The Glory Days of Second Edition

[Jmaximum]

Just played my first WH40K game in 17 or 18 years.. My last experience with the game was 2nd ed. and then there was a brief foray into 3rd, but I won't talk about that nightmare.

So, 6th ed: for the most part I like it. It seems much more fluid, and many less interruptions needed for rules checks.
however, I still feel there is room for improvement (house rules, anyone?) a mobile weapons platform, such as a land raider, is still stymied if you ever want to use it for its actual purpose. Not thrilled with the 'move 6 inches, lose most of your guns' rule.
The powerfists strike last thing still blows my mind. "Hey, Sarge, bad guys are charging us." "Really? Well, we better wait til they hit us before you power up that fist of yours."
ANd finally, my last gripe: I'm a chaplain, who paid for my shiny rosaries, AND I invested in termie armor, however my saves don't stack.

Rant complete (cuz Im outta time at work). WIll post more of the good points later.

[Dalleron]

I think the stacking saves would have been a remnant of WHFB. I could be mistaken but early 40k had to hit modifiers as well and possibly some other rules carry over, but someone somewhere decided that it slowed the game down.

At least I think that's what you are getting at.

[GrauGeist]

In your universe, there are not tradeoffs between one action and another, there is no "cut and choose" tactical play. Simply pay points to do everything all the time, versus pretending there is some sort of internal time-motion limitation in the game. That's fine, though it's less of a simulation. And 40k really is pretty far from a simulation.

[Nabterayl]

I don't know that I'd characterize "take your cover save, take your conversion field save, take your armor save, take your terminator-armor-is-awesome save" as less of a simulation. It is arguably less of an interesting tactical problem, and maybe less fun, but I don't see how it's less of a simulation.

[magickbk]

take your cover save

Cover save? You mean -1/-2 to hit in soft/hard cover? Yeah, I remember most of the rules from 2nd, horribly enough.

As for the simulation concept, overall, no edition is really a simulation of actual battle/combat because none of them make any sense. As a strategy game, the goal is to work within the frame of the rules to outwit and outmaneuver your opponent. Think of it more as chess, which is not a realistic simulation of battle. It is all a battle of the minds given a set of rules and situation, in this case which change from month-to-month with new releases.

[Anakzar]

I liked the 2nd ed shooting modifiers. Speed(moving 12 inches or more was -1) and coming out of cover was -1 to the dice rolled for shooting and there were no cover saves it was covered in the to hit part of the shooting. I think I have that right or close to it...

Stat lines have been greatly nerfed for Tyranids they lost BS and Toughness, attacks and speed/movement(though there other races gained and Tyranids stayed the same. Used to be they moved 6 inches while most other races only moved 4. And they didn't even get Fleet to make up for it...)

I think the game is faster over all and the old close combat rules were tedious... so that's a vast improvement.

[Jmaximum]

It may slow down the time frame of the game, but one of my all-time gripes is the chaplain in termie armor: you're paying the price for the rosaries, and then paying again for the termie
upgrade, yet in essence losing the rosaries.
I really wish they would reintro multiple saves, cuz it would just make sense. I dunno, just doesn't make any sense not to stack them: like a taking a cover save: failing the cover save SIMULATES (I like that other guy's word) the shot passing through the cover, and therefore your armor would then potentially save you.
With the above chaplain example: My rosaries does not block the shot, so the termie armor should.

And then my mobile weapons platforms are stationary mobile weapons platforms. Moving them makes them almost useless except to just draw fire. I prefer 2nd ed where you could move,
and depending on far you went you suffered to-hit penalties.

Just pining for the good ol' days

[Nabterayl]

And then my mobile weapons platforms are stationary mobile weapons platforms. Moving them makes them almost useless except to just draw fire. I prefer 2nd ed where you could move,
and depending on far you went you suffered to-hit penalties.
To be fair, vehicles can move and shoot more now than they have been able to for the last three editions. After 2nd edition but before 6th, the move-and-shoot penalty was not being able to fire a weapon at all. In 6th, at least most weapons can still make Snap Shots.*

* Though there are some amusing artifacts still. A Land Raider with lascannon sponsons can peg somebody on the move because you can Snap Shot a lascannon, but try to peg somebody on the move with a flamestorm cannon and apparently the movement of the tank is too severe to aim :P

[Cap'nSmurfs]

2nd was fun, but I don't miss taking four hours to play out games with three squads and a tank.

[steelmage99]

Too many appeals to "reality", with not enough understanding of the importance of balance and playability, makes for an uninteresting thread.

Were some elements of 2nd. good and fun? Sure.
Were most of the elements of 2nd. good and fun? Hell no.

[GravesDisease]

House rules are perfectly acceptable. If anyone has any doubt whether you should have cover save in addition to armour saves - try it out for yourself with a small 200 point. You'll see how unfun the game becomes, however if you and your opponent actually prefer it then by all means play that way.

[Wolfshade]

As much as I liked 2nd ed, it had the problem that it became far too cumbersome at high points values. I used to run a 30-man death company in it and trying to work out the effect of each and every different combination of weapons, what number they were in combat made for a nightmare.

While I look back with rose tinted glasses, I do not miss it. 6th is slick and quick, it may use more approximations but then this is what the game is about an approximation to a far future reality.

I do like how the rules have got more characterful and slightly more random, though I still rue rolling warlord traits that are useless or powers which are not useful.

[Denzark]

I liked 2nd. Once I got the new hth rules down (I think they were released in WD whilst Rogue Trader was extant) I found them quite quick. I also like modifiers for saves. I don't think it any more onerous or game taxing to work out modifiers if you can fanny around with pain tokens, soulblaze, and all the other jazz you now have to keep track of.

It makes no sense to me that there is no degradation effect of weapons on armour, by which I mean bolter is less likely penetrate armour than heavy bolter which is less likely than Plasma gun etc. The designers talk about the degradation of vehicles hence HP, so why the all or nothing approach to saves I don't know.

I don't remember taking both invulnerable and armour saves though. But I seem to remember save modifier was (usually with a few exceptions) linked to S: S3=-, S4=-1, S5=-2, S6=-3 and so on.

[magickbk]

I liked 2nd. Once I got the new hth rules down (I think they were released in WD whilst Rogue Trader was extant) I found them quite quick. I also like modifiers for saves. I don't think it any more onerous or game taxing to work out modifiers if you can fanny around with pain tokens, soulblaze, and all the other jazz you now have to keep track of.

It makes no sense to me that there is no degradation effect of weapons on armour, by which I mean bolter is less likely penetrate armour than heavy bolter which is less likely than Plasma gun etc. The designers talk about the degradation of vehicles hence HP, so why the all or nothing approach to saves I don't know.

I don't remember taking both invulnerable and armour saves though. But I seem to remember save modifier was (usually with a few exceptions) linked to S: S3=-, S4=-1, S5=-2, S6=-3 and so on.

Effectively AP and the save modifier is almost the same, slightly better for some weapons. For example, a lascannon with a -6 modifier essentially has the same result as AP 1 or 2 now, due to armor. A boltgun with a -1 modifier is not quite as good as AP 5.

Also, you took both saves, but the end result of the wound allocation rules and the high modifiers on weapons that were likely to actually hit a model with a field meant your armor was almost always worthless. It wasn't like now where whole units are running around with a 5++ or 6++.

Incidentally, that is the thing that annoys me most about the current edition. With Snap Shots, new Overwatch, ubiquitous cover, and invulnerable saves, it means everyone is always rolling piles of dice looking for 5s and 6s. Or at least, that has been my impression the past few games.

[Defenestratus]

Just played my first WH40K game in 17 or 18 years.. My last experience with the game was 2nd ed. and then there was a brief foray into 3rd, but I won't talk about that nightmare.

So, 6th ed: for the most part I like it. It seems much more fluid, and many less interruptions needed for rules checks.
however, I still feel there is room for improvement (house rules, anyone?) a mobile weapons platform, such as a land raider, is still stymied if you ever want to use it for its actual purpose. Not thrilled with the 'move 6 inches, lose most of your guns' rule.
The powerfists strike last thing still blows my mind. "Hey, Sarge, bad guys are charging us." "Really? Well, we better wait til they hit us before you power up that fist of yours."
ANd finally, my last gripe: I'm a chaplain, who paid for my shiny rosaries, AND I invested in termie armor, however my saves don't stack.

Rant complete (cuz Im outta time at work). WIll post more of the good points later.


I loved 2nd edition. That being said, the new rules, especially for armor saves are MUCH better.

1) You're paying for the rosarius to protect your character from shots that ignore your base 2+ terminator armor (that comes with a 5+ invulnerable save anyways) so its up to you as to whether or not that rosarius is worth the extra points you pay for it.

The power fist going at I1 is *its* drawback. You weren't around in the times of 3rd and 4th edition where the theory of the "hidden fist" was used in tac squads to great effect. Basically it used to be nigh impossible to pick the powerfist out of the squad before it was able to beat you in the face in combat. In 5th and 6th it got easier - but even @ I1, the fists used to be really, really powerful.

As for vehicles not being able to shoot after they move... yeah that bothered me a lot - especially in 5th where most of my Eldar tanks were pretty much hamstrung by the rules. However your Land Raider has little room to complain. It can move 6" and fire one main gun, and then use PotMS to fire another, then snap fire another.

I bet in the upcoming codex, there will be a way to make Land raiders "Fast" vehicles allowing it to fire even more.

[Jmaximum]

2nd was fun, but I don't miss taking four hours to play out games with three squads and a tank.

Will give u that, Cap,n, 2nd ed took forever to play.

[GrauGeist]

The Machine Spirit is how Land Raiders move and fire.

[Popsical]

There were no glory days of 2nd ed.
The miniatures were becoming very cartoony and certain races looked ghastly (orcs anyone?).
As said earlier, large games took an eternity.
The imagery was poor and dear god the cartooniness of it all... aaaagh!
I played RT, skipped 2nd and came back for 3rd.
Nope no glory there.

[chromedog]

2nd ed was too cartoony?

Have you seen the marine flyers recently?
The GK GIJoe stompy robot?

2nd ed had it in spades over 3rd. Of course, it was as open to abuse as RT, 3rd-6th ed and whilst I didn't have any issues with that, I played with a group whose motto was "don't be a dick!" (before Wil Wheaton used it).

So many of the abuses found in this game can be solved by that one simple phrase (and mindset, more importantly).
The ones that can't can be solved with the rulebook. Applied directly to the offending malefactors and miscreants (that IS why it's a hardcover that weighs a ton, right? OK, ipads might hurt more - but you get repeated use out of the hardcover - you might only get a couple of whacks out of an ipad version before you need a new ... ipad.

[Popsical]

2nd ed figs were by and large awful.
And yes they were far more cartoony than now, tho i grant you some of the new releases dont float my boat.
Granted the casting has come a long way, but the general ideas of the mid to late 90s era were just shocking.
2nd ed orcs and gobbos were dire.

[magickbk]

The look of an individual range was highly dependent on the primary sculptor responsible for that army. The most cartoony stuff in the game was the old Bob Olley stuff, which was the earliest from Rogue Trader. Some things from that era, such as the 2nd Edition Eldar sculpts by Jes Goodwin, were already moving in the direction that you see later. The Orks didn't hit their stride until 3rd edition, when Brian Johnson came up with the look that GW Orks now follow.

[Psychosplodge]

Didn't the modern ork look come from gorkamorka? Wasn't that still 2nd?

[Cactus]

There were no glory days of 2nd ed.
The miniatures were becoming very cartoony and certain races looked ghastly (orcs anyone?).
The imagery was poor and dear god the cartooniness of it all... aaaagh!


I liked the early models, especially the Bob Olley Squats!

Some of the posing was awkward, but I certainly don't mind the sculpts. I guess playing a game with space vampires and space vikings fighting space elves that shoot ninja stars from their guns feels pretty cartoony to me already so I don't mind if the models are not that realistic.

[magickbk]

Didn't the modern ork look come from gorkamorka? Wasn't that still 2nd?

That laid the groundwork, but if you look at the models you will see that the heads are smaller, the torsos are smaller in relation to the legs, and the overall pose is different. Some of the models looked like the later stuff, and if you look them up, you'll find they are Brian Nelson's early work. When it came time to re-do the 40K and Fantasy ranges, they turned it over to Brian Nelson(which is the name I got wrong above), and he took that groundwork, and made it more ape-like, and exaggerated the facial features. At that time, each army had a distinctive look, some of which followed an aesthetic that GW liked, and some that they couldn't get the sculptors to cooperate on. Now that Jes Goodwin is in charge of the overall design, things look like they belong to the same game.

[GrauGeist]

I do not miss the "Red" period that runs through 2nd Edition. Nor do I miss large numbers of individual units each having an entire page of rules.

That said, I do miss my Warp Spiders using the LARGE Flame Template (Apocalypse Flamer, in modern terms). And setting models ON FIRE. Not to mention the "move counters and tokens" phase at the start of each turn. And Vortex Grenades. Hoo, boy. Tactics? schmactics. Wind 'em up and watch 'em go!

[Da Gargoyle]

I bought the starter kit at the time 2nd ed was running and still have the rule books and cards. In fact I have half a mind to dig out the tokens for shaken, stunned and immobilised results. They could even work on hull point records. As for the Orks of the time, I remember seeing a squad of them with Elvis hair do's, Da King Lives On. And I remember trying to work out the assault rules where at the very last moment, a role of 1 meant the space marine slipped on a banana skin and copped it in the nads from the grot. The whole phase only took half an hour to work out with multiple modifiers due to weapon selections, charging, shooting, and dice results. (Does anyone remember the flamer pistol?) They brought out 3rd Ed 4 months later and the whole lot was easier to explain to a 9 year old.

[Popsical]

I liked the early models, especially the Bob Olley Squats!

Some of the posing was awkward, but I certainly don't mind the sculpts. I guess playing a game with space vampires and space vikings fighting space elves that shoot ninja stars from their guns feels pretty cartoony to me already so I don't mind if the models are not that realistic.

Squats... they made me love the nids! Thank god the nids ate them, i bet they still looked poo when they were digested.

[Cactus]

Squats... they made me love the nids! Thank god the nids ate them, i bet they still looked poo when they were digested.

You're just jealous that the Squats haven't had a codex for 20 years and they are still a better than 'nids.

[Popsical]

Lol. The nids are pretty awful these days it has to be said, but thats easily put down to a poor diet when they were young.

[Psychosplodge]

But it makes no sense, the homeworlds were in the galactic centre, and the 'nids appeared on the eastern fringe...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

A psychic hiveswarm of world-devouring insectoids did it

[Popsical]

More likely racial suicide when they realised they were all hells angels rejects.

[Cactus]

But it makes no sense, the homeworlds were in the galactic centre, and the 'nids appeared on the eastern fringe...

Obviously, the 'nids have tunneled through space.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Space is three dimensional.

[bfmusashi]

The 'nid fleet that ate the homeworlds came from below. Maybe the galaxy wobbled a lot.

[Psychosplodge]

so they went past all that other stuff and then came up at the squats? not buying it...

[bfmusashi]

They were labeled Fun Size.

[Psychosplodge]

How do you guarantee the amount of fun in fun sized? it's not a standard measure of content. How is less (as they're usually smaller) chocolate more fun?

[Wolfshade]

so they went past all that other stuff and then came up at the squats? not buying it...

While space is 4D (you forgot time, very important dimension) the galaxy is essentially flat, so maybe a splinter fleet came from above/below to the the core worlds.

Is there anything in the current cannon that suggests that the Squats existed? I know in the 6th rule book it recognises them as abhumans. Perhaps this is paving the way for a re-birth

[Psychosplodge]

That's what I mean.
The Nid's are assumed to have come from another galaxy right? So should all be coming in from the same direction. Or are we assuming the eastern fringe ones came from below too and turned inwards?

[miteyheroes]

That's what I mean.
The Nid's are assumed to have come from another galaxy right? So should all be coming in from the same direction. Or are we assuming the eastern fringe ones came from below too and turned inwards?

Or every other galaxy in the universe has already been eaten, and the nids are now approaching from several dimensions...

[Psychosplodge]

All at the same time?
The distances are too vast to have them turn up within a millennia of each other.

[Wolfshade]

If we assume that there are countably infinite number of galaxies then the probability of two or more hive fleets (or splinters there of) arriving simultaneously is probably not that improbable.

[Psychosplodge]

oh indeed, how did I make that failing?

But on the otherhand, if you have an infinite number of stars, and life naturally occurs around say 0.1% we don't exist anyway (near 0 divide by infinity = 0 right?) so the odds of any turning up are negligible.

[Wolfshade]

Well, of all the planets that we can throughly investigate we can say for sure that life exists on the 1 out of 1 planet in the sample :o though i remain unconvinced that it is intelligent...

I don't know to be fair, there is the Drake equation which starts off sound and then wanders off into obscurity

[Psychosplodge]

Well, of all the planets that we can throughly investigate we can say for sure that life exists on the 1 out of 1 planet in the sample :o though i remain unconvinced that it is intelligent...

I don't know to be fair, there is the Drake equation which starts off sound and then wanders off into obscurity

The Jury's still out.

The drake equation?

http://i43.tinypic.com/25rjipk.jpg

[Wolfshade]

The Wikipedia deffinition is as good as any:

The Drake equation is a probabilistic argument used to estimate the number of active, communicative extraterrestrial civilizations in the Milky Way galaxy. The equation was written in 1961 by Frank Drake not for purposes of quantifying the number of civilizations, but intended as a way to stimulate scientific dialogue at the world's first SETI meeting, in Green Bank, West Virginia. The equation summarizes the main factors which scientists must contemplate when considering the question of other radio-communicative life. The Drake equation has proved controversial since several of its factors are currently unknown, and estimates of their values span a very wide range. This has led critics to label the equation a guesstimate, or even meaningless.

http://www.noeticscience.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/drake-equation.jpg

[Psychosplodge]

It seems a reasonable outline, obviously blanks will be filled as progress occurs...

[Wolfshade]

We have a good handle on R* but fp was thought to be well known, but with new methods for divineing planets this estimation has been blown out of the water, ne is again quite well known, or estimated based on the godilocks zone, though if we find life on jupiter's moon that would blow this out of the water, also if there is none carbon based that use something other than water as the main catalyst. Then it all goes down hill

[bfmusashi]

They can also come from the same point of origin. Galaxies move and wobble. While one group could depart and hit our galaxy in the 'east' another could depart at another time and hit the galaxy in the 'belly' (ventral, nadir, whatever).

[Popsical]

Given that the universe is infinite, the population is near as dammit zero, so anyone you meet is merely a product of a deranged mind.

[GrauGeist]

Is there anything in the current cannon that suggests that the Squats existed? I know in the 6th rule book it recognises them as abhumans. Perhaps this is paving the way for a re-birth

If GW were to bring back Squats, I'd have expected it to happen under the Tau umbrella. They're not Marines, not Guard, could get funky cool rules like the Kroot.

[Wolfshade]

Well there is always the constant mutterings of Demiurg who are strenuously described as not being Squats, so that is a possibility and they are even already under the Tau umberella..

[magickbk]

Well there is always the constant mutterings of Demiurg who are strenuously described as not being Squats, so that is a possibility and they are even already under the Tau umberella..

Time to start some unfounded rumors of them being in the questionable-at-most Supplement for Tau Auxiliaries.

[Wolfshade]

Time to start some unfounded rumors of them being in the questionable-at-most Supplement for Tau Auxiliaries.

Lol.

Of course you could always do a counts-as IG ally for the Tau, with rough rider rules used for the bikes/trikes

[bfmusashi]

Squats run around as Lathe Masters in Dark Heresy. I thought it was a fun way of getting them back in.