Countering Deep Strike Battlesuits.

[interrogator_chaplain]

So my regular opponent is a Tau player who regularly pulls a tactic that devastates at least 1 squad every round of shooting and I have a difficult time fighting back when it happens.

So I'm playing Dark Angels Greenwing (Already not looking good against Tau) and what usually happens, is that around turn 3, when space in my deployment zone opens up he drops in his Battlesuits running full plasma and full drones as a defensive screen. Due to his pact with some sort of Luck Daemon, he often never rolls scatter (I've checked it's not loaded. (Unfortunately, as that would explain his preternatural luck!)) and they plonk down unleashing something like 18 pulse carbine shots and 15 plasma rifle shots often enough to rip apart 1 10 man tactical squad (I run high tactical squads) and then jump away and then come back and do it all over again. As he does it on deep strike, I've got no response for this and I've yet to eliminate his commander.

I'm often trying to win the game through objectives and he's often trying to wipe me off the table and ignore the objectives.

It would be going a lot better for me against him if I could fight back against that one move he makes against me and the only way I can really fight back is to have him roll on the deep strike mishap chart OR keep all of my forces back in defence of my deployment zone and let him capture objectives.

Clearly neither of those are good moves.

I beseech you hive mind, little help?

[Magpie]

Taking an Allied detachment of Inquisitor Coteaz with an Inquisitorial Warband of 3 Plasma Acolytes, 6 Acolytes with Storm Bolters and 3 Servitors w Heavy Bolters along with a Grey Knight Strike squad or two will shut down any Deep Strike shenanigans.

The Strike Squads cause an auto mishap to anything within 12" if they have their Warp Quake Psychic power running. Combat squad them and you can cover a vast area.
Coteaz with the Warband can shoot at anything arriving from reserve within 12". That's 6 S7AP2 + 12 S4AP5 + 9 S5 AP4

You can also add a Quad Gun that can shoot the Deep Strikers at the end of the turn that they arrive.

[Isaac Gutierrez]

I also play dark angels, but as I have a large colection of incompleted armies, I often use allies. Some of the strategies I would use are.
1: use smaller units. (5 man assault squads, 3 bikes, cheap tactical squads, scouts, etc) that way, he will need to kill more of your units to make up for his points, and will only be able to do it one at a turn.

2: divide your force is small detachments spread trough out the table, this way, your units wont be too close, preventing his death star to move from one to the other.

3: make use of cover, specially if there is an open space where he would like to drop.

4: use allies: the grey knights have inquisidors with skulls, which affect deep strike, imperial guard is very cheap, and veterans can be very well equipped and remain cheap. Blood angels have assault troops as core and the priests give them Feel No Pain (3 for one elite choice).

4: use the same strategy and bring azrael and bikes with terminators, That way your deep striking guys wont scatter, and you will be landing right in his face from turn 1 (thanks to scout and teleport hommer on the bikes and deathwing assault on the termies)

[Magpie]

4: use allies: the grey knights have inquisidors with skulls, which affect deep strike,

They only affect your own Deep Strike, they don't worry enemy DS'ing.

Nice move with the smaller units idea tho' I'd not thought of that but it is a good way in general to lessen the Tau's firepower.

[DarkLink]

Tau have easy access to split fire. They can target multiple units at once, so it wouldn't do much good unless he doesn't take that upgrade. Make sure to check his list before the game for that.

Take transports, and use them as shields. Small arms fire kills off the drones, then once those are dead you need stuff that can kill his suits.



4: use the same strategy and bring azrael and bikes with terminators, That way your deep striking guys wont scatter, and you will be landing right in his face from turn 1 (thanks to scout and teleport hommer on the bikes and deathwing assault on the termies)

Riptides would love that.

[Magpie]

Tau have easy access to split fire. They can target multiple units at once, so it wouldn't do much good unless he doesn't take that upgrade. Make sure to check his list before the game for that.

They do but in taking that they are sacrificing something else, so if nothing else you are forcing him to spend his points on an otherwise less than useful upgrade.
Even if he does take the upgrade you are still diluting his fire power by spreading it across a number of units

The beauty with Space Marines is they can instantly double the number of units they have at deployment and with the new combat squad rule you don't lose out on you transports.

[G00dySmiley]

I am in agreeance with the coteaz idea and allying grey knights.

I use them as allies to my eldar often to counter deep strike armies liek all drop pod armies or farsight bomb

coteaz 100

henchmen w/ 3 plasma cannons 60, 3 acolites in power armor with plasma guns 72, 4 storm bolter acolytes 28, and if you have the points 2 jerako at 35 are a hell of a buff team for them and add a few multimelta shots which you can have them take last and could instant kill suits .. but at 70 they cost alot.

strike squad w/ 10 guys, combat squaded with a rhino, 2 psycannons 260 (for small games 150 for psycannon, rhino, and 5 man)

they are an axpensive ally at 520(without jeriko), but if you are playing lower points games drop to a 5 man strike squad and lose the power armor and storm bolter acolytes (they exist to catch bullets up front first really)

the strike squad casts warp quake and prevents deep striking anywhere near your guys except for near coteaz who unloads 3 plasma cannons, 6 plasma gun shots, and 12 storm bolter shots. added bonus if you have an aegis line with quadgun to rip into them as well.

you could also instead of the henchman squad get

coteaz 100

attach him to a dark angels command squad with 5 vertrans with plasma guns 175

thn strike squad in rhino with psycannon 150 if poitn sallow do this x2 and warpquake is in two places

[Magpie]

That's the bugger of only having Allies of Convenience, Coteaz can never attach to anything other than Grey Knight stuff

[Aegwymourn]

I would agree with the general consensus that taking Grey Knight allies for deep strike defense is a no-brainer. They are just so good at it.

Darklink also has an excellent point about bringing transports. Depending on your opponents composition he might have a hard time removing enough before his deep-strike squad comes in. I think transports are going to be on their way back in after Tau and Eldar are so obviously good at killing infantry out in the open.

Also remember killing drones counts towards the 25% moral check for shooting casualties. Tau leadership is pretty meh.

[G00dySmiley]

That's the bugger of only having Allies of Convenience, Coteaz can never attach to anything other than Grey Knight stuff

hmm just looked that up, i am always when allying imperium convenience ally at best but i thought all the space marines played nice together guess not

[Maakeff]

Mmm, it's pretty clear that Interceptor is the rule you need access to, here. Quad Gun via Aegis Line is a universal option to get that, alternately Mortis Contemptor Dreadnoughts are lauded as being especially effective when equipped with dual Kheres assault cannons and a Cyclone missile launcher.

[chicop76]

Quad gun is not going to help, the suits will litterly laugh at it.

The best option is to reserve half your army, and leave the rest hiding behind los blocking cover. Use a unit that only a deep striking unit can attack as bait to lure him to deep strike where you want him to. He than kills unit and when you come on the board take kim out.

Without resorting to allies I would take Sammuel and a HQ squad of 5 bikes with 4 plasma and a rad grenade launcher. Also take a Libby on a bike with another 5 man HQ unit ran like above. Make sure libby have the gear that lowers cover saves by one.

When he decides to deepstrike on the lure. You come in with your 12 bikes and hopefully rapid fire his suits to death plasma weapons than can cause instant death. If he is in cover which probably a +4 save he will be getting a +5 save thanks to your libby.

Before shooting the suits I will have my other units waste his drones first.

I would let him go first so your two reserve units come after his.

Another thought is to field the elite bikes which is the same as the hq bikes, but cost more and attach Azreal with them for the +4 invulnerable, and put them in +4 cover which will give them a +3 cover save due to skilled rider,may be +1 jink have to re look, but I think it's +1 cover. Place your army in a way if he does deep strike he would be plasmaed by your bikes and assaulted, the have rending in combat. Of course you will have to detach your bikes from Azareal.

Besides bikes I don't really see any real options. You can take missle devstators which I am sure he will kill.

If he is not running any fusion at all than adding vehicles would help, but all he has to do is take fusion which would negate taking a lot of vehicles.

Transports wouldn't be. Bad ideal since he can't shoot at your guys when he pops the trans ports.

I have to look to see if you can take 2 melta guns, but taking drop pods is an ideal.

If you go allies I would take Tau. Riptide with earlywarning is a quick deterant for suits deep striking in your deployment. Also 3 broadsides with the same thing firing rail guns would be nice.

You can take greyknights, but the troop and fast attack squads really don't deter deep striking. Cortez does though. Especially if he has decent amount of fire power like from a fully decked purifier squad. Bs 3 plasma gunners are not that scarry with drones taking the plasma hits. I would be more affraid of 16 psycannon shots and 12 storm bolter shots.

If you going green foot heavy you will have problems. Your bikes are really good and your terminators are ok.

You can also field the wonderful strength 10 ap 2 pie plate tank. You may want to field about 2.

[Magpie]

Reducing the number of threats to a shooty army like Tau by reserving half your army so that they come in little bit by little bit is a pretty sure fire way to make certain that the Tau can shoot you to bits at their leisure IMO.

I don't see how a guaranteed Deep Strike Mishap isn't a deterrent to a Deep Striker?

Probably need to keep in mind that the Pie Plate tank is only AV11 on the sides and the 24" range allows the Tau to easily leap all around it too.

[dwez]

I've only played against Tau once so forgive me if I'm not fully understanding the situation.

He Deepstrikes and kills a 10 man squad in his turn.

You either follow the advice suggested already [Grey Knights, Transports, Interceptor Quad Gun] or hide behind and Aegis or other Fortification and hope to weather the storm. Also if you know it's going to happen turn 3 then you know when to get into cover so his shooting is less effective.

In your turn you then shoot and assault, I'm not sure how he's jumping away and Deep Striking again before you do this. Do battlesuits allow you to hop on and off the board, certainly not in one turn surely? Flyers can't zoom on and off with impunity I can't imagine they gave Tau rules to do so.

Forgive me if I'm talking out of my hat, I know their markerlights negate cover saves but the game I had against Tau that was about as craxy as they got.

[chicop76]

Reducing the number of threats to a shooty army like Tau by reserving half your army so that they come in little bit by little bit is a pretty sure fire way to make certain that the Tau can shoot you to bits at their leisure IMO.

I don't see how a guaranteed Deep Strike Mishap isn't a deterrent to a Deep Striker?

Probably need to keep in mind that the Pie Plate tank is only AV11 on the sides and the 24" range allows the Tau to easily leap all around it too.

1. Unless you deploy your army out in the open it is rather hard to wipe you off the board. Tau is not a leaf blower, but they can get rid of units if they really want too. Outside of 36" Tau really don't have the fire power to wipe a whole army off the board turn 1 unless you deploy stupid and have no terrain on the board. This is another reason you let Tau deploy first since you can deploy out of his 36" threat range. It's very effective and done it many times. Out of playing since 3rd I can say I never been tabled on turn one by any army. I have been tabled like 4times out of probably hundreds of games. The armies that did so was Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and IG. I played with hardly no terrain on the board lots of times. I still say Tau have a hard time trying to table you turn one. Especally if he has units in reserve as well.

22. How is it gaurenteed. You have to pass your psychic test to be able to do it. If you fail, guess what no anti deep strike bubble. Meaning you have to pass your test to get it to work.

Second I simply deep stike out of the 12" bubble. The 12" bubble can only cover so much of the board. Just from experance with my daemons I may had mishap like once or twice with my whole army against greyknights due to the bubble out of 20+ games, and that was due to really bad rolling. Also mishaps is not as bad as it was in 5th. Also since it's grey knight allies that's even better. I kill x greyknight unit which pops a side you have no bubble and I deep strike suits there and they plasma death you anyway. Good job fielding more expensive marines. Honestly with my Tau army doing the same thing I can easily erase 2 greyknight squads in turn one and where is your bubble now. Hince why I think it's not a great ideal.

3. Hince why I said two tanks instead of one. Side armour is as easy to hit as you allow it. To this day I make peopl mad who can't hit my chimera side armour. Not saying they can't. Just saying I don't make it easy. Playing with my Exorcist it's rare they are hit at the side armour. It's all about placement and thanks to premeasuring it's a lot harder to hit side. If he is running all strength 6 plasma suits he will still have a difficult time with taking out one tank let a lone two. Remember the turrent doesn't have to face them, but just have to be in the arc of fire.

However against my Tau list I have faced two of those tanks and had to smash them with my riptides. At the time I was running missile sides and ion hammerhead. Depending what else he is running he may not be prepared to deal with 13 armour. Even broadsides with railguns have issues with death with 13 armour since they need 6s to actually kill it and a 5 only glance it. Which means he need a hammerhead to possibly kill the tank. It would be hard for the tau player, unless he his geared to do so take out to armour 13 vehicles at range. Most Tau armies uses weight of fire. Mine is more anti 13 since I hate necrons. Others go for the deep strike bomb.

However the tanks do what the riptides do to other armies. Heck a battle cannon would be perfect, instant death all over.

However since he is playing Primary Dark Angels. It's his Dark Angel option he has instead of using allies to do something his army can do.

[Maakeff]

I have another offer of an alternative - bunker up, sit in a fortified building. Deep-striking to within 6 inches to get the Melta-rule off is risky as hell for him.

[chicop76]

I've only played against Tau once so forgive me if I'm not fully understanding the situation.

He Deepstrikes and kills a 10 man squad in his turn.

You either follow the advice suggested already [Grey Knights, Transports, Interceptor Quad Gun] or hide behind and Aegis or other Fortification and hope to weather the storm. Also if you know it's going to happen turn 3 then you know when to get into cover so his shooting is less effective.

In your turn you then shoot and assault, I'm not sure how he's jumping away and Deep Striking again before you do this. Do battlesuits allow you to hop on and off the board, certainly not in one turn surely? Flyers can't zoom on and off with impunity I can't imagine they gave Tau rules to do so.

Forgive me if I'm talking out of my hat, I know their markerlights negate cover saves but the game I had against Tau that was about as craxy as they got.

Suits doing assault can move 2d6 in any direction they want too, instead of assaulting, so they can deep strike and move 2d6 afterwards flying over cover and behind a wall that blocks line of sight for example.

Aegis is a poor fortification against Tau. In some cases it's a waste of points. Too much ignore cover.

Interceptor is only good if it can lay out enough fire power to cripple or kill the suits. In most cases it doesn't. Just think marines with 2 wounds surronded by a whole bunch of scouts that move 6" + 2d6"

Actually a skyshield wouldn't be a bad ideal +4 invulnerable saves would help against plasma death and he can't ignore invulnerable saves.

Transports is good, but I wouldn't rely on Grey Knight allies. If he was playing all GreyKnights than it would be differant. Taking them as allies really limits the greyknights. Also keep in mind one greyknigh almost cost 2x more than a regular marine. If he is killing regular marines with ease he will do the same with greyknights. The only differance is now you have a lot less bodies. If he is fielding something like 2 rip tides and a broadside unit. He can possibly kill both greyknight squads.

However going combat teams may also help. Tau can easily take out big squads and taking a bunch of smaller squads will force him to waste fire power killing 5 instead of 10. Also if you do go the greyknight route it would work better fo anti deep striking coverage. However the greyknight bubble is not really a big deterant.

[chicop76]

I have another offer of an alternative - bunker up, sit in a fortified building. Deep-striking to within 6 inches to get the Melta-rule off is risky as hell for him.

Melta range for Tau is 18" with 9" for the Melta rule. Heck take a fortress of redeption. Be really hard to get you out of that craziness. Also the weapon options are rather nice.

[Magpie]

1. Outside of 36" Tau really don't have the fire power to wipe a whole army off the board turn 1 unless you deploy stupid and have no terrain on the board.

Or put half your army in reserve. The problem with reserves is that you don't know how may are coming in and when and Tau can focus all that firepower on fewer units which the OP is saying is just eating him up.


2. How is it gaurenteed. You have to pass your psychic test to be able to do it. If you fail, guess what no anti deep strike bubble. Meaning you have to pass your test to get it to work.
Second I simply deep stike out of the 12" bubble.

Psychic Test on LD 9 is a pretty safe bet and once it is running a mishap is a certainty.

If you deploy your squad of 5 at maximum coherency distance you can cover an oval area 25" x 37" so two squads of 5 can cover will make a footprint 50" x 37". That puts the Tau well out of range of the assets you are protecting.

I'd be keen to bunker up tho', particularly with one of those new twin Quad Lascannon jobs!

[40kGamer]

Psychic Test on LD 9 is a pretty safe bet and once it is running a mishap is a certainty. If you deploy your squad of 5 at maximum coherency distance you can cover an oval area 25" x 37" so two squads of 5 can cover will make a footprint 50" x 37". That puts the Tau well out of range of the assets you are protecting.

Does Warp Quake work if the unit is in a transport?

[Magpie]

Does Warp Quake work if the unit is in a transport?

As it doesn't need a target and is an area effect I'm saying it will.

[chicop76]

Or put half your army in reserve. The problem with reserves is that you don't know how may are coming in and when and Tau can focus all that firepower on fewer units which the OP is saying is just eating him up.



Psychic Test on LD 9 is a pretty safe bet and once it is running a mishap is a certainty.

If you deploy your squad of 5 at maximum coherency distance you can cover an oval area 25" x 37" so two squads of 5 can cover will make a footprint 50" x 37". That puts the Tau well out of range of the assets you are protecting.

I'd be keen to bunker up tho', particularly with one of those new twin Quad Lascannon jobs!

Do you even read. Tau only have a 36" threat range. In 2 deployments he can't even really shoot at you at all, or barely. Even in 2 turns he will be hard pressed to wipe out an army 36" outside of his shooting range.

Let's see. +3,+3 on turn 2-3 reserves. It will be hard for 3 atleast one of 3 units to not come on turn 2.

The Op should deploy out of Tau's 36" range of death since dark angels can't out shoot Tau and will not be able to march across the board anyway. His best bet is to take weapons over 36" which is not many. In all honestly it's a bad match up. Suggesting to ally up only proves how bad a match up it is. Personally I don't like taking allies and rather try to work within my codex.

If he deploys outside of the bulk of the Tau army he is not going to lose huge chunks of his army. If the pathfinders get too close kill them. Other than that staying out of 36" is actually a viable tactic. It 's been done to me 3x which is why I decided to field more range outside of 36" for just that reason.

Heck my first army is Tau and I been playing them since they been out. The hardest 6th edition games I've fought is games with half the army off the board since I couldn't shoot them and the other half is out of range. I had to change my list up to deal with people doing that. However most Tau list deals with reserve list, but still don't worry about the 36" range issue.

If he deploys smartly he can still last 2 turns of shooting. His issue is the deep striking unit unless I missed something. It woul help if I actually knew the exact Tau list he is facing. I do not so I have to assume it's like most of the Tau list I see here.

It's a sound tactic that actualy works. I seen it work against others and I seen it won tournaments. It's sound.


Now you making the greyknights easier to kill. Awesome! You missing the point if the Tau player plans on deep striking his primary targets will be the greyknights. A squad of 10 greyknights roughly equal 18 darkangels. Which means an even beetr target. One riptide and one squad of pathfinders can kill at least 3 greyknights. What range shooting the Tau player has that can go beyond 36" can easily kill 2 5 man squads. Which would negate your bubble anyway. Also the fact I do not have to deep strike in the bubble doesn't stop 24" weapons from dealing plasma death. You may stop the rapid fire if you pass your test or not wiped from the board. Even so he is still dishing out a lot of plasma shots. It's not as sound as you think it is.

It remind me when I played last codex daemons vs greyknights. If I went first my flamers will kill his knights before the bubble goes up. If I go second I deep strike out side his bubble and kill off all his bubble greyknights with battle cannon shots, strength 5 ap 3 shots, strength 8 ap 1 ahots, and a ton of strength 4 ap 4 shots. Than the following turn I deep strike myh flammers who does not have to worry about the bubble anymore and roast me some knights. After tearing up serval knight armies who thought they can beat the mono tzeentch army with the Masque due to their warp defenses was sadly mistaken. Heck it's darn laughable. However the closest game I had was due to scout moves and he tried to spread his army out making it hard to deep strike. However it meant for all his units to pass warp quake which all didn't and I lost some to mishap, but that was due to deep striking on my own units and going off the table edge. Which was 2 units one being Fateweaver.

The anti deep strike ability if a good melta defense, but it doesn't stop deep striking at all. Any smart player will laugh at the gimmick and play around it. Also love if you cast it you can't use your force weapons or use hammerhand in that turn you used it. It's helpful, but it really doesn't protect against a deepstriking unit with a 24" range. Also it just turn said unit into a big target to get killed, before turn 2.

Another ideal is to run the landraiders with the strength 6 ap 3 flamers and for a lot of points make it re roll pen results. That would be a good vehicle to use, maybe 2. Only fusions and railguns from hammerheads would be an issue. Two assault type squads inside wouldn't be a bad ideal either.

[chicop76]

Does Warp Quake work if the unit is in a transport?

I don't think it does. The power is on the unit and not the tank. It would be in the faq for units with aura effects inside vehicles. The reason I think no is due to the unit is not really on the board while it is in the vehicle. Than again it probably does since some aura effects work while inside vehicles.

Taking a razorback with a 5 man squad that is armed with a heavy bolter and psy ammo is not a bad ideal. Again any tau player in their right mind wil heavly target that unit if he intends to deep stike. Sadly enough if he is running heavy plasma he oesn't have to really deep strike. Deep striking makes more sense with fusion guns really. Although he is going for the double tap.

[chicop76]

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/07/40k-dont-fear-space-commies.html?m=1

Read the above article. It actually points out some of the stuff I been pointing out. Like staying out of 30-36 and dealing instant death.

[DarkLink]

They do but in taking that they are sacrificing something else, so if nothing else you are forcing him to spend his points on an otherwise less than useful upgrade.
Even if he does take the upgrade you are still diluting his fire power by spreading it across a number of units

The beauty with Space Marines is they can instantly double the number of units they have at deployment and with the new combat squad rule you don't lose out on you transports.

Putting all his points into one unit, he'd be stupid not to take a couple,even with the other options available. And you might get the drop on him in one game with combat squads, but if he's a decent player he'll learn his lesson pretty quickly.