Displacer Field

[Brian Wesley]

OK wise sages of the rules....

What happens if a DA IC is close to the edge of the board and is forced to take a 3++ displacer field safe and displaces off the board?

[Sly]

The game ends.
Heh.
Because there are no rules to cover the result. It's not a voluntary movement, so it's not prevented by the rules, but nothing says what the result would be.

[Tynskel]

you move the unit the maximum possible. There are plenty of rules for these. You cannot leave the board unless it is explicitly stated. So, for morale, you can leave the board, flyers (as long as they didn't enter the board the same turn) may leave the board.

Otherwise, you cannot leave. You would just move the maximum possible.

[DarkLink]

You cannot voluntarily leave the board. There are cases in which non-voluntary movement can or cannot leave the board. In all the cases where you can leave the board, the unit is destroyed, with the possible exception of deep striking, in which case you receive special protection due to the Mishap table.

Since the most relevant example that comes to mind is Deep Strike scattering, the most reasonable conclusion is that you would scatter off the board and die, since you don't receive any protection by rolling on the Mishap table.

[Magpie]

I'd say the provision in the rule that tells you to shorten the scatter to avoid impassable terrain etc would indicate that the same thing applies to the board edge.

Technically a unit that is falling back doesn't actually leave the board and become destroyed, all they have to do is come into contact with the edge, an important distinction if your fall back move is only sufficient to bring you up to the board and not off it. This only applies to falling back however, any good order unit can come into contact with the table edge without concern.

Flyers and Deep Strikers are the only things that actually leave the board as a movement action that I can think of off the top of my head and in both cases the leaving of the table does not cause its destruction.

[DarkLink]

But Drop Pods have a rule to reduce scatter which does not apply to the board edge.

[Brian Wesley]

I was thinking the drop pod rule of moving to avoid landing on impassible terrain is similar but also they can land off the table then they suffer deepstrike mishap

[Tynskel]

But Drop Pods have a rule to reduce scatter which does not apply to the board edge.

That's irrelevant to this case. There is an explicit rule being stated there. The only way for a codex rule to override the main rulebook is for the explicit statement of conflict.

The displacer field does not state the explicit conflict, and therefore, your models do not leave the board.

[Magpie]

But Drop Pods have a rule to reduce scatter which does not apply to the board edge.

True enough but as Tynskel says there is a specific case mentioned for that in the Deep Strike rules.

The main thing is that

"In all the cases where you can leave the board, the unit is destroyed," is actually not the case, in fact I can't think of anything that is destroyed when it leaves the board.

Falling Back only goes as far as the board edge and is a special case
Deep Strikers have the potential to be destroyed however that is a separate process, they are actually far more likely to end up back on the board either this turn or next turn.
There are provisions within the rules for units entering from reserves that cover units that cannot make it entirely onto the board to allow them to do so with restrictions and simply be deployed on the board edge.
Tank Shock says that the tank stops 1" away from the board edge if the shock move would take to to or off the board edge.

As there is no clear indication of how the displacer field is resolved when moving off the board the only choice is to take some guidance from what happens in other situations which in the main seems to be that the unit isn't destroyed but stops at or near the edge.

[DarkLink]

That's irrelevant to this case. There is an explicit rule being stated there. The only way for a codex rule to override the main rulebook is for the explicit statement of conflict.

Pretty sure it only says that you can't voluntarily leave the board. If this isn't a voluntary movement, like a Drop Pod scattering, then you can potentially leave the board.

[Magpie]

Pretty sure it only says that you can't voluntarily leave the board. If this isn't a voluntary movement, like a Drop Pod scattering, then you can potentially leave the board.

But every other involuntary action has something which keeps it in play, except for falling back.

[Tynskel]

Voluntary or not, ever instance dealing with the board edge and leaving is explicitly described.

[Magpie]

Voluntary or not, ever instance dealing with the board edge and leaving is explicitly described.

Sure but they seem to have missed that with this one, not surprising given the raft of FAQ that came out for this 'dex it does seem to be something of a rush job.

[Tynskel]

No, more that the someone one made an error that would have cost more munnies to fix it that it worth.

The displaced field does not state that units may be knocked off field, therefore, you cannot leave.

[Magpie]

Perhaps we will see yet more Dark Angel FAQs.

[Tynskel]

Perhaps, but I really do not see this as an issue.
You may not leave the board unless the rules state you may.

[G00dySmiley]

I am in the camp of you may not voluntarily leave the table however does not seem like this is a voluntary action. if a unit leaves teh table it is destroyed, RAW unless it has protection against this specifically listed in the rule then leaving the table means you are destroyed. if it gets faq'd either way then we will have an answer till then RAW unit is destroyed.

[Magpie]

Only fly in that ointment is that, as has been shown, there aren't any instances of a unit being destroyed when it leaves the table.

For something to be a Rule As Written, it kinda has to be written somewhere, which it ain't.

[G00dySmiley]

Only fly in that ointment is that, as has been shown, there aren't any instances of a unit being destroyed when it leaves the table.

For something to be a Rule As Written, it kinda has to be written somewhere, which it ain't.

i have only ever had it come up once in outr meta, but as the only place it adresses movement off the table outside deepstrikign and flyers is falling back, one of our rules gurus ultimatly ruled it raw they are destroyed but i can't make the same argument I would have probably called it the deep strike mishap table for fairness or a d6, but he had a compelling argument for it so we went with it (and he was the dark angels player btw)

[Kevlarshark]

I know previous editions rules are not a 100% guide to this sort of thing. But back when displacer fields were used more frequently when a model displaced off the board they counted as dead. Setting displacer traps with large blasts or crossing flamer templates (to deliberately force them off the board) was sometimes the best way to kill heavily wargeared characters.

[Tynskel]

gosh, you are talking about 4 editions ago...

Again, this is not explicitly stated. You cannot leave the board.

[G00dySmiley]

gosh, you are talking about 4 editions ago...

Again, this is not explicitly stated. You cannot leave the board.

cannot leave the board voluntarily . if you are using the save and it passes you have to scatter and my involuntarily end up off the table

i could also see it ruled as possibly the save failing if it scatters off the board when it gets faq'd as you would be scattering off the baord so the save result changes as the displacment move is not possible

[Tynskel]

no. the rule does not state you may leave the board.

You can only do what is stated. You simply just stop at the board edge, because the board edge is 'impassible terrain'.


oh gosh darn, the FAQ has already settled this:
Page 63 – Displacer field, rules.
Change the last sentence of the first paragraph to: “If the scatter causes the bearer to arrive on top, or within 1” of another model or impassable terrain, alter the scatter by the minimum amount possible (in any direction) to prevent this”.


http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?21435-Tynskel-s-Guide-to-Interpreting-Rules&p=194151&viewfull=1#post194151

[G00dySmiley]

no. the rule does not state you may leave the board.

You can only do what is stated. You simply just stop at the board edge, because the board edge is 'impassible terrain'.

the rule does not say you stop at a board edge

it says you scatter d6

pg 6 "scatter" mentions nothing about stopping at impassable terrain

also you are not volutarily leaving the board, you keep saying you cannot leave the board but there is no such rule sayign you can't leave the board jsut that you cannot choose to do so. In this instance the wargear is forcing you to do it, you are not choosing to do anything

I suppose you could argue also that the save cannot be taken within 6" of a board edge as choosing to take the save could result in being forced off the table. if you can't choose to leave the table you can't choose to take the save

[Tynskel]

Read the FAQ.
The FAQ is quite clear: you cannot go through impassible terrain, and the board edge is impassible terrain.

As I said earlier. This is a non-issue.
It has already been FAQed.


Opps, sorry, it is ERRATA.

[G00dySmiley]

Read the FAQ.
The FAQ is quite clear: you cannot go through impassible terrain, and the board edge is impassible terrain.

As I said earlier. This is a non-issue.
It has already been FAQed.


Opps, sorry, it is ERRATA.

just read the errata it saysminimum distance to avoit another model or impassible terrain

still nto sure where you are getting the board edge as impassable terrain becasue it is certainly not listed on page 90 as impassible terrain

[Tynskel]

read the description of the board edge.
It is impassible terrain.

Again. The rule states *nothing* about leaving the board. You cannot leave the board unless stated otherwise.

The combination of the two means that the model cannot leave the board. You can shove the character up to the board edge, but that's it.

[G00dySmiley]

read the description of the board edge.
It is impassible terrain.

Again. The rule states *nothing* about leaving the board. You cannot leave the board unless stated otherwise.

The combination of the two means that the model cannot leave the board. You can shove the character up to the board edge, but that's it.

what page is it on, i would be happy to read it but can't find it in the glossary an keep flippign through sections trying to find it

[Tynskel]

Irrelevant.

It is not a specific definition, but is a description that matches the description of impassible terrain. At which point, one notes that inherently this means that the board edge is impassible terrain, and therefore subject to the same rules. The qualifiers are Flyers and Fall Back moves. Otherwise, a model cannot pass impassible terrain unless explicitly stated they may.

Besides, *any* description of leaving the board is *explicitly* defined. There are other non-voluntary movements that may not leave the board. Example: lifta-droppa. Ramshackle, Mawloc's Death From Below, etc.

[SeattleDV8]

You cant leave the table without permission, that much is true, but it isn't because it is impassable terrain.

Impassable terrain BRB page 90

The rules for impassable terrain cover those areas of the board that warriors physically cannot enter.

If it was impassable Drop Pods would never scatter off of the table.

You have to have permission to leave the table.
Things like Flyers and Deep strikers have this.
The Displacer field would be treated just the same as the Orks Ramshackle and Don't Press Dat rules.
Ork FAQ
Q. If a Trukk suffers a ‘Kareen!’ result, what happens if the random
movement forces it into friendly models or off the table? (p41)
A. The vehicle stops as soon as it comes into contact with
friendly models or the table’s edge.

Q. If a Looted Wagon rolls a ‘1’ for “Don’t Press Dat” what happens
if the forced movement takes them into friendly models, impassable
terrain or off the table? (p54)
A. The vehicle stops as soon as it comes into contact with
friendly models, impassable terrain or the table’s edge.

Notice the table's edge is seperate from impassable terrain.

[G00dySmiley]

You cant leave the table without permission, that much is true, but it isn't because it is impassable terrain.

Impassable terrain BRB page 90


If it was impassable Drop Pods would never scatter off of the table.

You have to have permission to leave the table.
Things like Flyers and Deep strikers have this.
The Displacer field would be treated just the same as the Orks Ramshackle and Don't Press Dat rules.
Ork FAQ

Notice the table's edge is seperate from impassable terrain.

good point on the drop pods, if the board edge was impassible they would never scatter off making them more op than they already are

[Tynskel]

I think these examples are just anecdotal. The board edge acts like impassible terrain, and you must have an exception to cross into it, of which the Drop Pod *explicitly* states so.

[G00dySmiley]

I think these examples are just anecdotal. The board edge acts like impassible terrain, and you must have an exception to cross into it, of which the Drop Pod *explicitly* states so.

they do not at all act like impassable terrain which is why the rules have to specifically state you cannot voluntarily cross them, otherwise they would just add board edge to impassable terrain and be done with it

[Tynskel]

no, you would do exactly what GW has done: write down all the exceptions to impassible terrain applied to the board edge.

[G00dySmiley]

no, you would do exactly what GW has done: write down all the exceptions to impassible terrain applied to the board edge.

it does not say that anywhere. you keep talking about the board edge like there is a ton of rules on it, there are only a few mentions of it. you told me to read the section on board edge and then when it did not agree with you you said it is irrelevant. I am quoting pages and instances of other rules while you say i am wrong, that is not how you convince somebody you are correct on rules. I would be happy to agree with you if you provide the exact page numbers and instances which prove your point, but that has yet to occur

[Tynskel]

no, the rules you are quoting are irrelevant. In every single case that you 'call', it is an *explicit* description on how to leave the board.

None of this helps your case. You can *only* leave the board because the rules state you may. The rules of the board edge, for intent and purposes of 'simplification', act like impassible terrain. They are not precise, but work quite well.

It is very similar to Leadership. It is a type of characteristic, with extra rules. Just like the board edge. It is Impassible Terrain, with extra rules.

[Magpie]

While I would stop short of calling the board edge Impassable Terrain, I do see that to all intents and purposes it kind of is.
It is terrain a model cannot cross so ergo impassable. I do agree however that the board edge is a separate concept to impassable terrain.

However as we discussed earlier there is no specific ruling for this case so you can only go off what applies in other similar situations and the clearest similar example is Tank Shock which is directed to halt 1" from the edge.

As the Orks rules support this I am now 100% that the Displacer Field simply stops at the board edge, kudos to SeattleDV8 for showing us that.

[Tynskel]

wait, no credit for me posting three different rules that don't knock you off board, all involuntary movement?

[Magpie]

wait, no credit for me posting three different rules that don't knock you off board, all involuntary movement?

No, you made me look in the Codex. :p

Mawloc doesn't seem to mention the board edge however.

[Tynskel]

You still don't knock 'em off the board edge. If they have no where to go, then get eaten, anyhow. However, if you think about it, unless you block them with other models, they will not get pushed off the edge, but scoot around the mawloc until they are 1" away. Another example of how the board edge operates like 'impassible terrain'.

[G00dySmiley]

I would disagree with tank shock and ramshackle needed those extra rules because if they were not in there the unit would be off the table and destroyed so they have specific protection from such an action

[Magpie]

I would disagree with tank shock and ramshackle needed those extra rules because if they were not in there the unit would be off the table and destroyed so they have specific protection from such an action

OK but what leads you to that? The problem we have is that nothing says that a unit is destroyed when it leaves the table.

[G00dySmiley]

but nothing says it can't leave the table. so again we are left at what happens when something leaves the table which i think is the crux of the thing

not that it probably matters but fluff wise the things are suppossed to be dangerous

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Displacer_field#.UeXtDm2neHM

[Magpie]

but nothing says it can't leave the table. so again we are left at what happens when something leaves the table which i think is the crux of the thing

Yep for sure. The only thing we can go off is what happens in other situations where a unit could potentially move off the table and in those situations the problem is resolved by stopping at or near the board edge.

[Tynskel]

yeah, every situation has the board be 'impassible' except for Flyers and Fall Back moves.

[Tynskel]

not that it probably matters but fluff wise the things are suppossed to be dangerous

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Displacer_field#.UeXtDm2neHM

Yeah, it is dangerous. Have you used the Displacer Field... sometimes you end up in the middle of your opponent's army...

[Demonus]

I always liked the idea of rolling on the mishap chart :)

[DarkLink]

Yeah, it is dangerous. Have you used the Displacer Field... sometimes you end up in the middle of your opponent's army...

I think he meant that all battles in the future are fought atop tall, perfectly rectangular mesas that have cliffs like a million feet tall, so if you fall off the edge you die.

[Magpie]

I think he meant that all battles in the future are fought atop tall, perfectly rectangular mesas that have cliffs like a million feet tall, so if you fall off the edge you die.

Wouldn't the invul kick in when you hit the bottom and displace you yet again ?

[G00dySmiley]

actually asked the guys who made the call at our shop, for wha tis is worth how they came to a conclution was pg 80 and passengers in wrecked results it says that if a unit cann't be placed it is removed as a casualty. much like disembarking from a wreck in terrain with on vehicle exit if you roll snakeeyes not everybody gets out some are destroyed. is this was the only rulebook reference they could find to not being able to place a model they ruled it destroyed