Torrent Weapons

[Asuryan]

Was watching my friends play and one of them flew his Helldrake and had the base on the top floor of some ruins, he then proceeded to burn the guys on the bottom level of the ruin most of which where directly underneath the base of the helldrake and the flamer template started underneath the helldrake base. As far as i can tell he didn't do anything wrong but it just seems really cheesy. Anyone with a Faq or rule quote to say he did something wrong?

[Magpie]

The weapon is 360 Degrees tho so it can fire in any direction however I'd think that maybe the 45 degrees up and down rule might apply? or is the Baleflamer in a ball mount so it can rotate through a hemisphere under the 'drake ?

[Houghten]

Line of sight?

[Wildcard]

Yeah, line of sight is the one thing that could have stopped that.

However, i do not know how to work with the torrent rule, especially when firing around corners for example..

[SacredChao]

The Heldrake cannot burn targets not in line of sight, since flamers still follow that rule (unlike blasts), though it IS hard to be entirely out of line of sight from it, being big and up in the air. About flamers and levels: you can move flamers up and down 2 levels from the current level (even non-torrent ones). It seems to me a bit weird, though he could have probably avoided the ambiguity by maneuvering a little better. But it doesn't seem necessarily illegal to me, unless you were completely out of line of sight.

[Killme304]

Flyers, Jump units, FMCs, and Skimmers can shoot at any level on the building, its in the template section in the ruins rules.

[Magpie]

You can shoot up or down 1 level with flamer?

I can't find any mention of flyers in the template v ruins section?

[Asuryan]

Line of sight?

the start of the flamer may have been out of sight because it was underneath the base, but the unit as a whole was able to be seen by the drake.

[Patrick Boyle]

I'm pretty sure you can't point the template back at yourself? So if he was pointing the template under the heldrake then that wasn't valid, if that's the case.

[Wildcard]

Oh yeah, the torrent rule had that one aswell: Narrow end must be closer to you than the wide end, right?

[Tynskel]

As long as you follow the rules, there shouldn't be a problem...
you know... the rules...

[Magpie]

I'm pretty sure you can't point the template back at yourself? So if he was pointing the template under the heldrake then that wasn't valid, if that's the case.


Oh yeah, the torrent rule had that one aswell: Narrow end must be closer to you than the wide end, right?

The narrow end has to be closer to the muzzle of the weapon than the big end. So on a 360 mount weapon the little end at your head and the big end under your bum is fine. You also, with vehicles, ignore the template being over yourself.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, the reality is this:
1) must have LoS from the weapon. Doesn't matter that it is 360, you still need the 'beak' of the Dragon to have LoS.
2) the Template small end must be close to the Helldrake than the far end.
3) The weapon must be within range.

Easy-Peasy.

[daboarder]

not really, you can place the template and generate wounds regardless of if you have LOS, however those wounds can only be allocated to models that you have los too, you can generate 6 wounds on a unit, but if you can only see one model that one model eats all 6 wounds and probably dies.

[Daemonette666]

The template must be placed so that the smaller end is no closer to the Helldrakes base than the larger end. This means you could have it sideways so both ends are the same distance from the base.

The template can be placed so that the target unit is hit, and you can even have it so other units are hit, however you must place it so that as many of the visible models in the target are covered. As to models not visible to the Helldrake being affected, I am not sure, but I think they FAQ'd this and blast templates (especially if they scatter) and template weapons such as torrent templates can damage even those not visible but covered by it. I know you can not place it so your own friendly models are covered.

The 45 degree thing might have an impact on placing the template, though Line of sight should limit where you can place the template, especially if you try to place the small end (the start of the torrent blast) in a spot you can not see. I would guess that you should place the small end of the template so it is visible to the firer. From there the template should be positioned to cover the most models visible to the firer, but all covered should be auto hit.

I would also make sure that the Torrent template does not go under (cover) the helldrake's base, even if the target unit is a couple levels below the flying model.

[Magpie]

The rule for templates only says that you must cover the maximum number of models in the target unit, no mention is made of whether they are visible or not.

Blasts can wound out of site but not Templates. That comes under the Blast Special Rule.

The base of a flyer is ignored for all but a few cases so the template being over it won't be an issue I think.

[Nabterayl]

I think the 45 degree thing is really a minimum, not a maximum - i.e., a gun can point wherever it looks like it ought to be able to point, even if the physical model is not that flexible (e.g., because the gun is glued in place, the model looks like it has joints that were not sculpted as practical joints, etc.), but a gun can swivel up to 45 degrees in any direction regardless of how it is modeled.

Page 72 says:


On some moclels, it wll actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place. In this case players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45 degrees, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that. Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45 degrees.

So it seems to me that there are three steps laid out there: first, see what the model can physically do; second, see what the model would be able to do if it was a real vehicle; third, make sure that is at least 45 degrees of freedom in any direction, even if the model wouldn't be able to do that in real life.

In the case of a heldrake, given images like this, I'd say that a heldrake can shoot straight down even if the kit GW has given us cannot physically do that. 4455

[Magpie]

I don't agree with that at all. Page 72 says to me that the range of movement horizontally is as the model is supposed to move and it can move up or down 45 degrees, much the same as the arc of fire for a fixed weapon.

That to me would say that although the helldrake has a 360 mount it can't shoot anything any closer to it's base than it's height off the table, ie a 45 degree angle down from the horizontal plane through the "mouth mount".

[Nabterayl]

Are you saying that a gun that can physically point straight down or straight up is barred from doing so? Or only that you disagree that a heldrake's gun can point straight down or straight up?

[Dave Mcturk]

Are you saying that a gun that can physically point straight down or straight up is barred from doing so? Or only that you disagree that a heldrake's gun can point straight down or straight up?

pmsl...

[i think it was meant to be funny !]

as the standard template is used for torrent shots surely it doesnt matter if it is firing through a different plane .... ie at an angle from high to low . figures 'under' the template would still be hit in a 'fairish' representation of 'flame' coming from above...

[Asuryan]

I'm pretty sure you can't point the template back at yourself? So if he was pointing the template under the heldrake then that wasn't valid, if that's the case.

narrow end was underneath the base and the round end was further away than the narrow end and not under the base

[Magpie]

Are you saying that a gun that can physically point straight down or straight up is barred from doing so? Or only that you disagree that a heldrake's gun can point straight down or straight up?

No I'm not saying they are barred from doing so if that is how they are modelled but the rule does seem to say that all weapons can go up and down at least 45 even if they can't phsyically do that. From what I have seen, the model of the Helldrake can't be rotated straight down.

I don't think that the fluff or pictures come into it either

[Nabterayl]

Okay, sounds like we're on the same page - I agree that they can go up or down 45 degrees even if they can't physically do that.

In the case of a Heldrake I kind of do feel like we're being told to bring some combination of fluff and pictures into it, though. I mean, the model clearly cannot maneuver its gun to shoot behind it, yet we're told that the gun can do that. The only rules way I know to make sense of that is to imagine that the neck is flexible enough to look in any direction horizontally (even though, again, the model's neck is not that flexible) - and if that's so, I have to imagine it would be flexible enough to look in any direction vertically as well.

[Magpie]

Thinking on it now, it pretty much becomes irrelevant as with flamers you can place the template vertically up or down a level from the muzzle of the flamer so the 45 degree "dead zone" really won't come into it.

[daboarder]

Okay, sounds like we're on the same page - I agree that they can go up or down 45 degrees even if they can't physically do that.

In the case of a Heldrake I kind of do feel like we're being told to bring some combination of fluff and pictures into it, though. I mean, the model clearly cannot maneuver its gun to shoot behind it, yet we're told that the gun can do that. The only rules way I know to make sense of that is to imagine that the neck is flexible enough to look in any direction horizontally (even though, again, the model's neck is not that flexible) - and if that's so, I have to imagine it would be flexible enough to look in any direction vertically as well.


Its 22.5 up or 22.5 down, you swivel up to 45, by definition that means that fixed weapons can depress or rise up to 22.5 degrees.

Furthermore, Torrent weapons DO NOT have to cover the maximum number of models in a unit, they have their own placement rules and only follow torrent weapons AFTER the weapon has already been placed.

[Magpie]

Its 22.5 up or 22.5 down, you swivel up to 45, by definition that means that fixed weapons can depress or rise up to 22.5 degrees.

The diagram in the rulebook supports that. If that is the case then does that then mean that the template small end can ONLY be placed 12" from the muzzle as any closer is below the maximum depression of the weapon.

[daboarder]

Not really, because the weapon can generate hits from anywhere under the template, allocating the wounds is another matter.

Furthermore, most places follow the FAQ for heldrakes where LOS is measured and determined from the base, its basically a case of heldrake does as heldrake pleases.

[Magpie]

its basically a case of heldrake does as heldrake pleases.

That seems to be the current guiding principle.

[daboarder]

I got no problems with it, its still not as rough as tau commander set ups or the wave serpent.....Shudder


also helps give things like terminators a reason for existing.