News from Enter the Citadel

[eldargal]

Just got home from this event and it was pretty damn good. Got to chat with Jes Goodwin, Jervis Johnson, Phil Kelly, Kevin Chin & several other BL & FW guys. Sat in on their Designing Apocalypse & Warhammer Feedback sessions where they talked about the subject and we got to field questions to them afterwards.

Some blitherings:

Apoc is seen by the GW studio as a toolkit for massive games rather than a rigid framework, leaning towards making big games easier to organise and play rather than sticking to the background setting. The Allies matrix in the 40k rulebook with "Come the Apocalypse" is the truth; in Apoc you can ally with whichever faction you like. Formations are in there to give players a direction to go for with their collection: if you've got two Predators, pick up the Apoc book and are unsure about what models to get next (I'm paraphrasing here and I didn't pick up the Apoc book myself today) then leafing through the Imperial formations you can pick up one more Predator and get bonus rules for the 3x Predator formation, whatever it's called. Formations don't have points values as they're not units in the same vein as the core rulebook & codices, they're mainly there to provide bonus rules if you have groups of specific models and make things more interesting. The guys got the point across that if you don't like a particular rule you can just leave it out; if you don't need a particular tool in your toolkit you're not obliged to use it. Master Of Disaster which originally had a Viking helmet to pass around each turn to identify the Master) is wrecking massive chunks of table? Don't use it. Finest Hour? Optional. It's all there to be used as we see fit, it's even less of a tourney focused expansion and is basically a guide on arranging and playing oversize games with mates.

War Zone books for Apoc will be more like mini-Imperial Armour books than supplements and will include new scenarios, unit datasheets, rules & historic background, orders of battle and timeline maps. The studio will use them to pick significant battles from the history of 40k (like the Battles For Armageddon) and flesh them out in detail along with rulesets for players to enact them.

SistersOfBattleNerd, I didn't forget you: SISTERS OF BATTLE/BLACK TEMPLARS will get attention and are not in line to be dropped at this time. I spoke to Jervis Johnson and asked him myself and he said "Every army is getting worked on and will be updated in time." But obviously in true GW fashion he couldn't say when or if it would be via codex or supp. Personally I believe codices will be used when I consider what a supplement is for, but that's just me.

I was talking to Jes Goodwin about how much I love the design of Wraithguard & Wraithblades when he actually beat me to the next thing I was about to ask "Are you about to ask about those jetbike models like the last guys did?" Ha. Apparently Jes was given a choice to make: either go with new Wraithguard/Blades into production OR the new jetbike model. Jes thought that the Wraiths brought more options to the table and were more valuable as a brand new unit choice, while the jetbikes already have an existing model and didn't bring anything new. As much as I'm sick of the current jetbike model I do think that Jes made the right call.

Also Eldar related: I asked Jes about another artbook of his Eldar work and he replied that he had enough material to fill a book each for DE & CE (and based on the three folders that he had with him alone I believe him) and it has been discussed but ultimately it is down to the Black Library to make this happen. I then wandered off to find the BL stand and accosted them, demanding to know where these books were. The chap was pretty open about it and said that the publishing arm of GW had formed two new units to work with the normal BL staff; GW Digital & BL Direct. The Digital arm are getting into gear with digital online publishing, hence the emergence of codices outside of iTunes, and the Direct team will be handling specialist work such as art books, extremely limited runs, collector's editions, stuff like that. I'll be speaking to the guy soon to get more info as he said that he'll speak to some people about it so there is hope yet.

Jervis and Phil were interested in what people wanted, a focus on codices or supplements as the same guys do work on both. The was one chap who gave them a "I don't care about new codices, I just want more interesting ways of using my forces" case for supplements but that smacked of "I'm alright so sod those poor guys with old books" and he seemed, thankfully, to be the minority. Like the Popular Front Of Judea, if you know what I'm talking about. I got the impression that GW are sticking to the current monthly releases so supplement work shouldn't stop 40k codices from being released but may impact their release order depending on who is working on what and when.

All in all it was a pretty good day. I'll update with more if anything comes to mind and if anyone else who was there has anything to add then please feel free :)

EDIT: Saw a few 'Cron Tesseract Vaults. When they're open they are MASSIVE. Like a foot square at least. Mad.
Very interesting overall, glad to see them stick with their position on Apocalypse and not try and dumb it down to appeals to tourney types.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Me gusta.

[magickbk]

Interesting that this implies that Jes makes a decision on certain new units based on sort-of-sensible reasoning rather than some suit crunching some numbers on what they think will sell more(not that this couldn't happen also).

[Mr Mystery]

The whole 'faceless suits' thing is pretty much an interwebular invention.

Every time someone talks to the Studio staff, it's pretty clear it's imagination driven. Books get priority when someone has a passionate idea for it. Models follow 'rule of cool' as a major influence.

Take Dreadfleet. That was somebody's baby, and they championed it!

[Subexarch]

Take Dreadfleet. That was somebody's baby, and they championed it!

Poor sods.

[Gir]

Poor sods.

Which is sad, as it's such a fun game.

[Lexington]

From over yonder at The Responsible One's (http://the-responsible-one.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/enter-citadel-questions-from-bell-of.html):


"Is there a possibility we will see Howling Banshees fixed in an errata as currently they are comprehensively inferior to Striking Scorpions even with being cheaper. Lack of plasma grenades, reliant on unreliable buffs from a unit that can't join them to inflict wounds an inferior Mask and and inferior Acrobatic."

Context for those not obsessed with rules: Banshees don't have assault grenades, but wargear that penalises their opponent's initiative, to a minimum of one. While this will often mean they are then striking simultaneously when assaulting into cover, there is a risk of them being badly mauled by the counter strikes.

The discussion: Assault grenades and assault units are a difficult point. You can't just give absolutely every unit grenades, because at that point, why would you have a rule to penalise assaulting into cover? There needed to be distinctions between Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions, otherwise everyone would be taking Banshees and the Scorpions would be being decried as useless. Phil does love Eldar and its a careful design line to not to make them The Best At Everything Ever. He still uses Banshees in his own army.

We also had a short conversation about making Banshees more effective. I couldn't recall if your initiative is still penalised if you're charging a unit that is already engaged with someone else (that may be a way to bypass the lack of grenades). The Dark Eldar also have a piece of wargear that bestows assault grenades onto the unit they've joined - while allying isn't to everyone's taste, a Dark Eldar independent character with this kit joining the Banshees could create an effective, punchy unit.
That's...well, it's too bad. It's also not a very good answer - like the original Q says, Banshees are strictly inferior to Scorpions under any useful analysis of the game. It's silly to fret about a world where Scorpions are never chosen over Banshees when they've just released a Codex that ensures the exact opposite. It's hard to believe that this isn't supremely obvious to a group of guys who get paid to think about things like this.

[doogansquest]

From over yonder at The Responsible One's (http://the-responsible-one.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/enter-citadel-questions-from-bell-of.html):


That's...well, it's too bad. It's also not a very good answer - like the original Q says, Banshees are strictly inferior to Scorpions under any useful analysis of the game. It's silly to fret about a world where Scorpions are never chosen over Banshees when they've just released a Codex that ensures the exact opposite. It's hard to believe that this isn't supremely obvious to a group of guys who get paid to think about things like this.

People do play Banshees, just differently. They are used as a counter-assault unit, and are extremely effective that way.

People need to stop wanting every assault unit to be Assault Marines in terms of their brainless functionality. Also, 99% of the players haven't even tried them. They just read the internet whining and joined in because it's easier than thinking.

[eldargal]

People do play Banshees, just differently. They are used as a counter-assault unit, and are extremely effective that way.
No they aren't. Scorpions are still superior, for losing on average a fraction of a wound inflicted against power armour (.4 or .5) and slightly higher cost they can charge into cover and are much more durable. They don't drop the I of the enemy it is true but then if Banshees charge into cover or get charged that doesn't matter anyway. Banshees are terrible, I don't want it to be true, I championed them all through 5th edition when people said they were bad and they weren't. But now they are.

I have used Banshees extensively to test them and these are what happen:
a) They charge an enemy in the open, kill a few then get bogged down in a prolonged assault and whittled away due to low S and unreliable access to once reliable buffs. Scorpions at S4 are more reliable.
b) They charge an enemy in cover, drop to I1 and get slaughtered. Scorpions have grenades so don't drop to I1
c) While waiting to counter charge (who spends nearly 200 points on a unit to sit around on the off chance they can counter charge something in the open and be useful by the way?) they get shot to pieces because they are only T3 4+ and they can't sit in a vehicle or they have to get out and wait a turn before counter charging.

The I debuff synergises nicely in theory but you can get the same effect for much less points with an Autarch who will actually kill things and provide other useful effects.

There is absolutely no point in fielding Banshees. At all. Anything they can do Scorpions can do better.

As Lexington says it is a very poor answer. Scorpions get a bunch of useful abilities, higher S, more attacks and a better armour save. They are supposed to be goog ad tying up hordes and chomping through them. They do that well. Banshees are supposed to be the glass cannon, ideal at smashing armoured units but requiring careful use. As it stands they do not do that effectively. The would differential between Banshees and Scorpions in ideal circumstances is negligible but Scorpions bring more to the table and won't be penalised for charging a unit in cover.

I'm really disappointed, Banshees are my absolute favourite unit in 40k and I want to use them but there is no point in wasting the points on them.

[theresponsibleone]

It's silly to fret about a world where Scorpions are never chosen over Banshees when they've just released a Codex that ensures the exact opposite. It's hard to believe that this isn't supremely obvious to a group of guys who get paid to think about things like this.

Oh, come on Lexington. You've got a situation where they've got 37 different units, with a whole bunch of new ones, to check for internal and external balance in a 12 to 18 month development cycle. They are human, and they're going to make mistakes from time to time.

The conversation with Phil was very positive in terms of tone - he was definitely listening and taking points on board, and he gave the impression that he was aware of pretty much every issue I raised. GW employees are never going to turn to someone they've never met before, who is going to be posting what they say to the internet and say "yeah, that unit sucks" or anything of the sort because there is a huge potential for it being taken and written out of context and passed around the entire gaming community.

I don't think they're allowed to talk about upcoming FAQs, either. I think my first question for Games Day is likely to be around how much an FAQ is allowed to fix for balance as opposed to 'factual' errors or unclear wording.

(And thanks for the link!)

[theresponsibleone]

I have used Banshees extensively to test them and these are what happen:


Off topic, but any ideas for a fix? Should the Mask give 'assault grenades'? Or is something more fundamental needed?

[eldargal]

Well there are two problems with Banshees, one is structural in that they aren't set up to be able to excel at their role. The fix for that would be quite complex. The other problem is that they can't be a viable assault unit regardless of their anti-armour role, that is somewhat easier. Let masks ignore defensive terrain or drop enemies to a minimum if I0 rather than I1, give them plasma grenades and they will at least be useful even if they will probably need a Farseer with them as in 5th edition. Changing Acrobatic to give a boost that is actually useful would help too, a 5++ save for example like the Wych dodge but not quite as good. Or some kind of Overwatch disruption. In terms of what could be FAQed in the mask ignoring defensive terrain and/or plasma grenades would be the best bet.

I just want to pint out again hat I loath the kind of constant whining that goes on about units and whatnot in this hobby and I have a strong incentive to like Banshees, but in this case I believe they are a genuinely underpowered choice.

[Mr.Church]

While Eldargal and I can argue about sisters all day. I have to agree here. I own 20 some odd Banshees and love the unit but they just don't do anything that other units don't do better. It's not that their a sucky unit they just have no functuality.

I am however unhappy with the team's answer for them. To me it just sounded like the only reason they got shafted is because to make their terrain rules valid...someone had to be.

[eldargal]

you actually debate rather than just scream "ERMAGAHD GW R SQUAT TEH SOB FOR REEZONS NO MATTAH WOT!!!1" so I appreciate that even if we disagree.:)

Yep, I use the models as counts as Scorpions now, best thing to do with them. Makes me sad.:(

[Dimitrios]

you actually debate rather than just scream "ERMAGAHD GW R SQUAT TEH SOB FOR REEZONS NO MATTAH WOT!!!1" so I appreciate that even if we disagree.:)

Yep, I use the models as counts as Scorpions now, best thing to do with them. Makes me sad.:(

You really need to stop this reasoned debate... You're putting across valid points, in a good way and they are well thought through. This is the interwebz damnit.... If this place starts to become civilized and non confrontational... well what else will be have to pass our time?

[Ankhalagon]

Sisters made of plastik would be......interesting....for me......
If not....HH/40k Night Lords.

[Lexington]

Oh, come on Lexington. You've got a situation where they've got 37 different units, with a whole bunch of new ones, to check for internal and external balance in a 12 to 18 month development cycle. They are human, and they're going to make mistakes from time to time.
The mistake I can understand; it's the specific response that bugs me. The idea that giving assault grenades to Banshees would make them superior to Scorpions or overpower the Eldar overall is just silly. I appreciate that Phil K. can't and won't just say "yep, unit's crap, sorry, maybe we'll errata that one" in the middle of a big public event, but I was hoping for a response that explained the design decision a little better.

[Mr Dark]

I wouldn't mind following that type of design decision and do something like making the mask stun units being charged and not allow Overwatch fire. Even without grenades they would then have a function. There are a lot of different ways Eldar have to deal with units in cover, and that would still make Scorpions the heavy assault unit. With the speed and lighter armour it would give a nice boost to the banshees, and would make them the first strike unit that could be paired with slower heavier units. It would give them a definite role within the army that they do not have now. It's funny how simple things seem so obvious, and yet aren't to the designers in their little vacuum.

[theresponsibleone]

I know, I know, I'm slack and type slow.

Here's my write up of the Eldar Q&A. (At least, the second part of it. Blasted roadworks.)

http://the-responsible-one.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/enter-citadel-sons-of-khaine-developing.html

Sorry to just link it, but there's a lot of text. I know some has already been mentioned elsewhere on BoLS, but other bits haven't, so hope y'all find something useful.

[Deadlift]

Just finished reading your blog, interesting and enjoyable read. I suspected Mat Ward had a hand with some of the Eldar codex. I enjoy both Ward and Kelly's writing very much and the insight you have given about uncredited writers pitching in is new to me. Thanks and look forward to reading more.

[-Tom-]

I know, I know, I'm slack and type slow.

Here's my write up of the Eldar Q&A. (At least, the second part of it. Blasted roadworks.)

http://the-responsible-one.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/enter-citadel-sons-of-khaine-developing.html

Sorry to just link it, but there's a lot of text. I know some has already been mentioned elsewhere on BoLS, but other bits haven't, so hope y'all find something useful.

Just FYI, that question about whether they considered having 4 legs on the wraithknight was very early on, if not the first question, after the pre-prepped ones on the screen, so you missed very little.

[a_musckrat]

I thought that Banshees had power swords and scorpions have chainswords, so despite not having assault grenades shouldn't banshees still be comparable at killing marine equivalent units?

[Roadkill Zombie]

Well they sort of are. The problem seems to be that without those grenades the Howling Banshees and the enemy warriors are all striking at the same time. One of the advantages to striking first in the past was always that you could cause some casualties and the return attacks wouldn't hurt you as much.

Now that they will strike at the same time, the Howling Banshee's will get mauled by the enemy unit. They won't be able to survive the return attacks near as well as if they struck first and that will cripple the Howling Banshees combat capability so much that they won't be able to do much else if they live through the first combat. At close to 200 points, that just doesn't seem worth it.

So the only option to get them grenades is to ally with some other force and have someone that confers assult grenades to the unit join them. The problem with that is, if you decide to do it, the squad then doesn't run as far because they will lose Acrobatic, and they will also lose Battle Focus because the Ally doesn't have either of those. All in all, terrible options really. You can get better results out of Striking Scorpions really. And that saddens me because Howling Banshees are by far my most favorite Aspect Warriors and the best looking models in the Eldar range in my humble opinion.

I'm going to start using mine as Harlequins I think. I never did like the clown outfits the Harlequins had, and I can just use the excuse that the Hallucinogen Grenades make the enemy percieve them as Howling Banshee's so that's why they look like that.

[eldargal]

I thought that Banshees had power swords and scorpions have chainswords, so despite not having assault grenades shouldn't banshees still be comparable at killing marine equivalent units?

With the scorpions greater number of attacks and higher S the difference under ideal circumstances is quite small and unlike Banshees Scorpions work optimally if they charge into terrain. Scorpions also lose fewer troops to Overwatch and return attacks. Factor in everything else and even with the higher points cost Scorpions are just plain better to the point there is no point taking Banshees. Especially since their useful I debuff can be acquired through a much cheaper Autarch if you really want it.

[Stone Edwards]

I feel like when people are talking about the banshees they are playing on game boards just completely covered in terrain where it is absolutely impossible to assault a unit out in the open. Personally I think they shouldn't be given grenades as I agree with Phil saying that there is no point the the penalty if all assault units have grenades anyway. However you are all right about Scorps being better in basically every way, I think that adding a negates overwatch rule would make them much more viable and give them a different role from other Eldar assault units.

[eldargal]

I'd have more sympathy for that argument if they hadn't given them to Storm Guardians.

[Stone Edwards]

I'd have more sympathy for that argument if they hadn't given them to Storm Guardians.

Eh no one cares about Storm Guardians :p

[eldargal]

Exactly. So if they want to keep plasma grenades fairly rare (fair enough) don't give them to sodding Storm Guardians, give them to a dedicated assault unit who will use them.

[Stone Edwards]

Exactly. So if they want to keep plasma grenades fairly rare (fair enough) don't give them to sodding Storm Guardians, give them to a dedicated assault unit who will use them.

Well also to me fluff wise it makes sense that Storm Guardians have grenades. You just imagine it being part of the kit they grab. Where as Banshees I just can't picture actually using a grenade. However it would make perfect sense that acrobatic units could charge through cover with no penalty but then we get back to every unit ignoring charging through cover so I don't know, can't really win. They do need something though and as I said before negating overwatch would be my preference, maybe with a dodge type cover save thrown in with acrobatics for good measure.

[eldargal]

Masks ignoring defensive terrain would be fine in lieu of grenades.

[Defenestratus]

With the scorpions greater number of attacks and higher S the difference under ideal circumstances is quite small and unlike Banshees Scorpions work optimally if they charge into terrain. Scorpions also lose fewer troops to Overwatch and return attacks. Factor in everything else and even with the higher points cost Scorpions are just plain better to the point there is no point taking Banshees. Especially since their useful I debuff can be acquired through a much cheaper Autarch if you really want it.

Not to pick nits, but technically banshees and scorpions have the same number of attacks - 3 on the charge. Its just that the mandihat is a "autohit s3" attack @ I10.

[eldargal]

3 each on the charge yes, plus one more S3 hit from the Mandiblaster. That's more attacks.:)

[Gleipnir]

Personally, think the Mask should force an automatic Pinning check on any unit charged(regardless of any unsaved wounds), unit fails and defensive terrain is ignored as per normal, Fearless units and others able to ignore the effects of pinning, would still receive initiative penalty.

[Demonus]

I feel like when people are talking about the banshees they are playing on game boards just completely covered in terrain where it is absolutely impossible to assault a unit out in the open. Personally I think they shouldn't be given grenades as I agree with Phil saying that there is no point the the penalty if all assault units have grenades anyway. However you are all right about Scorps being better in basically every way, I think that adding a negates overwatch rule would make them much more viable and give them a different role from other Eldar assault units.

I was thinking the same thing, even though our games are usually "terrain heavy", there are still plenty of times units are out in the open and can be charged. I have no issue with Banshees not getting grenades, however I do think their mask should negate over watch on the turn they charge. Personally I dont use Banshees as I dont care for the model, and only own about 7 or so of them. Coupled with the fact that I dont play a very assault oriented Eldar force.

[Mr Mystery]

I was thinking the same thing, even though our games are usually "terrain heavy", there are still plenty of times units are out in the open and can be charged. I have no issue with Banshees not getting grenades, however I do think their mask should negate over watch on the turn they charge. Personally I dont use Banshees as I dont care for the model, and only own about 7 or so of them. Coupled with the fact that I dont play a very assault oriented Eldar force.

Thing is Banshees aren't the sort of unit that does terribly well outside of combat. T3 and 4+ isn't all that ace!

[Stone Edwards]

Thing is Banshees aren't the sort of unit that does terribly well outside of combat. T3 and 4+ isn't all that ace!

Well the same can be said about most of the Eldar infantry then :p.

[-Tom-]

I'd have more sympathy for that argument if they hadn't given them to Storm Guardians.

With the question of 'anything you wish you could have dropped from the codex' I think there was a bit of contemplating Storm Guardians. IIRC, Phil was of the opinion that they could have been left to fall by the wayside, except that the way the codex is written it has options to be representative of the major craft worlds, with more guardians for Ulthwe, and so there was still a niche for them.

Not that this helps with the issue of why they have assault grenades and banshees still just aren't that good at what they're mean to *do* as aspect warriors, but just an aside...

[Roadkill Zombie]

I feel like when people are talking about the banshees they are playing on game boards just completely covered in terrain where it is absolutely impossible to assault a unit out in the open. Personally I think they shouldn't be given grenades as I agree with Phil saying that there is no point the the penalty if all assault units have grenades anyway. However you are all right about Scorps being better in basically every way, I think that adding a negates overwatch rule would make them much more viable and give them a different role from other Eldar assault units.

Yeah, there are two very viable reasons why people refer to Banshees always assulting into cover.

1) Because often times people will put their objectives in cover and put a unit on that objective to hold it for the last turn or two of a game. Often it can be near impossible to dig that unit out of cover with any sort of shooting. For this reason, you need a close combat unit that can go in and dig them out. Howling Banshees are one unit that is made for close assult and should be able to do that job effectively.

2) Because after the assult is over and the Banshees are left as the only unit standing, the last place you would want them to be is standing around out in the open during your opponents turn because as previously stated, they have a toughness 3 with a 4+ saving throw. That cover they can get from assulting into cover will help them survive better than standing around in the open would ever do.

So, as you can see, the entire issue with cover is a very valid reason as to why GW messed up terribly with the Howling Banshee mask. Especially considering the way it used to work prior to the new codex being released. If they would have left it as that incarnation then Banshee's would have been fine.

Grenades wouldn't even be an issue then.

[theresponsibleone]

Just FYI, that question about whether they considered having 4 legs on the wraithknight was very early on, if not the first question, after the pre-prepped ones on the screen, so you missed very little.

Well, that's good news. We were stressing a lot while we were running late and trying to get there!

[Dragannia]

3 each on the charge yes, plus one more S3 hit from the Mandiblaster. That's more attacks.:)

Keep in mind that its ONLY for those in base to base. You're very, very rarely going to get a Str 3 hit from each of the Scorpions.

[Stone Edwards]

Keep in mind that its ONLY for those in base to base. You're very, very rarely going to get a Str 3 hit from each of the Scorpions.

Ya know regardless this thread shouldn't be about Banshees and should really be about the enter the citadel news. That's awesome that they at least dropped a hint about sisters of battle, more so than Eldar I have always wanted a SoB army and this gives me hope that I may be able to start one down the line. Yes I know I could start one currently but seriously all metal models + no codex doesn't make it easy.

[DarkLink]

You won't usually get a hit from all the Scorpions, but five or six free Str 3 hits aren't a bad thing.


No they aren't. Scorpions are still superior

I think even Reecius, who's generally pretty dedicated to the idea that even bad units can be good if used skillfully, has kind of given up on Banshees. I'll have to ask him next time I play him, I know he's tried them out a couple of times.


With the question of 'anything you wish you could have dropped from the codex' I think there was a bit of contemplating Storm Guardians. IIRC, Phil was of the opinion that they could have been left to fall by the wayside, except that the way the codex is written it has options to be representative of the major craft worlds, with more guardians for Ulthwe, and so there was still a niche for them.


What I don't get is why couldn't he just let a regular Guardian squad take special weapons and trade their catapults for pistol and ccws.

Same thing with Wraithnouns, actually. As they stand, Wraithguard/blades aren't bad, but they're not that great. They have some specific roles they can fill, but I don't think they'll be that common in top competitive lists. Just by allowing you to mix and match options, they instantly would have become a solid unit. Throw in a couple flamers or cannons into an assault unit, or just generally be able to mix up the weapons, and they'd be very good. As it stands, they're just kind of mediocre for how much you pay. All flamers won't work, because it's just too expensive. All cc won't be competitive, because you don't get enough attacks, they're too slow in general, and they don't have any shooting. And the wraithcannons are good, but they're too easy to tie up in assault. And 5 Wraithguard are too expensive to just leave sitting on an objective. They're just a little too inflexible to have a good role to fill.