neutral - if they even ever thought about it. THey don't advertise, so you can't accuse them of targeting one subsection of society.

I think this is confusing what GW call 'The Hobby' (which I take to mean collecting and gaming with citadel miniatures) and the hobby of wargaming in all its glory - something I differentiate between. And I could fully accept that the wargaming hobby has all the nobbery described above.
So ... I don't mean this to be challenging, Denzark, but you clearly have a much better impression of GW's hobbyists than I do. Why do you think that is? The obvious response seems to me to be that you have more exposure to them than I do, but (if you agree with that) that just raises the next question - how did I come to have such a negative impression in the first place? Especially since they "don't advertise?"

Just trying to think through the branding issues.

[Kirsten]

I would be surprised if anyone suffered that behaviour in a GW store, and could evidence it sufficiently in a complaint in accordance with GW HR policy for GW to accept the individual's (victims) version of events. GW are Child protection compliant in the UK, I don't think a manager would last if they allowed bullying/abuse of this kind.

look at any thread on the main BoLS page about women in gaming and read the comments, you will see dozens of guys complaining about women gaming. as to why people are not reporting it/being banned etc. the problem is fundamentally a question as to what people view as bullying. all it takes is one comment to put someone off going back. a new player, male or female, goes to the local store. someone makes a comment they find offensive, how many of those new players are seriously going to go make a complaint to somebody? it is much like reporting bullying at school, kids worry about what might happen if they do report it. even minor incidents like someone next to you at the cinema whispering away, how many tell them to shut up, and how many people sit all passive aggressive? it doesn't have to be a comment in store that is serious enough for someone to be banned, it just has to be enough to put off that new player from returning.
what if a female gamer wants to get into 40k, they google it, find the BoLS front page, see an article about girls gaming and read the dozens of offensive comments? that might be a player put off even going to the local club in the first place.

you are right the vast majority of players are really nice, but you know what they say, there is always someone who has to spoil it for everyone else.

[Denzark]

I wouldn't claim more exposure - I never game in GW (well maybe 3 times in my life). I just have never seen the pits of behaviour in GW corporate property - and I think that would be because of not in spite of, company policy - I have seen some of the gamer classics (staring at women, treating them like a different creature, abuse etc) in multiple wargames clubs. Maybe people see them as home territory as Kirsten said, so they feel it acceptable under the banner of 'hobby time is me time'.

So I guess to be clearer its not the hobbyists, its how GW controls their behaviour on GW property. I wouldn't want to interact with the mainstream outside the tourney scene, and they are a whole different level of dedicated in my limited experience.

[Deadlift]

look at any thread on the main BoLS page about women in gaming and read the comments, you will see dozens of guys complaining about women gaming. as to why people are not reporting it/being banned etc.

Let's face it many of the lads involved in war gaming easily fit into a stereo type. We all know what I'm talking about. We've all seen them. Socially awkward and just a little bit different. Haven't got the foggiest on how to behave around women or girls in general. I think because of this they feel just a bit intimidated when a women invades their "comfort zone". I am sure the same people complaining about women are the same ones who don't have a ****ing clue about the fairer sex either.
To them they may as well be from another planet. A bit to close for comfort for some ? I know I'm right. I have been in my local store shooting the breeze with guys, wife shows up to drag me away and some of the guys clam right up. Some can't even look at her. It's borderline rude. But I get it.

Also lets face it our hobby carries a bit of an uncool stigma about it too. Your not going to impress many girlies with your 2000pts of blood angels really are you ? Again I think some blokes feel any women looking into our hobby is also looking on with disdain (not true) and this is more cause to keep the women out.

Me, I would love my mrs to play 40k with me, it's never going to happen but it would be fantastic if she would.

[Deadlift]

there are so few of us because we are like concentrated awesome and the men couldn't handle more of us ;)

Basically in a nut shell, as per my previous post. Most nerdy blokes are scared ****less of women.

[Kirsten]

yeah, one warhammer player I know recently had a female work experience colleague join him at work, he didn't say a word all week apparently, completely incapable of talking to her, and I mean that literally, didn't say a word to her for five days.
you wont impress many women, but then you wont impress many men either. I wonder what percentage of men are model hobbyists, would the percentage of female hobbyists still be a much lower figure if the game was seen as less of a boy's hobby?

[Deadlift]

I wonder what percentage of men are model hobbyists, would the percentage of female hobbyists still be a much lower figure if the game was seen as less of a boy's hobby?

Men it's gotta be low, sure I have my war gaming friends, but my friends outside of the hobby rib me remorselessly about my "toys". But let's face it its not just our kind of modelling, I think the modelling hobby in general (train sets, rc cars etc) is primarily a mans domain. Like knitting is a hobby mostly partaken by middle aged and older women. I'm not being sexist, that's just the way it is. Personally I don't think GW need to try and recruit women into the hobby, but I do think they could do a lot better in promoting their products to the masses as opposed to just it's niche market. By definition we should (a) see more women in be hobby and (b) the hobby maybe losing its nerd stigma.

[Kirsten]

exactly, let us say for the sake of argument that 10% of guys like miniatures, and 1% of women, the number of men probably wont grow especially, because it is already marketed toward men/male friends bring each other into the hobby etc etc. can the percentage of women increase to be the same as men if the game is considered less masculine and society opens up more to hobbies being equal for anyone that wants to play them? does GW et al appeal more to men, or is it just that more men are exposed to it? I have a number of female friends who thought it was silly until they actually realised what went in to it, and the hobby side of things appealed quite a lot to them.

[Deadlift]

Actually the few women I do know who are into the "hobby" seem to make really good painters. Could be practice painting their nails I guess ;) hit me if you like lol.
All except girl painting, not a fan of her painting style, although give her credit she's not bad.
Actually when it comes to YouTube there are a few hobby related channels by women that are outstanding.
Joey Berry is one that springs to mind.

[Kirsten]

I'm left handed so I can only successfully paint my right hand nails, the left usually involves getting it everywhere then cleaning it off carefully...

[YorkNecromancer]

sure I have my war gaming friends, but my friends outside of the hobby rib me remorselessly about my "toys".

I always expect that, but it's really strange. Everyone at work's just really positive and interested by it. Could be that teachers tend to embrace a love of childish things 'cause it makes us better at the job, of course. Even so, I've never had anything but polite curiosity. Which has been very nice.


I have a number of female friends who thought it was silly until they actually realised what went in to it, and the hobby side of things appealed quite a lot to them.

Having deliberately "marketed" Warhammer to both genders at school, I can tell you now: there is definitely, definitely a market. If GW could cut through the "boys' club" thing, they'd be on to money.

I will say that I haven't tried Warmachine yet, as we don't have the funding, but I am interested to see if that gets a different perception. Everyone liked Kommander Sorscha in particular and Cryx as a whole when I brought the main rulebook in to see if they'd be interesed in a different system. :) Come September, though...


Actually the few women I do know who are into the "hobby" seem to make really good painters.

It's probably more to do with "crafting" being more culturally acceptable for women - it's only one step removed from things like quilling, calligraphy, cake decorating etc... all of which are experiencing a flourishing renaissance amongst the women I know. (My girlfriend is addicted to craftgawker. To be fair, it's got some damned impressive stuff on there.)


Actually when it comes to YouTube there are a few hobby related channels by women that are outstanding.

Funny you should mention that. The other day, my GF was watching a Youtube tutorial on eye makeup while I was painting models, and while listening, it was really weird realising just how closely related the two skills are. You assume they're totally different, because they seem to be, but they're not. Obvious really. :) All the weird little mental boxes we put stuff into.

You'll note how assiduously I avoided a reference to METAL BAWKSES!!! there. That is because I am a classy and elegant poster.

[eldargal]

Lot of good points being made. Certainly combating the hostile attitude towards women amongst geeks is going to be a big hurdle towards female retention, which is why I thought it would be better to focus on targeting women who are already 'out' as geeks and have their own support systems in place. GW can do a lot to make their stores more female-friendly and the hobby appear more female-friendly but they can't do anything about clubs.

As YorkN indicates, there is nothing inherently masculine about 40k, what there is is a focus on marketing it towards boys. You only have to see how popular settings from Mass Effect to Game of Thrones are amongst women to see that just by something being violent and grim or scifi isn't going to make it boys-only.
This is something I think a lot of people have trouble with really. (white) Boys do not naturally gravitate towards hobbies like GW, those hobbies are marketed to them. You start marketing them in a gender neutral way and you start to get more than just (white)boys. Toys R Us in Sweden went completely gender (http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2012/11/29/highlights-from-the-gender-neutral-swedish-toys-r-us-catalogue/) neutral. Hasbro are slowly doing the same thing at least with some products traditionally aimed just at girls.

Make up brushes can make superb dry brushes btw, and the principles are very similar. You basecoat, you highlight, you shade. No OSL or NMM though...

[Wildeybeast]

I can't believe in 7 pages, no one picked up on this:



-Identify some of the larger female geek websites and geek websites with high profile female contributors. For example The Mary Sue, Geeky Girls Love scifi and some of the more popular geek girl blogs. Invite them to some demo games and painting tutorials, give them each a free copy of Dark Vengeance or Island of Blood or whatever and ask for their feedback on how to attract more women to the game. Then listen.

So basically, EG wants GW to give her free stuff. :p

[eldargal]

Lol, no, I don't thin kthem targeting BoLS with the sorts of things I'm talking about would help recruit more femals, as unusually female-laden BoLS might be.:p I'm talking about reaching female geek communities that are into scifi-fantasy and gaming and whatnot but have little exposure to GW yet.

[YorkNecromancer]

Make up brushes can make superb dry brushes btw, and the principles are very similar.

Hadn't even thought of that. I need a new drybrush too.

Right, looks like today calls for a visit to Boots...

[eldargal]

Make up brushes can be expensive, fair warning, but they tend to be built to last a bit more than hobby brushes in my experience. Ha, just remembered something. I once described painting to some (teenage, male) newbs at my games group like 'applying make-up to model' and the look of horror on their faces was beautiful.:rolleyes:

[magickbk]

Me, I would love my mrs to play 40k with me, it's never going to happen but it would be fantastic if she would.

This is the holy grail. My wife said if my daughters get involved (I can't actively recruit/force the hobby on them), then she will decide its worth the effort to learn.


Toys R Us in Sweden went completely gender (http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2012/11/29/highlights-from-the-gender-neutral-swedish-toys-r-us-catalogue/) neutral. Hasbro are slowly doing the same thing at least with some products traditionally aimed just at girls.

I frequently complain about the toy aisles in stores. I was just talking to a co-worker recently about the experience of shopping for toys for your children, which in a way is the mirror universe version of this conversation. When I go to the toy store to look for a gift for someone's son, I've gotten endearing looks from women which I call "shopping for a toy to play with your son? How cute." When I go to the toy store and I'm browsing the bright pink sections looking for toys for my daughter that aren't teaching her to grow up to be a '50s housewife, I've gotten looks that I call: "looking for bait, predator?"

[Psychosplodge]

Dunno why, painting make-up on the wench can be foreplay... but then you have to do it again before you actually go out...

[Wildeybeast]

Lol, no, I don't thin kthem targeting BoLS with the sorts of things I'm talking about would help recruit more femals, as unusually female-laden BoLS might be.:p I'm talking about reaching female geek communities that are into scifi-fantasy and gaming and whatnot but have little exposure to GW yet.

Their biggest recruiter has always been word of mouth and high street presence. Given they dont do anything particular to reach male gamers, I don't see why they would do anything extra for female gamers as you suggest they should. I agree that stores could be more welcoming to females (though my local one is welcoming to everyone in their defence). Part of that comes from staff attitudes, though I'm not sure how much they can do about their customers. Their attitudes link back to the whole 'fake geek girl' affair.

[eldargal]

That's a superficial way of looking at how GW market their product. Yes, they don't go out of their way to advertise but their product is very clearly aimed at boys and thanks to the ubiquity of GW stores in Britain basically very boy growing up will know about GW and they know it as a boys hobby. If GW can change that perception, there are hoards of little girls out there who aren't interested in the stereotypical girly stuff who might take up the hobby. As I've said, there is nothing inherently male about the hobby, the only barriers are related to the fact it has always been marketed as such and the demographic reflects that.

While stores being more welcoming is necessary, that still doesn't impact how the hobby is perceived by the population. If girls see it as one where they won't be welcome, there is little incentive for them to try and get into it however much they might like the look of it.

What this boils down to is the way that GW (and most other companies) market their product artificially restricts who will buy it based on archaic notions of gender.

[Wildeybeast]

In what way is it marketed to males then? If the hobby is appealing to females, what is the barrier which is putting them off? Other than the lack of female sculpts, it seems fairly gender neutral to me, though you obviously have a different perspective to me. I'm intrigued to know what examples of male oriented marketing they have.

[eldargal]

All men in the artwork, most of the box covers, all men in what promotional materials there are, often all-male staff, overwhelming number of male sculpts. When you walk into a store you are met with a barrage of male dominated images. If you go in with, say, your brother the message you get is 'this hobby is for him' not you.

[Wildeybeast]

I suppose that's all linked. There is no point putting women in artwork/books because there are no female models. There are no female staff because it has traditionally been a male dominated market, so why would women want to work there? There is plenty of sense in going for much more gender balanced 'imagery' and it doesn't really cost them anything. Plenty of guys will buy female models too.

Going beyond this, in terms of actively targeting female customers/staff, it becomes something of a self perpetuating cycle. Can they attract enough female hobbyists to make it financially viable to invest in doing so in the first place? They won't know until they take a punt, but are they willing to risk a venture into the unknown? Who knows. Most likely no one at the sort of level to make those decisions has even thought about it, given they are making a healthy profit on their current business model.

All this has got me thinking about what similar-male dominated nerd industries do to attract a female audience. Computer games have a staggering lack of any realistic, lead female characters. I'm going to chat to a couple of friends in that industry and see what (if anything) the computer games market is doing to attract female gamers/staff.

[eldargal]

Right, the thing to remember is that most of the changes they need to make won't cost them anything. They are already employing artists to make art, they don't start making MORE art, they start including female Guardsmen and commissars in art with Guard, for example. Or female eldar (just just Banshees) in art with eldar, that sort of thing. As for employment, obviously they are constrained by the applications they get.

Exactly, it requires a change in attitude at the top for it to happen and I'm under no illusion of that happening in the short term. I do think it will happen eventually because geek hobbies in general are moving that way.

It's worth noting that even with a startling lack of good female role models in video gaming and breath-taking institutional sexism (and some outright misogyny) 47% of video gamers are women. The issue there isn't getting women involved and taking their money but listening to women and not just churning out the same old white-male power fantasy crap for 95/100 games. Tabletop wargaming is different because it is a much more social hobby which means you are much reliant on your local community to provide a friendly place to play. If your local group is dominated by old ****s who just want a night with the boys away from the wife they aren't going to encourage those teenage girls to stay and play. **** those guys, seriously.><

Sorry, digressing. Basically I don't think the passive approach (more inclusive art, more female sculpts, more female characters in BL books) is going to cost GW much money as those things are already being produced it's just a matter of changing the composition. The active approaches I outlined would be more daring and cost them a little more but the potential to generate a lot of goodwill and publicity amongst female gamers would be huge. It's not like we are talking sinking millions of pounds into it, we're talking part of the salary of a PR person and some prize support/gifts. I think it is worth their while, obviously, and I'll tell them so. I don't expect they will take any notice and that is their prerogative.

[Wildeybeast]

From a cynical business point of view - if 47% of video gamers of female, why bother doing anything extra to include them? They are already giving you their money. I for one would welcome changes to artwork models etc., but I think if they are going for the community outreach programmes you suggest (which they won't, because they don't do that sort of thing), then it needs to be equally targeted. The last thing you want to do is piss off male gamers by giving free stuff to women and not them. That will guarantee that hobby stores aren't welcoming environments for them. They need to make active efforts to make sure women are included in such programmes, but they need to be inclusive.

[eldargal]

Because some company will come along and listen to them and take all their money, which sometimes happens. Bioware has a large and devoted female fanbase for example, because they listen and give women characters we can relate too. Those men who are buying get listened to,the gamers are made to cater to them. No on questions that. But for some reason people don't seem to think it is necessary to listen to the female customers.

Sure, it isn't like engaging with the female geek community precludes engaging with others, the difference is those male gamers are ALREADY spending their money. Are they going to abandon GW because The Mary Sue gets a free Dark Vengeance to give away to a lucky female gamer? I really doubt it. Fact is they already get the whole damned hobby tailor made to their preferences, so **** them. I expect there would be some nerd rage but what would be new about that?

[Nabterayl]

From a cynical business point of view - if 47% of video gamers of female, why bother doing anything extra to include them?
I don't think anybody is in the business of "video games." For instance, I believe the statistic for female first person shooter players is something like 17% of the total FPS playerbase.

That's where the business connection comes in - if 47% of videogamers in general are female, but less than 47% of videogamers who play your games are female, that disparity suggests that there are people out there who are buying other people's games that could be induced to buy your games as well/instead. Obviously the business case would have to be more nuanced than that, but the disparity at least suggests the existence of money left on the table.

[eldargal]

Exactly. The number of women playing RPGs is much higher than those playing FPSs. Is it because RPS appeal more to women and shooters don't? Perhaps, no doubt for some women. But there are also plenty of men who don't like FPS. Then there is the fact that shooters cater solely to males with fewer female characters, fewer female protagonists and a much higher degree of sexualisation. So 17% of women are playing FPS games in spite of the developers basically going out of the way to encourage them not to.

[Wildeybeast]

The biggest generator of nerd rage in GW players is that (rightly or wrongly) they don't feel GW listens to them or includes them and is going out of it's way to rip off them and ruin what they love. To then launch a campaign that is deliberately focused on making players who aren't them feel included is definitely going to to create division and since we have established that gaming circles need to be made more welcoming to women, such a campaign will do the exact opposite. But that it isn't really my point. My point is that true equality only comes when you treat everyone equally. Anything which singles out a particular group, even positively, fails to do that and only serves to highlight differences. Where one group is being treated unfairly, extra effort needs to be made to get them back to a level playing field, but not to the exclusion of others.

So, what GW should do is an 'outreach programme' which caters to all, but does a bit extra to include women. So it chucks a free box of stuff to the like of BoLS, Dakka, Whineseer (though throwing a hand grenade their way might be better for the health of the hobby), sites which are 'gender neutral' but clearly male dominated, whilst also doing so to specifically female-driven sites like The Mary Sue (I'm pretending I know what that is). Everyone on here is too distracted by shiny free stuff to notice, never mind complain, that a non-Warhammer, female focused site is also getting free stuff. It engenders a bit more customer loyalty in an existing market whilst opening up a whole new for them.

[eldargal]

Like I said, the outreach program doesn't have to target female gamers only, I'm just focusing on it as a tactic to help engage with them because that is the big untapped demographic. I am certainly not saying that ONLY female gamer sites should get attention.

I would point out though, that there is a group that gets singled out positively already, white boys.:p

[Wildeybeast]

Exactly. The biggest source of inequality in our world today. You fix it by balancing it out, not by swinging the pendulum the other way was all I was driving at.

[eldargal]

I don't think a bit of prize support to female game groups approaches swinging the pendulum the other way mind you, 90% of game characters are still white men, 99% of existing art still features solely white men (and aliens), etc. But as I said, no one is talking about this being aimed solely at women, I'm just talking about this tools in the context of targeting the female demographic.

[Wildeybeast]

Thats fair enough then. Good look with it, who knows GW may even take some notice.

[eldargal]

I doubt that, but no harm in trying.:) At the very least it might plant the idea in their heads.

[Wildeybeast]

As long as you are prepared for disappointment, you have nothing to lose

[eldargal]

I'm not expecting to be disappointed actually, it's mostly an intellectual exercise here on BoLS and if I contact GW about it I'll be doing so just to increase the chances they actually know about the issue. Disappointment would only come if I expected them to take action. At most I expect a polite letter in reply.:)

[Ze_Shoggoth]

Hey
So I thought a story may be related to this thread, back in 1995 I used to play in a GW which had a girl who used to come into play, she was nicknamed "ratgirl" for her Skaven army. She had also cool, rat headed Chaos and others... But really she was far more enthusiastic than anybody there, and only after some "guy" continuously hit on her month after month did she quit. She even told him to back off, but after he was employed there it kinda put her off. What I am trying to say is she inspired me to enjoy the hobby as much as I do, even if I never told her about it.

Regardless, I don't think more female models would help market it to more women even if they are less Striperesque. I feel that its quite a niche market and honestly I don't know what will help.

Maybe if people see more girls playing maybe?, though one thing Peterborough's manager would probably put more off than encourage. She certainly made me avoid GW stores for a long time.

[Necron2.0]

Make up brushes can be expensive, fair warning, but they tend to be built to last a bit more than hobby brushes in my experience. Ha, just remembered something. I once described painting to some (teenage, male) newbs at my games group like 'applying make-up to model' and the look of horror on their faces was beautiful.:rolleyes:

I can see that, actually. The animal known as the "teenage male" is a mass of raw nerves awash in a sea of previously unexperienced testosterone. The worst thing for a boy of that age is to be seen as being "weak" - targets them for predation by others of the pack. Having anything to do with "girlie-girl" stuff is for some the ultimate sign of weakness. This is why your typical teenage male is almost by definition a douchebag. :)

Now me, my parents did me the disservice of starting me in school a full year ahead of schedule, which meant I was always smaller than my peers. Since I was already weaker than my rivals, I had to be sneakier to have any chances with the ladies. This is the main reason why my "letter" in highschool came from being in Drama (yes, I was a Thespian). I went into acting, because that's where the girls were. What does this have to do with anything? Well ...


Dunno why, painting make-up on the wench can be foreplay... but then you have to do it again before you actually go out...

Personal experience: yes it can be. Helping a "fellow Thespian" with her make-up, combined with the nerves and jitters of a performance, can lead to a lot of backstage fun. ;)

[Build]

Model range:
GW can sculpt women now, they are also very good at not sexualising female sculpts. Revamping Sisters of Battle, some plastic female Imperial Guard, some more female Eldar and some more female sculpts like commissars, Inquisitors and so forth would be a big step forward.


Hmmm....debatable, still not sold on GW lady figs with one or two exceptions, not specifically the face, but the anatomy tends to be off quite badly (someone for a GD entry stripped all the armour off Lilith to convert her into a wood elf wardancer, while it looked good, it did reveal quite a few anatomical inaccuracies, especially around the hips and shoulders).

Speak of sisters of battle, I keep hearing people saying sisters will be back, but have yet seen little (if any) evidence, does anyone know of anything more concrete, rather than stuff passed on friend of a friend style?


I think a big one is the stores themselves, rather than a no shirt, no service option in GW stores I think it should be, if you come in smelling like you have yet to discover soap/shower gel, you need to go away and come back when you have.

Might sound a little nasty, but one store in Bristol (back in 2003) did ask one guy to leave because he hummed so bad there was no escaping from it and people visibly gagged whenever he walked in (not out of nastiness, but because he really DID SMELL THAT BAD).

The other one is to crack down on the creepers, my gym has banned one or two members in the past for upsetting/harassing women, I think the same should apply, ok so you might want to have a quick look, make it just that, a quick look. Following her around like a lost puppy is creepy and a sure fire way to make sure you put her off ever wanting to go back and probably spending the rest of your life singing in soprano.

[eldargal]

Well from a non-sexualised perspective they are pretty good.:) The new Sisters of Avelorn and Handmaiden models for example.

As for SoB, Jervis Johnson was asked about them at Enter the Citadel and said 'every army will be updated in time' and that none were being dropped. We also know Jes Goodwin was working on plastics in 2010/11.

[YorkNecromancer]

but the anatomy tends to be off quite badly

Because GW kits are normally a model of anatomical accuracy? Not sure I agree that they are! There's those GIANT Cadian heads, totally wonky Space Marine proportions, or the fact that no human being has ever had anything like the musculature of a Catachan Jungle Fighter (and I'm not talking size. I'm talking weirdness of shape.)

http://www.cardplace.ru/images/articles/Elvis/Catachans/3-4.jpg

Seriously, WHAT is up with this guy's right shoulder muscles? His arm reaches to just below his knees, his hands are nearly as big as his head... And he's actually pretty good by Catachan standards!

Although while searching for images of wonky Catachans, I did find this official bit of Fantasy Flight Games' artwork for their 40K RPG "Only War":

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130619054860/warhammer40k/images/1/12/Catachan_Scout_female.jpg

and this

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130604170938/warhammer40k/images/5/55/Cadian_Cmdr_female.jpg

and this

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130210224409/warhammer40k/images/thumb/8/8f/Mordian_Iron_Guard_female_trooper_2.jpg/250px-Mordian_Iron_Guard_female_trooper_2.jpg

Why is it FFG gets it so right and GW doesn't pay any attention? Why can't they make these as models?


Speak of sisters of battle, I keep hearing people saying sisters will be back, but have yet seen little (if any) evidence, does anyone know of anything more concrete, rather than stuff passed on friend of a friend style?

I recall the Games Day thread here had an interview with him where he'd said the issue was getting the robes right; they want the kits to be dynamic as well as offer multiple poses, but that's not an easy thing given the flowing robes. He did confirm that they will be released though.

[Build]

Because GW kits are normally a model of anatomical accuracy? Not sure I agree that they are! There's those GIANT Cadian heads, totally wonky Space Marine proportions, or the fact that no human being has ever had anything like the musculature of a Catachan Jungle Fighter (and I'm not talking size. I'm talking weirdness of shape.

I think the thing which annoys me is there is some AMAZING artwork, there really is! But it's not always done justice, but by that same vein I should be grateful, because I wouldn't be sculpting if they did minis that reflected it.

That Catachan looks pretty badass, she'd be fun to sculpt if I didn't have 20 odd Dragon blood minis to knock out.


Back on topic....

Surprised no-one commented on the smell factor (unless my eyes are failing me and it's already been mentioned, in which case I shall cease and desist).

[eldargal]

I bought Only War just for the art.:) I agree the models don't always do the concept art justice but I think on the whole GW are improving, even if some people don't like the concept (like the new CSM daemon machines). The new Sisters of Avelorn are some of my favourite female sculpts on the market even if I think GW overdo the bone structure on female elves.

I don't really frequent GW stores and whatnot to judge about stench really. My own group has stamped out that sort of thing largely by having a bunch of older, mature males who can have a quiet word word with any of he younger boys and nip it in the bud. Older men that come as guests are expected to be told to wash, if needed, by whomever is inviting them.

[Daemonette666]

And YES please someone release female guard....


I do not know whether I have mentioned this before to you or others, but Zealot miniatures make a nice female torso sprue for their Khadeshi (Tau wannbees). It comes with 3 armoured and 3 unarmoured torsos. They look like they would make a nice variants for Flak/Carapace armour, and for Catachan Guards. They are a little pricey though at £3.99 for 6 torsos.

Here is the Link:

http://www.zealotminiatures.co.uk/#!__zealot-store/kadesh-female-bodies.

Maybe a few female cultist miniatures can be added to the cultist line? They would probably look like Reavers/Rippers as you see in the Serenity Postqual movie.

[DrLove42]

Strong female characters show up everywhere except the models

Read Betrayer. Ships Captain of the World Eaters Flagship is an awesome woman. She punches and shoot a World Eater captain in full power armour in the face cos shes annoyed at him :P

[Psychosplodge]

Dunno why, painting make-up on the wench can be foreplay... but then you have to do it again before you actually go out...
Personal experience: yes it can be. Helping a "fellow Thespian" with her make-up, combined with the nerves and jitters of a performance, can lead to a lot of backstage fun. ;)

^see

@York, that Mordian needs to get those bloody trousers ironed, look at the state of them...

[eldargal]

Strong female characters show up everywhere except the models

Read Betrayer. Ships Captain of the World Eaters Flagship is an awesome woman. She punches and shoot a World Eater captain in full power armour in the face cos shes annoyed at him :P
Exactly and it is one of the reasons when I get cranky when people respond with 'oh they aren't needed' or '40k isn't like that'. The characters are there, the female Guard regiments are there, it's all in the background it is just missing from the model range.

I hope she survived the book, too often in scifi you get a strong female character like that who gets bumped off to show how strong someone else is.

[daboarder]

Nah Lotara is still kicking,

I don't expect her to get a good ending though, I mean she IS in the service of the servants of Khorne after all.

[eldargal]

Future daemon princess ftw.;)

[daboarder]

My favourite part about her.

When the world eaters are off on a rampage with no chain of command, instead of trying to establish one. She just goes **** it, and tears off after her own prey

[Mr Mystery]

Has anyone written to GW requesting female models?

[eldargal]

Not yet, I'm going to though. I'd encourage others too as well.

[daboarder]

Future daemon princess ftw.;)

I think its more likely (given the setting) that she's going to get stuck with a "fate worse than death" style ending, bonded forever in the command throne of the conqueror.

[Wildeybeast]

Probably. Corax found a female loyalist who had suffered that fate in soulforge on a word bearers ship. Through sheer strength of will and devotion to the emperor she had managed to keep enough sanity left to be able to help him out. Another strong female character, though in a different way.

[Phototoxin]

I think that it depends - some markets are more skewed to one sex over the other. Those companies don't feel the need to recruit 'outside their demographics'

Also there seems to be a bit of anti-dude sentiment in places on this thread which is sad =(

Finally in my experience more female hobbyists tend to be really good at painting and that 'side' of the hobby. I don't live at my local GW so don't know how women are treated there. At our club we occasionally have female players, no one gives them hassle and they're not treated any differently.

[eldargal]

Markets are skewed because they skew themselves. If you market at boys and ignore girls, as GW has done (they are far from alone in this), you get a demographic of mostly boys. If you want to grow your demographic, you need to break out of that. That's what this thread is about.

No, there isn't. What there is is a call of GW to recognise that they have an opportunity to get women to spend money in their stores and not just for male relatives/friends.

Because girls are told that art and whatnot is acceptable to do but wargames are not. It's good that your club doesn't treat them differently.:)

[Wolfshade]

In order to re-balance you have to descriminate against the male gamer (though EG does not believe that this is an accurate use of the word). So to raise the prescene of female gamers you need to show them a disproportionate amount in publicity. I was just thinking this when looking at the Warhammer Worlds pictures from the recent school league photos there are just pictures of boys and only boys, they need to ensure that any girl gamers are photgraphed playing the game as equals and not some cliche role and then this helps breakdown the cliche that only guys game.

[Wildeybeast]

Would putting up pictures of girls not attract more boys to playing?

[eldargal]

That's not true actually. At the moment GW aims everything at men, reducing that isn't discrimination in any sense of the word (unlike potential positive discrimination). It wouldn't be about having a disproportionate amount of advertising aimed at women, it would be about having SOME advertising aimed at women.

It's more complex with GW as they don't advertise in the traditional sense but if we imagine they did for a moment the current ratio would be:
Ads aimed at Men: 100%
Ads aimed at Women: 0%

Changing that to 75/25% is not discrimination.

[Kirsten]

I hope she survived the book, too often in scifi you get a strong female character like that who gets bumped off to show how strong someone else is.

she is a fantastic character, and provides a fantastic non-psychotic view of the world eaters, being amongst them every day watching their decline. I would love to know what happens next and whether she remains with them. Sanguinius' flagship also has a female admiral in charge. does seem like a move by authors to have powerful characters be female. obviously in the heresy books the main characters are marines who cannot be female, and so they are making the most powerful human characters female, which is awesome.

[Wolfshade]

Changing that to 75/25% is not discrimination.

It all depends how it is referenced. If GW players are 100% male (to nearest percent, i.e, less than 1 in 100 GW players are female) then you can clearly see that it is advertising to reflect its current market.

If it were to increase the female ratio to 25% the it makes the assumption that 1 in 4 GW gamers are female, if they are not then they are treating this group based on their sex differently to the rest.
The very deffinition of discrimination : "Discrimination is the prejudicial and/or distinguishing treatment of an individual based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or category".

Hence to increase female GW gamers they need to make the hobby seem more female friendly, or that it is to make it seem more female normal, so to do so they need to over represent them in the hobby and hence treat them differently when it comes to advertisement, or postive descrimination.
(Note discrimination is not always prejudicial)

Now the long term prospect of this may be to re-address a sexual imbalance and once equilibrium has been achieved then representation of gamers is in equal measure.

Perhaps a spin of debate is who does GW believe it's core market to be. Based on its advertisement it is clearly young boys, so is GW inherently sexist/ageist or is this the largest market? Is GW prepared to be spend money outside of the box to increase it's market share beyond it's core audience?

[eldargal]

Sorry but wile the definition of discrimination is valid the way you are applying it is absurd. Half the population is female, if 97% of the GW customer base is male it is because of discriminatory advertising, if GW start advertising more to women that is not discrimination in any shape or form, it is ending discrimination.

I've used this analogy before but it is apt: If a male-only club with limited membership decided half of all new members will be women, just because it means less focus on men doesn't amount to discrimination because it is, in fact, ending discrimination. The absence of discrimination cannot be discrimination. This is a completely different issue from something like gender quotas which could be seen as positive discrimination. There is no such issue here.

[Wolfshade]

Yes half the population is, but is half of the wargaming community? No, I am not saying that this is a good thing please note. Companies' sell to their market, not their potential market. I am not sure you can claim that only 3% of GW market being female is because of GW policies, if that is the case then socialisation has no sway but advertisement does and a quick month campaign will create a huge influx of female gamers to be 50:50 ratio. A ludicrous statement indeed.

Your analogy is one which replaces one form of descrimination for another, this is not the abscence of discrimination. You are limiting the female memebrs to 50% and you are limiting the males to 50%, now true they are both treated equaly but the individuals are all being descriminated based on there gender.

[eldargal]

And by advertising only to men they are limiting their market. This isn't the 80s were female geeks were like Unobtanium, by ignoring the female market they are limiting their sales. If they remedy that it won't be discriminatory, quite the opposite. That's all I'm saying.

I don't know why you have such trouble with this concept. Women are discriminated against, that ends, no gender is being discriminated against. That's how that situation works.

[Wolfshade]

I have no problem with understanding the concept that they are ignoring their female market, indeed I have even suggested ways that they can help break down the stereotype, and I think that that would be good for the hobby as a whole, not just GW sales.

I understand that women are descriminated against, and that when that ends there will be no gender discrimination, I also understand as previousl quoting the UN on this that in order to combat it they need to enforce positive descrimination. What I am saying, which is very important is that people being equally descriminated against is not an end to descrimination. Take your exclusive male club, they then pass the resolution to allow equal numbers of men and women into the club. They have an opening for 10 slots, now under the rules of the club this means five men five women, all sounding nice and equal so far, but let us imagine that a lot of the spouses of existing members apply so much so that of the 100 applicants 90 are female and 10 are male.
Now because of their descrimination policy the men have a sucess rate of 1 in 2 of getting in, the females only 1 in 18 so in this scenario because of the equal discrimination policy women are 9 times more likey to be desciminated against.

That doesn't really seem equal to me...

So then you say ok, the ratio of applicants is 9:1 so we descriminate based on that ration, so on both sexes have the same sucess rate, 1 in 10, but then we have the problem that you have just allowed 9x the females then the men so that can't be equal either.

The solution to discrimination isn't more discrimination, I don't know what it is, education, retraining a PR campaign I really don't know. I understand the requirement for affirmative action which in the short term would be descriminatory against the majority (and by sheer definition the minority) but so be it. But as soon as you start judging people on what they are or what they appear to be then you are going to fall into this trap.

I think if we did a straw pole of the sexes on this website we would see that the majority of players are not the GW targetted 12-16 year old males.

There are things that GW can do to make itself seem more universal, and that is include picutres of women and non-whites playing the game, also showing older people playing it. It is an unfortunate truth that if it does representative photographs from their tournaments and shops and what-have-you it will show predominately young white males so that cannot be the way forward as that just reinforces the stereotype that we are trying to deconstruct. So you need to empahsis the minority players, do some form of out reach.

Let us also not be fooled into think that this problem is unique to GW/wargamming, in advertising each product has its niche market, whether real or imagined and they are the target of the adverts. Consider for instance how much more often you see females in domestic adverts compared with males, is that because men do no housework? No. But the advertisement and marketing says that is where you target to maximise your profits.

A big question is how to GW advertise and I would say that the majority of "advertisements" are aimed at the GW player for the most part, relying on GW players to recruit friends and family. Certainly they do not appear in the mainstream.

[eldargal]

I have no problem with the concept that they are ignoring their female market, indeed I have even suggested ways that they can help break down the stereotype, and I think that that would be good for the hobby as a whole, not just GW sales.
I know you don't, you just seem to get a bit hung up on the positive discrimination thing which isn't necessarily required. there are certainly ways GW could use it as a tool to breaking into the female demographic and I addressed them in the OP, not necessarily saying they should go down that path though.


I understand that women are descriminated against, and that when that ends there will be no gender discrimination, I also understand as previousl quoting the UN on this that in order to combat it they need to enforce positive descrimination. What I am saying, which is very important is that people being equally descriminated against is not an end to descrimination. Take your exclusive male club, they then pass the resolution to allow equal numbers of men and women into the club. They have an opening for 10 slots, now under the rules of the club this means five men five women, all sounding nice and equal so far, but let us imagine that a lot of the spouses of existing members apply so much so that of the 100 applicants 90 are female and 10 are male.
Now because of their descrimination policy the men have a sucess rate of 1 in 2 of getting in, the females only 1 in 18 so in this scenario because of the equal discrimination policy women are 9 times more likey to be desciminated against.
Certainly it isn't perfect byt the only alternative to ensure instant equality (as opposed to ending membership discrimination and letting the demographics sort themselves out over time) is to introduce positive discrimination, which I am not necessarily in favour of.

The solution to discrimination isn't more discrimination, I don't know what it is, education, retraining a PR campaign I really don't know. I understand the requirement for affirmative action which in the short term would be descriminatory against the majority (and by sheer definition the minority) but so be it. But as soon as you start judging people on what they are or what they appear to be then you are going to fall into this trap.
Right, but ending discrimination in advertising (or membersgip criteria for a club) isn't discrimination even if it doesn't deliver equality instantly.

There are things that GW can do to make itself seem more universal, and that is include picutres of women and non-whites playing the game, also showing older people playing it. It is an unfortunate truth that if it does representative photographs from their tournaments and shops and what-have-you it will show predominately young white males so that cannot be the way forward as that just reinforces the stereotype that we are trying to deconstruct. So you need to emphasis the minority players, do some form of out reach.
Agreed but emphasisiing half the population that are underrepresented in the hobby in it's advertising material isn't in itself discrimination.

Let us also not be fooled into think that this problem is unique to GW/wargamming, in advertising each product has its niche market, whether real or imagined and they are the target of the adverts. Consider for instance how much more often you see females in domestic adverts compared with males, is that because men do no housework? No. But the advertisement and marketing says that is where you target to maximise your profits.
Absolutely, in fact I've said several times that GW is way ahead of much if its competition and the other geek industries in that it has a solid grounding of equality in its background material. It just needs to emphasise that more in a way which would help female geeks get interested in it. The problem with gendered advertising is that it doesn't reflect the reality of society, it is basically an advertising comfort zone. There are exceptions of course, little point marketing make-up to men in the current culture. But for some things, like GW products and video games, it actually limits the demographic and ultimately hurts sales.


A big question is how to GW advertise and I would say that the majority of "advertisements" are aimed at the GW player for the most part, relying on GW players to recruit friends and family. Certainly they do not appear in the mainstream.
Yup, and my emphasising that this is something mothers and sisters can do with sons and fathers, or brothers and sisters or whatever would help, not just focusing on boys/men. It won't cost much, if anything, as it is mostly a change in language and focus, not doing more of anything.

[Wolfshade]

It seems to me from talking with people that I know within GW that GW seems to be doneing things to maximise their existing markets. A lot of their assumptions and moves recently have been to increase profits (arguably short term) at the expense of a long term strategy. If this is borne out, and I really hope it isn't, they have a significant problem of short-termism which means continuing the same strategy and being reactive rather than proactive.

There must be some market research that shows what their main demographic is, therefore they know that by spending £1 on marketing to this core they generate a certain revenue. So from the short term POV you then know that spending on other areas have deminishing returns after all if you spend £10 on "non-core" market then you could have got more money by spending it on core market.

I just hope that I am wrong with those assumptions.

[eldargal]

But what GW are doing doesn't have much relation to what they could do to expand their demographic.:) As I said it wouldn't cost them more necessarily, it's a matter of changing what they are doing not doing more. More females in the artwork, for example. The artwork is being made regardless, only the composition changes.

[Wolfshade]

I know that, but the "argument" is that if you spend say £500 commissioning a picture about a male assassin, or the same amount for a female one. The narrow view says that the male will generate X sales while the female will generate Y (where X>Y) so it is not as cost effective.

Kinda sucks and I have no idea how rigorous it is, but I suppose it is against this sort of small mindedness that we are trying to crusade.

[eldargal]

Well they do have callidus assassins already, with art.:p Plus I'm not sure that is true, geeks don't seem to mind looking at women in their artworks. But I was thinking more of the showcase artworks, boxed set covers, the big battle pieces that get shown off on posters and in books to illustrate GrimDark. Throw in some female Guard, Commissars and Inquisitors have some SoB present not just Space Marines etc.

[magickbk]

Coming in a bit late here, but thought I would add a point or two. I see the problem as paradoxical. I've tried unsuccessfully to get female friends, significant others, etc. to try the game. I've only attempted this on ones who thought the models were cool, or who played other games. The biggest resistance points I've gotten have been 'I don't want to be the only girl there', and 'it seems too complicated/time consuming'. These particular women had never seen marketing materials, or any GW publications beyond the cover of a book on a table. Some of them agreed to learning if a few other women were present to learn with them, and my wife additionally said she would learn it if our daughters one day were into the hobby. I've known a few women/girls who were involved in the hobby throughout my years, and they have almost always been the only one at the time in that store. The question is, how does one combat that? Does a 'ladies night' at the FLGS where women can come in and learn games, maybe without their already involved menfolk, help to dispel some of those reservations? Is a ladies night inherently sexist to begin with? Wouldn't a woman who is an established and accomplished hobbyist need to run such an event to make it the proper environment?

I suppose part of my thinking is that printing pictures in White Dwarf of women enjoying a game night aren't going to help if that isn't an accurate representation of what the local store is, because I can show that picture to my wife all I want, but when we walk into the store and she is the only woman, she is going to start to feel uncomfortable when morons start gawking at her.

Having said all that, when I worked at GW, I did recruit girls/women into the hobby with probably the same success rate as men, it's just that far fewer of them showed up and were willing. The LotR game helped immensely with that for some reason, and women who played LotR seemed as likely to transition to another game as men who joined via LotR. The ones that did take it up were ones who didn't seem to care for one reason or another that they were the only females in the store at any given time, usually encouraged other girls/women to join the hobby, but ultimately didn't really help to solve the situation by recruiting friends, sisters, mothers, daughters, etc.

[eldargal]

You're quite right, which is why I think it would be a good idea for GW to target existing female geek websites/blogs etc to try and get an influx coming in at once. That would help accelerate things, but at least breaking down the image barrier of it being a 'boys only' hobby would be good. Encourage boys to play with their sisters for example, not just friends.

A ladies night would be a good idea potentially, but you would need to be sure of enough interest to sustain it. Might have to persist with it, I could see the first couple being relatively sparse as a lot of potential women might not want to go and risk being the only one there.

It's a complicated issue and nothing will change overnight I just think for very little cost GW could have a shot at breaking into the female geek demographic more easily than a lot of companies.

[magickbk]

A few posts back you mentioned the father/son, mother/daughter thing. It would be interesting to hear from anyone on the boards who has daughters that are/have been the target age to start from GW's standpoint (say, 12ish) who has tried to get them involved, and what the end result is, and contrast that with the same information from board members who've had sons of the target age.

[Wolfshade]

It is one of these critical mass things.
My experaince from another hobby that has issues as being seen for one demographic (elderly males) only is that there are locations which defy this (i.e. have a lot of youth involvement) and when questioned as to why, they are really unknowing about it why this is, it is one of those things that has always been. To try and change this issue, on a large geographic area they have arrranged for all (or all who want) who are in this youth bracket to come meet up and practice together so that they are aware that they are not alone.

Now to translate this into GW parlance it is as has been alluded to a ladies night. So, organise one night a week where the tables are restricted to women, as are the painting tables with the only males allowed if they are accompanying a female. I am sure that there are gaming clubs out there who look at this problem and have no understanding of where we are coming from with this gender bias, they are the ones without the issue, and it is from such locations that support in running the girl gamers night is required. To provide that mass of girl gamers who know the game.

As for the female callidus, after typing it I thoguht it was a bad example, after all teenage male hormones and bodyfitting outfit...

[Phototoxin]

Now to translate this into GW parlance it is as has been alluded to a ladies night. So, organise one night a week where the tables are restricted to women, as are the painting tables with the only males allowed if they are accompanying a female. I

Isn't that in and of itself sexist?

[eldargal]

Isn't that in and of itself sexist?
Nope.

[Wolfshade]

Isn't that in and of itself sexist?


Nope.

Yes and no. Though in this specific context I do not think that it is harmful.

But in the same token don't forget GW used to have veteran nights where you had to be over a certain age to attend.
It is in a similiar vein to how swimming pools often have different sessions for different age/gender not to descriminate (which is what they technically are doing) but to try an make it that group friendly.

The fact is that to increase participation amongst a minority group that you wish to expand, you have to foster a sense of community within that group and it is hard for that to happen if they are being treated as a minority and account for 2 of 30 in a game night. Now if they were much higher representation they are able to build those relationships and while they may be a minority, it is not obvious and in their face.

I have seen this trialled in another hobby of mine and it has increased both participation and retention of the targeted group, which is of benefit to the hobby as a whole not just to the group made to feel warm and cosy.

[eldargal]

When every other night is boys night allotting one night for ladies night isn't sexist. The fact a special time has to be set aside to encourage women to come in so that there will be safety in numbers isn't so much sexism as an acknowledgement of considerable imbalance. Also worth considering that men still have free access the rest of the time, no one is being barred completely from anything.

[Wolfshade]

Exactly, hence it isn't a problem, given that in fact every other time is a male night in all but name. And has been said many times in order to compensate for an historic bias you sometimes need to enact policies/process that are not equal.