Flying MC, in zoom mode, and area terrain and going to ground to get a 4+ cover save?

[Daemonette666]

This came up on another website. I tend to think that you can not do it, but the rules as written do not support my view.

Apparently it was ruled at a 40K tournament that a winged hive tyrant could go to ground to get a better cover save whilst sitting on top of area terrain while in zoom mode.

I thought a zooming FMC was sitting above the terrain, so could not get a cover save from the area terrain. I thought it only had 3 types of save options - dive (jink - cover save 5+)/ intervening terrain based on a large building partly blocking Line of Sight to the FMC could provide a 4+ cover save (from a large ruined building), armour normally 2+ or 3+ on these big nasty units, or invul save, normally 4+ or 5+. After that you could still be able to take a FNP roll if the weapon was not ID.

You would have to take a grounding test, which if failed meant you could not take any armour or cover saves. again invul saves and if your toughness was 5 or more, a FNP roll (if you had the special rule).

Also based on the fluff in the description for diving, not the diving rules them selves, it mentions dodging to avoid the incoming fire. Would a successful diving test mean that you avoided getting hit in the first place, and thus not have to take a grounding test, or does it mean that you only avoided the unsaved Wound?

So many things GW need to address in their next round of Errata/FAQs.

I tried to address this in a rules as intended via the fluff and how the they should be interpreted, as the rules are hazy, and can be interpreted in a few ways based on what is said, or not specifically said. I said as a reply that if the person wanted to take an area terrain cover save and then decided to "go to ground". then it would be like voluntarily electing to fail the grounding test made after being hit by one or more weapons from a unit. This means you automatically get a Str 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed. I also said you had this option, or you count the going to ground as taking your dive / jink roll, which is only a 5+. I have not heard the replies to this yet, but I am sure that they will be heavily accented with the psuedo abuse hashes and asterix, etc (i.e. B@&& S*#t).

Nothing stops a FMC from getting a cover save from area terrain according to RAW, also nothing specifically mentions where the FMC is in relation to the terrain the models is placed on while zooming. You can not force the FMC to take a dangerous terrain test for zooming in cover, as they have move the through cover special rule. The FMC gets the bonus of being hard to hit Snap shots only, unless you have the skyfire rule.

I think this one will likely be as annoying long and undecidable as the debates we saw in the Black mace and hexrifle threads.

[Asuryan]

1 isn't a hive tyrant fearless? because if so it can't go to ground.

2 RAW i would have to say that yes a FMC can go to ground, as stupid as that sounds.

3 I don't really see the connection between GTG and the grounding test

4 Because GTG means that you can't move or run in you next turn the FMC has to switch to Gliding and then not move making it able to be hit normally which means that what shot made you GTG in the first place most likely will be able to fire at you again hitting at normal BS instead of snap shots, so i don't really see the point.

[Magpie]

A zooming flying monstrous creature cannot go to ground as it is required to move a minimum of 12" in the movement phase and going to ground will violate this as you have to remain "gone to ground" until the end of your next turn. Being ruled that you can is a fairly poor reflection on the rule abilities of the TO.

Diving tests can only be taken after the To Hit rolls are made. I see what you're saying but the game mechanic is that incoming fire causes the FMC to dive to avoid it, possibly avoiding the wound with the jink cover save but the danger of crashing to the ground due to the violent manoeuvre still remains so you take the grounding test.

Does a ZFMC take difficult terrain tests ? No. Ergo you aren't in the terrain you are over it.

[daboarder]

A zooming flying monstrous creature cannot go to ground as it is required to move a minimum of 12" in the movement phase and going to ground will violate this as you have to remain "gone to ground" until the end of your next turn. Being ruled that you can is a fairly poor reflection on the rule abilities of the TO.

Diving tests can only be taken after the To Hit rolls are made. I see what you're saying but the game mechanic is that incoming fire causes the FMC to dive to avoid it, possibly avoiding the wound with the jink cover save but the danger of crashing to the ground due to the violent manoeuvre still remains so you take the grounding test.

Does a ZFMC take difficult terrain tests ? No. Ergo you aren't in the terrain you are over it.

Do you even read the rules mate? Ever?

Firstly swooping it determined at the start of the fliers turn. If it has grg then it cannot swoop NEXT turn.

Nothing in swooping prevents GTG but gtg means you are stopped immediately.

And furthermore a HT cannot go to ground anyway.

[Magpie]

You are correct swooping IS determined at the start of the flyer's turn BUT and here's the tricky bit, if it is currently swooping (in the enemy shooting phase) then it must have already decided it is swooping in it's previous movement phase.

As per Page 49 it can't change mode between swooping or gliding until the start of it's next turn so you can't change mode by going to ground in your opponents shooting phase.
The only possible way it can change mode is by failing a grounding test.

[daboarder]

You dont even understand the question you nut

[Magpie]

You dont even understand the question you nut

If you could possibly move on from name calling there might be some productive exchange of points of view here.
If you can't then PM them to me and don't clutter up the thread with it all.

"a winged hive tyrant could go to ground to get a better cover save whilst sitting on top of area terrain while in zoom mode."
I read that as "can an FMC go to ground to get the cover save of the terrain he is over and improve it as well".
The OP seems to be looking to explore the general case rather than specifically the Hive Tyrant.

[Daemonette666]

Since the Flying Hive Tyrant is fearless that is a moot point, but a Flying Daemon Prince, or even a Bloodthirster is not fearless, but automatically passes Fear, Pinning or Morale tests. similar, but not the same, which is one of the arguments they are using to say a FMC can try to go to ground.

I would assume the FMC is above the terrain, not in it, so it can not get the area terrain based cover save. It could get a cover save from intervening terrain such as a tall ruin that would obscure it to the shooter Line of Sight.

I thought the only way a FMC that is zooming over area terrain but not in it and take then attempt to go to ground, is to fail a grounding test, or to dive into the terrain.

I still think the FMC can not go to ground, while it is zooming, in gliding mode yes, but then it is being shot by weapons that have blast templates, and other weapons that hit at normal BS. Many of them have the ignores cover rule.

I just had a thought. How would the following weapons affect a zooming FMC that attempts to dive to avoid taking the hit in the first place - Blast Master in Assault 2 mode, and sonic blasters, and any other ignores cover direct fire (non blast, non template) weapons? Would the FMC be able to get to take the jink roll - cover save?

[Magpie]

I just had a thought. How would the following weapons affect a zooming FMC that attempts to dive to avoid taking the hit in the first place - Blast Master in Assault 2 mode, and sonic blasters, and any other ignores cover direct fire (non blast, non template) weapons? Would the FMC be able to get to take the jink roll - cover save?

Jink confers a cover save so Ignores Cover weapons would ignore it I'd reckon, in that instance there'd be no point in diving.

[daboarder]

Since the Flying Hive Tyrant is fearless that is a moot point, but a Flying Daemon Prince, or even a Bloodthirster is not fearless, but automatically passes Fear, Pinning or Morale tests. similar, but not the same, which is one of the arguments they are using to say a FMC can try to go to ground.

I would assume the FMC is above the terrain, not in it, so it can not get the area terrain based cover save. It could get a cover save from intervening terrain such as a tall ruin that would obscure it to the shooter Line of Sight

Thats not how the rule works, a swooping monstrous creature is not a zooming flier, it gets cover the same way ever single other monstrous creature does (plus jink)

[chicop76]

Since the Flying Hive Tyrant is fearless that is a moot point, but a Flying Daemon Prince, or even a Bloodthirster is not fearless, but automatically passes Fear, Pinning or Morale tests. similar, but not the same, which is one of the arguments they are using to say a FMC can try to go to ground.

I would assume the FMC is above the terrain, not in it, so it can not get the area terrain based cover save. It could get a cover save from intervening terrain such as a tall ruin that would obscure it to the shooter Line of Sight.

I thought the only way a FMC that is zooming over area terrain but not in it and take then attempt to go to ground, is to fail a grounding test, or to dive into the terrain.

I still think the FMC can not go to ground, while it is zooming, in gliding mode yes, but then it is being shot by weapons that have blast templates, and other weapons that hit at normal BS. Many of them have the ignores cover rule.

I just had a thought. How would the following weapons affect a zooming FMC that attempts to dive to avoid taking the hit in the first place - Blast Master in Assault 2 mode, and sonic blasters, and any other ignores cover direct fire (non blast, non template) weapons? Would the FMC be able to get to take the jink roll - cover save?

I just noticed that unless the FAQ says otherwise MC's can gtg as long as they are not fearless, so Tau and Daemons are the only MC's that can GTG. If they are in glide mode than yes they can do so. Interesting.

I have to look at swoop mode and the FAQ later, but just going by the BRB they can.

However it hurts most of the MC's to GTG anyway. Heck if you decide to GTG with a Bloodthirster you doing me a favor.

However the only models I see this benefiting is Fateweaver and The Great Unclean One. Although I rather Fateweaver in the air, but needing 2's to hurt Weaver in area terrain is not bad, and you still can cast buffs in this state. However with the Great Unclean on he will have a +2 cover save giving out buffs.

Actually Tzeentch and Nurgle princes will benefit from this as well. Heck all I have to do is fly in area terrain and buff all day. With Tzeentch you need a 2 to hurt him and with Nurgle you need a 1. Throw in Fateweaver it than gets rather broken with a +2 re rollable on one roll. This changes some things and gives out options.

The big question is can you gtg while swooping. I would say no since the Faq would put you flying on top the board, while glide doesn't do that. Once grounded I can see you doing so. Going to ground off being grounded seems possible.

To the OP the only army it really aplies to is Daemons. Again Daemons break another rule.


Just saying in general that gtg benefit the Unclean one and that the Riptide can gtg. I know they are not flying MCs that can swoop.

[Magpie]

Thats not how the rule works, a swooping monstrous creature is not a zooming flier, it gets cover the same way ever single other monstrous creature does (plus jink)

Only if it is "in" Area Terrain, D666 is suggesting that a FMC is in reality above the terrain which would mean it isn't "in" it.

[Magpie]

.... MC's can gtg as long as they are not fearless, so Tau and Daemons are the only MC's that can GTG.

Gk Dreadknight isn't Fearless either.

[Daemonette666]

Does it have ATSKNF? If so, it automatically rallies next turn, and becomes fearless if caught by a sweeping advance. The terrify power will still effect it though, and possibly make it move back 3D6" away from where your enemy wants it to be (hopefully). More importantly it will also be able to go to ground and then auto rally next turn. Move 3" consolidation, then have a normal turn without the penalties that non space marine (ATSKNF) forces get. Nasty.

[Magpie]

Does it have ATSKNF? If so, it automatically rallies next turn, and becomes fearless if caught by a sweeping advance. The terrify power will still effect it though, and possibly make it move back 3D6" away from where your enemy wants it to be (hopefully).

ATSKNF doesn't give you Fearless in a sweeping advance, it just means you don't go anywhere.

But forget all that, point is, it can go to ground along with a scant few other MC's.

[chicop76]

Does it have ATSKNF? If so, it automatically rallies next turn, and becomes fearless if caught by a sweeping advance. The terrify power will still effect it though, and possibly make it move back 3D6" away from where your enemy wants it to be (hopefully). More importantly it will also be able to go to ground and then auto rally next turn. Move 3" consolidation, then have a normal turn without the penalties that non space marine (ATSKNF) forces get. Nasty.

It actually does. Honestly though why would you gtg with that unit anyway. It hurts you more that it helps you.

I have to look again for 6th, but in 5th you couldn't gtg and than remove the fact that you are pinned. I will look again, but I doubt it will remove pinning checks. It does effect morale though.


Hmmm so I can pin a dreadknight. Never noticed that. Yeah

Looking throught the rules it can autorally on regroup test. Gtg and pinning are not re grouping test, so it will be able to do nothing the following turn if it decideds to go to ground. Glad they re worded it to make it clearer. They even faqed the marines in 5th saying they can't do that.