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Sitnam
11-16-2009, 12:34 AM
I had a thought about the Emperor the other idea, mostly pertaining to Sisters of Battle fluff. In the fluff and the game, the SOB have Acts of Faith, which seem to be miraculous events that assist the Sisters in winning battles. Then we have Living Saints, such as Celestine, who fight for the Emperor with supernatural powers. Now my question is, what do these things come from? Is the Emperor a strong enough warp entity to bless his most sacred warriors in battle, and is he powerful enough to make his own form of Daemon Prince through Living Saints?

Lerra
11-16-2009, 12:49 AM
I'd say yes. The Emperor is at least on par with a Chaos God for strength in the warp. His physical body is all that is holding him back from being a fully fledged God.

Just_Me
11-16-2009, 01:22 AM
That is precisely what the Thorians believe, and I am inclined to think they are correct...

Melissia
11-16-2009, 06:29 AM
The Living Saints are pretty much explicitly stated to be living manifestations of the Emperor's will.

Nabterayl
11-16-2009, 12:46 PM
The other possibility is that the Warp is not the only source of supernatural power in the universe. The Sororitas are the most visible example of the power of "faith" (wolf tail talismans being another). It could just be a fact of the 40K universe that "faith" really is its own font of power. Personally I enjoy the ambiguity.

Melissia
11-16-2009, 12:52 PM
From my memory, the Emperor's power is somehow much more pure than the average psyker's regardless-- as are the powers of the Acts of Faith. The Emperor's soul, if you believe the shaman theory, came from pure souls of ancient psykers whom were able to walk amongst the Warp unharmed, and draw upon psychic or psychic-like powers without disturbing the Warp.

Duke
11-16-2009, 01:44 PM
I like the idea that Living Saints are nothing more than the Emperors Daemon Princes. LOL

Duke

Melissia
11-16-2009, 04:55 PM
Which is really untrue. Living Saints are exactly that, living. Daemons are not. To explain from my recollections... Living Saints exist primarily in the Materium, their powers are not psychic in nature nor warp-based (the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition both have done deep studies on the few Living Saints that appear), and they still have a human mind, human comprehension, albeit raised to saintly levels, but human nonetheless. Daemons, however, exist primarily in thw warp, and find it difficult to manifest in the materium; their powers are, of course, psychic and/or warp-based, especially with mutation, and their minds are warped to match their daemonic cousins.

If the Living Saints really are the Emperor's equivalent to Daemon Princes, then they are so far removed that they truly deserve the different name.

Just_Me
11-16-2009, 05:15 PM
The analogy is apt only insofar as Daemon Princes are invested with a small portion or their patron’s power, and living saints are (probably) humans invested with a small portion of the Emperor’s power (at least according to the Thorian hypothesis). However, beyond these broad parallels the similarities end, because the patrons of a Daemon Prince are wholly things of the Immaterium the gift of their power makes a Daemon Prince a thing of the Warp as well. Living saints on the other hand draw their powers directly from the Emperor himself (again, according the Thorian ideas) while the essence of that power remains the Emperor’s, so while they function at a higher level their basic nature is not altered by it.

Psychosplodge
11-16-2009, 05:20 PM
In the original rouge trader books, wasn't there a stat line for descendents of the emperor?, couldn't this be the reality of the living saints?

DarkLink
11-16-2009, 05:22 PM
Which is really untrue. Living Saints are exactly that, living. Daemons are not. To explain from my recollections... Living Saints exist primarily in the Materium, their powers are not psychic in nature nor warp-based (the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition both have done deep studies on the few Living Saints that appear), and they still have a human mind, human comprehension, albeit raised to saintly levels, but human nonetheless. Daemons, however, exist primarily in thw warp, and find it difficult to manifest in the materium; their powers are, of course, psychic and/or warp-based, especially with mutation, and their minds are warped to match their daemonic cousins.

If the Living Saints really are the Emperor's equivalent to Daemon Princes, then they are so far removed that they truly deserve the different name.


The analogy is apt only insofar as Daemon Princes are invested with a small portion or their patron’s power, and living saints are (probably) humans invested with a small portion of the Emperor’s power (at least according to the Thorian hypothesis). However, beyond these broad parallels the similarities end, because the patrons of a Daemon Prince are wholly things of the Immaterium the gift of their power makes a Daemon Prince a thing of the Warp as well. Living saints on the other hand draw their powers directly from the Emperor himself (again, according the Thorian ideas) while the essence of that power remains the Emperor’s, so while they function at a higher level their basic nature is not altered by it.

I think that's why he added the LOL to the end of the statement ;)

Melissia
11-16-2009, 05:29 PM
Jokes never stopped anyone from responding to them seriously-- after all they sometimes bring up interesting points.

Just_Me
11-16-2009, 05:52 PM
In the original rouge trader books, wasn't there a stat line for descendents of the emperor?, couldn't this be the reality of the living saints?

The Sensei, yes, they have been pretty much phased out of the lore at this point. One could infer that Living Saints can channel the power of the Emperor and be Living Saints because they are distantly descended from the Emperor. It is certainly an interesting idea, but it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated idea…

Psychosplodge
11-16-2009, 06:03 PM
I know, just felt like adding to the conspiricies...

Just_Me
11-16-2009, 06:21 PM
I know, just felt like adding to the conspiricies...

In that case, by all means continue... :p

imperialsavant
11-16-2009, 07:37 PM
In the original rouge trader books, wasn't there a stat line for descendents of the emperor?, couldn't this be the reality of the living saints?

:confused: I thought the Primachs were the only direct decendants of the Emperor.
My belief as a Puritan Inquisitor (probably Thorian! lol) is that Living Saints are particularly Holy people who are filled with Faith & the Emperors blessings that elevate them above normal mortals.

Grotzooka
11-16-2009, 08:27 PM
:confused: I thought the Primachs were the only direct decendants of the Emperor.

The Primarchs aren't even direct decendents in that sense. They have bits of the Emperor's genetics in them, but they were made, not born.

Just_Me
11-16-2009, 08:39 PM
:confused: I thought the Primachs were the only direct decendants of the Emperor.

Nope, they were genetically engineered loosely using the Emperor's genetic code as a base. They are his "sons" in spirit, but, after all of the aggressive genetic re-engineering, not in biological terms.

In the older fluff it implied that, during his fifty millennia of life, the Emperor fathered a number of offspring whose lines (diluted by countless generations) still live on today.


My belief as a Puritan Inquisitor (probably Thorian! lol) is that Living Saints are particularly Holy people who are filled with Faith & the Emperors blessings that elevate them above normal mortals

In a nutshell the Thorians believe that the Emperor, while no longer able to take a direct hand, is still very much interested and active in human affairs. To this end he uses the Saints (notably Sebastian Thor from whom they derive their name) as avatars or vessels to act on his behalf, and is able to act through them by investing them with a portion of his awesome power and strength of will. For the most part the Thorians look for ways to induce, or evidence of, the Emperor's resurrection, though there are innumerable different theories on what form that resurrection will take.

Duke
11-17-2009, 01:01 PM
I think that's why he added the LOL to the end of the statement ;)

Exactley, Thanks DL